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ESPN's Nick Wagoner on 49ers Players With Rising Stock, QB Tiers, Deebo & CMC, and much more · Guy Football Focus with Guy Haberman

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's up, guys?
• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome.
• 0:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Today on the show, ESPN's Nick Wagner, and his 11th year covering the 49ers, and he is our first guest of August on Guy's Football Focus.
• 0:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, Guy Football Focus.
• 0:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I haven't decided yet which it is.
• 0:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So tell me down in the comments or send me an email guide, hey Guy.co.
• 0:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's better?
• 0:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Guy's Football Focus, or Guy Football Focus for the name of the show.
• 0:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, if you're new, guy football focus goes back several years, GFF, grading like I'm PFF, so I know one's grammatically correct.
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm partial to guy football focus, I've had many people tell me guys football focuses better, maybe they're both too cheesy, but tell me down in the comments what you think and your vote will count.
• 0:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nick Wagner is coming into his 11th year covering the 49ers for ESPN.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: That means he has covered all of Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch.
• 0:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: They're coming into their 10th years and he has great perspective.
• 1:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: He has good sources around the league and within the organization.
• 1:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I want to start by talking to him
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: About what's already been a crazy week and a half.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get into Brock Perty.
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get into players stock that is up.
• 1:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's got several players stock that's up.
• 1:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some rookies, why they can be so good in the red zone this year.
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the concerns much more.
• 1:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So let's get into it with Nick Wagner.
• 1:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is a week and a half with Kyle around, but not totally coaching?
• 1:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: What has that been like from your perspective?
• 1:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's been weird, and I even, I can cop to this.
• 1:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so used to like addressing questions to Kyle that when John Lynch came in and talked to us on Saturday, was that Saturday, whatever day that was about Rickie Pierce saw.
• 1:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I started a question with Kyle, and then I caught myself as like, sorry, I'm so used to saying, Kyle, that I messed that up.
• 1:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: is weird for us, but I can imagine it's even weirder for players and the progression has been about what they told us it was going to be, you know, you've seen him here over the last week become kind of slowly more involved, you know, even the other day he was breaking down the huddle, he to the John Lynch told us that he ran his first team meeting or spoke to the team,
• 2:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: in full for the first time in this camp, and you just see kind of the little steps that he's taking, even the one day when the offense struggled mightily in practice, by the end of that day, Kyle Shanahan was behind the offense, like he was back in the bat field kind of in his usual spot.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't calling the plays, but he was giving real time feedback, which to that point he hadn't done.
• 2:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I do think this, and you know, a lot of the guys on the team talked about it.
• 2:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: To handle something strange like this, they handle strange things a lot around here it seems like, but just with the amount of kind of proven veterans proven veteran coaches, I don't know that they've had a ton of issues from a, you know, install aspect and just kind of team building and culture and all those types of things, but I guess time will tell you know we'll see I think they're done with the install portion.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I think they just finished that the other day.
• 3:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now you'll kind of see more mixing it up during practice.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: You just did terms of what they're calling, trying to actually go against the defense rather than we're just putting plays in.
• 3:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that will reveal something different than what we've seen so far.
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: But definitely strange, definitely different.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But certainly seems like we're headed to some kind of a resolution here, relatively soon.
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: When that means he's taking press conferences and all that, I don't know.
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it seems like it's trending in the right direction for him to be back sooner than later.
• 3:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the scary thing, right, with concussions is that it can, it's not like healing a bone, it's fixed, and now it's done, and you can just run on it.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're always a little afraid, I think, of a concussion becoming something happening, and it loud noise, bright light, whatever, so hopefully that doesn't happen with them.
• 4:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what you just said about install,
• 4:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully you're getting past it will help the offense because it has felt, I don't know what word you would use, the first one that comes to mind is sloppy or disjointed.
• 4:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's reasons for it.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they don't have the same skill group out there back to back days, it feels like.
• 4:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it has not been great.
• 4:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think is one way to put it is that fair.
• 4:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've seen a lot of training camp practices.
• 4:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to overreact anything, especially with this team where you know where their floor is.
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really high on offense.
• 4:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Everything they struggled with last year and still they were one of the most efficient offenses in the league.
• 4:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: But what's just what the week and a half we've had to watch, what's been your assessment of the offense?
• 4:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I thought the practice, I think it was two days ago, I don't quote me on that.
• 4:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know exactly which practice I'm talking about it and I wrote it in the kind of observations and notes that I keep and kind of share with fans on X, but that day was bad.
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's no sugar coating if it was just bad.
• 5:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were they were off by a hair on a number of things, but you can always say, well, it was just a hair.
• 5:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good thing.
• 5:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, this is still practice.
• 5:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're still trying to work through things, but they couldn't complete a pass.
• 5:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: They were struggling with, you know, uh,
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: if it was thrown, if it wasn't thrown too high or off by the quarterback, it was a drop, or it was off the hands of somebody, or they fumble the center exchange at one point, there was penalty, it was just an ugly, ugly day, and you're allowed that, like that's fair, like that happens in training camp.
• 5:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think to your point, especially with the receiver group being in kind of the flux that it's in right now, with you have so many injuries, and you have
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: the four guys that you would have said going into camp where they're cut for receiving options none of them practiced so like that puts the quarterback in it's a spot it puts everybody in it's a spot because this is not really what it's going to look like and they do rotate through receivers anyway but it's just a lot harder to ask much of your quarterback when
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's trying to get his timing down with new guys.
• 6:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Mike Evans, Christian Kirk, did you know what I'm saying?
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're all new.
• 6:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he's still trying to kind of get timing with them and then you're changing it up on him.
• 6:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so, like you said, there's reasons for it.
• 6:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is it reason to be alarmed?
• 6:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily think so.
• 6:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But the thing that's always difficult with this guy and you know this, you're trying to evaluate these practices on whether the team is good, right?
• 6:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not just the offense or the defense.
• 6:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in an ideal world, you want it to be
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: a super highly competitive back and forth between the offense and the defense, right?
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like the defense might have got the better of the offense one day and the advice first the next day or but you know even within the practice there's abs and flows of who's having success.
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there's been a little bit more of like the offense was better this day.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: The defense was better that day, but when the offense has struggled in those instances, I do think it's been like
• 6:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: the defense has been fine and there's been good plays made but it's been more about like the offense being sloppy like you said than anything and again still still early August you're still a long way to go but there is things that they need to get worked out even though there's a lot of guys on offense back there's still a lot of guys on offense who are going to be new and you got to get those guys integrated as you know it's possible.
• 7:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: uh... days on dribbling i think you know right away stood out he stood out in comparison to rickie pyrsol we now know why but he just stood out uh... yeah let's do a little stock and only stock up report uh... i've got a few i know you've got a few if you've got a stock down you can but i i don't know that uh... i have one that comes to mind me mac johns has been great but you know that
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not getting into that, who's looked good to you, who stood out to you, rookie, returner, you know, wherever you want to go, but hover over list is what you look.
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: A couple of names, I mean, you said dribbling and certainly I think the thing that stands out about dribbling is that
• 7:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: he kind of gives them a size and speed combination that they don't have, where they might have a guy who has similar to speed or they might have a guy with similar size, but they don't have it in one package and they do have that with him.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's I think the thing that jumps out to me the most with him is just kind of how smooth he accelerates like to get to top speed.
• 8:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't look like he's trying very hard and there's some guys when they get the tops.
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not the name wrong with it, but it just like it looks like the legs are flailing a lot harder Whereas he's got that kind of just smooth striver all of a sudden.
• 8:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's picked up three, four yards on whoever's chasing him And the other thing is is with that size he's not afraid to go over the middle and we've seen him make a number of catches
• 8:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of out of frame over the middle and then and then hall it in and and run with it.
• 8:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think seeing envisioning him in kind of that super charged to want Jennings role is not hard.
• 8:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, if that's the way they want to deploy him.
• 8:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that makes a lot of sense.
• 8:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just based on some of the injuries and things maybe that's the way they go with him.
• 8:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Assuming this hamstring thing is nothing serious.
• 8:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: They say it's tightness it's day today.
• 9:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's been he was doing some running on the side, so it doesn't seem super serious.
• 9:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll say it was running fast like look at it and running fast.
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, wasn't just the light like jogging or whatever I then I'll just flip the other side of the ball and this is on a number of levels, but Ronaldo green.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh Has did you have him on your own?
• 9:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's at the top of my list
• 9:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a couple of things guy and one it's the play I think he's playing very well.
• 9:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's giving his hands on a pass or two in team drills every day.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have to go back through my notes, but I think it's been all six practices.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's had at least one pass break up and usually multiple.
• 9:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's always around the ball.
• 9:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's been unafraid to stick his nose in and run support, but the other thing that jumps out to me and you know, you can take this for what it's worth.
• 9:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: If people don't think it's a big deal, that's fine.
• 9:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I get it.
• 9:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're not agreeing at a 13 minute press conference with us last week.
• 9:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a player who, and this is nothing against them.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: He seems like a perfectly nice guy.
• 9:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know issues with him at all, but just very soft spoken his first couple years.
• 10:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like 13 minutes with him would probably be like four or five interview sessions with him in the past.
• 10:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and to hear to Yamadro LaNore say like he even opened up to me this off season like he's always been quiet like that resonated with me because it's like oh and then you can see it when he comes in and he talks the next day and he just seems like someone who handled that kind of the adversity they had last year in a very mature way and digested it as like no they're trying to make me better.
• 10:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to get me to.
• 10:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: the elite level that they think I can reach.
• 10:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is not a personal thing.
• 10:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're not trying to dump me and, you know, there was trade rumours and all that stuff and he seems like he handled all that really well.
• 10:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he just seemed like someone who's ready to take that next step to being a good corner in the NFL, a good starting corner back.
• 10:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so if he goes beyond that, that's great minutes for the 49ers, but we can get into this more too.
• 10:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: He and Diometerla Noron, Jair Brown,
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: has kind of opened things up for them too.
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's a number of things that kind of play into it, but those are the two that I would just say on a consistency basis day and in day out that that probably jump out to me the most one on each side of the ball.
• 11:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do want to get to the thing you said about defense, but to follow up on the point on Renardo.
• 11:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I just want to hammer this home because I know exactly what you're saying and I think you said it very clearly, but I hope people understand you're not saying next not saying he's he was better with the media so I like it more right that's not what next thing and I think what you're saying is it appears is though the people in the organization are saying they've seen emotional growth from him and maybe emotional is the wrong word, but yeah personal growth and and I would say the thing that Lenore said was really interesting.
• 11:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was really insightful that Raheem Morris said, basically said, you know, I was able to get a former relationship with him quickly because we both know Jalen Ramsey.
• 11:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah.
• 11:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, to me what he was saying under the surface is it might have taken me longer to gain his trust.
• 11:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: if we didn't have that commonality, which I thought was insightful.
• 12:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm with you, like I think he's been a better player.
• 12:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think all of that other stuff, Chris Peterson, the great cultural book coach always used to say, if your room isn't in order off the field, it's going to be hard for you to be at your best on the field.
• 12:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not, you know, that's not a commentary on Renardo, the room not being in order, but it just feels like whatever a rookie year is like, he's better for it, you know.
• 12:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And to add to your point, like, and I'm glad you, I'm glad you clarified that because yeah, I'm not saying that, oh, he's talking to the media more.
• 12:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: That means he's a better player or that means I like it more, whatever.
• 12:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is more about, like, it speaks to a level of, like, self accountability to some extent as well, but just the fact that, like,
• 12:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: we don't know what was going on in his head with the issues that popped up last year where it was a blown assignment or a bad penalty, the things that kind of got him in trouble, and you don't know that, you know, what was what was going on there, and just, and he didn't, he doesn't want to me to explain it to anyone, but,
• 13:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: the fact that he seems now like he's owning things and willing to speak out on those things just speaks to a level of like openness and kind of understanding like hey he's got one of those jobs that like more often than not you're going to get critique for the bad than you're going to get praised for the good because he plays cornerback.
• 13:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very unforgiving position, and I think to that to that point, there's certainly a level there of like, hey, I'm willing now to kind of come out and say, like, I'm just going to take accountability for the things that are messed up, but I'm also going to try to learn from them rather than just kind of saying, okay, I hated getting yelled at by the coach as moved on.
• 13:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I didn't like getting yelled at by the coach, but I understand why he did it, and I want to take his words to heart so that I don't make that same mistake again.
• 13:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's talk about this defense being better.
• 13:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the issues they had last year were not coordinated or related.
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if we could go back to the Steve Wilkes off season or the Nick Sourants and offseason.
• 13:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: If we'd have quotes from players going like, you know, this year, this is the year.
• 14:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I remember several years ago somebody put together like S.B.
• 14:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Nation.
• 14:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was basically like quotes, generic offseason college football quotes from every, like what the strength coach always says, what the quarterback says, what the defense says.
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but you're right, like Renardo has said it.
• 14:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Jaya Brown said at the end of the day, make other guys as I interpret it, what I hear them saying is less thinking more reacting.
• 14:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 14:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that can be a little bit of a red flag.
• 14:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, uh, is this defense not capable of of thinking?
• 14:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think Robert Salah was at a disadvantage last year because he wants to confuse the quarterback.
• 14:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not getting a pass rush, you can't confuse the quarterback with the most complex defense.
• 14:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's kind of a two-fold thing here, right?
• 14:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like you can simplify and I think back like the 2019 solid, even.
• 14:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can simplify if you can get a pass rush.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know, chicken or the egg, what comes first, but how do you interpret what players are saying about this defense?
• 15:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, it's interesting, and I, like, I have the Jair Brown quote right in front of me right here.
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he says, I can't remember the last time I had this much fun.
• 15:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, I asked when he was asked about the scheme.
• 15:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: He said, it fits more into my strong suits, reading a quarterback being reactive and letting my instincts take over.
• 15:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And down the door, an or hinted at similar, Ronaldo green hinted at similar.
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think some of it is is like, like to your point.
• 15:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: They for the defense alignment that come here, they always talk about one of their favorite things about playing in the scheme is how little thinking is involved where it's like, go get the quarterback, go get the ball right like that's that simple, but inherently kind of baked into that.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: The back seven, then are going to have to take on a little bit more, you know, responsibility.
• 15:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we all know that Fred Warner takes on a huge amount of that.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I would say last year, when you didn't have a pass rush, so the guys who are supposed to be doing that, and they're not around.
• 16:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you don't have Fred Warner who can digest a lot more than the average player.
• 16:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: That there's a trickle down effect to that.
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: right where now all of a sudden you're asking those defensive backs and even some of the other linebackers to take on more than they've done in the past and whether that's disguising or it's trying different types of coverages and switching between man and zone or whatever it is, there's an element there that's a lot more difficult than what they had done I think in some previous instances and so I'm sure cutting some of that out and making it easier for them is more fun because they are allowed to play more freely and more instinctively and
• 16:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't necessarily know that that means that the defense of line is going to get handed a whole lot more.
• 16:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a whole lot different.
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there are some things that they're doing differently.
• 16:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just putting a fifth man on the line more frequently and things like that.
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And some of these linebacker positions that we're hearing that have different names, then what we're used to between bike salmon will, not just Mike salmon will anymore.
• 16:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's all those factors that play into it.
• 17:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't necessarily know that anybody is trying to take a pot shot at Robert
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: what was being asked of us wasn't necessarily the thing that I enjoy the thing that can maybe unlock my abilities the most.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what I have to see obviously it's still everything's still going to come down to whether they can get a pass rush because it doesn't.
• 17:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't have one like they didn't last year, it's awfully difficult on the back end regardless.
• 17:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have you seen enough to have some opinion on Ramello height?
• 17:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because we talk what we're talking about
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 17:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think I think it's what you would expect.
• 17:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's he's a work in progress in terms of the run game.
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I think if they had their druthers and guys were healthy that he's probably not going to be in on run downs a lot.
• 17:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: But from a past rush perspective, I mean, you could see the tools like he had a wreck.
• 17:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: granted it was is every day cruise the you know the late round pick offensive tackle he was going against in one of ones the other day but one of the sweetest moves i've seen like just the way he bends the edge i i covered i'm not trying to make a comparison one of one by cover rubber queen when he was with the 40 well i'm sorry with the rams and uh...
• 18:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: He just had this kind of like gumbie like ability to bend the edge where it's like how is he still up right based on the way he torque his body to go underneath an offensive tackle and height did this move where he kind of like fake to spin move like showed his back just halfway to cruise and then kind of duck down and spun through the other direction and and got home for an easy win easy for easy looking for him certainly not easy I don't think it worked on Trent I don't think it worked on Trent
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: It did not try not no, Trent gets his one rep, uh, swaths the guy aside very easily and then goes and works with Nick Bosa.
• 18:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of what he's been doing.
• 18:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, but I think that's I think that's what you're going to see with him is more of that.
• 18:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there have been signs at least in terms of the run game, not necessarily like.
• 18:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this guy's going to be a stout edge setter, but getting off a block to run into the ball.
• 18:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like he plays really hard and you can see that.
• 18:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's definitely potential there.
• 18:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think his role is going to be pretty well defined.
• 18:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So long as they have reasonable health around him, which of course is always a big question.
• 19:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know we don't want to read too much into this because you start going down the depth list and in linebacker.
• 19:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: But
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I definitely took note of how many first or near first team reps Nick Martin and then even Jayden Dugger with the second team are getting has that stood out to you?
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Nick Martin kind of getting that immediate opportunity as the third linebacker surprised me a little bit it's good though like they should at least from a talent standpoint.
• 19:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: and where he was drafted.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the guy who you would think should be in that role and they should be grooming him to be the long-term weekside linebacker I would think as well.
• 19:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: But Drake Greenlaw was talking about the other day and I think the term he used was feverbacker.
• 19:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't had a chance to drill down on what that means yet.
• 19:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I will do that this weekend when we talk to the assistant coaches, but maybe even or he Morris this week.
• 19:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: But my read on it is, it's like, it's kind of a malagamation of a sand linebacker and a fifth edge rushing defense of end, which could be what both of those guys,
• 20:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: height and Martin do just maybe in different kind of combinations of how they're used.
• 20:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, that's speculating on that last part, but that's just a term that Greg Greenlaw throughout, and I was like, oh, well, I think he's talking about those guys specifically.
• 20:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, but Nick Martin, like, the thing with him,
• 20:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Speed is there, the athleticism is there.
• 20:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: The willingness to stick his nose in there is there.
• 20:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that the thing for him is going to be kind of the same issue that Dee Winters had, which is, you've got all this speed, you've got all this athletic ability, you've got a harness at the right way.
• 20:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're not overrunning plays all the time in missing tackles that you should be making because you're in such a hurry to get there.
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: So for him, I think it's just a matter of getting those reps and getting that feel of like when to step on the gas and when to maybe kind of put it in cruise control so that he can make the play.
• 20:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's been some real positive science from him certainly in progress from last year.
• 20:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, he didn't go the way he wanted and maybe even the way the fans wanted, but I think there's certainly still hope for him to be a contributor as soon as this year.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you know, the preseason is where we got the CM last year.
• 21:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: And he made some mistakes over Rains and Plays, but also looked fast, had a big special teams hit, you know, special teams will be obviously a big deal for him.
• 21:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: You, I think, have rightly pointed out that this team is for a team that wants to take carries away from Christian McCaffrey in theory, really thin at running, extremely thin at running back.
• 21:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they've gotten thinner, you know, Jordan James and Kaylon Black are the depth.
• 21:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't have any experience.
• 21:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: K-Lon Black is a rookie and Jordan James basically was a special team or last year in his rookie year.
• 21:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think that a Tim Kyle comedy made this point that I thought it was a really good point.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: that Debo, you know, when we talked about Debo at the beginning of the week, I thought, well, he's not going to, his days as a wide back are over.
• 22:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then after a couple of days, it hit me like, man, he's playing for Kyle Shanahan.
• 22:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: If Kyle Shanahan thinks he can care, the ball is going to, he wants to use him as a chess piece.
• 22:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, I do think that's going to be one of the big upshots of Debo is some of those around the line of Scrimmage Pass is 40% of his catches last year behind the line of Scrimmage.
• 22:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's where we can see taking the load off of Christian.
• 22:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it doesn't mean less carries, but it doesn't mean less touches.
• 22:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, those catches around the line of scrimmage are just as, maybe not just as physical, but they're very physical, also.
• 22:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: So what's your take on how deep both it's in?
• 22:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think you're right.
• 22:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of using the short passing game as an extension of the run game to get the ball on debust team was it look I think there's an element to this now with debo at this stage of his career where you can use him in all those ways as often as you want rather than like deploying it occasionally because you're afraid you're going to get him hurt because if you get him hurt he's such a big part of the game.
• 23:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we heard it so many times, right?
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even in, even in his last year in San Francisco, where I was like, well, we want to do this and that, but we're kind of, you know, dialing it back because if we get it hurt, we've put so much of the game playing in for him, we can't afford to lose him.
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas now, I think the opposite will be true where it's like the game playing is not tailored around him.
• 23:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you've put things in the game plan for him and you're willing to to, you know, diversify what those things are, because you don't have to worry about, well, if the ego gets banged up, the whole game plan goes out the window.
• 23:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: We saw that in a number of times throughout his, his first stint here.
• 23:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think it's going to, you know, you're not going to see him line it up outside and run in the full route tree and all that kind of stuff.
• 23:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, with the injured situation as it is, it may turn out that he plays a lot more, you know, kind of natural normal rider receiver spot than you would expect him to, but yeah.
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I definitely think getting him the ball, like you say, around the line of scrimmage, reverses and around bubble screens, all that jet, all that stuff is kind of where his breath is going to be buttered and I think they like the idea of, yeah, we
• 24:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can do that.
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you do have a John's dribbling and you do have a Mike Evans on the field, now you have a threat that can take it deep and stretch the defense a little bit and open some of that stuff underneath for Debo.
• 24:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then if they do, if Debo starts having some success, maybe it opens things up the other way.
• 24:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, and to your point about McAfrey, they've got to do something because I mean, he looks really good.
• 24:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's having a very nice camp, he looks healthy.
• 24:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: they got to find a way to make sure they can protect them and it's always been easier said than done and with the injuries that they have right now it's like I don't know how they're going to how they're going to do that if they don't have you know guys who they feel comfortable with behind it.
• 24:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well I would say this is I didn't thought of this so I haven't looked it up but it might given plus dribbling plus a one when kiddo comes back plus McAfrey plus dbo that I think is the most threatening red zone personnel group the 49ers have
• 25:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: had under Kyle Shaderhand period, you know, I'm sure if I'm missing something obviously someone will tell me, but Debo had five touchdowns and 17 red zone touches last year.
• 25:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously Mike Evans is a major threat.
• 25:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Christian totally changed the offense.
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: They went from a bad red zone to a really bad red zone team two years ago when Christian only played four games to a really good one last year and then obviously George.
• 25:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like that, they all of a sudden become
• 25:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, Brock's legs.
• 25:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: So they become a devastating red zone offense if all those guys are healthy.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, last one for you, Mike Sando's QB tears out in the athletic.
• 25:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: I did a reaction to it on Tuesday at like 5.20 a.m. And as I thought about it more, one of the things I wish I'd said was, you know, we get so caught up in the rankings.
• 25:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think the tears are also really important.
• 25:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So tier one, for anybody that missed it, Mahalms, Allen, Stafford, Burrow, Tier two was huge.
• 25:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Lamar Jackson five, Justin Herbert six.
• 26:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Dak Prescott, Drake May, Jared Goff, Jordan Love, Brock Perti tied with Caleb Williams at 11, then Jane Daniels and Baker and Donald.
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought the guys do it.
• 26:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're behind Brock made a lot of sense.
• 26:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I knew the two guys in front of Brock would be the ones that people react to, particularly Goff, but love also.
• 26:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: What were your takeaways as you looked at, where Perti was ranked by the 50 executives and coaches?
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I, you know, me guy, I don't get, I don't get too wound up in like the this conversation of like where does this guy rank in the league, but I do think I think that's I think it's fair like I think you can, you can slice it up however you want and I think that you're going to get people, you know, the rational people who want to have this conversation not the ones with just a preconceived notion about where the guy was drafted or whatever.
• 26:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: that they're going to land him somewhere between 8 and 14 on a normal basis, and so if you split the difference that puts him at 11, I think that's fair.
• 27:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I also think it's fair to say, like, well, what does Jordan love done?
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is, you know, what is Jared Goff done, that Brock Perty hasn't, and, you know, Goff has had some Goddy numbers, no doubt about it, more more seasons where he's done that than Brock Perty.
• 27:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think if you want to, if you want to
• 27:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: you could make that case for Jared Golf, you know, say, hey, he's been available on a more frequent basis than Brock Perti has over the last few years, but yeah, I just, I think you, it's interesting because the tier used to be so clearly, it was Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Lamar, like those four, right through the time.
• 27:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Rogers, but even within the last couple of years, I mean, like the that for that that core tech that had kind of separated themselves and it's interesting to see how it changed I thought it was interesting even like it's not a big deal, but you had a guy that said my homes one person said my homes wasn't tier one.
• 27:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, to me, that's a little crazy, but I also, like, it just shows you kind of the year to your aspect of this league and, you know, what was, what was pretty last year?
• 28:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
• 28:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember.
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember what, what number he was.
• 28:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you something.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was his lowest.
• 28:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if he was quite that low.
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Where was he last year?
• 28:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: I should know this because I looked at it this morning.
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I also think too, like, yeah, I think I think too with Perti though, like, if he played a full season last year and played at the level that he did at the end of the season, he probably is ahead of Gothen and Love, right?
• 28:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sure that that is being factored into the way these guys view this and some of these guys probably, I'm sure they do it based on when their teams play these guys, but they also look at the numbers.
• 28:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, QBR and passerating all that is favorable for Brock, but the counting stats aren't always there either.
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you know, he, I don't call it punishment.
• 28:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, we every quarterback should be so lucky has to be punished for playing for Kyle Shanahan.
• 28:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: He was 14th in 2025.
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 28:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 29:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Which, by the way, Dak was 12.
• 29:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Jordan love was 13th.
• 29:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Jalen hurt was 9th.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like.
• 29:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: C.J.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Stroud, tumbleed, hurts, tumble, Baker's rub behind him, like to me, Brock, could a good year for Brock, who, by the way, will turn 27 the day the 49ers play the Kansas City Chiefs on December 27th, like this is when quarterback's take another step.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, like to me, it's not inconceivable that he's has a really good year.
• 29:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's seven all of a sudden.
• 29:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: To me, the guy on the list that has the biggest year is Herbert.
• 29:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now he's got Harva and now he's got Mike McDonald and I think people are going to treat this year for Herbert like.
• 29:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 29:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go.
• 29:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, at least when a playoff game kind of thing.
• 29:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's that's the other thing too is is that you know, we're we as media or guilty of this fans or guilty of this, but teams and lead execs and evaluators are guilty of it too of like there is preconceived notions of guys and so guy that you like it may take you a lot longer if he doesn't have that success to.
• 30:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: kind of backpuddle a little bit and realize like, okay, maybe it isn't there and vice versa is true if you have a preconceived notion about a guy that you think he's not that good and he plays really well.
• 30:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: It might take you a little longer to come around on him.
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, even what I think Drake may was what eighth something like that on the list and he finished second in MVP voting last year.
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that's the end all be all, but I kind of expected Drake may to be.
• 30:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: like fringy tier one, but people still want to see it, right?
• 30:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: They still want to see it for more than one year and Sam Darrell wins a Super Bowl.
• 30:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he's he's down the list a little bit and people are still saying, I still got to see it, even though he's got a Super Bowl.
• 30:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, neither of them look good in the Super Bowl.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: exactly so it's just it's just one of those things like there's just so many like factors that play into it and I'm sure these voters all look at it from a different a different perspective but I don't have a problem with with Brock Perti at 11.
• 30:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's I think a rational person if they said if you had told that a rational person he's anywhere between like 8 and 12, 8 and 13 like I think that they probably be okay with it.
• 31:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think when you say it another way, which is he's in the top half of tier two like that is like okay, and then we can debate, you know, which guys, but all right, Nick, Wednesday, Niners have an open practice.
• 31:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see if Kyle Shanahan is back on the field fully for that.
• 31:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but you know, we're a week old Thursday is a week from the first preseason game.
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you think he's going to coach that game.
• 31:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, he needs to be, I don't know.
• 31:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he feels like I can just, I can come back Tuesday and coach that game.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Perhaps, but we'll see.
• 31:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nick, we'll just keep, keep Flood and Clay Kloobiac, who be at call the point of this, you probably would probably would anyway, so it's just a matter of who's called the timeouts and and for all challenge challenges, which nobody likes to challenge flag throwing coach in the preseason.
• 31:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
• 31:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: All right, that crazy event.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, man.
• 31:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: See you.