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Legally Brunette: The Neonatal Nightmare - Lucy Letby · Legally Brunette

0:01
Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to an all new episode of Legally Brunettes.
0:04
Speaker 1: I will be your host today, Emily Simpson with Shane.
0:08
Speaker 1: With Shane. A lot of you reached out to me
0:11
Speaker 1: and you said, have you seen the new documentary on Netflix?
0:14
Speaker 1: It's about Lucy let Be. She's a nurse, and I
0:18
Speaker 1: had seen it pop up, And so after several of
0:22
Speaker 1: you were dming and asking about it, I decided to
0:25
Speaker 1: watch it and kind of take a deep dive into it.
0:27
Speaker 1: I will tell you, I still don't know what I
0:30
Speaker 1: think about Lucy let Bee, whether I think that she's
0:33
Speaker 1: guilty or not, but we are going to get into
0:35
Speaker 1: and we're going to discuss it. So, Lucy Leppie was
0:37
Speaker 1: a neonatal nurse at Countess of Chester Hospital. I also,
0:41
Speaker 1: can I just comment on how much I love the
0:42
Speaker 1: names of English hospitals. It sounds so proper. Yeah, Like
0:47
Speaker 1: here the hospital is called Hogue, right, but this is
0:51
Speaker 1: called the Countess of.
0:53
Speaker 2: Chester Hospital, and isn't there courts the crown.
0:56
Speaker 1: Yes, it's all very dignified. It's very very polished, to
1:00
Speaker 1: dignified and proper. She was convicted of murdering seven infants
1:04
Speaker 1: and attempting to kill six others between the years twenty
1:08
Speaker 1: fifteen and twenty sixteen. Prosecutors argued that a sharp rise
1:13
Speaker 1: in unexplained baby deaths and medical collapses in the unit
1:17
Speaker 1: occurred while she was on duty, alleging that she deliberately
1:21
Speaker 1: harmed infants. After a lengthy trial that began in twenty
1:25
Speaker 1: twenty two, I believe her trial was six months. Maybe
1:29
Speaker 1: maybe it was nine. It was long.
1:31
Speaker 2: She was a jury.
1:32
Speaker 1: Yes, she was found guilty in twenty twenty three and
1:36
Speaker 1: sentenced to a whole life order. See that's another way
1:39
Speaker 1: that they say it. They say whole life order basically
1:42
Speaker 1: like your whole life.
1:44
Speaker 2: I'm glad this sits well with you. I like it.
1:47
Speaker 1: I like that, I like the language. A whole life order,
1:50
Speaker 1: which is the most severe punishment under British law, with
1:53
Speaker 1: no possibility of parole. The case has drawn significant public
1:58
Speaker 1: and media attention and has remained in the subject of
2:00
Speaker 1: appeals and ongoing inquiries. I do know that she currently
2:08
Speaker 1: is in prison. We do know that she was convicted
2:10
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. Her defense has now working towards
2:14
Speaker 1: getting her another appeal. I think she's exhausted a couple
2:17
Speaker 1: appeals with the Court of Appeals. But then there's a
2:19
Speaker 1: different route that you can take where you can submit.
2:22
Speaker 2: Before, which seems like a tough call because there's seven
2:27
Speaker 2: well there's thirteen convictions. Yeah, so I don't know. I mean,
2:31
Speaker 2: you can overturn one or find one to be you know, doubtful,
2:36
Speaker 2: but then there's others because I think she has a
2:38
Speaker 2: whole life sentence for each of those counts.
2:41
Speaker 1: I believe there's like fifteen sentences.
2:43
Speaker 2: So unless you can find something that makes the whole
2:46
Speaker 2: like throughout the whole trial, right, you'd have to like
2:50
Speaker 2: find a way to negate the conviction of fifteen different counts.
2:54
Speaker 1: Well that's where her defense is at now because they've
2:57
Speaker 1: commissioned a whole you know, task force basically of professionals
3:03
Speaker 1: and experts that have written these reports. So we'll get
3:07
Speaker 1: to that. But the case is now being reviewed by
3:09
Speaker 1: the CCRC, So that's her kind of last hope. So
3:13
Speaker 1: all right, let's talk about Lucy's early life. So Lucy
3:16
Speaker 1: Letby was born and only child to John and Susan
3:19
Speaker 1: let Be in Hereford, England and January of nineteen ninety.
3:23
Speaker 1: Those who knew her describe her as a quiet and
3:26
Speaker 1: reserved and said it was obvious from early on that
3:29
Speaker 1: she would pursue a career as a pediatric nurse. In
3:33
Speaker 1: twenty eleven, Lucy let Be began working in the neo
3:36
Speaker 1: natal unit at Countess of Chester Hospital in Cheshire, England.
3:41
Speaker 1: Lucy's close friend that attended nursing school with her claimed
3:44
Speaker 1: that this hospital was very clicky and that the other
3:47
Speaker 1: nurses and staff were mean to Lucy because she was
3:50
Speaker 1: quirky and shy. You know, during the documentary she talks
3:54
Speaker 1: about this friend. Also, you know what's interesting that they
3:57
Speaker 1: can do now, do you know? When you watch documentary
4:00
Speaker 1: previously and they wanted to preserve someone's identity, so they
4:04
Speaker 1: made them anonymous. They would just make them like a black,
4:07
Speaker 1: shadowy figure and then they would change their voice, and
4:10
Speaker 1: then they would make it like that probably kind of voice.
4:13
Speaker 1: They don't do that. I'm watching this documentary. They enhance
4:16
Speaker 1: it with AI so they make her look like a
4:19
Speaker 1: totally different person.
4:20
Speaker 2: I guess they try to put a real face on there,
4:23
Speaker 2: but her real.
4:25
Speaker 1: Face because she wants anonymity.
4:27
Speaker 2: I actually looked like you.
4:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, but it's so bizarre because up
4:33
Speaker 1: in the corner it'll say something about like enhanced with
4:37
Speaker 1: AI or something to preserve anonymity.
4:39
Speaker 2: Well, what they do with the voice, they digitally.
4:43
Speaker 1: Enhance it to make it sound like someone different. And
4:45
Speaker 1: I guess they took her look she's like a she's
4:49
Speaker 1: a friend.
4:49
Speaker 2: Of Lucy Levy. It looks like someone And then they
4:52
Speaker 2: just accused.
4:53
Speaker 1: You don't know how you get AI to make it
4:55
Speaker 1: look like no one else in the world so that
4:58
Speaker 1: you're not defeated someone else. At some point, it's very.
5:03
Speaker 2: AI for defamation.
5:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. At the Countess of Chester Hospital, the infant mortality
5:09
Speaker 1: rates in the unit were considered statistically in line with
5:12
Speaker 1: comparable hospitals. But this was before twenty fifteen. So really
5:17
Speaker 1: the focus of this trial and the focus of Lucy
5:20
Speaker 1: let be and the issue of whether or not she
5:23
Speaker 1: is overtly doing things to cause a significant number of
5:27
Speaker 1: babies to collapse or die.
5:30
Speaker 2: Collapse meanings not is that another English term?
5:33
Speaker 1: They collapse. They use the word collapse, but that means die.
5:37
Speaker 1: Is it's really they focus on the years twenty fifteen
5:40
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen.
5:41
Speaker 2: This collapse mean more of a kind of a natural
5:44
Speaker 2: medical death as opposed to like a murder. He collapsed her.
5:49
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's what the term that the hospital
5:51
Speaker 1: uses is supposed to be, like a nice way of
5:53
Speaker 1: saying that the baby didn't survive, so the baby's collapsed.
5:58
Speaker 1: Prosecutors later argued that seven of the infants, which was
6:01
Speaker 1: five boys and two girls, were murdered during this period.
6:06
Speaker 1: So the issue, the main issue of this whole case
6:08
Speaker 1: is whether Lucy let Be was overtly doing things when
6:12
Speaker 1: she had these babies under her care to induce them
6:18
Speaker 1: to die, or whether it is just circumstantial as to
6:23
Speaker 1: the hospital, the babies just weren't well. They would have
6:26
Speaker 1: collapsed anyway, And so that's the main issue, and it's
6:30
Speaker 1: very very divided. And you know what Else's case reminded
6:33
Speaker 1: me of when I was watching it and it showed
6:35
Speaker 1: a lot of the headlines that had to do with
6:37
Speaker 1: Lucy let Be before she went to trial. It reminded
6:39
Speaker 1: me very much of Amanda Knox, where she had so
6:43
Speaker 1: much public scrutiny guilty. She was already guilty because remember
6:47
Speaker 1: how they would flash all on the inquiry and there's.
6:49
Speaker 2: No other suspect, right, she was the only one they
6:52
Speaker 2: looked into as.
6:53
Speaker 1: So Amanda Knox was just her face and her image
6:57
Speaker 1: was splashed all.
6:58
Speaker 2: Over Here's a crazy lady that murdered her roommate, and
7:03
Speaker 2: now is here's a crazy nurse that killed all these babies.
7:06
Speaker 1: Right, So to me, it was just it looked it
7:07
Speaker 1: reminded me very much of Amanda Knox, how it was
7:10
Speaker 1: a public scrutiny trial, how it was just splashing her
7:13
Speaker 1: face all over the part.
7:15
Speaker 2: I've always had a problem with that because it's like, oh,
7:17
Speaker 2: innocent before guilty, but then show the suspect, not the criminal,
7:21
Speaker 2: the suspect. So then you show him or her all
7:24
Speaker 2: over the place, and then let's say they're found not guilty.
7:26
Speaker 2: Well the news is done and they're going to move
7:28
Speaker 2: on to the next person, and then that person's face
7:30
Speaker 2: was everywhere.
7:31
Speaker 1: Well, so it is.
7:32
Speaker 2: It is bothersome, I think, right.
7:34
Speaker 1: And the way they show it is like, you know,
7:36
Speaker 1: baby killer and you know serial killer, most prolific baby
7:42
Speaker 1: serial killer of all of history.
7:45
Speaker 2: And then her face that was after conviction, that would
7:47
Speaker 2: make a little bit more sense.
7:48
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was before and after. I think
7:50
Speaker 1: already when she had been arrested and she was being
7:53
Speaker 1: put on trial for these a legend, you know, collapses
7:57
Speaker 1: of all these children, the media is just splashing her
7:59
Speaker 1: face every where with like serial killer, baby killer. So
8:02
Speaker 1: it just reminded me very much of a man of knocks.
8:04
Speaker 1: How I don't even know if you can get a
8:05
Speaker 1: fair trial with a jury pool when obviously the media
8:09
Speaker 1: has convicted her before. And you know, the average person,
8:13
Speaker 1: like we talk about, the average person, does not read
8:16
Speaker 1: the article and try to discern thing and look at
8:18
Speaker 1: facts and really try to make a decision. They see
8:20
Speaker 1: the cover of a magazine, they see her face and
8:22
Speaker 1: baby killer. That's that's all you need.
8:25
Speaker 2: So it's good enough for me.
8:27
Speaker 1: Right, because you're one of those people.
8:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's average.
8:30
Speaker 1: It's like when all this I will tell you guys
8:32
Speaker 1: out there listening, if you see an article on Facebook
8:36
Speaker 1: that has to do with a housewife, chances of it
8:40
Speaker 1: being true are slim to none.
8:42
Speaker 2: I don't even click on anything, even if it's world
8:44
Speaker 2: news anymore. It's like, well, that sounds pretty bad. If
8:47
Speaker 2: it's true, then I'll hear about it from multiple sources.
8:50
Speaker 1: It's just crazy to me how all these articles come
8:53
Speaker 1: up now on Facebook. There was one I saw that
8:55
Speaker 1: said that you beat me, and then it showed a
8:58
Speaker 1: photo of me when I had a face because I
9:00
Speaker 1: had black eyes. So anyway, stay away from Facebook art.
9:05
Speaker 2: It's very true to have a new podcast partner.
9:08
Speaker 1: Internal concerns were starting to be raised. This is in
9:10
Speaker 1: the twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen timeframe. A senior doctor
9:15
Speaker 1: testified that he raised concerns to the hospital leadership team
9:18
Speaker 1: about let Be during twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen. In
9:22
Speaker 1: one account, he said that he observed her standing by
9:26
Speaker 1: an infant whose oxygen levels were dropping and she was
9:29
Speaker 1: not intervening. Other staff testified about unusual behavior that had
9:35
Speaker 1: to do with Lucy, allegations that she discouraged coworkers from
9:39
Speaker 1: assisting during emergencies, and claims that she spent time with
9:43
Speaker 1: babies she was not assigned to. Also testimony that she
9:47
Speaker 1: wrote a sympathy card to parents of a baby she
9:50
Speaker 1: was accused of harming. I don't know. You can take
9:53
Speaker 1: those things and turn them around into something odd, or
9:58
Speaker 1: you can turn them around and look at it from
10:00
Speaker 1: a different perspective and think that if she wrote a
10:02
Speaker 1: sympathy card to someone, maybe it was because she was
10:05
Speaker 1: sympathetic that somebody lost a baby. And I don't know.
10:10
Speaker 2: That's what then that's what it should say, because I
10:13
Speaker 2: always like tell kids like I'm like, okay, say you're sorry,
10:15
Speaker 2: and it's like I didn't mean to do it, I know.
10:17
Speaker 2: But you can say i'm sorry you got hurt, I'm
10:19
Speaker 2: sorry it was an accident. So I don't know if
10:21
Speaker 2: she should have. So it can't go both ways. An
10:24
Speaker 2: apology doesn't always mean I did it. It might just
10:26
Speaker 2: mean I'm sorry for the circumstances.
10:27
Speaker 1: Right, So we get to July of twenty sixteen, Lucy
10:31
Speaker 1: was removed from the neonatal unit and transferred to administrative
10:34
Speaker 1: roles within the hospital's risk and Patient Safety office. Okay,
10:38
Speaker 1: that has to put you on notice immediately that something's
10:40
Speaker 1: coming down the pipeline when you're a nurse and that's
10:43
Speaker 1: your specialty is dealing with neonatal and dealing with babies,
10:47
Speaker 1: and they remove you from that and they're like, that's
10:48
Speaker 1: like when you're a police officer and you know, oh.
10:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like give me your gun and badge, yeah, hand,
10:54
Speaker 2: everything's fine.
10:56
Speaker 1: Now you're just going to answer the phone and just
10:58
Speaker 1: some administrative tasks. So obviously she's put on notice that
11:01
Speaker 1: something's coming down the pipeline and that they're.
11:03
Speaker 2: Thinking I don't think that. I never thought that that
11:06
Speaker 2: was a secret. I thought like when she was put
11:08
Speaker 2: on clinical whatever probation or whatever it's called, I think
11:12
Speaker 2: she was aware of the investigation.
11:14
Speaker 1: She was also sending emails asking for more information because
11:16
Speaker 1: she said she had such high anxiety about what was
11:18
Speaker 1: going on.
11:19
Speaker 2: She so I had to prepare my defense.
11:22
Speaker 1: Tell me what's going on. Lucy remained employed by the
11:26
Speaker 1: Countess of Chester Hospital NHS Foundation Trust in this capacity
11:30
Speaker 1: until her first arrest in July of twenty eighteen, at
11:33
Speaker 1: which point she was then suspended.
11:36
Speaker 2: Her first arrest.
11:37
Speaker 1: The first time she was arrested, I guess they were
11:40
Speaker 1: unable to keep her because they didn't have enough evidence.
11:43
Speaker 1: The second time she.
11:44
Speaker 2: Supposed to bail, they didn't learn their lessons.
11:46
Speaker 1: No, And then the third time, I believe they felt
11:48
Speaker 1: like they had enough evidence to support the allegation that
11:51
Speaker 1: she was overtly doing something. So her trial begins in
11:55
Speaker 1: October of twenty twenty two. So now we are and
11:59
Speaker 1: here we are in October of twenty twenty two. Actually
12:01
Speaker 1: they show her being arrested. I believe it's a third
12:03
Speaker 1: time in the documentary when they show her being arrested
12:06
Speaker 1: and they're so polite when they come in. They come
12:08
Speaker 1: in and they're like hello, good.
12:10
Speaker 2: They bring crumpets and tea, just like hello, we're here.
12:13
Speaker 1: Is Lucy here and the poor.
12:16
Speaker 2: Mom helping her pack, and you know they.
12:18
Speaker 1: Have the police, uh you know.
12:21
Speaker 3: You're pointing their chests out, you know, the police the
12:24
Speaker 3: cam body can body cam.
12:26
Speaker 1: Yes, so they're you know, we get to see it all.
12:28
Speaker 1: And they arrive and she's like up in her bedroom.
12:31
Speaker 1: The mom her mom is wailing in the background, just wailing.
12:35
Speaker 2: The third arrest, right, I.
12:36
Speaker 1: Believe this is the third arrest that they show in
12:38
Speaker 1: the dark.
12:38
Speaker 2: At some point I would be a little common. I'm like, yeah, okay,
12:40
Speaker 2: you tried this before. You don't have any evidence.
12:42
Speaker 1: Well, she's actually very calm for someone that's been arrested
12:44
Speaker 1: three times. I mean, she's just kind of sitting in
12:46
Speaker 1: her bedroom under the covers, and they just they like
12:48
Speaker 1: knock on her bedroom door and they're like, hello, Lucy,
12:50
Speaker 1: you know, do you want to get dressed? Let's go,
12:52
Speaker 1: We're going to be on our way. October of twenty
13:02
Speaker 1: twenty two, Lucy's child began at the Manchester Crown Court.
13:06
Speaker 1: She pleaded not guilty to twenty two charges. These charges
13:10
Speaker 1: included seven murders and multiple attempted murders. There were notable
13:15
Speaker 1: cases that were referenced by the prosecution in court. You know,
13:19
Speaker 1: they named all the children. They were all kind of
13:21
Speaker 1: named by letters. So there were two triplets.
13:26
Speaker 2: Mean for purposes of the prosecution.
13:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Child O and Child P that had died,
13:33
Speaker 1: and a third triplet, Child H, had allegedly survived two
13:37
Speaker 1: attempts and recovered after being transferred. Child G survived three
13:43
Speaker 1: alleged attacks but later suffered severe and permanent brain injury.
13:47
Speaker 1: Child B experienced rapid deterioration after her twin brother had
13:51
Speaker 1: already died, and Child EA's mother testified that she found
13:55
Speaker 1: her baby bleeding and distressed. Concerns were allegedly dismissed at
14:00
Speaker 1: the time, so.
14:01
Speaker 2: They weren't consistent causes of death.
14:03
Speaker 1: No, and prosecutors stated that at least seventeen collapses were
14:07
Speaker 1: not medically explainable. So really, I had to I read
14:13
Speaker 1: several articles about this because SIDS, Yeah, a sudden infinite
14:17
Speaker 1: death syndrome. Yeah, so I was trying.
14:20
Speaker 2: To break down which is unexplainable, inexplainable.
14:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's actually you've met Alan before with the Innocence Center.
14:29
Speaker 1: He was convicted many many years ago and spent many
14:32
Speaker 1: years in jail for ACIDS type of situation and it
14:35
Speaker 1: ended up being proven later after the fact that he
14:39
Speaker 1: had nothing to do.
14:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think he's not the only one. I
14:42
Speaker 2: think that's yeah. They've come to learn that sometimes. Yeah.
14:46
Speaker 2: And then they find consistencies in these SIDS cases, like
14:49
Speaker 2: certain patterns of kind of how they are in their nursery,
14:53
Speaker 2: in their home, which is not negligence, it's just there's
14:55
Speaker 2: a consistency there.
14:57
Speaker 1: Colleagues testified that sudden infant de interiory were happening while
15:02
Speaker 1: Lucy was on duty. The prosecution presented a chart that
15:05
Speaker 1: showed Lucy Leppie was at the hospital during every infant fatality.
15:08
Speaker 1: So her new defense team claims that she was present
15:13
Speaker 1: not only because she worked more, but also because she
15:15
Speaker 1: was more qualified than the other nurses, or she had
15:17
Speaker 1: like specified education and she was more experienced. But then
15:22
Speaker 1: you know, the prosecution comes back and says that though
15:24
Speaker 1: she had taken extra courses, she was still labeled what's
15:27
Speaker 1: called a Band five nurse, which in the UK is
15:30
Speaker 1: the entry level grade for newly qualified registered nurses, and
15:33
Speaker 1: that there were other nurses in the neonatal ward that
15:36
Speaker 1: were banned six and banned seven, meaning that they were
15:38
Speaker 1: more qualified than Lucy. So again, lots of arguments on
15:44
Speaker 1: both sides.
15:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, again, there's no going back to the beginning when
15:48
Speaker 2: you said you're uncertain, and then you asked my prediction
15:53
Speaker 2: what your judgment would be. It fucking makes sense to that.
15:57
Speaker 2: But then it's like, if you're on, then that's the answer.
16:01
Speaker 2: You're uncertain and there's enough doubt and she shouldn't be convicted.
16:05
Speaker 1: I know, But sometimes I feel like once we go
16:07
Speaker 1: through this, and.
16:08
Speaker 2: I know I was just saying, like I was just
16:10
Speaker 2: pointing out that there's a significant amount of doubt that
16:12
Speaker 2: you have.
16:13
Speaker 1: However, some Stetisians find the prosecution's chart to be very skewed,
16:17
Speaker 1: as it seemed to pick and choose which staff was added.
16:20
Speaker 1: There were other doctors and staff that were not included
16:22
Speaker 1: in the chart. Why were they not included? That's the question.
16:25
Speaker 1: Expert witnesses stated. Some overfeeding incidents could not have been accidental.
16:30
Speaker 1: You know, the prosecution was alleging that she was overfeeding babies,
16:37
Speaker 1: which I guess would like overfeeding them with milk, but.
16:41
Speaker 2: Not for purposes of killing, right, just like she was
16:43
Speaker 2: improperly No.
16:44
Speaker 1: I think with purposes of harming them. If you overfeed
16:47
Speaker 1: someone with milk, think about you know, the people that
16:49
Speaker 1: have died because they drink too much water. You remember
16:51
Speaker 1: there was a case where someone didn't they.
16:53
Speaker 2: Run or something a number of cases. Yeah, yeah, So.
16:55
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, if you pump a baby full, if
16:56
Speaker 1: you're feeding, if you're overfeeding a baby milk that's tiny
17:00
Speaker 1: and just born and mighty, be having some issues that
17:02
Speaker 1: could lead to death.
17:04
Speaker 2: So that was a plus. That should be a minimal
17:06
Speaker 2: skill that a nurse is aware of, right, how much
17:09
Speaker 2: they should be fed.
17:10
Speaker 1: Prosecutors argued that air embolism was also used in multiple cases.
17:15
Speaker 1: This was with baby O.
17:16
Speaker 2: I actually injecting air into their blood stream or something.
17:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they really if you look really at baby Oh,
17:22
Speaker 1: the prosecution accuses her of injecting air into the blood
17:26
Speaker 1: of baby Oh, which that type of blockage is called
17:29
Speaker 1: an air embolism. So that's what the prosecution was saying.
17:33
Speaker 1: Then you know, and I guess a trait of air
17:36
Speaker 1: embolism is that the baby's skin becomes discolored, and I
17:39
Speaker 1: think there were several babies that had skin discoloration. So
17:43
Speaker 1: that's what they were saying, that someone had to overtly
17:45
Speaker 1: inject air.
17:46
Speaker 2: But I'm going to guess the skin discoloration doesn't isn't
17:50
Speaker 2: conclusive that that was the cause of death. It's just
17:53
Speaker 2: that's a symptom, but it's probably also a symptom that
17:56
Speaker 2: arises from other causes of death.
17:58
Speaker 1: Right, So, Dowie Evans, who is the main expert witness
18:02
Speaker 1: used by the prosecution, has been accused of being an
18:05
Speaker 1: unreliable expert witness. Doctor Evans claimed that many of these
18:09
Speaker 1: newborns died by air embolism, citing so he used so
18:14
Speaker 1: this doctor that was an expert for the prosecution used
18:18
Speaker 1: a research paper written by doctor Shu Lee back in
18:22
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine. So that's where he claims that it
18:26
Speaker 1: was the embolism. It was air embolism. The air was
18:28
Speaker 1: directly I guess, inserted into a vein or something, and
18:32
Speaker 1: then the baby's.
18:33
Speaker 2: I've always heard that if you have a syringe that's
18:35
Speaker 2: empty instous air and you pump it into someone, it
18:37
Speaker 2: could result in death.
18:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. Here's my other question though, and this is I
18:41
Speaker 1: don't really understand. I understand that this hospital was small
18:45
Speaker 1: and understaffed. I don't think it was medically up to date.
18:48
Speaker 1: It probably needed new equipment and things like that. But
18:50
Speaker 1: why did they not have cameras?
18:54
Speaker 2: Do hospital? Where do you want the cameras in.
18:57
Speaker 1: The neonatal unit.
18:58
Speaker 2: You've got babies.
18:59
Speaker 1: There's always issh with babies being kidnapped. Why are there
19:02
Speaker 1: not security cameras and all of this? And it's a
19:04
Speaker 1: very small.
19:06
Speaker 2: Do we know that there were on cameras or are
19:08
Speaker 2: you just assuming there was?
19:09
Speaker 1: I'm assuming there's no cameras because.
19:11
Speaker 2: A camera show that she fed the baby too many ounces.
19:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, they also they also alleged that she injected
19:17
Speaker 1: them with insulin. So I'm saying, if she's doing these
19:21
Speaker 1: things like injecting a baby with insulin or overfeeding or
19:27
Speaker 1: injecting error into their veins for then wouldn't there be
19:31
Speaker 1: something on a camera. I don't know, or it would
19:34
Speaker 1: deter her from doing that. I mean, I just don't
19:37
Speaker 1: understand where there's no security cameras in this hospital where
19:39
Speaker 1: it's a neonatal unit where you have babies.
19:42
Speaker 2: That's on the assumption that all hospitals have cameras in
19:45
Speaker 2: this one doesn't. We don't know what if that's not
19:48
Speaker 2: what if it's a private s thing. I don't know.
19:49
Speaker 1: Doctor Dowie Evans claimed many of these newborns died by
19:53
Speaker 1: air embolism, citing doctor Shoeley's research on the subject. However,
19:58
Speaker 1: doctor Shoeley, the man that wrote this this paper, was
20:01
Speaker 1: then contacted by the defense and then he went through
20:05
Speaker 1: each case by himself, each case of the babies dying,
20:11
Speaker 1: along with fourteen other neonatal experts, and they determined that
20:16
Speaker 1: none of the infants died from air embolism. However, this
20:19
Speaker 1: is after the fact that I believe this was after
20:21
Speaker 1: she was convicted. So this is her defense preparing.
20:25
Speaker 2: To challenge to challenge it right.
20:28
Speaker 1: Also, handwritten notes found by Lucy Letby and her home
20:32
Speaker 1: were presented. Some contain self critical statements and references to
20:36
Speaker 1: harming babies, like I did this. I am evil. You know,
20:40
Speaker 1: I don't know how I did.
20:41
Speaker 2: You just say, where was that said?
20:43
Speaker 1: So when they searched her home, she liked to journal,
20:48
Speaker 1: so she wrote a lot and I guess they found
20:49
Speaker 1: a lot of journals and scribbles and she wrote, I
20:53
Speaker 1: did this, I am evil.
20:57
Speaker 2: Self incriminating, probably don't want to be right in that others.
21:01
Speaker 1: But she also wrote things like, you know, she also
21:04
Speaker 1: questioned why she was being accused, like writing, I am innocent.
21:08
Speaker 1: Why are they doing this to me? I don't know
21:12
Speaker 1: how how profound that is. If someone's just journaling a
21:17
Speaker 1: stream of consciousness or whatever in their writing.
21:21
Speaker 2: It's not like it's a detailed account of what took place. Yeah,
21:26
Speaker 2: I am evil. Doesn't mean I did everything that you're
21:29
Speaker 2: accusing me of.
21:30
Speaker 1: But she said, I am evil, I did this. But
21:32
Speaker 1: then I don't know what this is, what this is.
21:34
Speaker 1: Maybe it's something else. Maybe she's just saying it because
21:37
Speaker 1: of all the news headlines.
21:40
Speaker 2: Or I did this means like I was negligent in
21:42
Speaker 2: the way I cared for them, and now I've caused
21:44
Speaker 2: all this. I mean, we don't know what it means.
21:46
Speaker 1: So jurors were shown the diary entries with initials of
21:50
Speaker 1: infants that have passed under her care. Text messages were
21:53
Speaker 1: also presented in which she referenced emotional distress at work.
21:57
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if text messages were She's,
22:00
Speaker 1: you know, distressed at work, show culpability. I feel like
22:04
Speaker 1: all of us have text messages where we're distressed at work,
22:08
Speaker 1: so or the marriage or that. In May of twenty
22:11
Speaker 1: twenty three, she testified in her own defense, stating she
22:14
Speaker 1: intended no harm. She suggested environmental issues, including plumbing problems,
22:19
Speaker 1: could have contributed to infections or complications. In June of
22:23
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, prosecutors delivered closing arguments alleging deliberate and
22:29
Speaker 1: repeated harm.
22:31
Speaker 2: So.
22:31
Speaker 1: Then in August of twenty twenty three, this is August
22:33
Speaker 1: eighteenth of twenty twenty three, Lucy Leppie was found guilty
22:36
Speaker 1: following a ten month trial. She was convicted in the
22:39
Speaker 1: murders of seven infants and the attempted murders of six others.
22:44
Speaker 2: Obviously, the children that died collapsed right clearly, Like there's
22:51
Speaker 2: evidence that there's a death, but the attempted murders you
22:54
Speaker 2: just said, there's no cameras and things of it. Like
22:56
Speaker 2: how did they attribute attempted? Like where's the records to
23:00
Speaker 2: show that there was an attempted murder on these six?
23:04
Speaker 1: I don't know other than they have records of the
23:05
Speaker 1: baby maybe being on on colapsing but collapsing, But I
23:11
Speaker 1: get to me, maybe collapsing isn'tdying. Maybe it's just like decline.
23:13
Speaker 2: Like some illness or some urgency that was addressed, and.
23:17
Speaker 1: Now they'reuscitated, I think because those babies were able to
23:21
Speaker 1: be resuscitated. And then but they're accusing.
23:24
Speaker 2: How why Okay, if they were resuscitated, why do they
23:27
Speaker 2: need to be like, what, what are the details of
23:30
Speaker 2: what happened to get to that point? And then now
23:33
Speaker 2: they're going to say, oh, this baby that almost died
23:35
Speaker 2: was because of you. I don't know what's the evidence.
23:38
Speaker 1: Because I would assume that those attempted murders had the
23:41
Speaker 1: same type of facts surrounding them, like.
23:43
Speaker 2: She was on the clock, that she was there, none.
23:46
Speaker 1: Of that, you know, I don't know that they the
23:49
Speaker 1: skin was discolored, so they're going to attribute it to,
23:51
Speaker 1: you know, an air embolism.
23:53
Speaker 2: She's going to get whole life sentence for that, or
23:56
Speaker 2: she would.
23:56
Speaker 1: Have gotten a whole life sentence for the six that
23:58
Speaker 1: they deemed that she actually did murder.
24:01
Speaker 2: I know, but then now attempted murder is the same.
24:04
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, this evidence doesn't look very strong to
24:07
Speaker 2: you get fifteen life sentences.
24:09
Speaker 1: The judge stated that the severity of the offenses warranted
24:13
Speaker 1: lifelong imprisonment. Then in July of twenty twenty four, this
24:17
Speaker 1: is following a four week retrial, she was convicted on
24:20
Speaker 1: an additional count of attempted murder in relation to another victim.
24:24
Speaker 1: This was child k after the jury was previously hung
24:28
Speaker 1: on that specific incident. This resulted in an additional life sentence.
24:33
Speaker 1: So she's serving total. She's serving a total of fifteen
24:36
Speaker 1: whole life sentences, appeals and the aftermath. So now we'll
24:39
Speaker 1: get to twenty twenty three to twenty twenty six. She
24:43
Speaker 1: has unsuccessfully appealed her convictions twice. They even I think
24:50
Speaker 1: there was even the appeals court said, even if because
24:54
Speaker 1: she because I believe her defense attorney has that new
24:57
Speaker 1: has that panel of experts now that have all come forward.
25:00
Speaker 1: Doctor Sue is one of them that wrote the original
25:02
Speaker 1: paper on air embolism and infants, and they've all gone
25:06
Speaker 1: through each case case by a case, and then they
25:09
Speaker 1: all deemed kind of unanimously that that theyse weren't murders.
25:14
Speaker 1: And so I think that evidence is now I guess
25:18
Speaker 1: was used somewhat in the appeals. But then I believe
25:21
Speaker 1: the appeals court said, even if it even if that
25:24
Speaker 1: were true, there were other instances that had to do
25:27
Speaker 1: with insulin and other things. So too much feeding.
25:30
Speaker 2: And I know because it's it's very mysterious, Right, you
25:34
Speaker 2: have a baby that dies, well.
25:35
Speaker 1: We have multiple, you have lots of babies, and it's
25:38
Speaker 1: not like there was a pattern. There was also another
25:41
Speaker 1: baby that collapse, died whatever you want to say that
25:44
Speaker 1: they deemed had some type of liver issue, but a failure.
25:49
Speaker 1: But they said the liver failure was because of like
25:52
Speaker 1: posts or because of like blunt horse trauma or something
25:56
Speaker 1: like she had abused the baby or something. So then
25:59
Speaker 1: that's a good point that you made, because I feel
26:01
Speaker 1: like if someone were a serial killer, we've learned that
26:04
Speaker 1: the definition of a serial killer is because someone has
26:07
Speaker 1: a pattern of behavior, they do the same things.
26:11
Speaker 2: And she wants them dead. Why would she like, why
26:13
Speaker 2: would she use like the idea of methods.
26:15
Speaker 1: Right, like an air embolism here, too much insulin here, feeding,
26:18
Speaker 1: too much, a liver issue here. It's it is kind
26:23
Speaker 1: of all over the board, not just like a systematic,
26:26
Speaker 1: same type of thing every single time.
26:28
Speaker 2: And the babies are all different too, right, There was
26:30
Speaker 2: premature ones and there was you know, normal and the
26:33
Speaker 2: weighted one, and.
26:34
Speaker 1: It had issues like as soon as they were born,
26:36
Speaker 1: you know, that were already vulnerable at that point.
26:39
Speaker 2: You know, I do know that from looking over this
26:42
Speaker 2: a little bit. That another thing, and it's circumstantial. But
26:45
Speaker 2: another thing is the amount of babies dying in such
26:50
Speaker 2: a short period of time that the hospital that's like
26:54
Speaker 2: not normal, like results, not normal statistics. And then when
26:58
Speaker 2: they she was put as a medical nurse or whatever hurt,
27:01
Speaker 2: she was demoted or taken off of basically there it
27:05
Speaker 2: dropped significantly. And I read that up to today or
27:09
Speaker 2: at least recently, they've had twenty five hundred like babies
27:12
Speaker 2: come through the hospital and they've had one death.
27:16
Speaker 1: Well you know, but also did have they cleaned up
27:20
Speaker 1: the hospital and have they put new do they have
27:23
Speaker 1: new staff? Do they have you know.
27:26
Speaker 2: They I know they also the hospital stopped taking in premies.
27:31
Speaker 1: Well see that that's why when you have a conclusion,
27:34
Speaker 1: like a very conclusive statistic where it's like, okay, well
27:38
Speaker 1: ever since Lucy let me left right now, there's been
27:41
Speaker 1: no deaths, But then you don't explain it further. Well,
27:43
Speaker 1: maybe there's no death because the staff is different. Maybe
27:47
Speaker 1: they've upgraded their medical equipment, maybe.
27:50
Speaker 2: They stopped taking in babies, maybe they stopped taking right.
27:54
Speaker 1: Maybe it's not there anymore.
27:57
Speaker 3: So you know, those are things that maybe someone else
28:00
Speaker 3: is not there also that they are fired some doctor
28:03
Speaker 3: right who knows?
28:12
Speaker 1: She unsuccessfully appealed her convictions twice We talked about that,
28:16
Speaker 1: and then in February twenty twenty six, at coroner formally
28:18
Speaker 1: open inquests into several of the infant deaths. Well, you
28:23
Speaker 1: know what my other question is, the whole time I
28:25
Speaker 1: was watching this documentary and the whole time I was
28:26
Speaker 1: reading these articles, why are people still giving birth in
28:29
Speaker 1: this hospital?
28:31
Speaker 2: Well? Do they know these? Oh you mean after it's
28:34
Speaker 2: like publicly, I'm just saying I wouldn't.
28:36
Speaker 1: I mean, the hospital can that neonatal unit still exists
28:40
Speaker 1: and babies are still being born there?
28:41
Speaker 2: What?
28:42
Speaker 3: Well?
28:42
Speaker 2: Because I don't know they got rid of her.
28:44
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you, if I was brave, I'd be like,
28:46
Speaker 1: don't we.
28:48
Speaker 2: Should look up the reviews on the hospital.
28:50
Speaker 1: And I don't care if we have to reral and
28:52
Speaker 1: we have to like go a longer distance, I'm not
28:55
Speaker 1: going to that, or we have it in the bathtub
28:58
Speaker 1: or something. Right, the case attracted widespread media attention, with
29:02
Speaker 1: many debating if let Be is actually one of the
29:04
Speaker 1: most prolific child serial killers in history, or if the
29:08
Speaker 1: hospital is using her as a scapegoat.
29:10
Speaker 2: For that too, they have bad practice. If they have
29:13
Speaker 2: bad practices and they want to blame something other than themselves,
29:17
Speaker 2: then they might say, Hey, this lady works a lot,
29:19
Speaker 2: let's excuse her.
29:20
Speaker 1: Right. So, as we were talking about. In February of
29:23
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, a Netflix documentary titled The Investigation of
29:26
Speaker 1: Lucy let Be premiered, featuring arrest footage and interviews disputing
29:30
Speaker 1: aspects of the prosecution's case. All right, I will tell
29:33
Speaker 1: you I did as much as I could. I did
29:35
Speaker 1: as much research as I could. I read as many
29:37
Speaker 1: articles as I could, even got on Reddit and read
29:40
Speaker 1: all the things that I could find on Lucy Leppie.
29:42
Speaker 1: And it comes down to, you know what, if I'm
29:44
Speaker 1: going to have to pick a side, I'm going to
29:46
Speaker 1: go with the safe side, where I don't think we
29:48
Speaker 1: should give a thirty three year old woman a life
29:50
Speaker 1: sentence for the rest of her life when there isn't
29:54
Speaker 1: a smoking gun. There's no smoking gun, and I'm sorry,
29:57
Speaker 1: but in order to put someone in prison for the
29:59
Speaker 1: rest of their life. I need to smoking gun. I
30:01
Speaker 1: need video camera footage. I need her to I need
30:04
Speaker 1: someone to show me that this woman is killing these
30:08
Speaker 1: babies on purpose because she's sick and demented and she
30:12
Speaker 1: deserves to stay in prison the rest of her life.
30:14
Speaker 1: That's what I need.
30:15
Speaker 2: You have, what's better an innocent person in jail or
30:18
Speaker 2: you know, someone that's guilty on the streets.
30:21
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going to err on. I would feel
30:24
Speaker 1: more comfortable with her on the streets, just not working
30:27
Speaker 1: with babies, Like maybe she needs a different or elderly
30:30
Speaker 1: career path, something away from healthcare. But until there is
30:35
Speaker 1: something that proves to me there is some type of
30:37
Speaker 1: smoking gun that says that I'm like convinced.
30:40
Speaker 2: That she did think about the letter, the notes or
30:43
Speaker 2: diaries that she wrote where I'm not good enough, I'll
30:46
Speaker 2: never marry, I'll never have children. Always did it? I mean, well, yeah,
30:49
Speaker 2: all those things. Well, let's assume she's not guilty for
30:52
Speaker 2: purposes of my points. Okay, so she's writing in her journal,
30:55
Speaker 2: I you know, I'm she's depressed, right, I'll never marry,
30:59
Speaker 2: I'm not going to have children, I'm not good enough
31:01
Speaker 2: all these things, and then she gets thrown in jail
31:03
Speaker 2: for life. Now, what do you think she thinks? She
31:07
Speaker 2: thinks this is my life, like I'm worthless, I'm no good,
31:10
Speaker 2: and then she thinks I'm just destined to kind of
31:13
Speaker 2: have a miserable life. And it's an awful thing to think.
31:16
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of even guilty people think
31:18
Speaker 2: that because I watch sometimes a lot of court sentencing
31:20
Speaker 2: and things like that on TV, and I always feel
31:23
Speaker 2: that these usually kids or young people, think, well, that's
31:28
Speaker 2: just kind of my life. I grew up in an
31:30
Speaker 2: unfortunate situation. I have crappy parents or whatever, and whatever,
31:34
Speaker 2: I'll just go to jail and they kind of just
31:36
Speaker 2: throw their arms in the air. And anyway, that's the
31:38
Speaker 2: part of me that feels really bad for people sometimes.
31:40
Speaker 1: But are you saying that you think her ramblings were
31:42
Speaker 1: more just a stream of like just questioning, like she
31:46
Speaker 1: was just depressed and she's just no.
31:48
Speaker 2: I was only going on the possibility if she were
31:53
Speaker 2: to be not guilty, and she truly was just a
31:55
Speaker 2: nurse that just couldn't save these kids and these babies
31:58
Speaker 2: or just had bad luck with care for them. And
32:01
Speaker 2: then She's already depressed about herself and now she gets
32:03
Speaker 2: thrown in jail and blamed. I mean, that's that's heartbreaking.
32:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. So let's where she's at now. So her case
32:12
Speaker 1: is now being reviewed by the CCRC, which stands for
32:15
Speaker 1: the Criminal Cases Review Commission, and they have the task
32:19
Speaker 1: of reviewing the expert reports that we talked about how
32:22
Speaker 1: her defense had compiled the fourteen I believe experts, and
32:27
Speaker 1: they drafted a report which has been submitted by her
32:30
Speaker 1: defense team to the CCRC. So now there, I don't
32:34
Speaker 1: know if there's a timeframe on that or I don't
32:36
Speaker 1: know if it's like the Supreme Court where you can
32:38
Speaker 1: they can just take all the time in the world
32:40
Speaker 1: to decide whether they're going to pick something up and
32:41
Speaker 1: read it and adjudicate it. But that's where her case
32:45
Speaker 1: is now. For purposes of our discussion, I would hope
32:49
Speaker 1: that they read it and that they give her whatever happens,
32:54
Speaker 1: whatever the the you know, judiciary is with this. I
32:58
Speaker 1: don't know if I think it kicks it back to
33:00
Speaker 1: the appeals court, like I think if they read it
33:02
Speaker 1: and think, okay, this is substantive and it would make
33:04
Speaker 1: a difference, let's kick it back to the appeals court.
33:07
Speaker 1: Then I hope that happens because I feel like she
33:09
Speaker 1: should have another day in court.
33:12
Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, I don't. I everything I've looked at, which
33:16
Speaker 2: probably wasn't as much as you, I don't see any
33:18
Speaker 2: reason to give her all those sentencings. I don't think
33:23
Speaker 2: she's not guilty. No excuse me. I don't think she's innocent.
33:27
Speaker 2: I don't know that she's innocent, but I say she's
33:30
Speaker 2: not guilty by a matter of law.
33:31
Speaker 1: No, I agree with what you're saying. I'm not saying
33:33
Speaker 1: that either. I'm not saying I'm convinced she's innocent. I'm
33:35
Speaker 1: just not convinced that she's guilty and should spend the
33:38
Speaker 1: rest of her life in prison. So that's where we're
33:41
Speaker 1: at on Lucy let Be. I would love to know
33:43
Speaker 1: you guys's thoughts. If you've seen the documentary on Netflix,
33:46
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on Lucy let Be, or if
33:48
Speaker 1: you've read more things on the case, or if you've
33:50
Speaker 1: been invested in it and you have more details, or if.
33:52
Speaker 2: There's any other hospital staff members out there that kind
33:55
Speaker 2: of have come across, like you know, situations where it's
33:58
Speaker 2: sketchy but it's also just unfortunate medical standards and lack
34:03
Speaker 2: of care or just mishaps, right.
34:05
Speaker 1: So we would love to hear your thoughts, so you
34:07
Speaker 1: can let me know on Instagram. Also, guys, please be
34:10
Speaker 1: sure to follow us at Legally Brunette and you can
34:12
Speaker 1: listen to us anywhere you listen to podcasts, and also
34:16
Speaker 1: be sure to tell your friends and family. We appreciate
34:18
Speaker 1: that very much, so thank you so much for listening.
34:20
Speaker 2: Thank you