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The Nicene Creed with Shawn Wilhite and Coleman Ford · Christians Reading Classics

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: 1700 years ago, in the city of Nicaea in the Roman province of Bithynia in modern-day Turkey, the Roman Emperor Constantine called together a council of bishops, church leaders from all over the Roman Empire.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Meeting from May to July of AD 325, this council crafted a creed in Greek, for that was the language of this meeting.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this creed reflects the basic tenets of Christian belief.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: It went as follows: We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, the only begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God of God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, through whom all things came to be, both the things in heaven and the things on earth.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: For us humans and for our salvation, he descended and became incarnate.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: He became human, suffered, and rose on the third day.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: He ascended into the heavens and is coming to judge the living and the dead.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we believe in the Holy Spirit.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: But as for those who say there was a time when he was not, and that he came to be from nothing or from a different substance, who claim that the Son of God was either created or mutable or alterable, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes these people.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: This translation I just read is by Sean Wilhite.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from Sean's new book, co-authored with Coleman Ford, Nicaea for Today: Why an Ancient Creed Still Matters.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is out from BH Academic this September.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Christians Reading Classics, a podcast from Mere Orthodoxy.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am Nadia Williams, and it is a privilege today to speak about the Nicene Creed with Coleman Ford and John Woolheit.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: They are theologians, historians of the early church, and good friends.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Such good friends that they write books together.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is their second co-authored book.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Coleman Ford is assistant professor of humanities at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and Texas Baptist College.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sean Wilhite is Associate Professor of New Testament at California Baptist University.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you both for being here today.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: So grateful, Nadia.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having us.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Nadia.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: We're really glad to be here today.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the focus of this podcast is on classic books.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And this season we're celebrating classics with a milestone anniversary.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: In the case of Nicaea, the Nicene Creed, uh, 1700 years.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I open with the same question I'm asking everyone this season.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: What is a classic?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is it enough that we're still reading a text and talking about it 1700 years later?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or uh what other criteria would you add as we consider, in particular, what makes something a theological classic rather than purely literary?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's a great question.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think the idea of a classic means, first off, that it needs to be read and reread.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's a text that is not uh static.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it exists for the ages.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think that's general for you know that that applies to any classic, uh, whether you're thinking of the Iliad or Dionic Creed.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thankfully, we're not thinking about the former today.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but uh uh yeah, but this idea of a classic is it's enduring, it speaks timelessly.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and as I mentioned before, it's meant to be reread.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's meant to be that idea of digested and chewed on, right?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, well, with the creed, it's literally something to be said repeatedly uh in in worship and in devotion.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, why are we still reading a text like this uh now 1700 years later?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's because it has greatly shaped and impacted the theological mind of the church, not only the theological mind, but the spiritual heartbeat of the Christian church.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, we could probably get into this later in our discussion, but uh yeah, we lose that to our peril.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um when we think about just the new or the relevant or the trendy, uh, and neglect some of these weighted, again, classic things, uh, we lose our identity and we lose who we are as Christians, we believe.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I like that, the identity point that certain texts are part of our DNA.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh first off, fantastic question.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, what is a classic?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: I uh to to just answer adjacently to Coleman.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if like if a text is written in our generation, do we know that it's a classic?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: So the this as I was pondering the question, it's like it's it's further generations look back on texts that speak beyond like the culture and the time that they were currently written in.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm thinking of um goodness, Gregory the Great, Gregory the Great on pastoral rule.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: Not necessarily saying that this is a classic, but it is one that you know I want to put before pastors and put before uh ministry leaders.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the book was simply written from one bishop to one other younger bishop.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I don't know if they knew at the moment, like that this text would transcend these moments.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and goodness, we're both historians.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's like we don't want to take texts out of their own settings.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: But part of like the classical idea is that a that a book is actually the the the substance, the the the the viability is actually well beyond just its cultural uh uh uh uh setting and sort of transcends those moments.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the idea of classic books is to use the cliche descriptors, timeless.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So why does the Iliad still speak to us today?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because like there are those questions that it raises that are very much uh timeless questions of like the meaning of life.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to like live a life that is glorious?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in the case of Gregory, uh, for instance, yeah, that's that's fascinating.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't think, as we're writing something, is this going to be a classic?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um in the case of Gregory, there's a reason those kinds of um his work still appeals to pastors today, where it's like you're realizing pastoral life is similar.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I like this.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I like the identity question uh point that Coleman raised, that certain texts are classic because they connect to who we are, our identity as Christians, which I think kind of feeds into this next question I had for you guys.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you do?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of um, I always feel like these kinds of questions are almost like um almost too much.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how is sausage made?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't necessarily want to know.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to know.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And yet at the same time, like what do theologians do?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: It is kind of um, people don't think about it necessarily enough.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I really like your description in your book's introduction that it's theologians are doctors of the soul.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So uh could you guys explain a little bit what do you mean by this?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And especially how does this affect your approach to studying the classic that is the Nicene Creed?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first off, no idea.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: What is it to be a theologian but to have an exorbitant, uh, exorbitant amount of coffee uh and to have a budget of coffee shops uh to read uh and and to have conversations.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Secondary though, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: That might be, that might be.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh depends on which day of the week.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, as we think about what we do and that idea that we put forward as doctors of the soul, um, yeah, I think we want to, in in another book that we wrote previously, is to encourage readers to consider the task of a pastor, a minister, a theologian, a ministry leader.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: As someone who is getting into uh well, the unseen realm, if I can put it that way, and things that we uh we have access to uh via the text of scripture, via the Holy Spirit, but that is not something that can be uh uh well, you can't put a 30-minute time block on it.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: You can't put something that uh uh is articulated on a Excel spreadsheet or something to that effect.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean to do theology is to talk about literally the word theologos, talk about God, um, which you know sounds uh a little elitist or something, but um it's it's really the idea of using those words well, uh, and which is what the Nicene Creed is all all about.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: We'll get back to that, of course.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: But um words have meaning, and theological words, words about God, have of course ultimate meaning.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so to steward those things is we would argue one of the ultimate tasks of humanity um to do that, and those who have been trained in such a way as theologians through education and uh in and various training avenues, uh, that's even more incumbent uh upon us to do that.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm not trying to make it sort of like this uh uh hierarchical thing where we just think that there's only some people who can do this.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: But for those who are really wanting to get into this and maybe trying to think about uh some of our own uh you know our own vocation and sort of the things that we are very passionate about, um, I want my students to have joy in the Lord, but also have a reality that these are this is a this is a cosmological uh weighty thing that we're getting into.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so yeah, we talked about teaching students these things.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I we teach students how to read the Bible, we teach students how to uh you know do other things with uh theology, but I think the core of what you know I want to do, and I think Sean as well, is to really uh steward their soul and help them to see is that is that is literally what they are made for.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as I often tell students, um if you just sit here in this classroom or in this group that we're in, and for the next 30 seconds ponder to the best of your ability and your limited finiteness, the love of God, then one, your entire day has been well spent, and you are actually doing the thing for which you were made.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, yes, of course you should go and then clock into your job or uh you know attend to your family and these other things.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: But all of that is well improved and finds meaning in our contemplation of soulish things, biblical, weighty theological things.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I didn't mean to get all weird and philosophical there, but it is something that is, I think, worth considering even more deeply for the the average Christian.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then as we again talk about the Nicene Creed, this is what the creed is trying to do.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Give you a vocabulary of how to access the heart of God uh in his redemptive purposes, which of course we see spelled out scripture.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyways, I'll be quiet and let Sean take over and say something much more smart and important.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: First off, coffee.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I need my coffee.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's what we're gonna go back to.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, goodness.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I uh to to build off of that, I my thought went to Evagoras' comment.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: The the one who prays is a theologian, the one who is a theologian is the one who prays.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: And this notion of contemplation of God is not separated from the inner life of a human.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and so part of the theology or theologizing is yes, speech about God, speech about things in relation to God, but also we the theologian in relation to God and contemplation of God.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'm uh as as as Coleman was mentioning something, I I also think of something that I I tried to navigate with my students.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: There's a class I teach on virtue, and we we walk through the 10 virtues, or like like like the 10 classical virtues.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: You have the three intellectual virtues, you then have the four cardinal virtues, then you have the three what what some theologians or what the theologians call the theological virtues, faith, hope, and love.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: The first three virtues are non-pragmatic.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like I remember a student asking me, well, actually, how do we do contemplation?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it is just like you can't measure it.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it it almost feels immeasurable.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so the the life of contemplating God can be one of the highest goods that a person can do.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: Now, if that person is driven by success, this won't this won't serve them because their their markers are something different.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: If they're looking for pragmatic solutions, this isn't it.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: And and so part of good theology in my mind uh is that you it's slow contemplative thought of God, the one spiritual ascent to God, contemplating of divine mysteries, um, that we can't fully define nor boxen nor understand, but we can do it partially and we see the glories of God.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm thinking like to do good theology is tied to the beatific vision.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like um, as we as we study God, we actually start to see the face of God in Christ by the Spirit.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it's it's Trinitarian wonders, it's trinitarian mysteries.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: But for non-pragmatists, like it it just lacks a pragmatic um approach to this.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm but I'm drawn to this phrase.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'll I'll wrap up with this.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm drawn to the phrase of Evagoras.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: The one who prays is the theologian, the one who is the theologian is the one who prays.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: And and just thinking to do contemplation is not just the ivory tower, which is so funny in and of itself.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I don't even know an ivory tower professor, and I know a lot of people in the field.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like this made-up, uh, made-up image, but it's it's it's actually you contemplating the inner life of God and hopefully living a life of prayer in your contemplation of God.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: The theologian is the one who prays.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that that would work really well on a coffee mug for theologians.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: I like this.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I also uh I I think both of you brought up um the uh the point of things visible and invisible, which we'll get back to in a minute in the Nicene Creed proper.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um what does it mean to understand them?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's so much, there's so much rich language here.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the way theologians speak, on the other hand, perhaps that's also why sometimes people are afraid of theologians, that like it sounds almost like too much.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is this?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk like normal people?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: But um and we're trying, right?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, probably tells me that all the time.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also so beautiful.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe like, and maybe the retort should be to normal people like can you talk more pretty, like more beautiful?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and that gets us, I know, right?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: It gets us to Nicaea.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for the sake of listeners who might be a little bit confused about it all, um would you uh give a little bit an overview of the background?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is this council of Nicaea?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what led the Emperor Constantine to call it together?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like Constantine's just a weird guy, but anyway, I'll let you guys take it away.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Here's like a soft, uh like just a quick soft attempt to to do this.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the background.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: So Nicaea 325, early fourth century, we're 10 years, 12 years after uh the the emperor's edict of toleration of the Christian experience within the empire.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um the council of Nicaea was convened by um by the emperor.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um several, I think there's a couple reasons why.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: I I almost want to say that there's several reasons why.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'll try to navigate a stuff off the cuff.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you you have uh with Nicaea, the invitation goes out to about a thousand to twelve hundred bishops, and yet only 300 bishops show up.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's it's debated on how many bishops actually show up.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is it 250?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: Is it 285, 280-ish?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: Is it 318, which is kind of a number tied to the to Abraham's servants in Genesis?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um beyond those circa 300 bishops, you have the deacons and the secretaries that have joined them.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's feasible that over a thousand people are in attendance, though the conversation's gonna be with among the bishops.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: So so it does give kind of privilege to that.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: The the the this is not necessarily the first council, so to speak, that takes place.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: You have several local and more regional councils that take place.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: This is not the first creed that we see in antiquity.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh we have several, even before this, of regional creeds, baptismal creeds.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I don't want to necessarily put my finger in on one thing that caused the Nicene Council.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I want to try to avoid the the reduction, that reduction there, but it's like it's a combination of things.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: You have the the Trinitarian controversies of the third century, you have the echoes of Paul of Sama Sada, you have the echoes of uh Sibelius or what's known as Sibelianism, modalism, you have echoes of um this notion of monarchianism, like so Trinitarian debates are happening, and then you have Arius and Alexander that pop onto the scene.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: The reason I think those two get the the lion's share of attention is that that debate is the final straw.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the cause and it's not the only thing, but it's like it's finally the debate that tips over a long line of discussions.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: And therefore, Constantine, with um several of the bishops in the area, actually convenes the council in order to address uh three things the date of Easter, like way to send out an invitation to a thousand bishops to get together just to talk about the calendar.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh there were several um canons or ecclesiastical matters needing to be discussed.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: You had the Miletian schism, like there's there's several things that just needed to be addressed.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then, third, to address this controversy and this the Trinitarian controversy, which is why the creed is trinitarian in scope.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it's it's actually not all that they discussed at the Nicene Council, but it is what sort of survives in the memory of uh of Nicaea at that point.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: It convenes for two months, um ish, right?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: It it spans over two months, um, uh two calendar months.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: And um the emperor's involved, which already has weird connotations.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: You have some some bishops like the creed, some bishops don't like the creed, some bishops change their mind during the the writing of the creed.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, it's it's very interesting.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then obviously there's the aftermath of the council, um, which we can get into if we need to, but it's like not everybody bought into the creed right away, even if they signed it, uh, signed in its affirming, but rather the Nicene Council.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: Soul kind of made plain the emergence of like theological alliances.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: You now have the Eusebians on the on the plane.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: You now have the Heterousians on the plane.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: You now have several of these different groups that as a result of this creed, these theological groups got sharpened in terms of like their clarity.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'll stop there.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure I left out tons, but Coleman, yeah, villain or correct or whatever.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Man, yeah, there's a lot of information unpacked here, of course.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what we need to remember is that um this is not one of those meetings that you walk away and say, Well, that could have been an email.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a few of those uh in church history are like, really?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Did y'all really need to do that?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, this is uh this is core orthodoxy that's being addressed here.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's not as if anyone was even on either side, no one was saying, like, well, Jesus, the son, I don't know.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, optional.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: No one said optional.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what they're saying is um, or what rather, the sort of chord that had been struck, the dissonant chord, I should say, that had been struck, was um the eternal begottenness of the son, the relationship to the son, uh of the son to the father.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, which again is going back to our previous question, why can't theologians just talk normal, right?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um please stop.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: But uh but it's true in the sense of um if if that chord is dissonant, then the entirety of salvation is disrupted.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's why this harmonious um you know the desire for harmony theologically uh was the sort of the impetus for this.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you can talk about Constantine and political motivations, which a lot of scholars get into, and we touch on a little bit in our book, just as a sort of historical background and foundation.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, did Constantine feel that the urge or the need to uh sort of theologically, religiously, in a cult, cultish practice sort of way uh bring his empire together under the banner of Christ?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um we don't have we can get into that if we want to, but but regardless, the the theological impulse is is to establish, as Athanasius and others will later uh uh elaborate on the the boundaries of salvation.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh if we get those boundaries wrong, there's eternal consequences.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's again back to theology.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is why theology is important.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh, I think this is a point worth making, and we can get in this a little bit.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um if someone who was, let's just say, uh heard Arius preach at one point, a little open-air preaching exercise.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's out in the field somewhere and uh he's preaching.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And like, hey, I like this Jesus.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: This Jesus sounds great, uh, better than this pagan doc God who's not doing anything for me, comes to believe in Jesus and has a sincere faith.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, that's where I I kind of under, I want to think about okay, to what degree is your is your amount of knowledge needed for salvation?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh, yeah, I think we can have that conversation and say, well, the the sincerity of one's heart in understanding what they know and what they've received.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: But all that being said is once you have the stewardship of knowledge and once you have the stewardship of theology, it's incumbent upon you to then integrate that and then uh, well, not be flippant about that.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: So uh if you want, we can talk about this, but yeah, I don't think the church is necessarily saying um, you know, there's well, there's people who might uh have heard Arius, and if they heard Arius, they're eternally damned forever.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there are some strong uh anathemas, and the canons speak to a lot of these things, but what they're saying is um we need to clarify this so that the consistency of our proclamation uh remains um throughout the Catholic Church.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Our understanding of the Son in relationship with the Father, the triunity of God, which continues to be fleshed out and understood throughout the fourth century, um, is maintained.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so that uh we are ultimately doing justice to the word that's been received.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so all that being said is um you you read in some popular cultures the sort of it's an in versus out.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's a this is the first time anything about an orthodox belief is being established in the church.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's not the case.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: But what it is is you've got revelation that has to be understood, and you have revelation and a tradition that has to be um weighed in the balance, and uh and Nicaea is doing that with the sort of dissonant voices that uh, as Sean rightly said, you know, sort of uh uh um came to a culmination, came to a head with Arius.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so that's what we're thinking about when we think about the creed in the in the Nicae context.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is so good.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reminded um of John Dixon's recent um first hymn project where um he realized like here's a hymn that dates about a century before Nicaea and is already Trinitarian.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, yes, there is orthodoxy already being formulated much earlier.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that we get here this massive like uh creed that we still recite.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that makes a difference.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're not singing the first hymn in church today.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Although I guess John Dixon is working hard to change that.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is a really fun project.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that was interesting to uh encounter this summer.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, both of you brought up Constantine, and I'm thinking, you know, he gets so much um bad rep.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's really easy to like dislike the guy.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, here's this really pushy emperor who like locks a bunch of bishops in a room, says, you guys figure this out, locks the door, walks away, basically, like kind of idea that we'd like to imagine.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you guys better agree on something or else.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it does sound kind of threatening when an emperor just like convenes you.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you can also see why so many people were like, um, maybe I'll take a pass, hard pass, really.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the same time, I also wonder, and like obviously we can't know Constantine's state of salvation and like where he was theologically at this point.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also wonder if he did realize at some level just how important this was.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because here's the emperor of a massive, like massive empire who is taking a time out of his schedule, also.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: For two months, business in the empire is at a standstill while the emperor is doing this.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of mind-blowing from a perspective of a Roman historian.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is not what emperors have ever done.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's it.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like emperors were always considered to be like your head of the Roman religion, but no pagan emperor ever took out a two-month, like essentially sabbatical from doing all other affairs to focus on something related to religion.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if anything, the emperors were gonna take two months to have a banquet or something, you know, or do something nefarious.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um sorry, I just I just heard a podcast about Emperor uh Elagabalus, and I'm like, oh yeah.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, that's probably on the opposite end of the spectrum here.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, but yeah, to think about that, uh I don't know where we're gonna go with that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: We can put that to the side.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, we're not with Elagabalus.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, one thing I want to add to that, Nadia, because I think you bring up a good point, is to think about this uh dramatic shift in viewing, uh, which we get into the book and other texts uh elaborate on much more in detail, but just the shift, and I guess the political theology that's taking place in the fourth century, uh, which probably explains, and your point is well taken, you got an emperor who is willing to do this, uh, and you have guys like uh Eusebius and Lactantius who are around and sort of seeing this.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, well, in a lot of ways, uh Lionizing uh Constantine.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And to us, looking back, and we mentioned this a little bit in the book, like that's a little scary.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to do that.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: We want to be very cautious about um our relationship as church and state, and that's maybe a much more modern question for us.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: But all that being said is it's it's kind of well, it's it's it's a little scary to see how quickly they attach themselves to Constantine and very quickly, and yes, they are just just a few years removed from extreme persecution, uh, tortures and and and deaths and other things, and for the last great persecution.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so in some ways, psychologically, you can see this, but still, it is so fascinating to think about how quickly these church leaders um yeah, look to Constantine as sort of the savior of the church uh in many ways.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, all that being said, is it it is a fascinating study, Constantine is that dude that just stands out in history in so many different ways, but in particular of course to this conversation.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're ready to dive into the creed proper.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: So let's kind of walk through it and um just walk us through it kind of bit by bit and tell us like what details do you want everyone to pay close attention to?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I want to first uh I think note differences, and then we'll walk through um some kind of high points, if that's okay.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: So when we recite the Nicene Creed today, most likely we're reciting the Constantinople Creed of 381.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's this close relationship between the creed, the the Creed of 325 Nicaea, and then the th the creed of 381, Constantinople.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not until about the medieval era, and this is sort of where I get fuzzy in my own mind when this happened, where language of the Nicene Creed now refers to the Constantinople Creed, like where that shift actually takes place, it's it's fuzzy for me, but it's it's after Council of Chalcedon, it is after several of kind of the other major councils where they recognize this is the Council of the 381, uh uh Council of 325, Council of 381.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so in in working in that, the Council of Nica is where we'll start first.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: There are three big articles or three big topics uh discussed, followed by uh a list of anathemas.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: Article one, the doctrine of the the father.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: Article two, doctrine of the son.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: Article three, a statement about the spirit.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like we believe the spirit.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: And this is one of the reasons why it needed to be updated a bit at Council of Constantinople.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: So that threefold structure mimics and models the regular fidee and mimics and models what several other baptismal creeds in antiquity had were already doing.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: Council of Constantinople, uh, you have the reiteration of the Nicene Creed with the addition of about several changes uh uh and tinkerings with um the Nicene Creed.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: So at the Council of Constantinople 381, you have Article I, doctrine of uh uh doctrine of God, uh God the Father.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: Article two, you have doctrine of the Son.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Article three, we now have an expanded explanation of the spirit.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then after that, we have like these three other kind of small ideas where we have soteriology mentioned, we have ecclesiology mentioned, and we actually have a line of eschatology mentioned as part of the creedal, uh uh kind of the creedal confession that all Christians ought to be confessing.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um out of all of these articles, article two receives the predominant attention and uh explanation, namely uh Christology.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll stop, I'll stop there.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: And do we want to like do we want to walk through phrases?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: What do what do we want to do?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: But like um kind of the big the big articles, doctrine one, uh article one, doctrine of the father, article two, doctrine of the son, which is the larger one, doctrine uh article three, which would be the idea of the spirit.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm game to go as detailed as you want.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, go for it.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all right.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: From this, come on from this point on, we're only gonna be speaking in Greek.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that's right.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's right.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I mean, it is clearer in Greek, right?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yes.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I think what's interesting, uh yeah, as we continue to get into it more, um, yeah, and we mentioned this point at the beginning.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is a, of course, not the first creed that's produced by the church.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh what we need to uh remember is that in some ways, uh the formula, though it has some new content, um it's not it's not completely novel uh in a lot of ways.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in some senses, they're there we're confessing things that the church has been confessing, and and we're likely doing locally in different ways.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and we have uh, you know, as meant as as Sean mentioned, uh prior creedal formulations that are being used locally, councils that are being uh met locally.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so yeah, so I think for us to think about this again, this is not a novel uh uh invention by the church.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is something that taps into uh what is already a common accepted norm, liturgical, devotional, spiritual norm for the church.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I just want to make that point as we get into it, because part of our desire as we think about this book that we we wrote is to think, okay, um, if your church is not used to reciting a creed, um yeah, I don't think we say this in any snarky sort of way, but just know that you're you were the exception, right?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the the church of of of the early and medieval and even early modern period, uh they were used to doing this.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was part of their uh expectation liturgically, uh uh confessionally and otherwise.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: So uh yeah, so anyways, to think through that uh is helpful just to remember for those who are considering what yeah, what what is what does it actually mean to have a creed and recite this and have this before us?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that's super helpful.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: I I say we walk through Christology.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just because it's who is Christ.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: Who is the son?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh which is like the the heartbeat of the the Christian life.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh I don't mean for this to be academic.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: I might I I might sound detached from it.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: I don't mean to, so please Coleman, Colemanize me, make me a bit more palatable if you don't you don't mind.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: But the the article two on on the sun, it has two splits to it.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um where uh the first half is talking about the eternal relationship of the son to the father, and then it moves into the incarnational life of the the son.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's probably what most readers, uh new readers of the creed are used to, that Jesus was uh that the son was born, right?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: That the son lived, that the son suffered, so forth and so on.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: So like the incarnational life, then uh exaltation um uh of the sun.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: And and in our book, we try to we try to articulate like there's three big moves in in this for in this article.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_03: The the life of the eternal sun, the the same sun having become incarnate, the same sun having been exalted.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so trying to navigate this arc uh of the sun.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: What what I remember walking through um, gosh, a group of high schoolers um uh in the past month and a half uh on on the creed, uh and one of them said, I have no idea what begotten means.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like what and one of the things that I enjoy about teaching uh both high schoolers and college students is the the purity of their questions.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like I have no clue what this means.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there's no pretense, there's no performance in the question.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: And so I just really appreciate that.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: So begotten is gonna be um uh kind of a a key word in in this creed.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: The second kind of big word is this language of usia, uh substance or nature.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I I want to be if if academics are listening, I want to just signal like this is a hard word to translate, and I'm trying to signal that.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: But to the churchman and theologian, I'm like, okay, let's just use substance and nature.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: I might use them interchangeably.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't mean to ignore discussions pre like this is just a complex nexus of of ideas.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: But begottenness and oosia or substance are connected.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: So part of Sibalius is that there's one nature, but there's like three faces to this nature.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I I'm writing an article right now and I forget the I forget the critique.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: I actually think it might be Eusebius of Caesarea's critique of Sibalius, but he's like, it's a tri, it's a tri-faced God, is kind of how he how he referred to it.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's rather interesting to me.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: But, anyways, begottenness and Usia go together, that the son is begotten, and as the scriptures say, he is the only begotten.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: This is a unique activity and a unique relationship that is shared by nothing else and no one else but father and son.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: So hence Jesus, or this sorry, hence the son is the only begotten.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like this it is altogether unique.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: And as the creed states, uh, we believe in this is one of this is one of the lines in the Nice and Creed that is just super helpful because it's an explanatory phrase.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: Now, here's the phrase, begotten of the Father.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: And now another line, the only begotten.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: So it's emphasizing this begotten nature, and now it has this explanatory phrase that is from the substance of the father.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it, so in other words, begottenness and ucia or or or or nature language go together.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: That the son is the only begotten secures then that the son is what the father is by virtue of nature, right?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_03: So by virtue of substance, the the stuff, uh, so to speak, that that makes up the father, likewise now makes up the son.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: So then the creed then uh uh follows suit with these like these interesting phrases.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: The sun is God from God, light from light, um, uh true God from true God.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: So what's interesting there is that this is like kind of like a twofold concept here.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: God from God, it's activating person language.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: So we could say that the son is from the father, but it's also activating like nature substance language.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: What the father is, the son is from what the father is, and therefore it is the same.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: God, God, true God, true God, light, light.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'll stop there.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: I want I want to keep rambling on this.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: This is so this is so enjoyable for me.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love a good Sean Ramble.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's good.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I just call Sean and say, Hey, can you ramble for me?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and he will.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he was already doing it.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: I just went in the middle of it.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was gonna pick up on that God from God, light from light, true God from true God.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is where, uh, if I can say it this way, though, as as Sean mentioned, there is a theological rationale from this.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is also a deeply devotional reality that is coming into play here.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: That eventually Aryan Christology is gonna hit a roadblock.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to hit something.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, may not, it's it it it may not on the surface, may not on its basic confession, but eventually it's gonna hit a devotional roadblock to where actually Jesus can't do the thing that you want him to do.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the son actually can't accomplish what you're hoping to accomplish.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, he he can't be what you're hoping to be, and so on and so forth, and what you were told is actually, you know, a bit of a misnomer or whatever.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: But so this is where we think about God from God, light from light, true God from true God, uh, and the idea of the Hamausian, the consubstantialness, again, remembering that uh, you know, sort of the the loaded term there, um, this is where we well begin to distinguish, not necessarily, well, uh, yeah, in some ways, who's in and who's out, but also to distinguish how someone is ultimately going to um yeah, bear out in their confession uh of who Christ is.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're all reading, and so by the way, all of these groups are we're all reading the same texts, right?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: We're all reading the same received texts, uh, as is true for groups today.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're reading, you know, for the most part, the same texts.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's of course uh your interpretation of these texts and the ways in which it bears out in sort of I like the word nexus that Sean used, of you know, sort of the the web of connected texts throughout uh the scriptures.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh for someone, again, to confess light from light, um we don't have to go here, but I mean, if when you think about Trinitarian images uh or images of the Trinity, which we famously talk about, what how unhelpful they are, light is one that is continually used in the patristic tradition.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yes, of course, it'll ultimately fall short to explain uh the nature and substance of God, but it didn't stop Gregory of Naziansis from using it very positively.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it didn't stop all of these pro-nicene uh uh theologians, church fathers, from thinking through that aspect of light um as integral to knowing who God is.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so again, using sort of the sun, the light, the ray analogy that a lot of them use.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, anyways, what it's meant to convey, as our limited languages a lot as best can convey, is this is um in nature the same.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is in um power the same and in glory the same, worthy of, though it doesn't talk about it necessarily in this language in the creed, worthy of full worship, honor, um as as sun.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's again speaking as uh as the sun.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's helpful for us to remember is that um we at some point there's gotta be a image analogy language that we use to convey something that is ultimately unutterable.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: You can't do it.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but we have to.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and thankfully, God has given us language to do so, both in the scriptures.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: But again, as we as I mentioned a little bit ago, everyone's reading the scriptures, so therefore, we have to think even deeper about the language, back to this idea of theology is what theology is doing, um, to be as consistent as possible in our contemplation, in our theologos, the the speaking of God.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so yeah, I think as easy as it might be to breeze by these X from X statements that we were talking about, um they they they bear they they are load-bearing so much weight uh in a good way to where someone who doesn't believe this cannot say this uh in good conscience, I don't think.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um course, some people couldn't find ways around it, I'm sure, and they did.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, anyways, I'll I'll add that.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: We can keep talking about uh as the statement goes.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was struck as you were talking, Coleman, just how visual human beings are.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like we need a visual.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: So here's this thing it cannot be visualized, but we still need a visual.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea of light from light bringing that.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and of course, like we expect, and I have seen so many articles about this over the years that pastors need to use visuals as kind of, or at least verbal visuals in preaching to get the point across that like this is something that is not just specific to the ancient world, but it is to us today that we need something to try to figure this thing out.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's right.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: We get to this point that like, I'm sorry, Trinity cannot be painted.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sorry, Rubilev.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Can't can't do it.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can you can give it a good shot, but I mean, yes, it's all in our computer backgrounds, we get it, but still uh Yeah, and I think that that that idea of visual, of course, is key to who we are, but at the same time, um this is well, I I'm maybe tipping my hat a little bit to sort of my free church-ness, um, my my more Puritan vibe, perhaps.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's why I, though I've got a, and I'm gonna point at Sean, he's got a few icons in the back.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a few icons in my office.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh there's an idea of like I want to depict these things because it it's meaningful to me personally, but I also recognize uh the inability and perhaps even crossing unhelpful lines in depicting God those ways.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, to where I just I always want to be careful.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Sean talked about honest questions and things like that from students.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm thinking about like, yeah, I just I just want to be careful that we're not depicting God in a way that will uh hamper or or inhibit someone's spirituality.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's not necessarily the point of this conversation, though it does come up in Nicaea 2, which uh, you know, is uh another counsel we could mention that has nothing really to do with this.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so um, but yeah, I I think that's helpful to continue to think about even as we get into theology, as we try to articulate these things, that we are, yeah, we're visual, we're image uh uh sort of uh driven people.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, this the the the words and the the deep sort of metaphysical realities that are trying to be accessed here can only can only be depicted so much, can only be articulated so so uh concretely.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so, anyways, I'll stop my rambling.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sean, you want to do a ramble?
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sure, I guess.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: But it but like you like you you're using language, right?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like it it reveals a like a nerd moment in my mind.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: In another life where I have tons of space and no um no responsibilities, like I would love to pursue uh studies in metaphor theory.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: And like the the amount of metaphors that we use to describe and to to depict what we perceive as reality is uh is tantamount to kind of our our framework.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: So, like for example, the some of the metaphors that we've already been using is load bearing, right?
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: Load bearing is a metaphor that we're trying to use to describe the the gravity and the the the necessary weight of this.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've uh forgive me, but I forget who used it.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: But like we use the language of painting, right?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I wish we could paint the Trinity.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Trinity isn't physical, God is not physical, but yet we're trying to now use an image and metaphor.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: So like metaphors serve our concepts of how we're trying to perceive what is real.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's trying to physicalize all that is in physical or unphysical.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: So um yeah, I'm sure that I just made up a word.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: That happens.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: But like it's just it's just raising that idea.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, and so here in the creed, light from light, um and he's he's exactly right.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: That light, light is one of the the the one of the more preeminent metaphors um or images used to depict um God.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think about this in the concept uh in the sorry, in the context of the ancient world where, you know, when it's dark, it's really dark.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't see this kind of dark in our modern world um with electricity, city lights everywhere.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I wondered like if it was even more powerful as a metaphor for a world where, you know, however many hours of darkness were like really, really complete darkness.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's such a good, that is a good connection.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because those are questions I'm not asking.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what would be the third century understanding, fourth century understanding of light and darkness within the social sphere?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, that's a that's a great that's a great uh idea, right now.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: So can I ask you um, so you talk about uh the importance of thinking nicenely in your book?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I love this.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of coining new words, I don't think I've ever seen that one before, but uh I like it.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you mean?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the importance of thinking nicenely?
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: How do we even do this?
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: And why does it matter?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh if I can, I'll go first.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_03: I and just even give background to it.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um my wife and partner in life, Allison, is brilliant.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: I I love her to death, and she is she is very smart and sometimes doesn't give herself credit for how smart she is.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: She has taken two books that Coleman and I have written and given us both our punchline.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: So our previous book, our previous book, she gave us our title.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_03: And this book she gave us the language of nicenely.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: Because as she was, as we were talking about it.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: I don't remember if I was just like, I'm struggling with an idea here and just and like as Coleman said, I'm rambling.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_03: I torture my children by by talking about this stuff all the time.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but it it was uh in one of the sessions of or one of the times of her just reading the manuscript or or us talking, and she was like, You're just helping me think nicenely.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, that's exactly what we're trying to do.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: So like we're using that phrase.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: We're using that phrase.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it was so good.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: It but it stands out.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: It stands out, right?
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, so just to give credit where credit is due, Coleman and I are not the brilliant ones in this relationship.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually my wife, and she's the brain's the she's upholding everything.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, yeah.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, she's go.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, yeah, as we were tossing that idea around, I mean, we what we had in mind was okay, look, we want to have a core concept that is, you know, kind of like a thesis statement for the chapter, but essentially is a summary of what we want the reader to extract from this chapter.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Should still read the chapter, but still, um, you know, here's the here's the core concept that could then be integrated perhaps into like how you think.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: So again, back to Allison's credit, like this idea of thinking nicely.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then to try to like yeah, weave those threads closer together and tighter.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, as we do in the book, we've got some historical context, but then we get into uh sort of the uh the theological parameters, but not even just unpacking it in the sense that we've even kind of done uh today, but really just thinking about okay, how does that relate to the doctrine of salvation?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: How does that relate to our sanctification?
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then how does this relate to practices in the church?
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we keep in mind our audience is primarily free church, evangelical.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they most likely come from, you know, both of us uh teach and serve in in Baptist church contexts, where uh even church fathers is a is a dirty word to even say that.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but let alone Nicene, uh let alone uh creed, like all these very uh nasty words that you don't want to hear in your Baptist context.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: But all that being said is like, okay, but one, you should already be thinking this way, in some ways you do and you don't realize it.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then two, if you were to be more explicit about how you're thinking this way, it ought to bear more spiritual fruit in your life, more, more uh uh intellectual fruit.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um as you're as you're doing your Bible study, your your men's or women's Bible study, as you're as you're in your small group, as you're hearing the pastor preach.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, these are uh threads that we want you to weave together in those ways, so that um yeah, the the the language of thinking nicenely just comes naturally.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and really, if we want to equate it you know, somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just it's just thinking Christianly uh in its real uh true, sort of filled-out way, um, even if you had never encountered the Nicene Creed before.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, hopefully you're already thinking these ways and you've been taught in such a way and discipled in such a way.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's important for us to think through this, not because uh we want to give credit to Allison, which we should, but to really help people think uh this is not just a standalone text, back to our first question, a classic.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um this is a text which, when you open, uh untie the ribbon and open up the box, uh it is just spilling out rays of theological and spiritual uh insight that would hopefully um give you more confidence as you step into a conversation, uh, maybe in an evangelistic uh context, or more confidence in gosh, I read the gospels and it sure sounded like Jesus wasn't really fully divine when he said that.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but then I go over here and he says that, well, okay, let's let's unpack that and let's think, okay, the the early church had those same questions, and here's how they dealt with it.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: And here's why we think it's the best answer, and here's why we think it's biblical, and here's why we think it's honoring to the scriptures and the revelation that God has given us, so on and so forth.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so that idea I hope will carry forward um even years after uh people read the book.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: It is I was thinking, like, it is helpful.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do we like um creeds, some of us anyway?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it is a helpful starting point when you're trying to explain something, whether to new believers or kids.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I guess they qualify in the category of new believers.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, it's summaries are helpful starting points.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, what is it like writing a book together with your friend?
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is your second book.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: So clearly you enjoyed the experience the first time.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna do it again?
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're done.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're done.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: After this podcast, we will not talk to each other anymore.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: We actually already agreed upon that.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm deleting him off my phone.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, I think I'll I'll answer this and Sean, you can add to it.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, to me, it's a joy, and and it it sort of is an extension, I think, of what we want to cultivate uh even in our discipleship and spirituality, is that um we should, though we might write something uh alone as a single author, which we've done, but what we want to do is uh like engage these communally.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we think in some ways, uh the topics that we're presenting here, and and I think we do have some other projects that we want to do together, um, are strengthened um as two friends existing in some ways as one soul.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um sort of accessing some work I've done on Augustine and friendship, but just this idea of um you you're uh um you you have the soul of the other person um in in proximity.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: That that idea, and though though we live, uh you know, Sean is on the left coast.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he's in California, I'm in Texas where God still lives.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're we're in different contexts.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: Locationally, uh, we're in different contexts.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of mentioned politically, uh though that doesn't uh is not as important to us, but um, but what we can do and what we have seen is this is an extension of our friendship.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and despite the fact that he doesn't like working with Google Docs, which I love, um, we continue to write together uh somehow, miraculously.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: So any other thoughts, Sean, that you want to mention?
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's a miracle.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, let's just uh let's just point that out.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's a miracle.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh when I saw that question come through, here's the first, like, here's the two of the first things that came to mind.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Aristotle talks of friends, and he has different categories.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm only remembering two, and I know that there's more than these two.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but there's friends of utility.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm friends with this person because that person can do something to me, or I like there's this greater end, or then there's friends of virtue.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Coleman's a friend of virtue.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like, we're friends irrespective of this of if this book comes out or not.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_03: We're friends if like who cares?
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, this is we're not the um we're not defined by the product that we've done for one another.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like, no, we take delight in one another and take delight in the things we talk about, and uh it adds to our spiritual life.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_03: And like at the end of the day, I think like, what was it like writing a book with your friend?
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_03: I thought, this is the happy life.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like, this is this is the this is the delightful uh companionship of of two men that are able to enjoy life uh together and think theologically together.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: I like this.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think Augustine would approve.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if he doesn't, I'm gonna stop.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: If he doesn't approve, I don't do it.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's what we're we're all after.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do we have Augustine's approval as we do this thing in life?
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you both so much.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: And as we conclude, I have one final question for both of you.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: What classic book, whether fiction or nonfiction, theological or not, anything do you wish you had written and why?
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_03: Who would have been?
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I thought about like I'll go, I'll go first, but it's not because I have an answer.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's more or less like I actually don't think I could write a classic, and I don't like I'm not but like if I'm looking back, yeah, I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear John Webster uh talk about his book writing process, like to actually be in his mind as he's thumbing through ideas.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that another one, gosh, I don't do writing on Augustine, but I can't believe I'm gonna say Augustine.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_03: His confessions is so deeply moving for my soul that I would have had loved to have been around him and either when he experienced some of these things or uh as he was writing it.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't I don't want to actually have been the one to have written it.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_03: I just want to be, I want that close proximity with that author who did write books that have been really formative for me.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:20
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, since Sean already uh told us the right answer, which is confessions, um I'll uh I'll add one.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I continue to go back to Pilgrim's Progress um as a text.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I assign it in my spiritual formation class.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um I try to uh read it, I try to audiobook it, I try to read um every now and then a more modern rendition, and then I get frustrated and go back to the original, but still um yeah, again, it's kind of I I know the question's not meant to expose any hubris in us, but to think, oh man, if I could write Post Progress, wow.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Not only one of the most along with confessions, one of the most spiritually transformative texts uh in not only Christian history, but just literary history.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but there's sort of like a like, hey, that guy was also kind of sort of a Baptist, which I am.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: So like, okay, I kind of uh we're kind of in good company here.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_01: The guy who sort of inaugurated the modern English novel uh was also a dude that's sort of in my tradition.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyways, that's there's some uh little cute uh realization of that.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: So uh that's my answer, Nadia, and I'm sticking to it.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's fair.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Coleman, and thank you, Sean.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_03: Hope you over here, Nadia.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you both so much.