Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #564 Maggie Freleng with Dr. Marvin Cotton Jr.

Transcript

#564 Maggie Freleng with Dr. Marvin Cotton Jr. · Wrongful Conviction

0:05
Speaker 1: On the west side of Detroit. In the summer of
0:07
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, year old Marvin Cotton Junior sold a gun.
0:12
Speaker 1: He thought it belonged to his distant cousin, but that
0:16
Speaker 1: wasn't the case.
0:18
Speaker 2: I get a knock at the door and it's him
0:21
Speaker 2: and an older guy, and I knew immediately that it
0:25
Speaker 2: had something to do with this gun. So I opened
0:27
Speaker 2: the door and make it away from my house. So
0:30
Speaker 2: as I closed the door, I heard the older guy
0:33
Speaker 2: say he don't know who he's fm with. Next thing
0:38
Speaker 2: I know, two police cars pull up. They gear up
0:40
Speaker 2: and break in my house without a warn He kept
0:44
Speaker 2: saying that it was a department issue gun, but there
0:48
Speaker 2: wasn't a gun that a police offical carry was like
0:50
Speaker 2: a huge chrome automatic weapon. They really wanted it back.
0:54
Speaker 2: They ramsacked my house. They took money. Other guns that
0:57
Speaker 2: I had with the gun that they were looking for
1:00
Speaker 2: wasn't there. He said, I got a thousand dollars for
1:03
Speaker 2: this gun. We're gonna leave. Just go hide it somewhere,
1:08
Speaker 2: call me and tell me where you hit the gun at.
1:11
Speaker 1: But instead of playing along, Marvin filed a complaint, which
1:16
Speaker 1: led to an investigation and eventually consequences for these officers,
1:20
Speaker 1: as well as Marvin being routinely harassed by the police.
1:25
Speaker 1: Fast forward to January twenty fourth, two thousand and one,
1:28
Speaker 1: gunfire erupted on Marvin's friend Jamon McIntyre's porch. Jaman ran
1:34
Speaker 1: into the alley across the street, where he was fatally shot.
1:37
Speaker 1: When witnesses at the scene could not identify the shooters,
1:41
Speaker 1: the blame eventually found its way to Marvin and to others.
1:46
Speaker 2: When I was arrested, one of the detectives told the
1:50
Speaker 2: other detectives, you know, he really fed up some good officers' lives.
1:56
Speaker 2: My name is doctor Marvincott Junior, and I spent nighteteen
2:00
Speaker 2: seven months and twelve days of prison for a crime
2:02
Speaker 2: I didn't commit.
2:04
Speaker 1: From Lava for good. This is wrongful conviction with Maggie
2:07
Speaker 1: Freeling today, Doctor Marvin Cotton Junior. Marvin Cotton Junior grew
2:20
Speaker 1: up in the nineteen eighties and nineties on the West
2:23
Speaker 1: side of Detroit.
2:25
Speaker 2: The neighborhood that I'm from, a street called Myers. Myers
2:30
Speaker 2: was the center of the universe for that area, or
2:34
Speaker 2: at least it was the center of my universe. We
2:39
Speaker 2: had restaurants on this block. We had elementary school on
2:44
Speaker 2: this block. It was like everything that you would need
2:46
Speaker 2: a community to be. It was all on this block,
2:50
Speaker 2: and it was a lot of families lived there. It
2:52
Speaker 2: was a lot of guys. We grew up together in
2:54
Speaker 2: my age group and those that were older. My co
2:57
Speaker 2: defendant in this case, Anthony Legion, who also did this
3:01
Speaker 2: show Brilliant paralegal here in Michigan, he grew up on
3:05
Speaker 2: Myers as well. He lived down the street from me,
3:08
Speaker 2: several years older. He gave my first haircut as a child.
3:12
Speaker 2: You know, I kind of grew up up under him
3:14
Speaker 2: and the older guys that was in the area. You know,
3:17
Speaker 2: Myers was really a close knit community.
3:20
Speaker 1: Marvin's co defendant, Anthony Legion, managed to stay largely uninvolved
3:25
Speaker 1: in the streets, while Marvin's situation was different.
3:29
Speaker 2: I'm the middle child of an older sister and a
3:32
Speaker 2: younger brother. We were raised primarily by my mother. My
3:36
Speaker 2: biological father struggled with drugs and alcohol for maybe thirty
3:42
Speaker 2: seven years of his life. Wow, he was very abusive
3:45
Speaker 2: in the household, and eventually she got away from that. Yeah.
3:49
Speaker 2: I grew up. I grew up very poor. I remember
3:51
Speaker 2: it creating the desire to want more, to want to
3:55
Speaker 2: have things, to not want to be singled out or
3:58
Speaker 2: bullied in school for not having things. You know, children
4:01
Speaker 2: could be very cruel. And my stepfather, the man who
4:05
Speaker 2: eventually married my mother, he helped raise myself and my
4:09
Speaker 2: brother and my sister from maybe about the age where
4:13
Speaker 2: I was twelve years old into the time that I
4:17
Speaker 2: was wrongfully convicted. He introduced me to the streets and
4:22
Speaker 2: I got involved with selling drugs and selling guns and
4:26
Speaker 2: just being involved in that whole life.
4:29
Speaker 1: And while hustling in the streets, Marvin was a senior
4:31
Speaker 1: in high school when he found out that he was
4:34
Speaker 1: going to be a dad when.
4:35
Speaker 2: I was seventeen years old, and I remember, like immediately
4:41
Speaker 2: when I found out, I just felt the pressure of
4:44
Speaker 2: being responsible for another human being that was coming. And
4:48
Speaker 2: you know, I went to every single doctor's appointment. I
4:51
Speaker 2: made sure that I fed her mother everything that I
4:54
Speaker 2: thought she should be eating. And I was very excited.
4:58
Speaker 2: But since I didn't have the two to organize my
5:02
Speaker 2: life the way that it should be, my plan was
5:06
Speaker 2: drop out of high school and then enroll in a
5:09
Speaker 2: GED course so that I can quickly get my GED
5:13
Speaker 2: and when I dropped myself from high school. I went
5:17
Speaker 2: to go and roll and they was like you a
5:19
Speaker 2: week late, Like you have to wait till next year
5:23
Speaker 2: to enroll in our ged program. So it was like
5:27
Speaker 2: I could have stayed in school, but I had a
5:30
Speaker 2: problem that no one knew about. I couldn't read and write.
5:34
Speaker 2: So I had made it all the way to this
5:37
Speaker 2: point in school without being able to read and write,
5:40
Speaker 2: because I just used my ability to communicate. I had
5:42
Speaker 2: a great memory, so if I heard something in class,
5:46
Speaker 2: I would answer all of the questions. I would never
5:48
Speaker 2: do anything on paper, and teachers automatically knew, like you're smart,
5:52
Speaker 2: you know everything, just do the work, so they would
5:54
Speaker 2: pass me because they thought I knew it. And the
5:58
Speaker 2: reason I couldn't read and write is because when I
6:00
Speaker 2: was a child and I was worried about my mother
6:03
Speaker 2: and whatever fight that just happened the night before, or
6:07
Speaker 2: what was going on in the home.
6:09
Speaker 1: So Marvin wasn't exactly set up for success, but he
6:13
Speaker 1: survived and cared for his daughter with the tools that
6:16
Speaker 1: he had, and that's how it went until the summer
6:18
Speaker 1: of two thousand, when his distant cousin brought him a
6:22
Speaker 1: gun to sell.
6:23
Speaker 2: One of my cousin's cousin. He knew that I indulged
6:28
Speaker 2: in that world. So I took the firearm. I gave
6:31
Speaker 2: him some money, and I went and I sold it.
6:33
Speaker 2: Several hours later, I get a knock at the door.
6:37
Speaker 2: It's him and an older guy, probably in his forties.
6:40
Speaker 2: I knew immediately it had something to do with the gun.
6:43
Speaker 2: So I opened the door, and you know, I told,
6:46
Speaker 2: you know, man, get away from my house. I didn't
6:48
Speaker 2: just get away from my house. So as I closed
6:50
Speaker 2: the door, I heard the older guy say he don't
6:54
Speaker 2: know who he's fing with. Next thing I know, two
6:58
Speaker 2: police cars pull up. They gear up and put their
7:02
Speaker 2: vests and everything on my front line. They break in
7:05
Speaker 2: my house without a warrant. They ramsacked the house. They
7:09
Speaker 2: took money, other guns that I had, but the gun
7:13
Speaker 2: that they were looking for wasn't there. So they handcuffed me,
7:17
Speaker 2: put me in the bathroom, and one of the guys
7:20
Speaker 2: come in and says, look, I got a thousand dollars.
7:24
Speaker 2: He said it on the bathroom sync He said, gonna
7:28
Speaker 2: let you out of these handcuffs. We're gonna leave. Here's
7:31
Speaker 2: my phone number. Just go hide it. Somewhere, call me
7:36
Speaker 2: and tell me where you hit the gun, and I
7:38
Speaker 2: owe you one.
7:39
Speaker 1: Do you think he lost his gun like he was
7:41
Speaker 1: in trouble maybe, like you know.
7:44
Speaker 2: He kept saying that it was a department issue gun.
7:48
Speaker 2: But I have seen department issue guns before, and it
7:51
Speaker 2: didn't have that extra serial number with DPD on it.
7:54
Speaker 2: And it wasn't a gun that a police officer will carry.
7:57
Speaker 2: It was like a huge chrome automatic web and it
8:00
Speaker 2: was no way that it was a department issue gun.
8:03
Speaker 2: But they really wanted it back. And the gun was
8:05
Speaker 2: not worth a thousand dollars, you know, it was brand new.
8:08
Speaker 2: It was probably a four hundred dollars gun. But they
8:10
Speaker 2: were willing to pay in pretty penny for this firearm back.
8:13
Speaker 2: And he said, go hide it somewhere and just tell
8:15
Speaker 2: me where it's at. So me being twenty years old
8:20
Speaker 2: at that time and my egos bruise, they essentially robbed
8:25
Speaker 2: me because they took things that I wasn't supposed to have,
8:27
Speaker 2: but they took them, and you know, they didn't charge
8:30
Speaker 2: me with it or anything. So one day I filed
8:33
Speaker 2: a complaint with internal Affairs and the person that was
8:36
Speaker 2: leading the raid was the head of narcotics, and they
8:40
Speaker 2: was like, why is a narcotic person trying to retrieve
8:44
Speaker 2: a gun that was never reported stolen? And it started
8:47
Speaker 2: a real big investigation.
8:49
Speaker 1: Do you think this kind of put you on their
8:52
Speaker 1: radar for when doomas?
8:53
Speaker 2: That absolutely did. They would just pick me up for
8:56
Speaker 2: no reason at all, Take me to jail, let me
8:59
Speaker 2: out sometimes, come get me the same day, take me
9:02
Speaker 2: back to jail, keep me in there for a couple
9:04
Speaker 2: of days, let me out. Every time they seen me,
9:06
Speaker 2: they was pulling me over. I got to the point
9:08
Speaker 2: to where I would just pull my car over, get out,
9:11
Speaker 2: and hit the alarm as I'm running, lock my doors
9:14
Speaker 2: as I'm running, just because I didn't feel like going
9:16
Speaker 2: to jail again for no reason, which led to me
9:19
Speaker 2: filing additional complaints. And eventually I filed a complaint and
9:23
Speaker 2: a police officer came to my house arresting me. The
9:27
Speaker 2: police PRECID is like five minutes away. They drove me
9:30
Speaker 2: around for like forty five minutes, you know, cussing and raving.
9:34
Speaker 2: The officer that was driving had his gun in his
9:35
Speaker 2: hand the whole time he was pulling up on people,
9:38
Speaker 2: pointing his gun at people. He actually shot somebody that night.
9:41
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, after they took me to jail, he
9:44
Speaker 2: was just like unhinged. I thought they were gonna kill
9:47
Speaker 2: me that night. To be honest, I thought, you know,
9:51
Speaker 2: being a nobody black man from the streets of Detroit
9:55
Speaker 2: where you know, constitutional rights didn't exist at all back then,
10:00
Speaker 2: and you know, I just thought it was over. And
10:01
Speaker 2: then the pressure that they were placing on me at
10:05
Speaker 2: that time, I knew that something was coming. I just
10:08
Speaker 2: didn't know what it was.
10:10
Speaker 1: Which brings us to the victim in this case, Marvin's
10:13
Speaker 1: friend Jamon McIntyre, who lived at thirty nine to fifty
10:16
Speaker 1: one third Street in Detroit with a guy named Kenny Lockhart.
10:21
Speaker 1: But the house belonged to Jamon's powerful relatives. As we
10:25
Speaker 1: learned from Anthony Legion's attorney, Wolf Muller, I.
10:28
Speaker 3: Just know from all the police reports and what the
10:31
Speaker 3: police officers knew is this was a drug house maintained
10:36
Speaker 3: and kept by Jamon McIntyre, who was related either by
10:41
Speaker 3: blood or they call them plain nephews with the Johnson
10:45
Speaker 3: crime family that ran a lot of dope out of
10:47
Speaker 3: Detroit at that time in the early two thousands, late nineties.
10:51
Speaker 3: So this was a notorious drug house. In fact, one
10:56
Speaker 3: of the defendants in our lawsuit, Santonian Adams, was a
11:00
Speaker 3: nephew of the Johnsons, and he was a Detroit Police
11:04
Speaker 3: officer there at the time of the crime. He we
11:08
Speaker 3: found out later, was actually running security for the Johnson
11:12
Speaker 3: crime family as a Detroit Police officer.
11:15
Speaker 1: So shortly after midnight on January twenty fourth, two thousand
11:18
Speaker 1: and one, Santonian Adams was out in the driveway. Kenny
11:22
Speaker 1: Lockhart and his girlfriend Renee Tate were in an upstairs bedroom,
11:25
Speaker 1: and Jamon McIntyre was on the porch, allegedly with three
11:30
Speaker 1: other men.
11:31
Speaker 3: Three guys were hanging around on a porch, apparently a
11:34
Speaker 3: little bit after midnight, McIntyre's sister comes over and she's
11:38
Speaker 3: looking for some money. He gives her some money, she leaves.
11:40
Speaker 3: She doesn't recognize any of the three. Shortly after she leaves,
11:44
Speaker 3: Adams is in the driveway and all of a sudden,
11:47
Speaker 3: here shots being fired and McIntyre calls to him tone
11:53
Speaker 3: as he's running out of the house being chased by
11:55
Speaker 3: these guys, runs down an alley across the street and
11:59
Speaker 3: gets undown. Now at this time, Lockhart is in the
12:03
Speaker 3: bedroom with his girlfriend. He first told the officers he
12:06
Speaker 3: didn't see what happened. Here's the shooting, closes his door
12:10
Speaker 3: because he's trying to protect his girlfriend and waste till
12:12
Speaker 3: the shooting.
12:13
Speaker 1: Stops, as did his girlfriend, Renee Tate. Police collected about
12:18
Speaker 1: thirty shell casings, ten near the porch and another twenty
12:21
Speaker 1: in the alley. An officer Santonian Adams, not really explaining
12:25
Speaker 1: his presence there, said that he had gotten off a
12:28
Speaker 1: few shots as well.
12:30
Speaker 3: Santonian Adams claims that he couldn't find his official police
12:34
Speaker 3: gun in the van he was driving at the time.
12:37
Speaker 3: He says, I couldn't find my gun, but as I
12:40
Speaker 3: was ducking when I heard the shots, I saw a
12:43
Speaker 3: gun under the front passenger seat, so I grabbed that
12:45
Speaker 3: and I got off about four shots. Well, he never
12:48
Speaker 3: turned in his official law enforcement handgun to have it analyzed.
12:53
Speaker 3: When they did take a look at it, they found
12:56
Speaker 3: there were four bullets missing. His story never added up.
13:00
Speaker 3: Didn't pursue him.
13:01
Speaker 1: Instead, nearly a month later, they went back to Kenny Lockhart,
13:05
Speaker 1: who inexplicitly had a new story to tell involving three
13:09
Speaker 1: young men from the neighborhood. Marvin Cotton, Anthony Legion, and
13:13
Speaker 1: twenty nine year old Devonte Parks.
13:16
Speaker 3: Lockhart claims he hears the shooting, then he comes out
13:20
Speaker 3: says that the guys are in his house, and a
13:23
Speaker 3: guy he identifies as Cotton tells another guy shoot him,
13:27
Speaker 3: shoot Lockhart. Lockhart claims he finds a gun and takes
13:31
Speaker 3: a shot. Only the problem is there are no bullet
13:34
Speaker 3: holes in the house.
13:36
Speaker 1: And not only was this account contradicted by Renee Tate,
13:39
Speaker 1: but also of the three guns that the police found
13:42
Speaker 1: in the house, none of them could be linked to
13:44
Speaker 1: the shellcasings that were collected from the scene.
13:48
Speaker 3: Even one of the police officers who first interviewed Lockhart
13:51
Speaker 3: wrote in his notes, the guy is not telling the truth.
13:54
Speaker 3: I don't believe what word he says. And mind you,
13:57
Speaker 3: he first told the officers he didn't see what it
13:59
Speaker 3: has and second he knew Cotton, so if Cotton had
14:04
Speaker 3: been there, he would have identified Cotton.
14:07
Speaker 1: Nevertheless, all three young men were arrested separately, and with
14:11
Speaker 1: all the harassment that preceded this arrest, Marvin thought this
14:15
Speaker 1: was just more of the same.
14:17
Speaker 2: You know, I had got kind of used to it
14:19
Speaker 2: at this point. I did not know why they were
14:22
Speaker 2: picking me up and they took me downtown. They put
14:25
Speaker 2: me in a bathroom size interrogation room, you know, bright lights.
14:30
Speaker 2: They left me in there for about thirteen hours. No
14:33
Speaker 2: one came to check on me. Couldn't use the bathroom.
14:36
Speaker 2: About thirteen fourteen hours later and they took me into
14:39
Speaker 2: an office. There was three detectives in that office. One
14:43
Speaker 2: of the detectives told the other detectives, you know, he
14:46
Speaker 2: really fed up some good officers' lives. Here I go
15:07
Speaker 2: in this interrogation role, twenty one years old, not knowing
15:10
Speaker 2: why I'm down here. It was Sergeant Walter Bates, Sergeant
15:15
Speaker 2: Ernest Wilson, and Inspector Donald Hughes. It was a lot
15:19
Speaker 2: of threats saying they were going to do this and
15:22
Speaker 2: do that to me, some acts of violence. And I
15:25
Speaker 2: told them that I didn't have anything that I wanted
15:27
Speaker 2: to talk about. I told him a lawyer that shut
15:31
Speaker 2: it down. And just so you know, Walter Bates went
15:35
Speaker 2: to prison for Robin thirteen banks. Ernest Wilson high speed
15:40
Speaker 2: chased from a different police department, drunk for a second
15:43
Speaker 2: DUI and had an illegal gun on him. And then
15:46
Speaker 2: I have a recording of Donald Hughes talking about how
15:50
Speaker 2: they set me up.
15:52
Speaker 1: Before their misconduct was revealed, Marvin, Anthony and Davante had
15:56
Speaker 1: to find ways to impeach the identification that these menduced
16:00
Speaker 1: via Kenny Lockhart, while also trying to corroborate their alibis
16:05
Speaker 1: from pre trial detention.
16:07
Speaker 2: Like I said, I grew up not knowing how to
16:09
Speaker 2: read and write. And it's interesting because my wrongful conviction
16:13
Speaker 2: is the very thing that corrected that. I had a
16:17
Speaker 2: lot of motivation because when they gave me that big
16:21
Speaker 2: old stack of discovery papers, it was about forty five
16:24
Speaker 2: pages and I couldn't read it.
16:26
Speaker 3: Kenny Lockhart said that he was absolutely one hundred percent
16:30
Speaker 3: certain of the three guys who were charged, Legion, Cotton,
16:34
Speaker 3: and DeVante Parks on Parks had in airtight alibi. Well,
16:38
Speaker 3: then there goes Lockhart's whole identification.
16:40
Speaker 1: It appears the state had verified Parks's alibi, which directly
16:44
Speaker 1: undermined Lockhart's identification, but instead of dropping all charges, they
16:50
Speaker 1: found a jailhouse informant named Ellis Frasier to hold the
16:54
Speaker 1: case together. Meanwhile, Marvin had taught himself how to read
16:58
Speaker 1: and write, just in time to find out out how
17:01
Speaker 1: Detroit Police operates.
17:03
Speaker 2: Four days before Trout, my attorney came to visit me
17:06
Speaker 2: in the county jail and he slid a statement to me.
17:10
Speaker 2: So I'm looking over this statement and my blood pressure
17:13
Speaker 2: is just going through the roof as I'm trying to
17:15
Speaker 2: read it. And my attorney he says, listen, this guy
17:18
Speaker 2: is saying that you can confessed him, and I'm like,
17:20
Speaker 2: this didn't happen.
17:21
Speaker 3: It is the Detroit Police Department, and particularly the homicide
17:24
Speaker 3: section in the late nineteen eighties through the nineteen nineties
17:28
Speaker 3: and even into extending the early two thousands, if they
17:31
Speaker 3: had a weak case, they would recruit some snitch, typically
17:36
Speaker 3: from what would be the ninth floor jail, where you're
17:39
Speaker 3: only supposed to be held there for about forty eight
17:41
Speaker 3: hours before you get transferred to the county jail. But
17:43
Speaker 3: some of these guys on a ninth floor were in
17:46
Speaker 3: the ninth floor lockup for a year or more and
17:49
Speaker 3: they had sheets over their cells, they had VCRs, they
17:53
Speaker 3: had TVs, they had food, they had drink, they had
17:55
Speaker 3: everything because they were regular snitches for the DPD. And
18:00
Speaker 3: three of them have said under oath is, we would
18:02
Speaker 3: get discovery packages from the detectives told to memorize it.
18:06
Speaker 3: A handwritten statement from the homicide detective saying, how this
18:10
Speaker 3: guy confessed and all you had to do was sign it.
18:14
Speaker 2: I don't even consider Ellis Fraser or jail house informists
18:19
Speaker 2: a snitches, because a snitch tells something they know, But
18:23
Speaker 2: when detectives give you the information for you to testify to,
18:28
Speaker 2: that's just something completely different.
18:30
Speaker 1: But in the time before this informant system was exposed,
18:34
Speaker 1: it seems that the pattern weaved this case together as well.
18:38
Speaker 1: Ellis Fraser said that Marvin confessed to him an implicated
18:42
Speaker 1: legion and importantly not Parks. But there are some problems
18:47
Speaker 1: with this statement.
18:49
Speaker 2: He says this happened in the county jail, which has
18:52
Speaker 2: huge bullopeans. As you're going to court, they're putting people
18:56
Speaker 2: in different bullpens depending on what judge they're going to see.
18:59
Speaker 2: In his state, he said that Anthony Legion, myself, and
19:03
Speaker 2: my third cod defended were all on the docket to
19:06
Speaker 2: go see the trial judge. I went and see my
19:09
Speaker 2: probation judge on this day that this jail house informant
19:14
Speaker 2: says that I was in a different bullpen, So.
19:17
Speaker 1: Wrong, Judge He also said that Marvin had changed into
19:20
Speaker 1: street clothes, but that doesn't happen when seeing the probation judge.
19:25
Speaker 1: And then the statement placed them all in the trial
19:29
Speaker 1: judge bullpen together.
19:31
Speaker 2: Anthony never came down that day, even though on the
19:35
Speaker 2: computer it says that he had court that day, but
19:37
Speaker 2: we got documents showing that they never signed him to
19:41
Speaker 2: come down to court. My other co defendant had to
19:44
Speaker 2: go see a different judge in a completely different county,
19:47
Speaker 2: so he wasn't even in the bull pen. And then
19:49
Speaker 2: I went and seeing a different judge because I was
19:51
Speaker 2: seeing my probation judge. So none of us was in
19:54
Speaker 2: the bullpen with Ellis Fraser Junior. Although they thought that
19:58
Speaker 2: they had set it up like that, did.
20:00
Speaker 1: This get brought up at trial? Did your defense attorney
20:03
Speaker 1: bring this up?
20:04
Speaker 2: Well? When he went and showed the judge and the
20:06
Speaker 2: prosecutor they had a sidebar to then that's when they
20:09
Speaker 2: changed the story and Illustrazer was like, no, nobody was
20:12
Speaker 2: in the bullpayn with me. I talked to him through
20:15
Speaker 2: a wall and he told me his first and last name,
20:19
Speaker 2: victims first and last name, the street where this happened.
20:22
Speaker 2: Witnesses first and last name, all of these details that
20:25
Speaker 2: you can get out of policy ports and preliminary transcripts,
20:29
Speaker 2: and it was like literally a perfectly written statement that
20:32
Speaker 2: no one would ever say, and no one would ever
20:34
Speaker 2: share this information through a wall in a bullpen with
20:38
Speaker 2: forty to fifty people in his bullpen, forty to fifty
20:41
Speaker 2: people in my bullpen. People don't even use their real
20:44
Speaker 2: names in jail.
20:46
Speaker 1: Fraser also testified that he was receiving nothing in return
20:50
Speaker 1: for his testimony, even though he was released soon after.
20:54
Speaker 1: And the surprises didn't stop there. Without explanation, DeVante Parks
20:59
Speaker 1: was severed from Marvin and Anthony's trial all of a.
21:03
Speaker 3: Sudden, Parks severed from the case. Why it turns out,
21:07
Speaker 3: right before trial they verified Park had an airtight alibi,
21:11
Speaker 3: and so they dismissed charges against Parks, but only after
21:15
Speaker 3: the Cotton legion trial.
21:17
Speaker 1: Which gave the appearance that Parks was still being charged.
21:20
Speaker 1: While this information could not be used to impeach Lockhart,
21:24
Speaker 1: who had said that he was one hundred percent certain
21:27
Speaker 1: when he identified Parks, but at trial, Lockhart only had
21:31
Speaker 1: to identify the two defendants in front of him.
21:35
Speaker 3: The state's evidence simply came to Lockhart and being backed
21:39
Speaker 3: up by a snitch witness, which then would give credibility
21:44
Speaker 3: to Lockhart, right, because they're saying the same thing. And
21:46
Speaker 3: they never got to hear about the Duponte Parks misidentification.
21:50
Speaker 3: As much as the defense tried to punch holes in Lockhart,
21:53
Speaker 3: Lockhart could say, I knew Cotton, so I knew who
21:56
Speaker 3: it was. And then this other guy legion, I saw
21:59
Speaker 3: him too.
22:00
Speaker 2: We called two witnesses, a detective that Kenneth Lockhart had
22:04
Speaker 2: told several different variant stories too. And we called another
22:10
Speaker 2: witness that was the girlfriend of Lockhart, and she had
22:15
Speaker 2: told a story in her statement that conflicted with Lockhart.
22:20
Speaker 1: Right, because she was in the house with him, right,
22:22
Speaker 1: they allegedly had heard the gunshot.
22:24
Speaker 2: Yes, So we wanted to call her to show that
22:27
Speaker 2: this guy is lying, he's not telling the truth. But
22:30
Speaker 2: when she came in court, she was crying, shaking, She
22:33
Speaker 2: kept looking at Anthony and I and you know, we've
22:37
Speaker 2: never seen this woman before in our life. But the
22:40
Speaker 2: jury don't know why she's crying looking at us in
22:43
Speaker 2: this way.
22:44
Speaker 1: So without context or how Lockhart came to name these men,
22:49
Speaker 1: or how Parks's charges were just about to be dismissed,
22:53
Speaker 1: or how Frasier was definitely receiving a deal for testifying.
22:56
Speaker 1: On October nineteenth, two thousand and one, the jury Anthony
23:01
Speaker 1: and Marvin a first degree murder and illegal use of
23:04
Speaker 1: a firearm, sending them away for life without the possibility
23:09
Speaker 1: of parole, and in the process, another generation of the
23:13
Speaker 1: Cotton family was in jeopardy.
23:15
Speaker 2: Once I was wrongfully convicted. I knew that my daughter
23:20
Speaker 2: was in danger fathers in prison, a young black female
23:26
Speaker 2: in the city of Detroit. I did not want her
23:29
Speaker 2: to be a statistic so I knew that I needed
23:33
Speaker 2: to draw as many lines and connections and communication with
23:38
Speaker 2: her as possible. So even before she learned how to read,
23:41
Speaker 2: I was writing her letters. I wanted her to have
23:44
Speaker 2: a drawer full of letters that she can always see,
23:47
Speaker 2: and I would put lessons in it. I would talk
23:49
Speaker 2: to her about protecting her space and just communicating and
23:54
Speaker 2: being kind to people. I would just put lessons in
23:57
Speaker 2: every letter. I will send her cards, I will send
24:00
Speaker 2: her Teddy Bears money. I would call her all the time.
24:05
Speaker 2: So I just drew as many lines to build the
24:09
Speaker 2: relationship as possible. Because I knew that our relationship may
24:15
Speaker 2: give her a little bit of what she need not
24:18
Speaker 2: to fall and be a statistic in any way.
24:21
Speaker 1: You know, the relationship you had with your mother and
24:23
Speaker 1: your father and these different men in your life, did
24:26
Speaker 1: that affect or inform the way you parented with your daughter.
24:31
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I didn't have a perfect guide on what to be,
24:37
Speaker 2: but I knew what I did not want to be.
24:39
Speaker 2: You know, our biological father. You know, we've been building
24:41
Speaker 2: relationships since I've been out. I go see him a
24:43
Speaker 2: few times a year. But what I got from him
24:46
Speaker 2: that he wasn't trying to give me. But what I
24:48
Speaker 2: got from him is my discipline when it comes to
24:51
Speaker 2: alcohol and drugs because of what I witnessed and what
24:56
Speaker 2: I seen, and you know, all of the broken promises
24:59
Speaker 2: growing up, all of that stayed with me, and I'm
25:02
Speaker 2: able to practice opposite in a positive way. You know,
25:06
Speaker 2: he was never present, so I make sure that I'm
25:08
Speaker 2: very present. You know, drugs was his priority. And you
25:12
Speaker 2: know drug addicts are not interested in asking you how
25:14
Speaker 2: are you doing? They actually you know you have anything
25:17
Speaker 2: for me? Can I borrow some money? So his communication
25:20
Speaker 2: is not the best, So I make sure my communication
25:23
Speaker 2: with my daughter is solid.
25:26
Speaker 1: That it's not about needing or wanting.
25:28
Speaker 2: It's absolutely yeah, wow, it's all about me getting in
25:30
Speaker 2: their business. Like in prison, I understood that these detectives
25:46
Speaker 2: that was doing the wrong things. I recognized that they
25:48
Speaker 2: were smart because they were able to hide things from
25:52
Speaker 2: me in my face. So I knew that the battle
25:56
Speaker 2: was a mental battle. I have to become smarter because
25:59
Speaker 2: they're not planned. So my initial motivation was to turn
26:02
Speaker 2: myself into a weapon so that I could fight back
26:05
Speaker 2: against the system that had rolled over my life. I
26:09
Speaker 2: read a lot of books, I studied a lot. I
26:11
Speaker 2: did a lot of work on myself. So I turned
26:13
Speaker 2: my prison sale into a university. But when you can
26:16
Speaker 2: think in prison, everybody starts coming to you for askers.
26:20
Speaker 2: They want you to save them. So now I'm a mentor.
26:23
Speaker 2: Now I'm a leader, And then I started to feel
26:26
Speaker 2: a duty to help more than just myself.
26:30
Speaker 1: So Marvin went from a young father who couldn't read
26:33
Speaker 1: into a man who understands the law, parenting, and leadership
26:39
Speaker 1: as only doctor Marvin Cotton Junior can, all while fighting
26:43
Speaker 1: for his freedom, which began in the denial of his
26:46
Speaker 1: initial appeals and federal habeas So by twenty ten, Marvin
26:51
Speaker 1: needed to find new evidence.
26:54
Speaker 2: I hired a private investigator and he went and talked
26:56
Speaker 2: to Elis Fraser. Elis Fraser did not know who he was,
27:00
Speaker 2: who was working for, and he just revealed everything.
27:04
Speaker 1: Fraser said how he initially told Detective Hughes that he
27:08
Speaker 1: never saw anyone, but had overheard two men talking. One
27:12
Speaker 1: said I wasn't even there man.
27:14
Speaker 3: Elie Fraser says in an affidavit that the officer in charge, Hughes,
27:20
Speaker 3: walks him into court and has to explain to him
27:23
Speaker 3: who these guys are, so he makes sure that he
27:26
Speaker 3: picks them out and identifies cotton as cotton and doesn't
27:30
Speaker 3: confuse the guys.
27:32
Speaker 1: Fraser also claims that he was promised early release by
27:35
Speaker 1: both the detective and prosecutor and was reminded not to
27:39
Speaker 1: mention that deal at trial. Then the investigator visited Detective Hughes.
27:45
Speaker 3: Private investigator who used to be with the Detroit PD,
27:49
Speaker 3: makes a secret recording with Donald Hughes, the officer in charge,
27:53
Speaker 3: and Hughes tells him, Yeah, Lockart hadn't seen anything. This
27:57
Speaker 3: drug dealer told me, and then I told Lockhart. So
28:00
Speaker 3: Lockhart's story then lined up with whoever was the suspect
28:04
Speaker 3: that the drug dealer had identified, and that became Cotton
28:07
Speaker 3: and Legion and Parks.
28:09
Speaker 1: The investigator also visited Lockhart's girlfriend, Renee Tate, about why
28:13
Speaker 1: she backed up Lockhart's story at trial, and her answer
28:17
Speaker 1: might identify who this drug dealer was.
28:21
Speaker 2: She said she was receiving pressure from detectives as well
28:24
Speaker 2: as the victim family, one of which was the head
28:27
Speaker 2: of this criminal organization that was pressuring her to come
28:31
Speaker 2: in and say a particular thing.
28:33
Speaker 3: Lockhart's girlfriend said that Lockhart never saw anybody, because neither
28:37
Speaker 3: of them saw anybody. But she won't sign an affidavit
28:41
Speaker 3: and has basically said, if you subpoena me to testify,
28:45
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna lie and I say I never said
28:47
Speaker 3: that because she's terrified of the Johnson crime family. Word
28:51
Speaker 3: on the curb was that Johnson was the one orchestrating
28:54
Speaker 3: all of this. Johnson wanted McIntyre out of there. Santonian Adams,
28:59
Speaker 3: the Detroit please officer there at the time of the crime,
29:02
Speaker 3: who was a nephew of the Johnsons, set McIntyre up,
29:07
Speaker 3: and maybe Lockhart set McIntyre up too, because think about it,
29:10
Speaker 3: if he had been in the house, he'd have been killed.
29:12
Speaker 2: Two.
29:12
Speaker 3: If this was just a robbery for drugs, they would
29:15
Speaker 3: have killed everybody. And so because Cotton and McIntyre are
29:19
Speaker 3: buddies and doing stuff together, have the cops go get Cotton.
29:24
Speaker 1: And that word on the street was corroborated for the
29:26
Speaker 1: detectives in this case. Before trial, a.
29:29
Speaker 3: Guy named Kurt Nerd was living with Lockhart just a
29:35
Speaker 3: couple weeks later, and Lockhart told him Johnson offered him
29:39
Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars depended on Cotton and Legion, and so
29:41
Speaker 3: he ended up telling Kurt Neard, I never saw those guys,
29:45
Speaker 3: but ten thousand dollars a lot of money. Nard went
29:48
Speaker 3: to a Detroit Police homicide detective, Walter Bates, and told
29:52
Speaker 3: him exactly what happened. Even gave Bates the handwritten napkins
29:57
Speaker 3: that he took notes on after Lockhart told them this.
30:01
Speaker 3: Bates never turned that evidence over.
30:04
Speaker 1: Surprisingly, this Brady material and new evidence didn't make much
30:08
Speaker 1: difference on appeal.
30:10
Speaker 3: The court system is much more focused on procedure than
30:14
Speaker 3: whether you're innocent or what do you get screwed at trial?
30:17
Speaker 3: So they submitted their case to the Wayne County Conviction
30:20
Speaker 3: Integrity Unit, and the CiU took a fresh look at
30:23
Speaker 3: the case, and then they were able to understand, especially
30:28
Speaker 3: with this tape that the PI had with Donald Hughes
30:32
Speaker 3: where Hughes admitted that Lockhart hadn't seen anything. Now you
30:35
Speaker 3: start getting into a whole lot of police misconduct and
30:38
Speaker 3: their right to affair trial. They were robbed a due process,
30:41
Speaker 3: and the CiU came to that conclusion that they couldn't
30:45
Speaker 3: say one hundred percent that these guys were.
30:48
Speaker 1: Innocent, couldn't or wouldn't.
30:51
Speaker 3: What they did was they said there was so much
30:53
Speaker 3: police misconduct they were entitled to a new trial. And
30:56
Speaker 3: then a Wayne County prosecutor's office realized the flaws with
30:59
Speaker 3: the case and dismissed the charges. But I think the
31:02
Speaker 3: new evidence that really rocked this case, other than what
31:06
Speaker 3: we've talked about, is that the prosecutor's office was very
31:09
Speaker 3: likely involved in this miscarriage of justice with not allowing
31:15
Speaker 3: Parks to take the stand because they didn't dismiss the
31:18
Speaker 3: charges until after this conviction.
31:20
Speaker 1: So that was October one, twenty twenty, when Marvin was
31:23
Speaker 1: finally able to be an even more present father.
31:27
Speaker 2: Now we talked all the time, We text all the time.
31:30
Speaker 2: My daughter is not a statistic She's twenty seven years old,
31:33
Speaker 2: she don't have any children. She's a business owner, she works,
31:37
Speaker 2: she's college educated, graduated college early. I got out the
31:41
Speaker 2: day before her surprise college graduation celebration. Wow, I was
31:46
Speaker 2: able to make that.
31:47
Speaker 1: And so you surprised her.
31:49
Speaker 2: Oh she came and picked me up from prison for mom.
31:52
Speaker 2: So she.
31:54
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. When Marvin got out, he continued
31:57
Speaker 1: being the leader that he became inside. He and a
32:01
Speaker 1: few other men founded the Organization of Exouneries.
32:05
Speaker 2: The Organization of Exneries is a group of exouneries here
32:09
Speaker 2: in Michigan. You know, we started coming together as a
32:12
Speaker 2: support group. Valerie Noman, the director of the Conviction Integrity Unit,
32:16
Speaker 2: started bringing all the exuneries together. I think she really
32:19
Speaker 2: just wanted to just look in our eyes every month
32:22
Speaker 2: and make sure we was good, and to start opening
32:27
Speaker 2: up resources and finding out what we needed. And you know,
32:31
Speaker 2: just the way things landed. We got a great group
32:33
Speaker 2: of guys that can think and that was motivated and
32:36
Speaker 2: wanted to get involved in activism and advocacy, and we
32:42
Speaker 2: founded the Organization of Exouneries. Because there's so many gaps
32:46
Speaker 2: when it comes to someone being exonerated. You know, when
32:49
Speaker 2: people get out on parole, they do have some access
32:53
Speaker 2: to resources. But when you're exonerated, everybody washes their hands
32:57
Speaker 2: and like they go hire lawyers to fight you. But
33:00
Speaker 2: they're not concerned about your vitem documents. They're not concerned
33:03
Speaker 2: about your housing, they're not concerned about therapy, they're not
33:06
Speaker 2: concerned about any of these things. Yet we're suffering. We
33:10
Speaker 2: noticed that a lot of our guys were getting out
33:12
Speaker 2: and were struggling, taking us several months to get IDs.
33:16
Speaker 2: Couldn't even cash checks that people have for us because
33:19
Speaker 2: we couldn't set up a bank account without an ID.
33:21
Speaker 2: So we went to work creating those resources. So in
33:25
Speaker 2: our organization here in Michigan, when you get out, we
33:29
Speaker 2: have a straight line to almost everything you need. We're
33:32
Speaker 2: gonna put some money in your hands out of our
33:34
Speaker 2: Walking Free Fund. I'm usually want to take them shopping
33:38
Speaker 2: clothes and cosmetics.
33:39
Speaker 1: Where are you getting this money from?
33:41
Speaker 2: Well, we raise money. We are nonprofit with the five
33:43
Speaker 2: and one C three. We have gallas every year. I'll
33:47
Speaker 2: make sure you get to invite before October. We always
33:50
Speaker 2: do it in October. But we raised money We've made
33:52
Speaker 2: a lot of friends that really wants to see us successful.
33:56
Speaker 2: And we also apply for grants to make sure that
33:59
Speaker 2: we can so for our people to where we can
34:01
Speaker 2: do reparow services for exigneries here in Michigan. As you know,
34:05
Speaker 2: we travel around the country doing advocacy though it helps
34:07
Speaker 2: some people out in other states.
34:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys are really such an amazing support group.
34:14
Speaker 1: So you Ken Nixon, Eric Anderson really cultivated this amazing
34:19
Speaker 1: group of exguneries that you travel. I mean recently, a
34:22
Speaker 1: good friend of mine being from New York, Andre Brown,
34:25
Speaker 1: his conviction was vacated, but the prosecution was fighting that
34:30
Speaker 1: and trying to send him back to prison, and that
34:32
Speaker 1: looked like it was something that was going to happen
34:34
Speaker 1: after he had been out for a few years at
34:37
Speaker 1: this point with his family and his son, and you
34:39
Speaker 1: guys flew from Detroit to the Bronx to support Andre.
34:43
Speaker 1: You do things like that, and you know, coming up
34:46
Speaker 1: in Detroit, drell Ewing is having the same situation happened
34:50
Speaker 1: to him right now. Are you guys going to be
34:52
Speaker 1: there to support Durell?
34:54
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, in Michigan, as you know, it's a lot
34:57
Speaker 2: more progressive here. We have a lot of allies that
35:01
Speaker 2: work within the criminal justice system as well as allies
35:05
Speaker 2: that's outside the criminal justice system. You know, there's more
35:09
Speaker 2: of a willingness than it is just to oppose. Do
35:12
Speaker 2: opposition happen? Absolutely, dreil Ewing very brilliant guy, growing into
35:18
Speaker 2: a great organizer as well, and he's organizing an event
35:23
Speaker 2: around his case. Definitely support Derail Union.
35:26
Speaker 1: We will link to info about Derell's mobilization event, his Instagram,
35:30
Speaker 1: and our coverage of his case in the episode description.
35:33
Speaker 1: Please scroll down and get involved. We cannot let this
35:38
Speaker 1: clearly innocent man be dragged back to prison for the
35:42
Speaker 1: sake of a finality and conviction. We so hope those
35:47
Speaker 1: in power are called to do the right thing. And
35:49
Speaker 1: we're also going to link to Marvin's books as well
35:52
Speaker 1: of some of his other work.
35:54
Speaker 2: The entire time that I was in prison, I was
35:56
Speaker 2: planning the day that I walked out of prison, even
35:58
Speaker 2: though it felt differently different than the way I plan
36:01
Speaker 2: but all of my structural plans with setting up my life,
36:05
Speaker 2: starting a business, being a motivational speaker, being an author
36:10
Speaker 2: of not one but two books, I knew everything that
36:14
Speaker 2: I would do and I knew how I.
36:15
Speaker 1: Would do it, Doctor Cotton, Where did the doctor come from?
36:19
Speaker 2: I have an honorary doctorate in humanities from a university
36:23
Speaker 2: that wastow to honor on me. Because of the work
36:26
Speaker 2: that I do and the people that I help, I'm
36:28
Speaker 2: considered to be an expert in humanitarian work. Some of
36:31
Speaker 2: the things we talked about today. I service not only
36:34
Speaker 2: people that were wrongfully convicted, but also people that were
36:39
Speaker 2: directly impacted by the criminal justice system and deserve a
36:42
Speaker 2: second chance. And I try to make sure that they
36:44
Speaker 2: second chance is something that society can benefit from.
36:48
Speaker 1: I have in my notes that you have helped get
36:52
Speaker 1: twenty nine people out of prison. Is that an accurate number?
36:56
Speaker 2: Yes, both both innocent and those that deserve a second
37:00
Speaker 2: I do commutation packages, parole packages. I walk them through
37:04
Speaker 2: the entire process. I have other experts that I partner with,
37:08
Speaker 2: but support letters, but resources. We outline what their life
37:13
Speaker 2: is going to look like if they have the privilege
37:16
Speaker 2: of being released early. Now, if somebody refuse to see
37:20
Speaker 2: that people are redeemable, that's more of a them issue
37:24
Speaker 2: and it has nothing to do with the person. I
37:27
Speaker 2: mean people all the time that refuse to forgive. Imagine
37:31
Speaker 2: me refusing to forgive my biological father. And there's people
37:34
Speaker 2: in my family that's upset that I deal with them
37:37
Speaker 2: that were directly impacted by him. But he's clean, he's
37:43
Speaker 2: off drugs, he doesn't drink, he goes to church, he
37:46
Speaker 2: goes to therapy for the first time in his life.
37:50
Speaker 2: He's good for him. Who am I to have a
37:53
Speaker 2: forever judgment when God is still working and bringing beautiful
37:57
Speaker 2: things out of his life. Now, I'm just not willing
38:01
Speaker 2: to put a period on someone before God put a
38:04
Speaker 2: period on them.
38:06
Speaker 1: Doctor Marvincotton Jr. Thank you so much for speaking with
38:09
Speaker 1: me and sharing your story. Is there anything else that
38:13
Speaker 1: we missed? You want to say to the listeners.
38:17
Speaker 2: If you have a loved one that you believe has
38:20
Speaker 2: been wrongfully convicted and you're really trying to help and
38:23
Speaker 2: serve them and you just don't know how. Now, I
38:26
Speaker 2: can't tell you what to do, and I'm not even
38:28
Speaker 2: giving you advice. I'm not a lawyer. Let me say
38:30
Speaker 2: that I'm not an attorney, but just know that there's
38:33
Speaker 2: things you can do that will help you in the
38:36
Speaker 2: battle with this beast number one. This is my personal policy.
38:42
Speaker 2: I like to refrain from attacks. So I know it
38:46
Speaker 2: feels good and it feels natural to attack the police officers,
38:50
Speaker 2: to attack the prosecutor, attack the judge. But just remember
38:54
Speaker 2: you dealing with human beings and nobody likes to be attacked.
38:58
Speaker 2: You can get more things out of a human being
39:01
Speaker 2: by treatment. With their respect doesn't mean you can't hold
39:05
Speaker 2: people accountable. We love our children, we hold them accountable.
39:08
Speaker 2: We don't abuse our children. But you can hold people
39:12
Speaker 2: accountable without being abusive. Build relationships. Go to coffee hours.
39:17
Speaker 2: Go see what politicians are talking about. Go see what
39:20
Speaker 2: the person is running for, prosecutors talking about. Go sit
39:23
Speaker 2: in an audience, stand up, ask questions, Ask them about
39:25
Speaker 2: wrongful convictions, Ask them about cases that they've worked on.
39:29
Speaker 2: That's number one. Number two, start from the beginning. Learn
39:33
Speaker 2: about freedom information acts requests. Send it to the prosecutor
39:37
Speaker 2: office so that you can get files. Because oftentimes we're
39:40
Speaker 2: wrongful convictions. You have information that's hitting in files that
39:44
Speaker 2: was never turned over. It can be a single sheet
39:48
Speaker 2: of paper that can lead to freeing your loved one
39:51
Speaker 2: from a wrongful conviction. So start from the beginning. Of course,
39:55
Speaker 2: it's always good to support financially if you can afford
39:58
Speaker 2: a private investigator, I would say a private investigator even
40:01
Speaker 2: over an attorney, especially if you're trying to get the
40:05
Speaker 2: wheels to start turning, look at private investigators that worked
40:08
Speaker 2: on innocent cases before. If you're trying to figure out
40:11
Speaker 2: what attorney to get, look at attorneys that work on
40:14
Speaker 2: innocent cases. It is a difference between a good attorney
40:19
Speaker 2: and an attorney that works on innocent cases. They come
40:22
Speaker 2: from a certain pedigree. They have the energy, they have
40:25
Speaker 2: the passion. They love to spend all this energy on
40:28
Speaker 2: a single case because that's what it's take in order
40:31
Speaker 2: to free somebody that's been wrongfully convicted. So if you
40:34
Speaker 2: really want to help your love one out, send them letters,
40:36
Speaker 2: be supportive. The institution needs to know that they have
40:39
Speaker 2: somebody that loved them. Send cards, send letters, send messages,
40:44
Speaker 2: let them call every now and then if you can
40:46
Speaker 2: afford it. But on the legal front, there's little things
40:50
Speaker 2: that you can do to be helpful and to just
40:53
Speaker 2: get that ball to roll.
40:58
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Conviction with Maggie Freeling. I'd
41:02
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink,
41:05
Speaker 1: as well as executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wortis,
41:09
Speaker 1: and Jeff Clyburn. The music in this production was supplied
41:13
Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
41:17
Speaker 1: to follow us across all social media platforms at Lava
41:20
Speaker 1: for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow
41:23
Speaker 1: me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with
41:27
Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts
41:31
Speaker 1: in association with Signal Company Number One.
41:34
Speaker 3: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported
41:36
Speaker 3: in this show are accurate.
41:37
Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in
41:40
Speaker 2: this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect
41:43
Speaker 2: those of Lava for Good