Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Do You Know That's Wrong?

Transcript

Do You Know That's Wrong? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast. Recently, about a
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: month ago, just over that, Victoria's Attorney General, a woman
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: by the name of Sonia Kilkenny, was in Victoria's Parliament
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: House launching a campaign about coercive control because, unfortunately, these
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: issues still come up. And she put her notes down
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: midway through her speech and spoke quite personally about something
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: that wasn't in the notes, about.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Her own family.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Kilkenny's 16-year-old son had come home and told her what some.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Of his mates were doing to their girlfriends.
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  Speaker 1: I'm talking about things like location tracking, checking their phones
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: to see who they were speaking to, and constantly checking in.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Where are you?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Who are you with?
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  Speaker 2: What are you doing?
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  Speaker 1: She asked her son three questions because they tie in
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: with this issue of coercive control. I think they're really
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: worth interrogating and spending some time on. going to tell
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: you about that next so that you can have better
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: conversations with your kids about this very tricky topic. Stay
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: with us. Hello, welcome to the Happy Families podcast, where
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  Speaker 1: you get real parenting solutions every single day. We're Justin
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: and Kylie Coulson, the parents of six daughters. And today,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: a conversation about talking to kids on tough topics like
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: coercive control.
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  Speaker 2: This blows my mind.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: A little bit. When I hear conversations like this, I
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  Speaker 2: just feel grateful that I live in a bubble, I think,
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  Speaker 2: but devastated that so many girls specifically are dealing with this.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: At like 12 and 13 and 15 and 16.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It's so funny though, because when I look at that,
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: checking in to see what they're up to, who they're
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  Speaker 1: talking to, what they're doing, where they are, I also
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: feel a little bit guilty because I check in on you.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: A lot, but Yeah, but not in a coercive way.
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  Speaker 1: No, but not in the ick way. It's just like, hey,
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  Speaker 1: what are you doing today? Or where are you off to?
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  Speaker 1: Who were you talking to all that time?
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  Speaker 2: That was a really- Like we share our location because
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  Speaker 2: you're not here a lot.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's so nice to look on the map and just go, okay,
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  Speaker 2: that's where you are.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, Justin's in Perth today. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So I just want to emphasize all of the things
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  Speaker 1: that we're talking about can be done in a spirit
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: of mutuality and can be done consensually and can be
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: done in a loving way. But unfortunately, too much of
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  Speaker 1: this is not happening in a positive environment, not happening
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: in a positive relationship. So here's the deal. Sonia Kilkenny
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: is chatting with her son. He's 16. And he talks
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: about how the kids are location tracking and checking the
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: girlfriend's phone to see who they're talking to. And she
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  Speaker 1: asks him three questions. She talks about this in the
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: press conference.
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  Speaker 2: What are the three questions? Really simple.
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  Speaker 1: Do you know that's wrong? Do you know that's a
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  Speaker 1: red flag? What do the girls think?
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  Speaker 2: Just that.
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  Speaker 1: And it's so interesting because of all the commentary that
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  Speaker 1: I've read over the last two months or thereabouts with
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: all these awful stories that have been in the news
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: again and again and again about the appallingly bad behavior
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  Speaker 1: of too many of our young men. I think these
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  Speaker 1: three questions might be the most useful thing in anything
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: that I've read. Like our news feeds are literally full
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  Speaker 1: of hideous stories where girls being hurt or died because
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  Speaker 1: boys and men can't answer those three questions. Do you
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  Speaker 1: know that's wrong? I don't even want to talk about
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: this on the podcast. So only one quick mention, this
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: choking story. Do you know that's wrong? Do you know
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  Speaker 1: that's a red flag? What does the girl think about this?
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  Speaker 2: Just those three questions.
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  Speaker 1: I just can't imagine that anyone's lining up and saying, oh,
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  Speaker 1: put your hands around my throat.
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  Speaker 2: So simple.
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  Speaker 1: And yet I wonder how many parents are asking those
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: questions of their kids, having those conversations with them.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's really important that we're having those conversations
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  Speaker 2: with our girls though, just as much.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, totally.
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  Speaker 2: Because- So much of what is happening is just accepted
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  Speaker 2: because it's actually not a minority. This is actually the norm.
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  Speaker 1: So I said this in a presentation recently, and somebody
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  Speaker 1: approached me afterwards and was furious that I said it.
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  Speaker 1: They argued that I was asking girls to police boys' behavior,
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  Speaker 1: that it's up to boys to do it. And that
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  Speaker 1: person's right. It is up to boys to do it.
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  Speaker 1: But hello. Hello.
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  Speaker 2: Each of us have an individual responsibility to keep ourselves safe.
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  Speaker 1: We don't live in a perfect world where every boy
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  Speaker 1: is going to do the right thing. So I want
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  Speaker 1: to teach my daughters how they can listen to that
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  Speaker 1: little voice inside and then use their big voice and
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  Speaker 1: make a noise if something is not right, if something
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  Speaker 1: is a red flag, if she doesn't agree with it.
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  Speaker 1: I just think the world is so far from perfect
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  Speaker 1: and therefore we need to help our daughters to have
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  Speaker 1: these conversations. The primary responsibility is with the male. if
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: that's what he's doing and he thinks that's okay. But
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  Speaker 1: girls need to be able to call it out as well.
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  Speaker 1: And we've had great conversations with our kids where they
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: have called stuff out and you're like, yeah, well done.
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  Speaker 1: You needed to do that. That was the right thing
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  Speaker 1: to do.
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  Speaker 2: I think that this is a conversation though that starts
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  Speaker 2: like from a really, really early age. It's not once
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  Speaker 2: they're in it. Helping our kids to actually listen to
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  Speaker 2: that internal voice, whether it be, you know, like, I
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: don't want to sit on granddad's leg. Do you know
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  Speaker 2: what I mean? Like, or I don't want to kiss grandma.
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  Speaker 2: She's got prickly chin or whatever it is. I just,
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  Speaker 2: I think it's really important that we honor our kids, those,
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  Speaker 2: those feelings, because if we don't, we teach them to
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  Speaker 2: kind of just ignore them.
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Kylie, you're right. This starts at the youngest ages and
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: this is about consent. Like the kids are on the
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: trampoline and they're bouncing. And one of the kids says,
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  Speaker 1: I need you to stop. It's scaring me. So does
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  Speaker 1: the other sibling know how to stop because it's scaring someone?
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  Speaker 2: I remember watching a movie with the kids when they
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: were younger. And it was a movie that I'd loved
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: as a kid. And one of the younger children, one
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: of our youngest children, was like, oh, this is really,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: really scary. And I went to say to her, oh,
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  Speaker 2: come on, it's okay. It's just a movie. And then
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  Speaker 2: it dawned on me. It was like, no, that internal
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  Speaker 2: voice is telling her this doesn't feel good. And I
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: actually need to honor that. I need to give her
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to recognize that. when her body says, I
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: don't like this, that that's a sign to listen to. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Really love that. That happened again fairly recently. One of
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: our kids, our youngest, Emily, was watching Pirates of the Caribbean.
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  Speaker 1: She loved it. She wanted to watch number two.
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  Speaker 2: We're like, yeah, okay.
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  Speaker 1: And then shortly after it started, she was like, I
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: don't feel good about this one. This one doesn't, the
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  Speaker 1: other one made me laugh. I really liked it. But
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  Speaker 1: this one doesn't have the same feeling. And we were like, great,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: let's turn it off. You don't have to watch it
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  Speaker 1: if you don't want to. And then it As the
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: kids grow it, it turns into things like I didn't
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  Speaker 1: get invited to the party or my friend wanted to
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  Speaker 1: go to the park but I wanted to go to
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  Speaker 1: the beach or the shops. So figuring out how to
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  Speaker 1: negotiate that in such a way that we're willing to
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  Speaker 1: hear what other people are saying. And consent is this
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  Speaker 1: thing where– and I teach this in my seminars. If
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  Speaker 1: you get a circle and you say, here's what I want,
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  Speaker 1: you get another circle and it's, here's what the person
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  Speaker 1: I'm with wants. The bit where they overlap, like a
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  Speaker 1: Venn diagram, that's the bit where we both want the
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: same thing. And that's the stuff that you do.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So we've started this conversation about girls and boys' relationships, right?
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  Speaker 2: And the idea that we might hold hands, and that
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  Speaker 2: feels really good to both of us. But then one
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  Speaker 2: of us wants to go further, and the other person doesn't.
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  Speaker 2: It's being able to voice that, whether you're a boy
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  Speaker 2: or a girl. Yep.
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  Speaker 1: And if you're being the one who's rejected, and typically
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  Speaker 1: that will be the guy, not always, but typically, then
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  Speaker 1: being able to respond to that rejection with grace is
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  Speaker 1: is the critical thing. And that's what we've got to
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  Speaker 1: talk about. Now, after the break, there's a whole lot
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: more about where this comes from, why boys are doing
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: this and what we can do. Stay with us. That's next.
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  Speaker 2: We're back.
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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: So where do you think this behavior is actually coming from?
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  Speaker 2: Can I say the internet? Do you think it's just internet?
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  Speaker 2: Do you think that they're- No, it's from bigger kids.
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  Speaker 1: It's from modeling.
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  Speaker 2: I was about to say, I feel like kids are
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  Speaker 2: watching this play out in different scenarios.
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  Speaker 1: I'm stumbling over my words because there's like four or
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  Speaker 1: five different things going through my head at once. There's
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: a line that I've been using a lot in relation
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: to my new book about boys building strong England from
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: the inside out, where I highlight that too many of
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  Speaker 1: our boys are trying to be the man rather than
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  Speaker 1: a man. there are so many young men who think
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: this is who they're supposed to be. And I'm using
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  Speaker 1: the word supposed to be in inverted commas, right? They
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: act jealous and they pass it off as caring or
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: their possessiveness is some sort of sign of devotion, right?
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  Speaker 2: They're not controlling.
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  Speaker 1: They're just crazy about the other person. And so when
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: you think about it, when you flip those things around
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  Speaker 1: and frame them that way, it actually makes it sound,
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  Speaker 1: I think they think they're being a good boyfriend, but
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  Speaker 1: they're not. They're being overtly, excessively, coercively controlling. And when
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: you look at what social media feeds, when you look
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  Speaker 1: at the ugly parts of the manosphere, what their peers
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  Speaker 1: are telling them, that's, it's not the only script, but
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  Speaker 1: it is a popular script and it's gaining in popularity
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  Speaker 1: because of some of the ugly things that are online. And,
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  Speaker 1: and I will also say this, Parents are generally oblivious.
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  Speaker 1: Parents are generally clueless or they shrug their shoulders and go,
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  Speaker 1: you know, that's fine. That's what I was like when
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: I was a kid. This is just growing up. Everyone
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: has different morality and standards around that. And we've been
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: talking about that internally in our home a little bit lately.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: There was one study that I saw recently that showed
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: that about 3% of parents are aware of some of
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: the ugly stuff that's on the manosphere. So for example,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: what's his name? There's a white nationalist in the US.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: His name's Nick Fuentes. He wrote this. He wrote, your
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  Speaker 1: body my choice forever.
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to vomit.
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  Speaker 1: It's horrendous it's horrendous But here's the thing. He got
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  Speaker 1: more than 90 million views on that, and the line
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  Speaker 1: was being used in schools within days, being chanted at
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  Speaker 1: girls by the boys, right? So you've got these ugly, ugly,
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  Speaker 1: horrendous things being said online, and then the boys say
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  Speaker 1: it because they get status from it. They feel like
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  Speaker 1: they're the man. There's nothing manly about it, but they
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  Speaker 1: feel like they're the man. You've got all the Andrew
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Tate stuff. We don't need to go into that.
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  Speaker 2: He's just horrendous.
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  Speaker 1: You've got Australian teachers reporting that students as young as
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: six refuse instructions from female staff, but then they will
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  Speaker 1: follow identical instructions from male staff. I had one teacher
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  Speaker 1: tell me.
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  Speaker 2: Boys and girls? No, boys.
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  Speaker 1: I had one primary school teacher tell me that a
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: six-year-old boy told her to stop telling him what to
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: do and go and make her a sandwich. These might
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: sound like they're exceptional cases, and I think that I
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: think that in the main they are, but they still
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: happen a lot. And if that happened, like if I
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: was a, if I was a female teacher and a
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  Speaker 1: six or a seven year old boy said that to me,
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  Speaker 1: I'd just like, I'd want to strangle him. But I'd
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: also be like this poor kid, this kid, where, where
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: is he getting this from?
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  Speaker 2: And how do we change this? Recently I was having
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: a conversation with one of our girls and she'd been
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: in a situation where a young man tried to kiss
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: her and she just knew that she didn't want to
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  Speaker 2: go there right then. And she kind of just, she
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: put her head down and shied away. And this beautiful
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: young man took a step back and he said, I
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  Speaker 2: get the feeling that you don't want to kiss me.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: And she said, no, it's not that. It's just, I
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: just want to take this nice and slow. And as
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: she was sharing this, she said, mom, I have done
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: that move so many times. And she said, every single
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: time I have, shied away the young man has kind
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: of forcibly taken my face into his hands basically and
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: and kissed me and it's such a like almost small
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  Speaker 2: act right it's like this moment where this boy's being
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  Speaker 2: bold he thinks he's being bold he wants to show
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: this girl who's a little bit shy and not sure
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  Speaker 2: if she wants to go there that he really likes
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: her but he's taken away her choice and To have
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  Speaker 2: that experience, she said to me, I never realized, and
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: this was really powerful, I never realized I had a choice.
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  Speaker 2: In that moment, I get to decide whether or not
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go through with that.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: And so what happened? You didn't finish?
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: He didn't kiss her. And they were able to have
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: a really beautiful conversation. And he honored that.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: He accepted the rejection with some grace.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: That's right. And they've continued speaking and enjoying a friendship together.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: So we need to wrap this conversation up. I really
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: wanted to highlight Sonia Kilkenny's comments because those three questions matter, right?
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Do you know that's wrong? Do young men know that
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: if they.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Go to kiss a girl and- She shies away. That's it.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: That's the end of it.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Stop. If she's- If she's the one kissing you, then
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: kiss her back.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: But if you're the one doing the kissing, this has
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: got to be a mutual thing. Do you know that
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: it's a red flag? What do the girls think about this?
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  Speaker 1: I go back to what I wrote in Boys. Healthy
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: males help the people around them feel safer and stronger.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: And if you want to help your kids to get
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: this right, ask them this tonight or this afternoon. When
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: did you see a boy or a man help someone
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: feel safer and stronger today? And then listen really closely
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: to the answer and respond with, how did it feel
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: to watch that happen? And then reverse it. when did
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: you see a boy or a man leave someone feeling
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: smaller or weaker today and have that feel and then
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: wrap it up with what kind of man do you
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: want to be the first one on the second one?
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Or if it's your daughter, what kind of boy or
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: man do you want to spend time with the first
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: one on the second one? To me, that's the conversation,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: have that conversation regularly. And that's when you see it.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: I think we need to start calling out red flags.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: We've got to be open about pornography because my goodness,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: the scripts that are there are horrendous. And, really, we
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: just want to keep the conversation going, right? Like, I
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: think if we go back to Sonia Kinney's story, she's
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: got a 16-year-old son, this attorney general. She's got a
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: 16-year-old son. She's talking to him about this coercive control
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: stuff that she's working on. And he discloses. He wants
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: his mom to know. This is what the boys are doing.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: To me, that's what everything else depends on. Kids staying
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: in a conversation with us because that's where they get
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: our guidance. And the kids that don't have a conversation
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: with us get someone else's.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I love the conversation we had around the dinner table
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: when we celebrated Father's Day and each of our girls
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: acknowledged that the thing that they loved about you the
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: most as their dad was the way you loved me
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: and the way you left me feeling. And the legacy
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: and example that you've set for them enables them to
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: go looking for the kind of man that leaves them
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: feeling safer and stronger, that literally has them feeling encapsulated
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: in unconditional love and a sense of safety on every level.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roulon from
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media with additional support from Mim Hammonds. For more
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: info about making your family happier, visit happyfamilies.com.au. And if
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: you reckon a talk like this would go well for
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the parents at your school, contact my office. I'd love
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: to come and give a talk wherever you are.