Latest / Wellness in Today's World / Ep. 21: "Guilt Free": Breaking the Cycle of Excessive Guilt

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Ep. 21: "Guilt Free": Breaking the Cycle of Excessive Guilt · Wellness in Today's World

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Welcome to "Wellness in Today's World," the podcast where we talk about wellness,
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psychology, and everything in between.
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I'm your host, Debra Kawahara.
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And with each episode, we have thoughtful conversations about how to live well.
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Today, I am joined by Jennifer Reed,
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author of "Guilt Free," to talk about why guilt shows up in our lives
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so powerfully and how to tell the difference between guilt that guides us
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as opposed to guilt that quietly drains us.
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We'll explore the difference between adaptive guilt and excessive guilt,
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how socialization and gender roles shape our expectation and what
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we feel responsible for, and the four major areas where excessive guilt tends
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to show up. More importantly, we'll talk about what people can
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do to address excessive guilt while remaining caring,
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engaged,
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and connected. Jennifer, welcome to the podcast!
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I'm so glad you're here today.
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I'm really excited to be here.
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This is such an important area.
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I'm so thrilled to be able to speak about it.
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Wonderful. Well, let's get started.
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So first, I actually wanted just to talk before we get into the book,
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what made this such a compelling topic for you to focus on?
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Well, it was a problem that I was trying to solve both professionally with
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so many women, in particular, in my psychiatry practice,
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but also personally in my own life as a busy working mom who just perpetually felt
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like I was falling behind or I wasn't doing enough.
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Everything I'd add to my plate,
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it didn't help that feeling and it just was starting to get more more difficult.
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And when I started to think, how can I help patients with this?
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How can I think about this differently?
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I didn't find many answers. I think
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Mm-hmm.
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it's, it feels like a very kind of nebulous emotion.
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There wasn't even that much kind of research directly on this.
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And so I really set out to figure it out so that I could take what feels very
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complex and try and simplify it enough for us just to get started and move away from
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that feeling.
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So both professionally as well as personally,
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this became
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Mm-hmm.
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kind of a question for you of how do we address this?
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And I know you make a differentiation between adaptive guilt
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and excessive guilt. So I wanted you to be able to kind of describe the differences.
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Well, I think evolutionary biology and psychology is so interesting.
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And I wanted to figure out, is guilt something that we've just always experienced?
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And if so, why? We tend to hang on to things that are somehow helpful
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to us over these many years. And when I looked at the research there,
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it was about interpersonal guilt,
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or this guilt in relationship or interaction with others.
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It really is a social emotion.
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The benefit of it,
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in specific situations, is that it actually says,
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"Hey, this happened and I'm part of that.
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I feel awful because I care about you.
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I don't want you to feel badly.
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And I actually want to try and fix it,
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make a repair, make an apology." And so guilt is adaptive when it's very specific
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and it's addressing a specific problem.
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It's kind of like the difference between constant anxiety and,
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say, fear about something specifically right in front of you,
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right?
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So the adaptive guilt, we don't want someone to never feel any guilt because that
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would be sociopathic, right? "I hurt you and I don't care." That's certainly
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not what we want for people. But the maladaptive guilt that I'm writing about
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is just this kind of broad generalized sense of "I'm getting things wrong.
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I'm failing. I'm not doing enough even though I seem to be doing more
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and more." And that is very different because as you said earlier,
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it's very draining
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because it's really a heavy burden,
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especially on women.
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So I really hear the adaptive guilt being that part of us that we have empathy,
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that we can understand our impact on others,
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but then that it can go to the excessive guilt of where it's starting to drain us,
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harm us, hurt us, both maybe personally as well as interpersonally.
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So how can someone
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kind of tell when the guilt is helpful and when it has kind of gone overboard,
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let's say, to the excessive guilt area?
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Well, I think part of it is, what do we notice about our sort of self-talk,
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if you will? Are we using a lot of hyperbole?
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A lot of, "I never do x, y,
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and z," or "I'm always making this mistake," or "I really should,"
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a lot of "shoulds" coming up, can give us
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Mm-hmm.
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that information. And also, that question I would ask women in practice,
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"OK, tell me, if you're feeling guilty,
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tell me what you did wrong."
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Mm.
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And they really struggle to come up with a specific thing.
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It was multiple things, right?
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They could list 20 things they thought they did wrong that day.
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So it wasn't specific. So in that way,
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catching yourself being really critical,
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feeling like this is occurring across all these aspects of our lives,
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similar to what it can be like for someone who's struggling with clinical
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depression. We know guilt is one of our sort of SIG-E-CAPS,
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like key question and symptoms we ask about.
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But that feeling seemed to be happening to so many women,
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even those who weren't
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in a current state of clinical depression.
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You know, what was surprising to me when I was reading the book,
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even looking at countries in which we think that there's egalitarian
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or more acceptance in terms of the traditional feminine roles
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per se, you know, in terms of keeping
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care of the house or ~ child rearing.
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And even then you kind of showed that women still had this guilt that
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they were holding.
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Yeah, that was so interesting.
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These were all Westernized countries,
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so it was a very, very specific area.
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And these were case studies. But I was struck,
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especially by Sweden. I think the Scandinavian
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Yeah.
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countries, we think of this sort of aspirational,
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very much care for mothers, have long maternity leave.
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There's a lot of child care support paid for by the government.
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But I was so surprised, because even that mom interviewed,
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right, still said, ~
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Mm-hmm.
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"Oh, I feel guilty all the time.
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I feel guilty that
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I didn't pick my child up early from this high-quality free childcare
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or that I didn't choose the perfect one that was going to be best for them."
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And it just shows how pervasive this emotion is,
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and it's why I think there have been people interested in this idea
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in other countries. This is not just a US phenomenon.
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Yeah, and to me, and you speak a lot about it in your book,
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is about socialization and how pervasive it is in terms of how
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we think about gender roles, how we think about,
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what you were saying, the "shoulds," or "how am I supposed to," you know,
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"what are my expectations?"
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What socialized patterns or messages do you think are still embedded
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in our cultures and our societies that lead to this excessive guilt patterns that
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we're seeing, you know, across many people?
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Yeah, socialization is so powerful.
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And I could simplify it and just say,
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what are we taught? And also, what are we praised for?
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Because we learn. We're good learners.
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Mm-hmm.
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We are great students. We learn,
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what is it I need to do from early childhood on up in order to
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get praise or attention or support or love?
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So this drives us. And so we're being taught.
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And it's not just like, "I should have ignored that message." No,
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this was a
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powerful frame
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Mm-hmm.
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that taught you how to exist in a woman's-
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a girl's and then woman's body.
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So things like expecting to have this idea of a maternal instinct.
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I mean, yes, we all have this drive to reproduce and kind of spread our genetics,
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but I think maternal instinct has been co-opted into the sense that
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we should want to take care of everybody all the time in
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Mm-hmm.
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a really selfless,
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kind of exhausting way as opposed to something more focused.
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And so I think that's sort of used against us in a sense of,
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well, you probably enjoy being the young girl who was always asked
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to be the babysitter of other siblings or told she needed to take care
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of someone else or talk to them because they seemed down and she needed
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to cheer them up. Or even that she would come across that she had it
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all kind of figured out, was doing everything perfectly.
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That was how she achieved and was able to get ahead.
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So these are powerful messages that are still very much ongoing.
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If you imagine who in the household should be doing this role,
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for example, if you were interviewing young children,
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they would still, less than they used to,
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but still categorize these in our more traditional gender roles.
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And so we have a ways to go to really shift those.
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You know, and what it made me think about is ~ during the pandemic,
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when families were in the household together,
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because kids were not going to school,
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people were working from their homes because we were isolating,
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I heard lots of moms saying,
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"I'm trying to work, but then also trying to situate the kids.
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I'm having to cook." And this is when you saw those gender roles really
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being put on the women. And, you know,
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~ I know in literature and scholarship that they talk about "the second shift,"
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~ how oftentimes women find themselves...
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Yes, it's very fulfilling to have a profession.
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But then I have to go home and I'm still doing all of these things that
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are traditionally assigned to women or females.
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Mm-hmm.
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And so
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"the second shift" we often talk about.
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So I wanted you to talk about kind of how guilt shows up across the genders,
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particularly for women and girls.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think the pandemic is a great example.
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And that was certainly a time where some of these ideas were coming to me
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in my own guilt, because it was sort of an extreme example,
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I think, of the isolation that women experience in trying to work
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and parent and maybe care for elderly parents of their own.
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This sense of we no longer really have this village of support.
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We certainly don't have the governmental funding for child care or elder care that
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I think we should for the health of all of us.
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But we don't have the community connection and centering like we maybe used
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to have when some of these roles were more clear,
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but at the same time limiting for women.
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Mm-hmm.
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So I think that was an example where we're truly cut off from any support,
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even some that we'd been able to cobble together over the years prior.
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And I heard so many women, you know,
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they were on social media
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seeing someone else who was learning how to make sourdough or using this time
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to get in great shape or become a yoga instructor over video.
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There was this sense that, "Not only should I be surviving this,
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I should be thriving
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Mm-hmm.
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and learning new things and putting myself out there and growing." And
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so I think that we've sort of internalized this belief that if we're not perfect,
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if we're not getting it right,
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if we're not able to handle all these tasks at home and work,
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that somehow it's our fault. And that's where that guilt comes in.
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We've done something wrong. And in this case,
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it's like, "I can't, I'm not Superwoman." Of course not,
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you're human. But I think we really push back on having human experiences.
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And I think society is very happy to keep us in that mindset.
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Because what does it do? It keeps us busy.
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It keeps us providing a lot of free labor,
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right? A lot of free caretaking.
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And it keeps things moving, but at women's expense.
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And you know, you have come up with this "guilt equation";
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what I like about it is it very much just clearly lays
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out how this excessive guilt manifests.
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And so I want you to talk about that guilt equation and kind of walk
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the listeners through in a way that they could understand it in everyday
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kind of life.
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I think my favorite teachers are the ones that can take really complex topics
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and simplify them down to just their sort of key concepts,
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because then you can grow from there.
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You can use that in different contexts and see how it applies uniquely in your life.
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And so for me, I was like, how do I do that with guilt because
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it feels so overwhelming and it's showing up in all these different contexts.
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The equation is really, it's very simple,
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that our guilt is the difference between our expectations of ourselves
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in our different roles. And we can talk about where those come from,
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not just from us.
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Yes.
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Our expectations of ourselves minus our perceived reality.
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What I mean by that is what we actually perceive or notice about
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our contributions or the ways that we're potentially meeting or
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not meeting these expectations.
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So it's the space between those two:
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What I think I should be doing
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and what I think I am doing that creates so much guilt,
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but it also identifies these two key variables that we can change when
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we get to the, "I wanna move forward" part of the process,
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right? Because we know these are very specific areas we wanna start with.
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That gap, I guess, between the expectations and the reality,
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which then creates that guilt.
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I know you talked about four, and you call them "four furies," ~
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but these four areas that are pretty prominent in terms
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of this excessive guilt manifesting.
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So I wanted you to talk about that because I really...
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I actually thought that the four categories were right on.
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Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it was again,
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how do we understand our own experiences?
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And there are a hundred different triggers perhaps or types of expectations
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we might experience uniquely, but how do we group them enough,
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just start getting a sense, start getting a handle on this?
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And yeah, I call them the "four furies," which someone asked me once,
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"Why such a powerful word?" I said,
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"Well, it's powerful expectations that are being set." But those four are really,
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the first one is constant caretaking,
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that we should, and we should even want to,
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take care of everyone else in our orbit,
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often at our own expense. Hyperaccountability,
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which is this expectation that we can somehow control someone else's experience.
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So maybe we're making decisions to try and protect a loved one from having
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a feeling. Even though they are allowed to have that feeling no matter what.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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So
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So this hyperaccountability for other people's experiences is something
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we don't truly have control over,
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but we expect ourselves to. The third one is this idea of perfection;
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perfect self-control, which I think manifests in a lot of different ways,
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whether it's diet, exercise, alcohol use,
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how we express our moods, how we spend our time.
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But this sense that in order to be a good woman,
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ideal woman, we need to do
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things perfectly, we need to be perfect,
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we need to do things perfectly.
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And then the last one is a sense of "having it all," which is a phrase that always
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gets to me a little bit because what does that even mean?
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But I think what it's been interpreted as is,
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"I should be able to do all of these different things,
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including what's expected of me that maybe isn't fair,
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and I should do it effortlessly,
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and I should be able to do it without help."
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The COVID example, "I should be able to do all these miraculous things when
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I'm totally isolated from my entire support network." And so those four areas:
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constant caretaking, hyperaccountability,
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seeking perfection, and then having it all are broad categories that
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I think women can start to say,
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"Okay, I'm noticing this, but I use this equation," what expectation category,
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maybe it falls outside, but if it falls in,
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it just gives you a sense of, "I'm not alone in this,
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right?" The reason there are these
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major categories is because thousands of women that I've worked with have
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experienced them, not because you're doing this to yourself on your own.
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So that was really important to me too,
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this sense of ~ women not doing this to themselves and not being alone.
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Yeah. And I think earlier you talked about potential areas that
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are contributing to this excessive guilt and,
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and, that powerfulness of socialization.
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'Cause I even know it's like, even if you're trying to counter it,
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media, especially
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Mm.
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social media where, you know, the perception that,
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"Look at that person, they're doing it all.
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How come I'm not able to do it?" Or "I'm feeling bad because I'm not being able
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to do it all."
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What other things do you think account for this excessive guilt that we're seeing
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people really internalize, I guess?
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I do think that the idea of comparisons is really powerful in that even
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in our day-to-day lives, we choose perhaps who we're going to compare ourselves to.
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But I think in this algorithmic world of social media,
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things are just projected at us all the time.
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We're not choosing, "Oh, that would be a person I might want to compare myself to."
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We're just being blasted with examples of the extremes of what people
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are projecting. And so I do talk about
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instead of saying, "she's perfect," OK,
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she's projecting an image of perfection,
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that there's a difference between "that is reality" and "that
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is what's being projected toward me." We know those are two different things,
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right? So I think comparisons,
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which data suggests and research suggests that we actually compare more when we're
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already feeling down about ourselves.
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That's a perfect storm, right?
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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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And then
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another area that I think the more
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I got into it with the reading,
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or writing the book, it came out.
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It was these ideas that guilt helps us in some ways,
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costly ways, but in some ways,
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like maybe providing brief motivation,
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even though we're relying on self-criticism and harsh self-talk to get there,
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that maybe it's a bit motivating.
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But again, at a high cost and in a way that isn't sustainable.
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You're starting from behind, right?
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Instead of saying, "just do it," you're saying,
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"I should have done that already."
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So that's not a great slogan.
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Yeah.
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And then guilt can protect us,
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in a sense, from feelings that might be really hard even to feel,
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or maybe we were told we weren't supposed to express them,
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or when we did express them, people in our lives would sort of shut down
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or step away from us. So guilt can protect us from things like grief
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or anger or sadness. But unfortunately,
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then we can't...
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It's hard to identify the true emotion underneath that and even more difficult
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to process that emotion.
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I know one of the prominent feelings that oftentimes with clients
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I'm working with is not wanting to disappoint someone else.
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And so then that becomes kind of that motivation of guilt.
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You know, "I should do this, I'm supposed to do this if I really care about this
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person." And so I can really see how this guilt
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propels us to do things. Even though I think you talked about like,
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when we think about sacrificing ourselves,
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over-functioning, abandoning maybe,
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you know, what may be in our best interests in order to be able to
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do the things that we want to do.
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Yeah, and that's just so painful to see that happening.
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I think that disappointment was a big issue.
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It's still a very big issue for so many of us.
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It's become almost this belief that the disappointment itself is really damaging
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Mm-hmm.
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in some
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way. And I think when you really think about it,
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you've had a number of, many disappointments throughout your life,
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and you've been able to move forward.
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This is not something that
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Mm-hmm.
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is truly stifling. So when we work so hard to try and protect someone else from
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a feeling of disappointment, we make decisions based on guilt or
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a sense of obligation to try and protect them from feeling disappointed,
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which again, they could anyway.
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And so I
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Yes.
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think, how do we normalize that disappointment is a normal part of human life
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for us to feel, but also we can't be everything to everyone all the time.
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So, in order to interact with others,
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we are going to disappoint people,
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potentially often, because there's one of us and
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Yes.
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so many of them. But I think bending over backwards or immediately trying
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to fix disappointment if we feel it from someone,
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it sends a message that it's dangerous and it often puts us in this place
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of just exhaustion and continued guilt.
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Yeah. And, you know, related concepts that I often,
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working with clients or even myself of,
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it being okay to rest or to have boundaries and how hard that
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is for people to feel okay with saying,
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"You know what? I'm exhausted.
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I would love to do this for you
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but I got to take care of myself." And they
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Mm-hmm.
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will feel guilty for... "Why do I need to rest?
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This feels bad to put a boundary between me and this person,
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saying no."
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Yeah, isn't that, I mean,
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the idea of rest being somehow wrong.
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I think it gets at a number of those furies of expectations,
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one being the constant caretaking because constant caretaking doesn't actually
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include us, right? This expectation
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Mm-hmm
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is often everyone else, even at my expense.
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And so turning inward and saying,
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"I need to take a break or rest or have any care applied to me" is breaking that
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promise, it's moving away from that expectation.
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And it's also, as you said, "I shouldn't need this," this idea that
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if we are perfectly balanced, we're eating the right thing,
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sleeping the right amount, doing everything right,
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we should not need anything that could inconvenience someone else.
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But again, we're human. We absolutely do.
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Exactly. And it goes to that perfectionism.
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We're supposed to be the perfect human.
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And it's like, no, you're human.
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Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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That means, you need to rest and sometimes you may
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Yeah.
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be tired. And that concept of doing it all,
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being it all for everyone. And
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Mm-hmm.
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then it gets to, except for yourself.
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Right, that
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Right.
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somehow you will treat other people...
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And this is an idea from self-compassion we can talk about is,
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how would you say this to a friend?
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How would you help a friend in this moment?
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Yep.
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It's very
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different than the way we speak to ourselves.
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And that's true of care. Boundaries too.
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Boundaries are so important. And my reframe for boundaries,
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which helps me as well, is that they're not walls.
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They're not putting up sort of separation from you and someone you care about.
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They're actually...
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They're protective scaffolding that allow you to move toward them,
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to move toward connection. Because they're rules of engagement.
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And if I know that you are going to support and really align with my boundaries,
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I can move towards you because I'm not afraid that you will just blow right past
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the limits I've tried to set or just totally overwhelm me with your need.
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So I think boundaries help build connection rather than separating
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you from people you care about.
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I really like that. ~ It's almost like setting the rules of engagement
23:51
so that we're not guessing how
23:54
Mm-hmm.
23:55
we're supposed to interact. And I'm not guessing about your behavior,
23:59
like why you're doing
24:00
Right.
24:01
what you're doing, right?
24:03
Right.
24:03
Because you know, otherwise someone may set zero boundaries and all
24:06
of a sudden they're just absent.
24:07
They're just gone from your life.
24:08
Mm-hmm. Yes.
24:09
They've ghosted, right? Or vice versa.
24:11
You feel yourself pulling away.
24:13
And that's because when boundaries are crossed over and over again,
24:17
it just really pushes you apart.
24:20
You know, I know one of the things that you have done and I was able to take
24:25
a look at, you have come up with this guilt equation inventory,
24:30
which really lays out both the furies as well as,
24:34
you know, how it shows up.
24:37
So I wanted you to talk about that a little bit because I know at least
24:41
the one I looked at is helpful for clinicians.
24:45
But I also wanted to know whether people that are listening and reading your book,
24:50
if they could also benefit from the inventory that you created.
24:54
Yeah, I mean, as someone who's been in academic medicine,
24:57
you understand that it's important
24:58
Yes.
25:00
to think, how could this be applied in sort of a systematic way so people
25:05
can really get a sense of it? A book is a narrative form,
25:08
and it's long form. So how can I really make this a focused questionnaire that
25:13
I could use to ask a number of different people and sort of see,
25:16
is my hypothesis that women have so much more guilt in this area than men,
25:21
for example? How would that play out?
25:23
And I am working with one of my colleagues at Penn to try and come
25:26
up with some initial research to get some data on this to see
25:30
Mm-hmm.
25:30
and compare in our population.
25:33
But the guilt equation inventory is just going through sort of the four furies,
25:38
maybe four questions for each,
25:41
answered one through four. One is "never," four is "all the time."
25:44
So questions like, do I feel badly if I'm not doing something for someone else
25:50
at every minute, right? Or do I make decisions based on trying
25:54
to protect someone else's feelings or help them feel a certain way?
25:57
It just goes through these really key questions that I think help people delineate,
26:01
is this an area that I really struggle with?
26:03
Maybe all four will apply for them.
26:06
Maybe one really stands out. And they're like,
26:08
OK, this is where I can put some effort first,
26:11
right? I think that's one of the real benefits as clinicians.
26:14
If someone does a ~ worksheet or a questionnaire and we can really pinpoint
26:19
where they're having the most trouble.
26:20
So it goes through those furies.
26:22
And then the other questions are about some of these stickier functions of guilt,
26:26
like guilt as motivation, guilt as protecting us from other,
26:30
more difficult feelings. Guilt is somehow this proof that we care,
26:35
which I think is another really sticking point,
26:37
a lot of sticking points for guilt.
26:39
And the questionnaire does go through those.
26:41
What I'm hoping to do, I'm working with someone to try and put
26:44
the questionnaire on my website so people can just fill it out
26:47
and they kind of get their answer,
26:49
their results, and then some
26:51
Mm-hmm.
26:52
sort of key ideas to keep in mind as they go forward.
26:54
So I'm working on getting that set up similar to what they have
26:57
in Positive Psychology at Penn.
26:59
They have a number of these things you can fill out.
27:00
Yes.
27:02
And so how do I help people just be able to learn more about themselves?
27:06
Wonderful. You know, if someone's listening and they're going,
27:10
"That really sounds like me, actually." What could they do just
27:15
to begin to explore this and kind of see,
27:18
"Yeah, maybe this is an area that I want to work on and improve in."
27:23
Well, I think they already are one step into that,
27:26
right? Which is that noticing,
27:28
observing
27:28
Mm.
27:29
in themselves, "Oh, this sounds like me." It's like they had to take some time
27:33
and attention to even notice that in the first place,
27:36
right? Because we could just blow right past
27:37
Yeah.
27:38
it. So if we talk about, I came up with this sort of step-by-step process,
27:42
which mirrors psychotherapy, which is the SPEAK process.
27:46
The "S" stands for "showing up."
27:48
And I would say that that's an example of someone showing up and saying,
27:51
"I'm noticing this. I want to work on it.
27:54
I'm valuable enough to take time and energy and direct it inward." That's
27:58
a powerful step. And then the "P" is for "paying attention." Again,
28:02
"I notice. I'm noticing this thought.
28:04
I'm catching a guilty thought." As you know,
28:07
we are not our thoughts. We're not our guilty thoughts,
28:10
our anxious thoughts. And the more we can really start to trust that
28:13
and know that we are something deeper and sort more grounded than that,
28:17
we can start to make this change.
28:18
So it's paying attention. "E" is for "examining the evidence." These
28:22
are very simple terms, right? But we're examining when those thoughts come
28:26
up more frequently, certain relationships,
28:28
certain environments. Maybe I come home from work,
28:31
see my kids, and the guilt goes,
28:32
boop. So really assessing that.
28:34
And then "A" is sort of this next piece we can speak about is kind
28:38
of the "take action." How do we adjust both of those variables that we've talked
28:43
about in the equation? And then "K" is just "keep going."
28:46
I want it to
28:46
Mmm.
28:46
be clear that this is not a one and done,
28:49
like anything else in our lives,
28:50
this does take practice and you're rewiring your brain.
28:54
It takes some time to do so, right?
28:56
Yeah.
28:57
Yeah. So it seems like being able to identify and acknowledge that it's there.
29:03
I know naming it. So, you
29:05
Mm.
29:05
know, that has power in it. And then figuring out what are you going to do?
29:11
But knowing it's a process and being compassionate.
29:14
I always tell my clients to be compassionate and kind to yourself.
29:18
You know, this is going to take some time and
29:22
it's kind of like riding a bike.
29:24
You know, it's
29:25
Mm-hmm.
29:26
at first, it's really kind of not automatic and natural,
29:30
but you'll get it and slowly it'll get easier and easier.
29:34
Yeah, and I think that clinicians,
29:36
when they're thinking, "How can I help someone who's having this guilt?" I mean,
29:39
even just teaching the equation is a way for them to apply it.
29:44
I use it throughout my day. OK,
29:46
Mm-hmm.
29:47
what
29:48
expectation am I trying to meet here?
29:50
Is it fair? And then where we start to do some of that change is if it's not fair.
29:55
And if it's based on
29:56
comparisons on social media or something else.
29:59
It really is not who we want to be taking advice from.
30:02
How do we rewrite that? If the first draft is,
30:05
I should be everything to everyone,
30:07
starting there, how can we edit that according to our values?
30:11
Like, I'm a mother of two, and there are aspects of that;
30:14
I want to be caretaking in these areas.
30:17
I want to be available if they've had a tough day and they want to talk.
30:20
What are the things that I really want to prioritize?
30:24
And what are these sky-high expectations?
30:26
I'm going to make a healthy dinner every single night with homemade ingredients
30:31
and grow them all in my garden.
30:32
Yes, in an ideal world, but that's not where I am putting my time.
30:38
And that's OK. What is it that's most important to me in aligning with my values?
30:44
And that's how I can try and reshape these expectations that make sense for me.
30:49
You know, one of the things I want to be clear,
30:52
I guess, about is, you know, yes,
30:55
there's internal work, but there's also the context in which we live in.
31:00
And so I wanted to ask you, you know,
31:03
because I don't think it's, we should only put the responsibility on the individual,
31:09
that within our context, we know,
31:12
and you talked about socialization and,
31:15
you know,
31:16
the constant messages that we're getting that kind of reinforce these excessive
31:23
guilt patterns that are developed.
31:25
What do you think needs to change in families,
31:29
in workplaces, in society at large to kind of help,
31:34
you know, reduce and combat this excessive guilt that we know
31:40
is embedded in the way that we live,
31:43
in the way that
31:44
we grew up and things like that.
31:47
So I wanted to make sure we talk about the context so that we don't just say,
31:53
"Oh, this is your individual problem and you go and fix it."
31:57
Right, right. That yes, maybe we can do this change within ourselves,
32:02
but if we go out into a world that then gives us a message that says
32:05
you can't move forward unless you adhere to these expectations.
32:07
Mm-hmm.
32:09
I do see more and more that guilt is a type of social control,
32:13
that it's a powerful type of social control,
32:16
in that it tells us, "don't pay attention to what's happening here," whether it's
32:20
kind of rollbacks in different...
32:22
women's bodily autonomy, women's rights across different areas.
32:26
"Don't pay attention to that. Look inward and try and fix whatever's creating this
32:30
guilt." And so I think that, like I said,
32:32
there are many organizations, even family,
32:36
within a family dynamic, we know families are very resistant to change
32:39
and they may really benefit from you living in that guilt world,
32:44
in that guilt isolation, because you're trying to fix yourself and
32:48
not asking much of them,
32:50
or as much of them as maybe they could.
32:52
So I think within families, I've had men who've come to events and asked
32:56
me what can men do in this situation.
32:58
I do think the guilt equation certainly applies to men.
33:01
They're not free of guilt, nor should they be,
33:04
but they have different expectations on them.
33:07
Sometimes equally painful and equally difficult in their sort of specific context
33:11
is just how broad this is for women that really comes up.
33:15
So I talk about that.
33:17
All the amazing women who've gone before us,
33:19
the recent woman astronaut around the moon and the woman trainer
33:23
who trained the winner of the Kentucky Derby,
33:24
which every time I watch clips on that,
33:26
[Laughs]
33:26
I start crying; I don't know why,
33:28
it's just so beautiful.
33:29
Women have pushed and pushed and been able to move and open doors
33:34
and create opportunities. But I don't think the societal expectations,
33:38
again, of what a mother should be or what a good daughter would be,
33:42
they haven't really caught up.
33:44
And I think that it really behooves us to make this change because for societies,
33:49
things are going to be more balanced when more women...
33:52
there's not, it doesn't have to be more women than men.
33:55
It's not like I'm saying we're going to just,
33:56
we need to evaporate all the men,
33:58
but we need to have a seat at the table and not be apologizing for having
34:02
a voice there, right? Not being said,
34:04
"I should feel guilty for putting forth an idea that might challenge
34:08
the status quo."
34:10
Or might say that women could step forward in areas where previously they've been
34:14
excluded. And so I do think that,
34:16
societally, we have to open up to what are the many different ways that
34:21
a woman could show up and contribute in our society,
34:24
not limit them to a certain area or sort of pigeonhole them into that
34:28
so that they don't have the opportunity.
34:30
Some may really love nurturing,
34:32
caretaking. That may really give them so much meaning.
34:35
My mom volunteers at an animal shelter.
34:37
She gives all of her time and she loves it.
34:39
It feels so good for her. But that doesn't have to be the only path
34:44
to being a successful or like a truly engaged woman in modern society.
34:49
Yeah, and as you were talking,
34:51
what it made me think is allowing people to choose how they're
34:56
Mm.
34:56
going to live and how they're going to thrive.
34:58
~
34:59
Yes.
35:00
And if they choose that caretaking is how they get satisfaction,
35:04
that's wonderful, but that for somebody else,
35:07
it may be completely different and that we create kind of a society that
35:13
is acceptive of all those different ways of being.
35:17
Yeah,
35:17
Yeah.
35:18
Isn't that a wonderful, I mean,
35:19
imagining that. I've been thinking a lot about sort of the midlife transition
35:23
and what comes
35:23
Thank
35:24
after that. What are the paths that we could open up for women to emulate someone
35:30
to move forward as opposed to that being such an ending?
35:33
Because I think some of the stories that we've been told and that we're repeating
35:38
to ourselves are very limiting,
35:40
right?
35:41
Mm-hmm.
35:41
Menopause doesn't mean
35:42
you're done contributing or done feeling joy or done having romance or desire
35:47
or any of these other things. So how do we kind of rewrite these stories
35:51
so that women coming behind us aren't trying to adhere to the very same script?
35:56
They have, like you said, choices and options.
35:58
Absolutely. I mean, I guess right now I do see a surge
36:04
of conversations around this second part of life,
36:08
you know. ~
36:10
Yeah.
36:10
And it's interesting because it hasn't been focused on.
36:14
For some reason, there was some stigma about talking about this stage of life,
36:19
perimenopause,
36:20
Mm-hmm.
36:21
menopause, and afterwards, even though
36:24
Mm-hmm.
36:25
half the planet is women.
36:27
So anyways, I am very glad that we actually are starting
36:33
to talk about it
36:34
Yeah.
36:35
and give women information about it,
36:38
and what are going to be some things that you need to think about as
36:42
you move into this stage of life.
36:43
Right. Because you said naming is so important.
36:46
You can't push back against a shadow.
36:49
To be able to see what you're facing,
36:51
name it, really describe it, I feel like that allows us to face it with much more
36:57
courage because we can kind of see what's coming.
37:01
Even if it's difficult,
37:02
Mm-hmm.
37:03
we can see what's coming.
37:04
We know that it's easier if you can prepare and plan because you have information
37:11
as opposed to uncertainty and volatility and chaos,
37:15
right? And so that becomes so important.
37:19
Yeah.
37:19
And that community, when I've done groups where I've spoken
37:21
to a room full of women about this topic,
37:23
and they all can kind of find different ways that guilt's showing up for them,
37:26
many of whom didn't realize that's what it was for so long.
37:29
They're like, "Oh, wow, I didn't realize how pervasive this was." That's really
37:34
a powerful place. It's so exciting.
37:37
I mean, I don't want to hear that they're struggling,
37:39
but I know that something's going to shift for them now that they've realized what's
37:44
been happening.
37:45
Well, I know that we're getting towards the end of our time.
37:49
For someone listening right now who's constantly feeling weighed down
37:54
by guilt ~ and doesn't know how to let it go,
37:58
what would be key takeaways? And I will tell you that in her book,
38:04
there are more key gems that I think you will learn.
38:08
But I wanted you to talk about some key takeaways that someone that's listening
38:13
today could take.
38:15
Well, it's so important for me to be clear that women are not alone individually
38:20
in these experiences. And I really see power in community for change.
38:25
We don't do the consciousness-raising groups necessarily anymore.
38:29
But I even created these sort of guilt-free groups where people could just download
38:34
kind of a guide and go through the book together
38:37
and sort of say, "OK, let's talk about our individual experiences here." Ideally,
38:41
women of different generations,
38:42
right? Because we're all going through this a little bit differently,
38:45
but there are these common threads.
38:47
So for me, it's recognizing you're not alone and maybe trying to find other women
38:53
that you could start talking to just about guilt.
38:57
You could teach them the guilt equation.
38:59
If you're a clinician or just speaking to a friend,
39:01
"Here's something you could try in your day-to-day life;
39:05
see what comes up for you. And I'd love to share mine and talk back
39:09
and forth about this." Because again,
39:12
paying attention to where that guilt is coming up,
39:14
we're trying to each figure out our unique triggers.
39:17
But again, there are through lines here.
39:19
So it's finding that community,
39:21
having these conversations. You can help motivate each other that,
39:25
yes, I am important enough to put forth this effort and time
39:29
and attention to actually feel
39:31
sort of more like myself again,
39:33
sort of like an art restoration,
39:34
like illuminating this beautiful color within.
39:37
This is what I'm really hoping we can do to help each other.
39:40
That's beautiful. That is just really beautiful.
39:43
And Jennifer, I just want to thank you for being here today and sharing your wisdom
39:50
and your insights about becoming guilt free.
39:54
And I would say empowering people to be able to live their life better.
39:59
So it's been a pleasure having you on the podcast.
40:02
So thank you.
40:04
Thank you so much for having me.
40:05
It's an honor to speak with you.
40:06
Wonderful. And to the listeners,
40:09
thank you for being here today.
40:11
And as always, remember: Wellness is a journey,
40:13
not a destination. Please take good care of yourself,
40:17
and we'll see you here the next time.