Latest / WriterCon / LIVE from WriterCon: Lisa Gardner, Tosca Lee, John Wooley & Barry Friedman

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LIVE from WriterCon: Lisa Gardner, Tosca Lee, John Wooley & Barry Friedman · WriterCon

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This week on the writer KHN podcast. I realize at some point, at
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about two or three in the morning, one dark night of the soul morning,
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that there was a simple equation, and the equation was you wear them
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down or they wear you down. And that is the equation and the advice
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that I would like to pass on, you wear them down or they wear
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you down. Welcome to Writer Khan, a gathering place for writers to share
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their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt,
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best selling novelist and author of the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Renee
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Gutteridge, best selling author of over thirty novels and screenplays. Hey, they're
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writers. Welcome to Writer Khan twenty three. As you can hear, we
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are coming to you live from the grand ballroom of the Renaissance Waterford and Oklahoma
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City. I am joined today as usual by our fabulous sound engineer, Jesse
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Ulrich, who thank you, thank you, that's nice, and of course
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my wonderful co host, Renee Gutteridge. We have, as you may be
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able to tell, we have been having a fabulous time here at Ryder KHN
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with all these writers and agents and publishers, and everybody else. Renee,
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you keep in your head above water. Yes, give me a little more,
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Come on way above water. This has been so funky, Jesse.
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You have been charged with the arduous task of recording all of the sessions,
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and I think there's more than eighty. Are you staying on top of it?
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I am. I wish more speakers were talking to their microphones. But
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other than that, we're doing great. I started to wander away when I
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was doing my talk yesterday and I said, wait, no, stay on
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the microphone. Thank you. We are taking advantage of the fact that we
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have every everyone gathered together in one place, so instead of the usual interview
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guest singular, we're having an interview panel with the brightest lights, some of
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the best people in the writing world, like yesterday's keynote speaker, New York
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Times best selling author Tascale, today's keynote speaker, New York Times best selling
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author Lisa Gardner, the author of Old Fears and about fifty other books.
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The book but Old Fears is the one that will not die. John Woolley
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and stand up comic and author of a book whose title I cannot say on
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the air, but it's a wonderful book. Barry Friedman, I told you
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this would be live as you saw it. We will talk to this panel
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of experts about everything that's happening in the writing world today. After the news
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segment and a few testimonials from the people at Ryder Khan Jesse take us away.
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My name is Noah Helsey. This is my first year at writer Karn.
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My favorite two events were definitely open Mike Night and Karaoke Night, which
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we're at huge hits and had a lot of really fun positive feedback from that.
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And then I also really enjoy getting the pitch two couple agents and publishers,
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and I'm ball out of really good feedback and I'm planning to continue those
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conversations to move forward. Hi. I'm Sarlat Hoffman. I'm at thirteen and
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I've published two books. Writer Con has been a great experience for me because
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I've gone so many helpful tips and it's just been wonderful and it's gonna help
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me so much with my writing career, and I really encourage everyone to come
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with and it's just it's wonderful the people who are so nice, and I've
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gotten so much out of it that my name is Sheila KABEROI and I write
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under the pet name Atlas Fay. I've really loved all of Panels and the
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Pitch Slam obviously for writer Coom and honestly I can't wait to come back next
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year. This was such a summer camp experience, but like only full of
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things that I love and like creative writing everything, just seeing everyone again it
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is enough to make you want to come back, but definitely for the Panels.
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We have talked before about the huge influence that TikTok and its subdivision,
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book Talk is having on the book world. Well we've got another book talk
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sensation that has now become a very successful film. It's been out for a
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couple of weeks now and it's a hit. That's Red, White and Royal
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Blue, the film adaptation of a twenty nineteen novel by case I mink Quisten.
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This romantic comedy follows the bisexual son of the first five female US President
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and Prince Henry, the younger brother of the heir to the British phone throne.
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This movie happened because the book generated a huge following on book Talk,
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which is of course the literature loving corner of TikTok, where fans have shared
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their obsessions and videos tagged, in this case hashtag Red White and Royal Blue,
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which has received more than five hundred million views. They are now talking
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about turning Red White and Royal Blue into a stage musical. Jesse, could
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you please arrange for one of my books to be embraced by the book talk
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world. Sure, I'll do my best. As listeners to this podcast now,
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I'm an expert at TikTok. You know, we talked a couple of
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weeks ago on the podcast about how TikTok is now becoming a publisher, which
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is true, and it's just incredible. Going to Barnes and Noble now and
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you'll see book Talk Special, It'll have its own section or table or something.
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It's really incredible. Renee, you have boldly on this very podcast admitted
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to occasionally spending some time on TikTok. What is the appeal there for book
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readers. Well, I think it's amazing place because you can first of all,
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get quickly to what's happening in the book world, which is nice,
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and you can see what is touching other readers. I think that's really fun.
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I think it I mean I think it's a great place, a great
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thing. I'm not opposed to it. Well, no, I love it
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a lot more if they were doing my books. But congrats to this one
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and Colleen Hoover and everybody else. Okay, news story number two. We
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have also, of course talked about AI a lot in recent weeks, because
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I know people are concerned about AI generated books. Now we have AI being
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used to ban books, which is not exactly where I thought as we be
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going. I mean, when I was worrying about all the things AI can
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do, like replacing me, I didn't see this coming. But now to
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the list of what AI can do, you can add regressive academic censorship.
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In Iowa, a school district reportedly deployed AI software to identify and remove nineteen
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books from school libraries to comply with state legislation there that has prohibited titles with
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and I quote descriptions or visual depictions of a sex act end quote this book.
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I mean, you might well, let me just explain how that's been
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employed. The law has been used and has led to the hasty removal of
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such horrors as Tony Morrison's Beloved and Maya Angelous, where the caged bird sings
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books. I never expected to see on any of these maybe in kindergarten,
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but beyond that, I wouldn't expect that to happen. AI models apparently scanned
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libraries books and flagged them to administrators. Here's a quote from someone in the
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Iowa legislature. Frankly, we have more important things to do than spend a
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lot of time trying to figure out how to protect kids from books. At
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the same time, we do have a legal and ethical obligation to comply with
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the law. Okay, Renee, now that our future computer overlords are deciding
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what we can and cannot read, how do you feel about this? Well,
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all of our listeners know how I feel about this and how it makes
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me crazy. So but yeah, I mean, well we know how I
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feel about this. Right They can't see my face right now, but they
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can that's a camera. See. You use computers in your work, are
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you going to let them tell you what you can and can't read. I'm
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less mad at the AI and more mad at State of Iowa for using the
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AI instead of just doing the work themselves. Obeying the books. If you're
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going to ban them, you have to take the time and read the books.
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First, so like the Human Eyes. Yeah, all right. Third
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and final news story one that took me by surprise. I've been in the
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book world a long time, but I didn't even know this was a thing.
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But apparently there has been a huge surge in hockey romance fiction. Two
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words I never expected to put together in the same sentence, hockey and romance
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and soon to be banned by AI. It is the sexiest ice sport because
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a niche world of hockey romance novels is getting mainstream attention after the wife of
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an NHL player criticized book fans, who she said had made comments and videos
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on social media about her husband that were an I quote, predatory and exploiting
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end quote. First there was book talk, Second, romance is a big
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part book talk. And now we have the broader sports romance category and it's
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subdivision subdivision hockey romance books. Recent hits have included Anna Zabo Scoreless Game,
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a love story between two long time friends who are players on the fictional team
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the Pittsburgh Griffins. I don't know, are there any fans of hockey romance?
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Can anybody speak to this? Anybody? Oscar? Are you a big
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Hoska hockey romance person. I live in Nebraska. We do not tell.
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Well, I guess we have some hockey, but no, I can't say
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that I've really been exposed. Yeah, yeah, well, you know,
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good luck to them. I think we know what our friend and guests of
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the podcast, Amy would say about these books is are they spicy? Yeah?
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Right, so, Jesse, to you and Michelle go on romantic hockey
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dates all the time is out right? That's right, Renne. You seem
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like you'd be a huge hockey fan. Am I right about this? Yeah?
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I am. I'm a huge hockey fan. Being from Oklahoma. It's
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just huge here. We have a team. I've been there. Yes,
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I mean Arizona also has a team, should they? Though, thank you
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for alienating every Arizona listener to the podcast. Okay, yeah, no,
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all right, enough with this news. Let's get to this fabulous panel of
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writers. We've got, Jesse, queue up the music. I think many
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of you know we have a traditional first question, but since this panel of
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friends of the podcast of all answered it before, I'll just ask does anybody
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have anything they want to add to my first question, which is always if
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you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would it be? Yeah,
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I can do that, Okay. Nineteen eighty three Ron Wolf and I
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sold a book called Old Fears. It was auctioned. Franklin Watts got it,
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which is no longer around. Franklin wattson double Day had actually a bidding
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war on it ended up getting a fifteen thousand dollars advances is eighty three and
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we thought we had it made its book called Old Fears, which is still
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in print, Thank you bill. It took me nine years to sell another
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book. And I realized at some point, and probably beer was involved,
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but I realized at some point, at about two or three in the morning,
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one dark night of the soul morning, that there was a simple equation,
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and the equation was you wear them down or they wear you down.
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And that is the equation and the advice that I would like to pass on.
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You wear them down or they wear you down. Cool, All right,
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Going to toss another question. I will direct this to Lisa Gardner,
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but anybody feel free to jump in. How and perhaps more importantly, why
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did you get started writing? I mean you must have realized there were simpler
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ways to make a living, right, Yes, And my father made a
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long list of them. Your dad and mine went to the same school.
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I think, yes, I owe my career spectacularly to ignorance, big fan.
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It is often better not to know what you're about to get yourself into
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in this business. Huge reader. Decided one day when I was seventeen,
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I could write a book. Took two months, and I wrote a book
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and it was really spectacularly bad as well. Went off to college so I
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could get a real job to make my father happy, and actually found the
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thing called the writer's market and how to sell a book, and again never
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met an editor, an agent or an author. So I was like,
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cool, I'll follow the steps. I'll sell a book. I saw the
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book made enough money to buy fries with that, so my father wasn't totally
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wrong. Worked a day job for a very long time, but continued to
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write. And how many books now? I stopped counting a while ago,
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but thirty something. I'm gonna say, well, how about the rest of
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you? Anybody else got a good How I got started story? I told
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my dad I wanted to try writing a book, and he said that he
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would pay me what I would have made working at the bank that summer,
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which I was lined up to do if. I wrote my first novel that
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summer, treated it like a job and wrote it full time. And I
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didn't want to work at the bank. So I wrote my first book and
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it was very bad. A friend of mine once told me that you want
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your advance to cover the lunch. It was discussed over. I think you're
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right at first because you want to or need to, and then you continue
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writing because somebody actually cares to read you, and the motivation is that you
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have an audience and you owe them something. But the initial has to be
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because you have a desire to tell a story and you hope to God that
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somebody will care. That's good. I like that. That's actually very well
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suck. Okay, our next question, Tasca, I'll start with you.
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Can you describe a mistake that you made early in your career or I would
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add early in your style of writing, either of those. I submitted my
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book to Writer's House with the twenty three page synopsis that said don't. But
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the other thing is when I sold my first novel, I had really not
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worked on my follow up books while I was waiting. After I wrote my
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first one. It took six years to sell I could have written a lot
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of things in that amount of time, and so I wish I had plunged
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ahead and not just kind of sat around waiting, that's good, that's good,
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go ahead. I've always thought there's only two things in life you can
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control, as your weight in your wardrobe. That if you were heavy,
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you could just stop eating food, and if you wore stupid clothes you could
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stop. But everything else in life you needed help relationship, sex, marriage,
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real estate, whatever. So it seems to me the only you can
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actually control is what you write, and you spend more time writing than thinking
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about writing. Mistake I made is I kept thinking that what I had to
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say about any particular topic would be interesting to anybody, and it wasn't until
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it was interesting to somebody, and they decide when that is. It's sort
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of a performing performance art. It's very performative. It's not really as solitary
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as I would like to think it is. And Barry and I've talked about
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this a lot. Matter of fact, we've done panels on it. It's
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not interesting just because it happened to you, and that's something that everybody needs
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to know, including me, and it becomes then if you're writing, especially
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non fiction. It becomes then are you a good enough writer to make something
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interesting or as we were talking on the way down here, or something inherently
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interesting enough to make your book good, or you're famous. Those are the
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three three ways that it can break. And I will say is my biggest
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mistake was being too influenced by Raymond Chandler and HP Lovecraft together. That's what
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informed my first novel called Demon Wind, and boy it is horrible. Matter
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of fact, I had a person tell me a while back, a very
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good friend, say, you know, you ought to write your autobiography and
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call it how I became a professional writer and earned hundreds of dollars. So
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when I decided I actually wanted to start earning possibly money while being a writer,
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yeah, I was getting you know, I wanted to go from hundreds
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to maybe several hundreds. It was a high. And I decided to get
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my first agent and she advised me to go out because it was very timely
18:04
and write a really great dark thriller with you know, a burnt out former
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marine and he was going to help save this woman's life and you know,
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dark, dark, dark redemption ARC worked on this felt so good at myself
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turned it in, and her first words to me that man should have killed
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himself a long time ago. Certainly by chapter one I was expecting it.
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So I learned a lot about revision work and that you can't over commit to
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a premise. Yeah, okay, So Lisa, we'll start with you.
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What's your process for starting a book? Generally procrastinating on the computer. See,
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ignorance will only take you so far, and then procrastination becomes your friend.
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Inevitably, there's something I read, and because I'm a thriller writer,
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often it's crime. Often it's odd crime. Often it's those moments when you're
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like, who the hell would do that? And then well I have to
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know who the hell would do that, and so the ideas get off and
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running. My favorite part is research, so I try to find professionals who
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can't explain who the hell would do that, and the writing process begins.
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Well, first of all, I would say that ideas are overrated and executions
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underrated, because any of us in here could sit down and come up in
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one day with a list of book ideas that would probably last us the rest
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of our lives. Execution is what matters, and so it's not so much
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the idea. I've got a backlog of ideas. Probably you do too,
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We've all got a backlog of ideas. It's actually the execution that I've found
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is the most important thing. How many of you no show your hands,
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been to a party? Find out you're a writer? Which is always fairly
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easy, isn't it what you do? Well, I'm a writer and they
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say, you know, I've got a great story. I'll tell you that
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story and we'll just split the money you write it, We'll split the money.
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Well overwriteed. How I start is the question. I also procrastinate.
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I procrastinate by doing anything but writing, and I let really good at cleaning
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out drawers and closets, and then I eventually kick it into gear. Usually
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the deadline. I start panicking. And also I reached a point of self
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loathing where if I don't start, I will feel bad, and I will
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feel bad about the way that my husband and family are looking at me so
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and I'm bothering them by cleaning so much. So that's how I start.
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Yeah, I think two things. One is you kind of forget I forget
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the process of it, because that does tend to slow me down. And
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that does tend to make me procrastinate. My daughter one time called me and
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said, you never write anything just to write, And said, no,
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who does that? And she says, everything you write has somewhere to go,
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which is a great motivator when you have somewhere to put it. But
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the other thing that hit me was, and I don't know why I keep
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thinking about this, I have no idea if this is true, but I
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heard somewhere that Bob Dylan wrote mister Tamboreen Man in thirty five minutes. I
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also heard it somewhere that Leonard Cohne took five years to write Hallelujah. That's
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because he hit adding more versus right. And I thought, all right,
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well, if you decide I'm going to write three four hours a day,
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that's a perfectly fine way to approach your craft. On the other hand,
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if you write mister Tamboreen Man in thirty five minutes on a Monday, to
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me, you can take the rest of the week off. So look at
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your output to see what kind of process you need. You may not need
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to write every day. That may be a great start for most people,
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but some people really if the light from God hits you, but it only
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hits you for a few minutes. That's when you're right. And if God
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misses you, he misses you. Okay. I think that's interesting though,
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because the other analogy you often hear for writing is that it's like going to
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the gym, and when you take a big break off, it's hard to
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get back to it. Whereas if you start forcing yourself okay today, I'm
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going to do it tomorrow a little bit more, it just becomes habit.
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It becomes a form of abuse. You've become adjusted to it. You expect
22:34
to hurt a little every day, and you don't question it as much.
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So you're right, And I actually want to be that kind of writer.
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I mean I really do. But somehow it just seems to me that writing
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when there's something that has to be written or again, you look at output.
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You've written thirty some odd books, so nobody has to no one can
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question your process. I knew somebody, and John knows her two who in
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twelve years wrote eighty pages. Clearly that process is not working. But if
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you look at your what you put out, whether it's published or not,
23:08
if there's material, I don't think you have to worry about the process.
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You've got the process down instinctually. But I agree with you. I think
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I would like to be the kind of writer sits down every day. That
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old great Hemmingway story about said standing at the podium and he starts with the
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and after four hours this one morning he just wrote the hell with it again.
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That's a good way to start, if again, you're not writing anything.
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Okay, here's a question. I've heard a lot of people asking in
23:37
one form or another this weekend. So you write a book after you're done
23:44
procrastinating, and then you revise it, and then you advise it, and
23:48
then you revise it, probably ten more times, and as always possible that
23:52
you could revise it again. How do you know when it's done? Tasca
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got some thoughts. I think it's hard to know, because you know,
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no book is ever even when it's published, any book, any piece of
24:06
writing, it's just a snapshot in time. It could totally change, it
24:08
could it could always be improved. But at some point you just have to
24:12
say, all right, that's it. We're going to take the shutters,
24:15
going to click. This is the snapshot as it is today, and today
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this is the best I can make it and the best I can make.
24:22
It means that I've usually enlisted the help of an editor friend every book I
24:26
turn in. Before I even turn it in, I have an editor friend
24:29
go through and read, and that is the best I can do today.
24:34
But the best I can do tomorrow might be different. And that's why I
24:38
always do enlist the help of experts who can who can see the mess that
24:44
I've I've made I've been writing, So I worked as a business consultant to
24:48
pay the bills the ten years I was already published. But you know for
24:53
the hundred of dollars, and we used to have an expression, are you
24:57
actually making it better? Are you just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic?
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So that's what I always start to ask it myself. Is this actually
25:06
proving it? Or am I just playing with deck chairs? And then because
25:08
I can never decay the answer, I rewrite it again. And I would
25:12
also say that, you know, the fourth draft is always better than the
25:17
first, but the eleventh isn't always better than the seventh. Yeah, and
25:21
so yeah, there is that point. Aren't good friend who edits me when
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I used to write geology and or anything about rocks? But he with my
25:27
geology editor. He said, the best thing about deadlines is vern best thing
25:32
about deadlines is you may not be done, but it's done. Yeah.
25:37
So there are times and again you say, okay, Monday, I'm done,
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and then you send it to an editor and he or she says,
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could you would you revise all this? And you go sure. So you're
25:48
really not done until somebody publishes it. And even then, as you say,
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you look at it and go, oh my god, oh my god.
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Yeah. I was an entertainment writer. It's also war for twenty three
26:00
years in the last great days of the newspaper business, and I learned I
26:04
often had a deadliner to a day and you had no time. As a
26:08
newspaper writer. You had no time. You polished it like a diamond,
26:11
the best you could do, and took it out the door because there's something
26:17
coming up behind it. Okay, John, we'll start with you. We're
26:22
talking marketing. Now. How much do you do? What do you definitely
26:26
do, and what do you definitely not do. You see my friend's bill
26:30
and very very such a you're a your cousin, you're his cousin, right,
26:36
yeah, uh, laughing at me because yes, chuckling evilly. I'm
26:44
at it. I'm funderstand. John has said more than once, what's an
26:49
appy? I am the world's biggest lud eyed. However, I am doing
26:56
well enough with those hundreds of dollars to hire a couple of people who do
27:00
online stuff for me. And so I have a website, I have a
27:03
newsletter. I have all of these things. A thing I had to get
27:07
really really used to. And Barry and I've talked about this a long time.
27:10
You'll probably know this is you have now you have to give away your
27:14
words. You have to write online for free. And as my people tell
27:19
me, if I can be so whatever fatuous, my people tell me,
27:26
you have to give them something they like, and if they like you,
27:29
then they will support you by buying your books. So I'm writing all of
27:33
this free stuff. And I hell I wrote fanzines when I was a comic
27:37
book collector in the sixties. It feels like going back to that. But
27:41
you have to do that now. And that's the thing I had to get
27:44
used to. You have to give people stuff for free, and I just
27:48
hate it. I enjoy the marketing, I really do, probably because it's
27:56
a good procrastination that part. You know, one of the best things that
28:03
happened is we got this big dog who's more popular on my social media than
28:07
I am. But people tune in to see what the dog is doing a
28:11
lot. So if you're really stumped, get a cute animal and try that.
28:15
But you know, beyond that, people just want to connect and that's
28:18
really all it's about. And they want to connect with you in your writing.
28:22
They want to connect with you and your stories, and they want to
28:25
feel seen and known. And so when they feel like you connect with them
28:29
wherever on social media, book talk, whatever it is, they will always
28:33
want more. So, yeah, they do want you. They want to
28:40
get a piece of you. And I don't have people the way John does.
28:45
I need people. Yeah, people o the world. That's a good
28:52
idea for some. I think you have to get over whatever problem you have
29:02
with self promotion. It's just part of the game though, that you write
29:07
something and it's not anybody else's job to get it out to people. It's
29:11
your job, and social media makes that somewhat easier to do. And when
29:17
you get people who respond to you. I don't know how you feel,
29:18
Tosic, but I think at some point engaging in with people who are already
29:26
attracted to you as a very good way to market yourself is not to shut
29:30
them out, is to put put up a wall between you and your readers.
29:34
Not until you can. I mean, you know, Philip Roth didn't
29:38
have to talk to people, and Joseph Heller didn't have to talk to people,
29:41
and Joe didn't even have to talk to people. Well, until we
29:44
get to that point, I think you have to engage again with your readers
29:48
because it is a performance between you and them. I'm a stand up comedian
29:52
and one of the mistakes that comedians make is that it's not a monologue,
29:56
although it seems like one of It is a dialogue between you and the audience.
29:59
And when the audience give you back something as a stand up comic,
30:02
that's the direction you go because you're in the room with them. It's not
30:04
just you, and so when you're right, it's not just you either.
30:08
Well, I'm going to have to agree with John on this one. I
30:11
was kind of really hoping this internet thing would go away. Yeah, it's
30:18
like, I don't want to talk to the people in my house. Why
30:19
do I want to talk to people in that house? And that house over
30:22
there and that house over there. It makes no sense to me. So
30:26
I'm with Tasca on this one. I have dogs. I informed them every
30:30
day, earn your kibble, Come on, sit, look cute or do
30:34
something stupid. Don't care which. I'm getting a third dog on Wednesday because
30:38
I think the first two are getting a little tired of all the photoshops.
30:44
And I'm sure we'll all live happily ever after and they won't earn much kibble.
30:49
Both of you use dogs and your social media. Well I tried using
30:53
a child, but they really don't perform for kibble. Just so you know,
31:00
Just for the record, my cat shows up at least once a week,
31:03
so it works for felines as well. All right, panel of experts,
31:10
do you have any parting words of advice for all the writers and aspiring
31:15
writers listening to this podcast? Taska, you got some thoughts. I look
31:22
over and everybody's looking at me. It's okay, yeah, you know.
31:30
My advice is, and I spoke about this earlier, is to always know
31:33
your why. I always know why you're doing this, because there are days
31:37
that it will be terribly hard, and there are days that it'll be terribly
31:41
discouraging, and you may not want to do it anymore, or you might
31:45
think why am I doing this? And I think as long as you know
31:48
your why, why not letter why, that will get you through. You
31:53
know what. I was in Tasca's panel when she was doing this or her
31:56
presentation. It was excellent. It was very motivated speech on what makes us
32:00
writers and how to find creativity. I just had this moment when You're like,
32:05
what is your why? And I'm like, why do I breathe?
32:08
And I think, once you accept this about yourself, you're going to do
32:12
this not for the money because there's none, not because it makes any sense,
32:16
because it doesn't. Not to make our parents proud. Let's face it,
32:20
We're going to do it because we breathe. Then you just accept what
32:23
happens next and enjoy your time writing. I want to butcher my favorite rider
32:29
Steinbeck here, but John Steinbeck said the writer should labor under the illusion that
32:34
what he or she is doing is the most important thing in the world,
32:39
even when they know better. And again I go back to you either wear
32:45
them down or they wear you down. I like them all right, One
32:49
last question for each of you. Tell us what you're working on next or
32:54
now tell us what's coming out next? And Lisa what you get. I
33:00
completed the revision work because I rewrite a lot deck chairs on the Titanic again,
33:06
the latest in a series for Frankie Elkin. It's still See You Everywhere,
33:09
and it was based upon a very interesting ten days I had on a
33:13
remote atoll in the middle of the Pacific and then the plane that could not
33:15
come pick us up, which was also the plane that had the food.
33:22
I just finished the first cut of a public television documentary on the horror movies
33:28
made in Tulsa beginning of the nineteen eighties, which started the direct video horror
33:32
movie craze with Blood Cult and it's going to be televised and also going to
33:38
be we have some interest in it from distributors as well. It's called Tulsa
33:43
Terrors. I wrote it and co produced it. Nice the book bill couldn't
33:47
mention a mind Jack will one. Volume two of that is coming out probably
33:55
in January February, and it's going to be called Wait for the Movie.
34:00
It's and color Nice. I'm writing a medieval thriller about the European witch hunts.
34:07
It's light to reading sounds fun. Thank all four of you so much
34:15
for being part of this podcast. All right, they liked it too.
34:22
Just a few parting words. If you haven't joined the rider KHN Facebook group
34:28
yet, please do so. Subscribe to the completely Free Writer KHN e newsletter
34:34
and the information for the links and whatnot will be in the show notes.
34:39
If you're enjoying this podcast, please subscribe and then rate or review it wherever
34:45
it is you get your podcasts. It really does make it easier for other
34:50
people to find this podcast, all right, you know what I'm gonna say
34:53
next. Until next time, keep writing and remember you can not fail if
35:00
you're refused to quit. And that's the final word for this podcast. Coming
35:05
to you live from Ryder Con twenty twenty three.