Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / In The Culture Wars, You'll Winsome & You'll Lose Some || SLP407

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In The Culture Wars, You'll Winsome & You'll Lose Some || SLP407 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Hello and welcome to episode 407 of the Speak Life Podcast.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_04: My name is Thomas Thoroughgood.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: We'll jump straight into the episode with Glenn, Paul, and Nate, and I will be joined by Paul at the end for some final thoughts.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_05: Good to have you guys back.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_05: It's been a few weeks, hasn't it, since we were well, we were all together.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I've I've been on a few different missions over the last uh month, but I've been in Northern Ireland, so yeah, in Colrain on the North Coast, lovely part of the world.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: And what what what were you doing there?
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously a mission, but so uh 12 churches together in Col Rain on the north coast of Ireland.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: They still remember the 1859 revival there.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we we had a mission that was less successful than the 1859 uh revival, but still very worth doing.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, saw people trusting in Jesus and yeah, it was a great time.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then I came back on the Monday uh to catch the end of Bible by the beach, which is kind of like kind of like Keswick on the south coast.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_05: But there's another conference coming up this weekend, is that right?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you all going on the theme of conferences.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there is there is uh the unbelievable conference, uh Unbelievable, uh, which was the sting that used to be used on the unbelievable podcast and radio show that Justin Briley hosts.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Unbelievable, uh, which is a brilliant, a brilliant impression.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you know what I'm talking about.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_05: But um and so all you guys are going, I think all the interns are going, and you you're going.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't get invited, but that's fine.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um would you like to go?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_05: Whatever.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_05: That's fine.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_05: But you're actually so people are going as delegates, right?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_05: But you're actually doing something up front, is that right?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Up front, uh, I'm speaking uh to the theme of God unmuted, but uh Justin Briley has given me the topic uh how do we transcend the culture wars?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: So uh very fractious, splintered political atmosphere.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, society is sort of coming apart at the seams, nobody knows who to trust.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: How do we engage with the culture wars?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And in particular, Justin's uh given me the topic of how to transcend the culture wars.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So already, as he put that out on Twitter, that's become controversial.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's become a kind of fodder for the culture wars.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Are we in a culture war?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: How do we engage the culture wars?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Is transcending the culture war even what we're meant to be doing?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we'll be getting into all that on Saturday, but we thought we'd do a dry run tonight.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_05: So you said that Justin's tweet about transcending the culture wars caused a bit of stir.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_05: Why is it caused a stir?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_05: Is that because people feel very strongly that we shouldn't be transcending them?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_05: We should be wading in, or how's it?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: We should be waging them, we should be starting the culture wars.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like we should be invading small sovereign nations next to us.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: We should be Putin online, basically.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Is um well, it's it's okay.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So Tim Keller, New York pastor in Manhattan, planted Redeemer Presbyterian Church in 1989, I think he began.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um in his front room and one of those stories, and and it grew to it's a congregation of about 5,000 these days and lots of different congregations across Manhattan.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, best-selling New York Times, best-selling author, and um he tweeted out about, oh, I don't know, two weeks ago on an um how we engage the culture and politics, and he mentioned the issue of abortion, and he was kind of talking about different ways of being pro-life, I think charitably to to read through the the the tweet thread.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: But um, it triggered a lot of people who saw him as kind of placating the left.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: And there have been quite a number of accusations about Tim Keller that he um he only nudges people to the left of him and he punches people to the right of him.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: And there are people who are saying, look, we live in a very polarized society in which people have the sense that the culture is out for Christians, and those on the left in particular are out for Christians, and you need to pick a side and you need to cut it with all the winsomeness, and instead, uh you need to engage the culture robustly.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the subtext, which is very rarely said out loud, but the subtext is you need to engage from the right in that discussion.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's rarely said, but it's it's more than implied, I think.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: If people if people are kind of complaining that he's only nudging left and punching right, we need to do a different thing, we need to wade wade into the culture wars, pick a side and fight for our survival sort of thing.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that tends to be what people have been saying over the last week or so online, and yeah.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then obviously the I think the the thread that you mentioned came out before the leak of the Supreme J uh court's ruling um on Roe versus Wade, and so that obviously has has uh reignited the conversation around abortion, and kind of off the back of that Keller's tweets and things have been sort of reassessed, I suppose.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a a guy by the name of I think it's James Wood or Woods, yeah, who uh then wrote an article on first things in which he said, Look, I'm a huge Tim Keller fan, have been for a very long time.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: My dog is named after him.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um, I think it's just Keller rather than Dr.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Timothy Keller, which is a strange name for a dog.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: But um, he said, Look, I feel as though um Keller was right for a time.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: This cultural engagement model was okay for a period of time, but the political moment has changed and we need a new operating system, or or we need a new way to engage with things, and so um thank you, Keller, but we need to move on.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And he talks about evolving past Tim Keller, um, which is an admission that because the political cultural movement has changed, we need to change too, which is interesting because I I think that's often the accusation that's laid at the door of you know liberal Christians, you know, that they are progressing with the times, they are being led by the cultural shifts, and and therefore it's yeah, it the shoes on the other foot at that stage, I think, if if the tactic now is being led by we're in what's being called a negative world rather than a neutral world.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's a reference to um Aaron Wren, who'd written similarly on this first things uh website, and he talks about these three stages that have taken place in the secularization of America.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he talks about the the positive world.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, think I didn't think he's using world as in the entire world, he's particularly thinking about the United States, and he says that pre-1994 American public life was positive towards Christianity generally between 1994 and 2014, he says we we stepped into the neutral world, and then since 2014 we've now flipped over into uh what he calls a negative world, and then he identifies this um sort of religious right movement, the moral majority, um, people like uh Jerry Forwell or Francis uh Schaefer, who were part of the American religious right through the 70s and 80s, and and who were kind of very kind of vocal about preserving a sense of Christian morality in America, he said that worked up to a certain point, and then it was kind of taken over by a Sika sensitive movement, so people still able to engage with the world around them, um, evangelize the the people in their communities, and then when we shifted into the neutral world, Keller and his model of cultural engagement obviously centered and focused in on Manhattan was the the thing for the times, but then things have shifted.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the fundamental question is have there been shifts?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is Aaron Wren correct when he identifies those as the the eras is one question, but are there shifts in culture which need to be taken seriously by the church as we think about engaging with the world around us?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the fundamental question for me.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because if he's right on that, then I think you've got this issue of okay, so how is is the church supposed to operate if the circumstances are different?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: But it's also a sense of like what's what is our horizon?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: What's what's the sort of the time scale we're working on?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um because I think David French in his sort of Sunday article um sort of spoke about the early church and you know the the world of the New Testament, in which pretty negative, you know.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and when Nero was you know lighting up Christians as part of the entertainment at his parties, um, that's quite the negative world.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And yet Paul still writes Romans 12 to them and and and says, you know, vengeance is the Lord, he will repay, and and let's you know re repay evil with good.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um so I don't know, I find it, I find it odd to think just narrowly in terms of well, since since Trump, the world is like this, and you're like, Well, I don't know, since the year of our Lord, you know, 2022 years ago, I think those are the kind of epochs we need to be speaking in.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we we don't live in as negative a world as, for instance, Peter was in when he wrote one Peter.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, he he was not talking about joining the culture wars of his day, he was he was talking about something quite different in terms of you know, we are the priesthood, we are the royal priesthood, we are the chosen nation.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Let's build church as this alternative counterculture, which again, which you know sounds a lot like Tim Keller, which is okay, the it's it's a third-way thing, which is not halfway between left and right, it's above, it's off to the side, it's it's a weird thing.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I just I just fear that with so many, you know, you you can you can take issue with some of the things Tim Keller has tweeted recently, and I I do, but to then use that as the occasion for saying, okay, let let us now abandon the the the option of a third way.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Let us now abandon um trying to be a distinct counterculture and let us throw our you know our lot in with one side, I think that would be a big mistake.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if we I suppose one that the one that the great thing, and we'll come back to this, I'm sure, as you unpack for us what you've called the Abram option.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um one great thing is that clearly scripture speaks to us throughout the ages and around the world.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is there is the the word of the Lord that stands even though everything changes and the shifting shadows.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: However, there is clearly a very distinctive, there is a great distinction between the early church before Constantine, after Constantine, the church around the world, and America as this slightly exceptional country which is founded on all sorts of you know vaguely sort of Christian um principles, although you've got obviously separate separation of church and state, and then the cultural shifts that happen within America itself.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I suppose the the challenge is trying to say, well, what is the wisdom, the scriptural wisdom we need which is going to see us through all those different stages and all those different approaches?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I another question is what is the issue for Christians in the public square as public servants, as those who are involved in journalism or other forms of media or or politics themselves?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And what's the role of the church as as the church and those kind of questions?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And another another shift, I think, in history is um the shift towards democracy, in which all of us are enfranchised, we all get a a say.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, you know, nobody was electing Nero as as Caesar.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and yet we do get a say in in who rules over us.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a there's a duty as a citizen to participate in decision making at that level.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we've all been drawn into the political arena in a way that the early church wasn't.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: But also social media has drawn us in.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's not compulsory, yeah, on Twitter.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the dopamine rush is huge.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: So we're we are all now, if you're on social media, we're we're all like setting out our platform and uh and yeah, giving our little press conferences on a daily basis.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: And we're we're all now feeling like we've got to contribute at that level of political discourse, which I think is very unhealthy.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe before we get on to the the the Abram option, and there's a little video for us to watch, I think, on that.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: But thinking about the impact of social media and um another you know fantastic article uh from Jonathan Height uh looking at uh forget the exact title again, but it's looking at the impact of social media decisions that were made in the 2010s.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an absolutely fabulous article because he takes the Tower of Babel and he he says when you look at what happens in the aftermath of the Tower of Babel, is that the people are are sort of confused and separated and unable to communicate, and that the Lord's doing because they've attempted to create this this single sort of place to build this tower to heaven, and so the law comes down and confuses their plans.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: He says that that decisions that were made by social media giants in the 2010s have created this sense of absolute disintegration and inability to understand one another, the inability to to communicate, and algorithms which reward outrage and and and encourage polarization.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and the you know the gathering of all sorts of complex issues into one single side.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so you sign up for one, you sign up for them all.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll show you the worst example of your opponents, you know.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and of course, like you know, Jonathan Height's very good at talking about our confirmation bias.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: We will let slide all the worst examples on our own side, and we will fixate entirely on the worst examples of the other side.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so that polarization just happens all the time.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's really unhealthy.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it is it is all for the outrage clicks.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and so I I think part of our strategy for for engaging the world will increasingly involve detaching from the outrage machine and and just talking to our neighbors again, because you know, my my neighbor knows nothing about any of this stuff and is dealing with issues that are at a very familial local level.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I think again, you know, local church really is the hope for the world.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think I think there is an an increased opportunity for that as people have tried to invest in the detached kind of global, you know, we've gotten upset about things that are happening a world away in a in a place where we'll never visit.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we've gotten very upset about that.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't know the names of our neighbors, you know.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think there's an opportunity for churches to kind of become more those local, embodied, healthier communities, um, that are just you know, because Twitter is not real life and and real life is is worth engaging with.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_05: That Jonathan Hyde article was why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_05: We pop that down in the comments for people to have a look at.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_05: It's from the on theatlantic.com is where it was.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um Nate mentioned then this Abraham or Abram option.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: I said Abraham and I got in trouble with Glenn.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: He said no, it's Abram.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh of Abraham.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_05: Aleph, it's Trump G and then what do we mean by this then?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Should we have a look at a video where I basically unpack uh for two minutes what happens in Genesis 14?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to navigate through the culture wars, of course, the first place you turn is Genesis 14.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: So should we should we have a look at that video and then I'll try to explain some more?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Here is the setting for Genesis 14.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is the Mediterranean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we've got the med, the red, and the dead.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Up here would be modern-day Turkey, then Iraq, Iran, the Arabian Peninsula, Egypt, and the Promised Land of Canaan.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: The first thing we hear is of kings of the north.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: The king of China, of Alaska, then there's King Ketalam of Elam, he's the Big Daddy, and the King of Goyim.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: They move down under the leadership of Ketalama to oppress the five kings gathered around the Dead Sea.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's Sodom, Gomorrah, Adma, Zavoyim, and Zola.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's four kings versus five kings.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is the first time that kings are mentioned in the Bible, and the first time war is mentioned, and those two things are very much linked.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Kings are powers, and these powers clash.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's not goodies versus baddies here, it's just power versus power.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now, after twelve years, the five kings rebel against the four kings, but their rebellion is unsuccessful, and the four kings carry off the people and the goodies of the five kings, including Lotus, who is now living in Scotland.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: But then we learn about Abram.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: He is not called a king, he's not interested in cities and wars and power plays, even though his household contains thousands, and even raises up an army at short numbers.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Abram is different.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: He comes up out of Egypt in order to live in tents, not in cities, because he is looking forward to a city with foundations which make and build his god.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Abram is called a Hebrew, which means one from beyond.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: He raises an army of 318 soldiers from his household.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: He runs off the four kings from the land, he retrieves life and his whole household, he brings everyone back to the only king that brings peace.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: That is Melchizedek, which means king of peace.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not about the four kings or the five kings.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about cities or worldly power plays, it's about being a true Hebrew, someone from beyond, who builds up the household of faith and points the whole world to the king of peace.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: So there it is, Genesis 14.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, so it's the first time that the Bible mentions kings, and it's the first time that the Bible mentions war, and those two things are very linked.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's the first time the Bible mentions the word Hebrew, which is what Avram is.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: He is a he is a Hebrew, he is one from beyond, and it's what foreigners used to call the Israelites because they were from beyond the river.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so um the nations looked on at Israel and just said, they are out of this world.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: They are like, where are these guys from?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: They are from beyond, they are these Hebrews, and and Abraham is doing sorry, Abraham, Avram is doing something.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just call him Abraham.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Abe.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: He is doing something so different.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: He is he is pitching his tent, he's not investing in the city because he's according to Hebrews 11, looking towards the city with foundations whose maker and builder is God, and he's just dealing with the household of faith while the kings are dealing with their cities and their warfare.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Now, he does engage with the culture, and he engages with the culture when Lot is in trouble.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so when when the family is about to be taken down, then Abraham, let's call him Abraham, picks aside, and okay, in this season, he stands shoulder to shoulder with the king of Sodom and those other five kings against the four kings, and he manages to raise an army of 318 soldiers.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that that makes you see that his household is thousands strong.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: He could have called himself a king, but he's not into that.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: He could have built a city, he's not into that, but he does raise a household that can handle itself in the battles of this world with the 318.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: He runs them off the land, he reclaims lots, but instantly he likes drops the king of Sodom, and instantly he's just not interested in the king of Sodom.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: He wants to bring those kings towards Melchizedek, who is the king of peace, who brings out bread and wine.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this so there's there's one king who is a king of peace, Melchizedek, who I think is the pre incarnate Christ, who is also a type of Christ.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: We can get into that another day, but but here is this king of peace, your one shot at peace, who actually has a feast rather than is engaging in the warfare.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And instantly, Abraham does not want to be made rich by Sodom, um, and he doesn't want to make them rich.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: He Don't want to depend on them, he doesn't want to be dependent upon them.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so and so this is kind of a model that in a brief instant, for some reasons, you can engage with the wars that are raging.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and actually, you should be training up your family of faith to be able to do that, but don't don't make alliances with the five kings or the four kings.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then in Genesis 15, it's fascinating that um Abraham having he's got the spoil from this victory, but he's downcast because he has no seed, and then the word of the Lord comes and says, I'll give you, you know, seed like the stars in the heavens.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: And he believes the Lord that the Lord will bring about a massive household of faith, and it's counted to him as righteousness.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then he goes into a sleep, and the Lord tells him, Look, the seed of Abraham, your seed, will go down into Egypt and come back up again, and it will, you know, it will take over the world, it will have great plunder in that.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so he's not told at that point, fight against the Egyptians when they come after you.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: He is promised, you know, centuries of suffering and then glory, because he's going to go the way of Jesus, the way of the cross.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I I think Genesis 14 and 15 are a fascinating kind of test case in what the family of faith is meant to do.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: And they are meant to not simply take a side in the wars that are raging.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it is necessary for them to fight, and they and he does that on that one-off basis.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: He then detaches himself and wants to bring everything towards the King of Peace.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the Abraham Ocean.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds a bit like the Kenny Rogers song, okay.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: Coward of the County.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know that one?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know that one?
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not familiar.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Can you sing a little bit for us?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not I'm not a great singer, but um, yeah, so the the refrain is you don't have to fight to be a man.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's all the way through in the chorus.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, after this coward of the county's beloved has been taken over by the I can't remember what the what who these terrible men are, but they come and attack.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh the final refrain is sometimes you have to fight to be a man.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's this kind of son having you know, sort of speaking to his father about you know, this when it's when is it right to fight, you know, how do you know when to do it?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I th I think your point about your this is a temporary alliance made at a particular time because you have to do that, but you're not losing sight of that primary goal, which is to build the household of faith and to bring people to the King of Peace.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I I think it's it's a very compelling approach, and I suppose it reminds me a little bit of, and it'd be good to hear you kind of talk through the differences here, but it reminds me a little bit of a book that came out, I think it was about 2016 by Rod Dreher called The Benedict Option.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um do you want to just tell us?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So as far as I can tell, that was about creating within the household of faith institutions which would be be marked as Christian, um, and for those to sort of provide um a place within which the household of faith can be developed and nurtured and and educated and grown.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost a it's not quite a state within the state, but it it's it's allowing the church to to develop the institutions which it has a great history of doing within the west already, because those institutions have maybe been lost to a kind of secular uh a secular army.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um how is the Avram option um a different a different way would you think than than the Benedict option?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of overlap, and you know, I've chosen the the option language as a as an homage to Rodrea, who is um Eastern Orthodox.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so he's he's going back to Saint Benedict, who kind of founded the monastery, the monastic movements, and and really, you know, that was a a response to cultural collapse in 410.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: The Visigoths kind of sack Rome and it's the end of everything.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Augustine pens the the city of God, and obviously there's the Augustinian orders of monks as well.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: So um there is that that movement to withdraw from the city, and originally, you know, it's to go out into the wilderness um and to be alone.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: The monocos uh were those who are alone, and they they became known as the as the monks over time.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: They end up going back into and and forming these communes and and having a kind of a rule uh like the rule of St.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Benedict, and they they end up forming these communities that end up having hospitals and showing great, you know, great care and charity towards the communities.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's uh it's interesting.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Andy Crouch was noticing, um, he's a sort of cultural commentator and exceptional author.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: He said um from the Protestant side of things, he noticed how lots of people were sort of dunking on Rod Dre's Benedict Option um as a kind of a retreat, a cultural retreat from the Great Commission.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and he said, Well, it's interesting that like the great majority of the Benedict Option as a book is trying to convince you that um there's something like the fall of Rome in 410 has happened, that the that there is a cultural collapse that is happening, and um and he's right about that, isn't he?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: says Andy Crouch.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: What what are we going to do about that?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it is interesting about you know time frames and different different tactics depending on different time frames.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I think I think where I differ from Rod Dre is I think the more Eastern Orthodox sense of missiology um is to say the mission of God is the church.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so let the church simply be the church, and that is the mission of God.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: And in a sense, I I disagree with that only in terms of emphasis, um, because I think the church is the mission of God, but in a much more sort of evangelical sense, that um the the mission of God that the the church is inherently missional, and that in order to be this household of faith together, we are constantly pointing the kings of you know Sodom and Gomorrah and Zoar, and we're constantly pointing them to the great high priest, Melchizedek.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that there that there is um there is a very much an evangelistic thrust to this, which I I don't think Rodrera would massively disagree with, but I I think the evangelical sense of missiology is that church is missional, whereas I think his more orthodox sense is that the mission is the church kind of thing.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: You might end up getting to the same place, actually, um, by pursuing both both those kinds of visions.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: But I I would I would still say it's it's still an outgoing thing, the Abraham option, because you're still pointing to the to the great Melchizedek.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's just you're pointing to him in quite a different way to the ways in which the four kings and the five kings are engaging.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um you're not waging a uh a culture war, you're building a counterculture.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_04: This conversation went out live on our YouTube channel.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: You can watch it and all our other conversations at youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_04: We're on the other social media platforms, just search for Speak Life UK.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: That will keep you posted.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_04: And why not join us when we next go live?
• 30:11
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• 30:17
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• 30:22
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• 30:31
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• 30:39
  SPEAKER_05: Let's get back to the podcast.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_05: Do we want to have a look at some of the comments that people have been chipping in with?
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Tom Claus said a pretty funny one.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: He said, When I get into culture stuff, I wonder if I end up sounding like a Christian Alan Partridge.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: That suggests what would that sound like it suggests that Alan Partridge isn't Christian.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I think uh Glenn's book would reveal that you can't have Alan Partridge without the without Jesus' revolution.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_05: Alan said he was on God's side.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_05: I hate the devil, it's bang out of order.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Alan would identify as a Christian, don't you think?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Undoubtedly.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm sure he was baptized in Norwich somewhere.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that's that's what he would say.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Charles Ray McNinch had a few good ones.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: This one in particular, he said Christianity is relational, and so is being human.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's way less complicated than we think.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: To bloom where we are planted is to be ethical and principled in relationship to a proper understanding of who Jesus is and what we accompl of and what he accomplished in history.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Charles Ray McMinch.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good phrase, isn't it?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Bloom where you're planted.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um but what if you're planted on Twitter and you have to engage with all of the things that people are saying all over the world.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Except you read it.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: All of the time.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: You just don't.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: You don't, you know, there's that video that that you and I made, Paul, from uh from years ago, like three three top tips of how they how to engage with social media.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: And uh no number one was you don't need to post something, you just don't, you don't need to comment.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just don't post, just don't post anything, yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then put somewhere in your bio that you're Christian and then don't be a jerk.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Follower of the way.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Follower of the way.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Part one to the nether.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: So here's the question: what about the formative influence?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you're not posting, even if you've got somewhere in your bio that you're a Christian, even if you're not actively being a jerk, if you are consuming so much stuff, which is just saying the left, the right, the left, the right, the left, the right, you're actually being formed and trained in those that that binary of every issue must be must be a war issue.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where even people who aren't who aren't engaging with things online, we are consuming it and therefore we're being formed by it.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um which means if I get you know half an hour of a sermon on a Sunday, that's one kind of formation.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: But if if my feed is just full of, you know, the owning the libs, you know, or you know the you know the horrors of the of the right, it's it's just it's not good for your soul.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and therefore, you know, to use the horticultural kind of analogy, you do need to do some weeding outs and some muting and some unfollowing.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: And there are there are there are lots of great people to follow online.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: There they really are.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's there's there's lots of spiritual nourishment and encouragement that's being offered online.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you've got to be so discerning, and I think you've got to do a lot of weeding.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_05: Any other comments you want to point us to, or if you can ever know?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Charles Ray McNech had a few other ones.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, when he was talking about you guys were talking about the role of the church earlier, he said the role of the church is that of the new humanity, quote unquote, sharing the gospel correctly, which is primarily historically baptizing and loving others according to the Jesus model is the plan until Christ returns in every generation.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: The new humanity, and and exactly.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think you know, Tim Keller's whole thing was the the prodigal god, you know, that's his sort of classic work in terms of you know, humanity leans towards either younger brotherish kind of humanity or elder brotherish kind of humanity.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um and Christ is the new humanity, you know, he's the father who's not like the elder brother, and he's not like the younger brother.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and I think that's that is so helpful.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: What's also been pointed out is that you know, the these days the left is not simply a younger brother wanting license.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: The the left is also very censorious and authoritarian.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so you know, some of that model is a much more messy thing than it had been in the past.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: And yet the point still remains that there is a third kind of there is a third way.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: There is an another kind of humanity that is not like the left and it's not like the right.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: And we need to we need to really cultivate that and and work on this counterculture.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing um I'd really love to say is I think some of this debate that's happening online is on whether we should be winsome or not.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think absolutely we should be Christian online.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: And none of what what we say and none of the the heat of the cultural moment excuses unchristian behavior, but that does not mean that we can't be forthright.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't mean that it that at times we might provoke backlash and um and very um uh very negative reactions.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um but so it's not it's not really about and I don't think Tim Keller is is saying that we need to be winsome all the time, i.e., we need to make friends with all people all the time.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that um I think when we offer critique of one side, we also ought to offer critique of our side, let's say, or those who are closest to us.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think it's on the on the kind of the model of 1 Peter 4 verse 17 that judgment begins with the household of God, and Peter is picking up this massive biblical theme in which the prophets are always pointing at the nations, and they're saying Assyria is terrible and Moab is dreadful and Philistia is awful, and we are the worst.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And what I what I would hate to see is that we don't want the winsomeness of Tim Keller, and so we just go to oracles against other nations.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying, hey, enough of the oracles, guys, let's just be kind to each other.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: What I want to see is if you're going to offer oracles against the other side, will you also offer oracles against those who are closer to you?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I think there's plenty of blame to go around left and right.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it's not it's not about being it's not about being winsome, it's not about being just kind.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think you can be robust.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think Abraham raised 318 soldiers who could really handle themselves.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's just being being aware that if you if you happen to lean left, there are plenty of people on your own side that you can call out.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if you happen to lean right, there are plenty of people on your own side who you can call out if that's what you want to do.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Ultimately, what you want to do is is look up and point people to the king of peace.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not it's not just about being a pacifist, it's not just being about being a neutral.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't believe in spiritual neutrality.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that that's why it's not about simply retreating to a safe space, it's about building a household of faith and trusting that God will make our family of faith like the stars in the in the sky.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and so we don't need to engage out of fear and out of anxiety.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I just see a lot of people engaging out of fear, you know.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: To to engage out of fear is really to take the side of those who you are fearing.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we're called beyond that.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: We're called to we're called to look to the promises of God.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: And Jesus was absolutely not anxious about the success of his movement.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: He was just like like yeast working through a batch of dough, it will happen.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like a mustard seed that's going to be the greatest plant on earth, it'll happen.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: The church will grow and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's not engage out of a out of a sense of pearl clutching or out of a sense of deep and profound anxiety about the success of the Jesus movement, because that is not in doubt.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_05: Mikey, did you want to throw it?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a few more that might be of uh of interest.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Patricia Mooney is pointing us towards Acts 1711.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: Does anyone know that by heart?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: I got it here.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_05: Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that's Paul kind of opening himself up to critique um from the scriptures.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: So the the apostle who wrote half the New Testament is like, yeah, just test what I say, test what I say against the scriptures.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so you know, let none of us say, Well, if Tim Keller said it must be true.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Or whoever your spiritual you know acolyte might be, you know.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and actually that's a really interesting thing to what if what if in your engagement on any of these issues um it ends up in a Bible study and it doesn't end up in a I would just throw some verses in and use a whole bunch of other stuff, but we say no, but okay, you you mention a verse, okay, let's sit down and look at that because um that's where wisdom is found.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not just found in in sort of vague cultural comment or engagement.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: Patricia has followed up with her own comment.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: Micah, what does she say?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she says, I don't think we can afford to have any quote unquote gurus, basically celebrity preachers and authors who are trusted because of who they are.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Take what is Acts 17 11.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Compliant, throw away the rest of their commentaries.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely, and and yeah, I don't think Tim Keller or or any of the people we've we've spoken about would uh would disagree with that.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, with with Bibles open, let's receive what we can receive and and uh let's test test it all.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think she's saying the only people who've written commentaries on acts.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think she's saying we should made the whole Bible.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do we have time for one more?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Joe Byrne basically sums up maybe his experience of what we're talking about here because uh says I saw an interesting post the other day that summed up the culture wars about historical or lefty Jesus versus colonizer, right-leaning Jesus.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: What was interesting is that both had things that were just plain wrong, others that were trying to make things about Jesus mutually exclusive that just aren't.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and the culture wars are thoroughly theological, completely theological.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and there is the sense that on left and right we are just hurling Bible verses at one another, we've just forgotten the references.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: So that even even um positions that are taken that are diametrically opposed to what the Bible would advocate, people have to advance those positions in Christian garb.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they've got to paint sin in virtues colors, and the virtue that those sins are painted in are very Christian in the way, in the ways that they're kind of presented.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, we we live in the world that Jesus built, and we are responsible for the culture wars, right?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's we've exported them to the world.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: So like we can't we can't complain.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: We we are the ones who are most fiery in our condemnations of of the heretic and the blasphemer, and we excommunicate people and we we start on it.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the the world is carrying it on by political means.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's really helpful to see how very how very Jesus-ish both the left and the right is, even if you disagree with you know what they're saying.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: So on something like the pro-life issue, um, I I think I I am 1000% pro-life.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: I find it fascinating that the pro-choice argument has to be put forward in terms of healthcare, female empowerment, bodily autonomy, right?
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: The the equalization of the sexes, reproductive justice.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: All those things are like fundamentally have all those notions and all those highest values that people have have fundamentally been given to us by the Jesus Revolution.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the there is something that the pro-choice advocate is tapping into that is trying to present things in terms of some very Christian-ish values.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, they're forgetting the the humanity of the unborn and failing to accord those rights and that justice to the unborn.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: But even as we do something uh as abhorrent as killing uh a million babies a week in the womb, we these days do it for the sake of compassion.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Or we we we present it as a compassionate thing, which and that's that's sort of Christianity kind of infecting all the culture wars, yeah.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_05: Guys, what Lots of helpful things there.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_05: Hopefully, people at home have found that uh useful as well.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_05: Do keep commenting down below.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_05: Um, even if you're watching this after the event, uh let us know what you think, and we might pick up on that again next week um when we look at the comments.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_05: Um Nate, do you want to tell us a little bit about the Foundry and what the Foundry is?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the Foundry is the Sweet Life School of Creative Evangelism, and we basically have developed it so that we can train people um in engaging with a theology for life and mission and engaging with um the stories to win the world, uh, helping people think through exactly the kind of issues that we're we're discussing on the speakeasy, um, but also looking deeply into uh into the stories that are being told and and how how to engage with those and how to to study those as Christians and to to to point to the the true story, the actual story.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got the the foundry, there are three parts to it.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: There is the year out, which is where you come down for 10 months to e-spawn and uh help us run this, and uh remember to turn Nate's mic on.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um because Nate can't do it.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: I just can't be trusted to do it myself.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so helping us with that and and helping us sort of get this this show on the road.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the year out.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: We also have the foundry unlocked, which is an opportunity um on Fridays for people to mostly zoom in so they can join us online and to think through the the things that I sort of mentioned theology for life and mission and uh stories to win the world.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh the foundry intensives, which are a real highlight um every term that we do them.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: So four times a year we have people come to the Speak Life Studios uh to come here um and to get using the microphones and the lights and the cameras and and think about how how we communicate.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Whether we're we're we're preachers or we're sort of running communications and media for a church or we're involved, just interested in these things.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_05: What is is there a deadline anymore?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just come.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just hurry.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: Hurry now while stocks last.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_05: And how can people apply for this, Glenn?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they can go to speaklifefoundry.com.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's speaklifefoundry.com.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_05: Great guys, thanks so much for the conversation tonight.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it's been really good.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_05: Hope you folks at home have enjoyed it.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_04: Well, there we go.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_04: I'm joined by one of the three suspects from that conversation, Paul Feasy.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_04: Hello.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_04: Hello.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_04: So we now have some final musings.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's some final musings.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: So, Paul, it's been 18 hours as usual since you recorded that.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, now that you've slept on it, do you have any anything to add?
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_05: I suppose the question maybe uh we didn't really get to think about is is how do you know when to dive in?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_05: There may be issues where you say it's just something that society is working its way through.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_05: We're just to keep being the church in the middle of it, we don't need to jump actively into the political campaigning side of things, keep out of it, um, just be the church, be a witness in that way.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_05: That might be exactly the right thing.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_05: But then there might be things, and abortion might be one of those things because it is so so kind of um you know overwhelming and horrifying that you say that's not the right thing to do.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, that's that's really helpful just to kind of lay that out though.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_04: And but whatever we do, kind of entering into it in that weird Christian way where we're not just ignoring issues that our world's facing, but equally not b because someone agrees with us on a particular issue that we just jump in with both feet on everything they stand for.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's that it's that balance, isn't it?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and even if you jump in with even if you side with a certain group, maybe of certain things, you hopefully the Christian way of arguing maybe the same things will look different as well.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_05: So we shouldn't be using the same tactics, you know.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_05: But particularly, I guess, when you look at discussions around a lot a lot of issues online in politics, it's very polarized.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_05: You know, if you um if you disagree with me, then you're worse than Hitler, you're just the worst person in humanity.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and possibly it's it might be possible to disagree with someone over it and not just call them fascist Nazis in the process, you know.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_05: It may be that there's another way.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_04: Are you suggesting a civil conversation?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_05: Don't be ridiculous, it's on the internet, yeah.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm kind of of the opinion that if you just share Jesus in all you do and and bring Jesus to more people and share Jesus in all sorts of areas, um that that is a good thing.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah, absolutely because ultimately, how is it that people are going to get behind our views on abortion and sexuality and stuff?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_05: It's not just by accepting them as arbitrary ethics, it's by Yeah, and there's a there's a danger in some Christian with with when Christians have a zeal to be involved in politics to sort of legislate Christian morality into the world.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_05: And like, whilst that may not necessarily always be a bad thing, it might be a very good thing, um, you could legislate all the Christian morality you like into law and still nobody would be a Christian off the back of it necessarily.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like, well, thank you for listening to me, Paul, and thank you, listener, for listening to us.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, well, hopefully it's been helpful.