Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Mark Rawlins about his choice of The Savages (2/4)

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Talks to Mark Rawlins about his choice of The Savages (2/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blump. Pen knife for doing.
• 0:35
  Quicker, quicker, quicker. Welcome back to a hamster with a
• 0:42
  blump pen Knife. The Doctor Who Commentary
• 0:45
  Podcast. I'm Mark.
• 0:48
  And I'm Joe, and this is the Savages episode 2.
• 0:53
  Here I want to ask you something right?
• 0:56
  How on earth would you go about if you was Sidney Newman sitting
• 1:02
  William Hart or down and telling him he's got to leave the show?
• 1:07
  Because this conversation was not going to go down easily, was
• 1:09
  it? It must have crossed his mind,
• 1:13
  surely? Or it would probably get a bit
• 1:16
  grumpy being written out every. Or do you think he was just I'm
• 1:19
  the star of the show, you can't touch me.
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  So I'm going to have all these arguments.
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  I mean that scene in adventurous space and time.
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  Which one? And where he sat down.
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  And the one you just began the conversation now?
• 1:32
  Well. Yeah, that one.
• 1:35
  No, no. But he says.
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  Because apparently Hartnell was famously quoted as saying
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  Patrick Troun is the only other person that could play this
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  role. Yeah, but that's a bit later on
• 1:43
  after that conversation's happened, isn't it?
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  And they've said we've got this person, what do you?
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  Yeah, I mean, it must have been horrible, but.
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  Do you think he knew? Do you think he's knew he knew
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  his cars were up? Because I'm wondering if that
• 1:55
  conversation with Heather Hartnell genuinely happens.
• 2:00
  Oh, she much. I mean, she well, in that
• 2:03
  docudrama, she talks very to Lambert about it.
• 2:06
  I mean, I don't think that's it's probably too early.
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  I don't know. Saying that his memory is going
• 2:11
  a bit. You can see that in Season 2,
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  yeah. But but you, But watching the
• 2:16
  savages here, listening to the savages here, you don't get an
• 2:20
  inkling of that at all, do you? Was that an admission there that
• 2:23
  you actually have all the Doctor Who episodes you've got down in
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  the cellar? No way.
• 2:29
  If I had them, everyone, they'd be out there for everyone.
• 2:32
  I'm not one of those people that holds them or doesn't care about
• 2:35
  missing episodes. All these magical collectors
• 2:38
  that have so many cans that they can't, they can't be offered to
• 2:41
  share the Doctor Who missing episodes with people.
• 2:43
  Don't get me started. Can I ask you another question
• 2:45
  then? Yeah.
• 2:46
  Well, would it change our situation here if I in fact
• 2:49
  confessed to you that I did have every single episode of Doctor
• 2:52
  Who up in the attic? Well, I'd say how long have you
• 2:55
  had them for and why haven't you shared them with everybody else?
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  Well, cuz I like watching them myself.
• 3:00
  Wow. I know I'm very angry with you.
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  I. Forced you to watch the
• 3:04
  reconstruction of the savages because the real thing, I'll
• 3:07
  tell you what, the location works.
• 3:09
  Fantastic. Yeah, that's very good.
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  Do you know some people? So I'm going totally off.
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  William Hartnell. Now, some people have vivid
• 3:15
  memories of watching these early ones.
• 3:17
  You know, it'd be wonderful, isn't it?
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  You know, I think Gary Russell was saying to me the other week
• 3:21
  as a little name drop there that he remembers watching the sort
• 3:26
  of mid trout and stories. That's where he came in.
• 3:29
  Obviously Ian Levine has strong memories of watching The Darkest
• 3:32
  Master Plan, and it feels like he's been on a slippery slope
• 3:34
  ever since. He wrote notes, though, didn't
• 3:37
  he? He's very clever at the time, He
• 3:39
  wrote notes after he watched. Now he's writing tweets.
• 3:42
  Block capitals. Can you remember watching
• 3:44
  something like 20 years ago? Surely your memory slightly
• 3:50
  changed. A few things maybe.
• 3:52
  For sure, yeah. Cuz I remember Battlefield being
• 3:54
  fucking chilling at nine years old and I rewatch it.
• 3:57
  That dreadful special effect going around semester.
• 3:59
  McCoy is throwing himself all about the set.
• 4:02
  It would be wonderful to watch these things, though.
• 4:04
  Well, okay. So my second question is,
• 4:09
  obviously this wasn't deliberate.
• 4:11
  But do you think the first stop to be an aged in the end of
• 4:15
  those master plan, his battle of wits against the Celestial Toy
• 4:19
  Maker, his life sucking in this episode and what he goes through
• 4:27
  in the 10th planet? Do you think that you could sort
• 4:30
  of weave A narrative together that his body took a battering
• 4:33
  in late Series 3? Early Series 4 and that's what
• 4:37
  contributed to his regeneration, because I think there's a case
• 4:40
  for that. I mean, that is a yeah.
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  Looking back, you can fill in those blanks.
• 4:44
  As Terroristics would say, fans. But imagine though, if they had
• 4:49
  that kind of thought, if they thought like, you know, like a
• 4:52
  TV drama now knew who, There's a story arc.
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  If towards maybe halfway through season three like you say this
• 5:01
  arc comes in where he does battle and it's it's in the
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  narrative. All this has happened to me.
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  I'm I'm weakening and you're and you can see it and they wove it
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  into the narrative like that. Imagine if they did do that,
• 5:13
  like there was, I don't know, you know, almost like a Watcher
• 5:17
  type thing throughout or something like that or or just
• 5:21
  in the script there's little hints about his, where he's from
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  and maybe Susan. I mean, we did get that in the
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  massacre, don't we? Has that nice speech looking
• 5:29
  back. Do you know what the problem is
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  though? But yeah, imagine if they did
• 5:32
  that and then dodo. I don't know.
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  Dodo and Steven are there throughout that arc and.
• 5:37
  Well, that's like piercing it together, I'm going to say to
• 5:39
  you, but everyone changes so much.
• 5:40
  The problem is, is Dalek's master plan.
• 5:43
  Yeah, so let's do a tour maker and.
• 5:49
  The art, they're all different sets of regulars.
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  There's not one person who can tie it all to Kevin and go.
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  Well, it went through this at the end of Alex's master plan.
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  It went through this. So you can't really make
• 5:58
  reference. You can't put it all together as
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  a picture because it's been this revolving sort of door of
• 6:02
  companions coming in and out. So Polly and Ben can't go.
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  What do you remember the end of Alex's master plan?
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  He was battered to death, Father.
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  Maybe this has all been contributed to it, Steven, if
• 6:11
  Steven could have been there right through and.
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  Said this has happened. Are you any could be like no.
• 6:16
  This has a big impact on me. We need to go and find I don't
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  know X planet where I can recuperate adventure.
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  There something happens toy maker Oh this is depleted by
• 6:27
  energy. Do you?
• 6:27
  Know what we're doing? We're putting a new series spin
• 6:31
  of classic Doctor Who. But you know what?
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  Here's all part of the fun, isn't it?
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  Oh, absolutely. Of like knitting together things
• 6:38
  that were actually completely accidental.
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  It all does make a lot of sense. No, I think you're right.
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  All those different things were, let's see what we can do.
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  And if one of them was very successful, or something
• 6:49
  happened to William Hart, or big argument happened, they could be
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  like, right now we've changed it.
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  We're quite lucky that this whole regeneration thing
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  happened, because imagine if it was a Celestial Toy Maker and
• 7:01
  that's how it happened. What?
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  I guess every time Celestial Toy Maker has to pop up or or it
• 7:07
  just wouldn't happen, it would just stop with patch of.
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  Shrimp every single time for an out of engines.
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  Every single time Michael Goff appears, the Doctor's like, ohh,
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  fuck it, yeah. I'm going to change again.
• 7:17
  Anyway, let's let's start episode 2, because we've skipped
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  ahead a bit. Yes, we've got lots of extra
• 7:22
  material on these episodes. As we've said, Liz Canon
• 7:24
  reconstruction Episode 2 now Yeah, here we go.
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  And we left Dodo screaming down a corridor.
• 7:30
  Oh, can I just say ask you another question, please?
• 7:32
  Yeah, I'm full of them. Oh, you are.
• 7:34
  That's some brain food. That's why.
• 7:36
  The last bit of pork. Oh, sorry, Lauren Cornelius.
• 7:41
  Oh yes, the new dodo. Absolutely in Big Finish.
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  She's great, isn't she? Yeah.
• 7:47
  She's proper spunky. She's great, yeah.
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  But I feel like she's been written with a bit more smarts
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  than the usual dodo. No normal dodo is smart, as we
• 7:57
  are seeing right now in the savages.
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  She's well, she will in a minute.
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  In this scene. She's been attacked by a
• 8:03
  primitive man at the moment, but.
• 8:06
  Is she supposed to be a middle class because she goes, oh, he
• 8:08
  was like a dirty savage. I think she's supposed to be a
• 8:13
  bit middle class. Can we all just have a moment,
• 8:17
  everybody, to congratulate Joe on very minimal vibrator talk
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  last episode? It could have taken over, It
• 8:25
  could have been a big moment, but actually we skimmed that bit
• 8:27
  quite sensibly, didn't we? So, well done everybody.
• 8:31
  Or do you know why? Why?
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  Because I had my reacting vibrator going on the old time
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  while I was doing the commentary.
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  Excuse me? Don't you be coming on this
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  thing and making assertions about me.
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  All right, well, okay. So dodo, this is a bit of a
• 8:48
  recap here. She's going down this fabulous
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  Venetian blind corridor again and she's ones off.
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  Nobody's really missed her at the moment.
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  We've still got Nanina being zapped.
• 9:00
  Inside who? Nanina.
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  They're going to. Do it.
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  No, no, not that way. You know what, though?
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  She might be an insolent, primitive savage, but she's
• 9:11
  still got fabulous hair. I love this set.
• 9:14
  From what we can see here, these sort of gloves got this
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  laboratory thing. Oh well, that's not the most
• 9:19
  flattering. Thing That's good.
• 9:23
  What's the 60s folks remember? But Dodo can hear what's going
• 9:27
  on with Nanina and he's sort of investigating and he's going to
• 9:29
  walk in and just. Was this the episode where you
• 9:31
  had the steal the telesnap of when they take her out?
• 9:35
  Yeah. Honestly.
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  Her. Her trousers are riding around.
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  What's the name? John Cora?
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  Oh, I'm taking a snap of that. Quick.
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  John Nacho. You people.
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  One of them for me. Dirty out man.
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  Oh, he's like God in my bill bag.
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  If you're going through all these like.
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  Chills other Teller snaps that. He's got, well, I think he
• 9:56
  batted both ways because he's the one who took the picture of
• 9:58
  Ben with his kit off. Yeah.
• 10:00
  Oh my God, maybe he's got a whole extra set of.
• 10:02
  Them. He had lovely nipples.
• 10:04
  Honestly. Michael Grace.
• 10:05
  Oh my God. No, not John Cora.
• 10:07
  I don't know what his nipples were like.
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  I just know what. Yeah, right.
• 10:13
  Do you know what? Right, Yeah.
• 10:14
  Once Upon a time I met this bloke.
• 10:16
  Yeah, honestly, he had nipples. Yeah, but the size of teacups
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  were massive. I went, oh, you should get no
• 10:24
  scene too. They lost someone to dine them
• 10:26
  out. Sorry.
• 10:28
  Oh, right. Now, look, this is what I like.
• 10:29
  What they do with the telesnap reconstructions is they have
• 10:34
  still pictures, but they had a bit of movement.
• 10:36
  So for the sequences of the Doctor being sucked.
• 10:40
  They've got like, bubbling vats going on, haven't they?
• 10:43
  But do you know what I mean? It draws your eye a bit.
• 10:45
  It does. Yeah, it does help.
• 10:47
  It's nicer though when they've got just like 5 seconds of
• 10:50
  moving footage. You know, just like actually, at
• 10:52
  the end of the story, I think Steven says goodbye.
• 10:55
  Somebody did that, Little Cindy. Cow, look.
• 10:57
  They've cut out Dodo from the war machines where she's been
• 10:59
  hypnotized. I don't think Jacqueline looked
• 11:02
  that dense when she was walking down the corridor.
• 11:05
  Oh, this, this scientist fellow, yeah, of the Elders.
• 11:10
  He just wants to get on with his work.
• 11:11
  He keeps getting interrupted by dodos, all the bugs.
• 11:14
  He is dodo coming in and saying what's going on in the
• 11:17
  laboratory, which I really like. She's getting her own screen
• 11:20
  time, and meanwhile the Doctor is still sitting with.
• 11:24
  No, but with the elders. No, no, no way.
• 11:26
  He has cottoned on. He knows things aren't as simple
• 11:30
  as they're telling him. Like they're going, Oh yeah, you
• 11:33
  know, we get all these life energies and stuff and we're,
• 11:35
  you know, it allows us to paint fabulous pictures and.
• 11:38
  And do wonderful science and things.
• 11:40
  But the second he goes back to the TARDIS and he sees a
• 11:44
  primitive sock dry, he says, you know, I knew there was something
• 11:48
  evil about them. So he's playing them along.
• 11:51
  He's a very kind at this point, you think, Or is it as soon as
• 11:55
  he sees later? On he knows.
• 11:56
  Look, look at that. Still, he's looking very
• 11:58
  thoughtful. Do you know what Can I confess?
• 12:02
  Something about William Harnell. Yeah.
• 12:04
  When the wind is in the right direction.
• 12:06
  Yeah, I'm talking about I am. Not about to say fancy William
• 12:12
  Harnell, but just honest to God, Will you just let me have a
• 12:14
  moment of being seriously critical?
• 12:17
  No, when the wind is in the right direction.
• 12:20
  Yeah, I'm talking the Romans. I'm talking the Aztecs.
• 12:24
  Yeah, I'm talking Dallas Moss. Plan Massacre.
• 12:28
  I think he's my favorite doctor. Oh yeah, that's not a yeah, of
• 12:32
  course. Like he's the Governor and he
• 12:34
  he's the original. Absolutely.
• 12:36
  And I do wonder, you know, the sort of authority that he has.
• 12:40
  Yeah. I'm not sure any of the doctors
• 12:42
  have commanded that sort of authority since not that sort
• 12:44
  of, I can't, no. Why he does in this the way that
• 12:47
  when he goes has a go and says? Disgusting experiments.
• 12:51
  And he's like, we must stop them.
• 12:52
  I'm going to stop you. You know he's going to even like
• 12:55
  Tom Baker. Is Scalliest doesn't have that.
• 12:57
  Power. When Hartnell is angry and he
• 12:59
  bares his teeth. Yeah, and his eyes are blazing,
• 13:02
  I won't be on the other side. Oh my God, I'll be shitting
• 13:05
  myself. If he came at me to give me a
• 13:09
  jolly good smack bottom, I'll be out there very pretty quick.
• 13:13
  No, no, no. But I mean my point is this is
• 13:15
  even when like he is on the decline, he's still very
• 13:20
  impressive thing in this I've. Seen him in other things.
• 13:24
  Well, he's I watched him in, seen him Brighton Rock and I
• 13:30
  watched the beginning of this sport in life.
• 13:32
  What was that film you said you saw in him that was full of all
• 13:36
  the gaming? What was that about?
• 13:39
  This sport in life is about a rugby player and basically it's
• 13:46
  about his sport in life, his career on the pit.
• 13:49
  So there was lots of shots of people's bottom life, like in
• 13:52
  the. Trust you to be watching that.
• 13:54
  I'm just saying it just happened.
• 13:55
  I didn't know that was going to happen.
• 13:57
  But you said you were quite shocked that Hartner was in
• 13:59
  something that was that home erotic, didn't you?
• 14:01
  Well. I don't think he was for the
• 14:03
  gays, you know, all the blacks, all women, or actually to know
• 14:07
  what. I actually think he was quite
• 14:09
  progressive when it came to women.
• 14:12
  What do you mean? Because, well, you know, in
• 14:14
  those early stories, Barbara's got a very strong, commanding
• 14:18
  role, and sometimes she bests him.
• 14:21
  But yeah, but I think at the time, there were men that were
• 14:23
  incredibly patronizing to female actresses.
• 14:26
  They wouldn't, they wouldn't let women go at him like Barbara
• 14:28
  does in Barbara does in Edge of Destruction.
• 14:31
  Yeah, but there's character in this real life.
• 14:35
  Yeah, but by all accounts as well, he could be very warm with
• 14:38
  people, you know? I think it's so, yeah,
• 14:40
  absolutely. I think all with.
• 14:42
  People he didn't like around this time, the general, the sort
• 14:46
  of shorthand and fan thing is, oh, he was grumpy.
• 14:48
  It was difficult to work with all this kind of stuff.
• 14:50
  That rubbish for every person around this time that said he
• 14:53
  was difficult to work with. There's somebody was like,
• 14:54
  actually he was all right. So I think, again, go back ten
• 14:58
  years, you had a bad day at work and everybody's going to
• 15:01
  remember that one bad day or afternoon you had.
• 15:04
  But all the regulars and they love me about it, I think.
• 15:06
  But then day-to-day. Yeah.
• 15:09
  And you go into work and you have a good.
• 15:10
  So I think it's. I don't think it's.
• 15:12
  I do feel like it's exaggerated a.
• 15:14
  Little bit. Bear in mind he was in this
• 15:15
  story. He was.
• 15:16
  Sick, wasn't he? And and you know, like it was a
• 15:19
  form of dementia that he had and I and you can get testy and
• 15:24
  frustrated, but I think he wanted it to be, yeah, the best
• 15:27
  it could be. He wanted the work to be good.
• 15:29
  As you get annoyed at work or whatever, maybe things aren't
• 15:32
  going well or you want everything as good as possible
• 15:36
  and you get you're not. You don't get like Winnie
• 15:39
  Martin. Or I don't bear Marty.
• 15:41
  No. But you would do that, wouldn't
• 15:43
  you? I think everybody does that.
• 15:45
  If it's not, you want something, you want to do a good job.
• 15:47
  But apparently as well, somebody is just, you know, somebody
• 15:50
  isn't doing what, they're all messing around and there's time
• 15:53
  and there's pressure, incredible pressure to get these things.
• 15:57
  There is a story. I'll never go everyone about.
• 16:00
  That sounds really horny. There is a story about Caroline
• 16:04
  Ford and William Hartnell having a massive Barney and then
• 16:07
  Hartnell realized how strong he'd been and he left a hamper
• 16:13
  or flowers or something in her dressing room with a little note
• 16:16
  saying I'm sorry, so and and more.
• 16:18
  Brian talks about him. Very funny.
• 16:20
  So does Peter Purvis, and I'm sure Jackie Lane got on with him
• 16:23
  as well. He hated him going though,
• 16:25
  didn't he? I think they were like allies
• 16:27
  the the people that places are regular and he hated them going.
• 16:30
  But I don't think it's as bad as things are said.
• 16:32
  I mean, someone like, you know, by the time you get to 10th
• 16:35
  Planet and Annika Wills is saying terrible things about
• 16:38
  him, really. And Annika?
• 16:39
  Wills. He says terrible things about,
• 16:41
  you know, But actually, if you were having a bad day and Annika
• 16:43
  wills waltzed in being on everything I'm in, you are going
• 16:47
  to get annoyed, aren't you? Especially when you know you're
• 16:50
  kind of on your way out. She's like, oh, I'm the new
• 16:52
  young thing or whatever. We're coming in and there's
• 16:54
  William Martin all being like another one, you know?
• 16:57
  Like, really, you know? Another You can imagine that
• 17:00
  though, and his bosses aren't being nice to him and stuff.
• 17:04
  I mean, you get that feeling that actually you don't blame
• 17:07
  him. Really.
• 17:08
  I mean, I drop down and have a sleep for episode 3.
• 17:11
  If I think I'll be like I'm peaceing out for this episode,
• 17:16
  guys, take over. But so it's like to sum all this
• 17:19
  up that William Harnell, I think like he's the sort of actor
• 17:23
  where like like he's a very good actor, but.
• 17:27
  There were moments where he fails a little bit because he's
• 17:31
  sick, but wait, but that's the excitement, because when he
• 17:34
  really knocks it out of the park, like at the end of the
• 17:37
  massacre or the end of the Dynas master plan, or is this when
• 17:41
  he's fucking furious in a minute it's like, yes, this is some
• 17:45
  serious, powerful acting. It's just then I'm just trying
• 17:50
  to think about obviously we've got the war machines, smugglers,
• 17:54
  10th family when 10th planet he's not.
• 17:58
  At his best, do we get anything in The Smugglers where it's his
• 18:01
  last grade? Yeah.
• 18:03
  Don't we get those moments with the pirate on the ship Jamaica
• 18:06
  that he's falling really, really funny here we sort of facing up
• 18:11
  against the elders here and. We've got Frederick Yeager here.
• 18:13
  Who is Professor Sorenson from Planet of Evil?
• 18:16
  And Professor Marius? From Invisible Enemy and
• 18:19
  Creative Canine What? No, that was Bob Baker and Dave
• 18:23
  Martin in the story. Oh yes, of course.
• 18:26
  I hope his toilet trains. Oh, imagine if they're canine
• 18:29
  here. Dodo and canine.
• 18:31
  Perfect combination. And Stephen as well.
• 18:34
  I'm not. Sure, we could handle the Sakuri
• 18:37
  measure of K9 to this team here. How perfect would that be?
• 18:41
  I do wish they'd had a bit more time, do you know, and a bit
• 18:44
  more sort of a stable period. But yeah, mind you, I really
• 18:47
  like the First Doctor, Polly and Ben as well, you know, don't
• 18:51
  you? Going in a couple, but I think
• 18:53
  they're really fun equals him. Governor.
• 18:55
  What governor? I mean, you can see that they
• 18:57
  respect him and they it's a different fit.
• 18:59
  I like this Steven and Dodo. I prefer that over bed and
• 19:02
  party. Oh.
• 19:02
  My God, this is that bit where he goes Here.
• 19:04
  I'm done with this vibrator. Yeah, take it back to the tire
• 19:07
  this hardest. Someone does that to you, don't
• 19:09
  they? Oh, dear.
• 19:13
  And there's some thing here it's you get a bit of Terry Nation
• 19:15
  space medicine here, he's like dodo, go to the cupboard, get
• 19:18
  this pill, that's D. 35 Bring it back for me, and then and that
• 19:21
  will be that will cure the savage here.
• 19:24
  What's that all about? That's a.
• 19:26
  Funny way, dispensing space medicine and then Stephen Andodo
• 19:29
  were like, oh, that seems to do the trick.
• 19:31
  Give him another one. Don't worry about it being an
• 19:33
  overdosed or anything, just give him another one.
• 19:36
  Why have he's got such sophisticated medicine?
• 19:38
  Why didn't he cure her STD? Because she hasn't had it.
• 19:41
  Well, she had it yet. No, she hasn't had it yet.
• 19:44
  No, but she gets it. Yeah, but she didn't know, I
• 19:46
  don't think. Well, he's been to the future.
• 19:48
  Oh, surely they killed the ball by then.
• 19:49
  And the treatment she gets to know who killed Kennedy as well.
• 19:52
  Oh, she gets blown off in the air since 90s.
• 19:54
  She gets a red blown off. It's appalling.
• 19:57
  It is appalling. But you know what was nice?
• 19:59
  Do you remember when she passed? From space.
• 20:03
  Everyone was fucking in the New Adventures when, for God's
• 20:06
  sakes, everyone was at it. Do you remember when Jacqueline
• 20:09
  passed? And there was that outpouring of
• 20:12
  love for Dodo and Jacqueline. Yes, I really like that.
• 20:16
  We were at a convention, at a phantom convention where they
• 20:20
  knew Dracula, didn't they quite well, and they did a lovely
• 20:23
  montage of clips and interviews of her.
• 20:25
  Yeah, it's really shame. It's a shame that she wasn't.
• 20:30
  I hope she knew how much people liked her.
• 20:33
  You know what? And.
• 20:33
  Appreciate that. That's the thing.
• 20:35
  Is that story about Toby Hadoke meeting her on the train.
• 20:38
  Yeah, it leads me to police. She was always happy to talk
• 20:40
  about, but she didn't ever seek other.
• 20:42
  He said that she was very self efficient and she had no desire
• 20:45
  for fame. Didn't do any acting after this.
• 20:47
  She was an agent. Was an agent?
• 20:49
  Yeah. Who wasn't there?
• 20:50
  Doctor Who people. She was an agent.
• 20:52
  Was she really? What, at the time?
• 20:54
  No, no, later on I think. Oh, that was amazing.
• 20:59
  Oh, here we get William. What was getting angry?
• 21:01
  Can we turn it out later when he gets really crossed, and I'm not
• 21:03
  that way when he gets, when he talks here as well, like
• 21:07
  exhaust. He goes on a bit of a journey,
• 21:10
  doesn't he? Because he starts off trying to
• 21:12
  kill Nanina and he ends up trying to fuck her.
• 21:14
  I mean it's quite, you know, this story in terms of, you
• 21:18
  know, if you watched this or if you listened to this a lot.
• 21:20
  No, see, I don't think I have it.
• 21:22
  I. Like it with this one I've heard
• 21:24
  a million times. And I quote it to you back to
• 21:26
  front. This one I've barely heard.
• 21:28
  And yeah, every time I watch it. Or listen to it, I'm I walk away
• 21:32
  impressed. I've got a doco ho reviews yes,
• 21:34
  I am doco ho. Well, I gave it 8 out of 10.
• 21:37
  Yeah. So why you hadn't really until I
• 21:39
  did it for to watch who and actually sat down on what?
• 21:42
  I'd never seen the telesnaps for this before.
• 21:44
  Maybe you heard the soundtrack a little bit and not really got
• 21:46
  all the way through. But do you sit down and
• 21:49
  concentrate and go through this? And I would choose this again to
• 21:52
  watch now and enjoy it. I'm always and I was what you
• 21:56
  choose and you know, yeah, I mean but like and now I know the
• 22:00
  story a bit. It's a good story.
• 22:02
  Do you not remember? We were walking into town and
• 22:03
  you said, I want to do the sandwiches.
• 22:04
  And I just stopped in my tracks. Like, really?
• 22:07
  It's a good story. It is.
• 22:09
  Yeah, it is. Do you think this sort of
• 22:12
  morality play works well in Doctor Who?
• 22:15
  Yeah, because like the sophisticated society bleeding
• 22:19
  off, I think it works better in six lower.
• 22:22
  Classes, because then sometimes you get things like.
• 22:26
  Like we said earlier, it's very prescient.
• 22:27
  It's very, it's apparent now we haven't all got beers like that
• 22:32
  and going around in, you know, furs and skins and things, but
• 22:37
  the very nature of the upper classes sucking the life out of
• 22:41
  the lower classes. But it's that sort of arrogance
• 22:45
  as well that you know, we deserve it.
• 22:48
  They play it really well in this.
• 22:52
  But okay, I'm going to talk about Rusty Davies for a second
• 22:55
  there, because he says that a Doctor Who should never really
• 22:58
  go off to Planet Zok. And this is literally Planet
• 23:01
  Zok, isn't it? You know, a lot of people we
• 23:03
  don't know. It could really be Earth in the
• 23:06
  future, or an Earth colony or something that.
• 23:08
  Would have been quite nice, wouldn't it?
• 23:11
  But great creatures we're not. Oh my God.
• 23:14
  Imagine if the end of episode two was.
• 23:16
  You know, they go down onto the quarry beach and there's a
• 23:19
  Statue of Liberty sticking out of it.
• 23:21
  No, it was up for a loss. This is Mid Zog.
• 23:27
  Mid level ZOG Yeah, it's not totally out, which is what I
• 23:31
  mean, something in the 70s. In the ZOG office for example,
• 23:36
  Meg loss or something. Oh, that is, that is ZOG to ZOG.
• 23:39
  That is, you know, and they could be all ZOG here, you know,
• 23:42
  but you think it's. The soggy SOG.
• 23:43
  They could all be wearing their blonde wigs and stuff, but
• 23:45
  they're not. It's too recognizable.
• 23:47
  Oh my God, you know what the Zoggy is Soggy is, don't you?
• 23:49
  Time lash exactly. A time lash would make a loss
• 23:52
  are in that category. We've been over Zogg in that
• 23:55
  season. More acceptable, I think.
• 23:57
  Why is the word Zogg so funny? Do you remember Zook and sag
• 24:01
  from the big breasts? I thought, I've always got to
• 24:08
  sing one kids program every time we're on this thing. 6 seconds
• 24:12
  and here again, we don't have much for the Martin.
• 24:15
  He's gone off. He's been taken back to the
• 24:18
  thing. So actually they are still
• 24:19
  writing sparingly, aren't? They but Peter Purves has been
• 24:22
  taking the lead in this Series A lot.
• 24:25
  I wonder if there was any sort of consideration for someone
• 24:28
  like him to take over, take over, or?
• 24:31
  I doubt it. No.
• 24:33
  Well, it's interesting because this is, I don't know if I
• 24:36
  dropped this in the first episode.
• 24:37
  I meant to this is the first story that was properly
• 24:40
  commissioned by Jerry Davis. So he he did the Celestial
• 24:46
  Toolmaker and the Gunfires, but those weren't they were done by
• 24:49
  Tosh and Wiles and they just brought them to the screen.
• 24:53
  Jerry Davis did, but this is the first actual story he
• 24:56
  commissioned and is seeing off Steven.
• 24:58
  The next story they commissioned is seeing off Dodo.
• 25:01
  They wanted to change the show. They didn't want it.
• 25:03
  They wanted to go to the war machines format, Unity format
• 25:08
  format. In mind Sort of scientific base
• 25:10
  format, isn't it? Based under siege?
• 25:12
  Oh my God, turn out there. Here we go.
• 25:14
  This is the Doctor in humanity. He's having a guy, It's great.
• 25:20
  He's most unscientific while standing in the way of human
• 25:23
  progress. Human progress.
• 25:26
  How dare you call your 300 these people?
• 25:30
  How dare you call this human progress?
• 25:32
  Are actors going up against each other?
• 25:34
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely brilliant.
• 25:37
  But can I say something? Yeah, there's something that
• 25:39
  classic Doctor Who is absolutely famous for is it doesn't always
• 25:45
  have the budget to do massive set pieces and things like that,
• 25:47
  but you get 2 fucking strong actors against Gabriel Wolf and
• 25:51
  Tom Baker. Can you give me some more
• 25:54
  examples? Sheila Hancock and Sylvester
• 25:56
  McCoy, How did Conor Baker go up against that was really, really
• 26:01
  strong. Well, Terry Malloy in Revelation
• 26:04
  of Daleks, Michael Jason. Yeah, Tony Baker and Michael
• 26:07
  Jason. Like, that's where the drama is,
• 26:10
  isn't it? Yeah, Yeah.
• 26:12
  And it's very, yeah. And this, in terms of set and
• 26:14
  everything, we're not back on. We're not on location anymore.
• 26:17
  We are in a very small studio with trees all around the
• 26:20
  scrubland, scrubland. You know what's so funny?
• 26:23
  In a minute. But the doctor goes, no, I don't
• 26:26
  wish to see your nauseating experiments.
• 26:28
  And then they take him in there he realizes this is his turn
• 26:31
  next. And he goes, Excuse me,
• 26:32
  gentlemen, but there's something you seem to have forgotten
• 26:34
  about. I do not submit to your
• 26:36
  experiments. Look at make any line absolutely
• 26:43
  sing. So the Doctor is being taken
• 26:47
  into the laboratory now. It's quite quirky idea, isn't
• 26:49
  it? And then you got another actor
• 26:51
  doing a William Hartner impression.
• 26:52
  Oh, when it gets to that, that is perfect.
• 26:54
  He plays it well, but you know a bold accounts.
• 26:56
  I was reading on Wiki earlier so I don't know what the veracity
• 26:59
  of this information is. Hartnell coached him on every
• 27:04
  little and dear boys you know but.
• 27:09
  What happens then is this goes from being a morality play to
• 27:12
  being like a battle of witch cuz the Doctor's inside his head,
• 27:15
  didn't he? And he is starting to get the
• 27:17
  Doctor's morality and he's starting to say no, this is
• 27:21
  wrong, it's so interesting. Well, I could have done that in
• 27:24
  time. And Ronnie.
• 27:24
  When Ronnie was turned into mail.
• 27:28
  Imagine if their personality stopped.
• 27:31
  I was only dressed up, really. She wasn't sucked, but you know,
• 27:34
  for. Some reason I I want to give up
• 27:36
  being evil, get on, get on an exercise bike or no, just comes
• 27:40
  around again. It's what so Esther McCoy did
• 27:42
  when he was inside that brain, wouldn't it?
• 27:44
  Yeah. Really.
• 27:44
  This is not the time for double entendres.
• 27:48
  What? He says Blessed are the pie
• 27:49
  makers because they will make light, pays dreams.
• 27:52
  Oh my God, look at how he's tucking his lapels.
• 27:56
  That's his signature move. You know, a bit like John
• 27:59
  Pertway in the face stroke. Yes.
• 28:02
  Yeah, Yeah, the sort of shoulder.
• 28:04
  What? Other signature moves are there.
• 28:07
  Oh, Colin Baker tickled his little cat, his little pussy on
• 28:10
  his on his lapel. He did.
• 28:12
  He didn't tickle Barry's pussy. He's just.
• 28:15
  I could see your face. I could see your face.
• 28:19
  What about Semester McCoy? That is Brolly.
• 28:22
  Really. Didn't they Brolly?
• 28:23
  And this is a play about that little sorts and it's ours and
• 28:26
  it's everything. It's ours or.
• 28:29
  It's ours. You played the spoons on Kate
• 28:32
  Amara's chest. You know, yeah.
• 28:35
  Imagine I'd love to see Kay O'mana's Ronnie up.
• 28:38
  Against Kate O'mana. Up against William Arno here.
• 28:42
  Oh my. Gosh, Mark, there is no screen
• 28:46
  big enough for William Arno or Kate O'Mara.
• 28:49
  Can you imagine? He'd be like, how dare you,
• 28:53
  Ronnie? Why does your William Arno sound
• 28:57
  like you're John Poe And here we go.
• 29:00
  So the doctors being put into the machine.
• 29:01
  You got a bit of sweat on his face or snow or something.
• 29:04
  I think that's just a dirty teller stamp.
• 29:05
  Oh, OK. I think John has been on that
• 29:08
  one. Do you know what?
• 29:09
  As can I just say one thing? As Doctor Who fans, right I've
• 29:12
  now said this a million times. We see here scrutinizing these
• 29:15
  still images. I mean, we must really fucking
• 29:18
  love this thing to be doing this.
• 29:20
  And even, you know, I know he was being paid to take these
• 29:22
  Heller stamps and stuff. But if.
• 29:24
  You choose, but I think it's I I don't actually think it was.
• 29:30
  He just pressed it himself. I think he just set it up and he
• 29:33
  just did every minute or so. So I think he just did it there
• 29:37
  and he was going doing something else.
• 29:38
  He probably wasn't even watching himself and we're studying all
• 29:41
  these things and John didn't even bother.
• 29:43
  He was like, there's your print out.
• 29:46
  They requested how many pictures you could have because imagine,
• 29:49
  oh, maybe you have to set his camera up again, you know, back
• 29:51
  then the technology was a bit slow.
• 29:53
  You know, I hope cameras go in right time for another picture.
• 29:57
  Yeah, you know. Imagine if you'd done like 300
• 30:00
  pictures per episode or something.
• 30:02
  We'd almost have a healthy yeah, He might as well.
• 30:04
  There's a scene that he could have got, like a video recorder
• 30:08
  and made an actual copy. Oh yeah.
• 30:13
  John Kira, you lazy git. But also, weren't they making
• 30:15
  copies for overseas by putting up a camera in front of the TV
• 30:19
  and just filming it? Yeah, well, I know that was.
• 30:21
  The footage we've got from this story is telefilm from someone
• 30:24
  filming a TV. So why couldn't he done that I?
• 30:28
  Don't know the Eternal? What if about the missing
• 30:31
  episodes, isn't it? You should be grateful.
• 30:34
  Oh, absolutely. Should I got something?
• 30:36
  They've got technology now right that they can put color into
• 30:39
  black and white. They can put, they can take the
• 30:41
  dots out of the black and white. Why have you?
• 30:43
  Seen manipulate them into color. Have you seen where they do that
• 30:47
  sort of deep fake where you've got a telesnap and then they
• 30:48
  make it move in the mouths move and stuff.
• 30:50
  You can do something like that. We won't be watching the savages
• 30:53
  like that moving. I saw William Martin.
• 30:55
  Or puckering his lips up the other way.
• 30:57
  It looked very, very strange. Oh, it's ended what I heard.
• 31:00
  Oh, it's the Doctors being sucked.
• 31:02
  A little bit of a slow episode there in terms of what happened
• 31:05
  because really the Doctor was captured and put in a thing and
• 31:08
  they just there's a I mean there's a bit more sort of back
• 31:11
  history going on there. But actually in terms of action,
• 31:14
  once Dodo's discovered it, the dog just tied up.
• 31:17
  It does. It has slowed down a little bit,
• 31:19
  she. Discovers a bit early and then
• 31:21
  we basically just stop. Until he confronts them, yeah.
• 31:26
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's still great.
• 31:28
  It's still a good story. And it is a good story, but
• 31:31
  episode 3 has a ton of running around.
• 31:33
  I think it because the guards come down to towns after him a
• 31:35
  lot. It's a really great scene, you
• 31:37
  know, It's in the pitch black with all this torchlight going.
• 31:40
  I bet it looked amazing. I can't wait to do that.
• 31:43
  I mean, see that?