Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / From Sheriff to Ex-Felon to Priest - Father Joe Ciconne

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From Sheriff to Ex-Felon to Priest - Father Joe Ciconne · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:04
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy. Welcome to the Nightmare Success
0:07
In and Out podcast. But we explore how to overcome
0:10
your fears and nightmares and set yourself free.
0:13
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:15
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:20
These stories can be inspiring, sometimes.
0:22
Sad. There's some humor, but
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hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
0:27
help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in your own
0:30
mind. Welcome back, nightmare,
0:35
success. In and out, listeners.
0:37
It's where you guys come for you.
0:39
Know what happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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How do you adapt, survive. Overcome, Set yourself free?
0:46
I love these stories, but I got to tell you.
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The other day I was talking to my guests.
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Father known as Father Joe, Father Joseph Ciccone.
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And it's a fascinating story because, you know, before we got
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started here, we're talking about, you know, why?
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Why are people drawn in to these type of stories?
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I think it's because we all have times when we hit our peak and
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then we fall down. And that is when you really find
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your true self. Like how do you get up and how
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do you get to the next step. And father Joe he had an
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incredible peak He he spent his life and as a police officer he
1:33
got elected as sheriff of one of the OR the largest county in New
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Jersey Bergen County. And I mean when I say it's big,
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it was over 500 officers and and $41 million budget and a lot
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going on. And in his world as it was
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moving along, it ended up where he had it all came down to
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campaign contributions and and trying to untangle that and
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investigations and whatever, that all comes into play.
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And he picked himself up after this big story.
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I mean it was covered in the New York Times and other places and
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when those things happen there's nowhere to hide.
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And when I I'm referencing him as Father Joe, he became a
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Catholic priest after all this took place.
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And he's doing things now to fill up himself and other people
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in his own lives by being able to use his story to help others
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through their struggles and and where they are in life.
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I can't wait to unpack all this. This is this is a, you know,
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I've never had someone who's had the struggles and has become a
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Catholic priest. So like, I just the story, it
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fascinates me. And we had a great conversation
2:54
last week and I've been excited to do this interview.
2:58
Before we unpack all that, want to make sure that I recognize
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success since you OK Father Joe, welcome.
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How are you doing today? I am doing wonderful, Brent.
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Thank you for having me here. Thank you to your audience.
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You tunes in, just great to be here.
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It's great to be able to share a story that.
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Isn't unique to me alone or do you so your your listeners I'm
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sure. But before we begin, I just want
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to do a bit of clarification. Even though I am a Catholic
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priest, we are old Catholic. And just for your audience,
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Catholicism has three components.
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Roman Catholic and even though I grew up Roman Catholic, I went
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to Catholic school, Old Catholic, which is where the
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schism took place. And there's one Pope in Lyon and
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one in Rome. And then Orthodoxy, which is.
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Roman and Greek, etcetera. So I am part of the middle.
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I am an old Catholic priest, although we call ourselves
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progressive, and actually we call our church, really, I'm
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just like you refer to your listeners as the Church of
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second chances, that those people who have fallen down,
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those people who have made a mistake, are always wealthy.
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And one of the other things that we do very different from Rome
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is because of that idea of second chances.
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We have an open table, so anyone is welcome to communion.
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What we tell people is we're a progressive Catholic Church at
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this table on this body of Christ is not a reward for being
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a good Catholic or a good Christian.
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This is food for your journey. So anyone, anyone is welcome.
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Everyone was and I've always said that I always thought that
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was interesting Father Joe because I went to dismiss there
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was a Catholic school and because I was not Catholic I
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couldn't take comedian. But I was thinking I did know
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the Bible and I know that when Jesus gathered his disciples
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around the table I don't think he ever said take this all you
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Catholics. So it was always fascinating,
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the. Whole point to this he did not.
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And you know, ironically, the. The group that's most affected
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by this are women, and that breaks my heart.
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Women who had gone through a divorce or Shaley may have had
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to give up a child through abortion are completely
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restricted and we do not believe in that at all.
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Jesus would never say to knows to someone, especially those who
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are in pain and suffering and who need comfort and love.
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So that's what this role is all about now.
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I love it. I love it.
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Now you know the other thing I want to do is I want to give a
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shout out to Jeff Grant because he he runs the Progressive
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prison ministries and he was nice enough to connect me with
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you and Jeff does incredible work.
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He was a he was a guest on this show and and he also has an
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incredible story and is is doing really good work and connecting
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a lot of people to in this John you know that we're in this
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arena that we're in trying to get the word out the second
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chances are possible and and just a good man So father Joe I
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want to take I want to take us back a little bit because to
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understand your story I think we have to go back to your you know
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when you were growing up as a kid and your parents and your
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dad and your mom what was life like for you.
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I grew up in a middle class. Suburb of New York City, right a
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mile away from the George Washington Bridge.
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My dad was on a second career at that point.
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At 27 years old, he got married to my mom.
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They both had met in junior high school.
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Dad was the captain of the basketball team.
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My mom, Catherine, or Kitty as everyone called her, was the
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head cheerleader. They were a rock'n'roll Italian
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couple and. 27 years old. Dad gave up being a a painter
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and became a policeman and two years later I am the first of
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three that were born by Kitty and Joe and apparently I was a
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bit of a handful. They said.
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So four years old when my baby sister was born, they shipped me
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off to Catholic school, Sacred Heart Polish Catholic Roman
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Catholic School in North Bergen, NJ and.
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Actually there, I truly fell in love with God, and that's where
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this journey landed me. But at four years old, I put on
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the Catholic school uniform. At 19 years old, when I took
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that Catholic school uniform off, I followed in my dad's
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footsteps and I put on a police uniform.
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And I spent the next 20 years wearing that uniform with great
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pride and great resilience. Dad was.
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Dad was a really? Great provider, but it was very,
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very tough. He was a former United States
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Marine and so it was a very strict household.
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How was that for you though? Father Joe was with a dad who's
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who's in the police force in a strict environment, You know,
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there's there's you know, I'm sure it was strict.
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How, how did you work through that is as a teenager and and
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growing into that world? That is such a great question
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and and of course it's very personal question.
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And I I was slightly rebellious and even though I was a goody 2
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shoes Catholic schoolboy I had challenges with that.
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So I would buck that as much as I could and ironically, you
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know, I'd become a cop not to be like that and I vividly recall
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as teenager saying. I'm going to be a cop to show
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you how to do it the right way, to be kind and to be gentle and
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to help people. And the irony is, you know, he
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guided me to that whole 3 year. My first three years I worked
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under his command in a small. Small town this like Park New
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Jersey. What was that like?
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I mean, I can't. It's almost like I I'm thinking
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father Joe that might be like, you know your dad's the coach of
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of your your basketball or your football team.
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What did you feel like that you were just one of the guys or did
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you feel like how that's dad? You know, I'm either getting a
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better deal or I'm getting a harder deal?
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Dad was very clear about you want to do this, it's not going
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to be easy and you're going to get no favoritism.
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I got yelled at friends every single day.
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No matter what I did. I and it would be in front of
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the other. The other cops like it screamed
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and yelled at but it only made me want to work harder at being
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better at this job. And then I I took civil service
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test and the next town Fairview is I did very well on that test.
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That came out number one, and I spent most of my career there
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until near the end. Where?
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Because of politics? Well, actually, I'll I'll hear
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this story because it's important.
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It was a great cop, strong, loyal, and he was a captain and
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he was up to be promoted to the chief of police.
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And he didn't get it. He got skipped over by someone
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who was really on the same level but wasn't doing the work my dad
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was doing. So Dad left and he left, not
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happy. And the mayor of that town was
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also the Bergen County Democratic chairman.
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So very, very powerful man. So Dad leaves not happy and he
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even gets sick over it. He winds up getting pulling
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cancer, just goes to the stress and the horror.
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But he recovers. He goes eight years cancer free.
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Everything is actually going well, but a few years pass and
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then that Democratic chairman. Of Bergen County pulls me at the
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Fairview Police Department. I'm at that time acting
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Lieutenant, running the detective Bureau, running the
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DARE program, teaching kids. I'm an elected official.
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I'm on the Board of Education in Fairview, and I'm a fulltime
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college professor at the same time at Berkeley College in New
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Jersey, teaching justice and sociology.
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Life could not have been better. You have shown nightmare to
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success. I started off with great
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success. It was one wonderful event after
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the next and the chairman calls and says can you come to my
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office And I do. And he said Governor of New
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Jersey was Chris Christie. Whitman just appointed the
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Bergen County Sheriff Jack Gehoon to take over the
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Department of Corrections New Jersey.
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We are going to have a special election for that.
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And the Democrat has not won in Burn County in 25 years yet.
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You're probably not going to win.
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It would be a miracle if you won.
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But it'll be great name recognition.
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And maybe next year if you want to run for Assembly or get
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involved, it would be it would be great.
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So I thanked him. I was kind.
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I said thank you, Mayor, but have to think about this.
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Can I get back to you on on Monday?
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Was it? It was a Friday.
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I'm working day shift. I get back to my office and I
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called my dad. He was from Florida and he said
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get on a plane, come down here so we could talk.
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You can. I'm working.
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Yes, you can get on a plane. Use a credit card.
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Okay. I got on a plane and I flew to
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Florida and we have a conversation.
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Dad never would do anything on the phone.
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He was always very uncognizant of what could happen and making
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a mistake and. I do the scenario and I tell him
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that I don't want to. I don't think this is a good
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idea because of my personal life, and I don't know if you
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know this part of my narrative or the story, but literally,
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probably. As a teenager, I recognize that
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I was slightly different from other people.
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And for your audience, even though I am a priest, priest for
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10 years, a cop for 20 years, I taught College in the middle of
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that professor for 20 years. I am also a gay man.
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And to have that conversation with the Marine Corps police
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captain Dad was. And dad said that's not going to
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come out. You're going to be absolutely
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fine. Don't worry about it.
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And I always ironically believed my dad.
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So I went back, met with the mayor again.
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I said, okay, we're going to do this.
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Dad flies back from Florida and leads the campaign and so he
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really, he really wanted this for you.
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Unbelievable. Yeah.
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And he I I've seen him work hard my whole life, but never like
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this. He was out morning till night.
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Eight months on the campaign trail, we went everywhere.
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Bergen County has 71 towns. We visited every one of them
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three or four times over. And ironically, that faithful
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night, a miracle from God, happens the night before.
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I'm at St. John's Baptist Church.
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I'm kneeling. It was early in the morning.
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There was no mass. God, I really want this.
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I want to show the world that me as a gay person can do this,
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this could that I could change things and I win.
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I win. Burn County has a million
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voters. It was shocking, especially to
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my dad. And how old would you have been,
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Father Joe at that time? I was the youngest elected chair
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in the state. I was 39 years old.
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Wow. You know, it's hanging on my
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wall. It's.
15:52
And I want to vomit every time I look at it.
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God forgive me, but literally the next day, the Daily News,
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there's a new new sheriff in town.
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Everything was changing. It was completely amazing and as
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this new, very excited, very young and experienced sheriff, I
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started making radical change. Bergen County, one of the
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wealthiest counties in the country.
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Had one of the largest jails as well.
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Most of the people in Bergen County jail were either Latino
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or African American and we had 96% white males in charge of
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that jail. There were very few African
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Americans, very few Latinos, and very few women.
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So my whole my whole tenure there was to focus on minority
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issues the 1st appointment. Was an African American
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undershare, second in command. Gordon Johnson.
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Gordon Johnson remained there after I left.
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He was a New Jersey assemblyman for a number of years and he
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just got elected last year to the New Jersey Senate.
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So one of my gifts to New Jersey, that's totally your own.
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I did something that was radical.
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It's been done after, but not before.
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I called civil service and I said I have no people who speak
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Spanish in this. In this agency, I need that I
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had the first ever, and you didn't have to do a separate
17:21
test. All they did was a computer
17:23
generated list of bilingual officers.
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Had my first class of all Latinas.
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It was huge. And then the third thing I did,
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I called civil service. I just want to do the same thing
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for women. Can we do that?
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Yep. You don't need a test.
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All we have to do is you have a need for women.
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We will get women and so a full class of just female officers.
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That has never been done in the entire country.
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That's pretty radical too, at that time.
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Oh, it was great. It was radical for now.
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It's radical now, right? Exactly.
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But. Long story short, after I get
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elected and I'm making all these radical changes, I am upsetting
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the establishment. Yep.
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Oh my gosh, it got rough. But my dad, who said I will
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always be protected, everything would be great.
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Literally 90 days after I. This war to uphold that
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Constitution, Dad dies, but he got to see.
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He got to see you elected and worked.
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With great gift from God, Yep. But then the next after he left,
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it got worse. And worse and worse.
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So let's talk about, because you know, I've read all kinds of
18:38
different things and you never know what you know what you have
18:42
is, is real or or not real when you read stuff.
18:44
But you were a guy on the move and you were shaking up the
18:48
establishment. When did when did things get to
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where you've thought something was happening that could damage
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you? Probably a year in.
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OK. And I actually did.
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I was young and inexperienced. I make a a few mistakes.
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Most of them I perceive were not illegal.
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It was probably bad judgments. I did a survey of all my
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employees I500 officers, but I had 200 civilians.
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Aside from the clerical people, we had drug counselors and
19:26
doctors working for us. We ran a jail.
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We railed the county We BC I I had scientists in the lab so we
19:33
had a substantial workforce. So.
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But I did a survey of all employees, especially the
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officers. 95% of them did not have a college degree to do that
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job. Bergen County is one of the
19:47
highest paid law enforcement agencies.
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State normally today a corrections officer could make
19:53
anywhere from 125 to $150,000 and that's not including the
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best medical attention package that's available worldwide we
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substantially. And I'm not saying that you have
20:06
to have a college degree to do this job and to make a
20:09
difference in the world, but I do believe it creates certain
20:13
character or ability or understanding of what's
20:16
important. Of course, the irony is me with
20:21
my college degree and three graduate degrees.
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Yeah, I was just saying you're very well educated, but I'm the
20:27
one who took a fall. But it it it's OK.
20:31
But one of the people that works with my dad side by side was at
20:37
the time my domestic partner and or civil union and now marriage.
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We've been together 27 years. A long time he had a graduate
20:51
degree in HR and our staff was lacking, so I hired someone that
20:58
was very, very close to me. It's nepotism, but nepotism
21:01
isn't a crime. It's just sure months times,
21:04
many times a bad fall. Although you know, right next to
21:07
that new sheriff in town is the picture of John F Kennedy and
21:11
Bobby Kennedy there, my heroes, about how people that you trust
21:15
and that you love sometimes work even harder for you.
21:18
Well, and then and at that point JFK, he put his brother the as
21:24
attorney general because Joe Kennedy said you got to have
21:27
somebody you can trust and. That was I think at the time,
21:33
and I might be wrong about that. I think Robert Kennedy was only
21:35
like 32 years old at the time that he took the attorney
21:38
general spot, the youngest attorney general in the world.
21:41
And you know, for your viewers, that's the photo that's next to
21:43
my dad. I love that.
21:45
It's one that inspired me over and over again.
21:48
So I hired my partner and he's excellent and was doing radical
21:54
work. But then three months after
21:57
that, it's the first time I make the news in a radical way.
22:02
And it's not just the New York Times and the Daily News and of
22:04
course the local New Jersey news.
22:06
I would make Channel 2, Channel 4, Channel 7 in the the metro
22:10
area. So the news clip was a Bergen
22:13
County sheriff hires gay love and I'm mortified.
22:19
And of course, my husband, at the time younger than I, his
22:26
parents and grandparents did not know that he was actually gay
22:31
himself, so they all see it on. That's how they learn about it
22:36
broke my heart. So that was the beginning of the
22:39
end. And then I became a little bit
22:41
more introspective, a little bit less aggressive in trying to
22:46
make a difference and just trying to do the job.
22:48
Except that nightmare just got worse.
22:53
And worse and worse. So one of the things that they
22:57
talked about was is that the people that worked for you
23:00
making campaign contributions, can they not?
23:03
Is that something that you can't do if if someone wants to make a
23:07
campaign contribution for someone that they work for, is
23:10
is is that a subjective thing or is that actually a law That is a
23:14
statute that says that if you work in the department of that's
23:18
a great question. And for your viewers, on January
23:23
11th, 2001, just months before 911, the Twin Towers fell, I
23:31
took a plea agreement and I'm going to tell you that story if
23:34
you want to hear For one Prime and New Jersey law, statutory
23:41
law is substantial. This is the law that's called
23:45
the old 2A. It was old common law and the
23:48
law is demand of campaign contributions from government
23:53
employees, especially the police.
23:57
So yes, you can fundraise however you're not supposed to.
24:04
You of course you should never just morally pressure your own
24:09
people to attend and you know that is the crime that I I
24:14
pleaded guilty to and I never sold 1 ticket.
24:19
As the sheriff I had a huge staff.
24:21
I had a huge pain reelection staff did they apply some
24:25
pressure on some of the people Probably and and I was the boss.
24:30
I should have been more aware and I should have been more
24:32
clear but no one ever complained to me.
24:35
They would buy those tickets hoping to get promoted, hoping
24:38
to get another better assignment, hoping to get a
24:40
transfer. But that that's the crime that I
24:45
I pled guilty to. But the and I would not have
24:49
only because I didn't do it myself and nor did I think it
24:53
was overly aggressive. I think it's common practice.
24:57
Every sheriff in the world does it and it's done through every
25:01
government official does it in the world.
25:03
It is common practice but there is an old common law statue in
25:07
New Jersey. But the reason why I did that, I
25:11
pled guilty and walked away, was very real.
25:15
And it's actually the heart of the nightmare.
25:19
It's one that picks me up still 22 years later after my dad
25:25
died. Dad was the campaign treasurer.
25:28
And I was shocked, like, Oh my God, how he was 64 years old,
25:34
should not have been dead. So one of the camp, one of the
25:39
campaign leaders said, you know, one of your dad is the campaign
25:43
treasurer. He's the one who actually signed
25:44
checks. Why don't you just see if your
25:47
mom wants to do it? And that'll be an easy
25:49
transition mom, sort of sure. Whatever you need.
25:52
I'll be glad to help. And literally all she did was
25:55
have to attend a quarterly meeting.
26:00
She was not responsible to even review the books.
26:03
We literally had three accountants on staff to do that,
26:07
sign bigger checks. Otherwise the secretary that we
26:10
had for the campaign could sign checks.
26:13
So literally a week before I resign and walk away from a job.
26:20
But I can't stress this more strongly.
26:25
I loved being a cop. It was.
26:28
I loved being a priest. But there was nothing like being
26:31
a cop. And in my mind, maybe doing it
26:34
the right way, being a little bit more gentle and kind and
26:38
innovative. But in the midst of the end, two
26:44
of my very strong, loyal officers, both who weren't
26:50
really supposed to be police officers.
26:51
One was a local garbage man that I worked with impaired you, and
26:56
the other was one of my college students I was teaching at
26:58
Harlem at the university only was a bright student.
27:01
Both helped during the campaign, not overly, but they were there.
27:05
They were really doing the right thing.
27:08
And I I liked them both. They were two great kids, so
27:11
they're in my office. They come into my office to see
27:13
me on something, to review a few police related things.
27:17
They they said chair. Just so you know, we actually
27:20
had a meeting last week. We're making sure everything's
27:23
in order and we were with the accountant and it looks like
27:27
eight people gave you more money this year for their campaign
27:32
contributions they were than they were supposed to.
27:35
I said, well, how much more? Well, this one gave 500 more.
27:39
This one gave 1000 wasn't a substantial amount of money.
27:42
And they said, what do we do? I said that is called an elect
27:46
violation when we take more money than we're supposed to and
27:50
the norm is that you give it back.
27:52
But if we get caught, normally you pay a fine.
27:56
That's the least thing on my mind right now.
27:57
We got a million other things going on.
27:59
If we get caught, we pay the fine.
28:02
I don't, I don't want to worry about that.
28:04
Work it out with the account, I said, OK, they leave so
28:09
literally two days, maybe 3 days before I resign and take a plea
28:16
deal. My lawyer, who's representing me
28:21
in some of the problems that are leading up to this, calls me to
28:26
his office and I sit down, presses a button on a tape
28:31
recorder and I hear that conversation that I just relate
28:34
to all your listeners. And he said prosecutor's office
28:41
said unless you resign in 48 hours, they'll let you go, file
28:45
for your pension. They're arresting your mother,
28:47
who's the campaign treasurer, Is that could that happen?
28:52
They said they will be able to arrest her, they will handcuff
28:55
her and take her to your jail. We'll get her out in a couple of
28:59
hours, but she will be processed.
29:01
I said that can't happen. That will not happen.
29:04
What's the other option? They want you to plead guilty to
29:07
three charges. Here they are.
29:09
I cross one right off the list. I don't even recall what it is,
29:13
But I take the plea deal for demand of campaign contributions
29:17
from public employees. And then what's attached to that
29:22
is official misconduct that I allow that to happen.
29:25
As a public official, I didn't realize that that was a big
29:29
deal. It's a big deal because once you
29:33
do official misconduct as an elected official, it can never
29:37
be taken away. Everyone else can have a crime
29:40
expunged or depleted, and you never see it again.
29:44
You could be exonerated as a public official.
29:48
That, and I didn't. I was a cop for 20 years, but I
29:52
didn't realize it was a life sentence.
29:54
So that is a life sentence. And I went to Trenton.
29:59
I filed for my pension and two days later they transferred.
30:05
They transferred this to Morris County because I was the Bergen
30:09
County Sheriff. Sure, I worked in at 9:00 in the
30:12
morning. I literally did a 5 minute plea
30:15
deal and my life as I knew it ended changed.
30:20
So what is, you know, after going through all that and and
30:24
that it is so common, you're telling that story Father Joe
30:27
about? If if things don't go a certain
30:30
way they can always go and attach themselves to family
30:34
members and and it's you know, I I've got a friend of mine that
30:39
he was actually in a county jail for 10 months trying to fight
30:42
his case. And they said we're going to
30:44
give you so many hours and if you don't do your plea, then
30:49
we're going to we're going to charge your wife.
30:51
We're going to charge your son. He ended up, you know, getting a
30:55
lot more time than what he would have gotten if he would have
30:57
pled at the beginning. But that happens so often.
31:00
And I I, you know, there's so there's so much under the
31:03
underbelly of of what people don't see when they read about
31:09
things as, as you know, it comes out in the paper.
31:12
But there's so many. That's always why I want to hear
31:14
the story, because it's one of the things I think it taught me
31:18
going through what I went through is that.
31:21
You don't ever judge a book by its cover because there's so
31:23
many people that I met in prison.
31:26
There were good people that had done something in their lives
31:31
that put them where they were. But the story that they have and
31:35
how they got there is always so much more interesting than what
31:39
you read about or what you think you know.
31:42
So you enter into this new world.
31:44
You've fallen from a great peak in your life.
31:50
What's going through your mind as that happens to you?
31:56
You know, and I I hope I'm not preaching to your audience
32:01
because I know many of your listeners have gone through
32:05
their own trauma. Everybody does, yeah.
32:09
But what? You know, I truly think that it
32:12
was just my faith, my faith that started at four years old at
32:15
Sacred Heart Catholic School. That never ever diminished even
32:21
through all this. It was a blessing beyond and it
32:27
taught me so many things. First and foremost is that our
32:30
criminal justice system is failing millions and millions of
32:34
people. And I was part of that problem
32:37
for 20 years. I can't tell you how quickly I
32:40
would arrest someone and put them in jail and only and think
32:44
I'm saving the world. I got a You got a marijuana
32:47
person in jail. Oh my God, thank God that law
32:50
has changed. Because there's just the law is
32:53
supposed to be fluid and changing and and most of all
32:57
it's supposed to be geared to help society grow.
33:00
I ran a jail. We don't rehabilitate anyone.
33:04
All we do is punish people. And clearly it's not working.
33:08
We have more people incarcerated in the United States than any
33:12
other industrial country in the world and that was part of that
33:17
problem. But going back to to miracles
33:21
and how one moves from that nightmare my after and I'm I'm,
33:29
you know, I don't mind putting my I'm transparent with who I am
33:32
and what I am. But I I don't want to put my my
33:36
husband in the limelight because he doesn't belong there.
33:39
But after he makes the news that first year, he said I have to
33:46
leave. I can't.
33:47
I'm not going to be a part of this.
33:49
And resigns, goes, leaves the state actually, just to avoid
33:54
being in the limelight. We have a small condom name in
33:57
Florida. He goes there, he gets the job
33:59
and winds up getting an even better job.
34:02
He becomes the HR director for Continental Express.
34:07
He always still loves airlines and he gets a great job and
34:14
we're flying back and forth so a relationship even grew stronger.
34:17
But anyway, so six months after and which is good to hear.
34:22
Father Joe Cuz a lot of times that's not what happens.
34:25
The majority of time there's a there's a big disaster and
34:29
there's a split and that's that didn't happen to you, which is
34:34
fantastic. Each day together we grew
34:36
stronger. Although there's another
34:37
nightmare that happens that that I'll share.
34:42
Ironically when my dad dies, I had sold my house.
34:47
When I move in to help my mom, we have a special needs sister.
34:53
I have a mom has special needs daughter.
34:57
Both my husband and I now care for my beautiful sister and it's
35:01
a great tip from God. But when that happened during
35:04
nightmare as well. But anyway, I resigned.
35:09
I am sentenced at my sentencing. I actually speak up for the
35:13
first time. My lawyer lets me speak up and I
35:16
give this famous speech. This has happened to me because
35:21
I am a gay man. This would not have happened to
35:24
any other person. This is common knowledge.
35:27
You know, my last month in office, I get, I'm driving to
35:31
work at the courthouse and I would get there the crack of
35:35
dawn. I was so diligent in the work.
35:38
And there's four sheets hanging from the courthouse, Four story
35:41
parking garage sewn together, hanging there in black.
35:47
That red gay Joe must go as I pull it to the Bergen County
35:51
Courthouse. And New Jersey has one of the
35:53
toughest hate crimes law in the world.
35:57
And of course cops are coming and going all night.
35:59
Nobody takes it down. They let it greet me as I walk
36:02
in. So I order it taken down, and I
36:04
also order an attorney general investigation about that.
36:09
Nothing ever happened. But all of that's done.
36:12
I resigned on the 11th, I speak out at my sentencing about being
36:17
a gay man, and then literally, I have nothing.
36:22
Starting from scratch again, but a few short months later, and
36:25
it's so ironic that we're doing this podcast this week. 911
36:30
happened. And I know me.
36:33
I know how I worked and what I did.
36:35
There is no doubt in my mind, but I would have been notified
36:39
as I leave my house at 738 o'clock in the morning to go to
36:43
the courthouse that a plane would have hit the World Trade
36:47
Center. I know that I would have put my
36:50
lights and siren on in my mock bar and been standing next to
36:54
the command post with Chief Gancy with Father Michael Judd.
36:58
I would have been there when the second plane hit and they all
37:02
died. So it is a miracle that I
37:07
relieved myself of command and if I didn't hide that day, I
37:11
would have surely died of 9/11 related illnesses because I
37:15
would have been in that pile with my officers who were there
37:19
but all of that. So that was nightmare two that
37:23
happens as a result of that miracle, except the irony.
37:27
My husband is in charge of HR for Continental Airline Express,
37:33
so 12 days later, along with 12,000 other airline employees
37:40
are laid off. Oh well.
37:42
Both of us same time. No jobs, no health insurance, no
37:48
money. And all the money that I had
37:51
saved my entire life. I was so frugal, went to my
37:54
lawyer. So it was starting from,
37:59
ironically, Ground Zero in our own personal lives.
38:03
But but faith is gone. Faith is there.
38:06
It doesn't diminish up anything. I'm going to church more and and
38:11
just loving, loving God and saying to myself every day
38:17
something else is going to happen.
38:18
God wants you to do something more.
38:22
So knowing that, and I mean I didn't realize that that
38:25
happened to both of you at the same time, what did you reach
38:30
out? And do what?
38:31
What? How did you start taking that
38:33
step because that's that's that moment.
38:35
You I think you so correctly said Ground Zero because you
38:41
only have two choices at that point.
38:43
You've, you know, you crawl up in a fetal position and get into
38:46
a corner and give up, which people do.
38:51
Or you just grit yourself out and take a step, not knowing
38:55
because it's the unknown and. Figure it out.
39:00
What did you figure out I had when I was the sheriff 1000 Best
39:08
friends. I had more people that wanted to
39:10
be my best friend all because they wanted something to return.
39:16
Now I have about 3-1 of one of the friends that I have that was
39:22
not political or not law enforcement was a man named
39:26
Jerry Con. He owned the school bus company
39:29
in New Jersey, one of the largest private school bus
39:32
companies. And he actually came to my I
39:34
didn't invite my mother, I didn't invite any family.
39:38
My husband wasn't there. It it was neat.
39:40
This is my responsibility. So, but Jerry comes and he was a
39:45
big, strong Irish Catholic, and he looked like my bodyguard,
39:49
even though he wasn't, just escorted me out.
39:52
And I did not like so many of your listeners.
39:58
My plea deal was contingent upon not going to jail.
40:02
But I had five years probation. And as an ex cop, a former cop,
40:06
it was actually brutal. My female probation officer made
40:10
me urinate in front of her every month.
40:13
It was odd. I'd be sitting in probation,
40:16
literally, with people who would recognize me.
40:19
You arrested me. I was in your jail.
40:22
It was. Surreal.
40:25
It was horrible. But one of the one of my number
40:29
one thing I had to be gainfully employed.
40:31
Otherwise I buy like probation and I could be sent to five
40:34
years of jail. Jerry said come to work with me
40:37
at the bus company and so I said thank you.
40:40
I I can't be more thankful for that.
40:43
But I went from top top to bus hop and I went, I actually, he
40:49
made me his school bus safety director.
40:52
But I was literally. On and off school buses, making
40:55
sure the kids were safe. And they did that for whole five
40:58
years and it was wonderful and it was hard.
41:03
I'm literally freaking in a garage.
41:06
But it was such a lesson in humility and understanding real
41:09
work and also doing something that I always loved doing,
41:12
especially as a cop hoping kids, I was a death officer for all
41:16
those years. So it was great.
41:18
But right after that. And I, you know, I thanked God
41:21
every day. What else is there to do?
41:24
And I, you know, I know you, you may think I'm crazy, but
41:27
whispers like I want you to be a priest.
41:29
I want you to really tell people that I'm real, that I do
41:33
miracles, that anything could happen.
41:36
So after the five years was done, I went to Dunwoody Roman
41:42
Catholic Seminary in Nowchers, New York.
41:45
And I told my husband and he said, Joe, you can't do that.
41:49
You're gay. It's against the rules there,
41:51
remember. I said no, no, Bill Clinton,
41:54
don't ask, don't tell. It'll be okay.
41:58
I get through my first year of discernment and I am loving it.
42:03
It was a class of 12 people, God forgive me, but the most odd
42:09
group of men I've ever been exposed to.
42:12
But I'm thriving and it's going, I'm loving it.
42:15
Yeah, it's filling it up, it was.
42:19
And then one of apparently one of my.
42:22
Former subordinates from the Sheriff's Department goes to the
42:26
town for side park where my domestic partnership and civil
42:29
union is, gets those two documents and sends them to the
42:33
Archdiocese of the City of New York.
42:36
So I am asked to leave and how long had you been there?
42:40
Full year A. Full year.
42:41
That was awesome. Was my second year getting
42:44
another knocked down I? Thought that like this is not a
42:49
good thing. God, what?
42:50
What does this mean? And as I'm talking to a few of
42:54
the religious friends that I had since made there, they said
42:59
there's another seminary in New York City called Union
43:02
Theological Seminary. It is the oldest ecumenical
43:05
seminary in the country. It's where Bonhoeffer studied
43:09
and great minds. It is adjacent to Riverside
43:14
Cathedral in the city of New York.
43:17
I had not heard of it. I went.
43:19
I visited. I fell in love with it.
43:21
It is. Beautiful.
43:24
So I pull out the application, and in the application, my
43:28
narrative story, I share. I share what happens at the
43:31
Sheriff's Department. I share my gay identity.
43:33
I share what happens at the Catholic seminary.
43:37
And then I received, God bless them, a full scholarship to
43:41
Union Theological Seminary. And then I moved in and I heard
43:48
my some three years there. And it was.
43:51
The best time of my life, you know, and I think there's
43:54
something that there's something to be said for what you just
43:57
said there, Father Joe, is that you were very open and honest
44:00
about your situation and what it was, how you got there, how you,
44:07
how you were affected by, how you experienced it.
44:10
And I think that's one of the things that people who have
44:12
experienced you know, especially through the experienced criminal
44:18
justice in some way of how they tell their story, how they
44:21
relate that to others to be able for people to understand how
44:26
they got to where they are. I I think that opens up
44:29
opportunities and you know it's you know there's I guess in some
44:34
ways there's a little bit of a similarity in of the people that
44:38
I talked to you know actually coming out and saying that
44:41
you're gay is I've talked to so many people my brother's gay so
44:46
I I've I've experienced that as a as a as a brother and you know
44:52
I my parents and I couldn't be more proud of him he's he's he's
44:55
an incredible guy has done incredible things but I think
44:59
it's it's. It's it gives you kind of a new
45:04
rebirth when you do that and you you are able to relate who you
45:08
are. And I also think that people who
45:11
experience their nightmare, whether they're going have been
45:15
sentenced to prison or been convicted or whatever that is
45:18
being able to share that not hide that.
45:20
I I think it's also freeing of the mind that you're not hiding
45:24
something that they're going to use that against you.
45:27
They're going to find out if you stand out in front of it and you
45:30
and you become your it's in your own skin.
45:33
That's who you are. Then I think that you can
45:35
progress through life better because you're not feeling like
45:39
you're shaming yourself, hiding something back.
45:42
You're actually bringing yourself forward.
45:44
This is who I am. This is what I am and how it's
45:47
affected me is as a person how I want to affect things and be
45:51
impactful. So I I think that's an
45:53
interesting twist on how you went through what you went
45:58
through. You went through a year of
45:59
really loving where you were and you got knocked out, you got
46:03
knocked down again, but you didn't stop.
46:06
You found another opportunity and that was the right fit.
46:11
Yeah. First of all, thank you for
46:12
sharing the story of your brother.
46:14
I can't. I'll be more impressed with
46:16
that. I'm so impressed with you and
46:18
you're committed to doing what you're doing.
46:20
But now to add that layer is so important, you know, this idea
46:25
of shame and stigma that those of us impacted by the criminal
46:29
justice have. It's substantial.
46:32
It's real. But also I had that training.
46:35
And you know, I'm saying as a teenager, I knew at five years
46:39
old, I knew sitting in that Pew at Sacred Heart that I was
46:43
different. I mean, it didn't manifest till
46:45
years later. And just to, you know, be clear,
46:49
when I take my first civil service test in 1980, it's
46:53
question #3 on that on a state application, are you a
46:57
homosexual? And if you wrote, yes, you're
47:00
disqualified. You were not allowed to be a
47:03
cop. If you lie on a police
47:05
application, you're just you're it's a crime.
47:08
And I did lie because at the at that time, at 19 or 20 years
47:14
old, I wasn't an active gay man. I was scared to death.
47:21
And then I become a cop. And then the AIDS epidemic and
47:24
then the anti homophobia that was rampant.
47:27
That has never really dissipated.
47:29
I lived the whole life as shame stigma.
47:33
Now to be enhanced as a felon is criminal, you know.
47:37
Can I share one more story on the old Not this January, but
47:44
the January prior, a dear friend that I meet after I graduate
47:49
from seminary at Union Theological.
47:52
I go next door and spend 7 years at the Jewish Theological
47:56
Seminary. For my C P/E training to be a
47:58
chaplain and I I become friends with so many wonderful and
48:02
amazing rabbis. 1 Rabbi Liana is now the head rabbi at New
48:10
Jersey's oldest synagogue in Jersey City with dear friends.
48:14
So a month before the New Jersey governor, Bill Murphy, is to go
48:20
through his inaugural event, he gets reelected by a thin margin.
48:25
Apparently, and I don't know this first hand, I'm getting it
48:28
from sources, the Archdiocese of Newark contacts the governor's
48:33
office and says unless you relinquish or change your stance
48:38
on women's reproductive rights, you are not welcome.
48:42
Your prayer, your prayer service for the inauguration cannot be
48:48
held at the cathedral, nor will any Roman Catholic priest be
48:51
there to bless you. So the governor's office, in a
48:55
brilliant move, contacts the oldest Jewish organization in
49:00
Jersey, my friend Rabbi Leanne, who says, you know, I have a
49:05
progressive Catholic priest. If you're interested.
49:07
That I'm sure would be glad. Governor's office calls me,
49:11
interviews me, and I said I'd be delighted to pull in for the
49:15
cardinal. And I am on the top of the list
49:19
in front of every religious denomination.
49:23
Blessing the governor, Governor Phil Murphy, his wife and
49:25
children for his inauguration. And in addition to the prayer,
49:31
Ioffer my own Greek story that as a gay man and also whose
49:37
husband and I I'm being careful with, his name is now a public
49:41
school teacher. Public school teacher in one of
49:43
New Jersey's most challenged inner cities for the past 24
49:49
years. Now right after 911.
49:52
Went to teaching and I gave this whole narrative thanking the
49:55
governor for his stance on equal rights, diversity, women's
50:00
rights and I I do that. I do a really decent job and God
50:03
forgive me for the whole humility there.
50:06
But the governor and first lady said not only personal thank you
50:10
notes, hug me even though we're wearing masks, but they invite
50:15
my husband and I literally six months later to the inaugural
50:20
ball as. MetLife Stadium.
50:23
My husband gets to meet the governor.
50:25
I get invited to the governor's mansion two other times for
50:29
prayer meetings, for recognizing Holocaust remembrance.
50:33
The governor's office is calling me literally for every event
50:37
that they want my presence at the governor.
50:39
Every time he sees me, my favorite priest, Father Joe, is
50:43
here. And then I become slightly bold
50:47
and impression. My request the only way.
50:52
The only way to to eliminate the stigma that I have carried
50:56
around and millions carry around it can't be done in any other
51:02
way except a pardon. My request for pardon has been
51:07
on the governor's desk for 17 years, every governor, including
51:12
my dear friend Governor Mcgreevy, who stole my speech
51:17
about being a gay American. But.
51:20
No one has signed it. So I I sent a little e-mail to
51:23
the governor reminding him that was there.
51:26
Yeah. And since that, the governor's
51:29
office has cut me off. Hasn't called me since.
51:33
You shouldn't be laughing at this.
51:35
You're supposed to be someone with compassion.
51:37
Oh, that's just so incredible. It's just but that's how the
51:42
system works and it's sad but. People like you were changing.
51:47
Well, you're getting the things out there that change is
51:49
necessary, especially in the criminal justices.
51:53
And I think that my only frustration and I, there was
51:58
Jeff Grant had someone on last night who's making a lot of
52:01
impact. His name's Glenn Martin.
52:03
The only frustration I I find because I love doing this.
52:07
I love. I love sitting in this chair and
52:09
hearing these stories, and I get reinspired all over again.
52:14
The thing that I think, and I'm not even sure how it happens, is
52:17
there's so many people like yourself and Jeff Gran and
52:21
Harley Blakeman and I could name off so many different people
52:24
that are making big changes. It's the connection of
52:28
connecting all those voices to become a bigger voice.
52:32
And I'm not sure how that happens, but there's so many
52:35
good people that are taking their opportunity in making
52:38
their second chance work. And they're, because of their
52:40
experience, have become very impactful with, you know, their
52:45
voice around the table. And I know that there's a way
52:48
because there's 25,000,000, you know, ex felons out there in the
52:51
world and in the United States. And we, if we could in some way
52:57
connect all those dots of all those states of people that are
53:00
doing good things, I think our voice could be so much more
53:03
powerful. But you know that's there's
53:05
always a way. There's always a way.
53:09
But I love what you're doing and I think you know and and the
53:13
opportunities of people who come into your path knowing your
53:21
story, I think that is so impactful for the person looking
53:27
for help that they're not intimidated.
53:30
They're not are less intimidated, I guess I should
53:32
say, because they know your story and and you're there to
53:36
help them and I think that's that's an intangible thing that
53:40
you have in the world that you're in that can really create
53:43
a lot of change. Thank you, thank you.
53:47
But I want to give a message to end to those not only the
53:50
25,000,000 who are justice impacted, but to all people who
53:54
are struggling with anything because they're by the grace of
53:58
God though you or I. Everyone makes mistakes.
54:02
We've we've made mistakes that were very public, very powerful.
54:07
But everyone has challenges. And I I really hate to quote
54:11
this President Ronald Reagan, because anyway, but he said, and
54:17
I, I hope I'm allowed to use this word on your podcast, but
54:20
in that big pile of shit that we may be into, there's got to be a
54:26
pony in there. For me, that pony was God and
54:32
faith. I really think all of you out
54:35
there listening, going through really hard times, just believe
54:38
in something, and it doesn't have to be Jesus or God.
54:42
Just believe that there is a better tomorrow, that there is
54:45
something that you're called to do, even if it's sharing your
54:49
story to help someone else who may be going through something
54:53
similar or even something worse. You know, I was on Jeff Grant's
54:57
call on Monday. They meet every Monday,
54:59
gathering together. And I reminded everyone on
55:02
Monday on September 11th. And I I I told all those people
55:07
in that room. I know that all of you are
55:09
struggling going through this trauma yourself, but we're alive
55:13
and well and fighting those 3000 souls who perished that day, as
55:19
well as all of their families and all those who've died since.
55:24
They don't have a second chance. We do.
55:26
So those of you who can use that second chance to make a
55:30
difference, Brent, you're doing it.
55:32
I can't thank you enough for having me here.
55:35
May God bless you all. Thank you.
55:37
Thank you, Father. Joe, and I want to ask you one
55:39
last question because I ask everybody this because of what
55:44
you've been through and your story is one that should, it
55:47
should be a book. What do you think's your
55:51
greatest take away through all that you've been through to the
55:54
listeners out there? I'm having a challenge.
56:00
With that one, because I know what the greatest take away is.
56:05
My greatest take away is that the American criminal justice
56:09
system is failing. It is not making any change.
56:13
Crime is running rampant. You know, in my 20 years I would
56:17
arrest rapist and. Domestic violence people, and
56:22
most of them do not get as harsh or punishment as people who
56:26
commit white collar crimes. Most of those people don't even
56:29
go to jail. We have to find some way of
56:32
changing that. I can't help but think of Martha
56:35
Stewart of what a waste of tax dollars to send her to Danbury
56:40
prison. Let her pay an exorbitant fine.
56:43
Let her do community service. We're not doing this the right
56:46
way whatsoever. All we're doing is keeping the
56:49
correctional industry, making a lot more money and focusing on
56:53
punishing people. It's time to focus on
56:55
forgiveness, understanding and helping people survive,
56:59
especially those with mental health issues.
57:02
And I know I need to speak out more on that, and I'm not doing
57:07
it because I'm still afraid of the system.
57:09
The system punishes people who go after them, and I tried to do
57:13
that as the sheriff and I failed.
57:15
As a priest, I do it from the pulpit, but you're allowing me
57:19
to do it to a much larger audience, so thank you for that,
57:22
Father Joe. You have been an incredible
57:24
guest. If somebody wants to get a hold
57:26
of you, how would they get a hold of you?
57:30
Great. Saint Joseph missionchurch.org
57:34
St. Mission St.
57:36
Joseph missionchurch@gmail.com Or actually they could.
57:45
Call us on our our telephone. Except I don't have it
57:48
remembered so I'm pulling it out of cards.
57:51
So just give me a minute. But I can't thank you enough for
57:54
doing that. It is such a we're doing
57:57
together is a dream beyond dreams.
58:01
So hold on. I need my glasses again.
58:03
And the Alyssa's are going to love this phone number 201-7544.
58:11
God. God.
58:13
Oh God, there it is. Those that need us.
58:16
Reach out. That's our information and God
58:19
love you all. That's great, Father Joe.
58:23
And for anybody who's out there, please, if you got anything from
58:26
this today, and I know you did, because there's all kinds of
58:29
Nuggets of wisdom that Father Joe's shared, follow the show.
58:33
It's easy. Hit the bell on Spotify hit the
58:35
follow button on Apple and and and share chair the and if you
58:43
leave a review. I don't know what it is about
58:45
the algorithm but the algorithm loves it when the reviews and it
58:48
just pumps up the volume on the podcast.
58:51
If you want to get any more from me, Brent, casty.com it's with a
58:55
Ty not a DY. And oh, and check out my book
58:59
too. It's on Amazon or Barnes and
59:01
Noble. Nightmare success, as I used to
59:03
say when I was typing my emails back and forth to my family and
59:06
friends. Stay strong.
59:07
I'll do the same. Nine more success in and out.
59:09
Thank you, father Joe. Oh hey wait, is there a book
59:12
there? You just did a book.
59:14
That's our book. Happily Ever after.
59:16
On Amazon. Happily ever after.
59:19
I will put that in the show notes too.
59:20
Father Joe, I didn't know that. Thank you.
59:22
Thank. You awesome awesome.
59:24
God love you all. Night for success in and out.