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1-800-1776: The Shot Heard Round the World · 1-800-1800

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: ring ring hello is this 1776 oui oui bonjour just kidding that would be if
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: the french won you are too funny yeah i'm looking
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: for america this is she baby god bless hello you reached 1-800-1800 1-800-1800 i
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: have a burning question 1-800-1800
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: i have a burning question welcome to 1 -800 -1800 welcome
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: to one 800 1776 yeah we are specializing
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: in the very long 19th century and we often do begin our 19th centry with 1776
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: my name is mabel and my name is madeline we are the founders of mandylion press
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: and this is the best podcast in the entire world and it's
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: a very special episode it's really special because 1776 occurred 250 years ago it
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: and honestly you i won't name names but somebody is sort of fucking up
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: the um celebration this year and
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: and and we're gonna try to save it yeah we are giving you
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: the semi-quincentennial experience that you deserve and for people you didn't ask
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: for it should have come a while ago um but for those who are not familiar with
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: the term semi-quin let's break it down mathematically speaking quince means five
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: damn
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: and so quincentennial is 500 years so semi-quincentennial is half that
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: which is 250 years and so you might hear us use the phrase
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: the semi-quin semi-quincentennial today that's what
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: that means we should have gotten quince
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: to sponsor this we could still ask them i think well i wanted to come out
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: before july 4 so they have
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: to be really fast i think they're very responsive their shipping is pretty quick
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: okay we'll be in touch okay
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: so yeah that's what we're going to do today madeline's going to tell me about
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: the history of our country and i'm happy too because i love america as a concept and
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: that is how i will be talking about her today and i will be ignoring the america
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: that i don't like which is
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: the lived physical reality okay did you learn anything this week yeah i decided to
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: that i'm going to change what i learned this week to um instead of discussing
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: if you didn't say anything i know i just think it's important to acknowledge
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: that i was going to speak about history and then i thought why don't i speak about
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: the two and a half hour podcast about the alex cooper alex earl drama
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: that i listened to on my drive home from maine on sunday with my mother
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: okay it i listened to the episode of diabolical lies which is um caro claire burke
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: and katie gotty tassen's podcast which i had never listened to but
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: then i saw they had this episode and thought i'd listen are you following along with
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: the alex cooper alex earl drama no no well i think it's interesting because it's
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: about the industry that we are also in podcasting yeah yeah
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: and really a podcast sorry like this is how much i don't know i thought she was
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: an influencer well she is an influencer and then alex cooper signed her
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: to her network unwell
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: and signed her up to have a podcast called hot mess
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: which rumor has it wasn't very good but also maybe something else happened between
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: the girls and the women i should say sexually or what no like i think basically
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: the whole drama is about like who is a mean girl and who is a girl's girl that is
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: the drama i have i've had enough of that conversation these archetypes are
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: so inaccessible it's
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: the new virgin horror it's like women contain multitudes like let them be
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: and that's what
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: the diabolical lies ladies were saying was like basically alex cooper
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: in particular is being like exposed quote unquote for the potential like hypocrisy
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: of her brand which is that she like has she is a woman but then also is like all
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: a business person who wants to make money
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: and yeah they're like that's not hypocrisy that's just like called being
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: a person yeah um and she does have some kind of politic loosely
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: but also she's made it pretty clear that like she's here to be rich and famous and
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: so sometimes when you want to be rich and famous it comes at
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: a human cost i'm also just like sometimes you're a girl's girl
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: and sometimes you're one of the boys like also being a girl's girl is being mean
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: from my experience i agree like
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: i'm just like for example like sometimes if someone has one of my guy friends has
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: a new girlfriend and i'm not as welcoming as i could have been then i'm
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: a pick me i was just gonna say you're being a pick me but like actually i just have
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: an existing relationship with someone and i'm not comfortable with this new person
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: and i'm not nice to my boyfriend girls girl i know it's like it's just all like
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: so ridiculous yeah but
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: i don't see gender you don't i see people i've known and people who are strangers
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: who i don't have to be nice to for years for years and years and years until
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: the wedding day and then i turn a corner i'm like even then they still have
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: to prove themselves
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: nobody ever doesn't have to prove themselves to me but so in the podcast
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: that i listened to they were referencing often dave portnoy who's the founder
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: of barstool sports who figures in alex cooper are not married to each other no
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: like mommy and daddy are not together no dave portnoy was alex cooper's boss
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: when she first launched call her daddy with sophia franklin before
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: the famous falling out and it was the like conflict contractual conflict
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: with barstool that sort of created the falling out and propelled alex cooper
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: to this next stratosphere of fame and dave portnoy has a new memoir
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: that just was published yesterday i think can't wait to read that do you want
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: to know the title
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: no it's called cancel me if you can
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: which i actually think is amazing i'm like i don't even like the idea that
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: that guy's interesting enough to cancel is like crazy yeah i mean he lays it all out
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: on the table pretty pretty up front sports betting and liking boobs
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: no he's like a real asshole like he'll he chases after all conflict
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: and controversy he says he talks shit about everybody something funny i learned from
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: the podcast which i didn't know he had done when
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: the call her daddy girls were like refusing to sign a new contract he just took
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: over their rss feed and released an hour-long episode where he just talked shit
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: about them on the call her daddy rss feed which i thought to sign
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: a new contract yeah and it worked kind of but also
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: that's not how we're running our version of barstool isn't it shocking
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: that we could either of us do that at any time um
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: but yeah i actually don't think i could i think only you could well you can post
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: this podcast episode well that's true i guess i could divert our feed
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: yeah like i think i know how to change the settings maybe better
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: than you do i was thinking about that recently i was like if we have
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: a falling out like you get everything well my mom and i were listening
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: to this podcast and she was like can you imagine if you
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: and madeline also had like 10 million listeners and
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: a million dollar contract people share the podcast with your friends yeah we're
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: about 999 000
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: short of where i think we ought to be also the crazy thing about call her daddy was
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: that within four episodes they were having like two million downloads a week just
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: to talk about how to give good blowjobs i know they also one of the women on
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: the podcast i listened to made an interesting interpretation which i hadn't thought
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: about which was like comparing alex cooper
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: to kim kardashian basically being like call her daddy was porn and was a sex tape
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: yeah but I feel like it was a porn and a sex tape in a way that was like acceptable
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: for women also to like like talk about and be like participants in yeah
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: which made it more palatable knowing very little it's like isn't the thing
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: that they would like talk really explicitly about their sex lives
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: and their dating lives yeah and they were playing clips of the old call her daddy
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: which I've never actually listened to and it was very vulgar not for me
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: no you're not the right type of woman i like when they interview kamala harris was
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: that interesting how does kamala harris give blowjobs she doesn't mention it i think
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: in the episode but i think we could all use our imaginations on
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: that front anyway yeah what did you learn this week
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: well i'm the reason that i've twisted my ankle is because i was being
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: a just perfect hostess and i stepped for you might even say and i was rushing around
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: because all these boys are staying at my house pick me alert and i i
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: they wanted to go swimming at night and i was trying to turn the lights on
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: because i thought it might be dangerous if it was dark
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: and people might hurt themselves and what's the point of this anyway one
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: of those boys my friend colton who uh is also doing a pg art history
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: and is writing his dissertation about like all these invasive species and things
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: and told me that delta airlines
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: which is my preferred airline founded you wouldn't believe to as
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: a crop dusting company to combat the boll weevil infestation in
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: the mississippi delta and save the cotton crops we that's so funny
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: because i was my original what i learned this week was about
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: the boll weevil what was it
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: well we gotta get that guy on here to talk about the bull weevil he has so much
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: to say well that's so interesting because basically i think i told you this already
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: but i saw this documentary called natchez which came out last year which is
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: by this woman it's natchez okay like the place the place okay yeah yeah and
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: it's about the town in mississippi which was once basically the like cotton capital
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  SPEAKER_01: of the world also the slave trading capital of the united states
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  SPEAKER_01: and it was highly productive even after the abolishment of slavery the abolition
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: of slavery and the end of the civil war until the early 20th century when
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: the bull weaver wiped out the cotton trade and then the town had to pivot and
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: then became a historical destination and so
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: all the women of the town all these descendants
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: of slave owners basically opened up their mansions
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  SPEAKER_01: because there was all this amazing architecture in the town because there was
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: so much wealth in the 19th century so people built these extravagant homes and
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: then these women would dress up in antebellum costume and give people tours
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: and their descendants still do it today and this amazing documentary is all about
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: the different histories that people are telling including these women
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: in their hoop skirts being like
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: referring to their enslaved workers as their servants
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: or their friends like really really sugarcoating it and
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: then this like new generation of black storytellers and tour guides
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: who are like actually bringing people there's all these really important monuments
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: also in the town to the history of slavery which everybody's incredibly antagonistic
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: about all the white people in the town and I was going to talk about that
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: and it's like all because of the bull weevil in a way yeah it's really cool
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: do you feel also so i was just gonna ask how you felt as a delta one member
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: or whatever you are i love to know the history of a company that i'm deeply invested
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: in like i have over a million points colton will also talk about how that's like
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: when people started painting on masonite
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: because cotton canvas became like less available or more expensive because of
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: the bull weevil
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: wow it's all in there in the history of art he's like a bug guy that's cool
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: he's
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: in it for the bugs okay are we ready yeah are you launching me into
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: the 1770s once again i would like there to be like cymbals and like horns
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: and drums here little fifer drumming
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: i want to start with a story okay this is the story of a man who not but 10 miles
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: from where i sit at this very moment
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: was taking a break from his hard farm life and went to walk in the woods
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: to avoid his nagging wife with his dog who also didn't like his nagging wife
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: and found some strange men on the riverbanks who were speaking Dutch and drinking
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: a mysterious liqueur which he imbibed with them and he fell asleep in the woods
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: and woke up
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: and came back into town to find that everyone he had known was dead and
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: the world was changed forever rip van winkle this man is rip van winkle
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: so washington irving wrote the story of rip van winkle about in a period of time in
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: the beginning of the 19th century when people are really interested in creating
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: a national legend and a national mythology
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: and the story of rip van winkle which i didn't really ever think about
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: before is like very much a story about how strange the american revolution was
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: because basically rip van winkle goes into the woods these people
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: that he meets are meant to be like the sort of ghost fleet of henry hudson
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: and he drinks these flagons of wine with them
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: or whatever dutch vine i don't know how dutch wine but and then like falls asleep in
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: the woods and he wakes up
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: 20 years later and the american revolution has happened oh and he goes back
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: into town and it's not just that his wife and family are dead it's also election day
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: but he when he went to sleep there was a king and so there's this like moment
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: where he goes to the tavern and he sees this portrait on the wall
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: and what had been the king in a red military jacket is now he says replace the
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: the jacket has been replaced by a blue jacket and it's
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: and underneath it says general george washington but as far
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: as he's concerned that's still the king and the they're talking about voting
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: and they're talking about all of these battles and all these things
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: that he's never heard of before and he kind of like drunk or in his like sort
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: of stupor goes god save the king and is accused of being a tory
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: and that's like the whole drama of the story is that he doesn't realize
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: that this huge shift has happened because ultimately on the other side
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: of it things look very much the same oh i see and i just wanted to start with that
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: because i think it sort of paints the picture of you know we think of
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: the american revolution as this huge break and
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: that you know there was like all these identity shifts and things but the reality
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: of it is pretty different
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: and washington irving also washington irving has sorry just
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: a side note amazing story which is that when he was a kid he had like
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: a scottish nanny or something and they're walking on park avenue he's named
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: after george washington obviously and
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: they're walking on park avenue and they see george washington like
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: while he's president and the nanny like runs up with the baby washington irving
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: and it's like he's named for you like please and
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: then george washington pats his head
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: that is i can't believe george washington was ever just walking down park avenue
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: it's like when joe biden went to the wrong italian restaurant when did he do that
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: remember there was that story on page six about how like he went to
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: an italian restaurant across the street from elio's and and jane fonda was in elio
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: and was like you know he's supposed to be over here
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: poor guy hilarious it is
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: so crazy that the american experiment all led
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: to joe biden being president i know it actually kind of makes sense to me now
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: that i've been really steeped in this for you'll have to explain that
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: to me absolutely
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: sleepy joe is kind of like rip van winkle in a way yeah he is so
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: a rip van winkle figure i wonder how he's doing um i'm sure he's doing amazing i'll
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: tell you when i go to rehab yeah um
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: but anyway this is just like all to say that this kind of like are you
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: a federalist are you a democrat when like rip himself is kind of like i'm a loyalist
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: and it's all the same it's also it's kind of like being are you an alex cooper or
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: an alex earl are you a girl's girl the narcissism of small differences i feel like
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: that keeps coming up
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: well i love that phrase so it's probably good over and
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: over again there's like other like sleepy hollow
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: for example another washington irving tale is about
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: a hessian soldier who's been beheaded like what's hessian i'll get into it basically
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: the british like subsidized their army with this mercenary army paid for by or paid
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: for
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: i forget i think it was like frederick the prussian leader they hired his army
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: the prussian army these hessian soldiers to come and there was like part of
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: the battles in america there was like this
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: the hessian soldiers were much better trained than anyone else and so i'm forgetting
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: the name of the headless horseman does he have a name he has no head
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: so why would he have a name i don't know so the headless horseman
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: the nameless headless horseman is meant to be like one of these hessian soldiers so
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of washington the irving stories are like based in the american revolution
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: and like kind of creating these american fables and my parents did get married at
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: the sleepy hollow country club so it all comes down
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: to you yeah it all all roads lead to mabel
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: um okay so that's just setting
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: the stage thank you feel like we're
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: we're mood mood appropriate yeah i think we're mood appropriate are you mood i'm
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: mooing moo
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: um so 1776 itself is the year the revolution starts it begins in january
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: with the publication of thomas payne's common sense heard of it yeah and
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: then what is it madeline
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: oh it's a pamphlet i actually do not know what's in there i think i read it
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: in college numerous times i was an american studies major let that be the backdrop
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: to this i know i'm like why am i doing this i think we thought it would be
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: a fun challenge yeah we love to challenge me
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: with these like 18th century american topics that i know nothing
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: about i think you bring a certain joie de vivre to
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: the topic yes i would do it way too factually
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: i mean so common sense is basically a pamphlet that's arguing for democracy and
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: for american independence and the war and the kind of like build up to
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: the revolution which i will talk about more had been going on for like decades
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: at this point like since the 1750s but common sense is really like a breaking point
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: where now there's an articulation of like this idea of independence and what
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: the war becomes about
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: you mean like the conflict between the british and its colonies had been going on
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: for many decades but it was like finally crystallized into a movement even like
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_03: the revolutionary war had already been happening
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: but like independence had not been articulated yet it was just at
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: that earlier point it was just like an idea that they were fighting
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: for representation or for lower taxes or all like defense self-defense
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: but there was never any like idea that they would leave the british empire like
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: that was not on the table until 1776 which is why that year becomes
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: so important yeah
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: and nobody would have wanted that like there would be it wasn't like I feel like
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: so much of stories about colonial revolutions like thinking
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: about like Irish home rule or Indian independence
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: or all these things have this much more confrontational beginning because
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: a foreign nation comes in and starts ruling over an existing body obviously
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: that does happen in america as well but that's not the body that is like
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: the native population is not the people who's who are doing revolution it's
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: the british themselves and so it's like there wasn't the same idea that they wanted
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: to like throw off the yoke of british rule like they were british
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: in their minds yeah well it's also making me think a lot about the
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: the way that people talk about the civil war and it's like brothers against brothers
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: and neighbors against neighbors and it sounds like actually that could work
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: for this too definitely people talk about that and so you have common sense that's
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: the first time so that's like basically the the thing that's really interesting
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: about the american revolution that i don't think people talk about they talk
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: about it like these other revolutions um
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: is like it's both a civil war and it's like one of
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: the earliest like truly global conflicts
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: so you have like it's it's both this very local thing and there are like stories
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: about like you know a river where the british are on one side and the american or
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: the patriot army is on the other side and
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: two men and they're like you know hollering across the river
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: at each other like insults or whatever like just the army camps and
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: then two men take off running into the river and meet in the middle
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: and they're brothers and they haven't seen each other
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: and they've like completely lost track of each other
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: and it turns out each one had joined
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: a different did they drown no i guess it was like a creek
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: i was really unsure where the story was gonna go a lot
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: of people did drown that's also not talked about in the american revolution um
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: so common sense is published on january 9th and then that's sort of the beginning
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: of this propaganda campaign that's like articulating independence july 4th obviously
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: the declaration of independence is published for
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: the first time july 8th it's read publicly for the first time in philadelphia and
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: then there are all these public readings it's republished over and over again um and
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: then 1776 ends with
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: washington's famous christmas eve hail mary crossing the delaware so 1776 is really
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: the year that a lot of this like the iconic stuff of the american revolution happens
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: but the war itself goes on it starts like you know
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: the boston massacre i think is 1770 and then it ends in 1783 is when we first have
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: a president so there's like still all this stuff going on
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: okay these are my three sort of claims about the american revolution is unique
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: among revolutions and among national origin stories one is that like by 1826
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: when they're celebrating the 50-year anniversary of
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: the revolution you already have this like coherent narrative forming of
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: the 1776 and this big identity also did you know this thomas jefferson
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: and john adams both died on july 4th 1826 oh no weird that's
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: so weird what'd they die of murder suicide yeah
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: it was a it was a love love or
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: an affair gone wrong um i'm sure they died of old age like rotten teeth
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: yeah i mean they must have been like at least 80 i mean it's crazy
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: that they could have been as young as 20 in 1776 that's true 50
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: so yeah i mean they were like at least 76 years old or at least 50 i can't do math
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: but well they weren't newborns they were prodigies
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: yeah they were so good they just came out of
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: the womb saying i i do declare it's like an office when michael scott's like i have
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: a concept for a film and it's where a baby is president it's
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: a good idea it's really funny they haven't made
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: that movie it's really good well they made boss baby i guess yeah
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: because we value corporate service over civil service in this country i hope
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: that you inspire some change tonight
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: was really inspired learning about this i have
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: to say wow there are there are obviously caveats madeline becomes trump's latest
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: press secretary project 1776 um yeah so
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: so because this mythology becomes so strong and because these figures like live on
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: and like i feel like like whatever
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: the england like 1066 like obviously those people are no longer alive when
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: that story becomes kind of like the most important founding story
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: so you can't like wheel them out when they're on their deathbeds and say like come
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: to the jubilee
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: it's really a branding exercise more than anything it's kind of amazing and as
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: a result the story of the word that gets told is kind of like
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: the continental congress these like you know these all the all the imagery is like
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: of people in a room like signing pieces
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: of paper it's this really like bureaucratic kind of like bloodless ideological thing
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: that is not at all the case the war was gruesome
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: and i just want to also say for the record that the biggest fight that emily wisman
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: and i ever got in who's our book designer is was started by her saying that
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: the revolution was really really bloody and gory
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: and me being like no it wasn't wow i can't believe this episode is really for her
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: then it spiraled into like i think maybe a three-day fight about like everything
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: that we've ever said to one another but it started with that and i just want to say
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: on air for the record i was wrong
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: what year did you have this fight oh it must have been 2021 oh wow
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: recent there was
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: a lot there was a lot to like parse through in our relationship so it had to be deep
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: into the deep into the friendship um this one's for you emily this one's
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: for you yeah it was like really brutal and so this there's like i'll talk about
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: that some um also
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: as we just discussed it was both this kind of civil war where you have like the
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: the 13 colonies that like become the united states were really it was
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: a really small population so like the the level it's even like the civil war
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: the u.s population had boomed so much just like kind of diluted and diffuse
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: but new york city had an estimated population of 25 000 people
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: in 1776 that's very few people
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: so like
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: the brothers fighting brothers thing is extreme it's like everybody knew everyone
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: yeah pop quiz which was
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: the first state delaware yeah i just i remembered this weekend i saw a car
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: from delaware and oh how that license plate declares itself does it yeah it says
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: the first state and i thought is it also the smallest state
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: or is rhode island bookmark i think delaware might also be the smallest
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: loser if you ain't first you last um and then it's a global war
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: so we obviously people know about france and britain i want to emphasize also
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: that there are like native confederacies like you know the haudenosaunee being
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: the most well known but there's like uh
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: the creek confederacy there's all these confederacies that are participating in
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: the war on both sides and
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: in and like i'll tee it up a bit more there's like you know obviously all
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: the land claims that are
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: um that they're they're trying to defend and they get just absolutely fucked at
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: the end of it it's not surprising to hear but just worth worth highlighting right
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: from the outset um there's also fighting in not just the american colonies but
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: in british and french colonies in india in the caribbean and just like in
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: the ocean more generally ah the fish yeah
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: yes on the colonized fish it's like in shark tail and then at various points like
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: the spanish and
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: the dutch got involved i'm like only bringing up cartoons boss baby shark tail is
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: boss baby a cartoon yes it's an animated i don't know why
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: in my mind it's live action well that's fascinating um
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: and then does that make you feel relieved you're like that's why i didn't get
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: the role i would be the perfect adult
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: to play boss baby i just feel like i have baby head you do it's really cute um and
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: then the thing that i learned that shocked me the most
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: about 1776 is this florida was one of the main
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: global theaters of the war oh yeah i didn't really know that who did surely someone
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: in florida knew florida had taken wait sorry rewind britain had taken florida
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: from spain in 1763 and
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: and then spain entered the revolutionary war as an ally of france in 1779
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: although they did not acknowledge america as
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: an independent nation they were just allies with france and they took back florida
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: and then they took back pensacola in 1781 and then it became
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: a huge bargaining trip trip
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: chipped a huge bargaining chip when they did the treaty of paris in 1783 britain had
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: to return florida to spain officially wait so florida was spain
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: then florida was british and then florida was united states and then it went back to
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: the spanish i don't know that it was every united states it was just sort
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: of later it was it was spanish british spanish got it
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: it's interesting that you didn't know that considering your long time in florida as
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: a child and we didn't really talk about that i left after like second grade
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: so we didn't really get past ponce de leon you'll never know what they learned
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: in third grade i'll never know unless in your starring turn as boss baby you play
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: a third grader what's the um i'm gonna go sit in on third billy madison yeah
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: but isn't that because he's um
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: not all right in the head yeah but the madeline version is
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: that you're just desperate
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: to learn florida state history yeah i'm just doing like research on the role
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: so i sit in with a bunch of kids
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: and hope they don't notice it's like never been kissed but
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: with their oh yeah exactly you took the words out of my mind
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: uh again madeline is a production company and we are accepting pitches
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: for future future films i don't think we need other people's pitches these ideas are
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: cash cash cash money we're looking for an angel investor in our film work yeah take
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: a chance on us okay the other my third point i'm like we're so far in
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: and i have not spoken at all about what happened
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: the third point that i would like to highlight about 1776 is
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: the incredible diversity of the colonies it was like perhaps the most diverse place
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: on earth tell me more because not only do you have the british population
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: who are obviously kind of spearheading this story but you have a bunch
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: of other european immigrants like scottish
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: irish not just the uk french german welsh that is
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: the uk other ones dutch spanish i guess i kind of have a question
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: about like what is britain at this time it's all very confusing
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: to me like is scotland part of the uk i mean i just don't i'm because all
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: of those places were also england when was the battle of culloden i think
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: that had already happened god i don't even know what that is i know about that
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: from outlander
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: best show ever i feel isn't there a part of outlander where they go to the us yeah
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: in the later seasons so that's
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: after scotland loses independence these are all parallel timelines basically is what
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: you're trying to say there's just like so much going on it's really confusing
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: and it's not an easy story to tell i think you're doing great at
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: that all right hang up hang up um
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: so okay maybe this is a good segue into what i i also was just like my jaw was on
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: the floor to learn many of the the sort of points
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: that became like big sticking points for the revolutionaries began
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: in 1754 i'm following you
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: can you believe with with what we in america call the french and indian war
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: and what every other person in the entire world calls the seven years war oh that's
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: the same that's the same huh i mean is
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: that not crazy i just feel like there's every war other than
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: the major wars i don't know what they're called this is in every other person in
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: the entire world's mind a major war
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: the seven years war is a huge deal is that before the american revolution or
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: after it's in 1754 so i will leave you did you say
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: that i didn't know how i was supposed to know that so this is like one of
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: the first this is like really the seven years war is not really like it takes place
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: in america and also in all of the other colonies and sort of the same way that
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: the american revolution does but it's really a war between the french and
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: the british
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: and basically the area west of the appalachians at this point is not settled
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: and there are these competing land claims from the french and the british and also
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: the reason we call it the french indian war is that there are native people allied
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: with both sides because they're trying to defend their lands west of
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: the appalachians they've kind of already been forced west that way
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: and so they're trying to prevent like further settlement have you seen those maps of
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: the early united states where like north carolina and south carolina don't have
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: a western border they just like continue endlessly yeah the ones that are like
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: the bars yeah i love that that is kind of like that's this moment
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: where they're like what if like it was ours forever and can i guess how
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: the french american what is it french
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: indian war the seven years war ends does the french maintain that territory because
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: that becomes a louisiana purchase later or is
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: that different land that's different you can't explain
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: the louisiana purchase i'm gonna be honest well we talked about that
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: in 1-800-1803 i think because that's like the reason that the big lewis
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: and clark expedition happens because the french sell it why i guess
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: that like i don't know why they still had that because
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: based on this they did they lost well i think this is maybe the flaw
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: in our approach here where we tell the history out of order so we don't know how
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: the different pieces yeah i guess sometime between 1783 and 1803 something happened
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: with the french maybe something happened i guess i know what happened i think it was
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: the french revolution well that's why they needed the money well i think also the
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: the french thing is interesting because it's like it's supporting
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: the american revolution that basically you know
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: the french monarchs are putting all this money into
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: the united states this whole thing is about money it's all about money the french
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: and indian war starts in 1754 when a virginia militia
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: and their native allies attacks a group of french soldiers who are encroaching
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: on what they see as their own territory
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: and they ambush them and shoot them and according to one of the native soldiers
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: who was with that militia it was none other than george washington who fired
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: the first shot in that conflict god he's so controversial everywhere he's
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: on park avenue he's shooting people in the head he's on
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: the delaware that's i think maybe apocryphal but i like it as a concept
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: so i'm leaving it
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: so that's the beginning of his military career as an officer in the seven years war
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: and when it ends so American militias fight this war for
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: the British I mean there are British soldiers as well but that's like you know
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: because they're all part of one thing they're making
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: like you know these sacrifices but at the end of
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: the war washington is denied promotion to being an officer in the british army
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: because he's american and that's one of the things that sort
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: of sets him thinking like what like i'm not a full citizen
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: that does suck like I'm not enjoying the full rights of citizenship um
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: the other thing is that these so Washington Franklin Jefferson all
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: of these big other read between the lines baby all these other like big figures in
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: the American Revolution before
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: like as early as the end of the french indian war they're speculating in lands
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: that are not that neither the french nor the british have claimed to
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: that are native lands west of appalachia they're investing huge amounts of money
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: in speculating and settling these lands
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: so their financial future is really tied up in the possibility
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: of these becoming part of British territory and them getting all
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: of this money basically they're really financially invested in this and
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: if it works they will be massively wealthy and so in the
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: era post
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: the French Indian War or the Seven Years War
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: the british win but now they're in massive debt the americans now feel
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: a bit like second class citizens in the empire because
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: they are the british are trying to hold them back from going forth
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: with these settlements because they do have like treaties
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: with these native federations and they're trying to defend the lands
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: and they don't want american settlers encroaching on that and threatening the peace
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: and so they're trying to hold them back and
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: and so in 1763 the british decree that the territory west of
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: the appalachians can't be settled and the founding fathers
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: who are all really invested in these in these lands becoming available
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: to them are not cool with that at all i wouldn't be cool with that
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: and they're like we just fought this seven years war so
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: that we could get these lands
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: and now you're telling us we can't have them i'd be pissed
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: me too
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: but also i i wouldn't i mean i don't care you're like it's already done too late um
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: and i watched the 12-hour kevin burns american revolution
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: which i actually highly recommend if you're wanting to know anything
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: about this other than the sort of idea that i'm talking about
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: and phil deloria is one of the like talking heads in that
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: and he who should i say who
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: that is yeah yeah i don't remember oh oh oh i remember bill deloria is he's a he's
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: a historian at harvard he's um now i'm forgetting he's native and he's related to
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: the woman who had that show yeah he's really mary sully is his grandmother
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: so he wrote the book about her and um
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: like did he i think he helped curate that show i mean he's the one
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: who like discovered her work or like decided her work needed to be showed
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: but he's also like an amazing he wrote this amazing essay that i'm obsessed with
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: about um
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: uh like this idea that one of the performers in buffalo bills like a native chief
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: who had been a performer in buffalo bills um show in europe like escaped and lived
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: in the south of france and met walter benjamin when he was running away from
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: the nazis i mean it's like obviously completely fabulated but it's
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: a really cool essay and it's not true
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: it's not true but it's kind of like a meditation on displacement and like diaspora
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: and kind of like identity and how native people's history is bound up
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: with these larger historical movements just like someone like benyamin who's
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: considered a much more significant historical figure
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: but actually like you know yeah beautiful it's sort of a similar story and he's in
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: the ken burns film
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: yes phil and what does he say in it oh so he's one of the talking heads
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: and he's he's obviously like this his his uh point of view is very specific
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: but he sort of talks about this these land claims and the british like limiting
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: the unrestricted access that the founding fathers felt like they deserved to
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: the territory west of the appalachios as the real seat of the revolution hmm
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: well it's interesting that like colonial expansion is the founding issue yeah
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: but it's also and it's interesting i don't know i feel like the hot take or
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: the critical take on the american revolution is like it was all just
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: about not wanting to pay taxes it was all just about like wanting to be able
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: to like displace native americans um
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: i don't know what i and i think that's true i think
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: that it's yeah i think there's all these myths at this point yeah but i do think
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: that the like mythological retelling of the revolution is really powerful
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: and you can be like i believe in freedom i believe in independence
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: but it is ultimately about financial gain and like genocide so it's sad definitely
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: and i think i mean the ken burns does a really good job of kind of like
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: like weighing both sides because obviously like i think you
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: and i both feel like this but maybe i'm putting words in your mouth where it's like
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of those ideas like i am really moved by and i think there's like there
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: as you're learning the history of the revolution like there's such acts of bravery
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: and there's such acts of like like
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: subordinating the self to this bigger cause and these bigger ideas and it's like
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: so inspiring and so amazing to see and
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: then there are also these like really really horrific betrayals of people
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: who were fighting for
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: the same ideals alongside including native populations including black
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: populations who both free and enslaved were just absolutely screwed even
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: though they like devoted their lives to this hope for freedom that and
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: for them it was even like more meaningful because you know
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: so instead um should i skip ahead yeah i mean i do think we should talk and
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: then i'll skip ahead to the okay
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: i just feel like it's important to set the stage for this because like the battles
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: and stuff themselves like obviously if you're
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: into military history it's like oh we were losing and then we won like you know
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: that kind of thing but this stuff is kind of the juice of it for me
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: yeah and it's i think that the way that you go from a sort
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: of like patriotic interpretation of the fourth of july is this like fun holiday
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: and like the star-spangled banner and washington crossing the delaware the way that
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: that history has to be told with like the three-fifths compromise in mind
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: and like yeah with the plight of
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: the native soldiers like it's just it's really really one story
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: and i think it's your duty to tell it as an american and i
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: i just saluted mabel
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: because i'm gonna fulfill my i'm duty bound you're duty bound um but talk about
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: the stamp act yeah let's talk about the stamp act so so 1763 that is happening
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: with these land claims
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: so there's already like you know some unrest fomenting this basically in order to
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: enforce those rules about settlement the british need to send 10 000 soldiers into
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: the us from mainland britain and station them across that the appalachian so
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: that they can stop
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: because these settlers are already there it's not like they're preventing them
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: they're trying to sort of police them and control them and they are cash poor at
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: the moment because they've just fought and funded the seven years war so in order
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: to pay the
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: and the british like the citizens in the metropole are already
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: the most taxed like they're the most taxed people in history the people in london
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: the people in london so they're paying 26 shillings a year in taxes in 1763 opposed
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: to the the people in the colonies who are paying one shilling a year
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: in taxes average hmm
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: so just to like put
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: into context they cannot tax their like local population anymore like it's they're
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: maxed out and so in order to pay for sending these soldiers over to defend
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: the colonies and in their minds they also just fought this war the seven years war
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: to defend the colonists they're like oh we're gonna tax the colonists obviously
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: to pay for all this so which i'm kind of like go off
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: then taxation sucks let's be real
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: i know but also i like believe in civil service so social as of today as
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: of today um just because you sprained your ankle and now you you're like what
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: if no my insurance sucks yeah it's like part of the problem
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: of sparing my ankle um this stamp act goes into effect in 1765
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: and is basically i feel like people know what this is but it's essentially a tax
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: on any piece of paper
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: so a marriage license a will any like legal document will have to have a royal stamp
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: on it to be valid but also like a deck of cards like any piece of paper has
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: to be stamped and taxed there's a really good this is a bit of a stamp digression
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: but it really like i think it's hard to understand the power of the stamp
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: until you see it enacted and i
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: rebecca worked on this film called cutting through rocks which is about a village
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: in northwest rural ron and this woman is elected to the local city council
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: and what you get when you're on the council is the stamp and then she uses her stamp
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: to like usher in transformative social change
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: so she creates this basically she says everybody needs to have a deed to their house
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: in order to have gas because nobody has gas in their houses
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: and only she can stamp the deeds
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: and basically what she does is she enforces this idea
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: that women wives should be able to be on the deed of their husbands homes so that
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: if their husband dies they inherit the home like and yeah and
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: then basically like all the patriarchal sexist men in the village
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: are in an uproar about it and they they're just trying
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: to get her stamp like they're like give us your stamp you you they try
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: to confiscate it and it's just like this is like really basically
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: the same yeah i just it all clicked for me all of a sudden it is the stamp yeah well
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: and so this stamp like the stamp act itself the tax is really a low like it's like
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: the equivalent of a penny like it's nothing you know but it's like the principle of
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: the thing which i feel like is also related
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: yeah and it's also i mean it on both sides it's like it's cool when
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: the stamp is being used to create change but when you're not the sort
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: of person being victimized and quote unquote by the change it's probably easier
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: to say that but it also is crazy that like every piece of information because it was
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: a paper-bound world yeah and so the people
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: who are most i mean it's also fascinating like and i didn't do too much research
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: into it but like the people that are
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: promoting the protests are printers who are also in charge of like they're
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: the media moguls of the day and the act affects them the most because they deal
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: in paper so like they're fomenting this anger about this act that is like really
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: about their own business and their own bottom line but also the literacy rates in
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: the colonies were like way higher than in other places and so
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: you're able to have this like when common sense is published as a pamphlet
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: for example like you have this much much like more literate body populace reading
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: that and that's unusual at that time yeah and that's where it goes back
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: to this like early colonial american history where like some of the first
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: european people to settle here are people who like really strongly believe in
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: the written word and
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: christian right yeah to read the bible instead of having it told to you instead
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: of like hearing what
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: god says reading it like that's the american story too and that's also i think like what makes
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: the current
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: controversy like culture or whatever of like i don't know i think that
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: the like fake news stuff
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever like misinformation is actually really un-american
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: because totally this whole place was about the ability to like have agency
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: over knowledge yeah no i agree it's a goddamn shame god it's
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: a goddamn shame where's george washington buried is he it must be
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: at monticello isn't monticello thomas jefferson he must be at mount brunan
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: i was gonna say the same thing oh he's he's from virginia i mean he's definitely
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: in virginia
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_03: we gotta go find him we gotta go look for that guy um anyway so
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: so these printers foment this anger sam adams who i didn't i knew he was like a beer
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: and a founding father and john adams his cousin but he his role is really
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: that he's like really good at propaganda and
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: and and wasn't it the sam adams award for whistleblowers that we were reading
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: about yesterday oh yeah maybe yeah he's basically like one of
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: the main people who's his like he he states himself that his role is to keep
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_02: the anger in people's minds alive like to not let them fall into sort of a stupor
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: after a small victory important clarification on what i just said the sam adams uh
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: that the sam adams award
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: sam adams whistleblower award is named after sam adams who is known for having been
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: a cia analyst who leaked information about the vietnam war so i think that's just
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: a coincidence maybe he's a distant relative like
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: the hail connection yeah i mean we're all connected really yeah we're all one people
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: one nation under god indivisible
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: god do you remember being a kid doing the pledge of allegiance having no idea what
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: that word meant did you have to do that yeah of course i lived in florida
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: but i lived in california we had to do it every day um for which it stands
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: in florida i was like there's no question that you had to do it i went
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: to private school and we had to do it
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: it just reminded me i went to this coffee shop recently that's called lmnop
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: and i was like that's so cute to me in the same way that like when you're little
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: and you're trying to do the pledge of allegiance and you're like for
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: which it's sans like i love those like kid idioms
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: that's cute all right keep going
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: stand back keep going stand back goes into effect
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: there are violent riots every single clerk who's hired to enforce
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: the stamp act is basically chased out of town so there's a quote in one of
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: the things that I consume that I can't remember and I didn't write it down that says
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: by the time the stamp act was set to go into effect there was nobody left
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: to enforce it the colonists had run them out
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: and so the taxes repealed but then in 1767 there's a new set of taxes enacted
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: the townsend act which um applies to lead glass paint colors paper again
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: and exported chinese tea from the east india company so that's another way this is
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: a global conflict
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: because british colonial interests are you know they're they're bringing in
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: tea from china they're re-exporting it from england and then trying to tax
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: the americans as a as if it's a british export facts and that starts that 1760
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: the townsend act starts this set of boycotts against british goods led mostly
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: by women go women and
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: and they would like do these really highly publicized events
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: where like women would go to the church and produce as much homespun fabric
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: as they possibly could and in protest of british textiles and stuff like that i bet
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: that stuff was really rough i bet it was pretty rough yeah i was like you know don't
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_03: you kind of think that we would have been kind of women not wearing
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: the homespun i would not have been wearing homespun i was really thinking
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: about this i do think i probably would have been a loyalist
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: yeah i mean given the way i love the british royal family now having never been
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: a subject of the british empire at least
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: at this early point i think maybe i could have been swayed later but like
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: in 1767 i'm kind of like i'll pay the tax on paint you love paint
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: who am i to stop to say i can't i don't want to pay for my pain also i have
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: a question like were people drinking coffee that commonly yet when they did
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: the tea tax oh they loved tea yeah so i'm like there was no alternative imagine
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: if they started taxing coffee you would have been flipping out you love coffee i pay
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: like 85 for a cup of coffee now like i don't think i would have had a problem
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: then paying a small tax i like your understanding of your positionality
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: in revolutionary america
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: i'm like i recently got an iced coffee
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: that i think was nine dollars i've been getting by accident coffees on
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_03: the upper east side that are nine to ten dollars it's insane with tip like 10
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: without tip no no no that's what i'm saying like with tip closer
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: to 10 11 no i'm saying that they are baseline 10 to 11 on the upper east side
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: if you get like an iced coffee i think we're saying
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: the same thing i'm just saying it a weird way
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: i'm agreeing with you yeah it's just a goddamn riot and i'm gonna throw all
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: the coffee in the freaking hudson river yeah so okay so you're you're uh teasing
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: an event that takes place teasing teasing so 1767 townsend acts that's when the sons
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: of liberty are founded 1770 boston massacre whoa whoa that was really bad
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: can we talk about the boston tea party like the the contemporary version of it
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: at some point today yeah i don't know anything about
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: that me neither let's debate okay um so the boston massacre basically there's
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: the british soldiers have arrived and they're stationed in boston somebody
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: at some point something happens and somebody starts ringing the town bells
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: and there's like
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: a mob has formed they're like throwing snowballs at the soldiers kind of like
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: the famous massacre in tomkins square park or washington square park whatever
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: that happened this past winter um but it could have just been left at that
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_02: but somebody starts ringing the town bell which in boston at that time means there's
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_02: a fire and so then all these
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: way more people start pouring into the town square with like buckets and you have
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: to remember also boston
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: if new york is 25 000 people boston's also like 25 000 it's like not that big of
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_02: a town at this point there's like people coming in
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: with fire buckets there's like more people so this mob has formed
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: then there's they're harassing a pretty small group of soldiers like nine soldiers
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: to 400 people the bells are ringing which means fire someone in the crowd yells fire
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: at which point the british soldiers open fire on the crowd
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: wait were they referring to mayhem
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_03: when someone screamed fire it's unclear they probably didn't mean shoot us right you
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_03: they were asking for it maybe yeah
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: but it's i think it was just like obviously it's like confusion it's
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: a stressful situation for the soldiers like it was a mistake it was a bad mistake
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: but it sets off like a much bigger thing there's a shot heard around the world
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: that was not the shot heard around the world what was that shot no i think that was
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: the battle of beacon hill wasn't it oh googling it
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: that's actually a great oh
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: the battles of lexington and concord april 1970 75 which is the original skirmish of
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: the american revolution wait what year 1775 oh i thought you said 1975 i was like
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_03: what the
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: what the heck and that phrase was written by ralph waldo emerson in 1837 oh he's
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_02: the best he's just the best um so five people are killed at
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: the boston massacre including a dock worker
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: who was half african american half native who was really tall named crispus
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: just love that name and a rope maker and a sailor like sort of working class people
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: from boston and then there were two other people who were injured
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: but didn't die till days later
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: um and paul revere makes what is like a very famous engraving of the scene titled
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: the bloody massacre and that's like where the term massacre kind of becomes
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: the phrase that everyone uses to describe this event is that the one
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: where there's like all the dead bodies on the ground
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: and there's like british soldiers yeah and they're like in a cloud
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: of smoke i have it do you want to see it yeah because i think that's in
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: the exhibition at the met right now which is called revolution
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: i'm sure it is yeah it's really bloody the bloody massacre yeah and the dog i like
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_02: the dog well you have to have an innocent um and so all of this then leads to
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_02: this like there's this law there's there
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_02: the soldiers are tried john adams actually defends the soldiers did you know
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: that no traitor and most of them get off two are convicted of manslaughter
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_02: but their only punishment is that their thumbs are branded so that
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: if they ever get convicted of a crime later they can't claim they were innocent
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_02: which i think is a cool system wait they couldn't they would be guilty
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: of every future crime
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: like part of their manslaughter defense was
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: that they had not previously committed crimes like this so they wanted to brand them
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: so that they could be sure that later so that happened 1770 1773
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: the boston tea party occurs and
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_02: a group of men not identified dressed as sort
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: of
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: like stereotypical Native Americans takes a load of East India Company tea
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: and dumps it in the Boston Harbor
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_02: making a huge cup of tea making a huge cup of tea
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: and Phil Deloria says something interesting in the
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: burns documentary which is that like the native american thing is not
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: about like savagery it's about this claim to americanness and like nativism and it's
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: a it's a statement of anti-britishness and like a an um not just like national
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: but ethnic difference even between the patriots and the british
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: which i thought was interesting explain that again
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: basically like phil deloria says that like by dressing up
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: as native americans they weren't trying to like disguise their act or like say
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: that native people did it or like you know that
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_02: that they were it wasn't like disguise it was a way of claiming americanness
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_02: by saying like we're aligning ourselves with these first people here and not with
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_02: the british who are new and like we're authentically american so we're dressing up
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_02: as natives i see
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: that's interesting they're like the aboriginal people not they're not identified
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: as british they're identifying with
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: the aboriginal group that's that's really interesting okay thanks
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_02: for re-explaining yeah i thought that was cool and i liked that way of thinking
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_02: about it um because i do think at this point like like the haudenosaunee
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: for example are like a huge power it's not like they're it it's it doesn't have
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: the same valence as it does today well also knowing what happened
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: it's interesting spoiler alert but you've earned it if you've made it this far into
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: the episode I'm researching 1876 which is such a different moment in the history
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: of Native American and white relations and I'm going to talk about Custer
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: and stuff like that and just the level of displacement and genocide
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: that was being actively enacted by 1876 it's just a different American story in
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_02: the 1770s the Native population still is
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_02: is like there's a real possibility for them like maintaining their land claims
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: and they're like not just fighting like against and alongside the british and
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: the french but also like they're negotiating
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_02: with them they have like political relationships with them and like i i think
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: the end of the revolutionary war is really like that the decline of those kinds
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: of like the hope of these
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: more diplomatic ways of dealing with each other as nations because they're just
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: so disrespected and so betrayed by the end of it that any idea that they had
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_02: that they could deal with these encroachments diplomatically or even in
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_02: a normal war way are just shattered
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: it'll be interesting to talk about these frontier prairie wars in the 19th century
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: in that context because it's the military might that's implemented
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_02: on both sides is really crazy so many of those wars are fought by people
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: who are not originally from those areas by 1783 a lot
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_02: of western tribes are inviting Iroquois Creek
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: whatever people from the east coast to the west to resettle
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_02: because they know they're losing their land claims that's interesting
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: so it's like those it's like not even like by you know a century later
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_02: when it seems like these are like the native populations
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: of these areas like actually a lot of those people had already resettled there
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: um and so after the boston tea party a customs official
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_02: whose name i didn't write down is tarred and feathered my least favorite crime
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_02: so actually devastatingly brutal when you think about it disgusting
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_02: and he was bedridden for eight weeks after i didn't think you could survive
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: so severe he did survive but it's like i mean you have boiling hot tar poured
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: over your whole body
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: and is it like when the tar hardens it falls off i don't really know about all
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: that i'm just confused how you move on from
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: that like physically it's not it's also not like they just do that and
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: then leave you they like beat you and parade you through the street
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: so it's like i don't know where the like they also used
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: to do this thing called riding the i think it's called riding the fence do you know
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_03: about this no but i don't like the sound of it
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: the patriots when they wanted to like humiliate a customs official
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: or something they would basically get like a two by four or something like a piece
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_02: of wood like a thin piece of wood and hoist them up on it
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: and make them like ride it like
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_02: a horse like like pulverizing their balls basically like split like straddling okay
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_02: and then like riding through town and they would call it riding the fence
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_03: or riding i can't remember that is disgusting yeah it was really really brutal
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: Emily was right Emily was right um
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_02: and basically after the Boston Tea Party and the um
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: the tarring and feathering of this customs official and this there's like
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_02: a crackdown from the british on the population of boston which then inspires
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: the other colonies to make shows of solidarity and
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: so uh like ben franklin had proposed that the colonies create a more united body
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: the 13 colonies because they were all run really independently like in the 1750s
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_02: but it never was they were never able to make it happen
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_02: in large part because of these religious differences and these economic differences
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: in the way the colonies were run slavery being like one of the main things
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_02: although slavery was legal in all 13 colonies but it was much more crucial to
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_02: the economy of Virginia for example than Boston and then Massachusetts and but after
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_02: the sort of violence and crackdown in the early 1770s like Virginia calls for
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: for a continental congress and they do a day of fasting in solidarity
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_02: with massachusetts towns in connecticut toll the bells for 24 hours like all
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: of these kind of shows of solidarity that had not really been able to cohere
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: before start coming together
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: um and the sort of final straw i don't really think this like would have been such
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_02: a big deal if um there wasn't already all of this turmoil but in i think it was 1775
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_02: but i'm not 100 sure this um act goes into effect called the quebec act basically
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: in an attempt to curtail the settlement of these territories beyond
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: the Appalachians,
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_02: one of the things the British do is make any French Catholic who became a citizen of
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: the British territory at the end of the French and Indian War,
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: they become full citizens and they're all Catholic.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so for many of the Protestants in the colonies, that's it.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_02: They're angry about that?
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_02: They feel betrayed by the British.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_03: huh
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_03: i didn't know that you'd think they'd like that why i don't know more friends
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_02: but also like i think it's important for people to remember i didn't say this at all
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_02: that like what they're fighting for still in 1776
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: with independence is not like full enfranchisement
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_02: for all people like they do not want catholics to be able
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_02: to vote they want they want land holding protestant men to be able to vote
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_02: and like the idea of freedom kind of gets bigger it's like too big to fail at
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_02: the end and i think enfranchisement becomes like a much more widespread
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_02: and bigger thing than they wanted it to be but in
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_02: the beginning they did not like full enfranchisement for every citizen was not part
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: of the conversation well it's also just interesting because i think
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: where they went wrong if their intention was only to empower themselves
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: was through their very literary approach to documenting their desires like if
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: they had been a little bit less florid in their language then nobody would have ever thought
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_02: that it was like we the people i know but they needed to like they need they needed
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_02: to bring like they needed the people to want to fight
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_02: the war it's like they would have lost otherwise and it's
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_03: branding exercise like they yeah
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_01: they buried their real interest in this like very inspiring language
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: that we're all still like you know enchanted by yeah i mean i was also
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_02: so i read i watched the ken burns thing i also read there's like a
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_02: i listened to it i didn't read it and then i also because i wanted to kind of hear
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_02: the like more traditional history that people would be like maybe critical
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_02: of now i also read david mccullough's book 1776
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_02: which is very much like what you'd expect it's like there's one mention
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: of black soldiers in the entire book which is george washington saying
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_02: that he didn't want black soldiers in his army because he thought it was like uh
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know like a bad look basically um and aren't there black soldiers in
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_03: the washington crossing the delaware painting yeah he so washington changes his tune
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_02: on that because he realizes that he can't fight the war he needs to fight
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_02: with his prejudices it's like but then okay so i'll let me say my mccullough thing
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_02: and then i'll circle back to that because that's actually huge um
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: and so the story mccullough tells is like very much led
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_02: by these like founding father figures it's
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_02: a very white story you know it's like
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_02: there's this ragtag army of militia men
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_02: of these colonists and they defy all odds and beat the british and the and
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_02: the hessian army and the prussian army and like a way that you know is just like
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_02: a miracle essentially and that is kind of what happened
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_02: but and i'm not going to go in beyond 1776 but basically like the arc
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_02: of 1776 is really like when that happens because they go from declaring independent
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_02: or from common sense and from these kind of skirmishes and these like local battles
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_02: to uniting as a country
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_02: declaring independence and then the story of washington crossing
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_02: the delaware is like it's this miraculous feat and basically the reason that it's
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_02: so important that it happens at the end of the year is that all of the soldiers
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: who are enlisted their commissions expire on new year's day so the whole army is
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: about to be disbanded and washington makes this miraculous defeat on december 25th
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_02: and inspires all of these new recruits and that's really what saves the war effort
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_03: wait he does it on christmas christmas eve who it's just it's good it's
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_02: a christmas tale but i also texted you while i was reading the mccullough book
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_02: that i felt like i would be a good army commander because i'm like some of the stuff
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_02: that they were calling people geniuses for in that book were like putting food on
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_03: the retreat path i mean it's like duh
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_03: it's seems basic until you're the guy who comes up
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_03: with it i guess i just think women should be in command of the army
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_02: and they just shouldn't tell them about the violent parts yeah sort
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: of like how they used to not tell women
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_02: that they had cancer oh god
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_02: i i feel like i mean i i already told you all these
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_02: things but i'm just gonna repeat them as if i didn't because it's like
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_02: for example general lee who's one of the the patriot commanders kept writing to
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_02: the continental congress being like we need money our soldiers don't have shoes
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_02: and everyone was like
• 1:15:56
  SPEAKER_02: yeah yeah like they don't have shoes like we all don't have shoes it's a hard time
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_02: and then washington like he meets washington somewhere they get
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_02: to his like army encampment
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_02: and washington is like oh my god these guys don't have shoes it's like he's been
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_02: saying they don't have shoes but they like didn't they're not like registering
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_02: the full effect of these kind of like quality of life things
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_02: and the only reason that there's like sort of any semblance of like
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_02: the soldiers having clean clothes which is important because of dysentery like is
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_02: because washington very begrudgingly lets these women and children like march with
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_02: the encampments like people's wives and also prostitutes and they do
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_02: the laundry they do the laundry because the soldiers there's such a like the
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_02: the american soldiers are not professionalized at all and they're so like in their
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_02: machismo like colonial mindset mindset that they're like it's humiliating
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_02: to do laundry i'd rather live in my like stenchy like decrepit filthy clothes
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_02: whereas the british soldiers are professionalized and their commanders are like
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: if you don't wash your shirt you're out like you're not getting paid i'm just
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: thinking about what it would be like to not have shoes in the winter in
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_03: the winter marching like 20 miles a day
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_01: well i was wanting to say this too like because i drove all the way
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_01: through new england the other day yeah from maine through massachusetts
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_01: through connecticut
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_01: i was just like it is crazy how we just sort of whip through this territory
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_01: and people used to and i were talking about this too and the landscape
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_01: of new england is hostile like that's also a really important part of like
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_01: the early american colonial story is just like that place had rocky soil
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: and it was not very hospitable and so imagine walking it
• 1:17:50
  SPEAKER_01: and it's also like really marshy
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_02: yeah i'm just like for so george on monday like came to help me get the rest
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_02: of my stuff from new haven and we went from hudson valley to new haven
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_02: which is like part all part of the theater of
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_02: the revolutionary war we drove there got everything out of my apartment put it
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: in my car and drove back in the
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: well it's like in the um testament of ann lee the shaker movie
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_01: where they like take this epic journey from new york city up the hudson
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_01: to like find shake like start the shaker world which is like
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_01: where my house is basically yeah it's like it's
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_01: a two-hour drive now it's really crazy yeah it's so funny yeah
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_01: if they could only have seen us now these guys
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_02: and they're doing this i mean there's like all of these amazing like stories
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_02: about them trying to like get you know
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_02: twelve six hundred pound cannons down the river like but
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_02: the river wasn't freezing solid enough and people were like there's all
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_02: of this like just the logistics of this stuff that's becomes mythologized
• 1:19:00
  SPEAKER_02: because it was so challenging that now it's like you just would put it on a truck
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_01: and is it true or is it myth that because i feel like the story of
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_01: the revolutionary war i've always been told is that the american soldiers had
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: the advantage of having it be their home territories and understanding
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_01: the landscape that's true like that was always the story i felt like i heard as
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_02: a kid well i think it's like i think it's hard for i mean even like when i've been
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_02: with british people here it's like hard for them to understand how diverse
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_02: the territory is
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_02: like they don't like they know it but it's really like
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_02: when they see it they're like whoa it's just like you could drive two hours and be
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_02: in a completely different climate and
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_02: a completely different you could walk three days you could walk three days um also
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: so much of the like strategic stuff is about like who was on a hill
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_01: and i just couldn't be bothered to care it is amazing how like most
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_01: of military history has been about hills
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_02: the battles of new york were 1777 but those it's like people would be like
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_02: in clinton hill looking out to long island did you know and
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_02: clinton hill i guess was
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_02: an actual strategic hill yeah well fort green
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_02: have you did you read about fort green is like important in
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_01: the revolutionary war like the fort green the like the monument
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: the military monument at fort green is so crazy i was reading the plaque
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_01: the other day yeah like the british never looked at it
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_01: the british like trapped like seven ships full of american people or something in
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_01: the east river and so they all starve to death
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_01: no like thousands of people or something it's like crazy and they're all buried
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_01: in like a horrible pit of a grave underneath the navy yard yeah yeah
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_02: the british had these horrific prison ships in the east river like
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_02: if you got captured by the british army it was like worse
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_01: than just having them kill you yeah and so then they also just like blockaded them
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_01: so everybody starved to death and died and then they're all just in
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_01: a mass grave underneath the navy yard and i guess like in the 19th century they
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_01: took what is it called when you take someone out of
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_01: a grave exhumed yeah they exhumed like a hundred of them and buried them in the hill
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_01: at fort green park that's scary
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_02: a nice gesture not nice no um yeah i mean it's just like the whole like sort
• 1:21:34
  SPEAKER_02: of question of the who had the advantages just because also
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_02: the british soldiers were like paid and
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_02: and the prussian soldiers were paid and at one point george washington wrote
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_02: a letter to john adams and was like i feel like if we paid our soldiers
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_02: and like promised to help them if they get hurt like they might be better
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_02: and john adams was like a bit gauche i think people should do this because they want
• 1:21:59
  SPEAKER_02: to do this it's like mandylion she was like exactly it's
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_02: a passion project she was like if they don't believe in
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_02: the cause like i don't really want them i hear him i mean and checks out
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_02: i mean it's just like really also i texted you this which i just thought was
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_02: so funny there's like points at which basically like by 1777 1778 like the
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_02: the continental congress is like not really an organized body so they keep promising
• 1:22:26
  SPEAKER_02: to raise money but they're not actually doing it so there's like no money
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_02: the american revolution is being basically single-handedly funded
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_02: by this guy named robert morris and washington's writing him letters being like
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_02: if i got really lucky like maybe that would be good but he like doesn't have a plan
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_02: or a strategy he's just like what if like luck favored me this week i mean like
• 1:22:50
  SPEAKER_01: that would be good and it kind of happens honestly it was the luckiest war
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_02: of all time he's just like what if i'm just a lucky guy
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_02: also george washington has a brother named jack washington who stayed home
• 1:23:05
  SPEAKER_02: to take care of the plantation and i kind of like want a oh mary play
• 1:23:11
  SPEAKER_02: about jack washington the lesser washington brother i mean be the change you want
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_03: to see in the world i just like jack washington is lol to me
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_02: um okay i want to talk about freedom yeah and race okay i was like we got to talk
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_02: about race and so we got to talk about race and then uh and
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_02: then we could be wrapping it up i feel like i've sort of made most of my points yeah
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_03: and also this is just the beginning of the journey one of the things
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_02: that happens is you know at the beginning of the war
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_02: they are reading the declaration of independence aloud
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_02: in all these times square town squares time squares time squares everywhere square
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_02: in america and it's flashing on the stock ticker um in electric light and think
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_02: about reading something in the town squares you can't really prevent who hears it
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_02: or you can't help who hears it and so
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_02: many enslaved people particularly when the declaration starts being read in virginia
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_02: and stuff are hearing it and feeling like they're either motivated for freedom
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_02: and liberty or excluded from it yeah there's a british general who in 1775 this is
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_02: a completely like
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_02: self-serving he's not doing this because he believes in equality or abolition or any
• 1:24:36
  SPEAKER_02: of that stuff although abolition is more popular of a sentiment in england
• 1:24:40
  SPEAKER_02: at this time than it is in america a general named dunmore makes a proclamation
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_02: in 1775 that any enslaved men who escaped patriot owners to join
• 1:24:52
  SPEAKER_02: the british forces would be freed on completion of their service
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_02: now it will not surprise anyone to hear that this many people do it they form
• 1:25:05
  SPEAKER_02: a significant portion of the british army not just in numbers but also
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_02: because they have all this knowledge of the terrain and of the people
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_02: that they're fighting
• 1:25:17
  SPEAKER_02: nevertheless it's like any at any point that dunmore or any of
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_02: the other british army officers are forced to make a decision between like
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_02: intervening to for the health or safety of these soldiers or their own financial
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_02: and political interests they're choosing their financial and political interests
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_02: which is you could argue something that happens to all soldiers
• 1:25:42
  SPEAKER_02: but this is like extreme like they're leaving people to die of smallpox like
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_02: in complete abandonment
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_02: in places where like i think if it had been white soldiers they probably would have
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_02: at least like left nurses and stuff there's like a scene where in one of
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_02: the things i read where this patriot soldier comes upon just you know like a sign
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_02: a scene of abject misery of all of these black soldiers that have just been left
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_02: to die of smallpox
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_02: with no care no food no resources no water it's like like devastating terrible
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_02: and then after the British lose the war
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_02: the promise
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_02: of their freedom becomes this sticking point in the negotiations between the British
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_02: and the Americans and the British officers are kind of like we promised them
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_02: that they would be free if they fought for us like you have to acknowledge it and
• 1:26:43
  SPEAKER_02: the Americans are like absolutely the fuck not and so
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of people were able to escape to Nova Scotia which was still British territory
• 1:26:54
  SPEAKER_02: in Canada but it just like a lot of people were returned to their enslavers
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_02: as well that's awful and one of the people who escaped to fight for the British was
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_02: a man named Henry Washington who had been enslaved by George Washington
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_02: and he runs away
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_02: after dunmore's proclamation george washington was opposed originally he was
• 1:27:18
  SPEAKER_02: a virginia slave holder he was opposed
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_02: to black soldiers fighting not just alongside white soldiers but in general i think
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of the southern founding fathers were opposed to this because they were afraid
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_02: that they would like it would lead to the abolishment of slavery
• 1:27:36
  SPEAKER_02: and they changed their minds later because they had no choice basically but when
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_02: the war ends they want things to return to the status quo so George Washington makes
• 1:27:45
  SPEAKER_02: a claim on Henry Washington again after the war is
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_01: over this is interesting go ahead well I was reading in my 1876 research
• 1:27:56
  SPEAKER_01: that George Washington I don't know if this is just because he ages and changes but
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_01: by the end of his life in his will I think he
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_01: wills for his slaves to become free but then martha washington
• 1:28:10
  SPEAKER_01: who survives him was like nah i want to keep it going and it's interesting also
• 1:28:15
  SPEAKER_02: because it's originally her money that funds all
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_02: of this like he didn't have money she was a wealthy widow so those sort
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_01: of like her inherited slavery well i'm just like there's there's such
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_02: an interesting kind of like
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_02: troubled history of parsing out like these racial histories and then also like
• 1:28:35
  SPEAKER_02: the financial independence of women and like so her being able to even make
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_02: that decision was kind of like i don't know i mean it's just such a like the
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_02: the fact that these ideals were driving this revolution at this time
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_02: when you just have so many layers of like the you know indebtedness and like
• 1:28:58
  SPEAKER_02: inability to make decisions for yourself
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_02: and like these hierarchies it's just interesting yeah i mean i think it's also like
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_01: a helpful reminder of the way that even today people across like a spectrum
• 1:29:11
  SPEAKER_01: of power are all entangled in each other like you're being empowered is related
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_01: to someone being powerless and that's like very literal in the end of
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_03: the 18th century
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_02: yeah because i also think that's actually basically what you just said
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_02: about martha washington is also almost exactly what happens
• 1:29:28
  SPEAKER_02: with dolly madison too like these women who are subject to the rule
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_02: of their husbands when they're free as
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_02: as we know i think 18th century 19th century widowhood is
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_03: the ultimate status we could try to arrange that for you to be a widow 200 years ago
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_02: it's just like it's one of the only social positions in that period
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_02: where you can be financially politically independent
• 1:29:58
  SPEAKER_02: and also sexually knowing dream dream
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_02: but anyway yeah
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_02: so henry washington runs away he fights for the british and then he flees
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_02: to nova scotia after he avoids returning to service at mount vernon and
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_02: he along with many of the other enslaved people who escaped
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_02: to nova scotia faced you know poor conditions bad opportunities no surprise in 1792
• 1:30:27
  SPEAKER_02: a private company backed by the british plans a settlement
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_02: in sierra leone called freetown and they offer the opportunity
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_02: to many free enslaved people living in or formerly enslaved people living
• 1:30:41
  SPEAKER_02: in nova scotia to go to sierra leone and start this settlement
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_02: when they get there the conditions are awful and in 1792 uh
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_02: in 1800 sorry they've been there for a few years the obviously
• 1:30:56
  SPEAKER_02: the private british backed company
• 1:30:57
  SPEAKER_02: that is funding this settlement are like not honoring what they said they would do
• 1:31:03
  SPEAKER_02: they're not paying people the way they said they would all these things um there's
• 1:31:08
  SPEAKER_02: an uprising led in part by henry washington he's like a really interesting character
• 1:31:13
  SPEAKER_02: in this whole drama
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_02: and he gets banished across the sierra leone river to where he to
• 1:31:21
  SPEAKER_02: a place called bullam shore where he died in 1800 but part of
• 1:31:26
  SPEAKER_02: the uprising was suppressed with the help of 600 jamaican maroons
• 1:31:30
  SPEAKER_02: who had been living independently who are also sent to sierra leone to settle it
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_02: so there's like kind of
• 1:31:38
  SPEAKER_02: the way that freedom as an opportunity is manipulated still for the financial gain
• 1:31:44
  SPEAKER_02: of the british or the americans in these situations is also like obviously
• 1:31:48
  SPEAKER_02: a fascinating legacy um
• 1:31:52
  SPEAKER_02: and the other thing that i just want to end on
• 1:31:58
  SPEAKER_02: because it's also so important is like so for example so a lot of the native people
• 1:32:04
  SPEAKER_02: who are fighting
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_02: fought alongside the british because they thought that was their best hope
• 1:32:11
  SPEAKER_02: of maintaining the rights to their lands because they weren't
• 1:32:15
  SPEAKER_02: the british weren't physically there and the americans had already demonstrated
• 1:32:18
  SPEAKER_02: that all that they wanted was to take over these territories
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_02: so it's like it makes sense as an alignment it was not about like
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_02: the king versus like to them it was all the same um
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_02: and they they were just looking out for their own interest
• 1:32:34
  SPEAKER_02: but by the time the um wait i'm trying to find the name
• 1:32:38
  SPEAKER_02: of i think his name was joseph brant
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_02: was um a leader i don't have it
• 1:32:47
  SPEAKER_02: in my notes i really had written this down i don't know
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_02: where i put it anyway joseph brant who's like a leader of
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_02: the haudenosaunee federation he
• 1:32:59
  SPEAKER_02: is like hopeful that these diplomatic relations with the british like even once
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_02: the british lose the war that in the treaty that settles the territories in
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_02: the end like they'll acknowledge
• 1:33:10
  SPEAKER_02: the i mean like many young native men died like they they really were like crucial
• 1:33:18
  SPEAKER_02: to the british victories that were won like they they played a significant role in
• 1:33:23
  SPEAKER_02: the war in the treaty of 1783 it's not just that they weren't
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_02: defended they are not mentioned
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_02: at all they are completely left out there's like no consideration even
• 1:33:37
  SPEAKER_02: of their contribution and that i think for a lot
• 1:33:40
  SPEAKER_02: of native people was like like worse than being sold out
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_02: just being like just being implied that they didn't even exist exactly yeah
• 1:33:52
  SPEAKER_02: and are left out of that history and it's like to this day like obviously
• 1:33:56
  SPEAKER_02: when people talk about the american revolution they're very rarely talking about
• 1:34:00
  SPEAKER_02: the primary landholders whose like property was at stake in that revolution which is
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_01: the native americans yeah it is pretty shocking it's shocking
• 1:34:13
  SPEAKER_02: um i didn't talk at all about you know the battles
• 1:34:15
  SPEAKER_02: but that's okay i'm not interested they shot people their cannons there were hills
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_02: they looked out and i said whoa whoa the british won the battle but lost
• 1:34:27
  SPEAKER_02: the war type of stuff um i mean
• 1:34:31
  SPEAKER_02: the other like really interesting thing throughout learning about this all was like
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_02: which I feel like maybe is a good note to end on because I think it's
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_02: so relevant today as well is this question of whether the revolution was driven by
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_02: an ideological motor that brought people to action or whether this action
• 1:34:54
  SPEAKER_02: and these events created a drive towards an ideology that ended up like
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_02: become something that they rallied behind but it's a later edition i tend to think
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_02: the latter so basically like in the 1770s like when the boston massacre
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_02: and stuff is happening like before common sense is published
• 1:35:15
  SPEAKER_02: democracy is like the equivalent of what how people talk about socialism now as
• 1:35:19
  SPEAKER_02: if it's like this evil like anarchy you know like or a dream state or
• 1:35:25
  SPEAKER_02: a dream state this utopian thing but it's like it was not like something
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_02: the average people were interested in at all even though like it became clear
• 1:35:34
  SPEAKER_02: that it would be better for them which is like social i feel like
• 1:35:37
  SPEAKER_02: the way people talk about socialism as if it's like leninist communism is similar
• 1:35:42
  SPEAKER_01: well yeah and people are like well how would it work like what would i do
• 1:35:45
  SPEAKER_01: with my property what all these things it's it's the same like exercise
• 1:35:49
  SPEAKER_01: and imagination to try to dream up a different structure the quote that i love
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_02: from it was this boston minister who said would you rather be ruled
• 1:35:57
  SPEAKER_02: by one tyrant three thousand miles away or three thousand tyrants not but
• 1:36:00
  SPEAKER_02: a mile away god i don't know i can't choose you can't choose and so like a lot
• 1:36:07
  SPEAKER_02: of there was a good episode of past present future
• 1:36:11
  SPEAKER_02: is that what that podcast is called yeah yeah about this and like how basically all
• 1:36:16
  SPEAKER_02: of these events and all of this violence like then figures like sam adams
• 1:36:22
  SPEAKER_02: and thomas paine were really good at converting that energy into an energy
• 1:36:29
  SPEAKER_02: and agreement with the political system that they wanted which was democracy but
• 1:36:34
  SPEAKER_02: that that was not like a foregone conclusion and even
• 1:36:39
  SPEAKER_02: to talk about sacrifice or about like the figures in this war like by the end of
• 1:36:44
  SPEAKER_02: the war when they're trying to figure out then they have
• 1:36:46
  SPEAKER_02: the constitutional convention they're trying to figure out the structure of
• 1:36:49
  SPEAKER_02: the government a lot of people want to just make george washington king
• 1:36:54
  SPEAKER_01: and he says no and like his head was too big to hold a crown or something
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think he genuinely believed in democracy and what he was fighting for
• 1:37:05
  SPEAKER_02: but I think they're so baffled by the possibility of what next
• 1:37:10
  SPEAKER_02: after freeing themselves from the king that a lot
• 1:37:12
  SPEAKER_02: of people are like well we could just have a different king but I think it's kind
• 1:37:18
  SPEAKER_02: of amazing that he turned that down even
• 1:37:19
  SPEAKER_02: though obviously there's all these other points in the story where he's not
• 1:37:22
  SPEAKER_02: a good guy
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_02: but to be at the end of like offered this absolute power and
• 1:37:27
  SPEAKER_02: to say like no that's not what we just did this for is kind
• 1:37:30
  SPEAKER_01: of spectacular i think yeah so i guess the question is madeline do you wish me
• 1:37:36
  SPEAKER_02: a happy fourth of july i do i think okay because in spite of the fact
• 1:37:41
  SPEAKER_02: that i just spent this whole time talking about all of the sort of failings of
• 1:37:45
  SPEAKER_02: the revolution and the ways that it's uh not all it's cracked up to be
• 1:37:53
  SPEAKER_02: i do still i was like really moved by these
• 1:37:59
  SPEAKER_02: people willing to like commit
• 1:38:02
  SPEAKER_02: to give up their lives for like an idea wait sorry
• 1:38:07
  SPEAKER_01: were you going to reference the real housewives of rhode island episode about
• 1:38:11
  SPEAKER_01: the fourth of july where the women debate what the fourth of july is
• 1:38:13
  SPEAKER_02: about do you remember this no what happened you get i didn't watch the end of
• 1:38:18
  SPEAKER_01: the season i didn't finish the season it's like in the third episode
• 1:38:21
  SPEAKER_01: or something it's the fourth of july someone's throwing a party and then
• 1:38:24
  SPEAKER_01: the producers clearly are like do you know what the fourth of july is about
• 1:38:27
  SPEAKER_01: and she's like um like columbus and then she she's like the nina
• 1:38:31
  SPEAKER_01: the santa maria like she names the ships it's so crazy
• 1:38:35
  SPEAKER_02: that also happens on ladies of london maybe or like one
• 1:38:40
  SPEAKER_03: of them no no i think you're right but one of them is like talking to her son
• 1:38:43
  SPEAKER_03: and she they're celebrating the fourth of july the american one
• 1:38:47
  SPEAKER_03: and he's like she's like do you know why why we celebrate
• 1:38:52
  SPEAKER_03: and he's like american independence and she's like from whom
• 1:38:55
  SPEAKER_02: and he's like don't know can't think of it and they're in london yeah they're
• 1:39:00
  SPEAKER_02: in london
• 1:39:02
  SPEAKER_01: um yeah i think anyway back away from the reality tv i agree
• 1:39:07
  SPEAKER_01: with you i think there is something to reflect upon in this holiday and i hope
• 1:39:12
  SPEAKER_01: that we continue
• 1:39:13
  SPEAKER_01: to interrogate american history i feel like we should do yeah we're gonna do
• 1:39:17
  SPEAKER_01: a follow-up episode about 1876 but like maybe we should read the declaration
• 1:39:21
  SPEAKER_01: of independence and discuss it i know i was wondering
• 1:39:23
  SPEAKER_02: if we should read common sense apparently it's very readable okay let's pick up
• 1:39:27
  SPEAKER_02: a pamphlet
• 1:39:28
  SPEAKER_02: and i think like i mean i'm excited to talk about 1876 because i think so much of
• 1:39:33
  SPEAKER_02: the version of the american revolution we hear is like from that period like
• 1:39:39
  SPEAKER_02: the long fellow midnight ride of paul revere that emerson you know shot heard around
• 1:39:45
  SPEAKER_02: the world like all of that stuff the washington irving stories are like from
• 1:39:49
  SPEAKER_03: that mid 19th century moment yeah
• 1:39:53
  SPEAKER_01: nostalgia it's very powerful it's one hell of
• 1:39:56
  SPEAKER_01: a drug love it all right you guys like subscribe tell your friends play
• 1:40:01
  SPEAKER_03: the episode this is a stranger eat a hot dog i don't care about what you do with
• 1:40:05
  SPEAKER_02: the hot with the podcast the hot dog i don't care whether whether you share and like
• 1:40:13
  SPEAKER_02: the podcast as long as you just have an amazing fourth
• 1:40:15
  SPEAKER_03: of july god bless america bye i love you
• 1:40:22
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