Latest / The Book Deal / LIVE! With Agony Aunt Toni Jordan at the Emerging Writers Festival

Transcript

LIVE! With Agony Aunt Toni Jordan at the Emerging Writers Festival · The Book Deal

0:09
Tina Strachan: The Book Deal Podcast Where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
0:15
Natasha Rai: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals, to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
0:25
Tina Strachan: So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered.
0:29
Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan.
0:30
Tina Strachan: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
0:32
Natasha Rai: And I'm Natasha Rai.
0:34
Tina Strachan: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
0:37
Madeleine Cleary: One deal at a time The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
1:03
Jess Zanoni: Hi, everyone.
1:04
Jess Zanoni: Thanks for staying till the end of today.
1:07
Jess Zanoni: Um, I'm very pleased to introduce our last session of day one of the National Writers' Conference, The Book Deal Podcast.
1:16
Jess Zanoni: Yay.
1:16
Jess Zanoni: For a special EWF agony aunt edition with internationally bestselling author Toni Jordan.
1:23
Jess Zanoni: Um, and I'm very pleased to introduce Madeleine, Madeleine Cleary, Natasha Rai, and Tina Strachan.
1:30
Jess Zanoni: Enjoy the session, and take it away.
1:33
Madeleine Cleary: Thank you.
1:33
Madeleine Cleary: Can everyone hear me okay?
1:35
Madeleine Cleary: Yep.
1:35
Madeleine Cleary: Excellent.
1:36
Madeleine Cleary: Um, thank you so much everyone for this, for coming to our very special recording of The Book Deal Podcast.
1:43
Madeleine Cleary: Um, as Jess said, I'm Madeleine Cleary.
1:44
Madeleine Cleary: I'm joined by my podcast co-host, so Tina Strachan at the end, Natasha Rai, and T- Actually, I won't introduce Toni just yet because we've got a special bio.
1:55
Madeleine Cleary: Um, okay.
1:56
Madeleine Cleary: So, um, I'm gonna give a quick explanation of our session today.
2:00
Madeleine Cleary: For those who don't know us or haven't listened to The Book Deal Podcast, we're really interested in pulling back the curtain on publishing industry and motivating emerging writers to get that elusive book deal.
2:11
Madeleine Cleary: In that vein, we sometimes interview esteemed and established writers to address all our publishing and writing woes.
2:18
Madeleine Cleary: So now we cue beloved Australian author, Toni Jordan.
2:26
Madeleine Cleary: Um, Toni is the author of eight novels, including the international bestseller Addition, which was very excitingly adapted into a feature film in cinemas in 2026.
2:37
Madeleine Cleary: She has been twice longlisted for the Miles Franklin Literary Award.
2:41
Madeleine Cleary: I have to take a breath'cause there's so many awards here.
2:44
Madeleine Cleary: Won two Indie Awards, been nominated for the Dublin Literary Award, has been shortlisted for other major prizes, including the ABIA Fiction Book of the Year and the Barbara Jefferis Award.
2:55
Madeleine Cleary: This is quite a feat, Toni.
2:57
Madeleine Cleary: Toni holds a Bachelor of Science in Physiology and a PhD in Creative Arts.
3:01
Madeleine Cleary: How have you fit all this in in your life, Toni?
3:04
Madeleine Cleary: And lives here in Melbourne, and her latest novel is Tender Foot.
3:07
Madeleine Cleary: Thanks so much for joining the podcast, Toni.
3:09
Toni Jordan: Absolute pleasure, and I was just mentioning before how much I love being an auntie, so I'm delighted to be all of your aunties.
3:16
Madeleine Cleary: We love being aunties, too.
3:18
Madeleine Cleary: Um, okay.
3:18
Madeleine Cleary: So we've received some pre-submitted anonymous questions from our listeners, which we've divided into two categories, so this is how the session's gonna work.
3:26
Madeleine Cleary: So emerging and early career writer questions.
3:29
Madeleine Cleary: Um, if you haven't submitted a question, so don't worry, um, we will have some time for audience questions as well at the end.
3:35
Madeleine Cleary: Um, we're also giving Toni, our Agony Aunt, absolute free rein to answer these questions- Okay.
3:40
Madeleine Cleary: as she wishes.
3:42
Madeleine Cleary: So, um, I'm gonna hand over to Tina to start with the emerging writer questions.
3:47
Tina Strachan: Thank you, Madeleine.
3:48
Tina Strachan: Okay, so are you ready, Toni?
3:50
Tina Strachan: I'm ready.
3:51
Tina Strachan: Okay.
3:52
Tina Strachan: Our first question for the emerging writers, uh, category,"Dear Agony Aunt, my manuscript has been rejected 35 times.
4:03
Tina Strachan: Is this it for me?
4:05
Tina Strachan: What should I do next?" And that one's from Deflated in Dandenong
4:11
Toni Jordan: Thank you for that question def- dear Deflated.
4:15
Toni Jordan: Um, first of all, I wanna say I, I can see you, and I know how that feels, and I, I see the frustration and the, uh, annoyance and all the hours and hours of work you've put into that manuscript.
4:34
Toni Jordan: Um, so I'm gonna give you a, give a little bit of sort of philosophical advice and then a little bit of practical advice.
4:42
Toni Jordan: Uh, I suspect that your goal has been to get published, and that's a common goal that emerging writers have.
4:49
Toni Jordan: They- their goal is to get published.
4:52
Toni Jordan: It's not a very suitable or, or, or manageable goal because it's entirely out of your hands.
5:00
Toni Jordan: And what you're, what you're asking is y- you're asking somebody who is a company.
5:07
Toni Jordan: Publishers are companies, and we live in a capitalist society, and that means that when they're saying something is rejected, they're not giving a valuation on your writing or on you as a person or on you as an artist.
5:22
Toni Jordan: What they're saying is,"We don't think we can make more money that it's gon- out of this project than it's gonna cost us to make the book." That's all they're saying, and mostly they're right.
5:35
Toni Jordan: Mostly it's not gonna make enough money for f- to be a proposition for them.
5:39
Toni Jordan: They're right 99 or 98% of the time, but it doesn't mean anything about your writing or about your value as an artist or a person Instead of having that goal of getting published, which is out of your hands, I would like you to think about replacing that goal with be-- how can I become the best writer I could possibly be?
6:03
Toni Jordan: And once you become the best writer you can possibly be, you become undeniable.
6:08
Toni Jordan: Like, th-that's the question.
6:10
Toni Jordan: Um, the question is how to make them queue up for you instead of you queuing up for them.
6:15
Toni Jordan: Would start rejecting a few of them when they, when they wanna publish you.
6:19
Toni Jordan: Um, so my suggestion is gonna be that this manuscript, you've done enough on it.
6:23
Toni Jordan: You can leave that manuscript behind.
6:26
Toni Jordan: You can start something else.
6:28
Toni Jordan: And the more manuscripts you write, it's a very common thing in the publishing industry for people to leave their first manuscript behind, do another manuscript using everything they've learnt, using all their skills that they've developed over that first story, and getting that second manuscript published, and then going back and publishing the first.
6:49
Toni Jordan: This happened to last year's Miles Franklin winner, Xiang Liu, who wrote his book"Ghost Cities" first, could not get it published, multiple dozen rejections, then wrote, um,"The Whitewash," which was the second novel he wrote, which was the first one published, and then he went back and published"Ghost Cities." So this is a common thing that happens.
7:14
Toni Jordan: Um, and the more you, you write, the more you practice, the more you finish projects, you're becoming a better writer.
7:21
Toni Jordan: That's gonna be your new goal, and that's the goal that you can manage.
7:25
Toni Jordan: Um, and if I can just say one more thing, there's one study, um, that really backs up what I'm saying here.
7:32
Toni Jordan: It's something I think about often, and it's called the photography study or sometimes the pottery study, and this involves a, an arts class, in this case a photography class, pre-digital phones in old-fashioned cameras, where the, the professor divided the class into two halves and said to the first half,"You're gonna be graded on the number of photographs you take." It's not just flicking a switch on your phone.
8:01
Toni Jordan: These people had to load film into their SLR, go out, take the photo, come back, develop it in the school, and produce the photos.
8:10
Toni Jordan: So it's not a quick process, and it's over multiple days.
8:13
Toni Jordan: It's a, it's a coursework.
8:15
Toni Jordan: But you're graded on the number of photos that you take.
8:19
Toni Jordan: And the second half of the class, he said,"You're graded on the quality of one photo.
8:24
Toni Jordan: We want you to take one or, like you are-- We-- pick your best photo of what you take, and we will grade you on that." And at the end of the semester, he got in a photography art critic to look at the po- portfolios of the quantity group and the quality group.
8:42
Toni Jordan: And of course, I wouldn't be telling you this story if not for this answer.
8:46
Toni Jordan: The best photographs were in the quantity group, not the quality group, because they were taking more photos.
8:52
Toni Jordan: They were learning every day.
8:54
Toni Jordan: Every day, they would find something that worked and something that didn't work, and they were, they were refining their skill every single time they took a photo.
9:02
Toni Jordan: So perfectionism is not only bad for your mental health and relationships, it's, it's an inefficient strategy to become the best artist you can become.
9:13
Tina Strachan: That's an incredible response.
9:14
Tina Strachan: I haven't heard that story before.
9:15
Tina Strachan: Uh-
9:17
Toni Jordan: Thank you.
9:19
Tina Strachan: And I love that, and I have to remember that myself, the perfection strategy is not ideal.
9:23
Tina Strachan: Yes, that's a good one for me, too.
9:24
Tina Strachan: Thank you.
9:25
Tina Strachan: So, so keep writing.
9:26
Tina Strachan: Some- Keep writing might be time to put it down- Keep writing but that one-
9:28
Toni Jordan: Time, time to put this one down.
9:30
Toni Jordan: Time to start something brand new.
9:31
Toni Jordan: You're a different person now.
9:32
Toni Jordan: You've got a whole lot of skills you didn't have.
9:34
Toni Jordan: You've got more skills that you need that you will develop over the course of another story.
9:38
Toni Jordan: Start something else.
9:39
Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
9:40
Tina Strachan: Yep, yep, just keep going is the, is the answer there.
9:43
Tina Strachan: Okay, so next question.
9:44
Tina Strachan: Okay.
9:45
Tina Strachan: "Dear Agony Aunt, I'm writing a book about people in my life, but I haven't exactly told them about it yet.""I'm disguising it, of course, but they might still recognize themselves.
9:56
Tina Strachan: Should I tell them in advance?
9:58
Tina Strachan: How might I d- how might I approach this?" And this is from Stealthy in Sandringham.
10:03
Toni Jordan: Um, well, well hello, dear Stealthy.
10:08
Toni Jordan: Um, I can only point to answer this from the perspective of a fiction writer.
10:12
Toni Jordan: I'm not a memoirist or a nonfiction writer.
10:15
Toni Jordan: I'm a, just, I just do fiction, but let me assure you that you are not, in fact, writing a book featuring the people in your life.
10:22
Toni Jordan: There is no, no similarity whatsoever.
10:25
Toni Jordan: They have different haircuts, they have different names, they have different eye colors.
10:29
Toni Jordan: There are...
10:29
Toni Jordan: And, and should by some weird thing happens where someone says,"Is that me in that book?" You feel free to say no,'cause it's not.
10:38
Toni Jordan: Um, the- just the...
10:40
Toni Jordan: it just isn't.
10:41
Toni Jordan: Th- there's just no...
10:43
Toni Jordan: In fact, you can be stunned.
10:45
Toni Jordan: If someone says,"Is that me in that book?" You can go,"No, why would you think that?" Feel free to be stunned.
10:52
Toni Jordan: Feel free to look amazed.
10:54
Toni Jordan: Um, feel free to say,"I would never have imagined that." So no, the, the answer is you are not doing that, um, and there's no similarity between your characters and the people in your life.
11:04
Tina Strachan: That's great, and I guess that's also assuming that all those people are gonna read your book, too- Yeah which would be lovely, but we know that that doesn't
11:10
Toni Jordan: really happen that often.
11:11
Toni Jordan: But, but, but in a slightly more, more, um, honest answer, they, people don't really see themselves because they don't see themselves the way you do.
11:19
Toni Jordan: So they will come t- come to, like, I've had this ha- happen multiple times.
11:24
Toni Jordan: People have come to me and said,"I'm in that book, aren't I?" Mm.
11:27
Toni Jordan: And I go,"No, no, no.""You're not." And then they say,"I'm this person." And you go,"No, you're not.
11:35
Toni Jordan: You're actually this person." But, uh, they don't.
11:38
Toni Jordan: They just don't see themselves.
11:39
Toni Jordan: So, um, but just deny, deny, deny.
11:42
Tina Strachan: I was just about to say that.
11:44
Tina Strachan: Deny, deny, deny, yes, and maybe just give them a different haircut, like you
11:47
Toni Jordan: said.
11:47
Toni Jordan: Yeah, give them a haircut.
11:48
Toni Jordan: Maybe that'll be enough.
11:48
Toni Jordan: Give them a car, give them a hobby.
11:49
Toni Jordan: Like, just deny, deny, deny.
11:51
Toni Jordan: Yeah.
11:51
Tina Strachan: Perfect.
11:52
Tina Strachan: Great.
11:52
Tina Strachan: So keep going, Stealthy in Sandringham.
11:54
Tina Strachan: Just, just keep writing- Yes and just disguise them.
11:57
Tina Strachan: All right.
11:58
Tina Strachan: Next question,"Dear Agony Aunt, I've heard that publishing is just about feeding the hungry machine and that publishers are just dumping books on the market without any support, especially debut authors.
12:10
Tina Strachan: Is this true, and can you name and shame the worst culprits of this?" From Unsupported
12:17
Toni Jordan: in Ulladulla.
12:19
Toni Jordan: Um, well, dear Unsupported, uh, look, this is a very fair criticism of the publishing industry, and the only reason I can't name and shame the, the pa- the people who do this is because they all do this.
12:32
Toni Jordan: At some point, they all do this.
12:35
Toni Jordan: And, um, what, what matters is that you protect yourself from being churned through a machine like this.
12:42
Toni Jordan: Um, it, it depends, of course, if you have an agent or not when you're, you're going out to submission and you're looking at a publisher, but you're trying to find someone who genuinely gets your work.
12:55
Toni Jordan: So you're not choosing on the basis of, of the name of the publisher or even on your advance.
13:00
Toni Jordan: I've been in situations, I know I can hardly believe it myself, where I've gone with a lower advance because I thought the publisher got, got the book more than the person, um, who, who offered more money.
13:13
Toni Jordan: You need to be very suspicious of the love bombing because there is-- if they wanna sign you, they will love bomb you.
13:22
Toni Jordan: And the, uh, you know, I've had, uh, little like, um, decks, um, designed, uh, and quotes from every single person in the company, including the people in the warehouse, about how much they love the book and, and people telling me that I'm a genius.
13:39
Toni Jordan: Luckily, I know I am not a genius.
13:42
Toni Jordan: So i-if, if you're being love bombed, your antenna should go up and you should sorta think, they're very desperate to get this book.
13:50
Toni Jordan: Is that-- Do they have a quota?
13:52
Toni Jordan: Do they need something in this slot?
13:55
Toni Jordan: Do-- Are they-- Do they feel like they need something to compete with some new person that another publisher has?
14:03
Toni Jordan: Um, so ask a lo- ask a lot of questions.
14:06
Toni Jordan: You can ask what kind of marketing support you will be getting, what kind of publicity support you will be getting, um, and Y- you might not like the answer, but you've gotta know because it, it's all part of your decision-making process.
14:20
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
14:21
Tina Strachan: That's a great answer.
14:22
Tina Strachan: So, so it's not just about the money.
14:23
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
14:23
Tina Strachan: It's about what can they offer you and your book because it's...
14:27
Tina Strachan: you want longevity and you want support, and I guess a big advance is great for you initially, but you, you want your book to, to live a long life, don't you?
14:35
Toni Jordan: Well, if that's what you want.
14:36
Toni Jordan: If you want a ca- if you wanna just grab the money and run, you can do that, too.
14:41
Toni Jordan: You write something very successful, sell it to the highest bidder.
14:45
Toni Jordan: Um, but if you wanna build a career, it's kind of better to start slower, smaller, with maybe an independent publisher who really gets what they're doing, gives you a smaller advance, and then you pay that out and they love you.
14:57
Toni Jordan: Whereas if you get a lot of money from a bigger publisher...
14:59
Toni Jordan: Once in Ame- once in America, I got a advance of$150,000.
15:06
Toni Jordan: That is the biggest advance I've ever had in my life, and it did not c- sell anywhere near that amount of copies, and I've never been published in America since.
15:18
Toni Jordan: And so, uh, s- uh, even some books that I think actually would've been good for that market, and I had a great agent, and they put it out on submission, but all they do is look it up and they go,"I, I made a loss." And so, that's it.
15:31
Toni Jordan: I will-- I don't think I will ever be published in America again over the course of my career.
15:36
Toni Jordan: So there are all these things to weigh out, weigh up, and only you can make that call.
15:41
Toni Jordan: Um, but smaller countries, um, you know, uh, uh...
15:47
Toni Jordan: My best country in terms of sales is Germany.
15:51
Toni Jordan: I've been always very successful in Germany.
15:54
Toni Jordan: They, they really like me there.
15:57
Toni Jordan: I really don't know why.
15:58
Toni Jordan: I don't speak German.
15:59
Toni Jordan: I've never been there.
16:00
Toni Jordan: But, um, I-- but my advances started off small there.
16:04
Toni Jordan: I started off with a small publisher.
16:06
Toni Jordan: I'm still with a, a, an independent small publisher who pay me small advances, and the advances earn out, and then they write to me and say,"When can I have the next one?" And then they give me a slightly bigger advance from the next one, and it has grown like that
16:21
Tina Strachan: That's the dream, Toni, isn't it?
16:22
Tina Strachan: So we all wish we can be there one day.
16:24
Tina Strachan: Um, that's fantastic.
16:25
Tina Strachan: Now I'm just gonna ask timekeeper Madeleine if we have time for one more question or I'll be- You do moving
16:29
Madeleine Cleary: on.
16:29
Madeleine Cleary: I give you permission, Tina
16:30
Tina Strachan: Thank you.
16:30
Tina Strachan: She's really strict.
16:32
Tina Strachan: Okay, I'm scared.
16:34
Tina Strachan: Um, okay, Toni, one more question.
16:35
Tina Strachan: Okay.
16:36
Tina Strachan: "Dear Agony Aunt, I'm pitching my work, and I keep getting asked for my genre and my comparison titles, but my work is so unique- and special that I could not possibly place it in such a rudimentary box.
16:50
Tina Strachan: I'm an artist.
16:50
Tina Strachan: Surely others can work this out, not me." From Exceptional in Esperance.
16:54
Toni Jordan: Oh, bless.
16:57
Toni Jordan: Um, well, you'll, you'll be...
16:59
Toni Jordan: L- let me relieve all of you from the pleash- pressure of thinking you have to be unique or special.
17:04
Toni Jordan: There is a very small number of stories in the world, and a very small number of ways to do it.
17:11
Toni Jordan: What matters is your voice and the perspective that you bring to something.
17:15
Toni Jordan: That is irreplaceable.
17:16
Toni Jordan: You are all irreplaceable.
17:18
Toni Jordan: Your creative voice is, is...
17:21
Toni Jordan: exists nowhere else on this world other than with you.
17:25
Toni Jordan: And in writing your story in your voice, you are giving all of us a gift, and you are making the world a richer and f- more fascinating place.
17:34
Toni Jordan: But the story itself or the, the type of story it is, is not unique.
17:39
Toni Jordan: So what I want you to imagine is this.
17:41
Toni Jordan: If that's a difficult...
17:43
Toni Jordan: that question, you know, comparative title question, is difficult to get your head around, think about it like this If someone...
17:52
Toni Jordan: If your book is on the shelf, it's been published, it's there, it exists, someone walks into a bookstore, sees it, and thinks,"Oh my God, this is exactly the book for me," and takes it home, what else do they have on their shelf?
18:05
Toni Jordan: So the person who loves your book, what other books do they have?
18:10
Toni Jordan: What, what...
18:11
Toni Jordan: Books speak to other books.
18:14
Toni Jordan: So many of my, of, so much of my work is because I've read somebody, something of somebody else's.
18:19
Toni Jordan: Books are in conversation with other books, so what are the, you know, if your book went to a book party with, and hung out with other books, who would be its friends?
18:29
Toni Jordan: Like, you, there's a number of ways to think about this that don't involve putting you, yourself into a little box because everything, art grows on art, and people get ideas from all kinds of places, and it's a kind of a big interconnected world of fantastic ideas and fantastic stories.
18:46
Toni Jordan: So I would think about it like that.
18:48
Toni Jordan: If someone really loved my book, what else would they have on their shelf?
18:52
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
18:52
Tina Strachan: Great answer.
18:52
Tina Strachan: It is a tricky one, though, comparative titles, isn't it?
18:55
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
18:55
Tina Strachan: And, and it can be a bit of a mis- mishmash of others and- Yeah so you can say it's a bit like this and a bit like that.
19:01
Tina Strachan: You can throw a movie in there for comparison.
19:03
Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
19:04
Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
19:05
Tina Strachan: Um, yeah.
19:05
Tina Strachan: Themes
19:05
Toni Jordan: and like- You're just trying to make a shorthand way of explaining to somebody before they read the whole manuscript wh- wh- where exactly does this sit?
19:13
Toni Jordan: Yeah.
19:13
Madeleine Cleary: I mean, Tina, you used a real person, didn't you, in your comparison title?
19:16
Madeleine Cleary: I
19:16
Tina Strachan: did, yeah.
19:17
Tina Strachan: For, uh, for my books, um, the Wilder Zoo series, which is about an 11-year-old girl who lives in a zoo, uh, I used, um, Juliet Nearly a Vet, which is a junior fiction book for kids, which is about a little girl who wants to be a vet, and so I said Juliet Nearly a Vet crossed with Bindi Irwin.
19:34
Tina Strachan: So that, yeah, I just...
19:35
Tina Strachan: Everyone knows who Bindi Irwin is, right?
19:37
Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, so a bit of...
19:38
Tina Strachan: So you can use an actual person as well.
19:40
Tina Strachan: You
19:40
Toni Jordan: can use anything you like.
19:41
Toni Jordan: It, it, the question is just helping publishers get a rough idea of where you sit and, and, and the kind of things that you're up against and the...
19:49
Toni Jordan: And also the kind of strategies that have worked before for those kind of books.
19:53
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
19:54
Tina Strachan: No, that's perfect.
19:54
Madeleine Cleary: And I think as well it shows that you're really interested in the industry.
19:57
Toni Jordan: 100%.
19:58
Toni Jordan: I mean, part of the reason why we're writers is we're all readers first, and it, this is why it's, it's easy, it's delightful to come to these things and hang out with people who share your interests and who are your kind of people.
20:12
Toni Jordan: And it, you know, it, it, it shows your commitment to, to the, the whole writing world.
20:19
Tina Strachan: Okay, thank you.
20:20
Tina Strachan: So now I'm gonna pass it over to Natasha, who's going to-- who has some questions for, uh, early career writers.
20:27
Natasha Rai: Thanks, Tina.
20:28
Natasha Rai: Thank you, Toni.
20:29
Natasha Rai: Um, so for those of you who aren't sure, an early career writer is someone who's had one or two books published.
20:36
Natasha Rai: Okay, so the first question comes from Cowering in Koonawarra.
20:43
Natasha Rai: "Dear Agony Aunt, my book is coming out soon, and I've been told that I have to engage with this awful thing called self-promotion.
20:52
Natasha Rai: How do I cope with the cringe at release time?" Okay.
20:55
Toni Jordan: So this is a very understandable and common issue.
20:59
Toni Jordan: Um, so we're gonna break it into two halves.
21:03
Toni Jordan: Um, I-- There are certainly people who do not have a social media presence at all, who are very successful, but they're not very many of them.
21:12
Toni Jordan: Um, I'm thinking like Pip Williams.
21:15
Toni Jordan: Um, there are, there are people who manage it.
21:17
Toni Jordan: But if, if you're being told that by your publisher, I guess, or by your agent, it's always good to kind of follow their advice unless it's badly wrong.
21:25
Toni Jordan: Um, so for the first part, when you're getting used to this idea of social media and putting yourself out there, you don't have to talk about your work.
21:34
Toni Jordan: You don't have to talk about your own work.
21:36
Toni Jordan: You can be a hype person for other people's work.
21:39
Toni Jordan: You can talk about your friends' books.
21:41
Toni Jordan: You can talk about the books that you read that you love.
21:44
Toni Jordan: You can talk about, um, things that you're learning as a writer, things that inspire you.
21:49
Toni Jordan: Um, if you're, if you're interested in art as well, you can talk about all that kind of thing.
21:55
Toni Jordan: So get yourself a presence first, and like other people's posts, and comment on other people's posts, and think about, um, books that are coming out soon.
22:05
Toni Jordan: As you all know, there is this fantastic thing called Debut Crew, which I'll leave, um, one of you to explain.
22:13
Toni Jordan: So there will-- you will enter into a world where you will, you will meet colleagues and people who will become very close friends, and you will want to support them.
22:22
Toni Jordan: So the first thing that you can do is just chop off this idea of going out and selling yourself or selling your work and just become an active and supportive citizen of the writing community, and that will get your foot in the door, get your name out there, make you, enable you to make connections and create a bit of visibility.
22:40
Toni Jordan: Do little book reviews on Reels, like things that you love, things that you really appreciate, and, and do that first before you start to get your head around talking about yourself, because that's the more difficult part.
22:55
Madeleine Cleary: I was gonna ask though, what about, um, getting up in front of people?
22:58
Madeleine Cleary: 'Cause I think that's also something, you know, where a lot of writers are introverts and, and I suppose speaking in front of people doesn't come naturally, particularly about yourself.
23:06
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
23:06
Madeleine Cleary: How do you get over that?
23:08
Toni Jordan: Um, I, uh, the the way I get over it is I kind of remember that I'm actually not very important and, um, I think people kind of have this idea that,"Oh my God, everyone's looking at me." Actually, no one's looking at you.
23:24
Toni Jordan: Like, you all look very attentive now, but fully half of you are thinking about what you're gonna have for dinner tonight Um, so like you really just...
23:32
Toni Jordan: You don't have to carry the weight of the spotlight because mostly you're really not gonna be in the spotlight, so you can take a lot of that pressure off yourself.
23:41
Natasha Rai: I like that.
23:42
Natasha Rai: It's true.
23:43
Natasha Rai: Thank you.
23:44
Natasha Rai: Okay.
23:44
Natasha Rai: So interestingly, we received multiple questions about leaving your current agent, so I don't know what's going on in the literary world out there- Wow um, but I've kind of put them together and this one comes from Lost in Lithgow.
24:00
Natasha Rai: "Dear Agony Aunt-" How do I respectfully and professionally move to a new agent?
24:06
Natasha Rai: I'm not sure they're the best fit for my new work, and I want to know what the etiquette is to search for a new agent while you already have one.
24:15
Toni Jordan: Okay.
24:16
Toni Jordan: Um, in, in full disclosure, I have never dumped an agent, but I have dumped separ- several husbands, so I feel like I can contribute still to this conversation.
24:29
Toni Jordan: Um, the very first thing you need to do is make sure you're okay legally.
24:34
Toni Jordan: So you need to go back and look at whatever contract it is that you've signed.
24:38
Toni Jordan: More than likely, whatever book that you've previously sold with that agent, they retain their agent's commission on for ongoing sales.
24:45
Toni Jordan: So just because you wanna move to somebody else does not resolve, um, does not eliminate the deal that they've done.
24:53
Toni Jordan: If they sold in a book of yours, they, they are in perpetuity entitled to their agent's commission on that work.
25:01
Toni Jordan: There might, depending on, again, your contract, there might be, um, periods.
25:06
Toni Jordan: If you've got a work out on submission, there might be an e- exclusion period where you can't dispose of the contract.
25:12
Toni Jordan: So first of things first is to make sure you're legally okay.
25:16
Toni Jordan: Go back through the terms of your contract.
25:18
Toni Jordan: Um, the second thing is to just touch grass a little because I- I know people who have-- I know two people who have dumped their agent basically because their agent failed to see the true genius that they were, and then they were not able to then get another agent.
25:37
Toni Jordan: So you do have to have a slight reality check.
25:41
Toni Jordan: Am I just...
25:43
Toni Jordan: Something slightly weird happens to your head if you have success very early in your career, and there's, there's a little wobbly judgment that sneaks in for a little period of time.
25:55
Toni Jordan: And so just run it by-- run the decision by someone that you trust, like,"Is this, like, a good thing?" And, and just see that it is.
26:02
Toni Jordan: But I'm assuming for the purposes of this that it is.
26:06
Toni Jordan: You don't have to give a reason.
26:08
Toni Jordan: That's an, that's something that you have to know.
26:10
Toni Jordan: You can just say, you can just send them an email and say,"Dear agent, um, I'm very grateful for everything that you've done for my career so far, um, but I feel like, um, our relationship has come to an end.
26:25
Toni Jordan: Um, I really, again, appreciate all your help and wish you all the best.
26:29
Toni Jordan: Much love," whatever, right?
26:31
Toni Jordan: You don't have to-- The, it's not an interrogation.
26:33
Toni Jordan: You don't have to justify yourself.
26:35
Toni Jordan: The shoe is on the other foot, and they didn't like your work, they would dump you with zero problems.
26:41
Toni Jordan: So, you know, so often the, i- we are burdened by this empathy and this fear and this idea of being the lesser person in the relationship, but you're equal partners in this relationship, and you don't have to justify yourself or your feelings.
26:57
Toni Jordan: And some of the reasons that people have for getting rid of an agent is, um, s- agents have different strengths.
27:04
Toni Jordan: Some of them are extremely good with editorial advice, and some people need that, and, and some agents aren't.
27:10
Toni Jordan: Some agents are very ach- across a mar- marketing and the relationship with the publisher, and some agents aren't.
27:16
Toni Jordan: Just like anybody, there are different agents with different strengths.
27:20
Toni Jordan: So you can just think to yourself,"Actually, I could use an agent who w- is prepared to give me a bit more manuscript advice or work with me at an earlier stage." Or,"I would prefer an agent who has a better communication strategy." You should not have to wait weeks for a reply from someone that you are signed with.
27:38
Toni Jordan: That's not really acceptable in a business relationship.
27:42
Toni Jordan: Um, it's kind of, you can, you can put feelers out before you officially dump somebody.
27:49
Toni Jordan: Um, but probably don't sign with somebody.
27:52
Toni Jordan: Like, it's like dating, you know?
27:54
Toni Jordan: Like, you know, you can, like, think about somebody you might like to date while you're still officially with somebody else, but cut, cut it first before you make the other thing official.
28:05
Toni Jordan: So is, is it-- Can it be
28:07
Natasha Rai: true that agents talk to each other and they can be like,"Hey, you know, Lost and Lithgow just contacted me.
28:13
Natasha Rai: Don't you represent?"
28:14
Toni Jordan: Yeah, certainly.
28:15
Toni Jordan: Certainly, they do.
28:17
Toni Jordan: There's an agents' association, and I can only imagine what gets up, g- what goes on at these things.
28:23
Toni Jordan: Um, so yeah, you can put out subtle feelers, but, but don't probably approach someone, um, properly until that relationship is severed.
28:32
Toni Jordan: But I guess my overwhelming excuse is that you are not the lesser person in this relationship.
28:37
Toni Jordan: You are equal partners in this relationship, and if you feel you're not being looked after, you know, it's, it's polite to try and resolve things first if it's a, if it's a thing of an actual issue that you've had.
28:51
Toni Jordan: If you say, you know,"I, I sent...
28:54
Toni Jordan: Just re-resending this email that I sent three weeks ago.
28:58
Toni Jordan: Is there some reason you haven't come back to me?" Like, it's always mature to try and resolve things before you cut it, but you should not feel bad about it.
29:05
Toni Jordan: It's a professional, um, decision, and you don't have to justify it, and you, you're all grown-ups, and you're allowed to, to do anything that you like.
29:14
Natasha Rai: Great.
29:15
Natasha Rai: So another-- Like, yeah, so the advice is to just make sure it makes sense, and then you don't have to justify.
29:20
Natasha Rai: Yeah.
29:21
Natasha Rai: I like it.
29:21
Natasha Rai: I like it.
29:22
Natasha Rai: Yep.
29:23
Natasha Rai: Okay.
29:23
Natasha Rai: So Hopeful in Haversham Dear Agony Aunt, let's talk about money.
29:28
Natasha Rai: Okay.
29:29
Natasha Rai: When can I quit my day job?
29:32
Natasha Rai: Um, was there an event or a book deal that gave you the confidence to quit?
29:37
Natasha Rai: And what does a sustainable writing career look like?
29:40
Toni Jordan: This is the eternal question and the number one question, uh, the most important question.
29:46
Toni Jordan: Um, I think we should all, all be more transparent about money because we are all by ourselves and the publishers are all together.
29:55
Toni Jordan: Like, they know what everybody gets, and we know nothing.
29:58
Toni Jordan: So whenever you're coming from a position of having less information, you're always at a disadvantage.
30:05
Toni Jordan: So I think we should be prepared to speak about money a bit more.
30:08
Toni Jordan: Um, for me, uh, I-- my first book came out in 2008, and I s- I started writing full-time in 2020, so it took me 12 years to, um, to no longer have, um, a- another stream of income and, uh, we were just discussing this in the green room before, um, it's still for me book by book, so if I have a-- if my next book comes out and doesn't sell many copies, I will be back to teaching and mentoring people.
30:43
Toni Jordan: Um, when you are very new at it, and especially if you're a young person, please have something else.
30:49
Toni Jordan: Please have some other job or interest or something that you can do to make money.
30:54
Toni Jordan: Not only does it take the pressure off the writing, um, career, but it gives you something to write about.
31:01
Toni Jordan: It gives you i- introductions to people in different realms.
31:05
Toni Jordan: Um, it, it gives you themes and gives you im- important stories that you wanna tell, and you hear things, and you interact with people.
31:12
Toni Jordan: I, I always feel like there's a stage in the career of writers when all their characters become writers and editors'cause they don't know anybody else.
31:20
Toni Jordan: So you wanna delay that moment for as long as possible for practical as well as artistic reasons.
31:26
Toni Jordan: Um, so for me it, it took 12 years, and the reason I was able to do it is I had a couple of lucky breaks.
31:33
Toni Jordan: Uh, my first book was, um, an international bestseller.
31:37
Toni Jordan: Um, I had an, uh, another book that was a, a number one bestseller in Germany.
31:43
Toni Jordan: Um, I had a book on the VCE English list, which meant that something like 25% of Victorian year 12 students had to mostly buy and read a copy of that book- And I had a film, which, um, i- is a, a lump s- like it's a...
32:02
Toni Jordan: You get a small option fee every year, and then you get a l- lump sum that's equivalent to something in the vicinity of between 3% and 5% of the total budget of the film.
32:13
Toni Jordan: So these things all...
32:15
Toni Jordan: I, I had a, a string of good luck.
32:18
Toni Jordan: So I started writing, um, in 2004, and I had these four good luck things happen over the last 22 years that, that have delivered me to this point.
32:29
Toni Jordan: So it's not gonna be quick.
32:31
Toni Jordan: Um, and I still think that, you know, I, I, I still f- feel that it's tentative for me.
32:38
Toni Jordan: I don't have, like, money in the bank.
32:40
Toni Jordan: So at any point I could be, like, put- ringing up Writers Victoria,"Hey, Writers Victoria, can I run some workshops for you next year?" Like, that, this could well be happening.
32:49
Natasha Rai: So it kind of sounds a bit like that first question we had, where it really is kind of s- out of your hands because it depends on how your book might do or as you said- Yes get a lucky break and then- Yes
33:01
Toni Jordan: yeah.
33:01
Toni Jordan: Yeah, that's exactly right.
33:02
Toni Jordan: Uh, be lucky if you can at all manage it.
33:06
Toni Jordan: It's very good for your writing career if you can be lucky.
33:09
Toni Jordan: Um, it's been enormously helpful for mine.
33:12
Toni Jordan: Um, but, you know, luck can always end, so then I'll have to do something else.
33:17
Toni Jordan: Exactly.
33:17
Natasha Rai: Exactly, yes.
33:18
Tina Strachan: But also incredible books, Toni, and really good writing, not just luck- That- I think I'd have to say
33:22
Toni Jordan: that's, that's lovely, but we all know that there are incredible books out there who do not have the luck, and there are writers who are very good and work very hard and never have that zeitgeist kind of stroke of good luck.
33:35
Toni Jordan: So, um, a lot of it is out of, is out of our hands
33:40
Natasha Rai: Okay.
33:41
Natasha Rai: So thank you, Toni.
33:42
Natasha Rai: Um, that concludes my section, and now we'll go back to Madeleine.
33:45
Natasha Rai: Very nicely
33:46
Madeleine Cleary: timed as well.
33:46
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
33:47
Madeleine Cleary: So this is perfect.
33:48
Madeleine Cleary: I'm happy as the timekeeper.
33:55
Erica Lee: Hi, I'm Erica Lee, and my debut memoir, The Bond Between Us: A Mother's Journey Raising Two Neurodivergent Hearts, is published by Hawkeye Publishing and releases on the 22nd of September 26.
34:08
Erica Lee: What happens when motherhood looks like nothing you imagined, and the children you're raising become the ones who change you?
34:15
Erica Lee: The Bond Between Us is a raw and hopeful story of raising my two autistic children, Louise and Andrew, and learning to see the world and motherhood differently.
34:26
Erica Lee: I began writing the book in 2023 while working as a teacher, raising my children, and training for my first Ironman.
34:33
Erica Lee: Three years later, it's being published with an endorsement from Professor Toni Attwood on the front cover.
34:40
Erica Lee: I wrote this book because there are many times in our journey when I felt incredibly alone.
34:45
Erica Lee: My hope is that another parent will recognize something of their own family in our story and feel a little less alone.
34:56
Madeleine Cleary: All right.
34:57
Madeleine Cleary: So, um, shortly we'll be asking you for your questions, so use this as the opportunity to think through what you might wanna ask Toni or us as well.
35:06
Madeleine Cleary: Um, in the meantime, we're gonna play a little game, and this is a game that I'm calling Chaos Round.
35:12
Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
35:13
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so there's gonna be no structure.
35:14
Madeleine Cleary: So for those who like structure and order, there's nothing in this round, and that's our Tina.
35:19
Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
35:20
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so the rules are...
35:21
Madeleine Cleary: The rules.
35:21
Madeleine Cleary: There are no rules.
35:22
Madeleine Cleary: No, no, there are some rules.
35:23
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so Tash, Tina, and Toni have five minutes to answer all 10 of my questions.
35:29
Madeleine Cleary: The rules are that you need to give me an answer, so each of you have to give me an answer.
35:35
Madeleine Cleary: It can be a- as brief or as long as you'd like, but you have to beware the timer, so you've got five minutes to answer through my 10 questions.
35:42
Madeleine Cleary: Right.
35:42
Madeleine Cleary: And some of them are a little bit tough and challenging.
35:46
Madeleine Cleary: Please don't give me one-word answers.
35:47
Madeleine Cleary: I might ask you for more information.
35:49
Madeleine Cleary: So this is gonna be interesting.
35:51
Madeleine Cleary: We'll see how this goes.
35:52
Madeleine Cleary: All right.
35:53
Madeleine Cleary: I'm gonna start the timer.
35:55
Madeleine Cleary: I've got two phones here, so I'm managing both.
35:57
Madeleine Cleary: All right.
35:58
Madeleine Cleary: Timer is starting.
36:00
Madeleine Cleary: First question: Do I need social media as a writer?
36:02
Madeleine Cleary: I think you answered this, Toni.
36:04
Toni Jordan: Uh, you don't need it, but it's handy, and y- you make friends.
36:09
Madeleine Cleary: Love it.
36:10
Tina Strachan: Uh, I'm gonna say, uh, no, I don't think you need it, but yes, don't look at it as a negative.
36:14
Tina Strachan: Look at it as a positive.
36:15
Tina Strachan: You might meet some of your best writer friends, which I have actually done.
36:19
Natasha Rai: I reckon you don't need it, but if you do have it, only use it for what feels good for you.
36:24
Natasha Rai: So don't use it for, like, reels, for example, if you don't like doing reels.
36:28
Natasha Rai: Just use it for stuff that actually m- is fun because every time you're on social media, it takes away maybe from your writing time, so it should...
36:36
Natasha Rai: you should make it worth it.
36:37
Madeleine Cleary: Are we happy with that answer?
36:38
Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
36:39
Madeleine Cleary: Um, do I need an agent?
36:43
Tina Strachan: No,
36:43
Toni Jordan: you don't Um, well, well, it-- I, I think it depends on who your publisher is.
36:48
Toni Jordan: If you are with one of the very big multinational publishers, and you are a small individ- one individual person trying to negotiate with a huge multinational company, you, you are immediately at a disadvantage.
37:01
Toni Jordan: And having an agent in those circumstances is a bit like being in a union because they will have other people, and they, and they can give you a bit of support in that way.
37:10
Toni Jordan: If you are with a small independent publisher, my, my goal, uh, my kind of rule is if you can get your publisher on the phone, um, easily, uh, you probably don't need an agent
37:22
Tina Strachan: I'm just gonna expand on my, uh, answer of no you don't.
37:25
Tina Strachan: Um, but if y- but even if you are with multinationals or you are concerned, or you, you're coming to that point of needing to negotiate or wanting to negotiate, you can actually, without having an agent, there are some agents, um, that will provide that for a fee, and they will do a full, like they'll negotiate for you.
37:40
Tina Strachan: Um, but ultimately that's where the relationship ends.
37:43
Madeleine Cleary: Your time is ticking, ladies.
37:44
Natasha Rai: Sorry.
37:44
Natasha Rai: Oh.
37:45
Natasha Rai: Okay, so I used to think it was a no, but I'm moving it to a yes.
37:48
Madeleine Cleary: Okay, perfect.
37:50
Madeleine Cleary: Do, do I need to publish short stories before I publish a novel?
37:55
Madeleine Cleary: Like is it good to have this?
37:57
Natasha Rai: I never did that.
37:58
Natasha Rai: I can't do short stories.
37:59
Natasha Rai: I'm hopeless.
38:00
Natasha Rai: I did, but it didn't seem to help me.
38:02
Tina Strachan: Uh, I mean it's probably really good practice, but it...
38:05
Tina Strachan: Unless they're pub- yeah, unless you're publishing them, I guess it probably doesn't matter.
38:08
Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
38:09
Madeleine Cleary: Should I ask my friends and family for feedback on my writing?
38:13
Tina Strachan: Can you please repeat the question?
38:15
Madeleine Cleary: Should I ask my friends and family for feedback on my writing?
38:18
Tina Strachan: Hell no.
38:18
Tina Strachan: No.
38:19
Tina Strachan: No, no, and no.
38:21
Tina Strachan: Uh, my answer is yes you probably can, but don't expect it to be as honest as you probably would like it to be,'cause they're all gonna say it's great.
38:28
Madeleine Cleary: Perfect.
38:28
Madeleine Cleary: Um, should I do a course on creative writing?
38:31
Toni Jordan: I love courses.
38:33
Toni Jordan: I think h- me- it, it, m- you meet people, you try new skill sets, you see different ways of doing things.
38:38
Toni Jordan: You can do very short courses or online courses.
38:41
Toni Jordan: Anything that gets practice is great.
38:44
Toni Jordan: I'm a resounding yes because I met some
38:46
Natasha Rai: excellent, excellent new friends and it helped my writing craft.
38:51
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
38:51
Tina Strachan: Uh, I'm gonna be a little bit in the middle and say e- especially if you're a very brand-new writer, it's probably really helpful to hone your craft and learn all those, um, skills and things, but, um, you definitely don't need to, to be published, but it's about the quality of your work,
39:04
Madeleine Cleary: I suppose.
39:04
Madeleine Cleary: Love it.
39:04
Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
39:05
Madeleine Cleary: Are we happy?
39:06
Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
39:07
Madeleine Cleary: Um, is it okay to use AI for any part of the writing process?
39:12
Toni Jordan: My answer is no.
39:14
Toni Jordan: No, no, no.
39:15
Madeleine Cleary: Why?
39:16
Toni Jordan: It's like, you know, you can have someone...
39:19
Toni Jordan: You can get on a motorized scooter and do the marathon course and come back and say you ran a marathon, but guess what?
39:25
Toni Jordan: You didn't.
39:26
Toni Jordan: Um, and you don't need it.
39:27
Toni Jordan: You don't need it.
39:28
Toni Jordan: We have been writing novels now for 200 years.
39:31
Toni Jordan: We, you can do it without.
39:33
Natasha Rai: No.
39:35
Natasha Rai: Do
39:35
Tina Strachan: you want me to say more?
39:36
Tina Strachan: You're not allowed to do one- you're not allowed one-word answers.
39:37
Toni Jordan: Oh, amazing.
39:40
Madeleine Cleary: Almost had to make the episode
39:41
Natasha Rai: explicit there.
39:42
Natasha Rai: Uh, no, because I agree with what Toni just said, and also isn't, I mean- All the anguish and the joy of writing, why would you want to take that away if that is what you want to do?
39:54
Toni Jordan: It, it, it...
39:55
Toni Jordan: Can I just say one more quick thing?
39:57
Madeleine Cleary: You may.
39:57
Toni Jordan: Thinking that AI's gonna make it better is, again, thinking about the product.
40:02
Toni Jordan: It's thinking about what you're producing, and that's where you're putting all your energy.
40:05
Toni Jordan: That's not the point.
40:07
Toni Jordan: The point is you.
40:08
Toni Jordan: The point is becoming a better craftsperson and a better artist, and that is, is counterproductive to that goal.
40:14
Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
40:14
Madeleine Cleary: Well, that was a good answer, so I'll allow that extra time.
40:17
Madeleine Cleary: I'm gonna add 30 seconds on.
40:19
Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
40:19
Madeleine Cleary: Um, if I run into a publisher or agent at an event, should I pitch my work to them?
40:24
Toni Jordan: 100%.
40:25
Madeleine Cleary: Okay.
40:25
Toni Jordan: Oh.
40:26
Natasha Rai: 100%.
40:27
Natasha Rai: Pitch them.
40:28
Natasha Rai: You're not here for a haircut, pitch them.
40:31
Natasha Rai: Like, like at an event that's designed to be pitching or just a random-
40:35
Madeleine Cleary: No, just bump into Catherine Milne.
40:37
Madeleine Cleary: What are you gonna do?
40:37
Natasha Rai: Um, I would...
40:38
Natasha Rai: Okay, me personally, way too scared.
40:40
Natasha Rai: Always so scared.
40:42
Madeleine Cleary: Okay, Tina?
40:42
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
40:43
Tina Strachan: Uh, I don't think I would, no, but people definitely do- Do it and I think some people love it, some people don't.
40:48
Madeleine Cleary: Do you know, Catherine Milne said to me that's her, she loves it, but she wants you to know what she publishes, so do your research.
40:54
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, of
40:54
Toni Jordan: course.
40:55
Toni Jordan: Yeah, yeah, know what you're talking about, and have a good pitch, like a short two sentences.
40:59
Toni Jordan: So you could say, you, you'll say,"Actually, I'm writing a book"
41:07
Madeleine Cleary: Do you know what?
41:08
Madeleine Cleary: I'm gonna be generous and give you- More time an extra couple of minutes.
41:11
Madeleine Cleary: More
41:11
Toni Jordan: time.
41:12
Toni Jordan: Um, y- y- you run into Katherine Milne and sh- and you say,"Actually, I've got a manuscript at home." And she says,"Really?
41:19
Toni Jordan: What's it about?" And have an answer.
41:21
Toni Jordan: Like, I, I have stood next to emerging writers who have gone,"Oh, I don't know.
41:25
Toni Jordan: Now that I have..." Like, don't do that.
41:27
Toni Jordan: Say,"It's a f- well, it's about a boy who is, um, 15 and has decided to become a ballet dancer, and it's based on my life in the ballet school." Like, have a short answer that starts with,"It's a story of a person who does this thing be- and because I am interested in this thing," and just have one a- one little sentence ready.
41:52
Madeleine Cleary: Ooh, and that's where your comparison titles also help.
41:55
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
41:55
Madeleine Cleary: It is this meets this as well.
41:57
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, yeah.
41:57
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
41:58
Madeleine Cleary: All right.
41:58
Madeleine Cleary: We're gonna go over time, but I'm liking these answers.
42:00
Madeleine Cleary: So, um, this is an e- quick one: Should I read my Goodreads reviews?
42:05
Tina Strachan: No- No I don't think you should.
42:06
Madeleine Cleary: Never, ever, ever.
42:07
Madeleine Cleary: Ooh, Toni looks like-
42:08
Toni Jordan: Look, y- you know, if I had to...
42:11
Toni Jordan: The answer is no, but occasionally I have a little peek, um, and, uh, it's almost always a bad move.
42:20
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
42:20
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
42:21
Madeleine Cleary: Um, my husband only reads my five-star reviews to me.
42:24
Madeleine Cleary: Excellent.
42:24
Madeleine Cleary: So you only get good feedback.
42:26
Madeleine Cleary: Um, what is the worst question you've ever been asked as an author?
42:34
Tina Strachan: Um, how much money do you make?
42:36
Tina Strachan: Do you get paid?
42:37
Tina Strachan: Questions along those lines.
42:39
Tina Strachan: How many
42:39
Toni Jordan: books have you sold?
42:40
Toni Jordan: Is it a bestseller yet?
42:43
Toni Jordan: Um, h- um, if I give you an idea and you write it, will you share the money with me?
42:50
Madeleine Cleary: Really?
42:51
Madeleine Cleary: What did you say?
42:53
Tina Strachan: I say,
42:53
Toni Jordan: Uh, man, the, the idea isn't the problem.
42:56
Toni Jordan: It's the writing that's the problem."
42:59
Madeleine Cleary: Okay, last question.
43:01
Madeleine Cleary: What has been the highlight of your writing career so far?
43:05
Tina Strachan: Meeting amazing people and doing wonderful things like this is, like, just the funnest part of it, I think.
43:10
Tina Strachan: I mean, writing's at the crux of it'cause I love doing it, but, um, yeah, this is just this ultimate, you know, bonus that I didn't count on.
43:17
Natasha Rai: Feeling the love from readers and getting those beautiful messages, the best thing.
43:22
Toni Jordan: E- every, like, the, the people and, you know, we have enough data now to show that reading is the thing that is the most protective for people's mental health, the most protective for...
43:35
Toni Jordan: predictive for success levels in life and happiness in life.
43:38
Toni Jordan: And it, a- anything that, it, it encourages me to do more reading and introduces me to more books.
43:44
Madeleine Cleary: I think that deserves an applause.
43:45
Madeleine Cleary: What do you think?
43:47
Madeleine Cleary: Beautiful It's your turn now to ask the questions of us.
43:54
Madeleine Cleary: So I believe there'll be some mics roving around perhaps, um, and if not, we can...
44:01
Madeleine Cleary: you can yell it out, and I will repeat the question.
44:04
Madeleine Cleary: Um, okay, please, we're gonna sit in silence otherwise.
44:07
Madeleine Cleary: Okay, Ally.
44:11
Madeleine Cleary: I think there's a mic coming for you.
44:13
Madeleine Cleary: It's coming.
44:13
Madeleine Cleary: Excellent.
44:15
Madeleine Cleary: Should've given you the heads-up, Jess.
44:18
Madeleine Cleary: We have Ally Parker in the audience.
44:20
Madeleine Cleary: Hi, Ally.
44:22
Madeleine Cleary: Bestselling Australian author.
44:22
Madeleine Cleary: Hiya, Ally.
44:23
Alli Parker: I thought I'd kick off the first one'cause the first one's always the scariest for everyone else.
44:26
Alli Parker: Um, but given this is NF Over The Pod, what is your top tip for emerging writers?
44:32
Madeleine Cleary: Ooh, and we'll ask, we'll ask Tash and Tina, Natasha and Tina, because we will save Toni's to the end.
44:40
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
44:41
Tina Strachan: Okay.
44:41
Tina Strachan: Um, thank you.
44:42
Tina Strachan: I should've been prepared for that, right, Ally?
44:43
Tina Strachan: Like, we do this at every single episode.
44:46
Tina Strachan: Top tip, um, my gosh, is...
44:48
Tina Strachan: and I think it's going back to something that Toni's already touched on, the r- forget about the getting published thing, just do the writing.
44:56
Tina Strachan: It will happen eventually if you're just doing it for the right reasons.
44:59
Tina Strachan: Write for the love of it and, you know, it, it, it may happen for you and it may not, but if you're doing it because you love it, it can never really be a bad thing.
45:08
Tina Strachan: So yeah, write for the joy and forget everything else.
45:11
Natasha Rai: Um, find your friends and your community because writing can be really lonely and scary, so when you have other people you can ask and tell and cry, that's really great.
45:23
Toni Jordan: And my answer is really the same.
45:25
Toni Jordan: All you have to do is fall in love with the process.
45:27
Toni Jordan: If you fall in love with the process, you wanna do it more, you wanna get better at it, you wanna learn about how to do it better, and everything comes from that.
45:35
Toni Jordan: If you, if you fall in love with writing, um, then everything else just falls into place.
45:40
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
45:41
Madeleine Cleary: Mine's very practical.
45:43
Madeleine Cleary: Um, buy yourself a c- couch, a desk couch, um, thing, an office thing, and you can put your laptop in it so you don't get a sore neck.
45:52
Madeleine Cleary: Right.
45:52
Madeleine Cleary: Very practical.
45:53
Madeleine Cleary: If you need advice on that, let me know.
45:56
Madeleine Cleary: Um, it has saved a lot of physio fees.
45:58
Madeleine Cleary: Um, that's my top tip for today.
46:01
Madeleine Cleary: Excellent.
46:01
Madeleine Cleary: Yep.
46:02
Madeleine Cleary: Um, questions.
46:04
Madeleine Cleary: We've got Marian Taff at the...
46:05
Madeleine Cleary: oh, no- Who was first?
46:10
Madeleine Cleary: I'm happy with-
46:11
Tina Strachan: I've got the mic, so
46:13
Madeleine Cleary: Okay, Marian's happy.
46:14
Madeleine Cleary: Everybody-
46:15
Tina Strachan: Hi, Marian.
46:16
Tina Strachan: Hi.
46:17
Tina Strachan: Um, I was just wondering if you could each share sort of your biggest hurdle or the biggest challenge that you've faced in your careers so far, and, um, yeah, how you got over, over that, whether it's your own self-doubt or something going terribly wrong.
46:31
Tina Strachan: I don't, I, I don't mind, just biggest challenge.
46:35
Madeleine Cleary: Who wants to answer first?
46:37
Toni Jordan: Um, I think my big- biggest challenge was just accepting that I am gonna do something different every time.
46:43
Toni Jordan: This has been the biggest hurdle, um, in terms of publishers and in terms of bookstores because every one of my books has been different and, um, so that's kind of slightly counterintuitive to the way the industry likes to work.
46:58
Toni Jordan: The industry likes to develop brands and have the jackets all speak to each other and know what a kind of style that you're in, and I've just only recently began to accept that, okay, every single thing is gonna be different.
47:12
Toni Jordan: So my last book was a coming-of-age set in Brisbane in the 1970s, and my next book is speculative fiction about a dead scientist who comes back to life.
47:21
Toni Jordan: And I'm just gonna have to deal with that, and my publ- I've said to my publisher,"You're just gonna have to deal with that." So I think coming to terms with that's who I am is just the thing.
47:34
Tina Strachan: Um, I've, I've...
47:34
Tina Strachan: I think I was just gonna say, like, the, the sort of mind tricks that your mind plays on you when you're going through that whole process, especially, um, you know, when I was writing, um, my books in the"What a Zoo" series, and just th- having this ridiculous thought that I'm gonna have all these kids come up to me and be like,"You said the wrong fact about the giraffe." Like,"Giraffes are supposed to have, like, seven of these particular medications for their arthritis." Like, like a kid is g- like anyone is gonna look that up.
48:01
Tina Strachan: And so here I am, I'm like, you know, and rightly so,'cause I wanted to make sure it was all correct and liaising with vets from, like, all over the world and all my friends who are vets and making sure, you know,"Is this exactly the right medication?" So that it was factually correct in my kids' middle grade book.
48:13
Tina Strachan: Like you know, it's good to be correct, but yeah, like what are...
48:16
Tina Strachan: You know, you just kinda get in this thing and it's of like, you know, people maybe having this feedback towards you, which we were talking about earlier today, and I've had none, I'll have you know.
48:24
Tina Strachan: So I was either really correct or I think it just doesn't happen anyway like that But yeah, just the silly mind games I think that it plays on your mind when you're writing.
48:33
Natasha Rai: Uh, I think for me it's been, um how long it...
48:38
Natasha Rai: Not how long it took to get published, but towards the end, just before I got my first contract book deal, um, I was getting more and more personalized feedback, but it kind of ended there and there wasn't anything I could go back with because they were like,"Yep, this...
48:52
Natasha Rai: Think about this, but we don't want it." So it was like that feeling of, well, I, I know I must be close because they're taking the time to tell me what's not working, so how do I actually then ac- bridge that final bit of getting to that place?
49:09
Madeleine Cleary: Um, for me, I think came last year when everything exciting was happening.
49:14
Madeleine Cleary: You know, the book's come out, I'm doing festivals, I'm, um, you know, appearing at all these fun things, I'm meeting all these people, but I went through this probably three or four-month period, and for those who know me well, of burnout, absolute burnout.
49:27
Madeleine Cleary: I was getting really, really sick, and I think Tanya Scott's in the audience.
49:31
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
49:32
Madeleine Cleary: And Tanya and I were at the Bad City Crime Festival, and I had conjunctivitis, a throat infection, a sinus infection, but you know, you still have to show up.
49:41
Madeleine Cleary: Um, I also, you know, was working full time and trying to balance everything, and I hit absolute burnout and I think trying to...
49:49
Madeleine Cleary: But, but at the same time, all these good things are happening and you s- you, you, you tell yourself,"But I should be feeling happy and, and grateful for all this, and I shouldn't complain." Um, and so, so I think giving yourself permission to rest is really important.
50:02
Madeleine Cleary: I think I'm trying to learn how to do that, um, and I think that was the toughest thing for me.
50:07
Madeleine Cleary: It's just that mindset, I think, so yeah.
50:10
Madeleine Cleary: Great question, Marion.
50:11
Madeleine Cleary: Thank you.
50:12
Madeleine Cleary: Who else?
50:12
Madeleine Cleary: And we've got a gentleman over here.
50:14
Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
50:14
Audience Member 1: Hi.
50:14
Audience Member 1: Thank you so much.
50:16
Audience Member 1: Um, I lo- I've learnt a lot listening to you all.
50:18
Audience Member 1: Um, I suppose this is for e- for all of you to answer if, if that's okay.
50:22
Audience Member 1: Um, I was wondering, especially after being published, you talked a lot about, Toni, about like, you talked a bit about, um, like judgments and, and beliefs popping in, in the process of writing, and I'm wondering, especially after getting published, do you ever have to battle with the conflict of going, okay, thinking about what they might want versus what you write?
50:42
Audience Member 1: If that makes sense.
50:43
Toni Jordan: Yeah.
50:44
Toni Jordan: This is a really good question, and it ties in a way to Marion's question.
50:48
Toni Jordan: So I started writing, my first book was a romantic comedy, and so the second book I wrote, I wanted to make also a romantic comedy, not a book that I'm really in love with all these years later because it wasn't really the book that I really wanted to write.
51:04
Toni Jordan: So, um, doing what you want for you rather than being guided by a publisher to me was a really important thing to learn, yes
51:14
Natasha Rai: Well, I'm still very early in my career, so I'm still feeling very lucky that I'm not thinking about a potential reader or an audience.
51:24
Natasha Rai: I'm still in the lovely phase of just writing what I love and what I'm- brings me pleasure
51:30
Tina Strachan: Yeah, I think that's a very real thing, and it makes sense for...
51:34
Tina Strachan: And you can't help that just creeps into your mind, doesn't it?
51:36
Tina Strachan: Like,'cause you want to sign more books, and so you think,"What do they want?" And, and that is the tricky thing, and I, I think it's never good, um, and it will stifle your writing and your creativity, um, even though it's a logical thing to think.
51:48
Tina Strachan: So, and ultimately, writing something for someone else is fine if you're really enjoying it too, but if you're not, it's...
51:55
Tina Strachan: Like, you spend a long time with that book, you know?
51:57
Tina Strachan: It's a long, long time, several years, and if you're not enjoying it, it's gonna be a rough couple of years, and you won't love it, which is kinda sad.
52:03
Tina Strachan: Um, yeah, so I think just writing what you want to write and just sticking with it and, you know, if that particular publisher doesn't want it, then maybe someone else will, but it's important to stay true to what-
52:13
Toni Jordan: And, and if I could just say one more thing, which is, um, you can't really catch fads because by the time you see it out there in the bookstore and you think,"Well, it's gonna..." You write it, you see something that's taking off and you go,"I'm gonna write one of those." By the time it takes you eight months to write it, another two or f- four months to sell it, then another year to edit it and get ready, it's gonna be two years from the fact, from when you first got the idea, and that idea is then over.
52:39
Toni Jordan: So you can't really market time.
52:42
Toni Jordan: You, you can only do what you s- wanna do yourself.
52:46
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
52:46
Madeleine Cleary: Um, publishers really like you to stick in your lane, unless you're Tony Jordan, of course.
52:52
Toni Jordan: I've still, I've still had a lot of difficult conversations with them where they're like,"What is this?"
52:58
Madeleine Cleary: And I suppose it's because they also don't want you to confuse your readers as well.
53:02
Madeleine Cleary: Absolutely.
53:02
Madeleine Cleary: Like, they, they want you to- Yeah be consistent.
53:05
Madeleine Cleary: Um, and I was in this situation where, uh, my debut novel's historical fiction, um, but I just found this passion for writing this contemporary domestic thriller.
53:15
Madeleine Cleary: Um, and so I wrote the book, um, and it got shortlisted for, like, a major pri- unpublished manuscript prize.
53:21
Madeleine Cleary: I got all that, I got an agent from it.
53:23
Madeleine Cleary: Um, but, but because I had this historical fiction book coming, we actually just shelved it, um, and I signed a contract for two more historical fiction.
53:31
Madeleine Cleary: So even though, you know, it, I loved it, and it's something I would hopefully one day p- wanna publish'cause it meant- means a lot to me, I put a lot of my heart into it, it, it has to stay in the drawer, um, for, for a period and until you sort of build up the trust with your readers, I suppose, the people that will purchase your books because this is also a job.
53:50
Madeleine Cleary: You know, this is something where you earn income from.
53:53
Madeleine Cleary: It's a business.
53:53
Madeleine Cleary: As much as we love it, it is a business, and you do have to be, I suppose, have a, have, have a strategy behind it as well.
53:59
Toni Jordan: Yeah, and there, there are other s- there are strategies you can employ.
54:02
Toni Jordan: I'm thinking about Rebecca Kuang, who writes literary fiction under Rebecca Kuang and fantasy under R.F.
54:07
Toni Jordan: Kuang.
54:08
Toni Jordan: So there are, you know, ways to delineate yourself in the market if that's your interest.
54:12
Madeleine Cleary: And I'm not saying that I didn't want to write historical fiction.
54:15
Madeleine Cleary: If I didn't wanna wr- if I didn't have ideas for, for those next two books that really gave me a lot of passion, then I wouldn't have done it Um, because, you know, you, you do have to have, be still passionate about the work that you do.
54:26
Madeleine Cleary: So yeah, it's a great question.
54:28
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
54:28
Tina Strachan: 'Cause sometimes the books have a mind of their own, and if they wanna be written, they just will get written no matter what- That's right and even if they're not in your right genre, but-
54:35
Madeleine Cleary: You get haunted by them, don't you?
54:37
Madeleine Cleary: It's very woo woo.
54:38
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
54:39
Madeleine Cleary: Um, questions, we've probably got time for maybe one more.
54:44
Madeleine Cleary: Oh, yes, or maybe one or two actually.
54:46
Audience Member: I apologize, this is a bit of how long is a piece of string, but how do you all determine your chapter length?
54:54
Tina Strachan: Oh, ask me'cause I love structure.
54:56
Tina Strachan: Um, and I love the math in writing.
54:58
Tina Strachan: If anyone would like to chat about that later, I'm all over it.
55:01
Tina Strachan: Um, these girls don't want to talk about the math in writing but I love it.
55:05
Tina Strachan: Um- Oh, I
55:05
Toni Jordan: l- I love it, too.
55:06
Tina Strachan: Oh, good.
55:07
Tina Strachan: Oh, goodie.
55:07
Tina Strachan: We'll talk later.
55:08
Tina Strachan: Um, so there is math in writing, I think.
55:11
Tina Strachan: So you could go down that, um, route, I guess.
55:13
Tina Strachan: And I guess it just depends on the age of your reader and, um, also the genre as well.
55:19
Tina Strachan: I think it can change up throughout the whole entire book d- you know, for pacing and things like that, so you've got all that to consider.
55:25
Tina Strachan: Um, you know, I th- I...
55:27
Tina Strachan: There's always been, like, this magical number that I've sort of h- read about of, you know, about 1,500 words makes a nice kind of sweet little chapter.
55:35
Tina Strachan: For, for younger kids, you can go, um, less than that.
55:39
Tina Strachan: You know, it all depends, I guess, on your genre as well, and your readers, like I said.
55:42
Tina Strachan: But, um, yeah, there's, there's a math behind it, and you can work it out by how many words you think your book's supposed to be and, um- Yeah and what, yeah, age group it's for.
55:51
Tina Strachan: Um-
55:52
Toni Jordan: So I go a little bit longer.
55:53
Toni Jordan: I go 3,000 words, between 2,500 and 3,000 words.
55:56
Toni Jordan: L- let me just say it's, there's no rules about this.
55:59
Toni Jordan: It's as long as you want, and my third book, the chapters were, like, 10,000 words long.
56:04
Toni Jordan: There was only eight.
56:05
Toni Jordan: So...
56:06
Toni Jordan: No, nine.
56:07
Toni Jordan: So you can, you can do as many as you...
56:10
Toni Jordan: It, it, there's no, uh, again, as long as a piece of string.
56:13
Toni Jordan: But in my head, I aim for between 2,500 and 3,000 in the first draft while I'm going forward.
56:19
Toni Jordan: And then at the first draft, I look back, and then if it seems like it's broken at a natural place, I move it because I don't want the place to be an exhale point so that the,"Oh, that's the end of that chapter.
56:34
Toni Jordan: I'll put it down there and go to sleep." I, I'm not looking for that.
56:37
Toni Jordan: I'm looking for un-put-down-able.
56:39
Toni Jordan: So generally in the first draft, it ends in a, in a normal, natural place where it would end, and then I'm gonna move it, um, in the second draft, like a few paragraphs that way or a few paragraphs that way because I want them to go,"Oh, I'll just read through this chapter," and once they've read through that chapter they go,"Well, I'll just go to the end of the next chapter." Like, I'm trying to trick people to stay in it, especially for the first half.
56:59
Toni Jordan: Second half doesn't matt- matter that much.
57:02
Toni Jordan: I feel to myself, if they've given me half a book and they're not in it, then just let them go.
57:06
Toni Jordan: They're not, you know, they're not your reader.
57:09
Toni Jordan: But, um, so on the way through, first draft, I, I...
57:12
Toni Jordan: it's about 2,500 to 3,000, and then I manipulate it after that.
57:17
Natasha Rai: Wow.
57:17
Natasha Rai: Wow, I have literally learned a new technique in writing now.
57:21
Natasha Rai: Like, the way I write my chapters is actually unhinged.
57:24
Natasha Rai: I basically just write scenes, and I'm like,"Yeah, that'll do." And then I write- Yeah, but I, I think that's actually a thing though, isn't it?
57:30
Natasha Rai: I start a new scene.
57:30
Madeleine Cleary: Like,
57:30
Tina Strachan: yeah,
57:30
Madeleine Cleary: like you can
57:31
Natasha Rai: write in scenes.
57:31
Natasha Rai: But that makes so much sense.
57:33
Natasha Rai: I'm gonna do that from now on.
57:34
Natasha Rai: Do that
57:36
Madeleine Cleary: I would have no idea how long my chapters are.
57:38
Madeleine Cleary: Me neither.
57:38
Madeleine Cleary: I mean, I'm a pantser, so I'm just- Not a clue.
57:40
Madeleine Cleary: You're a pantser too, Toni, aren't you?
57:41
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
57:42
Madeleine Cleary: But it's very structured.
57:43
Madeleine Cleary: I have no idea what's going on.
57:45
Madeleine Cleary: Marian actually, Marian has an in- You knew I was gonna say this, didn't you?
57:48
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, I think I did.
57:48
Madeleine Cleary: Marian doesn't write in chapters.
57:50
Madeleine Cleary: She just writes in stream-of-writing and then has to try and slice it up.
57:54
Madeleine Cleary: Everyone's different.
57:55
Madeleine Cleary: For 100,000
57:55
Tina Strachan: words.
57:56
Tina Strachan: Yeah.
57:56
Tina Strachan: Yeah, yeah.
57:57
Madeleine Cleary: That, that's right.
57:58
Madeleine Cleary: And, um, I was talking with Andrea Mara, who's a crime and thriller writer, and her pa- her chapters are like th- three pages, you know?
58:06
Madeleine Cleary: So probably 500 words because she's trying to get you to ke- and then she's got a hook at each one and So it's all different, isn't it?
58:12
Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
58:13
Tina Strachan: So that's really probably not helpful for you, is it?
58:15
Tina Strachan: We all had different answers.
58:16
Tina Strachan: But Toni's taught writing for a very long time- That's right so go with what
58:19
Madeleine Cleary: she says.
58:19
Madeleine Cleary: Trust Toni.
58:19
Madeleine Cleary: Go with, go with Toni.
58:20
Madeleine Cleary: Trust Toni.
58:20
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah.
58:21
Madeleine Cleary: She's our agony aunt for a reason.
58:22
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, yeah.
58:23
Madeleine Cleary: Um, we probably have time for one last question if there is Okay, Mandy.
58:31
Madeleine Cleary: Um, oh, actually we've got the mic coming
58:36
Speaker 10: Um, thoughts on, um, self-publishing versus traditional.
58:44
Madeleine Cleary: Do you have any thoughts, Toni?
58:45
Toni Jordan: I do have thoughts.
58:46
Toni Jordan: Um, I think often the reason why people turn to self-publishing is, um...
58:53
Toni Jordan: There, there's two reasons.
58:55
Toni Jordan: First, there are people who like to be in control of more of the process, because when you're with a traditional pros- um, publisher, you are in control of almost zero of the process.
59:07
Toni Jordan: You have very-- They have-- They are a big company, and your part is to deliver the manuscript, and they will listen to your feedback on the jacket and on the title and on, uh, a marketing strategy and a publicity strategy and a, a distribution strategy, but you don't actually have any real ability to influence any of those things.
59:28
Toni Jordan: Even in your contract, it was, will mostly say, um,"Will be consulted on jacket design," things like that.
59:34
Toni Jordan: So it's, it's some people want to, um, have more control in it, or sometimes they get frustrated because of the number of rejections that they've had.
59:45
Toni Jordan: So they're two very different motivations.
59:49
Toni Jordan: Um, if you-- If the reason that you're thinking about it is that you've had a lot of rejections, you need to have a pretty good idea about why they're wrong, and they are sometimes wrong.
59:59
Toni Jordan: Like, they're not right all the time, and there's been some very famous examples in history where they've been wrong.
1:00:04
Toni Jordan: But you need to think,"Well, they're wrong because of this." Otherwise, you will spend a lot of money, and you'll find out that they're right.
1:00:12
Toni Jordan: If, if you decide you want it because you want more input, you wanna design your own, um, jacket, you wanna have your, you know, your own distribution strategy for bookstores, you just have to be aware that's a lot of work that you have to do.
1:00:26
Toni Jordan: You have to become all those publishing professionals.
1:00:30
Toni Jordan: So some people find it immensely fulfilling, and it adds so much to their writing experience that they see this project through to the very end, to the shelf, and I'm delighted for them.
1:00:41
Toni Jordan: It's the really the right choice.
1:00:43
Toni Jordan: But some people do it because they think it's a quick way to make money, and I...
1:00:47
Toni Jordan: It's not
1:00:50
Madeleine Cleary: And the only thing I'd add to that is it might work too if you've got a profile, an existing profile and yeah, that, that all helps.
1:00:57
Madeleine Cleary: Yeah, for sure.
1:00:57
Madeleine Cleary: And if
1:00:58
Toni Jordan: you've got a, a niche subject If you write a, um, a novel about, uh, the world's best crocheter and how she became a crochet thing, and you are the president of the Melbourne Crochet Society, and you take it to Random House and they go,"There's no market for this." And you go,"Well, I know that there is." You will have a better job at selling that crochet book through your connections, through your own networks.
1:01:23
Toni Jordan: You will have a better idea how to market it than they will.
1:01:25
Toni Jordan: Sometimes you're gonna be better at that job than they will, but it really depends on what that book is.
1:01:31
Madeleine Cleary: Excellent.
1:01:32
Madeleine Cleary: Thank you for the questions.
1:01:33
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so just to close up, we started this podcast, uh, two years ago to inspire and motivate emerging writers.
1:01:40
Madeleine Cleary: Two years, more than 100 episodes later, it's absolute privilege to come together this afternoon, um, for something that's really, really special to us.
1:01:49
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so thank you everybody for joining us this afternoon, and a huge thank you as well to Toni Jordan, our amazing agony aunt.
1:01:56
Madeleine Cleary: So please show your appreciation.
1:02:02
Madeleine Cleary: Um, Toni, do you have any last final thoughts that you'd like to leave us on?
1:02:07
Madeleine Cleary: Usually we ask for a top tip, we already got your top tip, but is there anything that you'd like to leave us?
1:02:11
Madeleine Cleary: Uh, I
1:02:11
Toni Jordan: will give you another top tip and, and, um, this is something that I used to tell all my classes when I taught creative writing, is that I, I advise people to keep two books on their desk.
1:02:23
Toni Jordan: One is the book that they really wish they'd written, the book that...
1:02:26
Toni Jordan: Their heart book that they look at and think to themselves,"If I could write anything half as good as this, I would die happy." Put that on your desk.
1:02:34
Toni Jordan: And also put on your desk a book that was well-received, well-reviewed, maybe a prize-winner that you think is a piece of shit.
1:02:42
Toni Jordan: So you have both those books on your desk, and then you can look at this piece of shit and you can go,"If that piece of shit got published, then I can get published." And you can look at your, your love, your heart book and think,"Okay, maybe I'm not quite there, but I'm in between here." Like,"There is room for me, there is room for my stories, there is room for my voice, and, and I am adding something to the world by contributing it."
1:03:05
Madeleine Cleary: Um, thank you, Toni, that's brilliant Thank you for making this episode explicit, and the last sentence as well.
1:03:15
Madeleine Cleary: That was wonderful.
1:03:16
Madeleine Cleary: Um, thanks so much everyone for your engagement with us.
1:03:19
Madeleine Cleary: Um, if you've...
1:03:21
Madeleine Cleary: Ooh, that's Tina's phone going off.
1:03:22
Madeleine Cleary: Good timing.
1:03:23
Madeleine Cleary: Um, if you've, um, brought books along for Toni, we'll be out in the foyer.
1:03:27
Madeleine Cleary: Um, so if you would like to- for Toni to sign your books, um, just bring them.
1:03:31
Madeleine Cleary: I'm sure Toni is happy to sign them.
1:03:33
Madeleine Cleary: Um, and thank you so much everyone.
1:03:35
Madeleine Cleary: And this is the end of the National Writers' Conference, day one.
1:03:51
Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
1:03:55
Tina Strachan: If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast