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If These Flags Could Talk · Why We Do What We Do

0:00
Hey, everyone, just a quick heads up. There was some construction going
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on when we recorded this discussion. We didn't realize as we were recording how
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much some of those construction sounds blood into the audio background. You can hear
0:12
everything we say clearly, but there was some hammering in the background that you
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will hear during parts of the discussion. So now you know what is there
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and why it's there. Enjoy the episode you're listening to Why we do what
0:26
we do? Welcome to Why we Do what we do. I am your
0:38
symbolic host Abraham, and I'm You're waving in the wind host Shame. Where
0:44
a psychology podcast. We talked about all of the weird things that people do
0:47
around the world, in many cultures and in many different ways, but of
0:51
a similar form kind of Yes, actually, this topic is one of those
0:55
ones that people do have been doing for many, many many years, many
0:59
deck eight centuries even, and have strong opinions about too. Yes, that's
1:04
a way to put it. Anyway, As I said, we talk about
1:07
psychology things. If you would like to support the show, if you end
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as possible, like one of those car dealerships to have giant American flags exactly.
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And I'll talk more about the ways that you can support us at the
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end of this discussion, but I do want to note that we are currently
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figure out a thing. Yeah, but it'll be cool if we get up
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there, So consider joining us there and you can get the benefits both of
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being a Patreon and of getting hang out with us. If that's something you
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want to do. I hope you do. I mean, if you don't,
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then I would have so many questions and that would be such a blow
2:19
to my ego, which is so fragile already right, hanging on by a
2:23
thread. Well, this episode is going to be published on or is being
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published. You're hearing it now on the date that it's published, which is
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May tenth of the year twenty twenty three. And the May tenth comes with
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it some holidays for us to recognize. Yes, so today is donate a
2:38
day's wages to charity Day. That's very generous. Yeah, it says day
2:43
too many times in there. It's also National Receptionists Day, so be kind
2:47
to a receptionist, get them a gift. Yes, save all the PAMs
2:52
and Paul's and whoever is a receptionist. It's also Mother Ocean Day. Love
2:57
that sure. National Night Shift Workers Day. Appreciate those people who stay up
3:01
lates to keep everything floating and working the way it needs to. Have you
3:06
ever had a nightshift job? I have a couple of times. For brutal.
3:10
It is rough. It is rough. It's also a National Small Business
3:14
Day, so please go support small businesses. That's us. Yeah. We
3:17
are also Root Canal Appreciation Day. I guess you can appreciate what it's trying
3:24
to do. Appreciated the act itself seems a little tough. It's all order.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah that they had to make a day for it
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because they're like nobody, nobody appreciates this the way they should. That's right.
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And it's also World Loupas Day. Okay, yeah, good to know.
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Usually it's like awareness, it's just Lupas Day, where just like celebrating
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lupas. Yeah, I was, that's when I looked at up. It
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was World Loupas Day. Okay. Great. It is Arson Awareness Week,
3:47
so there isn't awareness out there, and yes, is of fire, yes,
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yes, be aware of fire. It is also Be Kind of Animals
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Week, which you know gets the WWDWWD stamp of approval agreed, Yeah,
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and lasts from now until May tenth of next year, I think, yes,
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and every year beyond that. That's right for the rest of time.
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It is also International Clitteris Awareness Week, so that thing to also know that
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it existence, yes, and more people should. It's also National Children's Mental
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Health Week super important, yes, indeed, and just in case you forgot
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already, it is also Root Canal Appreciation Week. Still there's a day and
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a week. I just want to make sure that everybody is really clear about
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that. It's a whole day and then the whole a whole last week.
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That's right. You get you get everything you need about from Canal Appreciation,
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one total package right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did look
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it up. May is not Root Canal Appreciation month though, so missed opportunity.
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That's it. One day. It could have been holidays nested within like
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days, weeks, months, It would have been great. What if this
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was like a misconstrued thing. There's like an actual canal that's like a really
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important canal for a community. It's called Root Canal, and that's what it
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was. But dentists were like they co opted it. They totally, they
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totally took it in there like it's ours, that's probably it. It was
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like a very important shipping route that every country on the planet used at some
5:10
point or uses at some point, and it was Root Canal. Yeah,
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dentist appropriated it. Yeah, the dentist took it. And now everyone's confused.
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All right, that's my favorite new lore. That's that's heed canon.
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Well, if you are a vexillologist, you will either love or hate this
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episode. So welcome vexillologists, amateur and professional among you. What is a
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vexillologist. I had a hard time saying that myself. That's a tough one.
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Vexillology is the scientific study of flags. So vexillologist is one who then
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studies flags as their job. I guess maybe hobby. I'm not sure.
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One of my favorite things is that every time we get into a topic,
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discover that there's some field of study around a very specific thing, like somebody
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had to put together this, like they were like, you know what,
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the study of this, the science of this, the research in this,
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like the degree that you get in this is vexillology. Now welcome to that
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world. Yeah. So there's just there's so many people in the world that
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this something like this can exist. And all that is to say that we
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are talking about as I mentioned flags, I'm talking about flags, what they
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are and all of that, And I think it raises an important question why
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what a psychology podcast talk about flags? Because they're everywhere and they are interesting
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as a form of communication intended to convey some kind of meeting without knowing the
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language of the communicator, so they are like kind of a universal communication tool.
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They are imbued with symbolism in nearly every aspect of the design, whether
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it's shape, size, color, symbols, where it's flown, combinations of
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all those things, and super super fascinating when you get into like how flags
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are used in those spaces. Yeah, and furthermore, where in the United
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States of America the USFA and flag culture in the US is particularly flamboyant,
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sometimes to the point of jingoism and sometimes to the point of it being comical.
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But flags are a very big thing in the US, Yes, and
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so this episode in particular is going to be a how to, like how
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to read and interpret flags as well as why it do explanation, as well
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as a history of and finally, here's some interesting stuff you may not have
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known type of discussion. So there's a lot to unpack here, but we
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won't We're not going to talk year off. Although there's kind of a lot
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of different things to talk about, they don't take a lot of time to
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talk about them, So I think this will probably be on a little bit
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of the shorter side. Although for us who knows what that actually means.
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I know, we can be a little long window. Yes, yes,
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yes, we always find a way to turn a thirty minute episode into an
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hour and a half. Yeah. At the end of every year, Spotify
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tells us we produced x percentage more content than the year before, and it
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just keeps going up. So apparently we like to talk. Yeah, it's
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trending up. Yeah, all right, Well, let's get into the background
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of this some of the information that you need to have to know about flags.
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What is the history of flags? What do we know about where flags
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came from? And in the vast internet of knowledge, the best that I
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could find for the origin of flag is we don't know. Yeah, most
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sources estimated thousands of years back that flags started, Yeah, with the longest
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estimate being eleventh century BC in ancient China. You know, that's as far
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as we've gotten so far. But it's important about that is what even is
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a flag? And the definition is relevant because things that we now call flags
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likely and almost certainly evolved from other forms of signage, particularly things like a
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standard and a military formation, which was kind of just a cloth banner that
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hanged down from a horizontal cross or other signage, things that people might have
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used. Right. Although a flag is generally described as a piece of material,
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usually cloth, cut into a particular shape, containing images depicting various symbols,
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icons, colors, or other images, there are things that function as
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flags or precursors to flags that were like made out of materials, including metal,
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And would that would be really difficult to burn a metal flag. It
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would be just melts. It doesn't do what you want to do in that
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case, not quite as a showy yeah. And furthermore, at this point,
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the symbolism of the flag is likely the most important part and really thinking
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about what a flag is conveying and what's on the flag, because you can
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now see flags depicted in many ways that don't involve cloth. So for example,
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flag might be painted onto a material, might have a flag that's a
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sticker that goes on like a car, or on a water bottle or whatever.
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You have flags that are tattoos that of course or that not made out
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of material unless you consider skin material. And if you do, then maybe
9:39
turn yourself into the FBI, yeah, or whatever law enforcement agency heads your
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country that investigates violent crime, or you know, anything where we can see
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the colors or shape of the flag depicted in some way. Again, the
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material part is the actual flag. But if I were to say there's a
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flag on that car, you might still understand that that flag as a sticker
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or a painting or something of that nature or decal and not necessarily an actual
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material flag that's mounted on it. Sure that makes sense. Because the origin
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of flag is uncertain, the reasons for its use are equally unknown. We
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don't really know where flags started as like a symbolic type of communication. But
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as we said at the beginning, generally the primary purpose of the flag is
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to communicate, specifically without having to speak the language other communicator or needing to
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be able to read. And so many flags do have text. We do
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recognize that, and it speaks to who the intended audience is for that message.
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But they can still be interpreted by somebody who doesn't speak the language,
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or at least they can understand that flag is trying to communicate something, right,
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and you can imagine that predating things like other forms of communication, radio,
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morse code, you know whatever. It is, the only way that
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people could communicate at a distance was to use often some either very very loud
10:56
sound or some kind of visual media and which has the benefit of potentially not
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being loud and attracting people to your position and that sort of thing. The
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flags then could be used to communicate, and as we said, it often
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did not have anything that was superfine detail like text. And you can also
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imagine that back at the time that flags were sort of starting to be used,
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that was way before literacy was going to be very widespread or even kind
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of common among most people, and so it really did need to be a
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symbolic representation anyway. Absolutely, so many people believe that flags were likely used
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early on for ships at sea to signal one another. They might signal that
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they had sick crew, to communicate the weather conditions, and to signal allegiance
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to one another so they wouldn't fire on one another, although this would mean
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that if it was an enemy flag, they might be fired upon. So
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there was a lot of sea battles, and especially when you get into the
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pirate age and all the fun stuff that went along with that and all the
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symbology around flags. It's always really great to hear those stories. And we'll
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talk a little bit about that later. Yeah, and then others also suggested
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that flags were used in combat and or initially or early on, probably both
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to signal and coordinate troops, but also there's some amount of it that was
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sort of peacocking to just look like there was a lot going on. You
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know, it's big and bright and flashy and colorful, and it adds to
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the mixture of numbers, so it can be kind of hard to tell exactly,
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and so it sort of gives a little bit more fanfare and is showy
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in that way. And then there was also probably general use for things that
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were like if you imagine a lot of signage that people had that might have
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adorned shops, It might have adorned buildings, It might have adorned government,
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it might have adorned a lot of things that were either material like a cloth
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or other materials that were meant to be some kind of signage, and that
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those essentially just went from a fixed position on a thing like a building to
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essentially being mounted on a more portable thing like a stick or a pole.
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Right, And so that's kind of where they probably originated as among those places.
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I try to think of some examples of flags that I've seen that kind
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of had an impact on me. In general, like when you think about
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the symbology of it and stuff. And the one thing I can keep going
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back to is in Dune, partly because I've been reading the Dune series,
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but the one vision that Paul keeps having is that as the Treaties start to
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expand across the universe, he sees the green flag of the Tredees on every
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planet. And so the idea like that was a big symbol of his kind
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of like his reign of terror as the as the Emperor and how that would
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apply and it was never like it was never war and blood and I mean
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that was part of it, but it was really kind of his big thing
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was seeing a flag, the flag of the Treaties on every planet in the
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Empire. Interesting, I did not remember that that detail of the flag specifically
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in those books. But yeah, I mean most people remember the worms,
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and that's that's fair. The other words are cooler. Worms are cooler.
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But the flag that has kept coming back to me. I was like,
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oh, yeah, that's like a kind of a pretty powerful symbol. It's
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good to just remember the you know, the Lord of Dune as we will
14:00
go forward, because it's just so good. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
14:03
everybody. Everybody's addicted to wormpoop. That's really what it is, like,
14:05
that's the that's the that's the story of doone and understandably, so,
14:11
yeah, wormpoop makes space travel possible. That's what Done is about. Well,
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we should probably talk more about wormpoop, but first we're going to listen
14:18
to some wormpoop and that is adds. Yes, Okay, so we were
14:28
just talking about wormpoop, but what we were going to talk about is more
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about the history of flags and sort of the why of flags in some certain
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ways. Now, one thing that I was thinking about is why flags are
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made of a flexible material? Why not just have it be that you're holding
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up like a board, like a billboard that has a sign or a piece
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of metal or whatever. And I actually had a difficult time tracking down any
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concrete information about this, but particularly thinking about cloth in like weather, you've
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got a lot of rain and that sort of thing. It makes it less
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resilient. But I think there were some very practical concerns that probably weren't involved
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in this. I just didn't find a lot of people talking about it.
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But one thing I did find so what sort of alluded to is that one
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of the things to consider is fabric as lightweight. So if you were trying
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to communicate a lot of information via signage, it would be a lot easier
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to mount that thing without having to really engineer a very sturdy pull or expect
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someone with very strong arms to hold it for a long period of time,
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because it just wouldn't weigh very much. So there's a very practical concern around
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like how tough your infrastructure needs to be to fly a flag. If it's
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very light weight, then you can essentially make it relatively cheap and not that
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rigid of a structure. And also just kind of thinking about the natural phenomenon
15:48
that is wind that would make it so that the flag can be seen periodically
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no matter what angle you're viewing it from, Matt, the wind will blow
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it in certain directions and make it facing and really two directions at the same
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time. If the flag is printed and created on both sides, right,
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yeah, exactly, so, then if you can see it from one side,
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you can see it from the other, and then as it sort of
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moves around, it allows it to be seen from many people. You're exactly
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right. Anymore. Flags are most popularly used to identify and represent a country.
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I think that one of the most common things people will know is that
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every country has a flag and nationalities, and there are also flags down to
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small municipal regions like states and cities. And they also belong to clubs and
16:26
groups of people and that sort of thing. So they might represent a specific
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government or system of government, they might represent a very specific geographical region.
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They're used kind of as anything that can be some kind of logo or iconic
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representation about some almost always a group of people in a particular setting, if
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you will sure. Now, although flags are used for communication or have been
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historically, they're used for other specific activities. So a person might use a
16:53
flag to signal the start of a race, to indicate the winner at the
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end of the race, the checkered flag, which is like the flag of
17:00
daytona beach, right to stake a claim on a newly explored area, which
17:04
is why there's an American flag on the moon, supposedly to indicate offsides in
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a soccer or a football game. And little flags in the grass to warn
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people not to walk, cut the grass or dig in a particular area.
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So there's lots of like lots of uses, whether they're just giant, big
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flags or like tiny little flags stuck in a yard over a cable. Yeah,
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so you can imagine flags serve all kinds of purposes. And I was
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trying to, you know, really trying to pull out examples of things where
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you wouldn't necessarily think of as being a flag, but they are, like
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they're functionally and topographically all examples of flags. Yeah, So essentially flags can
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serve many purposes. They can be a form of decoration. People, as
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we said, use them as warnings. They obviously use for messaging and advertising
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as well as signaling, and a lot of people use them to communicate some
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message, even when it's like a flag that is a national flag, how
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it's posted, where it's posted, all of that can actually have its own
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implications and meaning as people use it. Absolutely so would that being said,
18:06
I think it's important to recognize there are different shapes of flags. We typically
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are familiar with the rectangular flag, which is often used for national flags and
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state flags and all that in the United States, but there are so many
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shapes, like so many ships a lot. So does the kind of give
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a couple off the top of my head, and I don't know if you
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want to go over all of these, but some of these words are really
18:26
fun. So there's a rectangular flag, a square flag, a pennant,
18:30
a double pennant, a fanyon, a burgee, a swallowtail, a swallowtail
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and tongue, a gonfulon, a bumping, a flag with schwenkel, which
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I love. There's a ribbon, streamers or a flams and wind socks,
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just to name a few. Some that you might see outside of a business
18:47
include a vertical flag, a curved vertical flag, or a feathered vertical flag.
18:52
And the feathered ones are those ones that I feel like are like right
18:55
outside H and R blocks, are like do your taxes today? Yes,
18:59
sort of thing. Those advertising really common ones. But there's also just like
19:03
there's a bunch. There are these swallow tails. There's these penance and double
19:07
pennance and upside down pennance. There is one called the tampo, the curvy
19:11
arc swing. I mean, we're just giving you names, but essentially what
19:15
a lot of these are is there are flags that have like points on them,
19:18
so almost like they end in a bunch of triangles, or they have
19:22
like vs cut out of the end of the flag. They also have ones
19:26
that sort of curve downward like a bird's beak, or they curved downward as
19:30
a rectangles or sort of a curvy rectangle, or they end in streamers.
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There's actually one that has a hole. A flag with a hole is what
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it's called. So there's all kinds of different shapes that these flags take.
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There's there's tons of them, and they're they're used for different things. It's
19:44
actually pretty pretty fascinating. I think the raven banner is pretty interesting. It
19:48
looks like kind of like a quarter circle. Like it looks like kind of
19:51
like how you would draw a sun in the corner of a piece of paper,
19:53
right like as a child. Yeah, you know, you draw the
19:56
circle and they're like the little beams from it. It looks like that.
19:59
There's the shield, which is shaped like kind of like a medieval shield.
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And there's also two different types of rectangle. There's rectangular one to two ratio
20:06
and there's a rectangular two to three ratio. There you go, and so,
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as I said, what's interesting about flags is that they are basically meant
20:14
to be symbolic in every way, like they represent something, they indicate something,
20:18
they imply something, and so one of the things that is important about
20:22
flags is understanding the position of the flag. One position of a flag can
20:26
be supposed to upside down, and this is actually people, I'm curious if
20:32
you are reacting to an upside down flag and what that might mean. But
20:36
what you might not know is that the upside down flag officially is used as
20:41
a signal of distress and many many places. As a matter of fact,
20:44
the US Flag Code specifies that is the only acceptable condition under which to invert
20:49
the flag to be upside down is to indicate distress. So like on a
20:53
ship, for example, they might put their flag upside down and that means
20:57
like please help us as a thing, right, which made me think of
21:00
flags that have very symmetrical designs, like I think of the Japanese flag,
21:06
which you know when you turn upside down is the same flag. But that
21:10
goes back to some places just don't have a meaning for an upside down flag
21:11
that's not part of the code and the quorum of that particular flag. So
21:15
that made me think of that right away. Yeah, there are there are
21:18
a few that they can't be inverted, either forward or backward, or upside
21:22
down or right side up because they're perfectly symmetrical, or they might be symmetrical
21:26
in one way or not another. But yeah, they're right, they can't
21:29
be inverted. Of course, many people are probably thinking, and they're not
21:33
wrong, that an upside down flag can also mean like descent. They can
21:37
mean disapproval of their government, or that you are dissenting from the government in
21:41
some way. And in some countries that do not have the freedom to criticize
21:45
the government built into their constitution in their laws, flying an upside down flag
21:49
may be a punishable offense because they don't have freedom there. Yeah, were
21:55
you ever somebody who would fly or post an upside down flag? No,
22:00
mostly because I've had so few flags in my life that would not have been
22:06
an opportunity to do that. I remember doing that when we went into the
22:10
Iraqi War and in like kind of that that whole thing when we invaded our
22:14
Iraq and Afghanistan, and I remember posting stuff on it was like MySpace or
22:18
something, causing a ruckus with all the top friends and all that. Yeah,
22:22
so it was it was a whole thing. Now that was like kind
22:23
of like a punk symbol, right, Like, so it's like the upside
22:26
down flag was always something you saw it like punk shows, and like especially
22:29
with political punk bands like Anti Flag, I'm pretty sure sure their whole thing
22:33
is that they are like named after an upside down flag. Yeah, glad
22:37
you mentioned anti flag because I was not thinking about all the flag bands that
22:40
we could talk about. Yeah, black black flag, anti flag also too.
22:45
There's other symbols. There are other positionings, right that that mean different
22:48
things. A flag at half mast or half staff is most often used to
22:52
indicate mourning for someone, usually someone powerful, or maybe some kind of major
22:56
national tragedy. Yeah, after someone's passed away. But yeah, as you
23:00
said, national tragedy or someone has died is a common time that that'll happen.
23:03
And I actually found that that seems to be internationally fairly common. Yeah,
23:07
although definitely is the case in the United States. It seems to be
23:10
mostly if like a politician dies, is when they'll go to half masted,
23:14
right, or someone who is like a public servant in some way, But
23:17
almost never for someone who's just a celebrity, they would have to also be
23:21
like a public servant in some way. I did see, which was a
23:23
wild thing to me, Like Rush Limbaugh like when he passed away, people
23:27
were putting their flags a half staff, and I was like, no,
23:30
that's not right. Double staff. Yeah, to put it up higher,
23:33
which I shouldn't celebrate the death of others, but half staff does seem like
23:37
a bit of a stretch to me for I highly charged political figure. Yes,
23:44
like show host, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah,
23:45
yeah, that's kind That was kind of my thought, my general my general
23:48
thought on that, like, I wouldn't fly a flag at half masted if
23:51
Joe Rogan were to pass away suddenly, No, no, yeah, that's
23:56
the equivalent I think. Yeah, Now, an American flag will be displayed
24:00
backward. And what I mean by backward is that if you look at American
24:03
flag, if you're those that you're not familiar with it, on the way
24:07
that it's designed is on the top left corner is a blue rectangle with a
24:11
bunch of white stars in it, and then it's red and white stripes from
24:14
top to bottom. And if you were to flip that so that the on
24:18
the right top is the star, so it's not upside down, but it
24:21
is now switched to it's facing the other direction. That actually is something that
24:25
people do on purpose in the government, and so it's displayed in that backward
24:30
manner on the passenger side of cars, which in most of the world means
24:36
the right side of the car if you're driving in it. But in some
24:38
places where people drive on the right side of the car, then it would
24:42
not the passenger side would not be anyway point being passenger side for people who
24:45
drive on the left side of the road. Okay, what are the driver
24:48
seas and the left side of the car. It's also on the right sleeve
24:52
of military uniforms it has shown backwards, and it's actually this is considered a
24:56
sign of loyalty and respect, and it's because with an object like a car
25:02
or someone's shoulder, the forward motion of the object where they want the stars
25:07
to come first, so the stars would be forward. They sort of made
25:11
the argument that there is no upper left because it's on the right shoulder,
25:15
which I don't fully understand their logic there, but anyway, the point being
25:18
they want the stars to come forward, so if you're moving forward, then
25:21
the stars are in the front. And it also should look like what the
25:23
flag would look like if you were seeing it from both sides. So if
25:26
you imagine like the car being transparent if you have it facing the right direction
25:32
on the driver's side door, and then if you were to view it from
25:34
the other just flipped around, then the stars would then be on the right,
25:37
if that makes sense. And the same is true for the flag on
25:40
the sleeves of uniforms. Is that if you were to see it from the
25:42
left on the left, if the person was transparent and all you saw was
25:47
the flag on the other side of them, the stars would be on the
25:48
right. And so there's a whole thing about this being the official position that's
25:52
considered loyalty and respect to fly the flag. To have the flag posted backward
25:57
when it's meant to be on the right side of a thing. Interesting,
26:02
My educated guests would have been that you put the stars forward, because if
26:04
I'm running forward, that's how the flag would fly if I were holding the
26:08
flag up right. Yeah, so like it would fly with the bars,
26:14
you know, the stripes facing backwards or pointing backwards. I think that is
26:17
kind of what that means by putting the flag the stars forward, is that
26:21
there indicates the forward motion of it. I think you're right. Yeah,
26:26
Well, we have been talking about colors on the flag, so it's probably
26:29
worth diving into that a little bit because I feel like colors and we already
26:33
did an episode on like color psychology and all that, which I think is,
26:37
you know, if it's not necessarily related to this, but it might
26:40
be a fun listen to kind of dive into. But we know that part
26:42
of the communication of flags is the color of the flag, the color on
26:47
the imprint, or the symbolism within each color. I mean, we know
26:49
in the United States we've got the red, white, and blue. The
26:52
red and white are supposed to be the original thirteen colonies. Not necessarily the
26:56
colors being used as symbolism, but the stripes themselves the symbol right, Okay,
27:00
So a lot of times the colors that are chosen like they're they're often
27:06
meant depending on the situation, Like there's a high level of contrast people might
27:12
want to show, and so often like the most common meanings are the ones
27:17
they gonna get the most vibrant, most contrasted colors because of the easiest to
27:21
discern, and so common colors that you're going to see on flags are black,
27:25
white, red, blue, green, yellow, and orange. And
27:27
then the different combinations of colors can mean things because there are. Of course,
27:30
those aren't the only colors you can see. You might also see purple
27:34
and other, you know, other other colors, but those are the very
27:37
common ones anyway. And so we'll just sort of talk through what those different
27:41
colors mean when they're depicted, and then what different combinations might mean as well.
27:47
Right, So, I think the first one that might come up is
27:48
the black flag. And this can mean a couple different things. It can
27:52
mean determination, it could mean at the carritage. It can mean the feet
27:55
of the enemies. It can mean symbols of death or mourning. You know.
27:57
That tracks with a lot of kind like symbolism around the color black in
28:00
general. Yeah. In addition, people are probably familiar with that a black
28:04
flag can be some sort of sign of anarchism, anti government sentiment, that
28:08
sort of thing. Although apparently, and you might have known this, but
28:12
I didn't know this, a black flag is used to summon a race car
28:15
driver who's on a racecar track to come and stop at the pit stop for
28:19
quick maintenance. So you could be anti government or pro racecar. Yeah,
28:26
anti government or pro new tires exactly, all right. So the white color
28:32
of a flag is often used as maybe a possible surrender if you're in a
28:37
battle. You kind of see that a lot. When people say throwing in
28:40
the towel, they usually throw in a white towel to give up or surrender,
28:42
like in a fight or something like that. The color white is often
28:45
use a symbol of peace. Historically, it's been used to describe purity,
28:49
harmony, things like that. As a matter of fact, Stephen King uses
28:53
the color of white as the example of good in his world, and the
28:57
color red is actually evil, like something is of the red, they are
29:02
usually of the evil side, and of the white means that they are of
29:04
the pure good side. All right, I can say that. Yeah,
29:07
it seems like a lot of places have sort of adopted white to have a
29:11
similar meaning. Red is super common. You're going to see this in a
29:14
lot of flags, and red, as you might imagine, has a lot
29:17
to do with indicating some amount of like war or blood. It can also
29:22
indicate a sense of power. Revolution is a very common one, so you'll
29:26
see that in a lot of places. So red is meant to be sort
29:29
of this aggressive ish color. Although it's not meant to indicate the nation is
29:32
aggressive, it often is just could be saying something like this flag, this
29:36
nation, this government was forged from overcoming a wartime history, and so there
29:41
are a lot of meanings that could be indicated in that. Like there was
29:45
one where the government I believe that they gained their independence and they adopted a
29:51
red stripe in the middle of their flag to essentially indicate the lives lost as
29:55
in the fight for their independence. So it was not meant to be an
29:57
aggressive thing in that sense. It was meant to sort of honor those who
30:00
served in the revolution for their independence. Sure, I think that makes sense.
30:04
When I think of the color red is like a predominant color on a
30:07
flag, I immediately think of the Soviet Union. It's understandable. Well yeah,
30:11
yeah, yeah, you know, there's a whole history with that.
30:14
But I think even more so than that, thinking about how some of the
30:17
propaganda and some of the discussions around the nation itself was about power and strength,
30:22
and it made sense that that was like kind of like the primary template
30:26
for the entire flag. Yeah. Absolutely. The color blue, which is
30:29
a personal favorite of mine, is usually related to liberation. I like the
30:33
idea that it's related to good fortune. Yeah, that's kind of a nice
30:36
thing. There's some other people that will say that it stands for let's say
30:41
determination, like maybe the country is determined, they have persevered, which actually
30:45
tracks a lot with American history and kind of like getting out from under a
30:48
British rule. So it makes sense that you've got that kind of like that
30:51
swath of blue on the United States flag and liberation as well as part of
30:55
that. And then alertness, which I thought was kind of interesting. Yeah,
30:57
liberty is very common with the blue color, although it has also been
31:00
used to indicate things like open ocean and sky. So for example, there
31:04
are some island nations that have a blue flag and then there's sort of a
31:10
color icon in the center. I actually just say, like one that was
31:12
interesting to me is a place called Saint Lucia, which has as their flag
31:17
it's an all sort of sky blue flag, and it has this black triangle
31:21
that's actually meant to represents sort of the indigenous people that are there. It's
31:23
got this gold triangle that's meant to represent some of the sunlight and the warmth
31:27
and the fact this is like a you know, a place with warm and
31:32
sunny. Yeah, and then it kind of has this image of this triangle
31:34
in this blue field that sort of looks like an island in the middle of
31:37
water. So there's a lot of symbolism wrapped up in it that I think
31:41
was kind of really thoughtful and how it was put together that reminds me.
31:44
And we'll probably talk about this a little bit more later, but the flag
31:47
for the state of Florida is actually pretty thoughtful. It's white, and it's
31:49
got like kind of like some red bars on it in the seal in the
31:52
middle, and it's got some imagery of somebody standing in kind of like the
31:57
swampy like woodlands of Florida. So it looks like kind of old Florida and
32:01
has somebody like somebody who's an indigitous person, and which is like kind of
32:05
ironic. I'm surprised Ronda Santa doesn't try to change it. Yeah, but
32:07
fascinating. It's the only flag in the United States that has an exposed breast
32:12
on it. That's interesting. Yeah, so Florida's wild. So anyway back
32:19
to colors, the color green is usually in reference to something that has to
32:23
do with like fertility, which makes sense. You can see that with like
32:27
land fertility and growth. You see that with agricultures in places that have like
32:31
maybe a large agriculture industry. It could be used as youthfulness. It could
32:36
be used for hope. It could be used as prosperity. It could be
32:38
used as a few different things like that. But it seems to make sense
32:42
that it would be something related to the land and growth in that space.
32:45
Yep, and yellow, and there's sort of yellow and orange I think are
32:50
obviously somewhat similar to colors. But yellow has been viewed as it can represent
32:53
the sun, it can represent wealth and energy. It can also represent happiness
32:58
a sort of this way that yellows depend did that sort of sense of things,
33:01
and then orange can be a representation of courage and sacrifice, sort of
33:06
a blending of the red in there. A little bit. You might be
33:08
wondering how you might combine all those colors to depict a specific message. But
33:14
first, the cankersore of the media world advertisement. Okay, so we were
33:25
talking about the different colors that might be on flags and what those could mean,
33:29
but there's also very common combinations of colors that you'll see, and so
33:32
we'll address those right now. And one of the first ones that you might
33:36
be thinking about is red, white and blue. Yeah, you didn't say
33:38
that, right though. It's not red, white and blue. It's red,
33:40
white and blue. Sorry I missed the appropriate inflection. It happens.
33:45
It happens. So many Americans actually kind of look at this idea as combination
33:50
as our own. It's unique. We did this thing, we created this
33:53
what you know, I think it's kind of common for many Americans. I
33:57
think that we did this thing first when we are an incredibly new nation.
34:00
Yeah, people don't realize that kind of in the history of the world,
34:04
but this blend has been existent well before the United States and has actually been
34:07
found in a lot of European countries and just the name a few Croatia,
34:12
Czech Republic, France, Netherlands, Serbia, the UK, and Slovenia.
34:16
You see, it's kind of already existed. And this combination is usually a
34:22
way to represent We mentioned it before liberty, we talked about representative government,
34:25
we talked about independence. Those are typically you'll find those colors in those spaces,
34:30
which is ironic given that Russia is also red, white and blue.
34:34
Right now, Oh, I didn't know that they were blue right now,
34:36
figured it was still red with the hammer and sickle. Nope, it's red,
34:38
white, and blue, but the bars are horizontal. Weird. Okay,
34:40
green, red, and yellow color combinations you might see in some African
34:45
countries Congo, Ghana, Guinea, Mali. There's lots of places that you're
34:50
going to see that combination of colors. But there are also many places around
34:52
the world that include green, red, and yellow. We also see the
34:55
green red is very common as well as white and black. So you see
34:59
that those four colors together in a lot of the Muslim countries. So you'll
35:04
see that in a United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, I
35:07
think, Iraq, Afghanistan, the countries in the Middle East that have a
35:10
Muslim faith will often use the red, white, green, and black colors.
35:15
One other color that you'll sometimes see on flag is not as common is
35:17
purple, and that really is just meant to represent like royalty, wealth,
35:22
that sort of thing. So if you see purple flags, that often indicates
35:24
like a monarchy or a kingdom of some sort. You know, it's funny
35:28
that you bring that up. I cannot, for the life of me think
35:30
of a flag for a nation right now that has the color purple on it,
35:35
Like I can think of all the other colors I can think of,
35:37
like all I can think of those in one way or another, but I
35:38
cannot think of purple. Oh only three national flags Dominica, El Salvador,
35:45
and Nicaragua. Oh interesting, okay, yeah, use purple and their flags.
35:50
So interesting. Well, you'll find is like every flag that has flown,
35:53
at least for nations specifically, and that's kind of what we're talking about,
35:57
probably has like some very unique symbology or history behind why those colors were
36:00
selected for that particular flag. Yeah, exactly. So many of the colors
36:07
that are put on the flag represent a country's former relation to another nation.
36:09
What you'll find is that, like when a country has been colonized and takes
36:14
back it's independence, it might adopt the colors of the colonizing nation's flag,
36:17
as was the case of the original American flags. The United Kingdom's flag was
36:22
red, white, and blue. It's the Union jack. And then so
36:23
we did that, take that and we applied that. Fun fact, Betsy
36:29
Ross was apparently the first person who designed like the design the first American flag
36:32
that had the thirteen stars were the stars the circle of the stars. Everybody
36:37
knows about Betsy Ross. I heard that, and then I heard that there
36:38
was some dispute about the veracity of that claim. I just actually look it
36:43
up for this episode, so I'm not one hundred percent clear on that one.
36:45
There might be some people who argue against that. That's fine, they
36:49
can argue against it. I'm gonna say I'm for it because I am directly
36:52
related to Betsy Ross. It's reasonable. Yeah, it's in my family.
36:57
It's all I'm saying, Like, you're welcome for the American flag, is
37:00
what I'm saying. Let's see the white flag of surrender, which we talked
37:02
about a little bit, that goes back at least as far as the Roman
37:06
Empire. China will also was flying white flags around a similar time, so
37:09
it's not clear who did it first. It's possible this was sort of convergent
37:13
thing that both arrived at that Now China as they used in battle, they
37:16
would actually lead their armies with white flags, but as as a flag of
37:21
surrender, it was most likely started in the Roman Empire as far as we
37:23
can tell, and then it was used by British forces during the Revolutionary War.
37:29
In the United States, they used the white flag in combination with a
37:32
drum cadence that was meant to indicate a request for parley because they were they
37:37
were surrendering at the siege of Yorktown, Virginia. Hell yeah, they were,
37:40
sorry, they have been Southern just came right out of shape, you
37:45
know, it's a whole thing. Yeah, I'm not sure if that was
37:50
the first instance in sort of modern time is probably not. But anyway,
37:52
the Geneva Convention actually officially recognizes the white flag as a symbol of surrender,
37:58
and because of that, there are some specific rules around this, which is
38:01
that it's illegal to pretend to surrender and then use that as a way to
38:05
ambush your attacker, and it's also illegal to continue to fire on someone who
38:08
has raised a white flag. So I've always thought it was a little bit
38:12
weird to have wartime laws, but I also get like why there are wartime
38:15
laws because people will do terrible things. People will do horrible things. Yes,
38:20
anyway, that is the thing is that the white flag is a sign
38:23
of surrender. It has been for a very long time and is officially recognized
38:28
as such. Fascinating. It's one of those things you may have entered this
38:30
episode not thinking that flags were super interesting, but I think they're really really
38:34
cool and for these types of reasons. So there's some other interesting things I
38:37
found about flags and I thought would just be fun to share that didn't fit
38:40
super neatly into like a particular topic, But there are some things that I
38:44
found. One thing that I found was that the oldest state flag is Denmark's
38:47
flag from the thirteenth century. So obviously flags have been around longer than that,
38:52
but this is the longest one that seems to be. This has been
38:54
unchanged since then. It's just a red flag with a white sideways. Is
39:00
obviously meant to indicate some religious background with the government at the time that that
39:05
was developed. That makes sense. There also seems to be ongoing competitions to
39:08
break the world record for the largest flag, and the largest flag flown in
39:13
the world as of twenty twenty two was two thousand and five hundred and fifty
39:16
four point three one square meters as far as we can tell, because we
39:20
are on the Imperial system, as you can see by our flag, or
39:23
twenty seven thousand, four hundred and ninety four square feet thirteen square inches,
39:30
so about what we said five square miles. Yeah, about that five miles.
39:35
That's way too big. A flag is very very large that was created
39:39
and flown in Egypt, and I think it was specifically to break the world
39:43
record. The first Pride flag was flown in San Francisco on June twenty fifth,
39:49
nineteen seventy eight. I was looking up all the different Pride flags because
39:52
I was going to list them, but there are at least twenty two of
39:54
them. Wow. And they represent various aspects of gender, sexual orientation,
40:00
and intersectionality of those things with different backgrounds, and so there's just a lot
40:06
of representation in the different flags that mean different things, and the lgbt QIA
40:09
plus community. I love it. There's also the black flag with a skull
40:14
and two cross swords, also known as the Jolly Roger. It was actually
40:17
used by pirates and was meant to symbolize both that they adhered to no countries
40:22
rules and that they might do anything in a fight or to plunder another's boat.
40:25
Interesting, though, there are lots of different symbols that you might find
40:30
on pirate flags. So there's like red skeletons, there's a skull with cross
40:34
bones, there's a skull with a bone underneath it. Sometimes there's hearts,
40:37
sometimes they're red and yellow. Sometimes there's an arm with a sword on it,
40:42
and sometimes there's an actual hourglass, and they all mean different things,
40:45
which are really really cool sometimes too, as a matter of fact, because
40:49
pirates don't obey any laws or rules, they would capture different ships and they
40:53
would take those countries flags and fly them depending on who they were encountering,
40:59
and they'd be like surprise, gotcha, and then be a pirate and then
41:01
capture that flag. So yes, I heard about that as well. I
41:05
actually did see that the skull and crossbones was not actually the Jolly Roger that
41:10
came to be known as the Jolly Roger, but originally it seemed to just
41:14
be referred to the pirate flag as in general. Yeah, it was some
41:16
information that I had, so and I just found a list just that.
41:20
And this is something pirates always fascinating me, because there's just pirates in Florida
41:22
apparently, and my favorite baseball teams the Pittsburgh Pirates. But the skull meant
41:25
death, a red skeleton meant that they were particularly violent, a skeleton with
41:30
horns meant the devil dripping blood met a slow, painful death. Weapons like
41:35
sword, spears, daggers were violence and a pirate's willingness to fight. The
41:38
hour glass, sometimes with wings, meant that time was running out or flying
41:42
away, death is near. So a lot of them just mean like,
41:45
you're gonna die if you see them. Initials referred to the captain or to
41:47
his enemies. Raised glasses meant a toast to death or to the devil.
41:52
A clothes figure meant that it represented the pirates captain, and a naked figure
41:55
meant that it was the pirate's lack of shame. Wow, okay, that's
41:59
a lot. The scope of pirate flags was beyond what I originally anticipated.
42:02
Yeah, so fun. I just loved it. It was like different symbols
42:06
for like, yeah, you're gonna die. You're gonna die in different ways,
42:07
but you're gonna die. Yes. Basically, for those of us in
42:10
the United States who are listening to us from the southern part of the country,
42:15
you'll probably recognize the name Gadsden flag, But for those people who are
42:19
unfamiliar with it, this is a flag with a snake on it that says,
42:22
don't tread on me. Now. This was developed early in the country's
42:27
history as an anti British pro US government flag that was developed leading up to
42:31
the Revolutionary War and at the time as a note. Part of the reason
42:37
that there was a snake on it is at the time there was just a
42:38
lot of snake symbolism being used in various aspects of things, including multiple flags
42:45
that were intended to do the same thing that just weren't. That didn't get
42:47
as much popularity because I think people liked the coiled snake that was a rattlesnake,
42:52
and they also liked the short phrase don't tread on me, so that
42:57
one gained in popularity, but otherwise snake iconography was very common at the time.
43:01
That's a pretty powerful image. I mean, you see it, it's
43:04
like you know it right away. Yeah. Then the Paul flag is the
43:07
only flag that is not quadrilateral. It's actually a double pennant, which is
43:10
super interesting. So it's like two triangles. It's two triangles. Yeah,
43:14
exactly right. It's a cool looking flag, but it's the only one that
43:17
is not a rectangle. There have been up to what I was able to
43:22
find, at least twenty seven versions of the US flag. Now most of
43:27
them or some combination of stars and stripes like that's been the overwhelming theme,
43:30
and those are in various patterns, including three different iterations where the stars and
43:37
the blue part of the flag are arranged to be a star made out of
43:40
stars, so a bunch of stars a lot lined up to make a larger
43:45
star. That happened three different times. At least. There was one with
43:49
an eagle with a bunch of stars around it in the blue part of the
43:52
flag, or a circle or concentric circles made out of stars. And one
43:55
of the most original, and this is one of the things that we were
43:58
talking about early, is not only did we adopt the red, white,
44:00
and blue from the Union Jack British flag, but one of the first American
44:05
flags was the stars and stripes, but with the Union Jack where the blue
44:10
field now is, so we actually had the British flag inside the American flag.
44:15
And again that corresponds to the originating country of where the American colonists came
44:21
from. Yeah, I think my favorite looking at these is the Great Star
44:24
because it's just a pentagram in the blue field. There is a pentagram.
44:30
Yeah, it's it's it's not it's not a panagram. It's an upside down
44:31
star. Like the top point is on the bottom, so it's it's But
44:35
there's one that's like the stars a kind of off center. It's called the
44:37
Great Flower design. Yeah, it's like tilted. There are some countries that
44:43
have stars on them where the stars are in a very specific constellation. Like
44:46
I know there's one that has a constellation there. It's a country in the
44:50
Southern Hemisphere, and you can only see this constellation from the Southern Hemisphere.
44:53
It looks really cool on the flag. But they depict the stars in different
44:57
sizes on the flag to represent the brightness of the st ours in that constellation.
45:00
So some of the stars are bigger than others on that constellation on the
45:04
flag, which I thought that was kind of a cool artistic choice. Yeah,
45:07
and there are some states to have constellations. My first thought was that
45:08
California's flag had a constellation. It does not. It does have a star,
45:13
but it has a bear on it. So I was like, oh,
45:14
yeah, it's got earths a major on it. It might have at
45:15
one point in time, but it does not now. It just has a
45:17
big bear. Yeah, which you could imagine it was a constellation if you
45:21
wanted to. Yeah, you could. You could think of it as a
45:22
constellation when you need to talk about some more rules and regulations and laws and
45:28
things about flags on boats. But first we need to listen to some ads
45:31
on boats. All right, we're back. We're talking about the international maritime
45:43
flag laws. Yes, so there is an international maritime flag system that was
45:47
created in Britain. Surprise that the country that is known for colonizing so many
45:52
countries has created a thing that everybody they're like, everybody's going to use this
45:54
right, But it has been in place for over one hundred and fifty years
45:58
and the system uses square flags of different colors to represent different letters, and
46:01
ten pennants of different colors to represent numbers, and so the flags are used
46:06
in accommodation to signal other ships. For instance, the flag for O is
46:09
divided by a diagonal line from the left top to the bottom right the right
46:14
corner with red on top and yellow on the bottom, and that symbol means
46:17
that somebody's gone overboard. Some of them means like we're needed distress. Some
46:22
of them means like we have people who are in the water diving, like
46:25
don't come near because we don't want you to hit them, or anything,
46:30
And so there's lots of these different symbols. And actually a couple of the
46:32
flags are cut into the swallow tail sort of sign, although it's with a
46:37
square flag. But yeah, they represent the different letters of the alphabet.
46:40
Then there's the penance that represent different numbers, and a lot of these are
46:44
actually meant to communicate back and forth, like one of these flags just means
46:47
yes and another one just means no. And so they'll they'll basically raise these
46:52
flags to communicate to one another as a way of giving some out of communication
46:55
if there's not another way to do it. And they only use five colors.
47:00
They're only white, blue, red, yellow, and black. There's
47:04
no purple, there's no orange. Like they're very like, they're very stark,
47:07
very clear symbols when you see them. Yeah, And actually the ones
47:10
that are often used for the most like important distressing like this is need to
47:16
get your attention right away are the ones with the most vibrant, most easily
47:20
contrasted colors that are very easy to see, very little detailing, monochromatic.
47:24
Yes, it's just you need to be able to understand it at a glance.
47:29
What's going on? Absolutely all right, I think That's mostly what I
47:31
have to say about flags. Anything that I missed or anything we need to
47:34
add to talk about flags, I don't have anything else. I think it's
47:37
super fascinating. I think it's worth being able to see kind of Maybe if
47:40
you live in a place where there are multiple flags that represent where you're at,
47:45
I think it's actually pretty cool for you to kind of explore the history
47:49
why that flag was developed that way and where it came from, because it
47:52
might give you some insight on why a flag has like a bear on it
47:53
or a booby. It's right good. Join a vexillology club, Go find
47:59
some other flag enthusiasts, and learn all about the flags that are out there.
48:02
Fly your freak flag high. Yeah, we didn't even cover freak flags.
48:08
I don't really have a lot into for tacoms. I just think I'm
48:10
actually I'm not someone who's ever been super enthusiastic about flags, But what I
48:15
really appreciate is the symbolic nature of it. The fact that they are meant
48:20
to be communicative to a large audience very easily, I think is interesting and
48:23
kind of cool. So I thought it was worth spending some time exploring some
48:27
flags. Absolutely I agree. Cool. All right, well, I think
48:30
that is all that we have before we get to some recommendations. But first
48:35
I would like to do my thank yous the people who help make this podcast
48:38
possible. If you would like to join us and support us, you can
48:43
head on over to Patreon. There you'll get access to If you join us
48:45
on Patreon, you'll get access to things like early episodes, on edited episodes,
48:51
videos, our notes, and then if we come up with random content
48:54
that we like to post, then that sometimes will go out, like if
48:58
we talk to chat GBT and ask it to help us explain a concept.
49:00
Chat GPT notes will often make their way to Patreon, and this episode in
49:05
particular, we use a ton of pictures in our notes, which doesn't help
49:07
very much in an audio medium, but if you're getting our notes then you'd
49:10
get to see those things. So anyway, head on over to Patreon.
49:14
Help us get to our goal of fifteen so we can hang out with people
49:16
and it'll be a jolly old time over there. That's what I'm saying exactly,
49:22
And there are already people who have done that thing, and we really
49:23
appreciate them all of their continued support and the help that They've allowed us to
49:29
continue to do this show as long as they have, and that includes Mike
49:31
m Megan, Leyla, Mike t, Justin, Kim, Joshua, The
49:36
Daily BA, Brad, Stephanie, Kelly, Olivia, and Brian. Thank
49:39
you all so much for your support. Yes, we appreciate you so so
49:44
so so much. Well, perfect, let's go ahead and talk about some
49:45
recommendations and then we'll get out of here. Absolutely redations. So mine is
50:00
a comic series. I am as a child of the nineties, I am
50:02
a huge Nija Turtle fan. I understand. It is something that I was
50:07
absolutely obsessed with for a very long time, to the point where my parents
50:10
talk about how obsessed I was and I still have all my action figures from
50:14
when I was a kid. Wow, like all of the originals, it's
50:16
a sickness. It's a problem, is what I'm saying. But in the
50:21
last few years they have kind of revitalized the comic series through IDW Publishing,
50:25
and the comic series has been really great. They recently put out a storyline
50:30
called The Last Ronan Have you heard of this yet? I saw the forty
50:35
seven Ronin movie that was not that great. Different, different story Yeah.
50:39
So in this one, it's set in a in a like a post apocalyptic
50:44
future kind of where the Foot Clan have taken over New York City and there
50:46
is only one Ninja Turtle left and you're left to guess who it is because
50:52
they use all of the weapons because all the other the other three Turtles are
50:55
dead. Oh my god, and they wear a black mask. And so
50:58
that's the story. It's like, it's really dark and really kind of like
51:00
it's it's a very adult story. It's incredible though, and it takes some
51:05
twist and turns that you're not prepared for. It's heart wrenching and ends with
51:09
some really interesting kind of advancements that go along with the Ninja Turtle series.
51:14
So they just did it was supposed to be like a one series thing,
51:17
but they turned it into a new They the way it ended ended up with
51:21
a sequel series, which is gonna be really cool. It sounds like fun.
51:23
Yeah, it's fantastic, and the art is great, and it just
51:27
it's interesting watching a grizzled Ninja Turtle just like beat the crap out of everybody.
51:30
A grizzled turtle. Huh yeah, yeah, grizzled turtle, which is
51:35
like an odd thing to think about, grizzly turtle maybe. Oh, and
51:39
it was written by It was written by one of the original I believe it
51:43
was written by Kevin Eastman, who was one of the original creators of the
51:45
Ninja Turtles. Oh wow, that's cool. Yeah, I am recommending a
51:50
podcast. I've listened to you just a little bit of this one, but
51:52
we got to be in touch with the host of this podcast a little bit,
51:55
and I think it's worth checking out for many people. If you're interested
51:59
in psychology and other other psychology related things, this is definitely worth checking out.
52:04
This is called Meredith for Real. The Curious Introvert podcast should be available
52:07
as far as I know, on all the sort of regular podcast streaming platforms
52:12
similar to US. Covers a wide variety of topics, tends to have it
52:15
seems like a guest to come on and who's sort of an expert in the
52:16
thing. Men share their experiences and sort of talk somewhat candidly about that,
52:22
and it looks like the similar format hourish long sort of episodes. Then they'll
52:25
do a deep dive. One of the more recent ones I know was on
52:29
ADHD and meditation, so you can sort of skim through and look at what
52:31
kind of content stands out to you or just subscribe and follow along. But
52:36
podcasts worth all y'all check it out. Yeah, absolutely, And Meredith has
52:39
been a wonderful to chat with. I got to chat with her on our
52:43
Instagram page. So cool, awesome, All right, very good. Well,
52:45
I definitely need to give credit where credit is due. Music and editing
52:49
by Justin Greenhouse, writing and fact checking by Shane, Selena, Jess and
52:52
myself. And thank you all of course for listening to this episode today.
52:57
As I said, you can subscribe, leave a rating, interview, talk
53:00
about us to our friends. That sort of thing helps us all out.
53:02
Is there anything that I missed before we wrap up? Shane? Nope?
53:06
Perfect then, and I think that we are done. This is Abraham and
53:08
this is Shane. We're out. See yup, you've been listening to Why
53:13
We Do What We Do. You can learn more about this and other episodes
53:16
by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we hope
53:22
you have an awesome day.