Latest / Spooky Butt / 14. Interview with the Vampire Perfumer with Rubia Homa

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14. Interview with the Vampire Perfumer with Rubia Homa · Spooky Butt

• speaker-0: Mm. Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I'm Claire, your very fearful host, and welcome to Spookybutt. Today in Spookybut Studio, I am joined by Rabbia Homa. Rabia Homa is a perfumer and lifelong fragrance enthusiast originally from Canada. She started her nose journey at a young age, exploring her mother's fragrance collection, which contained a beautiful mix of designer and traditional perfumes found throughout the world. Rabbia received her formal fragrance making education in Los Angeles at the Institute for Art and Old Faction. From 2019 to 2023, Rabia was appointed board member at the IAO and also participated as a judge for the Art and Olfaction Awards during this same time frame. As an independent perfumer, Rabia has worked on a variety of projects, partnering with brands and organizations to create olfactive experiences, such as being commissioned by the IAO and Dublab to create a unique fragrance to commemorate Prince's purple reign. In 2025, Rabia officially launched her fragrance brand, Huro, which is currently available in Los Angeles and New York City. Rabia Hama, welcome to Spooky Bud. speaker-0: Hi, thank you, Claire, for inviting me to Spooky But. I'm so excited. speaker-1: Right. I'm so excited for this. This is so fun. I do want to kick this off talking about how we met. So this is so cool. because you're I think you might be the first guest on this show that I have met as a result of like Instagram, as a because of this podcast. So at the Missouri Botanical Garden, at the end of September, you gave an evening talk called Vampire Scent Culture. And this was so cool. This was at the Stephen and Peter Sachs Museum, which is this really, really fascinating Victorian museum that's on the grounds of the garden. So this was an interactive presentation, and you walked through like vampire folklore from Romania and beyond. And what I loved about this is that everyone there got to smell essential oils that corresponded with where we were in the presentation. So people were handing out fragrance strips, like the tester strips you get at Sephora, so that we could follow along with the presentation. And it was just, it was so much fun. And I just remember that we were DMing and I said, Hey, I'm coming to your talk. And we got all excited. And then it was so cool that we actually got to meet because this event was absolutely packed. So was this your first time doing an event like this or like the vampire centric event at A public space. speaker-0: I had given a vampire scent talk in Los Angeles virtually, but it was my first official workshop in the vampire stratosphere f in the physical space. And I want to do a quick shout-out and thank thank you to the museum curator Neshka Pfeiffer. She helped organize it. And it was funny because she met me a few years back when I was giving a talk on scent culture in Islam based off of SEN Culture. that I learned and when on my travels to Doha as part of a delegation. And she was she attended my workshop where I gave the history of Islamic sand culture and made some fragrances as well. And we noticed that we had a common friend on Instagram because yes, I'm a Muslim and that, but you know, growing up and being born and raised in North America and traveling around the world and having roots in Pakistan. I have a hodgepodge of many loves, and one of them being the spooky vampires. So moving to Los Angeles in 2016 or 2017 officially, I was visiting in 2016, I befriended a vampire there. And I always loved vampires. So that allowed me to immerse myself in vampire scent cultures and parties, and that was part of a God private club as well, where I had my initial introduction. Not only did we we were in the same building. And Neshka picked up on it and said that we have a common vampire in common who had attended vampire, who has done his own vampire talks at other museums and that. So then we started talking vampire, and she'd be like, How cool it would it be if he did a vampire scent culture talk. So she gave me that opportunity. I think it was like two years in the making and it's already it's been done and it was really rewarding. And to have a full house, I was really happy to see the turnout. speaker-1: Yeah, that's my God, that's so funny. Cause I had no idea that she was into the spooky stuff and that you guys had a quote unquote vampire in common. That's really funny. But speaker-0: Ha ha ha. speaker-1: yeah, it was wow, I didn't know that that was two years in the making because it was it was so cool. And I love the fact that it was interactive because, you know, I had gotten off work for the day and I don't just want to be like talked at, you know, especially in a space that like grand and ornate. So it was just like Perfect. It was perfect weather. It was standing room only. And then also, you guys had written in the event details page that guests are encouraged to wear goth or vampire attire. And people showed up. some people were wearing fangs. I saw someone in a velvet blazer. it was taken extremely seriously. But yeah, it was just, it was a great crowd, great presentation. And I loved smelling all the different essential oils. That was so cool. speaker-0: Yeah, I love that. I love that they all respected that and came out and dressed up in their best attire. speaker-1: Yeah. And I I was surprised because I really like this fragrance that stuck with me the most from like the different fragrance strip samples, or I should say the essential oil, was birchwood tar. I thought I was going to hate it because like I also I don't really like Anise flavored things. Like I think black licorice is, you know, disgusting and whatnot. But like birchwood tar, I don't know, it was just like kind of refreshing almost. But I yeah, I loved it. And I could tell too. Not to get too in the weeds here, but I back when I was in college, I used to work for Lush. So like the Bath Bomb Cosmetics Company. So we were taught, you know, what quality essential oils are. So it was so cool to like, you know, we have scent is this sense that is the strongest like memory jogger. Yeah. So it was crazy because I'm smelling things and I'm like, wait, I remember selling a product that had this, you know, 10 years ago. So yeah, it was it was just great because I could tell that you use really, really high quality ingredients. So it was just it was just such a fun overall evening in general. I just yeah, I loved it. And I hope the Missouri Botanical Garden does more of these. And I think they will just because this was so successful and so popular. So yay, congratulations. speaker-0: Thank you. I hope Neshka's listening to this and but they they have olfactive experiences. I had they had one last year as well. The theme was corn and so it it depends on what the theme is. But I think this year with vampires and the movies and just being around Halloween, it was just perfect timing. speaker-1: Yeah, it was great. And then do you think for vampire scent culture, will this be something that you do again, maybe in a different city? speaker-0: I would love to. So that's something that I am looking into and working on. as you saw, as I mentioned, this took two years in the making. And now that I've delivered it, you know, I I I have an idea and and and depending on I can change the curriculum and how I teach it depending on the space and audience. But I would love to continue to give these talks in in that space in different cities. So I am taking that approach. I was hoping to do something for Halloween, but it just cut it too close. So hopefully next year I'll be able to book more talks such as this because they're very they're very rewarding for me that you know a love that I have of spooky season and fragrances and that others are also interested in that and that people want to tap into their imagination and listen to folklores and the stories, it was so refreshing that we don't have to be serious all the time. You know, it's it's just nice to come out and talk. folklore, but then the beauty, like you said, of memories. And when I went through that when I went through the scent strips and we looked at the different themes of vampirism from serious movies, such as Brand Stoker's Dracula, which was Victorian era historical, but then bringing up the kids and Count Dracula, the Lost Boys, you know, it it it just like you said, scent is your strongest sense when it comes to memory. So tapping into that and you get that childhood whimsy as they say. Whimsy is a huge that vampire whimsy, that imagination. it's just great. I I hope to do more. speaker-1: wonderful. Yeah. Hopefully more of these are on the horizon because they were just it was just such a fantastic night. So I do want to get into your background as a perfumer and how you got started. So previously you had a career in tech. So did you initially start taking courses in old faction in twenty nineteen? Is that when you kind of got started in this? speaker-0: I so I've all I've I have a finance and technology background. So I spent being in Canada, I worked on Bay Street, which is our version of Wall Street, for a couple of years before moving to the States and working on Wall Street for Deloitte and other consulting company. And then working at Silicon Valley, but based out of Los Angeles. I moved to Los Angeles in 2017. And when I was visiting Los a friend in Los Angeles, he has suggested that I He said, if you're gonna make the because I had never been on the West Coast, even in Canada, I've never traveled to Vancouver. So he said, if you're gonna make the move, make sure to check out the city and find things that you would like that would make you want to move here. And so I was looking online at events and found the Institute for Art Null Faction and that they were giving casual workshops. They have art exhibits and they're the ones that run the Art Null Faction Awards as well. But they had a student drop-in class where you don't have to be a professional perfumer. You would just go in. pick five materials, essential oils, and you have a couple of hours to create something. and I took that one class, I'm like, gosh, I really love this. And that helped me get into and I liked the community and the people who attended. And I thought, you know, I think this is it. I would love to on my spare time while working in tech, explore more of these courses and fragrance making. So it started really end of twenty sixteen while I was visiting. And continued to take courses into 2019. And I developed my first fragrance in 2019. And say Louis, that's that's how I became a perfumer. So 2019 is where I officially became my I had my first fragrance. We're gonna go through all of them, but my first fragrance I created was Nomad Sun, where my mentor and teacher said, you know, she smelled and she's You're ready to create your fragrances and go out to the world so do your thing. speaker-1: wow. speaker-0: Dead. speaker-1: that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I was I was looking at the Institute of Art and All Factions website a couple of days ago, just kind of checking it out. And it's it's really great because it does appeal to people who are have never, you know, worked in the fragrance industry, people who aren't perfumers. And I did see that they have a group trip that goes to the Loire Valley in France. And that looks incredible. Cause like Don't get me wrong, a European trip would be fantastic, but it's like I'd I'd love to go somewhere and learn a skill that's very interwoven with, the landscape and the culture. So that place sounds fantastic. you took that first class, you developed Nomad Sun. Did you have to continue taking courses or is it just kind of like up to you, like at the institute? speaker-0: So it's up to you. It's not a formal educational site. It's to give us access to, as they say, it's to give us access to scent culture and to fragrance making. So I would attend classes on setting up your own lab, how to make fragrance accords. So fragrance accords are where you mix different essential oils. For example, a peach, peach doesn't have an essential oil. Peaches are pretty much they're dry. You can't take an oil out of it. But the word accord is where you mix different materials. different materials, some synthetics, some naturals, to smell like a peach. So taking different accord classes, my mentor Ashley Kessler, she runs these classes on accords and there's no certification or anything. So pretty much they don't like to say that because there's no certification and they don't like to say really that it yes, they provide some sort of education, but it's not a formal education. So I could say that I was self-taught. They helped me become a perfumer. speaker-1: okay. speaker-0: Attending their classes. speaker-1: Wow. that's so interesting. Cause yeah, I was kinda thinking was this a four year degree? Is this really intense? But it sounds like it's just choose your own adventure. speaker-0: Use your own adventure and figure out what you like and you play around with a few things. So I attended my make my own workshop and then afterwards I took some of their formal classes, such as how to make a marine accord, how to make the smell of bonfires and how to make a mango accord. they have so many different amazing how how to make greens, how to Yep, there's so many opportunities. And in twenty eighteen, the institute had this program or it was a program or a fun challenge. A three hour challenge where they gave you a theme and I would have we would have three hours. So we'd be given a story or a brief and we would make we'd have three hours to create the fragrance behind it, tell the story, and then I think there would be a vote afterwards on smelling like each other's not an official, but to be like, does this cover the cover the story that we're looking at? And I I don't remember if there's a if we voted on who won or not, but So my first challenge that I did was based off of a poem from France that had to do with an exorcism. I'm just gonna look up what it was called. wow it was the design challenge was possessions of Luden. And it was high then it was highlighted at the 2019 Scent Fair in LA. That was the first Scent fair that the the Institute for Art and All Faction held. So my fragrance was featured there. So I created a fragrance of this exorcism, like when I think about The Exorcist, even watching the movie, and even when they lay out what the pretenses or the setting of this poem, I think about like cool winds, the the stone of the church, dry roses. And so I created a fragrance that had that stone smell to it with dry roses and a little bit of green and a and a dry wood smell. so that I would say would be could be my official fragrance because it ended up being featured even before I released my own. That's where I started. speaker-1: So do you have like a like I guess growing up or whatnot, like did you have a background in art? Because like this creating fragrances, working as a perfumer, like there's definitely an art to this. So like, did you already have maybe like a background in like painting or anything like that that helped you to kind of work like so successfully so quickly as a perfumer? speaker-0: I get I get asked that a lot, just as you were saying you assumed I was in a four-year program officially, but it was just my upbringing. Growing up Pakistani Muslim and part of that part of the culture from that part of the world, our sense of smell is very it's a strong one as to how we eat, the spices we work with, the the scent memory. When I think about North America growing up in Canada, we have our smells. We have the pumpkin spice and we have we have our peppermint for Christmas and we have the blooms in spring, but traveling to the east, to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Doha, their scent culture and and going, you know, going to the mosque for our prayers and that and our rituals that we incorporate, the sense of s smell was developed through there that just came naturally. And also flavor and smell go hand in hand as well. So I've always loved spices and cooking as well. So that kind of transferred over To my sense of smell too. And then growing up with my mom was an avid collector, as you mentioned in my biography. My mom was an avid collector always growing up that, you know, she gotta she had to make sure for every occasion she was gifted a fragrance or her sense of smell, she was always like, Do you smell this, smell that? We would go to the fragrance counters, or when we travel to Pakistan when we're I was young, and I would when we would travel to Pakistan, we would take I would spend four to six months there with my grandparents. exploring scent culture there and everyone it's so common for women to have roses and jasmine during weddings or just casually. So the sense of smell and how we dressed ourselves was very important. So it was growing up around it and knowing what I liked, how to make it. And then I also love fashion. I loved design as well. My mom was and she still is a stylist. She went to a school where they were taught to be a tailor so she knows how to be a tailor. how to knit, how to style and create fashion. So I grew up with a very fashionable mom that introduced me to all of this so it came natural for me. speaker-1: man, that is so cool. Because yeah, it's like you obviously know how different scents play well together. But I think what's really great about your fragrance line is that you're so adept at creating memories and creating a setting. I can smell one of your fragrances and it's just yep, I I know exactly what that is. I am transported. So this is so cool. It's cool that you came into this. Or I don't know, maybe you were like drawn toward it. Or push toward it, I don't know, by the universe, because this is part of your path. So man, what a cool journey. That's incredible. speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: Yeah, of course. so today you work full time as a perfumer, right? speaker-0: I yes, I stepped away from tech and I decided to go fully into fragrance making. It was a now and never. I watch other entrepreneurs and we always say, I mean, tech was a great experience to help me working in corporate to help and see how business, how to strategize, how to be organized. And I would look at other entrepreneurs and be like, gosh, they have their freedom. But being an entrepreneur, you have to wear so many hats I learned. But at the same time it's so rewarding that To bring my fragrances or my ideas to life without any any hierarchies or anyone telling me is it good or not? It's just it's my decision, it's my my feelings of what I'm putting out. And it's it's a really rewarding career choice where I'm putting out what I love and I feel great about. And to find an audience that shares the same love for the fragrances means a lot to me. Along with Because my brand isn't just about I yes, I have my Hudo brand, but as a perfumer I also do these workshops and to meet people like yourself who find them so exciting to attend, it means a lot to me. So I think I chose the right path. That's more meaningful. speaker-1: Yeah. And I love what you said about not having to deal with a hierarchy and you're just direct to consumer. And it's it's just great because I'm getting what you intend this to be, not what like a bunch of layers of different analysts or whatever you want to say, everybody giving feedback and notes and whatnot. And it's like, no, this is exactly what the perfume artist wants you to smell. So that's awesome. So I do have a couple of questions about the vampire community in Los Angeles. Because this was a I think this was maybe my introduction to it was vampire scent culture. So this community, is it more so people who are just fans of the vampire aesthetic and art and that thing and not like like people who are actually aspiring to be vampires? I don't know how else to ask that. speaker-0: I think everybody's level of how, how they what what a vampire means to them is a personal one. For me, being connected, it was through a private goth club where I met the vampire community. But when I attended, it was more events to immerse ourselves in just the culture and the music. speaker-1: okay. speaker-0: And also, for example, so for example, it's a full moon and they would have a folklore or tale about they're like, well, let's manifest. And, you know, my dear friend Patty Negri, who's known as the good witch of Hollywood, she'll do a manifestation or she'll lift the veil and have spirits come in and talk to, you know, if she wants to, if someone's and they said, We want I want to speak to my dad or I want to speak to someone, allows people to speak. And then they have amazing performers and dancers and a great DJ. And it gives you the opportunity to just get away and just dress like a vampire and have a good time. Just a great way to just hang out. And then there's others who I know that I've met who, you know, they're they're part of a different community who do take it really seriously. but for me, I'm more it's just some it's just something fun to do. It's you get dressed up and you hang out with people who like to get dressed up and enjoy the music and immerse themselves in a good time. speaker-1: man, that sounds great because it's making me think of I keep seeing there was this trend on Instagram and it's like the nowhere to wear it party. So people having house parties and it's like I have nowhere to wear this fantastic outfit. So we're just gonna have a house party and people can show up wearing whatever. So that sounds awesome. And I wish I I wish I lived near a vampire community now that you mention that. speaker-0: It's well, the biggest vampire the biggest vampire community as we know is in New Orleans and Anne Rice. She's ha they're having they're having the Anne Rice ball, I think, on the the 30th, and then Halloween is going to be the Endless Nice Vampires from Los Angeles. Every year they have their vampire ball in New Orleans, which is like the biggest and people get their ball gowns. It's maroon or and black only. And then they have the they do a boat tour, ghost tour, they have a whole weekend, few days worth of events to bring everybody together. And it's got a really large following. And they do tours. So you can go to Salem. They had their li a few weeks ago. They were in Salem. I think they did one in Florida. They some occasionally they're in Paris. So if you follow, you can you know you can attend these events. I did mention I'm like we gotta bring them to Saint Louis 'cause there seems to be a vampire community over there. maybe we should have a vampire ball there as well. speaker-1: Yeah. I d I don't know. St. Louis has a lot of like old buildings and like kind of interesting history. So that like I think people who are into old timey things kind of, you know, such as myself, there's definitely, I feel like, maybe an audience for that here. And this is just so cool to hear because when I when I think about like vampire communities like this, I think about like, okay, music, art, film, but I don't think about fragrance. But it makes so much sense that there would be a vampire perfumer that could come out of this. So was there like one piece of content, you know, maybe like a movie or a book that like kicked off your passion for all things vampires? speaker-0: yes. When I was in college, well growing up, my parents, I I think my parents I I don't say that they were really conservative, but they're really big on the type of movies we would watch. So I I wasn't allowed to watch like a rated R movie. And then when I went to college, the first two movies I had to had a chance, I'm like, okay, well, now I'm at that age, and the first two movies I watched were Pulp fiction and interview with a vampire. And both became my favorite movies. I'm like, my God, this is crazy. I've been missing all these movies as a teen. I wasn't allowed to watch. And so Interview with a Vampire was so beautifully done. Tom Cruise, who I never would have thought I had a crush on. I'm like, wow, he's amazing in the in this movie. And Brad Pitt. It's still it's still the top. I haven't watched the show. I haven't had a chance. And people are like, you have to watch the show. And I'm like, I think I'm good with that the classic interview with a vampire and also Bram Stoker's Dracula. I actually watched that at sixteen and I I snuck. Like I I was like watched it with a friend and and I liked that a lot too. I was like, wow, and I and I love canneries too, so that's also up there. So that I would say Bram Stoker's Dracula and Interview with a vampire were really big. And then just growing up and then I didn't think Lost Boy so much, but then Lost Boy over the years, the memory I have of it is live while living in Los Angeles. The Hollywood Cemetery and some of the historical sites would play that movie on the big screen. So I have memories of while living in Los Angeles, watching that on the big screen. So that's kinda like that's become a favorite over time. speaker-1: that's so cool. Yeah. I yeah, Hollywood Forever Cemetery. That's that's really fun how they do those crazy events. But yeah, like Interview with the Vampire and then Bram Stoker's Dracula, like those movies still hold up. I watched Interview with the Vampire last week and then last night I started Bram Stoker's Dracula again, but I only got like 30 minutes into it before I had to go to bed. So I'm gonna once we wrap up here, I'm gonna finish that movie today. Yeah. Right. man, that's yeah, I feel like that's probably the case for a lot of people, those movies and they came out I don't know, it in the same year or within a year of each other. And it was just so transformative for so many people. So yeah. that's that's fantastic. speaker-0: But then I should say the actual start was with crown Count Dracula from Sesame Street. Should make that the main mention. speaker-1: my the count, yes. The count. speaker-0: That was like our coming, you know, coming of age was Interview with the Vampire and Bram Stoker's Dracula, but it all started. Our comfort with learning to count was with Count Dracula from Sesame Street. speaker-1: Yeah, it's he's the gateway to vampirism and goth nightclubs. So that's Alrighty, so for this section of the interview, I do want to talk about your hero fragrances. And so we'll go through each of the fragrances and kind of talk about them, and then I've got some questions and all that good stuff. So I'll read the snippet from your website, the description for each of these fragrances. So the first one to start off with is Nomad Sun. So the description states A scent born from the soul of the wanderer. The one who moves through life guided by curiosity, growth, and an unshakable desire to find meaning. With sparkling notes of lemongrass and ginger, softened by the warmth of vanilla and the quiet depth of light musk, this fragrance evokes sunlit paths, shifting landscapes, and the stillness found between each step. So at the Vampire Scent Culture Talk, you did have each of the Hurrow fragrances there available to test out and smell. And I just remember smelling Nomad Sun and it just it just smelled like a summer adventure. it was it was so cool. Like it genuinely smells like an adventure. I have that written down multiple times because that's what it was. Like it's exciting and hopeful, yet it's still somehow mysterious. Like you don't know what's on the horizon, but you're still so excited to pursue it. So what inspired Nomad Sun? speaker-0: So love that interpretation of it. And I'm glad that I was able to relay that message. Because 2019 was my coming out of, you know, working in tech and live in New York and these corporate jobs. I was always so serious. So moving to LA was my way of being a little being more carefree because growing up being the eldest daughter and being in Canada and and going to school and then corpor and going to work right after, it was always like, I have to be. So serious. And coming to LA is where I actually found, even though it was years later, was finding my freedom. And so 2019 was the year that I decided I was invited to go to Burning Man. And Burning Man, as is like it's a coming of age. It's not a it's not a music festival, but it was a a religious experience. And it's I was so excited because I love music and I love the desert. And so I created a fragrance that I could wear. for that event and also to celebrate my life. And I had also had just read the book The Alchemist as well. speaker-1: okay. speaker-0: So this is also based off of my love of the Alchemist. So I wanted to create a fragrance that felt carefree. And citrus and ginger notes are known for being carefree and happy. And then it has that sexiness of the vanilla musk and there's a little bit of leather because there's an actual material I use called Castorium. Synthetic castorium. Usually it comes from the beaver and it has notes of vanilla and leather in it. so I took it to Burning Man and my friend wore it as well. And it opened doors to New Horizons. When I went to Burning Man, I met someone who who loved the fragrance. He smelt it on my friend and walked over and he goes, Are you the perfumer? And I said, Yes, this is my first fragrance I've created ever for myself. And He then invited me to create a line of fragrances for Nissan at the LA Auto Show. So he rent there was a holl there was a mansion rented out in the Hollywood Hills, and I was the alchemist, and it was for their electric car. It wasn't to sell, but to create fragrances that brought up memories of if you were to drive through the rain or drive by the sea, smell and imagine yourself in this environment and this. Fragrance opened those doors to my official fragrance launching career. And it went well. And then from there, two years later, I was invited to be to lead a delegation to Doha to explore their scent culture. And I shared my fragrances with a group of people that worked as part of the government or even part of the royal family. one of the members, she smelt it and she was like, this reminds me of. my time in Thailand because of the smell of ginger and lemongrass. And that was an honor as well. So I think all these opportunities for me that opened on open later on in life were because of that first fragrance being launched. speaker-1: wow. speaker-0: And it's in line with that whole because I was always told, stay in corporate, it's safe, it's safe for you. If you have your own business, you don't know what the risks are. And once I launched that fragrance, once I put it out there, the 2019, that was my way of also putting myself out there. that I'm not hiding behind a corporate title or anything, like I'm a perfumer, no one knows me. Here's my art. That was one of my first art and sharing it with people was very I was very nervous. but it helped me. With my confidence and putting myself out there more. speaker-1: Man, that's so cool. Cause yeah, I definitely get that need to feel comfortable and the need to kind of hide behind a corporate title and just kind of be, you know, just you know, a cog in the machine of a great big corporation. So that's so cool that Nomad Sun kind of helped get you out of your shell and like what a great way to kick off your perfuming career. Is perfuming? Yeah, perfuming is a word, right? speaker-0: My fragrance making career. For scent making or scent making. speaker-1: Yeah, I just like I said that and I was like, that sounds weird. so how long does it take like I guess like so you were commissioned by Nissan? So like how long did it take you from that commission, getting commissioned in the first place to actually producing the fragrance? Like is that is that a quick process or does this is this something that takes months and months and months? speaker-0: It takes it takes months to create. There were some fragrances because I was I was always experimenting. So I already had what they call a f a scent organ, a fragrance organ of materials to play with. But I had, I think, about two two months to create the fragrances to smell for that event. Creating a fragrance to actually sell, it depends because the the art of fragrance making, it it is an art. So it could take months to years to even a few minutes depending on what is it that you're trying to create. speaker-1: Mm. Okay, wow. that's so interesting. Alrighty, so next up we have your fragrance called Kawa. So kawa is a memory steeped in soul, a tribute to the beauty of being seen and the kind of connection that lingers long after the moment has passed. A quiet moment in a busy market where time slowed and something unspoken passed between two strangers. Amid the hum of the market, surrounded by scents of tobacco, incense, and spice, a merchant extended an invitation to sit, to share a cup of kawa, and to simply be. Bright notes of bergamot and grapefruit mirror the spark of first eye contact. The depth of patchouli and musk recall the worn leather of his jacket, a hint of cardamom, and green tea evokes the warmth of sipping kawa in between conversation. So I did smell this at, of course, at the Vampire Scent Culture event, but I also got to check this out in person at Stele, Stele speaker-0: Estelle, you went to you went to New York and smelled it? Very good. speaker-1: Yes. So I was in New York the first week of October and I was able to make it down to lower Manhattan to check out this great independent perfume shop. so I was again able to smell it, but then I did wear it and I wore it out for the rest of the evening. And what's great is that it just wears beautifully and you can smell every single note and they all play together really, really well, like they work in harmony really well together. and then what I noticed is as time goes on, some of the other scents fade. And that was the same case at Lush, when using really, really high quality essential oils. So for me, I think the scent that stayed on the longest for my, I guess, molecular makeup was the tobacco, which was really cool because the scent evolved as time moved on. So I was just wondering, how how do you get it? To where the fragrances are so balanced and work together and just complement each other. Cause it's not just hey, this smells great the second you put it on. It's, an hours long experience. speaker-0: That's a good question. I think it's the same as the way I cook. it's so kava kava specifically when I made that, I remember there was a lot of testing on the food realm. So kava, that story you're saying, is based off of my own love story of meeting a gentleman in the marketplace and he invited me for a cup of kava, which means green tea. and so I made some green tea with saffron and cardamom. And I remember in my kitchen smelling the notes and I had a gas fire stove and I singed my hair trying speaker-1: no. speaker-0: to smell the notes of it and then trying to translate it to the sense of smell, how I could take what I'm drinking and make it into that sense of smell. And then also how do I bring the smell of the mountain and his jacket all intertwined in this fragrance? And When it comes to the wear, I I ensure that I I use quality materials and ingredients that that work well together and contrast well whether they contrast while they're work together to balance it all out. You can't have beautiful materials. You have to work with a little bit of ugly. So there's one material that I used in there called Indole. Indole is in white florals and it's a fragrance that smells of decay. And But when I put it in there with other materials such as patchouli and musks to make the smell of sand, it ended up smelling like that sand and it it brightened up other facets of the fragrance. speaker-1: that's right. I remember we got to smell a sample of Indol at the event. And that was so cool because it's like, yeah, like maybe this doesn't smell great by itself, but when you mix it into a recipe, it can help elevate other notes. And it's cool because, you know, sometimes I mean this could be like a metaphor for everything, but sometimes, you know, something quote unquote ugly, like once you blend it in with something else, it can just make it more dimensional. And make it more beautiful. speaker-0: And even as the saying goes, that for you to know when you're doing well, you have to go through the bad to appreciate the good. speaker-1: Exactly, yeah. Exactly. All right, so the next fragrance we have is Rain Noir, and the description for this is the rain has softened, gray light spills through tall windows, casting shadows across marble and stone. Inside, time slows beneath high ceilings, cool and vast, skin meets skin in quiet rhythms, the faint pulse of musk weaving through the still air. Juniper's crispness blends with smoky myrrh, while suede and bergamot trace the edges of touch. A sanctuary of stone and desire where every breath lingers like a whispered promise. So what blew me away about Rain Noir at the Vampire Scent Culture event is that it literally smells like fresh air after a rainstorm. Like it it captures that snippet in time, which is completely incredible. Like I've never smelled anything like that. Because you know, you see like laundry detergent or cleaners or whatever that's like Rain clean or rain fresh and it's you know, it smells like disgusting and chemically, but rain more just blew my mind. So like what am I smelling exactly that makes it smell like, you know, post rainstorm? speaker-0: I use materials that have the the juni the smell of juniper and the different facets of juniper has some coolness, yet some density as well in it, along with the smell of suede. So essential oils or synthetic materials that are used aren't necessarily one-dimensional. So there are materials that are used in there that have that rain aspect of it. So I used one material that has the rain aspect, yet it still smelled it smelled like wet. skin. So it's your lover's skin. speaker-1: Wow. speaker-0: So but then putting in myrrh, myrrh has a little bit of that smokiness. And when it's in when it's next to when that myrrh is next to the suede material, it brings in some of that warmth. Yet after rain smell as well. So it's just how the materials all work together that are in there. speaker-1: wow. Yeah, just you're able to take all these different ingredients, combine them together, and then get this setting, which is so cool. And it's I don't know, it kinda like if we're thinking about like what memories does this evoke or what images, it what I have written down is it smells like spending a weekend at a vast estate in a rainy European country with a lover of your choice. I literally wrote that down. speaker-0: exactly what it was for me. yeah. It was it wasn't even a specific lover. It was just my interpretation of the perfect lover. Perfect scene would be. So my own imagination. at that time, yes, I you know, of course every you know, i like I said, 2019 around that time it was being open to open to experiences, but my personal wish of gosh, what would be that romantic scene? That beautiful grayness outside, but the inside with your lover with that warmth and smokiness and this the the their taste still on your lips and on your skin and they leave, but the traces are still there with the contrast of and I always love like October right now, just the weather and the smells and when it rains against the wet the wet earth. I love that. speaker-1: wow. speaker-0: That was my interpretation in that fragrance. speaker-1: that is so cool. Yeah, it comes through 100%. Alrighty, so the next fragrance that we have is How Light. So the description for this is the ocean whispers in salt and shadow. Cool waves meet dark skies, stones worn smooth by time, a quiet moment where breath slows and clarity rises. Bright bergamot and neuroli sparkle like sea spray, blending with driftwood and fresh ocean air. Soft mineral notes and musk ground the scent, balancing lightness with depth. So what I loved about Howl Light Me is that it's a bright, clean smell. And it was something that seems like it would be great for daytime into evening wear. it's something that would be, wonderful in the daytime. But if you wore it in the evening, it's I don't know, maybe it like brings out the best of both times of the day. speaker-0: I y y you're correct. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's a it's a beautiful day into evening fragrance and especially I have friends who who were who tell me that they live by the beach and they love the smell and it reminds them of growing up along the beach. but then also for me it's also a dark fragrance as well and it's perfect for the fall growing up in the maritime, so Nova Scotia. I think about the dark waters in the morning just before the sun comes you know sunrise. So think about the light streaming through along the stones, but then the water still cle still w it's still cold and people haven't gone into the water yet. So it's still fresh, cool, and very intimate. You're you feel like you have that space to think about and connect with the universe. It's just you and that water and on the pier. and that was my child growing up in Nova Scotia, my memory. And how light is actually a stone that you find along the waters and Nova Scotia, Morocco, and other parts of the world. And how like it it's a positive meaning. If you wear the bracelet or the stone, it's to help you with memory and help you get over depression and bring in positivity and to manifest. So this fragrance is for those who are in their own thoughts and trying to bring the best of themselves. Similar to, I think, throughout all the stories that the book The Alchemist and my own personal stories, it's it's about the brand itself, Hudo is about creating your own path. And that how late is one of those stories. speaker-1: that's so cool. Cause yeah, my next question was going to be like, hey, isn't there a mineral called howlite? But that's fascinating that, you know, I didn't realize that howlite was in Nova Scotia. I thought that this was something that was maybe in the Middle East, North Africa, that sort of thing. So that's so cool that, you know, you take a really well-known mil mineral. And in today's day and age, you know, a lot of people are into minerals and crystals and that sort of thing. And it's wonderful that you were able to give your interpretation of it. in a fragrance. So it's like a multi-sensory experience. how light is a beautiful mineral. And then here's what you think it would smell like and what the memories and feelings associated with it are. So that's that's awesome. I want to smell it again. Like I need I needed to have like a sample set here next time. Next time for sure. Alrighty. So the next fragrance we have is one that is going to be released very, very soon. It is your gothic vampire-inspired fragrance. So this one is called Mambra Soulaman. And so the scent profile for this is a rich blend of incense, burnt ember, leather, dry woods, velvety saffron, creamy sandalwood, hedeon, and spiced citrus. And so the quote that I saw about this one is not for exclusivity, for your safety. Be careful who you let in. This is so cool. And so I know during the vampire scent talk, you mentioned the story behind this fragrance. would it be okay if you shared the inspiration for this here on Spooky But? speaker-0: There's many inspirations. so the creating a vampire fragrance, the story behind it is Mambre Soulema means members only. So as I was part of the Members Only Goth Club. So the story of it was that I knew someone when I moved to Los Angeles, a friend of mine told me about this private club and said that you probably won't get into this club. I was like, why wouldn't I? And they didn't know that I had that background or interest. And they're like, you gotta really be dressed a certain way, look a certain way, and to get in. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna try. And so I got dressed up in all black and went down and I was in right away. And I was no problem. And I met a great community there. That's where I met like met some amazing people, including my friend Patty Negri, and the vampire community and the folks from there as well. And many other amazing people. So yeah, that's where that story yes, that's the inspiration behind Mambre Sulema meaning members only. And when we talk about when you're a vampire, the story is or the folklore is that a vampire can only come in if you let them if if you say yes. So when you watch the Lost Boys and other movies, they say, Can I come in? Like 'cause they can't. Even wha what's that show? I love that show and I can't what we do in the shadows. speaker-1: Right, yeah. speaker-0: Then two, I I think that there was a scene where one of them is like, you have to let me in, dummy. say yes, you c you can come in. I can't just come in. So yeah, Mombre Suleima is an homage to that. So I think it's perfect for a vampire fragrance itself. And when I think about my time there and we performed a lot of rituals around the full moon or certain times of the year that had a representative of like a vampire folklore of a goddess of some kind that brought in positive manifestations. So that's the story behind Mambray Solima, yes. speaker-1: that's awesome. Cause I I didn't even think about the like you have to, you know, you have to ask for an invitation as a vampire. I that didn't even make a connection in my mind because I thought Mambre Souliman, I thought it was literally just, this is, you know, about getting into like a really cool vampire club and it's not also about like that massive piece of vampire folklore, which is they have to be invited in. You can only you can only go into a or what should I say? You could only cross a threshold. If you're invited. That's awesome. That's so cool. speaker-0: And I love vampires. This was even before I connected with the vampire community. So when I did meet the vampire community, I remember my friend Sebastian when he would say, he would invite me. So it was during the pandemic that we were hanging out a lot and he's like, Come to my vampire event. I like, Pfft, you know. And he's like, Why? And he's like, Why not? It's so fun, you know. I was like, you know, it's I I don't 'cause I I felt bad. I'm like, I have to be serious all the time. But yeah, they and he invited me into that space and It w it was great. I had I had a great time. I had a great time and great music and events. So highly recommend the New Orleans Ball and that and and yes, this fragrance is this fragrance celebrates my time in the vampire community. But yeah, I I I realized I realized that even before even before meeting the vampire community that I was already in it because of all the movies and the folklore and that. So it just it just maze it 'cause I'm like, Am I a vampire? He's like, You're a vampire speaker-1: that's so fun. Yeah, that's so great when it's like you finally find your niche and it's like you've I guess maybe subconsciously been working towards it or the universe has been guiding you and then it's like, ta-da, here are all these other people who, you know, are just like you and you get to have this like super, super fun and well-dressed community. How wonderful. speaker-0: Ha ha. speaker-1: So what is next for Hurrow fragrances? Like I know you had mentioned at the event that you're maybe looking to have an e-commerce site so that folks can purchase these online. Do you have any plans for maybe home fragrances, candles, anything kinda like that in the near future? speaker-0: Well, I'm still I'm still new. I'm I'm a one person I'm a one one person show. I I do wanna if if if they listen, thank thank the community and the team that helped my brand come out. There's no way I could have released this brand on my own. But but we're all it's a very it's a very female independent brand. that I have help with my distribution and that. So when I have the revenue and When I expand more than hopefully I can bring in candles, but for now it's on fine fragrances. speaker-1: very cool. Yes, I am such a big fan and I want to smell these again and again and again. And I remember at the at the event, I was kind of standing there like an idiot afterwards because I I was smelling the samples of each of these fragrances. And then I was like, shit, there are people in line who are like needing to smell these too. So I was like, god. So but yeah, I just wanted to point that out because these scents are addicting. They're so well balanced, they're so interesting too. And it's I love just the independent nature of it and the fact that it's not like mass produced, sickeningly sweet fragrances. there's there's so much depth and so much interest there. So I I think the best is yet to come for Hurrow fragrances. speaker-0: Thank you, Claire. That really means a lot. And and I didn't realize that you had such a strong olfactive sense of smell and your experience working a lush. So to hear your take and you talking about this, I'm really excited. I wasn't sure if we were just going to talk about spooky things, but you really know your fragrance background and to hear your experience and passion for it, it means a lot that we did connect and that we're telling these stories and that you can relate to them and that you appreciate them. It's awesome. Yep. Your support. speaker-1: Of course. Yeah. And it's it's just funny because I learned a lot working at Lush, but I it was more about how to work with, interact with people in the world. So it's cool to have this come back. Cause again, that, scent to memory connection. And then I'm like, wait, I remember how to do this. And I remember taking classes and trainings and whatnot about this. So it's a cool like itch to scratch. And I'm definitely I'm gonna start looking into like the Institute for Art and Old Faction and see. If they have stuff that I can do. Okay. speaker-0: virtual classes so for sure they do have virtual classes and workshops so check them out yeah I recommend and I I don't and well St. Louis I I saw that there there are some there's a fragrance group or scent group out there. Yeah I I I don't recall the name at the moment but I can forward it to you. There there is a St. Louis fragrance meetup group where they swap fragrances and smell samples and talk about scent. So maybe something worth joining in your Town. speaker-1: Very cool. Yeah, I would love that. Alrighty, so we have made it to the point in the show where you share the spooky stories that you have brought with us tonight. speaker-0: let me think. There's so many stories. but one of them is related to St. Louis. I think as you saw the gardens and the Victorian, that the I think it's Henry Shaw, who's the founder of the of the gardens and the museum and who did a lot for the city of St. Louis, his mausoleum b you know, being there, which is a little creepy for me, you know, it sets that whole vibe, that whole gothic vibe, like the way the gardens and the museum itself looked. and the houses around it as well looked really cool. and there seemed to be a lot of history with the old architecture and that. And so the place that I was staying at across the street, I believe, was haunted. wow I actually believe it was haunted. I could not sleep. I felt like someone was watching over me. I would keep the TV on. I would keep the TV on and I'd stay up late. If my door was closed, I would wake up at three in the morning like, I'm being washed and then have open the door and then have the hallway light on. It was it was spooky for me being there. speaker-1: wow. So was the high was the hallway light it was off and then it was turned speaker-0: I just felt like there was a presence there of sorts. And I I've working in technology and in finance, I was a consultant. I traveled around the US and stayed at different hotels and places, no problem. But St. Louis, there is this dark feeling of spirits roaming the streets. I and then I saw later that they do offer ghost tours. They did last year. I don't know about this year, but the Missouri Botanical Gardens offers go to ghost tours. And there is also this lovely lady that I met the second day who came and she she goes when she introduced herself she goes did you feel the spirits here and I'm like yes I did okay so I'm not crazy speaker-1: my God. Yeah, that makes sense. Cause like Henry Shaw and like the botanical garden, they were the whole thing was built like I think in the 1850s, if not, you know, maybe earlier. and then that the surrounding neighborhood is absolutely gorgeous. You know, all the homes that kind of face the garden and the nearby park. But yeah, I it makes total sense that the botanical garden would be haunted. I wonder if Henry Shaw is out and about roaming around, but he did I mean, he passed away so long ago. Maybe his presence isn't as strong. speaker-0: There was just there was just something there that I could feel, yeah. speaker-1: wow. So was it like were you staying at an Airbnb? speaker-0: It was so so the so the museum owns a couple of houses for artists and residencies over there. So speaker-1: cool. speaker-0: So I was staying I was staying at one of the residences and it was a beautiful it mind you it's beautiful. Inside was beautiful and had some vintage things going on in there. But the moment I entered, I'm like, there's something in here. kept the basement door closed. There's a second bedroom that kind of like creeped me out. I'm not gonna keep that closed. speaker-1: wow. speaker-0: But yeah, there was just something there. And I I yeah, there's that and I usually I'll usually feel something. And being in Hollywood, there's a lot of haunted spots spot spots there as well. I live down the street from the Hollywood Roosevelt, that's where like Marilyn Monroe spirit and other spirits roam and speaker-1: Wow. speaker-0: and then being part of being part of the vampire community and as I mentioned, my friend Patty Negri, who's like the good witch, she would do these haunted walks and that and bring in spirits and that. So You would get a feeling around it. So I was never like, I'm f I would be like, yeah, it's fine. I'm totally fine. it was nothing. But in the Missouri where I was in St. Louis, I felt it. Not like, this this is all this is haunted for sure. speaker-1: I man, I kinda wanna look into this. I wanna ask around and see like, okay, have other people had a spooky experience like in one of these rent rentals, I guess. speaker-0: Or just just in the area, just just in the gardens itself. There must be if they have a if they have a haunted walk there, there must be for sure something going that that was mentioned or something. speaker-1: Right. And I this is, unfortunate but true. But Henry Shaw was a slave owner as well. speaker-0: That was brought up. speaker-1: Yeah. And he was he was extremely wealthy. So I I am not sure if the enslaved people are buried on the grounds of the garden. I have no idea about that. it could be the case and maybe that can be contributing to some of the activity, but I'm, you know, I'm not affiliated with the botanical garden, so I'm not really sure, but I it could potentially be. A cause. so I do have a question. So did spooky experiences in your life start happening more frequently as soon as you kind of got involved in the vampire community in LA? Or has everything just been kind of this has it been at like the same rate throughout your life? speaker-0: I think it's been the same rate throughout my life. I had an experience. as I mentioned, I grew up in Nova Scotia and I had an experience when I was a kid. I have a little bit of an intuitive empathetic a little bit of a psychic feeling background that I lean into that, you know, when I'm listening to signs of the universe, it ends up things happen that people are like, How did that happen? Or that kinda opens doors, you know, we mentioned how my brand itself and how if you have an open mind you just let the universe lead you and sometimes they can be haunting haunt universal ways. But when I was younger though, I've always loved haunted movies and that, but when I was younger living in Nova Scotia, I had an incident I had an incident that happened. so I'm the eldest of of five kids and I went up we were we always watched movies in the basement and it wasn't in ground. It was kinda like in the middle, you could still see a window to outside, but we were sitting there watching movies and then I had to get my sister, my baby sister's milk, so she's on my hip. And I go up to the kitchen and I was warming up her milk and I was just playing with her. And out of the corner of my eye, I see something that looks like my brother. But like you would hear him cut if if he's gonna be there, I w would have heard him following me up the stairs and into the kitchen. It just it appeared. And out of the side of my eye, the smile was not his smile. I'm like, is that my I wasn't hadn't looked over yet and then when I looked I jumped and when I looked again he was gone. But he's he was by my shoulder. How do you just not be there afterwards? speaker-1: man. speaker-0: That always stuck with me and I had my sister and I was like, my God. She was only one and a half. And I'm like, my God, what did I just see? I'm like, that can be my brother. There's no way. that always stuck with me. And then I mention I mentioned she when we had to reschedule. I was telling my mom that we're gonna be doing a spooky talk and I have to come up with something about hauntings or of the unknown and And she goes, Did you know that Nova Scotia was really haunted? And I'm like, I did not, Mom. She's like, Yeah, all our friends would tell us about the haunting haunting stories. And she said, Yeah, so because and you had asked, is it because of the Titanic? So I looked further into it. So the Titanic, when it was sinking, the vessels, the the ships from Nova Scotia went out to bring the bodies and they were buried in Nova Scotia. speaker-1: that's right. speaker-0: So by the bridge, my mom was saying there's a bridge there and that's where a lot of you see a lot of ghosts. And at a certain time, their their friends were like, don't go out at a certain time because the spirits roam like and they had and and they were well to do. There were doctors and lawyers and stuff and they were like, This town is haunted. Like we've seen it. Don't go out at this time. You're gonna hear some strange noises. You're gonna s you know, feel like is there like a war going out outside of sorts because there are soldiers, you know, and with the Titanic of that era, you hear that the sounds and voices. foot footsteps. speaker-1: man. speaker-0: And so I'm like, okay, well, yeah. But you told me that I'm like, 'cause that always stuck in my mind, that story. Yeah. speaker-1: man. Yeah. And that makes sense too, because I feel like seaside towns are just very haunted and there's so much history there. And then the ocean is really interesting for spiritual activity and all of that. But I'm curious. So the story about your brother, your not brother, did you confront him about that or does he know this story? speaker-0: He he knows about it and he was but and and when I I jumped and I went down, he was just sitting there watching TV and hanging out with my other brother, like laughing and watching TV. And I'm like, There's no way he could have gone from one room to the other that fast and I would have heard his feet and I did not. speaker-1: man, what do you think that was? speaker-0: It was a spirit so I believe in culturally, so we believe and I don't know if you know the stories of in Islam we have there's another so we we believe in you know angels and humans were made of clay and then there are djinns that are made of flameless fire. There are another and djinns are shapeshifters. and we also believe, at times we have, when they say, we're bringing a spirit, well, is it a spirit or is it a djinn pretending to be a spirit? It's just another it's like they could be a demon. They're good they're good jinns and they're bad jinns. so some are demonic, some aren't. So it could have been a djinn. But there's a whole subculture, there's a whole subculture in the Middle East and South Asia, India that believe in jinns. And the stories behind them. it's not necessarily just Muslims, but just like ever all Abrahamic religions and non like from that side of the world. we have folklore behind that. speaker-1: Wow, that's fascinating. I need to look into that because I I've heard I have European ancestry. I grew up in St. Louis. And so I've heard of doppelgangers. But a doppelganger, I think, is like you don't see a I think you see a doppelganger of yourself. You don't see one of a different person. that's I could be t completely wrong, but I think the folklore go goes that if you see a doppelganger of yourself, that's like a bad omen and you're gonna die soon. But I could be completely wrong about that. But wow. I'll definitely have to look into the the folklore surrounding the gin and all of that. That's so interesting. speaker-0: J I N N. So they have folklore like if you after the sunset, if you walk under a tree, you can get possessed. So it could tie your hair back. speaker-1: wow. speaker-0: Like tie back. Don't whistle after don't whistle after the sun sets because you you're calling the devil or you're calling a negative entity. speaker-1: that's fascinating. Has anyone else in your immediate family encountered a djinn before, or was it were you just the lucky one? speaker-0: yeah, so there's a lot of folklore in Pakistan growing up, growing up about hauntings and like we said, small towns and that and especially ancestral, like really ancient civilization towns. They have a lot, like Jensei believe the capital, like they have a capital city apparently. Mount Kokov or K2 is my as the folklore goes, like in the mountains is where they're where they all hang out, apparently. But they're also if you look up stories of King Solomon and that they talk about that he had a djinn. that he had a djinn army and that he could communicate with them as well. So there's a lot of folklore behind it on that side. So that's also something I would be interested in giving talks on djinns and like the super natural from the east. speaker-1: that would be fascinating. Yeah. And like having maybe developing fragrances around that. Because that's so cool. speaker-0: Ha ha ha. speaker-1: And it's folklore that's just, I mean, it's folklore that probably predates, you know, Christianity and like Western civilization. So that's that is fascinating. wow. Well, this has been awesome. It has been great talking to you. At this point in the show, I like to ask if the guest has any last words or any parting thoughts they'd like to share. speaker-0: my parting thoughts are always keep your mind open. You don't know what's on the other side. If you open yourself up to universe, the signs will come come to you. I think that's my biggest, biggest thing. Something spooky. yeah, always ask permission, always ask permission to be let in. speaker-1: I love that. Yeah, absolutely. In speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: both the physical realm and like the spiritual realm, we always ask for consent. my God, that's perfect. Wonderful. Rabia, it has been such a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to be here. And on that note, we can end with a spooky goodbye. speaker-0: Goodbye. Goodbye. speaker-1: Thank you for listening to this episode of SpookyButt. Music by Drew Mantia. Artwork by Lauren Seely. Listen to SpookyButt on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Please be sure to like, rate, and subscribe. Follow Spookybutt on Instagram at Spookybutt Podcast. Need to make contact? Send us an email at spookybutpodcast at gmail.com. We'll see you on the other side. Goodbye.