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The Healthy Christian Leader - Growing Through Fellowship | Bruce Havill · Leadership Hub

0:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, hello, friends, and welcome to the Healthy Christian Leader.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm Dwight Habermell, and I have our guest today, Bruce Havill.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Bruce, it's great to have you on the program.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to be here, Dwight.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to have you here because Bruce, you have been such a welcoming person in the environments that I've been in.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: My daughters all glow when they think of uh uh you know Bruce and so do my sons.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so kind.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: They feel very embraced and welcomed.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: Um and you've been an elder in church ministry for uh 50 years this year.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was 28.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Now, for those who are watching, they'd probably never ever guess you're you're well into your 70s.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm almost well out of the 78 in May passed.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: And happy, happy.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: I am so glad.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm hoping when I'm 80, it'll be like the new 77.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: I think it will.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: I think it will.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: And um but you have placed as a priority the welcoming of people into the life of the church.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: And you're a busy guy.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: Like you're your your family have been developers in this city.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: They've they've uh built investment properties, uh, developed land.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh you uh have moved through that and built a successful uh business uh in uh commercial cleaning and uh you've worn many hats and worn a few hats.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: How do you keep people primary amid all the demands that you've had through your journey?
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I think that uh teaching of scripture has been a help to me on that one.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: Um we're told that uh if we're faithful in little things, that uh we'll be given bigger things, greater things to care for.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: And those greater things are people.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: I love to hear that.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, because you know, as a younger leader, we can kind of talk as old cats, so to speak.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: As a younger leader, we think the programs and the businesses and the organizations and what that we build are some of the most valuable things.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: But when you get later in the journey, you look back and you recognize relationships are the biggest thing.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: Don't we?
2:49
SPEAKER_00: We do.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: We really do.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: I saw my uh I saw a son-in-law uh come to know Jesus just because he couldn't resist the love of Christ shown uh by God's grace through us toward him.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: And he was he was fighting it off for a while, and uh he came to know Jesus.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: I had the huge blessing of baptizing that young man, and he's become a wonderful follower, a wonderful disciple of Jesus.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: And uh it was God that gave us the love that we needed, that he needed, but it was a gift from God.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: And it just seems to me, in church settings, as we're gonna be talking about fellowship in a local church, when God sends people to you, I think that what he is saying, that the great shepherd is saying, I'm trusting you to be the under-shepherd, my under-shepherd, for these people that I love very, very much.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Just love them.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: Do you know, Bruce?
4:05
SPEAKER_01: I have noticed through the years that even churches, when they get certain things right, and what I mean is relationally right, yeah, I remember a church that had some conflict that happened within the church among different individuals.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: And they actually came and repented of what was not honoring to the Lord and their relationships.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: And they had been stalled for ten years since that problem.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: And when they got it right, it was almost like God could trust them, and people started coming in their doors.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Coming in their door, yeah.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: And you know, it happened so much over the course of the following year from that repentance prayer that they had to put an addition on the church.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's so beautiful.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: It's an amazing story.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: I had the privilege of being there for uh the night that that um repentance happened.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: And watching the church get right before God.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: But what you're talking about is I what I just heard you share is sometimes God will bring uh individuals who need Jesus into environments where he knows they can be trusted into that environment.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that a that's a beautiful thing?
5:31
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm saying.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: And it's only by his grace that we are counted uh worthy and given that responsibility because they are the greatest treasures that he has for us.
5:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: So um learning to love, of course, can be a pro it is a process.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about the process.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Learning to love.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh goes back quite a ways, but uh over the last, say, 15 years or so, I when I leave my house in the morning, I have a quiet time down by Bedford Basin.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: I went to McDonald's for over 20 years every seven days a week, had my quiet time at McDonald's early in the morning.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: I was often the first person there.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: And so I'd go in with my Bible and my journal, and I would have my quiet time, have a coffee and a low-fat muffin, which I thought was a healthy thing to eat, but I found out they had about 500 calories of sugar in them.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh but anyway, uh I loved being there, loved writing in my journals, loved meeting people, and 22 or 23 years I was there.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: Um COVID comes along, kind of makes that impossible.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: I started going down to Bedford Basin, where I was this morning, and uh just meeting with the Lord there and letting him help me to love people.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: But when I leave my house in the morning, I try to pray.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: God, please help me to love everybody I meet today.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: That's not always easy.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: Because you forget to sometimes I forget to pray it.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: When I'm hanging out with some guys at Tim Hortons, and uh I'm trying to be the light of Jesus in that lovely group of people, it can be pretty rough at times.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I say, you know, guys, I only come for the abuse, right?
7:32
SPEAKER_00: And we get along so well, and yet um there are opportunities, wonderful opportunities, to just be, you know, if some guy brings up the name of Jesus in not a very nice way, I'd say, oh, thanks for bringing my friend into the conversation.
7:53
SPEAKER_00: And so uh I just look for little opportunities like that.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: And and uh, but also, like yesterday, I sent three of the guys just a couple sentences from an article I was reading about um areas from which we derive our identity, and it was about bank accounts, and bank accounts tell us a lot.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, but does our bank account also describe who we are as people?
8:25
SPEAKER_00: Some people may say, oh, look, that guy's got a lot of money in the bank.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: He's very successful.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, has he been living a life of kindness and goodness?
8:34
SPEAKER_00: Has he been living a life of generosity?
8:37
SPEAKER_00: Uh would he care about the poor that he sees uh looking for a handout at an intersection in Halifax?
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Um would he stop if he was walking, saw somebody in need?
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Um is he kind to his wife, loving?
8:51
SPEAKER_00: Is he considerate of his children?
8:53
SPEAKER_00: Is he a good neighbor?
8:55
SPEAKER_00: Bank accounts tell us nothing about those things.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: So I just sent a couple sentences.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: I said maybe this will be some fodder for our conversation tomorrow morning.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: And so this morning, we did have a little conversation about that.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: It's about areas from which we derive value, we derive our identity, and bank accounts could be one.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Right?
9:15
SPEAKER_01: You've developed meaningful relationships both inside the church and outside of the church.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: Now I've heard you just share that you asked the Lord for that heart.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: And that heart not only flowed for his people in the church, but I've just heard that it flowed out of the church into the community, which is so beautiful.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a heart that you shared before God touched you and helped you understand how important people were.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh you were probably more focused on other things.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: Um how have you seen this life of developing meaningful community and meaningful relationships inside the church and out help people grow spiritually?
10:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: I have a very current story for you.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: It's a very beautiful story.
10:22
SPEAKER_00: Um we have a a new couple that have been coming to our church.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: They're from another country.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: He's been here for a year, she's been here for three years.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: And um he came to our country as a Christian, and she was not.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Actually, she followed another very large religious belief system um uh in the world today.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: And um so uh he's a he's a wonderful, wonderful brother.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: Actually, I would call him, I would refer to him as one of the most beautiful men I've ever met.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: His humility, his thoughtfulness, uh, his kindness, his patience, and he has suffered for his faith.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: He's been beaten for his faith in another country.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh he has a back deformity because of that torture.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: And so uh he came to Halifax less than a year ago, uh, started looking for a church.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: Because his wife, who was not a Christian, said, I think you're sad.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: And he goes, Why do you think?
11:41
SPEAKER_00: She said, I think it's because you're not meeting with Christians.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: I think you better find a church.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Let's start looking for a church.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: And in our church, we have now a number of people from his native country.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: And he came, he felt very welcomed.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: And after a few months, he said to his wife, I would like you to come once.
12:05
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't like it, I will never ask you to come again.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Your choice.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: And she came and she saw, as one example, how much my wife and I loved uh this couple, this refugee couple that we brought in four and a half years ago.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: How he called me dad, she called me dad, he called Marilyn mom, she called Marilyn mom.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: And and this woman just observed that, and she saw something that was real.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: And she's come back ever since.
12:43
SPEAKER_00: And so, about a month or five weeks ago, Marilyn and I took them out for lunch.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: We're at a very nice restaurant in the city, and uh she looked over me.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: She calls me father.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: I didn't know why she was calling me father.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was maybe because she knew something about Christianity and maybe Catholics calling the priest father.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: I thought it might have been that, and she was just doing it as a courtesy.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: I found out later from people from her country said, Bruce, you remind her of her father.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: She said, You look like her father.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: And so she calls me father, and she looked across the table, she said, Father, when should I become a Christian?
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Wow, wow, wow.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: What a question.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: She came that one time, she saw what she interpreted as real love demonstrated in a church fellowship.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: And that was it.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: And so transformed her.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: And so I said, Well, you know, if you believe this about Jesus, that he's God the Son, and if you believe that he became one of us, and he died on a cross to save us from our sins for the whole world, and that he was buried and He died and was buried in Rose again.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: I said, the sooner the better.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: And I remember my wife saying to me after we dropped them off uh from uh the lunch, I remember Marilyn saying, I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow we hear that she's become a Christian and we found out the next day that she had received Christ.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: Father, when should I become a Christian?
14:17
SPEAKER_00: That's so beautiful.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that something?
14:19
SPEAKER_00: It really is.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like the joy that we felt.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Just being a part of that.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: We're not like the big piece, but we were a piece of her coming one day.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: And we're so honored that she saw love and that she decided, this I want to come back.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: And so she's been with us every week, even when her husband is not able to come.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: She's there.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful story.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: What can churches, there's probably, you know, people who are members of churches, there might be some pastors listening.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh, what can they do to cultivate a culture where people feel known, they feel welcomed, they feel supported, and they feel loved.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, well, um well, to teach about it is important.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: If you're a church leader, you're a pastor, you're preaching.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Um we're we're just in a long series right now, which we started three weeks ago, and it's gonna go through till Easter, God willing, every Sunday, right through on uh the identity of Jesus, the words of Jesus, and the works of Jesus.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: And what we do is we have now in our church, because we're renting space at Dalhousie University, uh, we have a number of tables.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: People sit around tables, and we've asked the preachers in the series to stop during the sermon, put a question or two on the screen, and we'll have discussion about it at the tables.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of the sermon, again, more discussion.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: And so uh the thing about loving people, I think it's in the journey to loving people, it's important to get to know them.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: And we find in those small group discussions, you get to know people, you get to know what they think, um, you get to appreciate the fact that they're with you on a Sunday morning.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: And so um, and you get to show love.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you embrace people.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: One of the things about our little community, by the grace of God, I can say that the community thinks about itself.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: The first word that comes to our mind is a loving community.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: So praise God for that.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: And I've said, this might sound a little bit earthy, but uh, I've said at our church, I think God is very, very gracious to us when we mess, when we mess up and stuff, and we're gonna make mistakes.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: But by God's grace, may we not screw up on love.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, love, the word says, covers a multitude of senses.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh boy.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: It really does.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: It's a main thing.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: It does.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I would say that love probably is a very important part of unity in the life of the church.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: It's gotta be.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: It's the main thing.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: It's the main thing with church, it's a main thing in our lives, it's a main thing with one church with another church, it's a main thing within our rel within our fellowships.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Love is the main thing.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Well sorry.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: God is love.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he defines himself with that word.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's interesting, and truth is absolutely 100% premium importance, but Jesus says speak the truth in love with the gentle spirit.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, even the premium importance of truth is partnered with the premium importance of love.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: In fact, Paul goes on, I mean, y you know these scriptures too.
18:02
SPEAKER_01: He says, look, you can have all these gifts.
18:06
SPEAKER_01: You can do all these things in ministries.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have love, you're going to be a bunch of noise to the rest of the people around you.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: And they were doing some big things, weren't they?
18:18
SPEAKER_00: They were a very gifted community.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Incredibly gifted.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: They had all the gifts.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: No, it it really is such an important uh thing.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: What encouragement would you give to someone who's looking for a deeper community uh in church?
18:37
SPEAKER_01: And how would you define what deep is?
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking of uh my best buddy who said to me, uh, and he's a pastor, Bruce, there's nothing in my life that I could not talk to you about.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: And I feel that way with him.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: And that should be in our marriages, of course.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: And we talk about things in our marriages that I would not necessarily feel appropriate to talk to my friend about.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Although, if there was a marriage issue that I needed some help on, I could talk.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: I think you know what I mean.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: But that's uh the kind of depth in a church fellowship that I think that people could experience.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: It's to be known.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And it there's a bit of a risk, especially if you've been reluctant to make yourself known before.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: So what do we do?
19:31
SPEAKER_00: We put a little bit of ourselves out there, maybe with another person, just to see how that works.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: And if you've got a loving person just says, oh yeah, okay, I get it.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: All right.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm still good.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: You're still good, we're still good, you know.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and that creates uh trust to take maybe a next step.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you know, what you're talking about really is transparency.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: It is, yeah.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting because, you know, one of the best phrases about intimacy, which is really where it is a tremendous definer of deep relationship is the word intimacy.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: It is.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Like that person who said there's nothing I wouldn't share, that's intimacy.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: One of the best descriptions I've ever heard is of intimacy is into me you see.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: So I'd never heard that.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: What you've what you've done by sharing your journey is to give a window to that other person to see that journey.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: And it feels safe for them to share their journey.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: So so it's really you as leaders, it's almost like we need to be able to share.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, there's appropriate things to share, and we need to be careful, but we do need to be transparent in our journey.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: And transparency is a journey as well, right?
21:04
SPEAKER_00: And um only a foolish person would be totally transparent when they didn't know who was around them.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Right?
21:11
SPEAKER_00: We gotta we have to get to know each other, we have to test the waters.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm I mean, I'm old enough to have experienced this lovely journey.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh and as you say, in certain settings, I wouldn't say to a group what I might say to my closest buddy, right?
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh so there's discernment in it.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: There's discernment.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: But we need to take a risk.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: So with transparency, a big piece of that, and uh a part that hurts many church leaders and other people in church are secrets.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: Secrets can kill uh the Christian life, uh, can kill your joy, can kill your trust in other belief.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, really, isn't it saying I don't trust anyone enough to share this with them?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Or I'd be just too embarrassed to talk about this.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: And when secrets come out, there is a freedom.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: Secrets are kept in the dark.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: The enemy loves that.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: Just loves that.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: When secrets come out in a place where a person feels that kind of trust and safety and realizes, oh my goodness, these people still care about me.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I still feel like part of this group.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Nobody has told me that I need to leave this group because I'm just too awful.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's, I mean, that's a beautiful journey, then.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: It's life-giving.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: And people get set free.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: And as Jesus said, the truth shall set you free.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: It's not just biblical truth and hearing it preached or taught or discussed in a small group.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: It is just truth.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: When the truth comes out, when that light shines into the dark and hidden places and truth comes out, there's a freedom there.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, there's two things that I think surround that transparency and that level of communication that that make depth of community so good.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: One is safety.
23:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the even the world today talks about this is a safe place and so on.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: Which really, what does it mean when you are creating a safe place for others?
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Well I you know, um I always wanted to be a safe man with women of all ages.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: I wanted them always to feel safe around Bruce.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: Uh that Bruce has no agenda or desires that would be for my hurt in any way.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: And I want to be safe around other men as well.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: And it takes that takes discernment.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, I like to hug everybody, right?
24:11
SPEAKER_00: And uh I want to make sure that I do that appropriately.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: So I just like to hug everybody.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Now, what about safety, Bruce, when it comes to, you know, we've both been in environments where judgment is really running high.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: You know, you put out some risky thing and someone basically raises, you know, a you know, they virtue signal to you and you know, project themselves as being um you know, of higher value and higher standard.
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SPEAKER_01: And you know, those kind of things come across as judgment.
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SPEAKER_01: And a j in a judging community, a community where there's judgment is is not a safe place either.
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SPEAKER_01: That's not an emotionally safe place.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Or spiritually safe.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Or or spiritually safe.
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SPEAKER_01: So how do you how is safety created in that context?
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
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SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe it's good teaching.
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's coming back to the scriptures uh and saying, you know, uh, have we come to this place when maybe we should be over here?
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not just sure about how to answer that.
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SPEAKER_00: I would want to be an example of creating safety and being non-judgmental.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are deeds that need to be judged, but God has a way of judging deeds without judging He He can hate the sin and love the sinners, we've heard.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's you're talking about grace.
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unknown: Yeah.
25:56
unknown: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: It's it's really amazing when we encounter grace in our own life, yeah, it's so much easier to extend grace to others, and grace creates a safe place.
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SPEAKER_01: It's it's the grace of God.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, that makes uh a place safe to grow spiritually.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, I I love it that you know the word says, by grace you're saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, it's interesting that when we don't understand grace, we tend to boast.
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SPEAKER_01: There's a projection of various different things.
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SPEAKER_01: But I I really believe that grace creates hearts of grace.
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SPEAKER_01: You don't have to compromise truth to have grace.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, true grace is not a compromise of truth, but grace is the understanding of the work that Christ did on the cross, and that's the foundation of the redemption of our lives, the only way we can stand before the Father.
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SPEAKER_01: And when you have the humility of understanding that it's not what I did, but what he did on the cross, yeah, we have a humility in which we engage others in that creates an environment of safety that's just liberating and freeing.
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SPEAKER_01: I can tell you my story, you can tell me yours.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: And we can both journey towards God's ideals with his arms of embrace and acceptance around us and around each other.
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SPEAKER_01: So, friends, that's it for today.
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SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time on the Healthy Christian Leader.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for joining this conversation.
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SPEAKER_01: I trust that you were encouraged and challenged by the stories and experiences that were shared today.
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SPEAKER_01: Would you join us next week?
27:58
SPEAKER_01: You can find new episodes weekly in video form on the Erin Ministries YouTube page and in audio form wherever you get your podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: Erin Ministries is an interdenominational network of friends in ministry with a mission to foster healthy Christian leadership.
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SPEAKER_01: Check out our website, Erin Ministries.com, for more information and resources and on how you can donate to our ministry and potentially start a healthy Christian leader gathering in your area.
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SPEAKER_01: Until we meet again, may you experience the Lord's blessing, grace, and peace.
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SPEAKER_01: I'll see you next week.