Latest / Money And Wealth With John Hope Bryant / Michael Ellison on Overcoming Poverty, Wealth Creation, and AI's Future

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Michael Ellison on Overcoming Poverty, Wealth Creation, and AI's Future · Money And Wealth With John Hope Bryant

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien, a production
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: of the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeartRadio. Yo, this
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: is John O'Brien, and this is the Money and Wealth
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Podcast Series on Black Effect Network on iHeartRadio. And this
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  Speaker 1: is Money and Wealth Season 3. Now, you know I
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: normally do these podcasts by myself, just me running my mouth.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: And somehow you guys have made this podcast a top
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  Speaker 1: 75 podcast for entrepreneurship in the world.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you. And top 250 podcast for business.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Almost in every continent in the world. Thank you once again.
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  Speaker 1: That's not about me. That's relevance to you, the Vee.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: This is about not just PhDs, but PhDs too. This
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  Speaker 1: is about giving you information that's actually useful to change
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  Speaker 1: and transform your life. And when I bring a guest on,
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  Speaker 1: you better believe, I believe that they are one of
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  Speaker 1: these game changers. Michael Ellison is one of those people.
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  Speaker 1: I just talked to my brother, Van Jones, who's, You know,
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  Speaker 1: most of you know from CNN fame and whatever. I
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  Speaker 1: know him as somebody who's gone to MIT and a
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  Speaker 1: range of other places and understands technology extraordinarily well. I
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  Speaker 1: know he's an underground brilliance and he's co-chair.
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  Speaker 2: With me in Hope AI.
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  Speaker 1: And when I mentioned this next guest to Van, he
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  Speaker 1: got very excited.
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  Speaker 2: To have him on. Michael Ellison.
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  Speaker 1: Chief executive officer and co-founder of CodePath.org. Now, I'm going
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: to say this because if you're listening to this in
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  Speaker 1: your car or gardening or working out in the gym,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: you're not seeing this on replay on a visual platform, YouTube, Instagram,
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  Speaker 1: or someplace else. When he starts talking, you won't know
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  Speaker 1: where he's from because he's just, well, articulate.
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  Speaker 2: He's just Well-educated. He's just smart. But I will say
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  Speaker 2: he's of African-American descent. He's of African descent.
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  Speaker 1: And talking to him, I can tell you, while he's
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  Speaker 1: not black for a living, and nor should he be,
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  Speaker 1: he's very proud of that heritage. But it's not going
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  Speaker 1: to be obvious from his discussion because he's one of
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  Speaker 1: these tech geniuses that happens to be roaming around in
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  Speaker 1: a human world.
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  Speaker 3: CodePath.
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  Speaker 1: It's a nonprofit that trains first-generation and low-income college students
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  Speaker 1: for careers in software engineering, and I would say also
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  Speaker 1: now in AI. The conversation today centers on talent access, yes, AI,
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  Speaker 1: and building ownership, not just income, in America's tech economy.
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  Speaker 1: As co-founder and CEO of CodePath, as C-O-D-E-P-A-T-H, the nonprofit
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  Speaker 1: reprogramming higher education to build the first AI native generation
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  Speaker 1: of software engineers, chief technology officers called CTOs, and founders.
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  Speaker 1: Let me put this in another way, people. He's as
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  Speaker 1: big in this space as Operation Hope is as big
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  Speaker 1: in financial literacy. Operation Hope is the largest financial literacy
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  Speaker 1: coaching organization in America. By the way, there's a video
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  Speaker 1: out this week that is our report card quarterly. You
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: should check that out. is all our stats, our facts,
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  Speaker 1: our offices, all that stuff, our financials, our transparent information. Well,
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  Speaker 1: Michael has that side of pedigree, that kind of pedigree
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  Speaker 1: with this organization, just in the technology sector, streets to suites.
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  Speaker 1: CodePath is the largest educator of college computer science students
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  Speaker 1: in the country. With students at 1,000 plus colleges and universities,
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  Speaker 1: partners including Anthropic, Google, Microsoft, Andreessen Horowitz, Base 10 Partners,
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  Speaker 1: Blue Meridian Partners, Balmer Group, et cetera, et cetera. Before CodePath,
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  Speaker 1: built two nonprofits with three tech startups starting at 19.
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  Speaker 1: This is Michael. So he's an entrepreneur and a builder.
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  Speaker 1: And he acquired, well, I guess one of the companies
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  Speaker 1: he was involved with, acquired Twilio for $ 3.
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  Speaker 2: 2 billion.
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  Speaker 1: He'll have to talk to me about it. So he's
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  Speaker 1: a white combinator, black founder, who's my friend, Sam Aubin.
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  Speaker 1: So we'll have to get into what that $ 3. 2 billion
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  Speaker 1: is about. He's a Schmidt Futures Innovation Fellow, an NAACP
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  Speaker 1: industry changemaker, fast company named CodePath, one of the world's most.
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  Speaker 2: Innovative companies in 2024. So this is a bad brother.
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  Speaker 2: Here's the top line.
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  Speaker 1: $ 1 billion cumulative first year earnings generated by CodePath alumni,
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  Speaker 1: a 2025 milestone.
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  Speaker 2: I'll say that again.
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  Speaker 1: $ 1 billion in cumulative first-year earnings generated by CodePath alumni.
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  Speaker 1: You want to know your degree is relevant and worth something?
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  Speaker 1: Here you go.
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  Speaker 4: $ 95, 000.
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  Speaker 1: That's the median first-year salary for CodePath graduates. Roughly $ 20, 000
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  Speaker 1: above traditional CS program peers. 62% of CodePath graduates land
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  Speaker 1: full-time technical roles. 68% land technical internships. 20,000 plus, that's
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  Speaker 1: the CodePath students gaining access to cloud AI tools in
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  Speaker 1: 2026 through an Android partnership. 47% CodePath enrollment growth in 2025,
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  Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. Welcome, Michael.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 2: Tell me your backstory, man.
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  Speaker 1: How did growing up with poverty and homelessness if I
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  Speaker 1: got that right, and if that's the case, you and
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  Speaker 1: I both share that, because I grew up in California,
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  Speaker 1: South Central LA, and was homeless when I was 18
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  Speaker 1: years of age in South Central Los Angeles. How does
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  Speaker 1: it shape the way you think about talent and opportunity
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  Speaker 1: and wealth today? And when somebody looks at you, I
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  Speaker 1: don't really think they see somebody.
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  Speaker 2: Who is poor or homeless. Did I get that wrong?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, not today.
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  Speaker 2: Not today. Well, of course. Was that your back story?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, so I grew up initially small towns,
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  Speaker 4: rural Maine. When I was five years old, my father
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  Speaker 4: was incarcerated. We're in and out of homelessness between five
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  Speaker 4: to 12. And it was always tough. And I think
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  Speaker 4: probably as a lot of folks listening can appreciate, you
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  Speaker 4: feel powerless. You feel like there's nothing that you can
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  Speaker 4: do that can get you out of the situation that
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  Speaker 4: you're in. And that always stuck with me with what
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  Speaker 4: can I do? How can I do things differently that
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  Speaker 4: then could give me an unfair advantage to succeed? It
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  Speaker 4: felt like the off fact against me. And so I
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  Speaker 4: knew I needed to try to pursue a different path.
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  Speaker 4: And then that's what ultimately led me into entrepreneurship and
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  Speaker 4: all the rest. But, you know, I just can't carry
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  Speaker 4: that with me around. You know, you feel powerless sometimes.
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  Speaker 4: How can you ensure that you get access to the
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  Speaker 4: opportunity or you're the one that is now put in control?
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  Speaker 2: If you're not at the table, you're on the menu.
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  Speaker 3: For sure.
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  Speaker 1: So if the topic today that I'd like to introduce,
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  Speaker 1: I'm trying to, by the way, demystify artificial intelligence. I'm
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  Speaker 1: trying to also get people off of the fear mountain.
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  Speaker 1: and get them on the progress hill, the road to
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  Speaker 1: prosperity so that they don't miss this boat.
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  Speaker 2: There are many things that could be concerned.
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  Speaker 1: About AI, but there's a lot of powerful things to
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  Speaker 1: learn from AI and to build and to gain from AI.
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  Speaker 1: I say to people, your job's not going to be
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  Speaker 1: replaced directly by AI. Your job just may be replaced
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  Speaker 1: by somebody who can use AI. And there'll be more
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  Speaker 1: jobs on the back end than on the front, although
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  Speaker 1: there will be job loss on the front. And I
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  Speaker 1: want to focus on the new path to wealth here AI, code,
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  Speaker 1: and the future of opportunity. So in the industrial economy,
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  Speaker 1: opportunity followed physical capital. In the knowledge economy, it followed education.
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  Speaker 1: In the AI economy, opportunity increasingly follows skill, access, networks,
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  Speaker 1: relationship capital, and the ability to build.
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  Speaker 2: So how does.
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  Speaker 1: what your background taught you, which I guess is a
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  Speaker 1: reflection of you from, you know, came from so high
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  Speaker 1: and low and you go to so high. So the
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  Speaker 1: distance travel is a learning lesson for you that anybody
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  Speaker 1: can do this. So Mike, this experience of poverty, which
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  Speaker 1: most people would not guess is a theme in your life.
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  Speaker 1: Looking at you, you look like, you know, you look
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  Speaker 1: like the American dream and you sound like it.
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  Speaker 2: And you've done these big deals.
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  Speaker 1: I want to hear what you did with my friend
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  Speaker 1: Sam Altman at Y Combinator here in a moment. But
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  Speaker 1: let me back up a little bit because people often
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  Speaker 1: can't relate. I want to have powerful people and well-known
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  Speaker 1: people and influential people and CEO.
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  Speaker 2: Yes. I also just want to show black genius.
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  Speaker 1: I just want to show people who are making smart,
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  Speaker 1: sexy at scale and without any pomp and ceremony are
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  Speaker 1: killing the game. And I think you're one of those people.
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  Speaker 1: So that confidence has to come from somewhere. And, I
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  Speaker 1: think that your early childhood experience of poverty and homelessness,
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  Speaker 1: as it affected me, it grounded you. I'm saying this,
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  Speaker 1: but I'm, I'm asking the question, but I'm really, I'm saying,
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  Speaker 1: making the statement, but really asking a question.
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  Speaker 2: But I don't know your story. I presume it's very
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  Speaker 2: similar to mine that it.
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  Speaker 1: Once you can't fall from the floor. So once you've
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  Speaker 1: experienced that, you know, the only place to go is up.
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  Speaker 1: And you also know that God made you, you know, amazing.
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  Speaker 1: Didn't you define your path to opportunity? So, For me,
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  Speaker 1: it was financial literacy and free enterprise and ownership and
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  Speaker 1: capitalism as a way to set people free and myself.
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  Speaker 1: But for you, it was technology. So when did you
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  Speaker 1: first realize that technology could change the game for you
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  Speaker 1: and become an economic trajectory for you? And did that
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  Speaker 1: realization give you confidence?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I was actually a bit of an
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  Speaker 3: accidental entrepreneur.
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  Speaker 4: So when I was in college, I was trying to
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  Speaker 4: figure out what I could do to stand out or
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  Speaker 4: get ahead. I was always obsessed with how could I
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  Speaker 4: find leverage or how could I find the competitive advantage
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  Speaker 4: for myself.
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  Speaker 3: That led me to trying.
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  Speaker 4: To emulate and work with the most talented students I
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  Speaker 4: could find. And I followed one of those talented students
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  Speaker 4: to start an afterschool club. That after-school club ended up
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  Speaker 4: intersecting with my core passion, which is helping people from
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  Speaker 4: similar backgrounds. And we just became incredibly frustrated because we
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  Speaker 4: kept trying to work with the schools and low-income high
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  Speaker 4: schools in the area where I went to school around Boston.
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  Speaker 4: And we found limitations. We didn't have enough money. We
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  Speaker 4: couldn't hire enough people. We couldn't do the depth of
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  Speaker 4: work that we wanted to do. In order for us
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  Speaker 4: to try to do more, we just incrementally thought step-by-step
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  Speaker 4: and it led to us needing to start an organization,
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  Speaker 4: talk to folks and try to raise money. Now, going
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  Speaker 4: back to the technology piece, at the time we saw
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  Speaker 4: companies scaling with really tiny teams.
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  Speaker 3: We saw Facebook and we heard stories.
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  Speaker 4: Around Google, and it really inspired me to try to
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  Speaker 4: think about how we could do more with less and
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  Speaker 4: think quite a bit bigger. The incredible unlock for me
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  Speaker 4: came from connecting with people. I would, in order to
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  Speaker 4: try to raise money and build resources for us, I
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  Speaker 4: would connect and reach out to people that are working
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  Speaker 4: at financial institutions and.
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  Speaker 3: Building these networks, raising money.
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  Speaker 4: There was a moment where faculty members, professors started to
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  Speaker 4: ask me if they could work for me.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm like 19 years.
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  Speaker 2: Back, back, back up. So, so, so you came from
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  Speaker 2: a poor neighborhood, right? Yeah. No one gave you, no
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  Speaker 2: one gave you. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: No one where beyond four.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So poor you couldn't afford the O R yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And PO PO and you did not have a wealthy
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  Speaker 1: uncle or a trust fund that unlocked at 18 years
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  Speaker 1: of age.
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  Speaker 2: Right. Not at all.
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  Speaker 3: Not even close.
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  Speaker 2: So you just start calling banks and financial institutions off
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  Speaker 2: the dribble, just like calling people like, hey, I have
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  Speaker 2: an idea. Can I have a few minutes of your time?
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  Speaker 2: Is that right?
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  Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, but not quite as sexy as you're
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  Speaker 4: portraying it was. You type into a Google search, how
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  Speaker 4: do I raise money? It says you need to talk
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  Speaker 4: to people who have money. And then you type in
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  Speaker 4: Goldman Sachs.
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  Speaker 3: You dial their call line.
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  Speaker 4: And it's me and my co-founder literally just dialing the line.
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  Speaker 3: That is just the operator.
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  Speaker 4: And then we have a phone script and we say, hi,
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  Speaker 4: my name is Michael Ellison. And we're just trying to
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  Speaker 4: figure out how we can connect to anybody. It's interesting
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  Speaker 4: what persistence does because we have no idea what we're doing.
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  Speaker 4: We don't know how to raise any money, but there's
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  Speaker 4: a person that I'm talking to, and this happens to
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  Speaker 4: be Goldman Sachs, and they're confused. And they say, oh,
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  Speaker 4: are you talking about the event that's happening in New York?
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  Speaker 4: And I was like, yeah, I think so.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.
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  Speaker 4: I get connected to a VP, also confused, doesn't know
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  Speaker 4: who I am or what I'm talking about. Did you
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  Speaker 4: get tickets to the Goldman Gala?
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  Speaker 1: No.
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  Speaker 2: No?
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  Speaker 4: Oh, okay, you got to connect with my assistant. So
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  Speaker 4: me and my co-founder, we have no money. We take,
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  Speaker 4: they have these $ 10 Chinatown buses from Boston to New
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  Speaker 4: York because we're nowhere near. I don't own a suit.
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  Speaker 4: I have to borrow a suit from my roommate. So
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  Speaker 4: $ 10 Chinatown bus, borrow a suit from the roommate, go
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  Speaker 4: to this Goldman Sachs gala where there's a chairman of
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  Speaker 4: the board, there's all.
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  Speaker 3: Their VPs and executives.
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  Speaker 4: It turns out that we actually got an invite for
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  Speaker 4: this event that was supporting young Black men, and it
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  Speaker 4: was a major fundraising event. But it was just, you know,
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  Speaker 4: that's how it flew us. We didn't know, but we,
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  Speaker 4: you know, if they gave us an inch, we'd take
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  Speaker 4: a mile.
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  Speaker 1: My mentor, Ambassador Andrew Young, would say, coincidence is God's
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: way of remaining anonymous. And as my brother, Tony Ressler,
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  Speaker 1: would say, who's one of the 300th richest men in
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: the world and partnered with me, or I'm a partner
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  Speaker 1: with him in several ventures, if you don't quit, you
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  Speaker 1: can't fail.
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  Speaker 2: So you didn't give up. You were persistent. How old
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  Speaker 2: were you? 19? Yeah, 19.
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  Speaker 1: And you didn't have any relationship capital. You weren't cool
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  Speaker 1: in the sense of Wall Street, the Wall Street version
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  Speaker 1: of that. And you didn't have anybody opening doors for you.
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  Speaker 1: You literally called 1-800 numbers.
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  Speaker 3: It was the operator.
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  Speaker 4: It was the operator, and it was a call script,
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  Speaker 4: and they get confused, we get confused, and things end
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  Speaker 4: up working out.
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  Speaker 2: You fell forward.
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  Speaker 3: Fail forward, fail forward.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. And, and, you know, you can fail a lot,
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  Speaker 4: an awful lot. And if you don't give up, then,
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  Speaker 4: you know, that's, that's who gets rewarded.
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  Speaker 2: A hundred percent. If you don't fail, you don't quit.
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  Speaker 2: You can't fail.
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  Speaker 1: Again, Tony Russell quote, or I would say it different way.
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  Speaker 1: An entrepreneur is somebody who works 18 hours a day
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  Speaker 1: to keep from getting a job and success is going
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  Speaker 1: from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.
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  Speaker 2: So, okay.
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  Speaker 1: So now you're in Goldman Sachs, you, at this event
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  Speaker 1: for black founders, you just fell into like a pot
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  Speaker 1: of black aspirational success on wall street.
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  Speaker 2: And you're meeting the chairman of the board and all
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  Speaker 2: these kinds of people. So what'd you do with that opportunity?
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  Speaker 3: Uh, I walked up to Lloyd Blankfein.
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  Speaker 2: He was the chairman at that time, the CEO. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Who was the chairman and CEO. And I gave my
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: best pitch. I said, I'm Michael Ellison. I'm trying at
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: that time, my nonprofit, I thought I'd change education. And, uh,
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: And then I said, I would love to get your
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: contact information. And then he told me to go to
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: the Goldman Sachs website. I was like, the website?
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  Speaker 3: That's how I should contact you.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 3: We have a contact form. That's the best way. He's
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: smiling at me. I'm smiling at him.
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  Speaker 4: We ended up just, we were petrified, but we ended
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: up talking to every person that we can. And people
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  Speaker 4: were just perplexed because we were half the age of
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: anybody in the room. People couldn't figure out how we
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: got there, but they were just so incredibly impressed because
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  Speaker 4: of how we were trying to show up.
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  Speaker 3: That led to.
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  Speaker 4: The Goldman Sachs Foundation having a meeting with us as
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  Speaker 4: a follow-up. In that meeting and follow-up, they told us.
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  Speaker 3: To give up.
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  Speaker 2: Wow.
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  Speaker 4: They said, you don't know the VP of the Goldman
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  Speaker 4: Sachs Foundation, who I still know to this day. He said,
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  Speaker 4: you don't know what you're doing. You're... That'd be, I
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: was the executive vice president. My, my co-founder was the executive, um,
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: was the CEO. And they're like, you have two people
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: in your organization. You don't know what you're doing. We
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: could have given up. That could have been the end
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  Speaker 4: of the story. Uh, but we realized that we had
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  Speaker 4: something that other folks didn't have, which was time. We
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: tried to figure out what they were trying to do,
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: intersect with what we deeply care about, which that first organization,
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: that first nonprofit was supporting. young Black men, and trying
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: to prevent them from dropping out of high schools. And
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: we realized that without asking for permission, we could just
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: do things we thought would be beneficial for these people
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  Speaker 4: who had no time. And that led us to start
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: to interview students, try to provide information that would be
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: valuable to them around high school dropouts. A year later,
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: when they hosted that same event, We were one of
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: the key partners of the entire event and multiple of
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: the major banks were sponsors and partners of ours.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: But it was, I mean, it was.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: Very much like, don't give up, fail, keep trying, fail again,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: figure out what is the thing that we could do
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: that we could offer because there's always something you can offer.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: And that enabled us to do I think what was
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: the most important lesson, which was build the relationship capital,
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: build the network, unlock to more opportunities.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: So this is so fascinating to me on so many levels.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: It reminds me in many ways of my own story.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: So one thing that you said, which I think is
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: a get for people, it's a cheat sheet. It's an
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: opportunity for people to learn more something invaluable about success.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: You found the value proposition. You had something that most
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: people did not have on Wall Street. You had time.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: You were a high school student. You were not a father.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: You were not a husband. You were not a graduate student.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: You had time. And you traded that for people who
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: didn't have time. So people on Wall Street had the
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: money and the connections And the problem they're trying to solve,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: either they needed to solve it or wanted to solve it,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: needed business, needed to solve it, a business question or
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: a political problem, or wanted to solve it, a philanthropic
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: solution or just a human solution.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: But they didn't have the time to solve it.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: And so you created the box, the solution that solved
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: it for them and delivered them. I'm saying this, but
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: I want you to confirm if I'm right. Delivered them
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the box within a year. Right?
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: And, you know, there's another insight that I still take
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: to this day, which there are a lot of experts
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: talking on the panel about what to do for young people,
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: how to fix education. And it just occurred to me
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: that there's nowhere they're right. Because if they were right,
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: we would have solved it because they have the power
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: and they have the money and they have the influence.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: So they're literally controlling the system. They wrote the book
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: on it 20 years ago. So, I mean, we were
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: young and naive, but we just assumed there must be
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: something they don't know.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: How do we contribute? How do we figure out the
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: missing pieces?
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: It led us to go into the schools, interview professors,
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: interview high school dropouts.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: And it did turn out that.
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: We had insights that we pooled that they had no idea.
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: So there's always opportunities to be able to add value,
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: to gather insights. But I think very importantly, I'm a
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: big fan of the contrarian or unconventional thinking because if
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: the problem was already solved, if the people in power
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: knew how to solve the problem, it would have already
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: been solved. But if it's not, then it means there's
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: an opportunity.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: One of my philosophies, Michael, for living is talk without
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: being offensive. listen without being defensive and always leave even
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: your adversary with their dignity. Because if you don't, they'll
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: spend the rest of their life working to make you miserable.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: It's become personal.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: And what you did there as a young person was
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: you had enough maturity and enough confidence in yourself and
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: maybe even self-esteem. I'd love to know where that came from,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: whether mom and dad or uncles or somebody poured into
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: you and said you were somebody and you should believe
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: in yourself. But Wherever it came from, you had enough oomph,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: enough confidence to look past the disappointment. We take no
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: for vitamins, you and I, to look past the embarrassment temporarily.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: You're the younger person in the room. The BP said,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: get out of here, give up. And you witnessed, experienced
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: the opportunity sitting in plain sight, which was you had
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: a value they didn't. I think that's very valuable. You
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: don't have to have money. You don't have to have
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: a good name. You don't have to have a pedigree.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: You don't have a huge intellectual property right or some
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: kind of invention. You can just realize you've got time
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: and they don't. And there's a problem that they haven't
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: solved that is valuable to them and they're willing to
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: pay you for it or facilitate you doing it. And
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: you had to ignore the no. You had to ignore
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: somebody looking you straight in your eye, your first big
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: meeting at a big Wall Street firm when the person
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: on the other side said you should just give up.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: That's impressive. Do you still talk to this person? We
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: don't want to name their name, but unless you want to.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Was that the first person? Did they open a door
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: for you subsequently or is it somebody else?
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: So the person who said no was the vice president
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: of the Goldman Sachs Foundation.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: I'm still friends with him to this day.
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: He went on to do different things and we kept
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: in touch and You know, he's supported and opened doors
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: from time to time. It's always a learning opportunity. And
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I think that you need to appreciate that the reputation
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: or treating people well is the important piece over the
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: long term. You know, regardless of someone showing up in
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: the moment or whether they're having a good day or
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: a bad day, than just assume and treat people with
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: respect and show them value. It's developed into, you know,
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: I always want to, with every person I meet and
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: connect with, add as much value as possible, regardless of
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: what I think they can do or what they can't do,
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: and then also always assume that they have good intent.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Well, by the way, you're in my new friendship. We met,
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: we didn't know each other. And while you were very
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: complimentary of my work, I'm now highlighting you.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: On my podcast.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: And I learned about you after meeting you by just
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: being nosy and realizing that you were, first thing, that
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: you were real. I meet a lot of flakes. I
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: meet a lot of people who mean well, but don't
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: know what they're talking about. And when I realized you
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: were real, and then other people around me were like, yeah,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: that dude is the truth. Then I started asking myself,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: what can I do to help him? Which is exactly
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: what you just said. And whatever goes around comes around.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: But you didn't answer my question, which was you didn't
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: do this by yourself. So when you that doing that
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: year one and year two, who opened the door for you?
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: We won't talk about the person who I think is gracious.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: She's in touch with this person who didn't hook you up.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: That's great. And I know a lot of people like
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: that as well, who actually I know a lot of
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: people who were dang nasty to me when I founded
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Operation Hope.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Some of them look like me. And not only weren't helpful,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: they were actively blocking me. And then 20 years later.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: 30 years later, I just got a call from one
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: of them just now, wants a job from me, a contract,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: a hookup.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: And I'm gracious. I don't penalize them, even though I
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: don't hire them either. But let's walk past the person
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: who didn't help. Who opened that door for you? Who
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: said yes?
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: You know, the person who And you know how tough
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: it is. You're starting something. No one believes in you.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: Nobody invests in all that.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: But I'd say, you know, one of the first people
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: who really believed and supported and wrote checks to us,
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: even though we probably didn't really deserve it because we
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: didn't quite know exactly what we were doing yet, was
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: he was the founder of Bell Foundation. And he went
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: on to do work with Obama and at one point
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: had run a program that was serving something like a
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: third of all K-8 kids in the country with after-school programming.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: Earl Martin Phelan, who now leads Phelan Leadership Academies, which
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: is a string.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: Of charter schools.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: And why did he write you a check?
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: Because he had been where we had been.
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: And he knows that people just need support when they're
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: starting out.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: So was there a moment where you thought, maybe I
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: won't make it?
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: Oh man, constantly. Like last week.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: When was the moment we did not think that?
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: So let's now pivot here doing, you know, talk about
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: talent and opportunity. Michael Milken has a couple of great quotes.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: He says, one of them is that intelligence is equally distributed,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: but opportunity is not. So you knew you had talent,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: but you didn't necessarily have the opportunity to exercise talent.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: that talent in the marketplace, which is why I think
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: you're probably doing this now for others is my guess.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: So real quickly, we're going to jump real quickly in
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: the code path.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: So we don't run out of time.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: And I want people to understand really what this is,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: but talk very quickly about what you did with Y Combinator.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: How'd you get from that first nonprofit into a big
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: deal with Y Combinator? And what was that deal very quickly?
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: So Y Combinator for those that don't know is, One
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: of the, if not the most prestigious startup accelerator program
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: in the world. Uh, it's harder to get into than
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: Harvard university. You get into it. And as a tech
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: startup investors just will throw money at you because it
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: is a signal that you're likely to have a very
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: successful company. So from that first startup, that first nonprofit
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: at 19, then I realized that there's an opportunity where
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: I could actually create my own destiny.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: I loved the ownership mentality.
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: I loved the idea that you could build teams, that
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: you could raise money, that you could determine what your
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: path looked like.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: And growing up without having that.
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: Sense of control and having to opposite the powerlessness, then
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: it was deeply attractive to me.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: After that first nonprofit.
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: It was initially challenging to think of, do I want
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: to do this again? This was really, really hard. But
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: then I just dived headfirst. And this time it was
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: getting into. tech companies and tech startups. There's a couple
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: ones that were okay, but just kind of learning, building,
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: learning software engineering, learning about what it meant to build
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: a technical team, learning about product. And then the one
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: that's connected to Y Combinator, I ended up, helping to
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: attract and put together a really talented founding team. And
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: we ended up getting into YConMator all the way back
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: in 2011. That company eventually pivoted and was acquired for
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: over $ 3 billion a number of years later.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: And without getting into your business, you were part of
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: that exit when they sold the company.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: So you got a check.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: I got a life-changing amount of money from that. And
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: the shocking thing is there's just a couple of decisions.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: I decided that I would just not give up with
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: technology companies. I would invest myself with understanding how I
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: could become more technical, understand what it means to work
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: with people who are really technically talented.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: And then if you're persistent, then that's where you get lucky.
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: And so- I was able to work with an incredibly
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: talented founding team. And then, you know, getting to Y
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: Combinator and it creates momentum and the momentum builds.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: And then that's where it leads to incredible opportunities.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: But, you know, relatively simple projects and straightforward, but a
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: lot of people don't choose to lean into tech, especially
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: now there's a lot of questions of, you know, should
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: folks consider computer science or software engineering, or how do
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: I get plugged in and involved with AI? And one
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: of the most important things you can do, the single
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: most important thing you can do, try to find people
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: who are incredibly talented that look like they're intersecting with AI,
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: with technology, Meet them, connect with them. And then can
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: you see yourself as someone who could also be a
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: builder as well? A couple simple steps, but this is
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: the time to lean in.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: So we just had a builder's conversation and he and
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I can relate to that, but not everybody is made
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: to write the check. Most people want to cash the check,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: which is more than fine and necessary. So let's now
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: flip to CodePath. The problem in America is losing, you know,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: one could argue America is losing talent. We're losing talent
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: to China, losing talent to India, losing talent and opportunity
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: to other people in parts of the world who are
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: hustling harder, more ambitious, more scrappy, wanting to get up earlier,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: work harder, stay late, not complain. But I still think
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: America is a special place in the world and we
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: can still be the light on the hill for the
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: next 50 years. But we've got to reinvent ourselves and
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: reimagine ourselves. And I really think the first is we
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: shouldn't have shut down the Department of Education. We should
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: have given it a new mission of upscaling AI nationwide
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: and what I call the new Marshall Plan and the
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: third reconstruction. But this is not my interview.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: This is yours.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: So let's widen the lens. CodePath's thesis is essentially that
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: simply getting someone admitted to college or even into computer
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: science isn't enough. Listen to everybody going to college now.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: We want you to stay in college.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: But listen.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Students also need current technical skills, practical experience, mentorship, networks,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: interview preparation, and pathways into employers with relevant skill sets.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: So are we actually suffering from a shortage of talent
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: in America or a shortage of pathways to identify and
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: develop the talent we already have and how they relate
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: to CodePath?
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: So fundamentally, we have an education system that's not designed
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: to help you to be as successful as you could be.
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: It's not designed for you to be able to unlock
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: your potential. As you're going through school, it's about knowledge.
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: Do you know this? What grade can you get on
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: the multiple choice test? It's not execution. It's certainly not,
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: how do I become an owner by building a business?
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: It's not practical. It's theoretical.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: Copath was created in order to bridge that gap between
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: theory and practice. The way colleges and universities finally try
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: to address this gap is, are you lucky to go
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: to an institution that there's lots of internships, lots of
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: employers right in your neighborhoods? in the area that you're in.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: If not, then it's very, very challenging for you to
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: be able to cross this practical applied gap. And so
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: at the highest level, CodePath is bridging that. The courses
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: that we embed inside of colleges and universities are designed
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: for you to be able to learn how to do
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: the thing by doing the thing. And we picked technology
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: and coding because Not that we think everyone should be
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: a software engineer. We just want to teach whatever the
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: most powerful tools are of the day to unlock your opportunities.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: The way to think about AI is just thinking about computers.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: If you want to be able to make computers do
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: what you want, what do you need to learn? You know,
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: at some point in time, you may have thought about
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: internet or Excel or different types of programs.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: Now we're talking about AI.
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: But that's the whole idea behind what we are teaching
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: and also what is most important. Can you master the
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: most powerful tools? We're talking about computers. Can you think
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: of AI as the next tool for you to be
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: able to master to do what you want to do?
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: And that in a nutshell is what CodePath is embedding
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: inside of schools and what we just want to be
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: accessible to everyone.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: How does it work?
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I mentioned a bunch of statistics earlier about CodePath. Break
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: those down. Let's get down to a practical. Somebody's listening
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: to this and they want to move on the opportunity
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: we've been talking about.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: How do they do it? Well, how does this work? Yeah.
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: So we have a variety of different programs and the
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: core idea is can we meet you where you are?
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: We're in your community college. We're in your local state school.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: We are in your community.
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: And And then you can find us by oftentimes just
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: looking inside the course roster. And we have courses, you
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: can get credit for those courses. But as you're taking
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: our classes, It's a personalized experience. We're trying to identify
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: what gaps you have, what's the highest leverage, next hundred hours,
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: next couple hundred hours you can put in to get
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: you to increased earnings, increased job opportunities. So it's pretty
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: unique what we've been able to do to personalize at scale.
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: And when I talked, when you mentioned, you actually mentioned
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: the stats earlier about the average CodePath student making $ 20, 000
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: to $ 30, 000 more than the average computer science student nationally.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: although 70% of our students are coming from first-generation, low-income,
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: low-ranked institutions, the way that that works is because we're
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: identifying the highest leverage learning for you.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: That is applied. That then will then unlock your job opportunities.
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: There's also a major program that we recently launched, which
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: I think is important to share with the audience. Partnering
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: with Anthropic, we recently launched CloudCore. Anthropic is investing $ 150
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: million to pay People that don't have college degrees, $ 85, 000
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: a year to learn AI to increase their options for jobs.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: It is just as good as it sounds.
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: And it's very much an acknowledgement that AI is a
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: powerful tool. it's incredibly powerful for our communities, for our nonprofits,
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: for our institutions. And there's a deep need for people
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: who have the soft skills mirrored with just a little
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: bit of AI fluency.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: So that sort of tracks with what I was saying
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: earlier about AI won't take your job, but somebody who
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: can use AI just might. I, I, I, I agree.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: But you know, the, AI is quick to pick up,
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: and as you start to pick it up, you can
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: ask it what you should do in order to get
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: better at it.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: That's right. You pick it up, and then it picks
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: you up. Yeah.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: It's something where every day, learn something, use it. Every week,
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: talk to somebody. Try to meet somebody who you think
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: might know a little bit about AI intersecting with your
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: pain points or what you might want to do. Monthly,
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: can you think of something that you might build? You know,
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: just approach it incrementally. But I think the important piece
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: is that it's accessible. And there are so many people
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: who are afraid of even practicing with the tools, regardless
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: of your background, HR or marketing or whatever is the focus.
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: Those who are using AI even a little bit stand
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: out so much compared to those who are not.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: So that leads me to my next question. And I
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: want to get a couple in before we wrap up here.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: What does it mean to be an engineer when an
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: AI agent can increasingly write software? And I'm being a
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: little provocative here. I think I know the answer, but
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I want you to answer it. And then I want
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: to go deeper because I've been telling people that it's
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: too simplistic just to say that AI is going to
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: take your job. As I mentioned earlier, it's more nuanced
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: than that. It's somebody with the skills of that. So
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: that first question then leads into, I want to go
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: deeper into what skills become more valuable because of AI?
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: What human skills? Which I think relates to the question.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: I got a couple more questions, but go ahead.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Go ahead.
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: I've been saying for years that AI increases the value
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: of engineers and um so here's here's a way to
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: think of it how i broke it down earlier is
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: is um what's the most powerful tool okay computers computers
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: are super powerful you can have them do whatever you
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: want who are the people who have always been the
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: most effective at making computers do whatever they want to
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: do engineers an engineer what does ai do makes computers
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: more powerful Who are the people who are the most
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: effective at making AI and computers do whatever they want
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: them to do?
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: Engineers.
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: So, you know, it's kind of as AI becomes something
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: that is making software have a much more dramatic impact
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: across every single part of the economy, as AI itself
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: becomes more powerful, look at who are the people who
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: who are able to direct AI to make it do
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: what they want most effectively. You know, in Silicon Valley,
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: people are talking about agents. And they're talking about... Not
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: ICE agents, people. Not police agents.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Not FBI agents. We're talking about... These aren't physical people.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: These are AI agents, artificial intelligence agents. Okay.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: AI systems.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: And so let's do like a level one, level two,
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: level three in terms of like AI, AI fluency.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: A level one is.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: You know, you open up the chat interface and then
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: you're just asking it questions like Google. A level two
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: is you're connecting it to say your email and every
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: morning it tells you a summary of your email. And
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: then it's also writing some of the responses. So it's
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: saving you a lot of time.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: That's a level two.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Level three is you have AI agents, you have AI
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: assistants that are doing things without you having to tell them.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: And there's engineers that have hundreds to thousands of these.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: So you have almost like your own business that is
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: then deployed, doing what you want.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: It to do.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: What's the skill set?
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: That's the engineering skill set. Understanding the system, having it
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: do what you want it to do. And so I'm
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: extremely bullish on, say, software engineering, really the skills that
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: you get if you do pursue that path.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: So I just came up with a phrase, as you
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: were talking, called an AI integrator, which I have no
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: idea what it is.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: It doesn't even exist.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: But- the friction of having all these AI agents and automating.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: All this stuff for people who are completely.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: Left brain oriented and maybe have a blind spot called
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: people on the right side of their brain and don't
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: think they need human beings. All that energy going on
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: with AI agents is going to drive some really bad
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: decisions that get pushed through because AI makes mistakes. It,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: it people pleases, it hallucinates sometimes. And sometimes it just,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, just this morning and last night as I
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: was working on some stuff, it just made mistakes. I
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: had to correct it. And I had to say, look,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: I had five different financial models and it was about
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: to send the wrong thing to the wrong person. And
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: I actually stopped. It's like, oh, oh, thanks. Yeah, that's yes,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: you're correct. Like I need I need to pull this
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: out of here. And I said, look, look, you're doing
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: too much stuff. Stop making this so fancy. Give me
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: a generic. profile that I could send to everybody, give
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: it these five unifying elements, throw all the rest of
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: the stuff out.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: You try to be, okay, yeah, thank you. Great idea.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: So AI is not perfect. AI, and I have.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Another situation where AI was giving me a very lazy answer.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: And I said, look, I need you to go deeper
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: and broader. And it was like, oh yeah, you're right.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: I did two searches. I should have done six. So
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: an AI integrator to me is somebody who sits in
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: the gap between leadership and And the AI technicians, the
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: engineers who make sure the information is correct, who make
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: sure that there's not an error going out, some big
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: proposal going out or whatever, or a product going out
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: to either.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: The wrong customer or in the wrong way that will
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: embarrass the company. And there's been some examples of IBM
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: and others who fired a bunch of people thinking that
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: they were going to immediately replace it with AI, only
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: to find they had to rehire those people almost right away.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: To use the AI that they were adding. You agree
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: with that or disagree?
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: I completely agree in that there's always going to be
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: a role for humans. And as much as AI automates,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: there's always an amount it doesn't automate. At the very least,
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: we want human judgment. We want to know that John
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: Carpenter If you have a whole bunch of agents doing
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: different things, it actually represents what you want it to do.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: So there's always going to be a human in the
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: loop because that's what we trust.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: That's the world we.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Want to live in.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: We want to live in a world where- Human-centric world.
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: Human-centric world.
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: And it also, as we have a lot of technology
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: and AI, it makes certain things that are more human
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: much more important.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: So like the human connection, the.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: Bringing people along, how you feel when you are making
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: that connection, it elevates the importance of that. I also think,
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: you know, in terms of the arts, the humanities, those
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: become more important.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: You know, people who have more.
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: Depth in terms of multidisciplinary backgrounds, people who can exercise
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: the creativity, they understand culture, which is uniquely human. which
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: is the world that we have created, it elevates and
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: it makes that much more important. You know, and again,
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: I think of AI as a couple of years from now,
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: we may not be talking about AI as like a
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: thing to learn. We just are like, Yeah, I can
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: use a computer. I can use whatever. Oh, what are
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: you trying to do with it? Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: trying to create this movie. And so it's really, I think,
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: hopefully amplifies and emphasizes the really valuable aspects of being human,
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: as opposed to a lot of the technology, what we
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: think is technical, that probably fades into the background.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: And then we get to more of the connection piece
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: in the future.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: It only took me 45 minutes to get you to wrap.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: It took me 45 minutes to warm you up. So
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: you just went on. You went in, brother. And I
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: love it.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Because you then leaned into, I mean, I keep saying
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: that AI may answer the how. But in other words,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: how do you do something, which took a lot of
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: time up until now.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: But the where, the when, even the what of it
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: is the human dimension. And the leadership of it is
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: the human dimension.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: This may be the only time it's valuable to be
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: black in an economic situation because all the soft skills
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: that we have, intuition, leadership, resiliency, overcoming, re-looking around corners, re-imagining,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: looking at three, four, looking at something three or four
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: different ways, creativity, all those things are not easy for
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: AI to do. Like I said, my example I gave you,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: it was looking in one corner. It wasn't looking at
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: all the corners. I had to direct it to look
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: at more corners. So that's the human dimension and we'll
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: be paid for that. People can be paid well for that.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Let me, as we wrap up, I'm going to give
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: you a running list of questions and you just answer
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: the one that you like. What skills become commodities? Is
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: all AI related? Does critical thinking become more important than syntax?
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Does entrepreneur become easier or harder? Can one talented person
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: now build what previously required 20? Answer whatever one of
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: these questions that you want. What happens to entry-level jobs?
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: What should a 17-year-old be learning right now? Any one
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: of those you want.
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll understand a little bit. I think this is
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: the best time in history to be an entrepreneur. And
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: we're going to, we already are in a golden age
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: of entrepreneurship. What one person can do right now Leveraging AI,
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: it would be the equivalent of hundreds. And you're seeing
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: this dramatic increase in crazy stuff. Crazy stuff like solo
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: founders and having billion-dollar businesses. Things that used to be
• 48:01
  Speaker 4: extremely rare and just unheard of being like, oh, yeah, yeah,
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: it makes sense. Yeah, what's your idea? And then you
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: can execute it. It used to be that you needed
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: a team expert.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: Well, great. Guess what?
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: You have a team expert in your pocket now.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: So the question is, what do you want to do?
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: Or do you see the problem in the first place?
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: Which is around creativity.
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: And it's around, you know, do you have that multidisciplinary background?
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: Do you have a range of different experience? Are you
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: able to see problems others cannot see? So absolutely, entrepreneurship
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: is huge. Now, I also still think there's going to
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: be gigantic companies in the future. I think it's very
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: complex to think of how do I manage and optimize hundreds, thousands,
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: tens of thousands of humans millions of these AI agents
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: and AIs, we haven't figured that there's a complexity there, which.
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: Is really hard to wrap your mind around. And we
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: haven't thought about it yet.
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: So, you know, I think I am excited for individuals
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: without a lot of resources right now, having a lot more,
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: the small businesses being able to earn a lot more money,
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: be a lot more profitable, even if you right now
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: can't afford to hire, the cost decreases, but then the
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: opportunity increases. I'm also excited about, I think we're going
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: to need to do a lot more hiring period across
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: the entire spectrum. Because even when you automate a lot
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: of stuff, the only reason you're not going to hire
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: more people who are the people you want is is
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: if you can't figure out the ROI, the revenue, the
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: money equation. So, you know, if I'm talking to a
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: CEO and they're like, yep, I'm going to save a
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: whole bunch of money.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, okay, great. Well, humans still are doing something, right?
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:40
  Speaker 4: Well, then can you make more money by investing? Like
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: it's an investment question. Can you spend more money to
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: make more money?
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:50
  Speaker 4: Do they say yes, and then they're going to hire
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: more people, more humans, and spend more on a whole
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: variety of things? Or is it no, and then I think, well,
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: you just haven't figured out how to get the ROI yet?
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: So people don't know what ROI is, return on investment.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: And there's some other phrases that are unique to the
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: tech world. But I want you to learn these different languages. OK,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: as we wrap up, Michael, what's a Michael Ellison playbook?
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: What do you want to tell people? The young striver
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: out there, beyond go to your website, which is the
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: first thing you told when somebody wants to reach you,
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: same thing that the guy told you, go and not
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: tell everybody else, go to your website, by the way.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: So congratulations on your success. What do you tell the
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: young Michael Ellison out there? I mean, what is the
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Michael Ellison playbook of their success? What do you want
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: to leave the audience with?
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: The young Michael Ellison.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: The 19-year-old listening to this, the 35-year-old listening to this.
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: I think it's really important to do the things that
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: other people are not doing and to start from where
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: you are and to build on top of, you know,
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: the history of all the opportunities I've had have been
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: me going against the grain, doing things different. You know,
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: when I was at that Goldman Sachs event, I was
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: the one and only that looked like how I looked.
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: I stood out and it was one of the few
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: things I could do, which was be in a room
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: that other people were not in. And then that attracted
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: attention and then that created the opportunity. But regardless of
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: your age, regardless of where you are, then you can
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: simply choose to do things different, think a little bit different.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: And then I can't emphasize enough that the persistence or
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: the hard work or the dedication to leaning in right
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: now in this moment, yes to technology, but yes to
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: just investing in yourself. There has never been a better
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: time a bigger opportunity, with AI changing so many different things,
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: there's people who have been in power and who have
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: been successful for a long time where their very foundations
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: of their businesses are changing. And it means there's opportunities
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: for those who are persistent and willing to look and
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: willing to put in the time.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this book here is Capitalism for All, which is
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Michael Milken is one of the forwards on his bestseller
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: in my last book. I say that there's 10,000 baby
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: boomers leaving a day.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: From the economy.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: They're all white, wealthy, and mostly in high income and
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: high wealth going to retire and play golf at the
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: same time. Who's going to replace them? And by 2034,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: they'll all be gone. And so we need to understand
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: the color's green, not black or white or red or blue.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: And this technology could be an enabler to have us
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: to buy their business and upgrade what they're doing with
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: new technology and a new way and a new spirit,
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: new energy.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: And we shouldn't fear the future. We should embrace it.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: And as Michael Milken, another great quote I'll leave with is,
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: he said, if you don't like the change you're seeing
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: in front of you, you'll like irrelevance even less. And
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: what you're doing with CodePath is making sure that large
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: swathes of people, and what I'm trying to do at
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: Operation Hope is trying to make sure that large swathes
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: of people are not irrelevant. Michael, thank you very much
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: for joining me for Money and Wealth.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: Thank you, John.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: Thanks for changing the world and being part of this
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: new movement. And I'll see you on the battlefield of success.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: Is there a number or a phone number or a
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: website or something you want people to read out to you?
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: Not a phone number, but is there a website or
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: how do people reach you?
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I direct people. We're not that big of
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: an organization. Send them to the website, codepath.org, C-O-D-E-P-A-T-H.org. We're
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: not hard to reach. Our business is unlocking opportunity for folks.
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: And we do everything we can once people become part
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: of the community and part of the family.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: This is the Civil Rights Movement, everybody, from civil rights
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: to civil rights, from the streets to the suites. This
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: is John O'Brien and Money and Wealth with Michael Ellison.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Money and Wealth with John O'Brien is a production of
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: the Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts from the
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Black Effect Podcast Network, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.