Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Girl, 12, Tied to Bedpost, CHEWS THRU RESTRAINTS, Mom/Brother DISMEMBERED

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Girl, 12, Tied to Bedpost, CHEWS THRU RESTRAINTS, Mom/Brother DISMEMBERED · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A twelve year old little girl.
0:18
Speaker 1: A twelve year old little girl found wandering down a
0:23
Speaker 1: roadway on the side of the roadway by herself, her
0:29
Speaker 1: braces on, her teeth broken because she has been held hostage,
0:38
Speaker 1: tied to a bedpost for days. I'm Nancy Grace. This
0:44
Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
0:47
Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and series M one eleven. First of all,
0:50
Speaker 1: take a listen to this. It's a horrifying case nearly
0:53
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty miles north of Mobile, where a
0:56
Speaker 1: twelve year old girl was found walking alone and later
0:59
Speaker 1: led deputes to a gruesome discovery. The Tallapoosa County Sheriff's
1:03
Speaker 1: Office responding to reports of a young girl wandering alone
1:06
Speaker 1: County Road thirty four by herself around eight thirty last night.
1:10
Speaker 1: According to court records, the girl had been tied to
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Speaker 1: a bedpost for nearly a week and drugged with alcohol
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Speaker 1: before managing to tow through her bindings and go for help.
1:21
Speaker 1: Here hearing our friends at WP AM I walking alone
1:26
Speaker 1: on a rural road with her braces on her teeth
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Speaker 1: all torn up, where we believe she chewed through her
1:37
Speaker 1: restraints in order to get loose from the nightmare this
1:42
Speaker 1: little girl had endured. Again. I'm Nancy Grayson. This is
1:47
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. What an all
1:50
Speaker 1: star panel we have for you today. But before I
1:54
Speaker 1: go to the rest of the panel, I want to
1:55
Speaker 1: introduce a special guest joining us, the elected sheriff and
1:59
Speaker 1: tallapoosaccount to Alabama. He has been elected since nineteen ninety five.
2:05
Speaker 1: Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with us. Sheriff, thank you for being
2:07
Speaker 1: with us. Hey, good morning, you a sheriff. Just what
2:10
Speaker 1: I think I've seen it all. Having prosecuted in interstitding
2:15
Speaker 1: Atlanta over a decade, something like this happens and I
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Speaker 1: find out sadly I have not seen it all. I'm
2:25
Speaker 1: trying to understand what exactly happened, Sheriff, take a listen
2:28
Speaker 1: with me. To Elizabeth White at WRBL Sheriff. According to
2:33
Speaker 1: court documents, this twelfy year old juvenile was tied to
2:36
Speaker 1: a bed post for about a week, was drugged allegedly
2:40
Speaker 1: with alcohol, but somehow was able to chew herself free
2:47
Speaker 1: from those restraints, get out into that road and flag
2:50
Speaker 1: down help. Can you confirm that information that is in
2:54
Speaker 1: the court documents. Yeah, we stand by that affidavit to
2:57
Speaker 1: be able to procure there Cannopy moant again with me.
3:00
Speaker 1: Sheriff Jimmy Ammott, the elected sheriff an Talapoosa County, Alabama. Sheriff,
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Speaker 1: When did you first learn that a little girl was
3:09
Speaker 1: walking all by herself? And what highway was it? Sheriff?
3:13
Speaker 1: Hiwe thirty four. We're in the rural area. It's just
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Speaker 1: kind of southeast of Daville, Alabama. We received a nine
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Speaker 1: one one call from a motorist that morning at about
3:24
Speaker 1: eight twenty six am in reporting this young lady on
3:29
Speaker 1: the roadway near the residence. So we responded. Law enforcement responded,
3:36
Speaker 1: and as a result of the investigation, the preliminary investigation,
3:41
Speaker 1: and the information she provided for us, we were able
3:44
Speaker 1: to procure a kidnapping first degree, warned Sheriff. What can
3:48
Speaker 1: for those of our listeners and viewers that aren't familiar
3:52
Speaker 1: with that area? And PS, I don't know if you've
3:54
Speaker 1: ever heard of this place? Hey, Cody, you ever heard
3:57
Speaker 1: of it? I have it. I okay, I'm so happy
4:01
Speaker 1: that I was man able to stump you on something.
4:04
Speaker 1: My father's from hay Cody, Alabama. It is near opp
4:08
Speaker 1: which is near Enterprise, which is near Mobile. Now that
4:13
Speaker 1: is a tiny spot when you have to go to
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Speaker 1: three cities before you can get a location. I'm working
4:18
Speaker 1: up to the question. Highway thirty four tell me about that.
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Speaker 1: HOWE thirty four is about twenty five miles from the Auburn,
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Speaker 1: Alabama area. We're about eighty miles south of Birmingham, and
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Speaker 1: this is a rural area. We're known for the Lake
4:34
Speaker 1: Martin area that we have there, and we're about fifty
4:37
Speaker 1: miles south of north of excuse me, south of Montgomery, gotcha,
4:44
Speaker 1: east central east central Alabama, almost to sixty miles from Columbus, Georgia.
4:49
Speaker 1: Got you. Yes, what is Lake Martin. It's a man
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Speaker 1: made of lake by seven hundred and twenty seven miles
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Speaker 1: of shoreline there. It's in Tallapoosa Cousa in Elmore County,
5:00
Speaker 1: a larger recreational area. Wow. So it's a spot where
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Speaker 1: people come from all over the state to fish, swam ski. Yeah, yes, ma'am,
5:10
Speaker 1: from the state and out of state people and that
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Speaker 1: are actually living in our resident our county. Now, no,
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Speaker 1: you know, normally that throw a wrench in the works
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Speaker 1: to have a tourist spot in the middle and listen,
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Speaker 1: I'm from rural bib County, not even near a city
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Speaker 1: of twenty five miles to make him, which is in
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Speaker 1: middle Georgia. I get it. So right in the middle
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Speaker 1: of a very rural area, very low population, very low crime.
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Speaker 1: You've got a huge seven hundred square foot lake that
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Speaker 1: draws tourists from all around, including other states. Now Joe
5:46
Speaker 1: Scot Morgan with me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author
5:50
Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starving brand
5:53
Speaker 1: new hit series Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan on
5:56
Speaker 1: iHeart that throws a wrench in the works when you
5:59
Speaker 1: have a big tourist like that. Yeah, yeah, it really does,
6:02
Speaker 1: because you don't know where a lot of these people
6:04
Speaker 1: are coming from, you know. And Sheriff was right and
6:08
Speaker 1: mentioning that you've got all kinds of people that are
6:11
Speaker 1: not just coming in from Alabama and the local metro
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Speaker 1: areas there, but from out of state. Lake Martin's a
6:17
Speaker 1: beautiful area, so you know, it will attract people, say
6:19
Speaker 1: for instance, from Georgia that owned properties over there and
6:22
Speaker 1: stay for long term or short term. So you can
6:25
Speaker 1: have transient population that comes in and of course that
6:29
Speaker 1: creates a headache for all the investigators involved in a
6:31
Speaker 1: case like this. You know, Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with me
6:34
Speaker 1: falling on the hills of Jesscott Morgan. When I first
6:37
Speaker 1: realized what this means, I was prosecuting a case. It's
6:42
Speaker 1: a guy that was a serial killer, and at that
6:46
Speaker 1: point I thought I could get him on one murder.
6:50
Speaker 1: But it was a Jane Doe. I didn't even know
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Speaker 1: who the purple was yet. I had a Jane Doe
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Speaker 1: found out in a field, no idea, honor, nothing, but
7:00
Speaker 1: we were able to figure out. I was thinking, who's
7:02
Speaker 1: your boyfriend, who's her husband, who's her ex? Where does
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Speaker 1: she work? Where does she live? Can I find those
7:07
Speaker 1: things out and maybe I can find the killer. Then
7:09
Speaker 1: I found out she had gotten off Marta the bus downtown. No,
7:17
Speaker 1: it was Greyhound Crayoun bus downtown. She came out of
7:20
Speaker 1: the bus station, Sheriff, and that is when I learned
7:24
Speaker 1: you throw in airport bus station tourist attraction. Suddenly there
7:31
Speaker 1: goes your line of inquiry because now you have thousands
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Speaker 1: of potential suspects. You wouldn't have if, say a woman,
7:40
Speaker 1: a person was found dead in their home. When you
7:44
Speaker 1: throw in something like Lake Martin, you've got a lot
7:47
Speaker 1: more potential suspects. But let me get back to finding
7:50
Speaker 1: this twelve year old girl. What is that? Let's see
7:52
Speaker 1: seven eight, fifth grade, almost six or seventh I believe
7:57
Speaker 1: seventh grade, completed, a sixth grade, headed to the seventh
8:01
Speaker 1: So just out of the sixth grade, twelve years old. Now,
8:06
Speaker 1: how did she get picked up? Sheriff? Well, basically she
8:10
Speaker 1: wasn't picked up. She was actually when we got the call,
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Speaker 1: law enforcement responded our agency and also another agency responded
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Speaker 1: there and just attained her to law Investigative investigators got
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Speaker 1: to the scene and once they got to the scene
8:27
Speaker 1: and kind of debriefed her on the information that she
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Speaker 1: could provide us. Sure, if you went to the scene later,
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Speaker 1: what did you observe? Was it on a lonely stretch
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Speaker 1: of road? And I understand the motorists saw her. Was
8:39
Speaker 1: it a man or a woman that saw her. We're
8:41
Speaker 1: not getting into that right now because we still in
8:43
Speaker 1: the investigative stages, and so we have interviewed the person
8:49
Speaker 1: that actually saw her there. It is a rural area,
8:52
Speaker 1: it's not a heavy populated area. It is a through road,
8:58
Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, a lot of traffic going to
9:01
Speaker 1: the lake, going to Auburn. So about a twenty six
9:06
Speaker 1: when she actually called nine one one and the agencies
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Speaker 1: responded to gather information from her, A twenty six Am, Yes, ma'am.
9:13
Speaker 1: So somebody, a motorist comes along, sees the girl and
9:17
Speaker 1: they don't take the girl anywhere. They just call nine
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Speaker 1: one one. Correct, that's correct. That's the best thing. That's
9:24
Speaker 1: the very best thing. Because think about it, Sheriff, which
9:26
Speaker 1: I'm sure you already have, if the person, the good
9:29
Speaker 1: samaritan puts the girl in the car, it takes her somewhere.
9:33
Speaker 1: If this thing finally goes to trial, the prop could argue, oh,
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Speaker 1: they did it. I didn't do it. That motorists did it.
9:40
Speaker 1: I know it sounds crazy, right, but they could argue that.
9:43
Speaker 1: And if you get one crazy juror, you're screwed. Now
9:49
Speaker 1: a lot of lawyers talking in the fancy Latin terms,
9:52
Speaker 1: but I'm telling you you'd be screwed. So thank goodness,
9:56
Speaker 1: that's what the motorists did. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
10:15
Speaker 1: we are talking with the elected sheriff. Sheriff Jimmy Abbott
10:19
Speaker 1: out of Talapoosa County. A twelve year old girl is
10:22
Speaker 1: fan with her braces all ripped up, walking along the
10:25
Speaker 1: side of a desolate rural highway. And this is what
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Speaker 1: we learned. Take a listen to our friends at WSFA.
10:33
Speaker 1: Surrendous situation. Talapoosa County Sheriff Jimmy Abbess as deputies gotta
10:37
Speaker 1: call yesterday morning that a twelve year old girl was
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Speaker 1: wandering down the road here along County Road thirty four.
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Speaker 1: Investigators say she was kidnapped. We always say say something,
10:47
Speaker 1: to say something. We're very appreciative to the people that
10:50
Speaker 1: actually came forward. The twelve year old girl, according to
10:54
Speaker 1: court records, had been tied up and drugged before managing
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Speaker 1: to escape. Sheriff, what did the girls say had happened
11:01
Speaker 1: to her? Well, basically what she indicated as far as
11:04
Speaker 1: the complaints that we were actually doing. You know that
11:07
Speaker 1: she indicated in there that she had been restrained to
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Speaker 1: the bedpost for a fox in a week and gave
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Speaker 1: the victim alcohol to keep her in a drug state,
11:19
Speaker 1: as well as assaulted her in the head area. Right,
11:22
Speaker 1: assaulted her in the head area, you mean hit her
11:25
Speaker 1: in the head, Yes, ma'am was the little girl sex assaulted.
11:30
Speaker 1: We have no knowledge of that at this time. So
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Speaker 1: in order to keep her sedated, the perp fed her
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Speaker 1: alcohol and hit her in the head. That's what our
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Speaker 1: complaint to indicated, so that we could actually get the
11:45
Speaker 1: arrest warrant. Yes, sureff, what condition was the girl in?
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Speaker 1: She did not have any life threatening injuries as injuries,
11:53
Speaker 1: she did receive medical attention and then she was placed
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Speaker 1: into the custody of Obama Department came and resources. Does
12:04
Speaker 1: she have the wherewithal to tell you where this had happened?
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Speaker 1: She did, she indicated, as she was in an approximate
12:12
Speaker 1: location the residents when we actually arrived on the scene.
12:16
Speaker 1: The alsers arrived on the scene and started a gathering
12:20
Speaker 1: information from her in regards to this. Joining you right now,
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Speaker 1: special guest crime reporter from Oxygen dot com. You can
12:27
Speaker 1: find her on Twitter at Underscore Gina Tron, author of
12:31
Speaker 1: Star sixty seven and employment on Amazon with Me Gina Tron. Gina,
12:37
Speaker 1: what do we know about that morning? Eight twenty six
12:40
Speaker 1: am when the call comes in? After the call went
12:45
Speaker 1: came in, the girl was taken to the hospital and
12:50
Speaker 1: from there the investigators went I believe the next day,
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Speaker 1: they went to the home where she instructed them was
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Speaker 1: being held captive. Gina, do you know if it's been
13:04
Speaker 1: reported that the girl was sex assaulted? It was not
13:06
Speaker 1: reported that. However, the court documents say that the intended
13:11
Speaker 1: to kidnapping was to quote violate or abuse sexually the victim.
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Speaker 1: Sheriff Jimmy Abbott back to you, the girl was able
13:19
Speaker 1: to lead you back to the home where she says
13:22
Speaker 1: she was tied to the bedpost. Correct, that's correct. Where
13:25
Speaker 1: was it? The home was on counter Road thirty four,
13:28
Speaker 1: which is the same proximity that she was actually located at.
13:35
Speaker 1: So it's in that rural areas. We spoke and it
13:38
Speaker 1: was the same day instance, not in the next day
13:40
Speaker 1: that we actually went into the residence. Sheriff, What was
13:44
Speaker 1: found when you and your people went into the residence. Actually,
13:50
Speaker 1: we precured a search warrant for the residence based on
13:54
Speaker 1: the information and entered into the residence, and at that
13:57
Speaker 1: point in time, two decomposed bodies were actually found in
14:03
Speaker 1: the residents. They were removed and went to the Alabama
14:06
Speaker 1: Department of Forensic Sciences for their examination. Take a listen
14:10
Speaker 1: to this. Yesterday about a twenty six, our office received
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Speaker 1: a call of a young juneile female walking in the
14:17
Speaker 1: roadway in the area of thirty five forty seven County
14:21
Speaker 1: Road thirty four. During their initial investigation, from the information
14:27
Speaker 1: that we received and collected, we were able to arrest
14:30
Speaker 1: the Jose Pauline Pascal Reyes of this same address for
14:35
Speaker 1: kidnapping in the first degree and he was arrested in
14:39
Speaker 1: Auburn or Summerville Circle by the Marshall Service in the
14:42
Speaker 1: Auburn Police Department and more. Listen, first of all, what
14:46
Speaker 1: stands in the affidavit. We stand by that affidavit to
14:50
Speaker 1: be able to procure the kidnapping wants. And I would
14:54
Speaker 1: say she's a hero, and it's one of those things
14:58
Speaker 1: that we want to get into to a later where
15:02
Speaker 1: gave her medical attention and she's safe now and so
15:07
Speaker 1: we want to keep her that way. And that's basic
15:11
Speaker 1: all I can actually say. The first contact we had
15:13
Speaker 1: her which yesterday morning when a passing bar was able
15:17
Speaker 1: to stop with her and they reported to us, so
15:20
Speaker 1: she was not a considered a missing person. And also
15:23
Speaker 1: we learned more from Elizabeth White at WRBL the child
15:28
Speaker 1: had restraint marks on her wrist braces, on her teeth
15:31
Speaker 1: broken from her escape, according to investigators, as the child
15:35
Speaker 1: was being treated for injuries, investigators entered the home, locating
15:40
Speaker 1: two decomposing bodies. Their identities and cause of death not
15:45
Speaker 1: yet released. Ryas was located Monday by US marshals at
15:49
Speaker 1: a construction site where he was working in Auburn. He's
15:52
Speaker 1: charged with first degree kidnapping. Investigators say other charges, including
15:56
Speaker 1: capital murder, are pending. Nicole hodge Clod joining me veteran
16:02
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney out of Houston, former prosecutor, and you
16:06
Speaker 1: can find her at Houston criminal defense dot com. Nicole,
16:09
Speaker 1: did you hear Sheriff Jimmy Abbott say very carefully we
16:13
Speaker 1: had an affidavit to support a search warrant before we
16:17
Speaker 1: went into that home. That's the way you do it. Yeah,
16:20
Speaker 1: that's cross your t's and dot in your eyes. Because
16:22
Speaker 1: in my mind, if a little girl with embraces all
16:25
Speaker 1: mangled up from chewing through restraints to escape a sex predator,
16:32
Speaker 1: been tied up to a bed post for a week,
16:36
Speaker 1: hitting the head, and fed alcohol to keep her sedated,
16:39
Speaker 1: I would call that X and exigent circumstances, but not
16:44
Speaker 1: only that, which you usually would apply to a car,
16:47
Speaker 1: I would be worried another crime could be going down
16:50
Speaker 1: in that home and just break the door down. Now see,
16:53
Speaker 1: that's how we have shriff Jimmy Abbott because he did
16:56
Speaker 1: the right thing. Because you don't want to trial the
17:00
Speaker 1: defense jumping up and saying he had time to get
17:02
Speaker 1: a warrant. You can't just break down the door, you're
17:07
Speaker 1: so right, and some judge might agree and throw out
17:11
Speaker 1: all the evidence that you find inside. Of course, also
17:14
Speaker 1: there's ultimate discovery because ultimately two dead bodies are going
17:20
Speaker 1: to be found because someone is going to miss those people.
17:25
Speaker 1: But did you hear that this girl had not been
17:28
Speaker 1: reported as missing even though she had been tied to
17:31
Speaker 1: a bed post for a week, And now we know why,
17:34
Speaker 1: But first explain why the sheriff did the right thing
17:37
Speaker 1: and getting the warrants absolutely the right thing. And as
17:39
Speaker 1: you've already pointed out, it really is kind of a
17:42
Speaker 1: belt in suspenders situation. It could be what we call
17:45
Speaker 1: exigent or emergency circumstances which would have allowed law enforcement
17:50
Speaker 1: to go in without a warrant, But this is exactly
17:53
Speaker 1: the right way to do it for law enforcement. You
17:55
Speaker 1: get that warrant to be sure. That way there are
17:58
Speaker 1: no arguments later on when you discover evidence that you
18:01
Speaker 1: need for trial. And I'll tell you that's a hard
18:04
Speaker 1: thing to do. When you have a case involving a child.
18:08
Speaker 1: There are very few circumstances more emotional than finding a
18:12
Speaker 1: child who is injured, who has been attacked, and who
18:17
Speaker 1: has reported that this is the location of the crime,
18:19
Speaker 1: and that there may be something still ongoing. And it
18:23
Speaker 1: is so smart to press pause, as we've done in
18:26
Speaker 1: this case, do what is correct under the law and
18:29
Speaker 1: get that warrant, even though it is really not the
18:32
Speaker 1: emotionally natural thing to do, not at all. Sheriff Jamie Abbott,
18:37
Speaker 1: in your jurisdiction, can you get a warrant over the
18:40
Speaker 1: phone or did you have to go through standing an
18:43
Speaker 1: investigator to the sheriff, I mean, to the judge, have
18:46
Speaker 1: the investigator swear in and give information or could you
18:50
Speaker 1: do it my phone? Yes, we can do telephonic search
18:53
Speaker 1: warrant my phone, and then we have to then, you know,
18:57
Speaker 1: prepare the affidavid, you know, for the judge later to
19:00
Speaker 1: to sign and then the return. So everybody a return
19:03
Speaker 1: that Sheriff Abbot's talking about is when you go in
19:06
Speaker 1: on a search warrant and you find things that you're
19:09
Speaker 1: going to seize, like drugs. Let's just go with drugs.
19:12
Speaker 1: You write a return, which means you list everything that
19:16
Speaker 1: you're seizing from the home. Sheriff, I'm so glad you
19:20
Speaker 1: could do. You said telephonic a phone affidavit. You know,
19:24
Speaker 1: you explain it, Nicole Hodge Globe what we mean by
19:28
Speaker 1: abbot Sheriff Abbott getting the affidavit to support the warrant
19:32
Speaker 1: to make that search legal. So the law enforcement official
19:36
Speaker 1: who is providing the affidavit has to swear to it
19:39
Speaker 1: and go in front of a judge or in front
19:42
Speaker 1: of somebody who can really notorize it or accept that swearing,
19:47
Speaker 1: and then give them a document that is the warrant.
19:50
Speaker 1: So in the old days, most places required that you
19:53
Speaker 1: be present. You go do that in person. There have
19:56
Speaker 1: been changes to the law over time, and these changes
20:00
Speaker 1: allow for these types of swearing as to happen over
20:03
Speaker 1: the telephone. They have people in place who can accept
20:06
Speaker 1: the swearing and provide the affidavit, oftentimes over the computer.
20:12
Speaker 1: It would have been again in the old days, provided
20:15
Speaker 1: by facts or just hand. It's the law enforcement official.
20:17
Speaker 1: But now because we know and understand that time is
20:21
Speaker 1: of the essence. You can actually take care of these
20:23
Speaker 1: things remotely, which really makes up So Sureff, what do
20:26
Speaker 1: you do use the magistrate who were really there for
20:30
Speaker 1: off hours because court very often doesn't start till nine
20:33
Speaker 1: or ten o'clock in the morning. Who do you go
20:35
Speaker 1: in front of a magistrate? We actually use our district judge.
20:38
Speaker 1: We have district judges and circuit judges in our county,
20:42
Speaker 1: so we actually do it in person by phone to
20:45
Speaker 1: the circuit to the district judge, Suriff Abbott, what was
20:48
Speaker 1: discovered when your people went in the home? Pursue it
20:52
Speaker 1: to one? Well, as you know, the two decomposed bodies
20:56
Speaker 1: were actually failed. We process the scene for almost three
21:01
Speaker 1: days Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, gathering other valuable information that
21:07
Speaker 1: we can use against the individual. Can't get into that
21:11
Speaker 1: right now, but basically, the two decomposed bodies were actually
21:16
Speaker 1: our focus to begin with. And once we found those,
21:20
Speaker 1: then they went immediately to transport immedially to Forensic Sciences
21:25
Speaker 1: which is located in Montgomery, and they started their examination
21:29
Speaker 1: and Friday, if I may add, is that we've finally
21:33
Speaker 1: got a positive idea on the Sandra Saha, and then
21:39
Speaker 1: the other individual, juvenile under the age of fourteen, is
21:44
Speaker 1: reasonably sure that this is identity of this individual. So
21:49
Speaker 1: I've got a woman and a little boy where the
21:54
Speaker 1: two murdered people. And I'm understanding, I'm reading between the
21:59
Speaker 1: lines that at first you couldn't even identify the victims.
22:07
Speaker 1: Sandra Saha is a little twelve year old girls mother,
22:13
Speaker 1: and the little boy seems to be her brother. I'm
22:19
Speaker 1: hearing you say it was a three day process, an
22:27
Speaker 1: odyssey of processing that home where the little girl had
22:30
Speaker 1: been tied to a bedpost for a week, sedated with
22:36
Speaker 1: alcohol and beaten a head. I just wonder, sheriff, where
22:43
Speaker 1: she was tied to the bed, would she had been
22:46
Speaker 1: able to see her mother or brother's body. We're not
22:51
Speaker 1: getting into that right now. I hope you understand. It's
22:54
Speaker 1: still a part of the investigation and we're trying to feel,
22:58
Speaker 1: like I said, to gather everything from A to Z
23:01
Speaker 1: and then actually make our returns and then get with
23:06
Speaker 1: our prosecutors and move forward with the case. To doctor
23:09
Speaker 1: Charles Heller joining me, clinical forensic psychologist, chief forensic consultant
23:15
Speaker 1: in Rockland County, New York. The forensic mental Health unit
23:20
Speaker 1: works there at also Rutger's Biomedical and Health Services Doctor Heller,
23:26
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what this child will live through
23:31
Speaker 1: the rest of her life. Yeah, this is a terrible
23:36
Speaker 1: complex trauma, and she's going to need a lot of
23:42
Speaker 1: emotional support and understanding, and there are various treatments that
23:47
Speaker 1: can be used over time. But really we don't really
23:53
Speaker 1: know what her condition is emotionally or mentally. Obviously, we
23:58
Speaker 1: can hermise that she's been through one of the worst
24:03
Speaker 1: travelers any human being could ever go through. Is horrible story.
24:09
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering what she knew, if she knew what
24:13
Speaker 1: was happening to her mother and brother. During this investigation
24:18
Speaker 1: overnight investigation process and the residence we have found located
24:25
Speaker 1: two decomposed bodies that would failed in currently at the
24:28
Speaker 1: Department Forensic Sciences pending the identification. One of the victims
24:33
Speaker 1: has been identified as the suspect's girlfriend, Sandra Vasquez Seja.
24:38
Speaker 1: Court documents alleged Pascal Reyez smothered her to death with
24:42
Speaker 1: a pillow. The other victim was her child, identified only
24:46
Speaker 1: by his initials. Pascal Reyez is charged with capital murder
24:49
Speaker 1: of a child under fourteen years old. The criminal complaint
24:53
Speaker 1: goes on to accuse Pascal Reez of abusing a corpse
24:56
Speaker 1: in an attempt to hide the evidence. Abusing a corpse, well,
25:00
Speaker 1: that's certainly putting perfume on the pig you were hearing.
25:06
Speaker 1: In addition to the Tallapoos County Sheriff, Sheriff Abbott our
25:10
Speaker 1: friends at NBC, but now take a listen to our
25:13
Speaker 1: friends Sarah killing in at w VTM. Court records are
25:17
Speaker 1: identifying the victims found in the date film home as
25:20
Speaker 1: a woman and child. The adult victim, Sandra CJ, was
25:24
Speaker 1: smothered to death. The other victim, a young boy, beaten
25:27
Speaker 1: to death. The two were dismembered to hide evidence. Jose
25:31
Speaker 1: Pascal rayas that man you see right there, charged with
25:34
Speaker 1: capital murder, abuse of a corpse, and kidnapping. Police say
25:38
Speaker 1: that he kidnapped a twelve year old who he drugged
25:41
Speaker 1: tied to a bedpost before she escaped by chewing her
25:44
Speaker 1: way out of the restraints. To Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, have
25:48
Speaker 1: you ever had a dismemberment case before this one? No,
25:52
Speaker 1: I'm sorry this was your first and I pray it
25:56
Speaker 1: it's going to be your last. Because that, and I
26:00
Speaker 1: know you've got to be careful because you're going to
26:02
Speaker 1: be a witness. So whatever you don't want to answer,
26:07
Speaker 1: I know you'll tell me. You're very forthright, Sheriff. When
26:12
Speaker 1: your people first went into the home, was it apparent
26:15
Speaker 1: that a dismemberment had occurred? I can't, I can't get
26:18
Speaker 1: into that. And for no, no, no, no, You're absolutely right.
26:24
Speaker 1: You're right, And that's why I've got Joe Scott Morgan,
26:26
Speaker 1: not that he went into the home, but he's seen
26:29
Speaker 1: probably more dismemberments. Between you and I together, Just Goot Morgan,
26:34
Speaker 1: death investigator and professor forensics, Joe Scott, You and I
26:38
Speaker 1: just okay, just gave me chills just remembering this. You
26:43
Speaker 1: and I have just finished and I'm sure it's on going.
26:45
Speaker 1: We're not through yet. Joe Scott investigating the case of
26:49
Speaker 1: Colt mom Laurie Valo, where her two of her children
26:53
Speaker 1: were murdered by her new husband and the little girl
26:57
Speaker 1: was dismembered, Tyley was dismembered. There have been well, you
27:01
Speaker 1: and I've investigated a lot of dismemberment cases. Yes, you're
27:05
Speaker 1: you're three days, three days to process the scene. And
27:10
Speaker 1: now I know why. Yeah, and if there's an upside,
27:16
Speaker 1: the idea that it did take three days gives you
27:19
Speaker 1: an idea as to the care that has been taken
27:23
Speaker 1: in processing the scene. You know, we back up and
27:25
Speaker 1: we think about this warrant that was the issue prior
27:28
Speaker 1: to making entry into the scene. You've got to contain
27:33
Speaker 1: scene because it's within you know, this this dwelling, which
27:37
Speaker 1: is helpful in this sense. You don't have people you
27:41
Speaker 1: can control who's coming in and out of it. And
27:44
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of fragile, delicate evidence in a
27:47
Speaker 1: scene like this that investigators would have to take their
27:51
Speaker 1: time with. You know, if we just look at you know,
27:55
Speaker 1: the word decomposing has been used several times, and when
27:59
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a composing case and you don't have
28:01
Speaker 1: an immediate witness that can give you information, time is
28:06
Speaker 1: of essence there. And so you began to think about
28:09
Speaker 1: how long the bodies had been down, and you know,
28:12
Speaker 1: we can talk about things like entomology and study of
28:14
Speaker 1: insects and the rate of decomposition and heat. I don't
28:18
Speaker 1: know they're going to get the same kind of insects
28:20
Speaker 1: inside a home that you would get off the bodies.
28:23
Speaker 1: Had been left out. Hey, hold on, Joe Scott, in
28:24
Speaker 1: just a second, hold your thought, because I want to
28:26
Speaker 1: hear every single thing you're saying. I just got to ask, Sheriff,
28:29
Speaker 1: Jimmy Abbott, Sheriff, I'm looking at the little girl. Her
28:33
Speaker 1: face is blurred, and she's got on a little shirt
28:38
Speaker 1: with the little it looks like a little blue horse
28:42
Speaker 1: with wings, and it's rainbow colored. And she's all dressed
28:47
Speaker 1: up to match her outfit with her skirt. I'm looking
28:51
Speaker 1: at a picture of her brother and her mother is
28:55
Speaker 1: just beautiful, Sheriff. How do you do it? How do
29:01
Speaker 1: you get up in the morning and put one foot
29:04
Speaker 1: in front of the other. I'm looking at these three.
29:07
Speaker 1: Oh my, she's got on a little headband with little
29:11
Speaker 1: ears and a unicorn, a gold unicorn horn coming at
29:18
Speaker 1: the top of her little headband. Like something I would
29:21
Speaker 1: dress my sister, I'm excuse me, like I would dress
29:24
Speaker 1: my little girl am when she was younger. And to
29:28
Speaker 1: think the brother and the mother dead and dismembered, and
29:33
Speaker 1: the little girl has been through hell, the bottom of hell,
29:38
Speaker 1: and then out tied to that bedpost, while her mother
29:42
Speaker 1: and brother are murdered and dismembered. How do you keep
29:47
Speaker 1: going here? If I'm curious, Well, this is my second profession.
29:51
Speaker 1: At first I worked with the States and I worked
29:53
Speaker 1: in the ALBA Bureau Investigation for approximately twenty years, and
29:57
Speaker 1: then I ran and got elected in this I feel
30:00
Speaker 1: like it's a duty once you take this job, it's
30:03
Speaker 1: a duty to do the best that you can, and
30:06
Speaker 1: investigating cases to end results is prosecuting the person. So
30:11
Speaker 1: it's a passion that I've had for years. And you know,
30:14
Speaker 1: our team of investigators, not just me, We had people
30:17
Speaker 1: from local agencies, from the state and also from the
30:21
Speaker 1: federal levels that was assisting us on this and are
30:25
Speaker 1: still assisting on us as we wade through the evidence
30:30
Speaker 1: that we've collected. And so it's just one of those
30:34
Speaker 1: things that you have to do. It. It's a role
30:37
Speaker 1: in law enforcement, you know, once you sign up. It's
30:40
Speaker 1: one of those things that I've got a great passion for.
30:43
Speaker 1: It is working in criminal investigation. As long as I've
30:46
Speaker 1: worked to make sure that we do the right thing
30:48
Speaker 1: and train our people to do the right thing when
30:51
Speaker 1: they're there. You know, there was many a time, sure
30:53
Speaker 1: if I would leave the courthouse or crime scene and
30:56
Speaker 1: and I'll just pull off the side of the road
30:58
Speaker 1: and just sit there to get my mind straight to
31:00
Speaker 1: keep going. But as a crime victim myself, I feel
31:05
Speaker 1: like it's a duty to keep going forward. And I
31:10
Speaker 1: was just curious about how you do that. Now I'm
31:13
Speaker 1: looking at a picture I found on Facebook, and it
31:16
Speaker 1: said the mom and a beautiful purple evening dress and
31:21
Speaker 1: the sun has all a little blue suit and a
31:24
Speaker 1: white collar shirt, and the daughter is all dressed up
31:29
Speaker 1: in like a little red party dress and a little heels.
31:32
Speaker 1: They're obviously going to some events, some function. And to
31:36
Speaker 1: think that all that is over, the whole family, what's
31:41
Speaker 1: left of them, will never be the same again. Sheriff
31:58
Speaker 1: time stories with me. It's grace. Tell me how the
32:02
Speaker 1: little girl is doing. She's doing well is expected physically,
32:07
Speaker 1: you know, injuries and all her minor injuries. We placed
32:12
Speaker 1: her in the custody of the State of Alabama. She
32:15
Speaker 1: has an attorney in Alabama. That's that's the procedures that
32:20
Speaker 1: we go through, and the Alabama Department Human Resources is
32:24
Speaker 1: taking care of her. We've had tremendous support from the community,
32:31
Speaker 1: people reaching out to assist the DHR as well as
32:35
Speaker 1: her you know what is another amazing thing about this
32:40
Speaker 1: is the fact that the little girl lived. Sheriff, take
32:45
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut seventeen. This is our longtime
32:49
Speaker 1: friend Gail King at forty eight hours. Jamie Cross went
32:53
Speaker 1: missing in the early hours of October fifteen, twenty eighteen,
32:57
Speaker 1: when a man in the family did not know pulled
32:59
Speaker 1: into their driveway. Jamie's father, Jim was murdered, shot at
33:04
Speaker 1: point blank range at the front door. Her mother, Denise,
33:08
Speaker 1: barricaded herself with Jamie in the bathroom and called nine Night.
33:13
Speaker 1: One call is very inaudible. I can't hear words. You
33:21
Speaker 1: hear a yelling or maybe a scream, and it ends
33:25
Speaker 1: by getting hung up. The killer drove away with thirteen
33:28
Speaker 1: year old Jamie in the trunk of his card. Jamie
33:30
Speaker 1: class endured hell and had her family murdered as well
33:36
Speaker 1: by a predator. Sheriff Abbott, I don't understand the thinking
33:42
Speaker 1: of these perps willing to wipe out a whole family
33:48
Speaker 1: to get to the girl. I mean, I don't know
33:50
Speaker 1: if that was the motivation in this case, but do
33:54
Speaker 1: you believe you have a motivation regarding the twelve year
33:58
Speaker 1: old girl that you guys say, we're not commenting on
34:02
Speaker 1: any emo at this time. We're still letting the investigation
34:07
Speaker 1: continued and with hopefully the results of what you're asking
34:12
Speaker 1: me as far as m will come out at a
34:14
Speaker 1: later date. To Gina Tron joining me from Oxygen dot Com, Gina,
34:19
Speaker 1: what more can you tell us? Well, the family was
34:22
Speaker 1: living with the suspect four months before this happened, so um,
34:27
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, it makes one wonder if he had
34:31
Speaker 1: been planning this for a while. They moved in with
34:33
Speaker 1: him in February, and um, the attack actually happened on
34:38
Speaker 1: July twenty fourth, or allegedly that's when the mother and
34:42
Speaker 1: son were killed and when the girls captivity began. Joe
34:47
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, will we be able
34:52
Speaker 1: to date the murders and then backtrack and compared to
34:55
Speaker 1: when the girl was first taken hostage? I think that
34:59
Speaker 1: deepender pumps school evidence that has been gathered in a
35:02
Speaker 1: case like this. Uh, you know, one of the things
35:06
Speaker 1: that you're going to look for is how long the
35:10
Speaker 1: remains have been down and you know, dependent upon the
35:14
Speaker 1: information that may be developed by the investigators, is that
35:17
Speaker 1: going to marry up with this timeline and keep in mind,
35:21
Speaker 1: you've got to You've got this poor little girl that's
35:24
Speaker 1: in and out of uh, you know her, what her
35:27
Speaker 1: current reality was. She She's not going to be necessarily
35:30
Speaker 1: oriented at time and space, so she's going to be
35:32
Speaker 1: hard I think, uh to get information from about specific times. Um.
35:39
Speaker 1: You know, one of the troubling things for me is,
35:42
Speaker 1: you know, perhaps the head trauma that she may have sustained,
35:46
Speaker 1: coupling that with this ongoing you know, uh dosing of
35:51
Speaker 1: alcohol and anything else that she may may have had
35:54
Speaker 1: in her system. And I'm sure that there they probably
35:57
Speaker 1: did talks on her, more than likely when they did
35:59
Speaker 1: the initial assessment. Yes, ma'am, Jess got Morgan joining me,
36:03
Speaker 1: Jes Scott there. I just don't think there's any way
36:07
Speaker 1: this little girl did not know her mother and brother
36:11
Speaker 1: had been killed and dismembered. It's a very small home. Yeah,
36:14
Speaker 1: it is very contained. And this is the thing about it.
36:17
Speaker 1: As you know, as this process of decomposition is going
36:20
Speaker 1: on and she is in this environment, you're going to
36:24
Speaker 1: have all kinds of horrors that are going to be
36:26
Speaker 1: falling her. Just from a century standpoint, The things that
36:29
Speaker 1: she smells, maybe things that she hears in that environment,
36:33
Speaker 1: and she would have had some kind of awareness. I
36:36
Speaker 1: don't know specifically, you know what kind of detail she
36:39
Speaker 1: could come up with. But you know, when you begin
36:41
Speaker 1: to think about the fact that what has been alleged
36:44
Speaker 1: is that she had chewed through her restraints in this
36:49
Speaker 1: environment to get free, that means that shows a will
36:52
Speaker 1: on her part, and then she's got to extricate herself.
36:56
Speaker 1: This is not like the police actually came in and
36:58
Speaker 1: removed her Hollywood movie. She did this all on her own,
37:03
Speaker 1: and so she would have had to have made her
37:05
Speaker 1: way through that environment. And I can't even begin to
37:08
Speaker 1: plumb the depths of how horrible that would have been.
37:10
Speaker 1: I mean, Josca Morgan, how do we even know the
37:13
Speaker 1: mom was suffocated? If the bodies have been dismembered, possibly
37:18
Speaker 1: the head was still intact. In other words, they found
37:21
Speaker 1: the head so they can make out the particular being
37:24
Speaker 1: burst or I'm not sure how would they do that
37:27
Speaker 1: with a dismembered body. That's the only thing I can
37:29
Speaker 1: think of is that they would have had some kind
37:32
Speaker 1: of evidence, perhaps in the form of particular hemorrhages, because
37:35
Speaker 1: they keep using this term decomposing bodies and so how
37:39
Speaker 1: are you going to assess that? And I think that's
37:42
Speaker 1: that's what the forensic sciences are faced with in this
37:45
Speaker 1: particular case. Or to doctor Charles Hell are joining us
37:48
Speaker 1: forensic psychologist, maybe the little girl told them mommy was asphyxiated,
37:55
Speaker 1: smothers strangled. Sometimes, Nancy, in cases like this, when it's
38:00
Speaker 1: such a horrible, horrific event, a trauma beyond words, a
38:07
Speaker 1: person goes into a dissociative state. It's almost like they
38:12
Speaker 1: numb out, so they don't feel the pain. It's like
38:15
Speaker 1: a blackout. So there could be times when this little
38:19
Speaker 1: girl did that. Also in terms of remembering it that
38:23
Speaker 1: she can have dissociative moments where she doesn't remember. So
38:28
Speaker 1: it's a complex trauma and she's going to be she's injured,
38:34
Speaker 1: she's emotionally injured, and she's gonna need great therapy and treatment.
38:41
Speaker 1: Nicole devoured hots Globe joining us out of tech this
38:44
Speaker 1: high profile defense attorney White and Nicole, we were very,
38:49
Speaker 1: very fortunate that this heroic child was able to get
38:52
Speaker 1: out of that home and get help. And one of
38:55
Speaker 1: the next miracles to happen is that the person who
38:58
Speaker 1: discovered her did not did not take her somewhere, did
39:03
Speaker 1: not remove her further from the scene, and did not
39:06
Speaker 1: question her. These things are so important because they will
39:10
Speaker 1: make her testimony and what she has to say ultimately
39:13
Speaker 1: to the police that much cleaner. So I'm just very
39:17
Speaker 1: glad for her. I mean, can we all get real?
39:19
Speaker 1: Just for one moment? He murdered the mother, according to
39:23
Speaker 1: the little girl, and the brother kept her alive, tied
39:28
Speaker 1: to a bed for a week, hitting her in the head,
39:32
Speaker 1: and feeding her alcohol to keep her sedated. What other
39:35
Speaker 1: motive is there other than a sex motive? I mean,
39:39
Speaker 1: am I missing something? Joe Scott helped me out. Yeah.
39:42
Speaker 1: I mean the fact that that she is restrained is
39:47
Speaker 1: a huge tell in this. You know, why, what would
39:49
Speaker 1: be your purpose? I'm using your in a universal sense,
39:53
Speaker 1: but specifically to the perpetrator. Why why would you need
39:59
Speaker 1: to keep twelve year old restrained? And you know that's
40:03
Speaker 1: the biggest thing here for me. And then you're gonna
40:05
Speaker 1: leave her in this environment and go to work, Go
40:08
Speaker 1: to work. Just think about the audacity of that. You're
40:10
Speaker 1: going to go to work working on a construction side.
40:13
Speaker 1: Remember that's where they caught this guy after he had
40:16
Speaker 1: left this poor child tied up to this bed and
40:20
Speaker 1: her family there. This member didn't decomposing, it just beats off.
40:25
Speaker 1: The metal underpinning of the mobile home was damaged and
40:29
Speaker 1: investigators believe that that may have been a part of
40:33
Speaker 1: the effort to hide the body. So if you like
40:35
Speaker 1: look at footage from the seat, it looks as though
40:38
Speaker 1: the bodies may have been found underneath the trailer, which
40:43
Speaker 1: will be brought out at trial because actions before, during,
40:46
Speaker 1: and following a crime are admissible to show course of conduct,
40:51
Speaker 1: frame of mind, scheme, motive. For right now, this little
40:57
Speaker 1: girl is alive. Wait, wait is justice and falls Nancy
41:02
Speaker 1: Grace crimbstory signing off, goodbye friend,