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Mark Wolynn: from the archives · The Trauma Therapist

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Or today we even another episode from the archives with one of my incredible guests.
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Enjoy or Welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is gaymic
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Ferson. My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to
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be human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big
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believer in who we are is more important than what we know, and this
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requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can
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learn more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot
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com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, our
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folks. Welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. To My name is Gay
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McK firson and just really excited to introduce my guest this morning, Mark wool
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and Mark are you ready to go? I'm ready. Thank you for having
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me guy, You're welcome. Mark is the director of the Family Constellation Institute
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here in San Francisco, and he's a leading expert in the field of inherited
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family trauma sought after lecture. He has taught at the University of Pittsburgh,
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the Western Psychiatric Institute, Corpollo, the Omega Institute, the New York Open
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Center, and California Institute of Integral Studies. Mark specializes in working with the
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depression, anxiety, obsessive thoughts, fears, panic. His book, It
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Didn't Start with You, How Inherited Family Trauma Shapes who you are and How
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to End the Cycle has just been published by Viking Penguin. Mark, just
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a little bit about yourself. Share with our listeners where you're calling from,
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where you're from, and then let's dive in here in the Bay Area regionally
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from Pittsburgh guy, And I've been in this field for many, many years.
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All right, all right, So we start off here, Mark with
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a quote of mantra something to kind of set the stage for what you're going
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to share throughout this interview. What would you like to share with us?
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It's actually a Theater red Gee quote from the beginning two lines of a poem.
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The poem is called in the Dark Dark Time, and the beginning lines
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are in a dark time, the eye begins to see I meet my shadow
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in the deepening shade, and repeat the author of the again back in the
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fifties of Theater Red Gee in a dark Time. Okay, great, So
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give us a little background in that quote. Why that quote? When?
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What about the genesis of that? Talk to us about that. Literally,
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I lost my vision, which is what put me on the search. Both
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visions, really, but physical vision. About twenty six years ago started to
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go in my left eye, and I went to the doctors, and you
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know, I probably thought it was not much, but it appeared to be
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in an incurable condition called central serious retinopathy, which in most people was self
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limiting. But I had the chronic form, the type that's always leaking in
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the retina. And the doctors told me that I'll probably become legally blind in
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the one eye, and to expect that the other eye will be blind too.
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And at that point I was terrified. I was back then, I
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was a rock musician, a poet. I had a business in the day,
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and I had had to give up this business to go on a search.
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Well, I couldn't run the business, right, I couldn't see.
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And I I went on a search that led me halfway around the globe,
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learning from some very wise teachers, some very profound teachers really, who taught
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me some fundamental principles, want one of which was to go home and to
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heal my relationship with my parents. So it's kind of a funny story.
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I was waiting in line all day in a in an ashram for this particular
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master to have a sachs long a meeting, spiritual meeting, and I waited
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all day and I got to the front of the line, and by this
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time, you know, I couldn't see very well, but I was doing
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a lot of meditation, and I thought he was going to comment on how
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deep my meditations were going, and instead he looked right at me. I
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guess I should say he looked right through me, and he saw what I
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couldn't see, and he said, go home and heal your relationship with your
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parents. And I was livid, right, you know, I traded my
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parents and in I didn't need them anymore, so I thought, and I
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didn't want to hear what he said. And I went to even another,
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a greater spiritual teacher, and I waited in line all day and eight hours,
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and I finally got to the friend of the line, and the guy
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looked at me in the same thing. He said, go home and make
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peace with your parents. They could see, literally, they could see what
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I couldn't see. And here I was to go home. I heard this
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second time to make peace. But I had a completely broken relationship with my
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parents, and I didn't understand at the time, but it was inherited family
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trauma that stood in the way and the anxiety from which that was really the
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basis for my eye condition. So my eye was still doing about the same.
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It wasn't doing really well no matter what I was trying, juice fast,
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hands on supplements. So I decided to go home and make peace with
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my parents. But this was quite a feat because well, to give you
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the background, each of my grandparents i'd been orphaned in some way. Three
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of them lost their mothers when they were babies or toddlers, and the fourth
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lost her dad when she was one, and ultimately her mum's attunement, her
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mum's attention, and so this pattern of being broken from a mother's love was
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what passed forward in my family. I remember I remember being five or six
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years old, when my mom would leave vows, I'd run into her bedroom
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and I'm sure I'd never see her again. I'd pull open the drawers and
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I'd bury my face in her her nightgowns and her scarves, just to smell
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her scent. Thinking that that would be all I'd have of her left,
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I'd never see her again, which was true in my family, right,
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they lost all their mothers. I shared this with my mom forty years later,
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and I said, you know, Mom, when you would leave the
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house, I would go into your room and cry into your clothes. And
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she looked at me and said, you did that too. Oh wow,
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I did that when my mother left house. And the funny thing is my
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sisters now reading my book and she called me and said, you did that
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too, this feeling of being broken from a mother's love, and that's what
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I did. It was it was very hard to heal these broken relationships with
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my parents because I, you know, there were breaks in the bond,
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breaks in the attachment. But I did so, and sure enough, even
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though I didn't care about it at that time, I learned to be okay,
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no matter what my vision, no matter what my eye was doing,
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the eye underneath was okay. But strangely, my vision returned after I healed
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my relationship with my parents, and then for the last twenty plus years,
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I've been teaching these principles in my work. Wow, let's let's let's get
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into that. But first, Mark, Thank you so much for sharing that
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story. I mean, that is touching and profound, and there's just something
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so intimate about that, and um, it begs the question, you know,
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how did that? How did things unfold for you? How did you
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get into this field? What what happened? Tell us the story there?
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Well here here it was back then, um, not knowing what what I
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was doing, but I was being led Um, you know, twenty some
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twenty five, twenty six years ago, learning that there were some fundamental prison
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principles about presence and um staying with uncomfortable sensations and healing relationship with our parents.
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No matter how broken it was, there was something in that brokenness that
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is you know, as I learned through the years, traumas repeat for the
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hope to resolve. So we see these repetitions and we see if Freud even
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a hundred years ago called it repetition compulsion, right, We're going to repeat
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aspects of traumas and the hope that we get it right. But I think
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in a greater in the greatest view, there's something about the trauma that wants
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to heal, so it recurs. And as a practitioner, you know,
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I mentioned that poem that in a dark time, the eye begins to see.
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I meet my shadow in the deepening shade. As a practitioner, I
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started to walk alongside people into the places they often you know, don't want
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to go in. One of my tools is looking at a client's worst fears,
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because our fears they unconsciously guide the choices we make and the choices we
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don't make, choices that would be healthy for us, healing for us.
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And what I've learned is often these fears they don't originate with us. I
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learned that, of course, in my own story. But you know,
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science is now backing up this idea that we biologically and inherit the fears and
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feelings of our parents and our grandparents. You know, a large portion of
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my book talks about the new science and epigenetics. But I started to see
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patterns and people that didn't just have to do with the childhood. I once
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worked with this guy. He would get panic attacks so severe that he would
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black out when he would go somewhere new. And also my background poetry and
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language, I heard those words somewhere new, so he couldn't even go to
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a new restaurant. He couldn't even go to a new city, couldn't take
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a trip with his family, a vacation. He was imprisoned in his house
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because the fear of going somewhere new would make him black out. The panic
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attacks would be so severe. Then he dropped the bomb, and he told
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me seventy four members of his family parish died in the Holocaust. They were
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sudden. So here's the key right there, suddenly taken from their homes to
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somewhere new, a concentration camp where they're murdered. And it wasn't until he
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made this connection that his panic attack subsided. He knew about the Holocaust trauma
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and his family, of course, but he never made the connection. He
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never made the link that he was carrying it in his genes, the way
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his genes expressed. And afterwards, you know, he could take vacations with
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his family. How I got into it. I would see cases like this,
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cases that do we have time for one more? Please? Please?
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Yeah? One of my first cases, and you know, I was to
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have the metaphor again, I was shooting in the dark. One of my
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first cases, I was working with this young woman, twenty four year old
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woman who was a cutter, and she would cut so deeply Guy, that
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she would need to be hospitalized. She would cut, you know, veins,
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arteries. She would cut into her legs, her arms, her abdomen,
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and sometimes she'd have to be hospitalized her blood loss. Sometimes she'd have
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to be hospitalized for infection. But it was the cutting could almost kill her
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in the way she was doing it. So I asked her, Always interested
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in language, I asked her, what do you think about? What's what
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right before you cut? I'm going to call her Sarah for the purpose of
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this interview. Sarah, what do you what are you thinking in the moment
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right before you raise that razor blade and began to cut. And she looked
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at me and said, I deserve to die. And here I am,
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guy, looking at a twenty four year old woman who what could she have
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done? Her light's just beginning? And I said, Sarah, did you
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do something? Did you harm somebody? Did you hurt somebody? Do you
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feel responsible for someone's death? Did you break up with somebody and they committed
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suicide? She said no, nothing like that. And so I asked about
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her mom and her dad and oh, they're great. I love my mom.
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They're really supportive. When I cut they take me to the hospital.
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You know, they love them, and I'm thinking, well, maybe it's
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that they don't give her enough love and this is her way of getting attention,
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or she had a break in the bond, and none of that.
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Finally I started poking around in her family system, and then she dropped the
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bomb, and she told me Grandma was an alcoholic and she was driving drunk
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and Grandpa was in the passenger seat, and Grandma had hit a poll.
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Grandma lived, but Grandpa went through the windshield and got cut lacerated, and
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he bled out before the ambulance could get there. And in that moment,
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I made two connections which were imperative for the healing. When she cuts,
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she was talking about the trauma that no one would talk about her Grandpa's death
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at grandma's hands, And when she felt she deserved to die, it was
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Grandma who felt she deserved to die. And I've discovered, actually I work
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a lot with self injury. Many times, the self injurer, many times,
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not always is acting out two impulses at the same time, victimizing one's
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self and then feeling victimized by one's self. And then sometimes that might be
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looking at unconsciously a perpetrator or in a victim in our own family history.
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So it's it's crazy, right. Yeah, we're looking not just at our
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own childhood, but we have to look at this landscape that took place before
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we were born. Yeah. I mean you're talking about a lot of things
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here, and I really appreciate you kind of bringing out or highlighting how you're
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working and kind of identifying this, Uh, these different aspects I either intergenerational
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trauma in a sense. So when you started out, I kind of want
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to go back and just get this piece here. When you started out,
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you said you were seeing these different cases. Had you been working as a
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therapist and then started seeing these cases and then moving into this you know,
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quote unquote specialization of trauma or how did that evolve for you? Well?
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I was first a meditation teacher. I'd spend many years teaching meditation and mindfulness,
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and then I did a lot of physical body work. I started out
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with the up ledger work, the biodynamicranial work, the orth of bionomy,
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neuromuscular therapy, certified in many of those. Then I became a hypnotherapist,
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a clinical hypnotherapist, working with a body a body centered hypnotherapist, and then
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I took trauma trainings and all along. You know, I consider myself an
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educator really because I all along I've seen that we need to look back at
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the family traumas that we inherit. You know, science is telling us.
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I could talk about the science if we needed to, but it's just telling
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us now in the past few years that these are biologically inherited fears and feelings
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that were born with unconsciously. It was it was my eye condition that healed
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that. I inadvertently developed something called the core language approach, where I teach
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people to become detectives of their family history and uncovering the clues in the words
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they speak. Um. You know, when a trauma happens, it leaves
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a breadcrumb trail, It leaves these clues, and I teach people to hear
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their own trauma language. So those two people that I talked about that and
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locate where those those that language or those traumas originate. That one woman,
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when she gave me the words I deserve to die, that that was our
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trail, that was our breadcrumb trail. Because it wasn't her that deserved to
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die. It was a grandmom and the cutting was another type of language.
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When she cut almost bled to death. That was another visceral language that led
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to her grandpa died bleeding to death. And that other guy talked about the
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guy in the Holocaust with his family, you know, when he would black
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out whenever he'd go somewhere new. Hearing that quality of somewhere new. These
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were the things that led me guy, I started to hear language, I
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see dead people. No, I'm kidding right here. As I hear language
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right when I work with people, I'm listening beneath what they're saying, and
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I'm not getting into the story they're telling as much as I want to hear
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the deeper story through the language. Yeah, I really appreciate that. And
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this is really for me right now. Is kind of a gold nugget here
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in a sense that I know it is for our listeners as well. It
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sounds to me Mark like you're not just taking everything at face value. I
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mean to use a kind of weak expression, but is that you're looking beyond,
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hearing, beyond sensing, beyond and incorporating the wholeness of the client and
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not just Okay, this client is cutting you know, what is there?
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What's their issue? In a sense where right, what's their problem? It's
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it's beyond that. Um that that to me is is so rich. And
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how did you begin to see that? I know you use those two examples,
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but can you lead us into that process of how you got there,
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how you developed that focus or that lens? Yeah? Yeah, I UM.
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I started to work with people, you know, as man on many
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levels, first with the body, then as a hypnotherapist, but body centered
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UM. And it was this language. So I'd start to ask people which
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which I develop in my book. And it didn't start with you. I
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developed this way of questioning, this way of hearing, this way you know,
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as I said, I teach people to become detectives to do this themselves
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in that book, but to hear what. For example, one of my
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questions is to look for the worst fear, as I mentioned, And it's
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one of my questions I ask people for. I'll say, hey, guy,
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and this is a rhetorically I mean, you don't answer, but guy,
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if your life suddenly went down the wrong path, if things suddenly fell
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apart, if things came undone, and this is a feeling you've had your
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whole life. Guy, it feels like maybe you've even been born with it.
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What's your worst fear? What's the worst thing that could happen to you?
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And this question bears gold. It gives me a way of seeing the
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traumas in the early childhood, or the traumas in the family history. And
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so I started to ask these questions. I'm you know, my background again,
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before all of this was musician, poet, language, teaching, poetry,
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writing poetry. Before before I ever dreamed. I never thought in my
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wildest dreams, I'd ever work in this field. I loved music and poe,
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music and poetry. But I'll tell you it's I feel, in fact
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that that's here. If you don't mind, I don't. In many ways,
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healing trauma is akin to creating a poem. Both require the right timing,
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the right words, and the right image. So then when we all
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those three those three of those elements align, something meaningful get said into motion
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that we can also feel in our body. For example, if our pacing
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isn't in tune with a client, if we arrived too quickly at their healing
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image, that image won't take root because we got there too quickly without building
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the resources or building the arena where that image can drop into the body.
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Or if we if we arrive at the words that comfort them too early,
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they might not be able to take those words in. Or if those words
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aren't precise, if they're not precise, they won't be able to hear them
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or resonate with them. So in many ways, it's my background ground in
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poetry. That is what guides me in trauma. I see the when I
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look at what heals us, I look at imagist. It's imagist what heal
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us. When we arrive, well, let's do it in the negative.
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When we walk around with a negative image. My childhood was cruel, my
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mother was cruel, My childhood was difficult, my dad was abusive, My
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immune system is weak. These images cast a blueprint. They lay a blueprint
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for how our life's going to go. They're the foundation. So if we
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think life is difficult because our childhood was difficult, our therapist is going to
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be difficult, The healing is going to be difficult. They cast a blueprint
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for how our life unfold. So we have to shift these inner images.
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We have to find as we know, we have to have an experience which
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is large enough to overshadow our old trauma feelings, our old habit of feeling
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bad, and then we have to practice the feelings of this experience, the
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new feelings. So for me, I look at what's the image that can
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create that new feeling. What are the words that can create that new feeling
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that we can practice and that those are the things SI outline and my book
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can teach people how to get to man mark you are good. This is
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this is awesome, this is inspiring. Let's kind of move on here,
24:11
but before we do, let's just pause a moment for these announcements. All
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right, folks, Today's episode is brought to you by audible dot Com.
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I've teamed up with Audible to get you a free audio book by going to
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Sound good. Get your free audiobook by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot
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com slash free book all right, mark share with us. A mistake and
25:23
error, whatever you want to call it, a slip up, an early
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and early example here and what you learn from that. Yeah, no,
25:32
that's an easy one. I used to have my clients punch pillows and tear
25:37
up cardboard as though they were punching and tearing up their parents. And I
25:41
found that it brought momentary, momentary, momentary satisfaction. But the long term
25:48
effects, guy, they weren't what I was looking for. They weren't desirable.
25:53
My experience was that this type of abreactive therapy just led to more separation
26:00
and more depression because my clients would often come back the next time feeling worse,
26:06
and I discovered that under the core of their pain was a deep desire
26:11
to be loved and to be close to their parents. And ultimately, our
26:18
clients have come to us in the first place because they feel cut off or
26:22
alienated from their parents. And so when we pull away from our parents,
26:29
which I did, which most of us do, it's often a childhood defense
26:33
that we've erected to protect us from being hurt again. And it may have
26:38
been the only thing we knew how to do back then. But we're adults
26:48
and we have to ask now, what trauma happened to our mom that made
26:55
her distant? What trauma happened to our dad that made him drink. Our
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job as clinicians, I feel, is to help create understanding and compassion so
27:07
that our clients can find reconciliation and ultimately have peace with their parents. This
27:17
this um idea here about the importance of the system, the dynamic here um
27:29
you you talk a lot about this in the book It didn't start with you
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that that's a question I'm asking you a question, yes, okay, And
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again the book is the title is it didn't start with you? How inherited
27:41
family trauma shapes who we are and how to end the cycle again. I'm
27:47
gonna have this linked up at the show ups page here at the Trauma Therapist
27:49
podcast dot com. Mark what you why? What? What keeps you going?
27:59
In this work? Beautiful question? Thank you. I would see mysteries.
28:07
We all walk around with unexplained mysteries. We all walk around with an
28:11
anxiety that maybe as a sudden onset anxiety when we hit a certain milestone,
28:18
or you know, we go to get married, or we go to have
28:21
a child, or we reach a certain age and all of a sudden,
28:23
it's the same age that our parents split apart, a grandparents split apart,
28:29
or you know, our parents divorced at thirty, and we find ourselves pulling
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away at thirty from our partner, or we were eight. Now our kids
28:38
ate and we find ourselves distancing. I wanted to provide help for people who
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struggle with the effects of inherited family trauma and don't have a clue as to
28:52
why. They don't know where to turn. Don't we don't know why we
28:56
suffer. We think we're the problem. We think the issues start with us,
29:00
or we have a depression that's been with us so long we don't think
29:03
the question that this depression isn't us. We think it's us, and it
29:08
could be again biologically inherited. Do we have time for a quick story?
29:15
We do. We always have time for stories here. I once worked with
29:18
a woman. She was consumed with anxiety, and that she got once she
29:26
got pregnant. She had no anxiety before that. But now she's pregnant and
29:30
she's consumed with anxiety. And using the questions I outlined in my book,
29:33
we found out that she had a horrific fear that she would harm her new
29:37
baby. And so I asked her, did anyone in your family have her
29:42
harm a baby? And she said no, And then she said, oh,
29:48
my god, my grandmother, when she was a young woman, she
29:52
lit a candle and caught the curtains on fire, in the house on fire,
29:55
and her newborn was upstairs sleeping, and she couldn't get her newborn out
29:59
of the house, and we were never allowed to talk about it. And
30:03
in that minute, she made the link that she was carrying her grandmother's feeling,
30:11
her grandmother's experience. So I wrote the book for those of us that
30:15
have no clue that we are carrying bits of experience that doesn't belong to us.
30:22
And I also wrote the book to provide to generate some awareness in the
30:29
therapeutic community about the impact of epigenetics, because I'd like to see this field
30:33
grow and that practices like these become standards of clinicians. We have the tools
30:37
we need to work with our clients and patients that have inherited family trauma.
30:45
Mark, what do you say, What advice do you have for clinicians who
30:49
want to get into this field of trauma or begin their kind of trauma informed
30:56
education. What would you share with them? I would say, try not
31:00
to get too invested in your clients story. If we listen only to the
31:07
story how they've been wronged or victimized by their parents, we risk following them
31:14
into the places where they're perpetuating their own anxiety and they're staying stuck. But
31:19
if we know how to get to their core language that you know, that
31:25
that special trauma language. If we can get to that language and link it
31:29
to the original trauma, it's like finding the missing piece of the puzzle that
31:33
lets the whole picture come into view. Explaining why our clients feel the way
31:38
they do. Then we can implement solutions that heal at the source. It's
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I just think it's important for us as clinicians not to side with our clients
31:51
in their hatred of their parents, because I see that this therapeutic relationship can
31:56
fail. Because ultimately, I think I said this, but I want to
32:00
repeat it. Our clients have come to us to get them unstuck, which
32:05
is often done by helping them open their hearts to their parents. Even if
32:09
they say that's the last thing I want to do is be close to her
32:14
or be close to him. But but I believe underneath it's true. So
32:20
trying to trying to get too invested in your client's story you talked about,
32:25
you know, we risk following them into the place where they're perpetuating their anxieties.
32:30
Instead, you know, find the language that's connected to their trauma.
32:39
This to me, I mean it sounds easy. It sounds easy, It
32:50
makes sense to me, it sounds like, I mean this this requires some
32:55
sophistication. Obviously, this requires some work. I mean, obviously we're not
32:59
saying, you know, anyone can do this. But when you speak Mark,
33:06
I get the feeling that you were not. Just as you've talked about
33:12
before. You're not just listening to their store, you're kind of hearing,
33:16
you're seeing, you're using taking everything in that requires a lot, wouldn't you
33:22
agree? I lay this out in my book, I really do. I
33:25
don't mean to plug the book here, but I wrote the book for those
33:30
of us who struggle, and for clinicians who know nothing about a narrative family
33:35
trauma, nothing about core language. There's just, you know, basically,
33:39
some questions that we ask that I lay out in the book that can guide
33:45
the clinicians, beginning therapist how to ask these questions, what to look for,
33:51
and then how to hear it. So I give many samples of this
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language, this trauma language. Yeah, it's all right there. It's all
34:00
right there, very easy. In terms of a book recommendation, whether trauma
34:06
related or not, what would you share with us? Well, I find
34:09
myself. I always return to David Schnarch's book Passionate Marriage. I know it's
34:15
probably already fifteen years old, but I love it because he teaches us how
34:20
to fall in love with the soul of the other. And he drives home
34:24
that principle of into me. See where he teaches these exercises hugging until relaxed
34:35
with our partner, and then we revealed to our partner what's happening at the
34:39
level of sensation below the mind. And I often give my couples I teach
34:45
a relationship class too, and I often recommend this book to my couples.
34:50
I think it's a very smart book of staying in the moment and in the
34:57
awareness of sensation without it rise up into our minds, just like Eckard Tooley's
35:01
booked The Power of Now. That would be another book because it, you
35:06
know, again, teaches us to stay at the level of sensation, not
35:09
analyzed, not judge, but really I return what inspires me most as I
35:15
returned to poetry, the poetry of Rilca, the poetry of Loudzu, the
35:21
poetry of Computer Yates, T. S. Eliott Hathie's Room Me Jack Gilbert
35:29
poetry is what well, as we've learned in this podcast, is where I'm
35:32
most guided. I'm most guided with the profundity, the depth of language and
35:39
where it can go. I'll have each of those linked up at the shows
35:45
page again at the Trauma Thers podcast dot com. The Passionate Marriage, Keeping
35:51
love and intimacy alive and Committed Relationships by David Schnarch also Yearbook again, Mark,
35:58
it didn't start with you, How inherited family trauma shapes who we are
36:00
and how to end the cycle and links for Wilka and Lautza. Mark,
36:06
what's the best way for people to get in contact with you? Uh?
36:10
Um, Mark Woolen dot com www, Mark m E r K w O
36:16
l y n n dot com. I've got lots of videos on that website
36:22
and resources there for healing, and also on Facebook, Facebook slash Mark willin
36:30
Okay, Great Mark, it's been a pleasure. I want to thank you
36:35
so much for taking the time to share your own experiences and listening to you
36:40
talk. It's so inspiring. Um. I love this because it makes me
36:45
want to be a better clinician, a better therapist, and a better human.
36:50
And I don't I don't say that lightly. I mean this is this
36:52
is what this is all about. So thank you for sharing your passion with
36:55
us today. Oh guy, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed
37:00
walking with you and it's been an honor to be on your podcast. Take
37:04
Care, Take Care,