Latest / New Worlder / Episode #120: Gregg Moore

Transcript

Episode #120: Gregg Moore · New Worlder

0:43
This is the New Worlder podcast,
0:45
and I am one of your hosts,
0:47
Nicholas Gill.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Today, we are speaking with Greg Moore.
0:56
He's a ceramic artist who is best known for his work with Dan
1:00
Barber at Blue Hill
1:01
SPEAKER_01: and Stone Barns.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: The Glenside,
1:04
Pennsylvania-based artist is a professor of ceramic art at
1:08
Arcadia University and
1:09
SPEAKER_01: also owns the ceramic studio Heirloom,
1:12
SPEAKER_01: which sells plateware influenced by agriculture and farmers markets.
1:18
Why don't we think of the plate with as much depth as we think
1:23
of the food that
1:24
SPEAKER_01: sits on top of it?
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SPEAKER_01: Not just how it holds the food...
1:29
on top or within it,
1:30
but the materials the plate is made from and what it
1:34
represents.
1:35
This discussion with Greg really made me think a lot about the
1:39
vessels we use to
1:40
SPEAKER_01: communicate food.
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It's not every restaurant that can have a ceramicist like Greg
1:45
give them the space
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SPEAKER_01: to be creative,
1:48
SPEAKER_01: but for many that strive for something different,
1:52
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a missed opportunity.
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SPEAKER_01: One of the signature elements he works with is bone,
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SPEAKER_01: using mostly the femurs of cattle that live at stone barns.
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SPEAKER_01: Using a late 1700s recipe by Josiah Spode,
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SPEAKER_01: he breaks down the bones into a powder,
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SPEAKER_01: which gets remade into plates and cups.
2:13
What's fascinating is they have done tests about the quality of
2:17
the bones,
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SPEAKER_01: and it is directly related to how well the cows live.
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SPEAKER_01: A healthier grass-fed cow,
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SPEAKER_01: not injected with hormones,
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SPEAKER_01: has pure bones that result in better plate wear.
2:31
It really makes you think about the things that we're putting
2:34
into our bodies.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: If you haven't subscribed to my newsletter,
2:38
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2:43
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2:44
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2:50
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2:53
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2:55
such as the Latin American Cookbook at small bookstores
2:57
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2:59
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3:01
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3:03
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3:06
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3:08
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3:11
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3:17
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the show.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: Juliana,
3:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you even told me,
3:21
SPEAKER_01: how did you meet Greg or how did you come in contact with Greg?
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SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, good things happen.
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SPEAKER_00: We connected through Instagram somehow.
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SPEAKER_00: And I was looking into his work.
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SPEAKER_00: And I thought, this is great.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: This is really interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: I want to ask him if he'll be in the podcast.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: And we started talking.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: We had a phone call to get to know each other more.
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SPEAKER_00: And he was up for doing this, obviously, unique work too.
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SPEAKER_00: And you were informed about that.
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SPEAKER_00: And then we just set out a time.
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SPEAKER_00: And I have been learning about his work since then.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: And here we are.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: That's how.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: When you brought Greg up, I knew of him.
4:10
SPEAKER_01: I knew of him because I've
4:14
SPEAKER_01: seen his plates at Blue Hill and things.
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SPEAKER_01: So it's super cool what you're doing.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like,
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I'm always fascinated by Blue Hill and what the things going on
4:22
there and just this
4:24
SPEAKER_01: ecosystem of people connected to it in whatever way,
4:28
SPEAKER_01: because it's just,
4:29
SPEAKER_01: it's such a fascinating place.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: And as I was just telling you,
4:32
SPEAKER_01: like I'm there guaranteed every spring to buy plants because it's like,
4:37
SPEAKER_01: they have their great source of plants,
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SPEAKER_01: like from their greenhouses that,
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SPEAKER_01: and they,
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sell them to the community and it's great and i'm not that far
4:45
i'm like a half hour
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away and uh yeah so i i love blue hill and yeah it's beautiful
4:52
up there yeah yeah
4:54
the farm is gorgeous stone barns is it's just a very beautiful
4:59
place to go and when
5:00
we're when we hang up here i'm headed up there actually from
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philadelphia so it's
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SPEAKER_02: it's a couple hour drive for me through new jersey um
5:10
But then,
5:10
you know,
5:11
it opens up when you get to Tarotown and view of the Hudson
5:14
River.
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SPEAKER_02: It's bucolic up there.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: So you're outside of Philly or like in Philly?
5:21
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm just outside of Philadelphia.
5:23
SPEAKER_02: I teach at a university,
5:24
a small liberal arts college just north of the city and live in
5:29
that same town.
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SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's a, it's a first ring suburb of Philadelphia.
5:35
SPEAKER_02: So the,
5:36
SPEAKER_02: the train brings us in,
5:37
SPEAKER_02: in 20 minutes and it's,
5:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you know Philadelphia,
5:40
SPEAKER_02: but it's a,
5:41
SPEAKER_02: it's a great art town and it's,
5:43
SPEAKER_02: um,
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SPEAKER_02: it's really a wonderful food town too.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: Um,
5:48
SPEAKER_02: um,
5:48
SPEAKER_02: and we might get into it,
5:49
SPEAKER_02: but because of this relationship I've had with Dan,
5:53
SPEAKER_02: um,
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SPEAKER_02: Dan Barber,
5:55
SPEAKER_02: uh,
5:55
SPEAKER_02: I've gotten to know
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SPEAKER_02: some Philadelphia chefs who were up at Blue Hill during the pandemic.
6:03
SPEAKER_02: And through them,
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I've been here for 20 something years and really didn't know
6:08
the food scene very
6:08
SPEAKER_02: well.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: But now through the chefs down here,
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SPEAKER_02: I've gotten to know the dynamic food scene here in Philadelphia.
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SPEAKER_02: And it's really wonderful.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: I've been there just a few times, but it's a cool place.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: It's a cool place.
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SPEAKER_01: There's so many just interesting things.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think you don't have
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the pressure as much as new york like new york city like uh
6:30
rents aren't quite as
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much you can be a little more creative you don't have to be
6:34
full every single day
6:35
well you probably still do but i don't know it's just new
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york's so hard right now
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i feel like philly's a good alternative and it's so close hard
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meaning what to have
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a restaurant yeah yeah i mean it's just prices of everything
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are so high rent is so
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SPEAKER_01: like insanely high i mean
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SPEAKER_01: maybe things will change now that,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: suddenly we've had this burst of awareness with,
7:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: Donny just being elected and just the issues of affordability.
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SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's been so hard for restaurants.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know much about like the restaurant scene because I come to this
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SPEAKER_02: collaboration from the art world and the ceramics world and really,
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SPEAKER_02: With a few exceptions, I've only worked with Dan on this project.
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So the rest of what you're,
7:31
I'm sure,
7:32
very much involved in is just tangential for me.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: But to give people some context,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe,
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SPEAKER_00: Greg,
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SPEAKER_00: because,
7:41
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: you come from the art world,
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SPEAKER_00: you have a background in geology,
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SPEAKER_00: and then you have a Master of Fine Arts,
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SPEAKER_00: and you're the Director of Ceramics of this university.
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SPEAKER_00: So...
7:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe let's start by that,
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SPEAKER_00: like that connection between,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:00
SPEAKER_00: geology and then Dan Barber and everything in between.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
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I mean,
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so my undergraduate degree is in upstate New York,
8:09
actually,
8:11
in geosciences.
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SPEAKER_02: And really, it's been my everlasting passion.
8:15
Intellectually,
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it's still my greatest curiosity is geology and the
8:18
geosciences.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think,
8:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: we probably will talk about it during our discussion,
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SPEAKER_02: but it emerges in my work over and over and over again.
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And I was very familiar with the Hudson Valley growing up in
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northern New Jersey
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SPEAKER_02: and spending time up there with family,
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SPEAKER_02: the geology of upstate New York,
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SPEAKER_02: geomorphology of upstate New York.
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SPEAKER_02: And but
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SPEAKER_02: When I was in college is when I took my first ceramics course.
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SPEAKER_02: And,
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SPEAKER_02: um,
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SPEAKER_02: as many students in ceramics in college do,
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SPEAKER_02: they start,
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SPEAKER_02: they were introduced to the field through pottery.
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SPEAKER_02: Uh, and, uh, that's, that was my introduction as well.
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SPEAKER_02: Um, and at Skidmore it was Skidmore college, the quad, uh, was
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was the perfect metaphor for the connection between the
9:10
sciences and the arts,
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SPEAKER_02: because there were these pathways that connected both buildings.
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SPEAKER_02: They were just across this little grassy quad.
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And so I'd spend my time going back and forth between pottery
9:22
classes and geology
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SPEAKER_02: classes,
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SPEAKER_02: and the connections are abundant.
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I think most people can see the connections starting with stone
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and the soil and
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SPEAKER_02: clay,
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SPEAKER_02: obviously.
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SPEAKER_02: So they're there.
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SPEAKER_02: Those connections are both physical and intellectual.
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SPEAKER_02: And after college,
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I spent a few years just making art and then ended up in
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graduate school for a
9:49
SPEAKER_02: master's degree in ceramic art.
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So that transition away from geology as a field of,
9:56
as like a profession into the arts happened.
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SPEAKER_02: And then after graduate school,
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SPEAKER_02: As also often happens, I turned away from pottery and towards sculpture.
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And for the first 10 years of my career,
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I was making sculpture and hadn't made pottery.
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: I would teach pottery,
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SPEAKER_02: so I would do it as an instructor,
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SPEAKER_02: but I wouldn't make it professionally as my work.
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SPEAKER_02: Until in 2009,
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SPEAKER_02: there was an exhibition in Greenwich,
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SPEAKER_02: New York,
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SPEAKER_02: Greenwich House Potter in New York.
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SPEAKER_02: And the curator asked me to be a part of it.
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SPEAKER_02: It was a show called Form Follows Food.
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SPEAKER_02: And it was the first time since I was an undergraduate,
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SPEAKER_02: 15 years past,
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SPEAKER_02: that I approached pottery making again.
10:42
And it was really a critical moment for me because the idea of
10:48
the exhibition was to make
10:50
work,
10:51
make functional pottery work derived from or inspired by very
10:56
specific food.
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SPEAKER_02: And for that, I also have a garden.
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SPEAKER_02: And for years,
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SPEAKER_02: I had been trying to compress the space between my garden,
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SPEAKER_02: my studio and my kitchen.
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SPEAKER_02: You know,
11:09
SPEAKER_02: they're three distinct spaces,
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SPEAKER_02: but the approach to all three,
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SPEAKER_02: at least from my experience was very similar.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I was just trying to shrink
11:19
SPEAKER_02: Um,
11:20
SPEAKER_02: that kind of like,
11:21
SPEAKER_02: um,
11:23
SPEAKER_02: uh,
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SPEAKER_02: not necessarily physical,
11:26
SPEAKER_02: but that kind of metaphorical space between those threes.
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SPEAKER_02: And, um, and the show was the trigger that, that made it happen.
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SPEAKER_02: Um,
11:35
SPEAKER_02: And then from there,
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I made a mixture of sculpture and pottery that really had food
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as its focus until I
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SPEAKER_02: read Dan's book,
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SPEAKER_02: The Third Plate in 2014.
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SPEAKER_02: And then it was actually concurrent.
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SPEAKER_02: I read the book while I had an exhibition up here in Philadelphia.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: where I was partnering with a chef.
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So the exhibition was in the gallery and we did a performance
12:00
in the gallery where
12:01
he made a meal and used all the work that I had made as part of
12:05
the exhibition.
12:05
And we shot just the tabletop,
12:08
this giant rectangular table from the ceiling of the gallery.
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SPEAKER_02: And the meal,
12:15
which was about a three hour experience was projected into the
12:19
adjacent gallery on
12:20
SPEAKER_02: the wall,
12:20
SPEAKER_02: like it was a painting,
12:21
SPEAKER_02: but it was sort of moving slowly.
12:25
And then that same summer I read The Third Plate and I remember
12:29
being interviewed
12:31
for the exhibition and the interviewer asked me if there was a
12:35
chef I could work
12:35
SPEAKER_02: with next,
12:36
SPEAKER_02: who would it be?
12:37
And obviously this was fresh on my mind and I had just like,
12:42
every page was dog-eared.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: There was a post-it nearly in every chapter.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: I've since given away my original book.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: I have no idea where it went,
12:52
SPEAKER_02: so all my notes are gone,
12:53
SPEAKER_02: but I said,
12:58
SPEAKER_02: Dan,
12:58
SPEAKER_02: I'd like to work with Dan.
12:59
And so that next spring I wrote to him and he wrote me back and
13:05
then we started
13:06
SPEAKER_02: working together and it's been 10 years of- What did you write him?
13:10
SPEAKER_01: Just out of curiosity.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: I described the project I was working on in, in the gallery.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: Right.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: And,
13:18
SPEAKER_02: um,
13:18
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:19
SPEAKER_02: I,
13:19
SPEAKER_02: I approach a lot of my work doesn't look like pottery,
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SPEAKER_02: even though it's used as such.
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SPEAKER_02: Um,
13:25
SPEAKER_02: and so I approached the work more,
13:27
SPEAKER_02: I think as a sculptor,
13:28
SPEAKER_02: uh,
13:30
with the then specific and peculiar demand that these
13:34
sculptures need to function.
13:37
And I saw so many similarities between his approach as a chef
13:44
or as a cook in the
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SPEAKER_02: kitchen and my approach as an artist in the studio.
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SPEAKER_02: And I described some of those and I think it resonated.
13:52
SPEAKER_02: So we hit it off.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Just what were those similarities?
13:57
SPEAKER_01: Like kinds of materials being used or?
14:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think a good example, a good example, there's so many.
14:07
But maybe one that I think might be tangible for most is the
14:14
relationship.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: Like if you look at flour in a bakery,
14:18
SPEAKER_02: because there's a whole section in Dan's book about flour,
14:21
about coming into the bakery and seeing the denuded white flour
14:25
that had no
14:25
SPEAKER_02: nutrition and was lifeless.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: Well,
14:29
SPEAKER_02: In the ceramic studio, it's very similar.
14:31
You can make clay by opening a bag of highly processed clay
14:35
that is very regular,
14:40
right?
14:40
SPEAKER_02: It's air floated.
14:41
Every particle is the same,
14:43
but it kind of leaves you wanting more in terms of its
14:47
materiality.
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SPEAKER_02: And so flour and clay, even the process of mixing the two, like...
14:52
You can think about you have flour and you add water to animate
14:56
it,
14:56
right.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: To mix it and animate it.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: Well,
14:58
SPEAKER_02: the same with clay,
14:58
SPEAKER_02: you have powder,
14:59
SPEAKER_02: you add water to animate it,
15:01
SPEAKER_02: and then you give it time to dry and to rest.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: Ceramics has to dry slowly.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't crack bread has to dry or age or have time.
15:11
SPEAKER_02: So, um, Levin, uh, or is that a word?
15:16
SPEAKER_02: Levin?
15:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: Um,
15:19
And then the real transformative element for both is fire or
15:24
heat,
15:24
right?
15:25
SPEAKER_02: Clay becomes ceramic through the application of heat in a kiln.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: Dough becomes bread through the application of heat in an oven.
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SPEAKER_02: And so that's a real kind of,
15:35
SPEAKER_02: I think,
15:35
illustrative example of how the kitchen and the studio are very
15:38
similar ceramics
15:38
SPEAKER_02: and cooking.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: And the examples just kept unfolding.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: And as I was reading,
15:44
SPEAKER_02: reading the third plate,
15:45
I would do these things where I would cross out the word cook
15:49
or chef and write
15:50
SPEAKER_02: artist and the sentence worked.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so it just made sense that we should work together.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: And you actually have these, um,
16:01
SPEAKER_00: I guess is the summary of all these.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Instead of calling it farm to table,
16:08
SPEAKER_00: you included the word kiln,
16:10
which is like that in between a state of cooking or baking or
16:16
through fire
16:17
SPEAKER_00: transforming whatever is coming from the earth,
16:21
SPEAKER_00: right?
16:21
SPEAKER_00: Which is very interesting because it includes your work,
16:24
SPEAKER_00: but it also addresses the function of fire and baking and cooking and
16:31
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: Right.
16:33
SPEAKER_02: Heat as a metamorphosis, right.
16:35
As the agent of metamorphosis and,
16:37
and it,
16:38
it takes what could be very kind of,
16:41
um,
16:42
flat.
16:44
Ingredients,
16:44
so ingredients in the kitchen equals materials in the studio,
16:48
right?
16:48
SPEAKER_02: That's the parallel there.
16:50
And it transforms them into something more meaningful and
16:54
hopefully it becomes sustenance.
16:57
The goal is that in the kitchen,
16:59
it's sustenance,
17:00
that's physical sustenance through food.
17:03
SPEAKER_02: In art,
17:03
it's probably a little more of an emotional or cognitive or
17:07
intellectual sustenance
17:08
SPEAKER_02: through aesthetics.
17:10
And with pottery,
17:12
it's not simply aesthetics,
17:13
it's functionality as well.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: That's another great summary,
17:17
SPEAKER_00: because I was going to ask you how people take this,
17:21
how people absorb this and understand why this might make a
17:25
difference in the
17:25
SPEAKER_00: experience.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: And you just mentioned two things,
17:30
SPEAKER_00: the aesthetics of it,
17:31
SPEAKER_00: and it sustenance through that,
17:32
SPEAKER_00: but also it's functional.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: And it also uses, which is another connection with the barber,
17:38
the whole animal right and the leftovers of the animal even
17:43
after you know not only
17:45
edible but also usable to sustain that food and it's it's
17:51
really it's all connected
17:53
so I don't know if you can tell us more about that like how the
17:58
reactions of people
18:00
but also why why this makes a difference in terms of the food
18:04
world the art world
18:06
SPEAKER_00: the
18:07
SPEAKER_00: you know, climate crisis, world, all of it.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it's definitely full circle.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: And I think my training as a geologist,
18:18
what it does is it kind of expands and shrinks those circles to
18:23
different scales,
18:24
SPEAKER_02: right?
18:24
SPEAKER_02: So the work has as much to do with time as it has to do with material.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: In that,
18:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
18:32
SPEAKER_02: there's a cycle on the farm that is usually a year of planting cycle,
18:36
SPEAKER_02: growing and harvesting,
18:37
SPEAKER_02: or shorter,
18:38
SPEAKER_02: a few months for planting and harvesting.
18:42
And then you can then think of that time scale as an annual
18:46
time scale that repeats
18:49
SPEAKER_02: and repeats and repeats.
18:50
And one of the things that has given me perspective on this is
18:53
that this has been a
18:54
SPEAKER_02: long collaborative journey.
18:57
relationship where over a decade so far we've been,
19:00
I've been able to see these cycles emerge.
19:02
And so there's the,
19:03
there's,
19:05
there's kind of the growing season timescale.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: There's the annual timescale.
19:09
SPEAKER_02: Now it's the decade of work.
19:10
SPEAKER_02: And one of the pieces that I hope we'll talk about is this,
19:13
SPEAKER_02: um,
19:14
SPEAKER_02: uh,
19:14
SPEAKER_02: capturing the surface of the farm over a decade through all the seasons.
19:19
Um,
19:19
which is maybe a piece it's so new that I don't,
19:21
it's not been out there yet.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, that we could talk about and, um,
19:28
SPEAKER_02: And the cyclical nature of it all.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: So really,
19:31
SPEAKER_02: I think where the work,
19:34
my work and Dan's work meet is at the surface of the soil and
19:42
how that plane,
19:44
SPEAKER_02: that surface is where
19:47
SPEAKER_02: matter transmutates.
19:48
If you even go back geologically to the last glaciation and the
19:54
deposition of the
19:55
SPEAKER_02: soil that's now at stone barns in the Hudson Valley 15,000 years ago,
20:00
SPEAKER_02: that rock there that's deposited
20:09
SPEAKER_02: on the farm,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
20:10
SPEAKER_02: you walk around the farm,
20:11
SPEAKER_02: you see these rocks all over and it's been cultivated.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: So they've been moved,
20:14
SPEAKER_02: but those are,
20:15
those are depositions from the last glaciation and those rocks
20:19
over millions of
20:21
SPEAKER_02: years break down into soil and that soil then,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: um,
20:26
SPEAKER_02: so we're talking about something that's geological,
20:27
SPEAKER_02: that soil,
20:28
SPEAKER_02: uh,
20:30
SPEAKER_02: at the surface,
20:31
SPEAKER_02: this very dynamic space,
20:32
SPEAKER_02: the surface of the farm,
20:33
SPEAKER_02: roots break down,
20:36
SPEAKER_02: enzymes break down the soil into nutrients for plants,
20:40
SPEAKER_02: let's say grass.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: So we have the transmutation of,
20:44
SPEAKER_02: of matter from rock to biology,
20:47
SPEAKER_02: something geological to biological,
20:48
SPEAKER_02: and then the grass gets eaten.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: It goes from plant to animal and the cow.
20:53
SPEAKER_02: um, digests the grass.
20:55
And if you,
20:56
I,
20:56
I like to describe it as like,
20:57
um,
20:57
have you ever read the,
20:58
um,
20:59
magic school bus?
21:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I used to read that to my kids all the time.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: And, um, it's like, if you hop on the magic school bus on, um,
21:10
SPEAKER_02: on a calcium particle or a phosphorus, calcium and phosphorus.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: And then,
21:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:15
SPEAKER_02: it goes from rock to soil,
21:16
SPEAKER_02: from soil through the roots to grass,
21:18
SPEAKER_02: from the grass to the cow,
21:20
SPEAKER_02: deposited into the bone,
21:21
SPEAKER_02: becomes bone material.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: Now, what was a rock is now walking around on the farm.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: And then we eat
21:30
SPEAKER_02: that cow, and then the leftovers are the bones.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: And those bones, they used to be rock.
21:36
If we're still on that calcium or phosphorus atom,
21:42
become part of us,
21:43
right,
21:43
in the meat.
21:44
SPEAKER_02: But then the bone leftover, what do we do with it?
21:47
SPEAKER_02: Does it go back to the soil?
21:49
SPEAKER_02: But in my case,
21:51
SPEAKER_02: it becomes part of not the food that we're eating,
21:55
SPEAKER_02: but the dishes that we're eating the food off of,
21:57
SPEAKER_02: because I take those bones and turn them into bone china.
22:00
And then they return back to the kitchen and to the restaurant
22:02
to serve that very
22:06
SPEAKER_02: food that was once the same material.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: And then,
22:10
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:10
SPEAKER_02: if we can expand that geologic time millions of years ahead,
22:14
SPEAKER_02: it'll just become soil again and maybe metamorphize into rocks again.
22:18
And like,
22:19
so it's really just that scale that we choose to view this at,
22:23
those cycles change.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: continue and,
22:26
SPEAKER_02: and in terms of ecological sense,
22:29
SPEAKER_02: um,
22:31
there's this just wonderful book written by a geologist in
22:34
Wisconsin called,
22:35
SPEAKER_02: um,
22:36
SPEAKER_02: timefulness.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's a geological perspective on time.
22:42
SPEAKER_02: And then our relationship as humans to our,
22:46
SPEAKER_02: um,
22:46
SPEAKER_02: environment,
22:47
SPEAKER_02: ecology,
22:48
SPEAKER_02: and our role and responsibility in there.
22:50
SPEAKER_02: Um,
22:52
And,
22:53
you know,
22:53
I think the work,
22:56
eating is such a fleeting moment,
22:58
right?
22:59
SPEAKER_02: It's you're at the table and you take a bite and that is now,
23:03
SPEAKER_02: that food that was not a part of you is now a part of you.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: And it's almost instantaneous.
23:08
Whereas the kind of thinking about this cycle geologically and
23:15
how the work that I
23:16
SPEAKER_02: make is a part of it is just a much longer time scale.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, they're all the same.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: In the restaurant world and culinary world,
23:27
SPEAKER_01: we want to think of food that's alive,
23:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:30
SPEAKER_01: coming from soil that's alive.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: And,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:33
SPEAKER_01: otherwise it's just like,
23:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:36
SPEAKER_01: some weird chemicals put together and glued together and packaged and,
23:41
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:41
SPEAKER_01: just this dead shit that doesn't give us any nutrition.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: But it's like...
23:48
SPEAKER_01: so little do people think about what,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: the actual plates in like other parts of the restaurant,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
23:55
SPEAKER_01: like it's,
23:56
SPEAKER_01: it's weird that that's like missing from the conversation sometimes that,
23:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:01
SPEAKER_01: like,
24:01
SPEAKER_01: why shouldn't the plate be alive too?
24:06
That's what I feel like when,
24:07
when,
24:07
when I hear you talk about it,
24:09
it's like,
24:11
SPEAKER_01: These rocks, these minerals and everything, they're alive.
24:16
SPEAKER_01: They're part of this earth too.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: They're moving and transforming and they're giving the plants life.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: So why shouldn't they be the foundation of what the food's sitting on?
24:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I agree.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: And I think,
24:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:33
SPEAKER_02: it's really,
24:33
SPEAKER_02: I think we tend to think of things that are rocks,
24:38
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:38
SPEAKER_02: geological chemicals and rocks as over here in one category.
24:42
And there's a divide,
24:44
this gap,
24:44
this vacuum between that and things that are living.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: But if you look closely enough, it's all the same stuff.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: And that stuff goes back and forth.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: The biogeochemical cycle is really a cycle.
24:59
Things become biology and geology and back and forth,
25:02
and it's very cyclical.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: So when you sit,
25:04
SPEAKER_02: when you come,
25:05
SPEAKER_02: if you eat at Blue Hill Stone Barns,
25:08
SPEAKER_02: the place setting really is the title of the piece.
25:12
SPEAKER_02: It's a three-piece, three-object piece, the place setting that's there.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: And I like to think of it as place dash setting.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: So it's a place setting, but it is also setting place.
25:25
And that's very important because it emerges out of a very
25:30
specific location.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: You'll see this sort of brown,
25:36
very dark brown charger that sits on the table that's made out
25:40
of the soil from
25:42
SPEAKER_02: about four feet under the stone barn's
25:47
SPEAKER_02: We did soil tests and saw which soil had higher clay content.
25:51
SPEAKER_02: So we dug down and grabbed some of that,
25:53
mixed half and half with the black porcelain material that I
25:57
make for a series of
25:59
SPEAKER_02: bowls called chef's bowls.
26:01
SPEAKER_02: So that's the charger.
26:04
It's important because of what you just said,
26:05
Nick,
26:06
was like,
26:07
it sets the ground.
26:08
SPEAKER_02: It is the ground.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: It literally is the ground.
26:11
But it's also the metaphorical ground for a series of courses
26:16
to be laid on.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: So it's both the physical and metaphorical ground.
26:20
On that sits this little cream-colored plate that is porcelain,
26:23
but it has expressions.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: They're actually like physical expressions,
26:27
SPEAKER_02: like fossils of wheat and rye and grass from the fields outside.
26:37
And then a cup,
26:38
a little grass-fed bone china cup made from the bones from the
26:42
kitchen.
26:43
And that's the place setting and it's animal,
26:46
it's vegetable and it's mineral.
26:48
It's there and it's really kind of setting the stage for why
26:52
people go there,
26:53
SPEAKER_02: not for my pottery,
26:54
SPEAKER_02: but for the food.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: Right.
26:55
And it both hopefully sets that stage and then has a
27:00
conversation with the food.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:04
one of the things that I don't like thinking about my work as
27:07
is a pallet or a
27:09
canvas for the food because that pallets and maybe more
27:14
specifically canvases are
27:16
SPEAKER_02: just kind of like facile.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: They just sit there and people are there not caring about it.
27:20
But I hope that there's more of an integration with the food
27:24
and the objects.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: But there is also this cool thing.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: It's a test of quality too,
27:30
because I was reading about the differences between when you
27:34
use not grass-fed cows
27:37
SPEAKER_00: and like bones,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: the leftovers,
27:39
SPEAKER_00: when they use different ones,
27:42
SPEAKER_00: the quality of the product is different.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: The color, how bright they are.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: So...
27:50
I think we have many ways,
27:52
if we are connected with our bodies,
27:55
to know how good the food is.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: But sometimes it's not immediately visible.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: I think your ceramics are, because you can tell, right?
28:06
SPEAKER_00: From what I read, the product is different.
28:09
When you use different cows that haven't been fed or taken care
28:14
of in the same way
28:15
SPEAKER_00: that a cow that has been properly taken care of.
28:20
that's that you know that's proof i love that so people yeah
28:24
they go to eat the
28:25
food but the fact that the quality of the product is different
28:29
is also should be is
28:32
like inspiring and motivating to say okay this is this is food
28:36
that is different
28:38
yeah absolutely i mean that was a study that that i think
28:41
you're citing that i did
28:42
SPEAKER_02: with a colleague of mine on um
28:45
SPEAKER_02: material qualities of bone china, depending on the source of the bone.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: So we studied three sample sets, industrially produced bone ash
28:58
SPEAKER_02: grain-fed bone ash and grass-fed bone ash.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: And the results were really extraordinary.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: So much so that you can,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: when you hold the object,
29:08
like you can look at a scanning electron microscopic image of
29:11
the difference of the
29:12
SPEAKER_02: three and there it's evident,
29:14
SPEAKER_02: but you have to have a little bit of training on how to analyze
29:17
um those images but if you hold a cup one of my cups out of
29:22
this grass-fed bone
29:23
china and then you hold a similar object that's out of
29:25
industrially raised bone ash
29:27
bone china um you can feel it and i like to think of it as like
29:32
if if you can taste
29:34
SPEAKER_02: how an animal is raised.
29:36
SPEAKER_02: It's better, tastes better, but it also is better for you.
29:41
SPEAKER_02: You can see it.
29:43
SPEAKER_02: And importantly with my work, you can also feel it.
29:46
So one of the things that I struggle with is like having people
29:50
know my work through pictures.
29:52
SPEAKER_02: because tactility is so important.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:57
SPEAKER_02: The cup itself is so light.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: It's so thinly made that the weight of it almost disappears.
30:04
SPEAKER_02: And what you're feeling is the weight of the water that's in it.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: And it's unglazed.
30:12
SPEAKER_02: And it's very, very, I polish it very smoothly.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: So
30:17
It's almost like rubbing a river stone between your thumb and
30:21
your finger.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: But how do you describe that in an image?
30:25
SPEAKER_02: It's very difficult.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: That is amazing.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: I think that's, yeah, that's beautiful.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, the other thing is like, how did you come out?
30:34
Because I know you used this traditional metal from the 18th
30:39
century of this famous
30:41
SPEAKER_00: British China maker,
30:42
SPEAKER_00: right?
30:43
How did you end up just deciding that that was the technique
30:48
you were going to use?
30:49
SPEAKER_02: Well, that was Josiah Spode.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure people have Spode pottery in their cabinets.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's quite common, right, to make bone china.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Is it common in the U.S.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: or just?
31:04
There is a little bit of a history,
31:05
but Spode in 1899,
31:07
he perfected,
31:08
actually,
31:08
Josiah Spode II.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: So he perfected the recipe for bone china,
31:13
although it had been around for about 45 years before in
31:16
another factory in
31:16
SPEAKER_02: Britain.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: But it also tells a story of the co-evolution of agriculture and
31:22
SPEAKER_02: and industrial ceramics,
31:24
SPEAKER_02: because for hundreds and hundreds of years,
31:28
the British and many European manufacturers were trying to
31:32
replicate Chinese
31:33
SPEAKER_02: porcelain,
31:34
SPEAKER_02: white,
31:35
SPEAKER_02: hard,
31:36
SPEAKER_02: dense,
31:36
SPEAKER_02: impervious,
31:37
SPEAKER_02: translucent,
31:39
SPEAKER_02: and they couldn't.
31:40
SPEAKER_02: And at some point,
31:41
SPEAKER_02: they were just sort of grinding up everything white and adding it to two
31:46
SPEAKER_02: ingredients that they knew.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: They were pretty sure two ingredients they knew, but not the third.
31:50
And at that same time,
31:52
beef cattle was becoming more popular in Britain and milk.
31:59
SPEAKER_02: And so there were more bones to deal with.
32:02
SPEAKER_02: And those bones,
32:03
clever industrialists like Josiah Spode started grinding them
32:08
up in the hopes to
32:08
SPEAKER_02: make a Chinese porcelain and discovered a new material called bone china.
32:13
What's so interesting to me about bone china,
32:15
so the reason I use Spode's recipe
32:18
SPEAKER_02: It's because he's the one who perfected it.
32:20
SPEAKER_02: And I want the material to have,
32:24
it really has more in common with his material than it does
32:27
with contemporary bone
32:28
SPEAKER_02: china because cows back then weren't fed grain,
32:33
SPEAKER_02: weren't given chemicals or hormones,
32:37
SPEAKER_02: et cetera.
32:38
So the bone china that I produced from the kitchen at Blue Hill
32:41
materially has more
32:42
SPEAKER_02: in common with Spode's original
32:44
SPEAKER_02: bone china than other stuff does.
32:50
But it's another stop along this magic school bus of where
32:53
ceramics and agriculture
32:55
SPEAKER_02: meet and cross,
32:57
SPEAKER_02: right?
32:57
Because the invention of bone china wouldn't have happened
33:00
without the animal husbandry
33:03
in Britain of greater,
33:05
well,
33:05
greater wealth,
33:06
greater meat eating and more cows being raised.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: So it's mostly cattle, right?
33:12
SPEAKER_01: That is almost entirely cattle, always cattle.
33:16
No,
33:17
I mean,
33:18
so a couple of examples that aren't in Finland,
33:21
it's sometimes reindeer.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: And in my studio, I'm doing a lot of different animals.
33:28
SPEAKER_02: So I've done, I've done most of the farm animals.
33:32
Um,
33:33
and,
33:34
uh,
33:35
sheep and chickens and goats and cows,
33:40
obviously it's mostly cows.
33:41
I mean,
33:41
the work that I make and produce for the restaurant is all
33:44
cows,
33:45
but pigs as well.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, and, but in, so my, my, uh,
33:53
uh,
33:54
co investigator in,
33:56
in the bone China studies,
33:57
uh,
33:58
an evolutionary biologist.
33:59
So he was deaccessioning some of the animals in his lab,
34:02
some of the skeletons.
34:04
SPEAKER_02: So I was like, well, let's put them to use.
34:06
SPEAKER_02: So we turned them into bone China.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I have some turtle bone China and some marmot bone China.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: These were all animals that had been dead for a long time ago and,
34:17
SPEAKER_02: and,
34:18
SPEAKER_02: uh,
34:18
SPEAKER_02: part of a scientific lab display.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: Um,
34:23
And,
34:23
you know,
34:24
with few exceptions,
34:25
like a healthy bone is calcium and phosphorus.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: So it's basically, it doesn't matter.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's all the same material in the end for the most part?
34:33
SPEAKER_02: Unless it's unhealthy.
34:34
SPEAKER_02: Um,
34:36
SPEAKER_02: so like the,
34:37
SPEAKER_02: the grain fed,
34:38
SPEAKER_02: uh,
34:39
SPEAKER_02: animals showed a prevalence of a mineral called Whitlockite,
34:42
SPEAKER_02: which is calcium and phosphorus bound to iron and manganese or magnesium.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: I don't quite remember.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: Um,
34:50
SPEAKER_02: And because of that,
34:52
SPEAKER_02: those two elements actually reduce firing temperature,
34:57
SPEAKER_02: tend to produce colors that are a little more yellow,
35:01
SPEAKER_02: so a little less white and create a weaker structure.
35:05
So the same elements deposited in bone that make the bone
35:09
weaker because of lack of
35:11
SPEAKER_02: exercise and poor diets or manufactured diets is maybe more accurate.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: lead to lower quality bone china,
35:20
which is to say that grass-fed animals that walk around a lot
35:23
and exercise their
35:27
SPEAKER_02: muscles and have stronger bones lead to better,
35:30
SPEAKER_02: by historical definitions,
35:32
historical definitions of quality of bone china have to do with
35:35
whiteness,
35:35
SPEAKER_02: translucency,
35:36
SPEAKER_02: and durability.
35:37
All three of those categories are improved when the animal eats
35:40
grass and walks around.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: Quality, durability, and?
35:46
SPEAKER_02: It's strength,
35:48
SPEAKER_02: so durability,
35:48
SPEAKER_02: hardness,
35:50
SPEAKER_02: translucency,
35:51
SPEAKER_02: how much you can see through it,
35:53
SPEAKER_02: and whiteness.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
35:56
There are,
35:56
like,
35:57
ethical concerns and a bit of a confrontation for people.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's a discussion around vegetarianism or being an omnivore.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: What happens if you see the actual animal, if you lead animal?
36:12
SPEAKER_00: the same or not, right?
36:13
That's the question that is around and addressed often in these
36:17
discussions.
36:19
You are actually doing that with your work because you work
36:23
with the bones,
36:23
SPEAKER_00: you touch the bones,
36:25
SPEAKER_00: you just direct.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Have you thought about that?
36:30
SPEAKER_00: How does that feel for you?
36:33
SPEAKER_00: What people tell you about it?
36:35
Because it's this same ethical,
36:38
existential,
36:39
physiological,
36:40
emotional question
36:41
SPEAKER_00: but with your work, through your work.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:45
SPEAKER_02: I think about it all the time.
36:47
So my father was a butcher and I'd grow up,
36:50
uh,
36:51
and work sometimes in a slaughterhouse.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I was around cows from very early on.
36:58
SPEAKER_02: Um,
36:59
SPEAKER_02: and,
37:00
SPEAKER_02: um,
37:00
SPEAKER_02: and it was a whole cow plant,
37:01
SPEAKER_02: like a cow would walk in one end and,
37:03
SPEAKER_02: and cuts of meat would come out the other end.
37:05
SPEAKER_02: Um,
37:07
And so when I went to college,
37:08
I became a vegetarian and spent 20 years as a vegetarian,
37:12
right?
37:12
SPEAKER_02: As you do, you leave the house and you do the opposite, right?
37:17
SPEAKER_02: But,
37:17
SPEAKER_02: you know,
37:18
that was in the nineties when I don't think there was the
37:20
availability or the,
37:21
at least the understanding of the environmental impact of the
37:27
meat industry,
37:28
SPEAKER_02: the way it was being run.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: And I think the choices were fewer.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: for more humanely raised beef.
37:36
SPEAKER_02: You guys probably know more about this than I do.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: But at least through my experience,
37:41
SPEAKER_02: I feel like over the past 25 years,
37:44
SPEAKER_02: 20,
37:44
SPEAKER_02: 25 years,
37:46
SPEAKER_02: I've gained greater knowledge of the connection between our impact on the
37:54
SPEAKER_02: environment and meat eating,
37:56
SPEAKER_02: meat growing,
37:57
SPEAKER_02: meat raising,
37:58
SPEAKER_02: and also quality.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: importantly.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: And so when I decided to eat meat again,
38:03
was not surprisingly concurrent with the beginning of this
38:07
project with Dan,
38:08
SPEAKER_02: there were,
38:09
SPEAKER_02: I could see it through that lens,
38:11
SPEAKER_02: having grown up first 20 years of my life as a son of a butcher,
38:17
SPEAKER_02: next 20 years of my life as a vegetarian,
38:19
SPEAKER_02: And now I think I have that perspective where I don't think it's,
38:23
SPEAKER_02: it's not,
38:24
it's not a mistake that you can use my bone China cups and see
38:29
the cows walking
38:30
SPEAKER_02: around the farm at the same time.
38:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:33
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: And, um, it's not that it's not something to hide.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's something to illuminate.
38:40
And if it's done well,
38:42
there's,
38:42
I think there's,
38:43
there's a lot of pride in that.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: Talking about transparency.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: I would also say,
38:50
SPEAKER_02: I think just,
38:52
SPEAKER_02: Juliana,
38:52
SPEAKER_02: something you said just reminded me that most people,
38:55
SPEAKER_02: when they interact with it,
38:57
SPEAKER_02: they kind of have this aha moment,
39:00
SPEAKER_02: like,
39:00
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know,
39:01
SPEAKER_02: they'd heard of bone china,
39:02
SPEAKER_02: but they didn't know it was made out of bones.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: And I love that reaction.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: There's that connection to how we raise food once again.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious, do diners at Blue Hill ever complain?
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Just thinking some very progressive diners that are vegans.
39:27
SPEAKER_01: I assume Dan has a vegan menu or a vegetarian option?
39:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think they can accommodate everything.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: There's really no menu though.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: I guess so.
39:39
But I'm sure there's people that come in and say they don't eat
39:43
meat or whatever.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: They're vegetarian or vegan.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm curious if they ever complain about the bone china.
39:53
SPEAKER_02: I haven't heard any.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: It just came to me.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: I wonder how that would impact their thinking.
40:02
Well,
40:02
I'm guessing if it's a vegetarian menu or vegan,
40:05
they don't use the bone china,
40:06
right?
40:08
I think if somebody would express that they were vegan and
40:12
wouldn't like wear
40:13
SPEAKER_02: leather or sit on leather,
40:15
SPEAKER_02: then this would be akin to it.
40:17
SPEAKER_02: It's the material culture component of veganism.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: And yes, it's made out of what was at one point animal.
40:28
You know,
40:28
but there's some discussion I would maybe,
40:30
this might be a little too nerdy,
40:32
but
40:32
SPEAKER_02: Like if you look under a microscope,
40:35
SPEAKER_02: you can tell that the material,
40:39
SPEAKER_02: that when calcium is bound to phosphorus in a bone,
40:42
SPEAKER_02: it's called hydroxyl appetite.
40:44
And you can always tell that it was once bone,
40:48
even if it's been pulverized and then fired.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: And like,
40:51
SPEAKER_02: if you have the right equipment to look at it,
40:54
SPEAKER_02: it always expresses some of its animal quality.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
40:59
SPEAKER_00: if you're making,
41:00
SPEAKER_00: if you're using clay or whatever similar material you are eating,
41:06
SPEAKER_00: you are already eating animals,
41:08
SPEAKER_00: right?
41:08
SPEAKER_00: Somehow they have to be almost everywhere or at least not plant-based.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: It's not a 100 plant-based ceramic.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: Or rock-based.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: It's just that there is everything.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I never thought of that.
41:29
But I mean,
41:29
if you go back far enough,
41:30
a lot of limestones were once shells of animals,
41:35
right?
41:36
SPEAKER_02: That might be a little too far.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, another research maybe with one of your colleagues.
41:43
But when people start putting these like absolutes into their
41:47
thinking of things,
41:50
SPEAKER_01: it's really hard.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like, how far are you going to take it?
41:53
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just wondering if...
41:55
SPEAKER_01: that ever happens.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it has.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there's some story at Blue Hill.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious about the artistic part of it.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: How do you decide which design you're going to use?
42:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is...
42:11
SPEAKER_00: This is,
42:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
42:12
SPEAKER_00: it's kind of a silly question because it's like asking an artist,
42:17
SPEAKER_00: how do you decide what you are going to paint or,
42:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:20
SPEAKER_00: make?
42:21
SPEAKER_00: But because you have that clarity in terms of what it means,
42:27
SPEAKER_00: you know what the product is coming from.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: You have a picture of the animal.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in this case, your collaboration with Dan Barbera
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Or another chef that has a concept in the restaurant.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing you have all that in mind.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: So how is that creative process?
42:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so in my studio, I always start with idea.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: And the concept drives the outcome.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: And so,
42:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
42:57
SPEAKER_02: back to this kind of notion that if flavor is to food,
43:01
SPEAKER_02: what aesthetics is to art?
43:04
SPEAKER_02: I'm not so sure flavored.
43:06
One of the things that I like about Dan's approach is that it's
43:08
very conceptual.
43:11
SPEAKER_02: that the idea,
43:12
SPEAKER_02: and in many,
43:13
SPEAKER_02: many cases,
43:14
SPEAKER_02: I would say maybe most cases,
43:15
SPEAKER_02: the idea is like better health,
43:18
SPEAKER_02: better soil health,
43:20
SPEAKER_02: people health,
43:20
SPEAKER_02: animal health,
43:21
SPEAKER_02: plant health,
43:22
SPEAKER_02: drives the idea for the food that emerges.
43:24
And for me,
43:25
it's the concept that drives the idea for the pieces that I
43:30
make.
43:30
So just to kind of take a step back,
43:34
our relationship,
43:34
I think,
43:37
is very productive because
43:40
SPEAKER_02: Um,
43:41
SPEAKER_02: it is collaborative in the true sense of that word,
43:45
SPEAKER_02: where,
43:46
SPEAKER_02: where,
43:46
SPEAKER_02: um,
43:47
SPEAKER_02: there's a dialogue that is multi-directional.
43:50
SPEAKER_02: So in a traditional chef pottery relationship,
43:53
SPEAKER_02: there's often a kind of a,
43:55
SPEAKER_02: a one directional commission based approach.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: Like I need a plate that's nine inches.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: That's white with a rim so that the piece don't fall off.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: But for us, um, we, uh, really go back and forth.
44:07
SPEAKER_02: So I'll spend time in the studio.
44:12
thinking of ideas that emerge from spending time in the kitchen
44:15
with him and eating
44:18
the food that he makes or walking around the farm and come up
44:24
with new ideas to
44:25
SPEAKER_02: bring to him to use and to play with and to see if he can activate.
44:29
SPEAKER_02: His food really activates these objects.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: And then there'll be a back and forth.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: Well, he might have an idea to serve
44:38
SPEAKER_02: um,
44:39
a particular beat that he's growing or raising or a type of
44:42
wheat that he,
44:42
SPEAKER_02: that he raises,
44:43
SPEAKER_02: um,
44:44
and challenge me to make a vessel that connects with
44:49
intellectually and also serves
44:52
SPEAKER_02: functionally.
44:52
SPEAKER_02: Right.
44:53
SPEAKER_02: It has to go through a dishwasher.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, and, and the wait staff has to be able to carry it, you know, like,
45:00
Some of my work is really heavy and it just has to be like not
45:05
so heavy where you
45:05
SPEAKER_02: can't carry it.
45:07
So there are some of those concerns that have a little bit more
45:10
to do with design
45:11
SPEAKER_02: than they do with art,
45:12
SPEAKER_02: right?
45:12
SPEAKER_02: Practicality and design.
45:14
But the idea for the work really emerges from this
45:20
collaborative back and forth
45:22
SPEAKER_02: dialogue that we have.
45:23
And when it's really firing is when we're just kind of like
45:27
coming up with ideas
45:28
SPEAKER_02: and challenging each other.
45:30
SPEAKER_02: So a good example,
45:31
SPEAKER_02: I think,
45:32
SPEAKER_02: would be what I had mentioned before,
45:35
this decade-long process that I've been doing where when I go
45:39
to the farm,
45:39
I take a mold of the surface of a part of the farm and then
45:44
bring it back to the
45:45
SPEAKER_02: studio and use that mold to press plates into or objects into.
45:52
SPEAKER_02: And so it records a moment in time, a season,
45:58
SPEAKER_02: And very much a location,
46:00
SPEAKER_02: which just happens to be,
46:01
SPEAKER_02: not just happens to be,
46:02
SPEAKER_02: is critically right outside the dining room where people are eating.
46:06
And then those return back to the kitchen as kind of a how can
46:12
they be employed?
46:13
SPEAKER_02: How can you use them to get the most meaning out of them?
46:16
SPEAKER_02: And they also have to look good.
46:19
SPEAKER_02: Art generally works better if it looks good.
46:22
Not always,
46:23
but you can engage with an audience if there's an aesthetic
46:26
that's intriguing.
46:28
SPEAKER_02: And that engagement wants them to lean in, not step back from the thing.
46:38
SPEAKER_02: So I just finished a series of plays that is a cast from each season.
46:43
SPEAKER_02: So there are four casts.
46:44
And you can really see in the fall,
46:46
there are a couple of vegetables that are
46:50
SPEAKER_02: rotting in the ground.
46:51
SPEAKER_02: There's like a bit of an eggplant sticking up from the cast.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: It's really beautiful.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: And in the spring, there's some decaying leaves.
46:57
SPEAKER_02: In the summer, it's more freshly tilled.
46:59
And the winter has these deep cracks from the frost or the
47:03
freeze-thaw cycle.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: And we just photographed these on each of the casts.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: is a pickled vegetable that represents that season.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: So grown in that season, pickled for storage.
47:17
SPEAKER_02: And so there again,
47:18
it's the relationship between the surface of the farm where
47:22
everything happens and
47:25
SPEAKER_02: the result of what's grown on the farm being served,
47:27
SPEAKER_02: brought back to the surface of the farm as a plate.
47:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that really answers that question, Juliana.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: No, it does.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, of course.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Sequence.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: So are those,
47:38
each of those plates used at different periods of the year or
47:42
are they all used
47:43
SPEAKER_01: like in the same menu?
47:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, good question.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: I don't, they're so new that I'm not sure I know how to answer that.
47:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, there, there's a, maybe I could answer.
47:56
There's another series of objects that I've made that is the
48:00
animal analog to this
48:02
SPEAKER_02: vegetable process where I,
48:04
SPEAKER_02: um,
48:05
SPEAKER_02: um,
48:06
SPEAKER_02: For a long time,
48:07
SPEAKER_02: the information book,
48:09
SPEAKER_02: not quite a menu,
48:10
SPEAKER_02: but the book you're given when you sit down is based off of the,
48:14
SPEAKER_02: it's called pecking,
48:15
SPEAKER_02: grazing,
48:16
SPEAKER_02: rooting.
48:16
SPEAKER_02: I might not have the order correct,
48:17
SPEAKER_02: but those three,
48:18
SPEAKER_02: three ways that,
48:19
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
48:20
SPEAKER_02: that animals transform crops,
48:23
something that we can eat like acorns and grass into something
48:26
we can eat their
48:27
SPEAKER_02: bodies.
48:29
SPEAKER_02: So I fed sheep and chickens and pigs.
48:36
SPEAKER_02: And what am I missing?
48:38
SPEAKER_02: Oh, those amazing Toulouse geese.
48:40
It's Berkshire pigs,
48:42
Toulouse geese,
48:43
and I don't know what kind of sheep they were.
48:46
SPEAKER_02: So I prepared in my studio rounds of clay, discs of clay.
48:53
SPEAKER_02: One of them I grew grass in for the sheep.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: Another,
48:56
SPEAKER_02: when I got up to the farm,
48:57
SPEAKER_02: I put some acorns and scraps from the kitchen in for the pigs.
49:02
SPEAKER_02: And the third,
49:03
more acorns for the geese and some of what the geese were
49:07
eating and fed them so
49:09
SPEAKER_02: that the sheep would nibble on the grass.
49:13
SPEAKER_02: The pigs just totally destroyed the plate, the first one.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: The second one, we got out of the pig pen before they could destroy it.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: And then the goose one, the pecking one was really beautiful.
49:26
SPEAKER_02: They were a little timid.
49:27
SPEAKER_02: They'd stood on the plate and pecked.
49:28
SPEAKER_02: but it recorded that activity in wet clay,
49:32
SPEAKER_02: very much like a T-Rex stepping in wet mud and we find a fossil.
49:39
And then took those back to the pseudo,
49:40
made molds of them and then cast them in plates.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: So the plates are called pecking,
49:44
SPEAKER_02: grazing,
49:45
SPEAKER_02: rooting,
49:45
SPEAKER_02: and they actually show that activity in physical form.
49:52
And then they get returned to the table to like in the pig one,
49:57
for example.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
49:58
SPEAKER_02: they get used to serve lots of different things,
49:59
but it served at one point a tart made out of ingredients that
50:09
a pig forages for,
50:11
SPEAKER_02: right?
50:11
SPEAKER_02: So it's really this kind of full circle.
50:13
And that's where,
50:15
like at that plate,
50:15
that's where I want that story to be told,
50:17
yeah.
50:19
I'm just curious,
50:20
like how much do the waiters explain of your ceramics like at
50:24
the table?
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Because one issue I have at a lot of,
50:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
50:29
fine dining restaurants is sometimes there's too much
50:32
information given and it's
50:34
like you just become overwhelmed with where everything's from
50:39
and like you're
50:40
SPEAKER_01: sitting there for five minutes and the food's getting cold and all that.
50:43
Like how much,
50:45
because I mean,
50:45
the information you're given about the farm is already a lot.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: of just what the cow's been eating to get that butter and whatever.
50:55
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of information there.
50:57
SPEAKER_01: How much are the diners aware of the plates?
51:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know how to answer that.
51:05
SPEAKER_02: I think as much as they want to know.
51:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
51:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
51:12
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I think that's the best approach.
51:15
SPEAKER_01: But go on.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
51:16
SPEAKER_02: No, no, I agree.
51:17
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think if they show interest, the wait staff is amazing there.
51:22
SPEAKER_02: They know and they can share the information.
51:24
SPEAKER_02: But as I said earlier, people are there to eat.
51:27
SPEAKER_02: not to look at plates.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Right.
51:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, although maybe a little bit, uh, if I'm, if I'm doing it right.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: Um,
51:34
SPEAKER_02: the thing that people ask most about is the bone China,
51:38
SPEAKER_02: because for,
51:39
SPEAKER_02: for a couple of reasons,
51:40
SPEAKER_02: one of the reasons it's executed as a water glass,
51:42
SPEAKER_02: um,
51:44
SPEAKER_02: is that,
51:45
SPEAKER_02: um,
51:46
SPEAKER_02: it really represents the entire project conceptually.
51:49
SPEAKER_02: It has it all in that little white water glass.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, and, um,
51:55
SPEAKER_02: importantly,
51:55
the water glass is the one thing I make that stays with the
51:58
diner the entire meal,
52:01
SPEAKER_02: right?
52:01
SPEAKER_02: And never gets swept away and back to the kitchen.
52:04
SPEAKER_02: And if you think about it,
52:05
SPEAKER_02: if you're like me,
52:06
SPEAKER_02: you drink a lot of water when you eat,
52:08
SPEAKER_02: you're picking it up and putting it down.
52:10
SPEAKER_02: You're touching it.
52:11
SPEAKER_02: It's touching your lips.
52:12
There's a relationship with the water glass that none of the
52:15
other pieces I make or
52:17
SPEAKER_02: dishes just in general have.
52:19
SPEAKER_02: It's very intimate.
52:21
SPEAKER_02: And so I wanted that
52:24
I wanted the Bone China story to be told in the object that's
52:27
the most intimately
52:28
SPEAKER_02: connected to the diner.
52:30
And because of that,
52:31
I think most people ask,
52:32
when they ask about the work,
52:33
they ask about that.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, honestly, I think that's the best approach.
52:39
Like when the information is forced on you is when it becomes
52:44
overwhelming,
52:45
I think.
52:45
SPEAKER_01: But,
52:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:47
sometimes just a snippet of information and then the diner
52:50
becomes curious is the
52:52
SPEAKER_01: best way.
52:53
yeah I'm sure Blue Hill has a good approach to this I yes they
52:58
do and you know the
52:59
aesthetics there is it's just so beautiful um it's warm the
53:04
materials are warm it's
53:05
just a very beautiful place to to just physically be in um and
53:12
so um that also
53:14
SPEAKER_02: marries with my approach to making work I don't
53:17
SPEAKER_02: use glaze very often.
53:19
SPEAKER_02: And if I do, it's because the glaze has a meaning to it.
53:23
SPEAKER_02: The materials are typically brown or black or white or like rusty red.
53:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't use bright colors.
53:32
The idea isn't for the work to say like,
53:35
hey,
53:35
look at me,
53:35
look at me,
53:36
look at me.
53:37
It's to have this both conceptual,
53:41
yes,
53:41
but also aesthetic relationship with the food.
53:44
SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that I found I have
53:47
in common with my approach in the studio to Dan's approach in
53:50
the kitchen is that it's subtle.
53:53
SPEAKER_02: It takes a lot of technique to make something look simple.
54:00
SPEAKER_02: And I think we both do that.
54:03
SPEAKER_02: That we're not trying to show off techniques just because we know them.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's about the result.
54:11
And oftentimes you can understand what you're looking at or
54:15
what you're eating more
54:16
SPEAKER_02: clearly if it's simpler,
54:19
SPEAKER_02: but it,
54:19
SPEAKER_02: it takes a lot to make something.
54:21
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: It's harder to make something simple.
54:23
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, that connects with something I was thinking on it.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: This is the last thing I would like to ask you.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: I think we're running out of time, but, uh,
54:37
it's it's everything everything is so foundational like like
54:41
you were saying making
54:43
something simple is hard because I think it requires to really
54:47
get to the origin
54:49
your work is very historical it's it's it's literally
54:54
historical because it's
54:55
SPEAKER_00: geological so everything is foundational about it like
55:00
SPEAKER_00: The geological aspect of it, the aesthetics, but also nutritional wise.
55:07
And I was thinking it's sustenance in all these ways,
55:13
but it's also what is holding the fruit.
55:17
SPEAKER_00: It cannot be more foundational than that.
55:21
and i think that all is the same foundation seen through a
55:27
different category or a
55:29
different you know reading but it's historical it's just it's
55:33
like it connects us
55:35
with the origin and in time with you know i mean you know about
55:41
it i don't because
55:42
SPEAKER_00: i don't have background in geosciences but
55:45
That reminds me of my friend Kate Thomas,
55:48
who's a writer,
55:50
said about the work.
55:56
SPEAKER_02: Everybody knows you are what you eat, right?
55:59
SPEAKER_02: And she said, but you're also what you eat off of.
56:03
And when she was writing about my work,
56:05
and I thought that was just really beautiful.
56:06
SPEAKER_02: It does...
56:09
I often look to history as precedent and like to think and talk
56:14
about it through
56:15
SPEAKER_02: the work,
56:16
SPEAKER_02: the work as a whole,
56:17
SPEAKER_02: right?
56:18
So this body of work,
56:19
this collaboration with Dan is about 10 years and ongoing.
56:23
And maybe it's because I teach ceramics and part of my job is
56:28
to teach the history
56:28
SPEAKER_02: of ceramics as well,
56:30
but categorically the work really makes its way throughout
56:34
ceramic history from
56:37
SPEAKER_02: earthenware, which is the first type of clay, which is the farm casts.
56:41
SPEAKER_02: That's the category of work that I cast the farm.
56:44
They're made in earthenware because they're meant to be as
56:47
close to the earth as possible.
56:48
SPEAKER_02: There it is in the word earthen.
56:51
SPEAKER_02: To stoneware, there's a piece where I took a field stone from the farm
56:58
and brought it back to the studio and fired it and then
57:00
pulverized it and then
57:02
SPEAKER_02: milled it to a very fine liquid,
57:05
SPEAKER_02: sprayed it on stoneware and then fired it.
57:08
So it became a single stone glaze and it maybe that one stone
57:13
glazed about a
57:14
SPEAKER_02: hundred plates and then was gone.
57:15
SPEAKER_02: And it was an idea that emerged from eating Dan's butter,
57:19
SPEAKER_02: the single utter butter,
57:21
SPEAKER_02: butter made from a single cow.
57:23
SPEAKER_02: So it was like the material analog to this
57:25
Bodine approach to ingredient purity or maybe not purity is not
57:32
a good word,
57:33
SPEAKER_02: but like the locality of an ingredient.
57:37
SPEAKER_02: And so anyway, there's stoneware.
57:39
And then if we think like in terms of ceramic technology,
57:43
ultimately we get to porcelain.
57:44
SPEAKER_02: Of course, a lot of the work I make is porcelain.
57:46
And then a subcategory,
57:48
at least for ceramic historians,
57:49
of porcelain is bone china.
57:51
SPEAKER_02: And for me,
57:52
SPEAKER_02: the bone china really is very exciting because it's,
57:54
SPEAKER_02: yes,
57:54
SPEAKER_02: it's about history,
57:55
SPEAKER_02: as you said,
57:56
SPEAKER_02: Juliana,
57:56
SPEAKER_02: it's about 230 years old as a material.
57:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
58:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 1799, 230 years old as a material.
58:07
SPEAKER_02: But I also think because it's the only material that,
58:11
it's the only ceramic material that has something that was once
58:14
alive as part of
58:16
SPEAKER_02: its body,
58:19
SPEAKER_02: as part of its materiality,
58:20
SPEAKER_02: that for me,
58:22
SPEAKER_02: this grass-fed potent China project
58:25
feels like it's more about the future than it is about the
58:28
history of ceramics.
58:31
Because you can look at a material under a microscope and
58:34
understand something
58:35
SPEAKER_02: about the way we live on the earth,
58:38
SPEAKER_02: there's something very forward and almost hopeful about that,
58:45
SPEAKER_02: I think,
58:45
SPEAKER_02: in my work.
58:46
Whereas a lot of the other materials in earthenware and
58:49
stoneware and other porcelains,
58:51
SPEAKER_02: They're all geologically derived.
58:54
SPEAKER_02: And so they connect to a cultural history.
58:56
SPEAKER_02: And in bone China,
58:57
SPEAKER_02: yes,
58:57
SPEAKER_02: it's both a cultural history,
58:58
SPEAKER_02: but it's also an agricultural history that I think is being expressed.
59:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how to go about that in the future, right?
59:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, where does this lead, right?
59:10
SPEAKER_02: You know, I have a small studio.
59:11
It's not like I can scale up to something that is industrial,
59:16
and I don't think I'd want to.
59:19
SPEAKER_02: because what happens when you scale up?
59:21
Those are the challenges that I think the meat industry has had
59:24
to deal with and
59:26
SPEAKER_02: sometimes not so well.
59:28
SPEAKER_01: It's super fascinating.
59:29
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
59:30
SPEAKER_01: I have like a thousand questions I wanted to ask you,
59:32
SPEAKER_01: but one is,
59:35
SPEAKER_01: have you ever had like edible clay?
59:39
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's like Pepto-Bismol, I think.
59:42
SPEAKER_02: I think the clay-
59:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty sure there's clay as a, it settles your stomach.
59:49
SPEAKER_02: I know there are cultures that have eaten chunks of clay.
59:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's, that's where I was getting at.
59:52
SPEAKER_01: Like in Peru and like the Altiplano and Bolivia too,
59:55
SPEAKER_01: there's like,
59:56
SPEAKER_01: uh,
59:57
SPEAKER_01: there's clays because the,
59:58
SPEAKER_01: uh,
59:59
SPEAKER_01: the minerals in the clay,
1:00:01
SPEAKER_01: they nerve,
1:00:01
like you usually serve them with like potatoes with all these
1:00:04
like kind of bitter
1:00:05
SPEAKER_01: toxins in them and it kind of neutralizes them.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, you'd be really interested in because the potatoes, um,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: This is also not really out there yet because it's so new.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_02: But if I can,
1:00:21
one of the more recent projects that I'm working on is what I
1:00:25
call root vegetable
1:00:26
SPEAKER_02: geodes.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_02: So I take sunchokes and parsnips and celery yak from the farm,
1:00:34
SPEAKER_02: mix some clay in with farm soil and coat them.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_02: And then we bake them.
1:00:40
And I know this is a very common technique of clay-encrusted
1:00:44
vegetables baked.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_02: But then when they come out of the oven,
1:00:48
SPEAKER_02: I very carefully crack them in half like a geode,
1:00:51
SPEAKER_02: take out the now cooked vegetable,
1:00:53
SPEAKER_02: and then that becomes an ingredient.
1:00:55
Then I take those halves back to the studio and fire them to
1:00:58
become bowls to serve
1:01:00
SPEAKER_02: that food back in.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_02: It's really cool.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_01: But is it being cooked like that as well?
1:01:07
SPEAKER_01: Like to serve?
1:01:09
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's very much an experimental phase.
1:01:11
But I think this is a good example of that kind of reciprocity
1:01:17
in ideas and
1:01:18
SPEAKER_02: thinking because,
1:01:19
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:01:20
SPEAKER_02: it's like a sculpting technique or is it a cooking technique?
1:01:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, it's kind of both.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it's not new.
1:01:26
SPEAKER_02: I haven't invented that technique.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_02: People have been cooking that way for eons.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe not eons, but for some time.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_02: And,
1:01:35
but what I think is new is then turning those into vessels and
1:01:39
bringing them back
1:01:40
SPEAKER_02: to the table.
1:01:41
So how those get used and how those take shape,
1:01:45
still very much in progress.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_02: But for me,
1:01:48
it's really exciting because it's kind of this convergent
1:01:50
evolution of materials
1:01:52
SPEAKER_02: and ingredients.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_02: Like what's a material, what's an ingredient?
1:01:55
SPEAKER_02: You know?
1:01:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_02: And that's when you said edible clay, that got me thinking about that.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_01: No, it's just like, I can imagine
1:02:03
SPEAKER_01: somebody in the kitchen sculpting every night,
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:07
SPEAKER_01: sculpting,
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:02:09
they have to learn this technique of sculpting to bake the
1:02:13
ingredients somehow.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
1:02:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes, please.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm not definitely not up there every night.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_02: Every other month or so I travel up there.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:02:24
I was trying to find a picture,
1:02:26
and I don't remember if it's in your webpage or Instagram.
1:02:30
Is that the carrot with the green plate,
1:02:33
what you were describing,
1:02:35
or that's a different thing?
1:02:37
SPEAKER_02: There's a carrot?
1:02:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you were talking about roots.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if it's a carrot.
1:02:43
I'll look it up and ask you,
1:02:44
because now I'm curious if what I saw is what you just
1:02:48
described.
1:02:51
Actually,
1:02:52
the landing page of my website,
1:02:54
it's like a carousel of images.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_02: The root vegetables works in progress.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_00: So it is.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_00: It is.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_02: It's like a little teaser.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I have this.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it looks like a carrot, but it's a parsnip.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_00: It's a parsnip.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:09
SPEAKER_00: But that's the process you were describing.
1:03:11
SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
1:03:12
SPEAKER_00: That's that piece.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_02: Still very much a work in progress, but it's like...
1:03:21
SPEAKER_02: The next thing is always the most exciting thing.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_02: This is the next thing.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_00: What is material and what is food?
1:03:30
SPEAKER_01: Super cool.
1:03:32
SPEAKER_01: We could have you here all day, man.
1:03:34
SPEAKER_01: Maybe we could do it again.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_01: Sincere thank you for talking with us.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: It's been a real pleasure.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_02: These are the most fun conversations.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for having me.
1:03:49
SPEAKER_02: I had a wonderful time.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: Thank you everyone for listening.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_01: That was Greg Moore.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_01: Check out his...
1:03:58
SPEAKER_01: is Bone China at Blue Hill at Stone Barns.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_01: He'll eat off of that.
1:04:03
It's a pretty amazing thing,
1:04:05
and I think the way he does it is particularly special.
1:04:11
SPEAKER_01: And check out his work at Heirloom, his sign studio.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_01: And that's it.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_01: Subscribe to our newsletter, newworlder.com, or New Worlder on Substack.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_01: Thanks to my friend Pat Buzzard for providing the music.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_01: to everyone soon.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: Bye.