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Projecting for the Future: opportunities and challenges for the project profession · Project Podcast

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Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
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the editor of Project, APM's quarterly journal and your host
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in this podcast. I'm speaking to Doctor Sarah
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Haji Kazemi and Professor Eunice Matarina Sanchez, 2 co-authors,
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along with Graham Winch of AP M's latest report Projecting for
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the Future, Harmonising Energy and environment.
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Sarah is senior lecturer in engineering project management
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at Queen Mary University of London and Eunice is professor
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in project management at Alliance Manchester Business
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School. APM launched Projecting the
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Future in 2019 to debate the challenges and opportunities for
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the profession. Building on the 2017 Future of
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Project Management exercise conducted by Arab and University
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College London, this latest study represents A5 year update
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on The Big Conversation and was conducted to provide insights
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into what the profession sees as the most important future trends
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that are likely to impact the way project managers practise
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their profession. To identify what might need to
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change in its professional practise as we progress.
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Sarah and Eunice are here to present some of the findings
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report covers and to give you an overview of its recommendations.
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There'll be plenty food for thought, so welcome Sarah and
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welcome Eunice. Thank you for finding the time.
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Thank you for having. Us it's a pleasure.
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I I think it would be useful for people to get a bit of
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background on the projecting the future research APM has been
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involved with over the past five years.
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Do do you want to give us a bit of background?
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So the background, so as you said this, this goes back quite
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a while back through that initial conversation that APM
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started in that those leadership thought leadership initiatives.
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So it builds on that work that Arab and UCL did in 2017, really
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trying to understand what the future of project management
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was. And they identified those seven
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global trends that would impact the way that we manage projects.
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So shifting a work patterns, for example, the way that the
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decentralizations of working, the shift in innovation cultures
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in many organisations, automation and so on.
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And that report concluded with a call for further reflection on
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the future of the profession. And that, of course, was taken
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up by Tim Banfield. And that led to a series of
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those golden thread conversations, which led to
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those six very useful papers where they identified.
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So these are the big trends that we're seeing that will really
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have an impact on the profession.
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So AI, big data, climate change, the changes in demographics, so
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the ageing population and the impact that would have in terms
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of our the need of our infrastructure, transport, smart
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cities, urbanizations, really thinking now in terms of systems
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of systems and again, the future of work and scales.
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So overall, those reports really aim to show the importance of
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projects, how important projects and how important the effective
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management of projects are not only to the UK society but also
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to the economy. So this is almost the third
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cycle of reflection. That golden thread conversation
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was of course paused because of the COVID pandemic.
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So we wanted to, you know, bring it up, bring it back to life.
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And so this report really is the opportunity to have that third
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cycle of reflection really thinking more in terms of what
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does this mean for net 0 targets, for example?
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So this is really huge big picture stuff about societal
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trends, economic trends, environmental trends, which is I
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imagine it's a hugely important thing to read for project
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managers and project leaders to put everything into context and
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picks up. And as he said, the system of
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systems, because everything's connected.
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And it seems to me that more and more as as projects go forward,
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that you can't just do it in isolation.
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I mean, everything is linked to the benefits are linked and the
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outcomes are linked. So this is really interesting
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stuff. So I wonder what has been
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achieved by the profession over the past five years.
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You've got this big kind of bigger perspective.
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So with your kind of lens on things, what would you say the
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achievements have been? Yes.
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So obviously it's Needless to say that projects have always
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made and they continue to make huge contributions to the
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economy and to the society all around the world.
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But if you want to specifically say what has been achieved by
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the profession in the past five years, I think we can look into
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how they have actually changed or managed to adapt to the new
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trends. So we can see that, you know,
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projects and we're talking about UK and mostly the developed
5:25
countries, but they have managed to adopt more effective project
5:30
management methodologies, agile hybrid approaches have the use
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of them have increased in every sector, digital tools and
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technologies. Obviously they have
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revolutionised the the management of projects and also
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the the profession has has managed to, to to a high degree,
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adapt to the new trends. Basically in this area as well,
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there's been a huge change in the way of working and I think
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this is probably post COVID, the remote working which has again
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changed almost every sector, including the project, the
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project management profession as well.
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And obviously there has have been lots of development in
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developing the skills for virtual working and remote
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working as well. And I can say finally, probably
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there's there's much more focus on obviously sustainability, at
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least in the conversations within the profession.
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Now it's it's a different thing if you know if everything, all
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the sustainability principles are actually being implemented.
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But at least the conversation has very seriously begun.
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Yeah, absolutely. I agree with all those points.
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I think, you know, in the report we look back at where we have
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been, where we are now and where we we could go, where we might
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go in the future. And the points that Sarah made
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are very much linked to what we've seen, what was noted in
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the trends. But what has a project
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profession achieved in the past five years?
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For me, I can go a little bit beyond, if you may, how we
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responded to the pandemic and the role that projects, the role
7:19
that the profession made to that response was incredible.
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And I think as a profession, we should be really, really proud
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and really say, look at what we can achieve in in those moments
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of crisis, how flexible, how adaptable, how responsive we
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are. And it links to that point that
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Sarah made. The other thing that really
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resonates with me and it's also the role projects are playing
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and have played in relation to responding to the grand
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challenges. And we can see many examples of
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those to be able to respond. And I think that also offers
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additional challenges, brings additional challenges to the
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profession, but also great opportunities.
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And I think something else is the I think more and more you
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hear, especially in own organisations, the importance,
8:09
the importance of projects for achieving their strategic goals.
8:15
So we know that as a profession, we've been talking about that
8:18
for decades now. But I think now it's really
8:23
being recognised how important projects, programmes and their
8:28
effective management are to that strategic level of the
8:31
organisation and how important it is to have a project
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professional sitting at that C-Suite level.
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So some really big thoughts there.
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I think you've perfectly both of you have captured that, that
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bigger picture. And I feel it's almost the
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trajectory of project management and it's professionalisation as
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well and the seriousness with which it's now taken.
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I don't know. I interviewed people throughout
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the pandemic and the project professionals who were keeping
9:03
companies afloat that the companies turned to them to make
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their retail business online only.
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You know, finding the vaccine was a project and I think it did
9:14
an incredible amount to boost the kind of reputation for the
9:18
professional, give people a greater understanding of what it
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actually meant means to be in project management.
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So it's nice to hear that you would agree with that.
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I guess we've covered a bit about how projects themselves
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have been changing over the past five years, and you've talked
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about various ways of running projects.
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And I guess that taps in to the mindset, you know, to thrive
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these days. You know, it's about having
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adaptability, about being, having greater agility.
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So for people who are listening, we've got the kind of big
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picture context. But if you were to speak to an
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individual who's listening right now and give them advice about
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how they should approach their projects, is there a particular
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mindset or point of view that they should take?
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Because everyone talks about the constantly changing world.
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I mean, it's a roller coaster right now, isn't it?
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Is there any anything you've noticed that you'd pass on?
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I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all advice is for
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me, it's a really focus on the on the outcome.
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And we've started to hear more and more on that rather than
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just, you know, traditionally project management was all about
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deliver the output, do the work, deliver the output.
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But actually it's not about that.
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It's really thinking about that long term strategic outcome.
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What's the value, what's the benefit that's that output will
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deliver for the owner and operator?
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And I think it's that's, that's important to keep in mind, as I
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say to our executives and our students, you know, that's the,
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for me, that's your North Star, That's you should that's your
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guiding light. So always focus on on the
11:10
outcome, really be outcome focus or if you want that mindset of
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outcome focus and really trying to recognise that value is
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important. Thank you.
11:22
Eunice. Sarah, is there anything you
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wanted to add to that? Yes.
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Well, while I fully agree with with what Eunice said, I want to
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also bring another angle. Yes.
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So the, the kind of having that value oriented kind of mindset
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and seeing the outcome is obviously very important, but I
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think it's also as important to have a focus on, on the process
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as well. So how we kind of, you know,
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lead from from point A to point B and what needs to be
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recognised in a close throughout that process.
11:57
So you mentioned Emma in the, you know, in your question that,
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you know, we are in a, in a constantly changing environment
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and there's a need for adaptability, high level of
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adaptability and flexibility. So the first step, I think, or
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the first kind of recommendation would be to acknowledge that we
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are in a very volatile market and environment and there's need
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for kind of changing the mindset of we've always done it this way
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because it's, it's not going to work like that.
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Things are, you know, changing dramatically, you know, with I
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guess everyone's, you know, thinking about generating of AI
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and how you know, everyone's lives are going to change
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because of that in every, every aspect of life.
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So really having kind of being ready to accept that there are
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changes and we need to be adaptable and flexible.
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And we can't really confidently say this is the way we've done
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it in the past 30 years, especially, you know, those are
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more experienced. And that's how we should
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continue to do it. So I think there's a need for a
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shift in the mindset. That's really interesting.
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One of the questions I had was around the the biggest
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challenges that have sprung up over the past five years and you
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already there mentioned generative AI is, is that is
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that whole area the the biggest challenge facing project
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professionals? Yes.
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So that the disruption of new, the new and rapid pace of
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technology change as Sarah was saying, yes, absolutely.
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But that has been, we've always talked about that, haven't we?
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I think it's now it's just that pace of change and the, as Sarah
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said, how the profession really needs to adapt, to stay updated,
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to really think about how they're going to integrate all
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that into their ways of working into those processes, into the
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practises, how you scale and upscale or rescale for that.
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And that's really that's resource intensive.
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So it's really, as Sarah said, requires a change of mindset.
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We can't continue to managing and delivering the projects the
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way we have done because our context is changing.
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And it's recognising that things that are continue to be
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challenge challenges is the resource managing and retaining
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our resources. And that's been a point of
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discussion over many years, but we still have it.
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You know, you come, you develop published the reports indicating
14:37
how many project managers are required over the next 10 years
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in these different sectors. And the demand for project
14:46
managers is out. You know, for me it's
14:49
incredible. And, and there's still needs to,
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we still need to be able to manage and develop and retain
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those resources. Perhaps also another challenge,
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building on what Sarah said, is that adapting to new ways of
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working, new working practises, new working patterns.
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It's important the given the context that we're living in
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now, also being able to deal with uncertainty and that fast
15:19
change that requires a different mindset as well.
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And of course, I think for me, it's the last point before I
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hand over to Sarah, is really thinking about how we integrate
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both the environmental, the social considerations into the
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project. That continues to be a big
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challenge. As Sarah says, we talk about it,
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but I we know from at least from our focus groups, you know, that
15:44
still contains well, how do we make that happen practically?
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What does that look like? We need more skills, we need
15:50
knowledge and we really need to think about how we're going to
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measure it. What does that look like?
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I couldn't agree more with, with the points Eunice made.
15:59
And I can, I can build on, on the, the final point that Eunice
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mentioned that we're, we're, and, and this is again, not, not
16:07
just Europe, not just UK, but you know, it's, it's a global
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kind of shift that we're moving away from fossil fuel based
16:14
economy to renewable energy based economy.
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And, and this raises lots of lots of challenges on its own
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with obviously less resources, obviously, so kind of limited
16:29
resources, but also a much stronger emphasis on
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sustainability. And that is in every all the
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three pillars of sustainability. So society, social
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sustainability, environmental and economy as well.
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So I guess if we want to summarise it's I think
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generative AI and moving away from fossil fuel based economy
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is are the main 2 challenges for the profession.
16:53
OK, thank you. But we've spent a lot of time
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talking about the challenges. What about the findings and
16:59
recommendations from from the survey?
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There were ten I think. So could you talk us through
17:03
some of the most important ones because we won't be able to
17:05
cover all of them, but if there were, you know, a few that you
17:08
wanted to talk about, that would be really interesting.
17:12
In in the report, when we look back at where the profession has
17:15
come from, the contribution it has made, when we look at it
17:18
through the lens of the industrial revolutions, I think
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one thing that certainly comes out that we, we should I suppose
17:26
be more vocal of, of is the profession's ownership of the
17:31
role of the projector. Our role is projecting to that
17:38
future. What do you mean by that?
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What? What is the projection?
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What do you mean projecting? One of the key capabilities we
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see as as part of the as a project manager project
17:51
professional is their ability capability of visioning.
17:56
You know, we talk about projects as future orientated endeavours.
18:00
We project an idea forward, and indeed, that's where the term
18:04
project comes from, to project to throw an idea forward in, in
18:08
space and time. And that's what we mean by the
18:11
projector. So really thinking about how we
18:15
create and articulate the narratives about what that
18:19
future could look like, and then thinking about, as Sarah said,
18:24
that process, right, if that's where we want to get to, that's
18:28
us projecting that idea forward. This is how we can achieve that.
18:32
So for me, it's really harnessing and really exploring
18:36
the that role as a projector because we are now really
18:44
drawing on our historical contribution.
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You know, that idea comes from the foe.
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It's, it's not us, it comes from the foe's work, really thinking
18:55
about the historical contribution that projects have
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had, as we said to economy and society and to the development
19:02
and really trying to connect that more strongly to the
19:05
profession's contribution to now the environmental, the society
19:11
aspirations of the future. Just trying to, to bridge those.
19:16
So that for me is a really important thing that we that is
19:20
worth exploring. Sorry, just for listeners who
19:24
might not know who you mean by Defoe, who are you talking
19:27
about? He's the one that wrote the book
19:30
and I have it here. Danny Defoe, a tour through the
19:35
whole island of Great Britain. So he was actually working for,
19:40
I can't remember which king you're going to put me on the
19:42
spot, but presented the idea to the king of investing in
19:47
projects for enhancing the development of the country, and
19:53
he came up with the idea of the projector.
19:56
Which century was that? So yeah, defo 1697 is the quote.
20:03
So that's good homework for listeners if they want to find
20:06
out more, go and look him up. Were there any other
20:10
recommendations or findings that you wanted to talk about
20:12
particularly? We make recommendations for the
20:16
APM in terms of looking at how we can develop a profession,
20:23
really focusing on leadership development for the profession.
20:28
Think we also make recommendations about the role
20:34
of APM in helping develop some sort of framework to help the
20:39
profession. I suppose measure the
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sustainability practises if you like.
20:46
So that's something that came out of the report.
20:49
Yeah, I mean, Sarah, were there any challenges or
20:51
recommendations? Sorry, any recommendations you
20:53
you wanted to discuss? I just think it's, well, we're
20:59
talking about our own work. So, so I hope this doesn't come
21:01
across as, but I think the beauty of this report is that
21:06
there are recommendations for, for everyone, you know, every,
21:10
every, at every level at every stage of, of career.
21:14
If you look at, you know, the project managers and project
21:17
scholars as well, and I guess everyone can, can pick what's
21:22
you know resonates well with, with what they're doing in the
21:26
context of their work. For me, what, what was, you
21:30
know, the, the highlight of, of the report, I think it was on,
21:34
on the role of, of human beings in projects.
21:37
So starting with the role of the project leader, the importance
21:40
of the role of a project leader beyond just being basically an
21:47
administrator, someone who just does project reviews and looks
21:50
at timelines and you know, all these baselines, but actually
21:53
the effect that they can have on the project team and on the the
21:59
outcome of the project. So, so the importance of the
22:02
role of the project leader and skills that they need to develop
22:06
as a project leader to successfully take the team or
22:11
you know, go from point A to point B as we say.
22:14
So bring that change which is intended by the project.
22:17
So what? What would be?
22:18
What would be a key skills that a successful project leader in
22:22
2025 would need to have in order to achieve that?
22:27
So, well, I think this would probably go beyond this kind of
22:31
the scope of this podcast because there's a wide range of
22:34
obviously hard and soft scales if we want to just kind of
22:38
really on a nut in a nutshell, I, I guess it's being open, open
22:44
to the changes, being flexible and adaptable to their
22:48
environment. But one element which is quite
22:50
very close to my heart as well is, is the equality, diversity
22:55
and inclusion element and the importance of it beyond just
22:59
performative kind of, you know, ticking the boxes really.
23:03
So it's not just so nice to have.
23:05
It's, it's necessary in this era that principles are implemented
23:11
in every, every project organisation and every project.
23:15
So at every level really. And how, how well is the
23:18
profession, just anecdotally or whether you've done research on
23:20
this or not, but how well is the profession doing on this, on
23:24
this particular trajectory? Well, I guess there's a
23:28
recognition of it. So the conversation again, it's
23:33
part of, you know, it also kind of it's under the bigger
23:35
umbrella of sustainability. So the conversation has begun.
23:38
There's awareness, but there's a, there's a gap between being
23:43
aware of it and being actually able to implement it in
23:46
day-to-day activities. It's very sector, it's very
23:50
different from sectors to sector.
23:52
So I think it's, it's no secret that the construction sector
23:55
obviously has traditionally been, you know, male dominated
24:01
and the culture is quite different from from other
24:07
sectors because of the nature. Of of the work.
24:11
So it, it depends. I, I think there's definitely
24:15
has, has been advancements and developments, but there's a long
24:18
way to go and that's in every of, of EDI.
24:22
So it's not just gender quantity, there are lots of
24:25
other elements in other areas that we need to take into
24:29
account. Can I just build on on what
24:34
Sarah was saying about this sort of the the your question around
24:39
what skills, leadership skills and how is the profession doing?
24:43
So in the report we had, we do highlight, you know, there is a
24:47
need to think more broadly in terms of those leadership
24:51
capabilities for how we lead projects in the future.
24:55
And if, if we want really put the project profession to have a
24:59
seat at that senior level, boardroom at corporate level,
25:06
then we really need to think about this.
25:07
So we do talk about some, we talk about more leadership
25:11
capabilities or domains rather than specific skills and we
25:14
present the leadership models. So one of the, we have 5, let's
25:19
say, key things that project leaders need to to recognise
25:26
that their capability to project, to create that vision
25:30
of the future, their capabilities also to make sense
25:36
of that context, that changing context and be able to
25:39
articulate that sense made their ability to develop
25:44
relationships. So they're relating
25:45
capabilities, which links to, you know, their stakeholder
25:50
engagement to their teams and their creativity, their ability
25:55
to be innovative, to think of different ways of doing things
25:59
and not sticking to all patterns.
26:01
But with all of those things together, you know, if you if
26:05
you're able to, to make sense with others, if you're able to
26:11
create that compelling vision of the future, you can also
26:14
generate new and better ways of doing things.
26:17
And then at the centre, I think that's the key capability that's
26:22
bringing all those together is your ability of judging, making
26:27
judgments, your wisdom, in other words, that builds on all that
26:32
experience, all that intuition, your own values.
26:37
And that's what's important. And we see that now with many
26:41
organisations that we've been working with that want to
26:44
develop their project leadership capabilities.
26:47
This is something that we work with them to say, OK, how can
26:51
you develop and enhance those to think more strategically so you
26:55
can have those conversations at their corporate level as well as
27:00
with with their project delivery team or with their suppliers or
27:04
with their contractors, subcontractors, etcetera.
27:09
So many interesting things you've mentioned.
27:10
I've never heard someone ask project leaders to be creative,
27:15
But you're so right, because it's about problem solving, it's
27:18
about innovation. And that, I mean, it sounds
27:22
really interesting. I'm, you know, maybe I'll become
27:24
a project leader one day, but it's, it's so much to, to take
27:28
in. I you've been talking about
27:31
projectors, but that leads me to ask about the future.
27:36
So you've kind of taken stock of where we've been for the past
27:39
five years and longer, But how, where will the future take the
27:42
profession and how optimistic do you feel about the future for
27:46
the profession? Sarah, if you want to, if you
27:49
would like to give your views first, that'd be that'd be
27:51
great. Right.
27:53
So I think your question has two parts.
27:55
So the first one is how, how the project will, how the project
28:00
profession will will change over in the next in the future.
28:07
Well, I guess, I guess the challenges that we, we already
28:10
mentioned kind of it's maps to, to, you know, the changes that
28:14
will will come again. And I, and I suppose it's, you
28:19
know, it's become a cliche because everyone's talking about
28:21
generative AI these days in every context.
28:24
But but it's important. It's going to change things,
28:26
it's going to change everything. And again, this goes back to to
28:30
development of skills for. For project.
28:32
Leaders and, and, you know, the profession as a whole, I think
28:36
it's very important that the the profession recognises that
28:42
generative AI will become a part of, you know, part of how we
28:47
work. It's, you know, there's lots of
28:50
resistance against it, I know, especially in in certain
28:54
sectors, but we have to accept it and we have to learn how to
28:59
to best take advantage of it. So I think part of the report,
29:03
it is a nice kind of summary of three ways that, you know,
29:07
generative AI can be used. And it's important that project
29:10
leaders recognise which one to use at what stage of the project
29:15
and what, you know, when to use it really.
29:17
So one of them is, is that generative AI is going to
29:20
automate lots of the work that we do.
29:24
It can. The second one is that you can
29:25
assist us in the ways that we do things and, you know, at a
29:30
higher level, it can actually help with complex decision
29:33
making. So I guess it's important that a
29:36
project leaders kind of, you know, develop the skills to, to
29:41
make a decision or a judgement on when to use generative AI,
29:47
how to use it so that, you know, the, IT can kind of help the
29:53
project to succeed and achieve its, its vision.
29:58
And also, obviously, again, this goes hand in hand.
30:01
Projects are becoming much more complex.
30:04
So the traditional project management methodologies.
30:07
So the volume of data that we have and the velocity of the
30:11
data and the variety of the data.
30:13
Again, I'm taking this from the report.
30:15
It's going to overwhelm the traditional project management
30:17
methods. So, so we can't really continue
30:19
doing the same thing with, you know, with data that we have
30:23
today and the size and scope of the projects.
30:29
So it's about using the right tools for analysing and being
30:37
able to to act on the data that we can collect and it's
30:42
available to projects. That's a yeah, very interesting
30:46
point. I hadn't no one's ever mentioned
30:48
that before. The fact that it can be
30:50
overwhelmingly amount of data. So things cannot carry on as
30:53
they they have been if you're going to use that in any kind of
30:56
useful way. Thank you.
30:59
Sarah. Eunice, was there, was there
31:01
anything you wanted to raise? What does the future hold for
31:05
the project profession? I wish I was.
31:07
I'm not in Oracle. I wish I was.
31:10
You don't have a crystal ball. I.
31:11
Don't have a crystal ball prediction as Neil, Neil Sport
31:15
said is very difficult, especially when we want to
31:18
predict the future. So I think again, it's building
31:22
on the trends that have been reported and of course the
31:26
things that we're seeing right day-to-day and that we're
31:28
experiencing as as Sarah said during as as we are managing our
31:33
projects. I think the future offers great
31:39
opportunities and challenges. I mean, that's that's the world
31:44
we live in. I think there are two things
31:47
that we need to consider. The first one, as Sarah said,
31:49
the implications of digitalization for practise all
31:53
the elements that she she mentioned and consider also how
31:57
the profession is set up for the challenges of addressing Net 0
32:04
alongside the SDGS, although those will are coming up soon.
32:11
Let's see what the UN comes up with.
32:14
But I think those are still valid.
32:16
So I think building on the point that Sarah made is really posing
32:22
back the question to the profession, what do you need to
32:26
change and how are you going to change to be able to really take
32:31
on board both the challenges and the opportunities of
32:34
digitization and of addressing the net zero challenges and the
32:39
profession From the focus groups we did, they're very aware, they
32:43
recognise them. I think they just need some
32:48
support and overarching framework that will just
32:53
principles. I would say this is these are
32:55
the principles we're working towards as a profession and
32:59
they're ready, they're ready to respond.
33:01
They just need those guiding principles.
33:02
And I think that's where APM can help to set that framework and
33:08
those guiding principles for the profession, then to continue
33:11
thriving and continue to contribute to to the society and
33:18
to be able to meet those challenges for the future.
33:23
Thank you. Eunice, if there's one thing
33:26
that you'd like listeners to take away from this podcast,
33:30
what what might that be a thought or an action?
33:34
What, what springs to mind, Sarah?
33:38
Yes. So it was difficult to choose
33:42
one area because, you know, the report touches upon lots of, you
33:46
know, a diverse range of areas. But again, so, so it's my
33:51
personal choice of what I think, you know, what kind of I can
33:55
personally relate to. And I think it's very important.
34:00
I think again, it goes back to the, to the project leaders
34:03
role. And I believe if I want to just,
34:07
you know, put a keyword out, I think ethical leadership,
34:11
probably ethical leadership kind of, I think it nicely covers all
34:15
that needs to be to be done. So because most of the
34:19
challenges that we face these days and we talk about climate
34:23
change, inequality, all these kind of technological
34:27
disruptions, environmental issues, they're all really kind
34:31
of deeply societal and human challenges really.
34:38
So it's important that project professionals also recognise
34:43
this, acknowledge it and also take make ethical decisions
34:49
during the project. I, I read an article a few weeks
34:54
ago and I thought that, that I found it very interesting was
34:57
that, you know, one of the things that we or project
35:00
managers are told or have been traditionally told was that, you
35:02
know, we're a project manager needs to be objective.
35:05
But maybe maybe they shouldn't, maybe they shouldn't be
35:07
objective. Maybe they should actually
35:08
question the ways of working or question the status quo and also
35:13
invite others in their capacity as a project leader, bring that
35:17
change into the their teams as well and, and question the ways
35:21
of working and the values. And that was that is only the
35:26
only way that, you know, you can, we can make sure that
35:29
obviously the principles of EDI and you know, the sustainable
35:33
development goals are actually going to be hopefully achieved.
35:37
It's it's, it's the first steps towards that direction, let's
35:40
say. Well, I mean, that's brilliant
35:42
because I think of project professionals as being change
35:45
makers. They make change happen.
35:47
And I think many people that I've I've interviewed over the
35:49
past few years have they feel that agency and the fact that
35:53
they can, they can change things.
35:55
So as an individual, when you're approaching a project, how can
35:59
you become an activist and and with a very small a but to make
36:04
the change you want to see happen.
36:06
So that that shines very well. Thank you.
36:10
Eunice, what would be your kind of parting thoughtful listeners?
36:14
I think I'll build on Sarah's point about that ethical
36:17
leadership. I was thinking about really
36:21
asking our, the project profession to really reflect on
36:26
their role within the context that they they work in, within
36:29
that context that we've described.
36:31
Think about their role and their responsibilities because that's
36:35
going to frame their decision making.
36:38
But really think about where their areas for development are.
36:43
So recognise their strengths, but really identify where their
36:46
areas for development are giving this change in context and
36:50
restart thinking about where that continuous learning needs
36:55
to take place. So I would say what's think
36:59
about your learning journey, that path, where do you want to
37:04
go to given giving this changing context?
37:07
I think for for the project profession, we need to really
37:11
start thinking about upscaling and rescaling.
37:14
I think for me, that's part of the culture that the profession
37:18
should have, giving that we are agents of change.
37:22
That's what projects are the mechanisms.
37:25
For delivery change. A mechanism for delivering
37:28
change. Absolutely right that I was just
37:30
about to say that's the perfect way turn to podcast.
37:32
I thought you'd give me lots of food for thought, but I feel as
37:35
though you've given me an entire tasting menu.
37:37
There's so much to eat up there. So there's there's something for
37:41
everyone. And it just leads me to to kind
37:43
of thank both of you for sharing your research with us.
37:48
And for those who are listening, if you want to find out more
37:51
about the Projecting the Future report, you can get hold of a
37:54
copy on the APM website. You'll find all the details
37:56
there. So just leaves me to say, don't
37:59
forget to look out for more episodes or to rating reviews
38:02
wherever you get your podcasts. We'd welcome you to get in touch
38:05
with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at
38:09
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. And Spotify users can also send
38:14
us feedback directly within the Spotify app.
38:17
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the chartered body
38:20
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
38:23
visit apm.org.uk.