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Misinformation In Skincare · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the second episode of Skincare Anarchy, titled Misinformation.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: In this episode, Ekta and I will be talking about the misinformation that exists in skincare, specifically in product development, testing, and marketing, and how that affects consumers like you and me.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: We will also talk a little bit about how misinformation has led to lawsuits using two case studies.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Lastly, we will talk about the framework that we should all adopt to be smarter consumers, which will not only save our skin, but also save us a little bit of money.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Ecta, I'm really excited about today's episode because I'm really looking forward to hearing more about the science behind the products and how it is being communicated to us, the consumers.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: You've made the point to me before that derms should be at the center of product development, but they're not.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, it is marketing that drives product development.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: To me personally, the terminology, the ingredients, everything kind of surrounding that is getting really complicated.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that in itself is a marketing tactic.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I completely agree with that.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think there is absolutely no accountability being um, you know, exercised in terms of who's leading this movement, um, why they're making these products.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: It really is, like you said, this marketing gimmick that has just kind of snowballed to a point of like, you know, not being stoppable at this point.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I completely agree.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and the being dermatologists being at the lead of this is just so important, you know, just doctors in general, I feel like.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because we're talking about our skin, and like you said in the previous episode, you know, we're treating the skin to some extent because of a pathology that it would have, right?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, what has been really interesting to me is that more and more uh companies are publishing uh clinical study results as part of the marketing.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I'll be completely honest, I'm completely ignorant about this.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I'm ignorant about the types of clinical studies that exist.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you can start there and explain how testing is done and what types of trials even exist.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: So there are so many different um terms and statistics, and um, especially when you go into any kind of a research study, um, you have to really make the decision of your experimental model.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, like you have to decide am I going to run a clinical trial versus a um, you know, like a like a past study, you know, like a like a cohort study that was done based on user feedback um versus, you know, a projection study where you're looking for certain, you know, again, like with the surveys, you give people surveys and then they, you know, report to you.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: So there are so many different um designs that can be adopted for any kind of a research study.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately in dermatology, a lot of the things that we're seeing are very, very heavily based in relying on user response.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_03: And also when you say user response, we're talking about anecdotal evidence, right?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly, exactly.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so a lot of times you they're, you know, and the problem really is not even just that, it's that the participants that are being picked for these studies, you know, the idea of blind and double blind comes in, right, at this point, because you're not truly like I the biggest concern I'm seeing is the the population that is being represented is not accurate because you know, you cannot have a study that is primarily composed of 80% Caucasian women, but then you're talking about a product that you want to apply from a marketing standpoint to the entire spectrum of race, you know, our different races, right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: So you can't do that, and that's a lot of the stuff that I see when I go into the research is that these these uh individuals that you're testing with or you know, um surveying are not real a true representation of our population.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, and this from a statistical standpoint, of course, anyone can run a study with a hundred participants that are from varying ages of 18 through 45.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: And but like, does that really represent anything?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: No, because you're not there's no control, you know what I mean?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: There's no control in your study, there's no like basis on which you're making your claims.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: So right.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with what the gold standard is.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: You made a reference to this before.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's the double blind, um, what is it?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: The double blind yeah, it's a double blind um study in which basically everyone like your the person who's recording the data isn't aware of like who were the participants, and the person analyzing their date data isn't aware either.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_03: So everyone is kind of blinded to who's participating, you know what I mean?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: So there's no bias, and there's like the the occurrence of bias is going to be extremely limited in those kind of studies because you're not just it disclosing this information.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's truly just true randomization, you know what I mean?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: So and my understanding is in a double blind study, there's a group of participants that are given um the product with the active ingredient, and there's another group that's given a placebo, some you know, a similar product that doesn't have the active ingredient, and the participants don't know whether they have the placebo or the active ingredient product, and the the information is collected from that, right?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, so that's not necessarily the idea of double blind, but I know what you're talking about.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: So that's basically like a um that's just the experimental design of the study.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but like, yeah, like a lot of these studies that in skincare especially are going to have that placebo versus the actual product, you know, and most good scientific or you know, research designs are usually like that, you know, even if it's in other aspects of medicine, you're gonna see that placebo aspect and then you know, um, the actual things you're really testing.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: But the double blind really comes in where you know the scientists themselves aren't like completely aware of who is who, you know what I mean?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: And the in the in the pool of participants.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: So that's very important, right?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like there's no bias when you're reporting the data.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's the I think the real fundamental thing we need to focus on is these people who report it, you know.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So say you have a prescription ointment that's coming out, say it's like a prescription retinol cream from the dermatologist.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: For that to have passed muster and to hit the market, the pharmaceutical company company that developed that retinol cream would have used a double blind study.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: Ideally, ideally, yes.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's not, and see, this is where we run into the problem because there's no there right now the way that medical research is conducted in our country, also I would I dare to say worldwide, is there's no set criteria for how and what kind of studies need to be conducted for what part of medicine.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, like basically pharmaceutical companies can run these like survey analyses of just people reporting, you know what I mean?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: And just say, hey, like this worked for me versus this didn't work for me, and they'll use that as just as good of a study as something else that you and I would think is just more controlled and you know, um better structured overall.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, ideally speaking, to answer your question, yeah, we would hope they're double blind studies, but especially with things like retinol, you know what I mean?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like because it's you would think that this is the closest thing to like, you know, a prescribed in you know, a prescribed skincare product that you can give to somebody, right?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: But unfortunately, a lot of the research out there for um retinoid derivatives is not they're not like that, they're not double blind studies, they're not um well-managed studies.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: They're they don't even have enough participants, in my opinion.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So to try to statistical um I I guess threshold for participants.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: How many do you really need to have a good uh pool of participants to obtain reliable data?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that's a really great question.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that um a lot of statisticians and people will have different opinions, but from my standpoint, um looking into the research, I think at minimum you should have, you know, a hundred because I go off of, you know, when I think of statistics, I go off of percentages.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, if you don't even have a hundred people, right, you can't truly make any kind of a like a percentage model, you know what I mean, or any kind of ratio.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you can't record any of that because you don't have enough people to represent the ideal, like, you know, like basically a hundred, right?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's you know, I don't know how to explain that, but um, yeah, so at the minimum a hundred, the more the better, you know, and it's like there's really no cutoff, but you know, I know that the higher the number, the more obviously, the more um accurate it's gonna be the results are gonna be, you know, but yeah, but if I were to do it myself, I would be looking into at least getting a hundred people that fit and match the criteria for which I was testing.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: So within that hundred, you you're advocating or your position really is uh a range of um ages and a range of um would you say male and female and skin tones, or does that matter?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so that's another, those are all factors of controlling your study.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: So really what you want to do when you create any kind of experimental design is you want to control for all of these different variables.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: So you want to make sure that if you're testing a product, for example, let's go with the retinol example.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: If I'm testing retinol and I want to see how this works on Caucasian women, right?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: I need to define an age group, define the gender female, and define where I'm getting this like this population from, where I'm picking them from.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: It can it can't be half of them can't be from Sweden and then like the rest are scattered throughout the world.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: It has to be like a representation of the population you're testing this in.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: So um as many parameters as that you can that you can control the better for a study.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that uh, you know, it's interesting you even bring this up because that's not even reported in a lot of these studies.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: They don't even tell you where these participants came from, their background.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: None of that is reported.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: So you really you're saying this was tested on 182 women, but I don't know where they came from.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if they came from an environment like a tropical environment where their skin is going to be more, you know what I mean, like it's exposed to humidity more versus somebody who lived, you know, in Canada.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's very, very it varies so much.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the biggest component is that you're not controlling these variables and you're not producing legitimate scientific results.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and because of that, you absolutely cannot say that based on these studies, we're going to put you know come out with this product that is shown to have quote unquote proven results because those results are meaningless, you know, in a medical perspective.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's interesting you should say that because I have pulled up three different brands and how they are uh uh reporting clinical trials.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna I'm gonna first read uh a portion from Peter Thomas Roth, which I don't think he's a dermatologist, right?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I don't I don't know much about him.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think he is a dermatologist.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay so their tagline is clinical skincare.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they're really, really pushing the fact that their products are tested and they use supposedly clinical ingredients.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll kind of touch base on this later because they've been sued for that.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: But so for the pro-strength niacinamide discoloration treatment, they report two consumer panels.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So they say in a six-week consumer panel study on 34 women, which that's not a lot of women, you know, they send out PR to more people than 34 people.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's ridiculous.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, ranging in age from 29 to 64, which is completely arbitrary, I feel like.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Users agreed.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: So this is completely anecdotal.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Users agreed.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: Dark spots and sunspots were less visible, skin looked brighter and less dull, skin clarity was improved.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: See, this is exactly I see.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: This is exactly, I feel like that study encompasses everything we just talked about.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, I mean, it really is that idea of relying on you know, self-reporting, first of all, which is absolutely just you can't because how do you measure that, right?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: How do that?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like there's no way to like would you like this?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: Is my question to people, right?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Would you want me to be testing?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, for example, we're dealing with COVID.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Would you want me to be testing the vaccine on self-reported claims?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: Or would you want me to be measuring your antibodies towards you know what I mean?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: That kind of right.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, do you want the real medicine or do you want to just make this stuff up?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, first of all, they're self-reporting.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: Second of all, 34 people is literally nothing.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I can go down the street and get more people than three.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, you know, okay, so there's that, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then they say they apparently conducted a 12-week consumer panel on I'm assuming the same set of uh people, because it says 34 women ranging in age from 29 to 64, and they say um, based on this 20, 12-week consumer panel, skin discolorations were less noticeable, and discolorations they had for years appear appeared to have faded.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they use all of these uh words that uh give them a little fudge room, you know, appear to have faded.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: What is that?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: What does that even mean?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: H spots were less visible, post acne and blemish marks looked faded.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't, it doesn't say they faded, it says looked faded, skin tone looked more even.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's interesting.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so let's move on to Dr.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Dennis Gross's skincare line, which he's a dermatologist.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: They also publish um results on their product pages, and this is for the adaptive superfoods stress repair uh face cream, which is what I'm currently using.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so they have a little picture that you can toggle back and forth to see how it worked on an actual person.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then they say experience real results in an independent clinical study, and they don't list like any parameters, how many people, or anything like that.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: They just say 100% saw a significant improvement in hydration, which is so funny to me because you can take water, put it on your face, and say, Hey, I felt 100% improved in hydrogen.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that is so true.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, when it comes to hydration, it's so crazy.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, what do you mean?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like 100% improvement in hydration.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so we know, and I want to actually say this because I don't think most people understand that when you're talking about hydration in the skin, you're really talking about transepidermal water loss.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really what should be like measured.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so a lot of times when you hear about dermatologists talking about how much water is in your skin and are you well hydrated, are you dehydrated versus hydrated?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: They're really talking about that TEWL um, you know, score.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that is really what you're looking at.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly what you said.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: I can splash water on my face and be a thousand percent more hydrated, but that doesn't mean anything at the end of the day.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: It just doesn't mean anything.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they also say 96% saw a significant improvement in skin smoothness.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and 88% subjective, like that's right.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And 88% saw a significant improvement in skin redness and radiance.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, I don't know what significant means, because that means something to something different to me than to you, than someone else down the street, right?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not going to go into like the full stats, but I can tell you when when any kind of study reports statistical data and they say it is significant, it's a P score that they're reporting.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: So um the P score is like the statistical, like it's the coefficient of significance, you know what I mean?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: So like that's usually done by statisticians, take the information, they basically run a bunch of tests on it and see if there's any kind of correlation, you know what I mean, that they can find, or if there's any kind of like, you know, trends that they can find, and then they basically come up with this this p-value that is either going to be it's gonna be accepting or rejecting your hypothesis kind of thing.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that's a whole bunch of information about stats that I know nobody really wants to dive into.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's an interesting point that you should uh bring up because that's not something that they're collecting here, though, right?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can't take a P score.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are they actually measuring people's hydration?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way to do that.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's no way to do that.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, okay, so Sephora is also notorious for this because in their clean skincare line, they have stats all like on almost every page.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, and they say clinical results down.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm looking at the drunk elephant proteini polypeptide moisturizer.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, if you go down to the bottom, it says clean and Sephora clinical results in an independent consumer testing panel of 50 women aged uh 25 to 55.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: 100% agree their skin felt replenished and nurtured.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know how you measure that.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: Do you just wake up in the morning morning for hands down?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's a very nurture.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's ridiculous.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: What is nurture?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: What does that mean?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: 97% agreed their skin felt moisturized.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: I would hope so.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would hope a moisturizer would moisturize your skin.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: I felt like my skin wasn't tight this morning.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Good, but because they put something on it.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: 97% agreed their skin texture felt soft and smooth.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's so funny to me because they run these testing panels and there's such a sh small number, right?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: But whenever you see these companies send out PR, I mean, they send it to hundreds of people.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: So fair thing himself is your.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like what's happening is probably like they send it to 100 people and like 80 of them say your product sucks.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then the 20 that actually report are probably the ones that are like, yeah, look, you know what I mean?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: 20 out of 20 people said that our product is amazing and they feel nurtured.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's so ridiculous.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I cannot believe that this is even published information.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, literally, and I want to know actually, my biggest thing is I want to know the the biggest people I want to hold accountable is the these journals that are publishing these results.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so like another word that you you mentioned, which I saw is so interesting to me, is that they say clinical study, quote unquote.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: Now, that is so like deceptive, if I'm being honest with you, because usually when people hear the word clinical and they don't really think about the next word coming after it, their mind goes to clinical trials.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: So that clinical studies that they're usually used to are clinical trial studies.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: These are not clinical trial studies.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: So like saying something's a clinical study is basically just garbage, like it doesn't mean anything, you know what I mean?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like I could like go eat dirt tomorrow and be like I'm conducting a clinical study to see if I get sick.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know what I mean?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it doesn't mean anything.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's just once again marketing, a play on words.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, using the fact that most consumers are not very well versed in like stats and scientific terminology and using that as just a marketing gimmick, you know what I mean?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I it's terrible.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like I find that to be so terrible.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you can't do that.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: The level of qualification, uh qualifying words they put into these marketing um, I guess, reports, you know, the the pages, the product pages, is to me as a lawyer reading this, I can pick out these qualifying words because I use those words, right?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's something you know that we put in letters that we I mean clearly a lawyer has looked at this because guess what?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: PTR has been sued, uh Dr.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Dennis Gross has been sued for misrepresenting and um making claims that cannot actually ever be true.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the um do you remember the rose stem cell mask?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, oh my gosh, so I think I actually, yes, at some point I think I reviewed it, and the only thing that I really felt like it did was, you know, moisturize.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they got sued.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: There was actually a class action against PTR, uh where they claimed their products were based on pseudoscience.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there was, you know, there they claimed it was falsely advertised and that it was scientifically incapable of achieving promised benefits for which consumers pay a premium price.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think part of what they were pushing is that the rose, they were getting these stem cells from the rose, and that somehow has some kind of anti-aging benefits.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: To your skin.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know like where to begin on that one.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: Seriously.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's one, you're using a completely different species.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's let's just let's just start there.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: Can we just it's not even a mammal.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like what this makes no sense.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like okay, so my understanding is even like can someone else's stem cells help you?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, or does it have to be your own stem cells?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, absolutely not.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like, okay, I'm not gonna say absolutely not.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's no absolutes in science and medicine, but like I will say that like stem cell research is an incredibly complex field, and you definitely any of the progress that we've seen in stem cell science has been associated with like an internal approach where you're implanting them on like in a way that there's adequate blood supply going to these cells and these grafts.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: There's like a lot of stuff going on that's just supporting their growth.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: Putting them topically on top of your skin is definitely not meaning to spite you like you are not like you know what I mean.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: So, like really measuring the like efficacy of using these quote unquote stem cells.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, how are they surviving in that medium?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's my biggest question, first and foremost.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: That was something that the case pointed out.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: They said plant stem cells are fragile and cannot survive the manufacturing, shipping, and storage to which the rose that stem cell products are necessarily subject.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's the thing.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like stem cells have to be cultured in a very specific medium.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's called medium, like the culture plates have like like the solution we put in it is it has like the growth factors necessary for normal differentiation and like all of these different things that are needed for stem cells to differentiate into the stuff that we want.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: So this makes absolute no sense what they're saying.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like it just doesn't make any sense.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting because uh the water drench line is also another set of products that I tried out, which I liked.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I thought it it made my skin feel really nice, it felt hydrated, all of that.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel nurtured?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I felt nurtured, but it coddled my skin very well.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: But there was a class action against PTR against that line too.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um let's see.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess PTR claimed that that products draw moisture from the atmosphere into the user's skin, and that the product will hold a hundred times its weight in water and provide hydration up to 72 hours.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that means nothing.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's they're just describing a humectant.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: We've already, by the way, I don't I don't know how much people know this, but like any dermatologist you've talked to is going to tell you that we have natural humectants already present in our dermis.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: So, like putting it on your epidermis and the very top of your epidermis is not doing anything, like the water that you need is on in your dermal layers.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: So, like putting like literally, like, you know, it was like I had interviewed Dr.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Natalia uh Spearings, right, a couple of weeks ago, and she made this great point is that you know, how much of what like how much do you really need in your dermis?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: And do we want to go in there and change things, right?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like that's the fundamental thing I think nobody wants to focus on, and I think it's a massive problem in terms of all of this miscommunication and this, you know, basically bad science, pseudoscience, you could say, that's being propagated, you know, because it's like no one understands that, yeah, hyaluronic acid is found in your dermis, it is not found in your epidermal corneocytes.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's not, it's not something that's you know, you don't need that sitting on your skin.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's not necessary, you know.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: So yes, yeah.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's interesting.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've had miss mixed results with even applying hyaluronic acid to my skin.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, we have the ordinary and a couple of other brands that come out with these single ingredient products, and we think, oh, you know, mm applying this to my skin is going to give me some kind of benefit, and so I've been sticky, and you just kind of to work with it.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for me, I it feels nice, but then you know, 30 minutes later, 40 minutes later, is it really doing anything?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't really know.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no way for me to really evaluate that either because I don't know what's happening.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: No, and that's such a good point, and you know, like this actually makes me think of those weird little devices that a lot of like Asian bloggers were using for a while that they put it on their face and they measured their like nitration or something.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: Do you remember those?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do, yeah.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't even know how that works, first of all.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm just gonna assume that it's some sort of like light technology, but like I think that's complete garbage because you're like it's like you said, you're just putting this on your skin, getting through and making a difference in terms of the composition of your skin is a whole different area that's called dermatology.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's that is literally the whole different argument, and it's a whole different type of science that needs to be involved.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we can only layer so much onto our skin surface.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: And now, am I gonna sit here and say everything is useless, don't use anything?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: No, because I think some of us, you know, it's like, yeah, some of us do feel nurtured, you know, when we use that certain moisturizer or when we put that certain product carb, it does make your skin feel smoother.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: I know I'm I'm definitely guilty of that, you know.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like there are certain things I absolutely love, but am I gonna be foolish enough to think that oh my god, I'm going to not age anymore because I'm using this regular.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: No, you know what I mean?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's just it's like I feel like it's picking and choosing what you want to believe a product is gonna do for you, you know?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that brings me to my next question.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: What about placebo effect?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you and I privately had a conversation about okay, we're using all these products.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I'm providing, I mean, I'm always strive to provide my absolute honest, 100% honest thoughts on something, and I'm not gonna say anything that I don't feel is to be true.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: But then I go back and you know, with everything that I've learned through you and um watching dermatologists online, I'm thinking, hey, is my experience true?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, did I experience that correctly?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess my question is, are we all just kind of internalizing these marketing messages?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And is that affecting our reviews?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's such a valid, yeah, it's such a good question because honestly, after we had that talk, I know what you're talking about.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: I went and online and I was gonna actually do a post on about this on my Instagram, but I looked into the placebo effect of even things such as beauty supplements.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because if we can have a placebo effect from something like that, then to assume that we're having it from topical um, you know, things that we're applying topically is definitely gonna be there.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: And with the studies I found for these, like, you know, all these like um vitamins that are like being used, right?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: So like in increase like skin, you know, collagen production and all of this stuff.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: They found um one of these studies found that the placebo and the actual treatment group, like there was no difference in the results, like literally, like you know, I just I was so shocked when I saw that because I for sure believe that you know what, maybe this is one area or one aspect of skincare that could actually have some validity behind it, but it looks like there's really not, you know, and it's like if there, if you if something you're ingesting and actually you're putting into your body to go undergo normal metabolism and then be utilized in the areas it needs to be used is not working, something putting putting something on top of your skin is definitely not gonna be working.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I think there's a huge placebo component of all of this, you know.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um I I think a lot more you know information needs to be provided in that area.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of coming back to dermatologists' owned brands, so coming back to Dr.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Dennis Gross, and I hate to be picking on like the two or three, but I feel like you know Well, there's a big ones, right?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're the ones, yeah, those are really big, right?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting to me that you know, he's a famous, famous dermatologist, but he has like tons of products.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's some that I absolutely believe do change your skin, like the peels.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've been using the peels, and they've they've helped my skin.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the scars are fading, like very visibly fading.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: But again, you know, you're sawing off layers of skin, so it better be doing something positive.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but he has these other products that you know science has been questionable on.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, he has the uh gross, uh Dr.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Dennis Gross C collagen deep cream, and he says it's a vitamin C cream that has collagen amino acids that deeply hydrate, smooth, and brighten your complexion.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: So apparently he's been sued on this.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's a lot of claims.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's a lot of claims, yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so there was this lawsuit for this particular product where he uh apparently the lawsuit claims that there isn't actually any collagen in the product.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Which, okay.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess my questions are um it's saying collagen deep cream, but does it first of all, is there a miscommunication to the consumer that topically applied collagen is what helps collagen?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because to me, like I'm thinking, okay, even if it doesn't um have collagen, my logical conclusion from reading this would be there's something in that product that's gonna help collagen production in my skin.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you would hope so, right?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: Even like so, this goes into this is so good because I love that people are kind of dissecting these products more now.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because, first of all, let me just be honest, collagen is a huge molecule.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: So the production of collagen is truly what you want, the natural production of it.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where a lot of things like um copper peptides and like peptide formulations come in, because those are actually said to promote collagen synthesis versus just putting collagen on your face because that truly does nothing.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: Again, you want collagen to be in your dermis, you don't want it on sitting on top of your skin.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: That it doesn't, you know what I mean?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't do anything.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: So that is a huge claim for him to have, first of all, like any kind of cream or moisturizer that says this is like literal collagen for here you go, like that's yeah, that's useless.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: If anything, I would think from like a now, I'm not a dermatologist, but I would think that if you know, from a medical standpoint, it's almost like a negative feedback effect where like if you're putting too much of something on your skin, your skin, like any other organ in your body, is going to say, I don't need any of this anymore, so please stop making this much.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I and I know that a lot of people, um, a lot of dermatologists have um published studies where with other things where they found that to be a thing.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: For example, with ceramides, they found that like if you put too many ceramides on your face, certain those specific ones, your body will stop naturally producing them and you'll end up having a deficiency of them.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, you know, yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's really like almost like you're doing an uh disservice to your own skin health by putting all of these things on top of it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I I definitely disagree with him saying this is gonna help your collagen production.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think a lot can help collagen production.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's a huge area of science and medicine that is very deeply rooted.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: And it it, you know, if we could figure out what helps collagen production, I promise you the first people on that would be um dermatologists bone doctors, you know what I mean?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like rheumatology and you know.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that totally makes sense.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: But orthopedics would be all over that, I promise you.
• 33:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it's interesting because you know, collagen and skincare has been like the new thing.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: I guess not new, but in the last few years, that's been like the it thing.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess this is another example of marketing driving products development as opposed to the dermatologist, even though it's a dermatologist's brand, they still have to feel I bet they still there still is pressure internally to develop products that stay on trend, um, or otherwise, you know, they risk being kind of boring, more or less.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's good, that's a good point because it's like if you think that a brand is coming from a dermatologist, you automatically want to assume there's science behind it.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: But in a lot of these cases, that's just not true.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like putting a doctor something, something label on a brand doesn't mean that it's tested more or it's looked into more, studied more.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's just simply another marketing gimmick.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's all it is, you know?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've been kind of browsing the website a little bit more as you were talking, and you're completely right.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all the before and after pictures are on white skin.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even see one person of color anywhere, uh uh on which, you know, product results have been demonstrated.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's such a that's such a huge point that needs to be talked about in these products, is because like women of color, we have so many different skin concerns.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that like a lot of dermatologists will say, well, there's no difference.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's either you have a lot of melon or you don't, and that isn't I mean, I I'm not fully convinced on that data, so I don't like it when companies are just giving you like white women to look at.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's like this tells me nothing because I don't even have those skin concerns that she has.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, exactly.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree because you know what the excuse me, the women in my family, I mean, they just have great skin, they don't age, they they don't really even get wrinkles until after maybe 55.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 60.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my grandmother has really nice skin.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: My aunt, my yeah, my aunts, my uncles, like everybody are a little bit older.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they have a few little wrinkles here and there, but overall they have nice skin.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I have other concerns, right?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: I have hyperpigmentation, I have um I don't know, dullness issues.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think at one point you had said that skin that contains more melanin is thicker, like biologically thicker.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we may just need products that have a higher percentage of certain ingredients for it to even work.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, you know, I'm just going off of these studies that are I find on PubMed because you know, there's so blank areas in dermatology when it comes to melanin-rich skin.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I have even asked dermatologists, do we know everything about melanocytes?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_03: And they say no, you know what I mean?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because, yeah, melanocytes are a huge component of what's going on.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's what makes up our skin color.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: They're the ones that are contributing.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: So if we don't even know how they're working and their signaling is going on, how can we say that there's no huge difference between you know darker skin versus there?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: It has to be.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we already know that there's a difference in terms of like the you know, the susceptibility to developing like melanomas, other skin cancers in like lighter skinned people versus darker skin.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: So there has to be a huge difference.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just waiting for that science to come out at this point.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: And my understanding that it presents differently too, right?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: On darker skin.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all because dermatologists don't know what that, you know, what melanoma may look like on someone with a deeper skin tone.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's so true.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting that we have so much misinformation coming from companies and studies and even other, you know, celebrity uh dermatologists like Dennis Gross.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's no surprise that we have a lot of misinformation coming from content creators and influencers on social media because I feel like that just gets amplified to like a hundredth degree.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I'm guilty of it.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people are guilty of uh perpetuating misinformation because you just don't know any better.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how much unpaid research can you do to evaluate a product before you publish a review?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: And also, where are you gonna go to for your information?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: There's nothing available for us.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, yeah, you know, you and I can review a product till like you know the cows come home, but if there's no research about what these components or these ingredients are doing, I have no way of saying, yeah, is this scientifically working or not?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: I cannot tell you that because there's absolutely no data out there, and I don't see anyone pressing for it.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: The only thing I'm seeing, honestly, for heen, is like either people saying, get rid of skincare altogether, or you know, skincare works whether you believe it or not.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm seeing these days.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: There's a not a lot of people that are in the middle saying, Hey, um, why don't we just have more research going on in this area?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, why don't we do a little bit more trials and you know, really look into what's going on with these products?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: Are they providing any kind of aid?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because you know, it dermatologists dermatologists are very quick to dismiss, right?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: They're just not to say, no, it's absolutely not working, versus consumer.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: I do notice something, you know, like I don't know what it is, but I do notice something.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm really curious, you know, from my even from just a normal, like just a consumer standpoint, like what really something is happening.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't know what, you know.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, because I definitely feel a difference when I use some products and or stop use of some products and begin use of other products.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there are subtle changes in your skin.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think not everyone will notice, like, I don't think my husband will notice the difference, but you look at yourself every day, and I feel like you know, women are hypercritical about every little mark on their face.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: So when you have magnifying mirrors, you know, you just over examine your skin and are um you know very in tune to figure out what is working or or at least what helps, even if it is a placebo effect, like something's happening where I feel like, okay, I you know, I spent my money better on this product.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: I can tell you that there's a lot of things that are not placebo effect, too.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's a lot, I think there is a lot of placebo for sure, but I can tell you there's this one mask.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, this is kind of off topic, but I'm just gonna throw it.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: There's this one mask by Biosons, and it's a glycolic acid mask.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I I kid you not, I bought this for my blackhead problem on my nose, and that it actually works.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like it works really well.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: I is that the the scrubby one?
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's the one that's grainy.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, that one is really good.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it works really well, and I was like, you know, I love this product, I can see the difference.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, my nose doesn't have those blackhead problems when I use it.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I think that definitely is a great product, but then again, like once again, you can only rely on yourself, you know what I mean?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like, again, it's that self-reporting aspect coming in.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know, you know, it's not any better in terms of studies, but it works for me.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess the next question is, you know, we're putting this information out there, but if we don't at least provide some framework for a solution, I think we would not have accomplished um our goal in this episode.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of put together an outline of this framework on how to evaluate where the information is coming from, essentially the source of the information.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on this.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the first thing you have to evaluate is the credentials of the person who's providing you that information.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: So are they just, you know, a regular consumer, a skincare enthusiast, or quote unquote, I hate this term, skin fluencer.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um are they an aesthetician, uh, primary care family med physician?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: Are they a dermatologist?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: And even going further, you know, is that information coming from somebody who's a highly specialized dermatologist?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a a a range of you know, least reliable to more reliable.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: I cut and each one of those people has biases.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Never forget that.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like I feel like even with dermatologists, you will always come.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's if it's a human, there's a bias attached.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: Always know that.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's just comes with a territory.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, completely agree.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so I guess the next thing would be the product in question.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: What is the purpose?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it treating a condition, a skin condition, or generally supporting skin health?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: That's really good.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: I really like that because I think people don't understand the difference between skin health and just things that you want to change.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like really, it's kind of like really that now.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: This one I think is so important because it really heavily relies on someone being a an educated and vigilant consumer.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, you really have to figure out what am I really doing to my skin.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this is this is where like that deep dive comes in where you have to really go into what is this product?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: Why do I why do I need it?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, why do I think I need it?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like, which which kind of feeds back to that first of like, where did I even get the idea to get it from?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Come from here.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes, because you're getting the information from some someone, somebody, right?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then I guess lastly, how will it help me?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and this is something I especially struggle with because you know, you and I, we get like a range of products, and then or companies will want to send me product for a skin condition I don't have.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the one thing we really have to ask ourselves is there is a trending product, there's a new release, and it has all of these claims, but I feel like most people, you know, they just buy it because it's new, they don't really properly evaluate whether that's even going to help them.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do they even have a skin condition to where that product is going to help?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: And all the people that you think are reporting about this product, do they even have that skin condition?
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like, for example, like there's this entire um society for eczema.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: But like, you know what I mean?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like, for example, like I know Tatcha has this cream.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: I absolutely love this cream, by the way.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's like their indigo cream.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's my favorite moisturizer by Tatcha.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I know this is like approved by like the eczema society or something like that.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, in in a the medical, I don't even know what their criteria are, to be very frank, um, about how they approve products.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: But the thing is, like, you know, when you're buying a product, especially a treatment product, um, are you making sure that the person you're getting the suggestion from even has your problem?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because half the time, I promise you, like that cream I just told you about, I don't have eczema and I use that cream and I love it.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I can go on to Instagram and be like, hey, Tatcha's Integral Cream is freaking phenomenal.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: And the person will be like looking for eczema, you know, friendly products and come across that cream and they'd be like, Oh, this person said it was great, let me just go buy it.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like I will be the first to tell you I don't have eczema.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, you know, don't go off of my product recommendations for that specific skin concern.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um you know, but I think that's such a good point that you make because um there's there's no fine, there's no like you know, discrete line between skin health and just vanity issues anymore.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: There really needs to be because that misinformation that's getting dangerous.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: That gets you into a dangerous area, you know what I mean?
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like of skin reactions and stuff.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: I that's a really, really good point because eczema is a medical condition that you will have to, you know, but you treat more or less.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a whole spectrum, um, which can be really detrimental to somebody versus you know, lack of hydration or my skin feels a little bit dry.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's a different issue altogether.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess the next question would be what are your expectations about the product?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is where the marketing comes in, and that it provides people with unrealistic expectations.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because when they have these super high numbers in the 90s about people, uh, you know, high 90s or you know, 100% of people reporting that their skin feels replenished and nurtured.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what am I supposed to expect from that?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and honestly, I'm not gonna lie, I have fell um like fell into that trap so often on Sephora's website, like the whole like 98%.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, exactly.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't understand what it means to have smoother skin.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: What do you mean by that?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's such a subjective thing.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know what you mean by you know, like, for example, portion, I mean reduce pore size.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: That might not be a good thing for certain people, you know.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's again, it's like what you people need to understand there's no such thing as perfect skin, and there's never going to be, and there's there's no such thing as a standard of perfection.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this is I really feel like it's at the root of so many marketing tactics because uh women hate admitting to the idea that there's no such thing as perfection, you know what I mean?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like we look at things and I think that it's like kind of like a brainwashing that's been happening for so many years that you know, actually, there is an idea of perfection, and I want to attain it, and I know that if I'm not saying it's gonna help me, but it's not gonna work for you the same way it did for person X, Y, and Z.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: So that that whole managing expectations aspect, I think that's a very I think that's a great point.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's very like a personal issue.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you're somebody who's hyper-critical of yourself, you need to recognize that you are hyper-critical of yourself, you know.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think a lot of people also expect miracles from products when really the issue that they're facing can only really be fixed with a medical procedure.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so that is I mean, deep wrinkles, like okay, we could fix it to a certain extent, but you're not gonna get smooth skin without a little bit of Botox and whatever else.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't know if the person who is recommending that product has had those supplementary skin procedures done on top of which they're using these products.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: That's a huge that is such a great point.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, yes.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Because I mean, I can almost certainly guarantee that the models, the spokespeople that are standing behind some of these lines have the money to go to a plastic surgeon and get all this stuff done.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, you cannot look at them and be like, oh my gosh, look at her skin.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's so beautiful at the age of 50.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, honey, it's beautiful, but she's also got you know half a million dollars stowed away for surgical procedures on her face.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it's like a different you it's not a one product cures all, and I think like you know it's almost like we know that, but we still want to believe it's not true.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: With that Fenty skin launch, right?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because Rihanna has beautiful freaking skin, but guess what?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: She has had procedures done.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and doctor's office procedures, like serious plastic surgery, but you know what I mean?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's it's all in the bracket of plastic surgery after a certain point.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: Women need to understand that.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there's a lot of people who come out here with like, oh well, this is laser laser therapy and blah blah blah.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, honey, it all falls into plastic surgery because at the end of the day, this is a professional doing this on your face, you know what I mean?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_03: You're altering the map of your face in some way, and whenever that's occurring, that's no longer a c it's not no longer just you know, topical or cosmetic, it's like a serious thing.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, I agree.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Kim Kardashian is really guilty of this.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: She always says, Oh, I've never been under the knife, but she's had procedures done.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: She is the worst person to say that.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_03: Can I just put that out there?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I do not I don't even know how she had the gall to say that.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think she said it in some interview, but that that's the expectation, right?
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't count as plastic surgery unless someone is cutting you open, but that's not true.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: No, that is not true at all.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's so yeah, like, and you're right, you know what I mean?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there are so many plastic surgeons that I know that you know they do a lot of procedures that are just for, for example, acne, um, like getting rid of acne using certain uh wavelengths of life, light, and stuff, but it's all under their plastic surgery practice.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: So there's an incredible amount of stuff that can be done with plastic surgery.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't always have to be a knife being used, you don't always have to be under the, you know, like an anesthesia or whatever.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I agree.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: Hello?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Did I lose you?
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: So the next thing is is the strength of the active ingredient right for my skin?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:54
  unknown: Yeah.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: So how do we evaluate that?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think it's really important because this is so good.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like I feel like this is so important because Right.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's companies are starting to publish percentages of their active ingredient, but I don't know.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that mean?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean jack shit, excuse me, but it really doesn't.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, honestly, when you okay, so this is so good.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: I really believe in dosing, right?
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: So as a medical professional, I believe that you should absolutely be looking at doses with any kind of treatment on your body, in your body, whatever.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_03: And now that they're coming out of percentages, that doesn't mean anything to me because at the end of the day, it still is not controlling for how much of something someone's putting on their face.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: So if you have a two percent um something, something retinoid derivative product, right?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: And one person is putting a very thin layer on versus another person is putting a huge thick layer of that shit on, you have no way of controlling that.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_03: You can't measure that.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: You can't, you know, you can't even rely on the results because like the own, like, you know, self-reporting results because you have no way of knowing how much of this they used.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um that, and I know that's huge, it's huge for sunscreen.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: I know it's huge for you know, any kind of peels, like people who do peels constantly, you know what I mean?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like they're constantly, I don't know, like uh exfoliating their skin.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: Their skin is gonna look different than someone who does it once a week, you know.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, yeah, I think dosing is so so so important.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, there's no way of doing it in skincare.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: You cannot dose in skincare unless it's like individualized, and that's unfortunately not the case right now.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: So but can you even dose with the products you get at the dermatologist?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't ever think anyone's ever told me how much uh you know, freaking went different back when it was a prescription.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: I remember it being prescribed to me.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: The dermatologist didn't tell me, oh, put this much on, she just gave it to me, you know what I mean?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think I mean that's a great point, but no, you really can't because you're just looking at the molar uh ratio of something, you know what I mean, suspended in a in a in a cream or an ointment or something.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: You're not looking at the like like the exact amount that's being put on your skin versus like an any other kind of medication which I'm going to when I'm dosing something that I put into your bloodstream, that's that's taking into your account your body weight, it's taking into account like all of these different measurements, which is not the case with dermatology.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, I agree with you.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that even that is a good representation of quote unquote, you know, measuring or dosing your products.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's just telling you this much is in this a whole vial, you know.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: So my next question is we're seeing a lot of products, skincare tools that are coming out that are uh the home version of procedures that you can get at the dermatologist.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: So my gosh.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing the derma rollers, the microneedling derma rollers, the face uh skin light therapy masks, um yeah, bunch of other things like that.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and the micro needling kits and stuff.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: And yep, mm-hmm.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of stuff.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think about that?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like we're kind of relying on, hey, oh, this is a clinical procedure, but oh, I can do this at home.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a very slippery slope, if I'm being very honest.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think with certain things, so let's let me just start with derma rollers because I think that whole thing now you want to talk about placebo.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: This I think is the biggest gimmick and and marketing issue with you know, that's come out recently.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, dermal rollers, for example, they're telling you that you're increasing your lymph movement, right?
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: And your like neck and face area, so you're like promoting lymph drainage and whatnot.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, cool, got it.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: But like that's fine.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: You can do that at home if you really think it's making a difference.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: I promise you that quartz or whatever is on there is probably not doing anything.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't think it matters what kind of stone it is.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, okay, there's that, you know, there's that end.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then we have the other end, which is like home peels, microneedling, home procedure.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_03: These are this is where I say uh slippery slope because I think if you have an extremely potent peel or a microneedling kit that is not controlled in terms of like, you know, the environment you're doing it, you don't have a sterile environment that you know in which you're performing these procedures.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: You're not um controlling for all these external factors that are usually controlled for in a dermatologist's office or a plastic surgeon's office.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: You're really prone to infections and hurting yourself.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: So you it's like you know, it's like the guy that came out, you know, when we were younger.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: Remember the one surgeon he did surgery on himself?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's kind of that's what I think of when I think of these products.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like you're essentially doing microsurgery on yourself, and that's not safe no matter how you look at it.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because the biggest things are in this um infection, and a lot of times I think people don't understand that we can have infection and not have a fever and not have signs and symptoms.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: It'll be this chronic infection that you carry around that you've had for a while and not even know you had it until it becomes a huge skin concern.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm totally against them.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even gonna lie to you.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: I am a hundred percent against like especially invasive, anything that's poking my skin, I would much rather put that in the hands of a professional.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know what I mean?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there's no way I'm gonna do that at home.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: No way, yeah.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've definitely been guilty of using the microneedling tool because it was so trendy, I think, at one point that I just couldn't resist uh trying it.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I I didn't like it, so I stopped.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: I I didn't even do it consistently to get any type of you know, negative or positive effect.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's essentially a good thing because you know I probably didn't sanitize it as well as I should have.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I didn't have the high enough alcohol content, you know what I mean?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many other factors, like you said.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm glad that I I again I was testing something that you didn't really come to fruition into the city.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, there's a difference between like you testing it, going into it with like I feel like overall you're a very like intelligent human being.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: So like I feel like you doing something, and I'm not knocking anybody, I'm just saying, like you know, certain level of intelligence needs to come into play and common sense needs to come into play too, right?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like with people, it's like you know, like yeah, okay, you might have tried it, but you're not gonna be like the person who goes and puts a dirty derma roller thing on your face, you know what I mean?
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like whatever with the micro like people do that, you know what I mean?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's like the same idea as like needle sharing or something.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I look at it like, you know what I mean?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you're doing these things that are just not sanitary, and you don't even realize the complications that can occur.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like I get it, like you know, there's gonna be a lot of hype and there's gonna be a lot of trends, but I think if anything, the companies that need to get sued are those companies because you are putting essentially a surgical kit in someone's hand and saying, go for it happens, you know what I mean?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: So true.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so true.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what about these light therapy masks that we're seeing?
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, you know, that is such an interesting product because I don't know exactly how it works.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I know that there's some um there's a lot of value to like phototherapy um in terms of like dermatologists doing it.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like they have these special lace devices and stuff that really do help with like um, like for example, eradicating bacteria, you know, that cause acne.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, certain certain skin ailments they can really um like kind of use this with and it works, but at home stuff, I don't know because I don't once again the research isn't there.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_03: And second of all, I don't think that the frequency of the the exposure is gonna be high enough in these at-home products versus a dermatologist's office, which is a very high-powered machine that's like multi-million dollars, you know what I mean?
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right, exactly, exactly.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I've I've always wondered because you know I've had laser hair removal done, and when I got it done professionally, I mean, I had to wear eye protection.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they did they cleaned my face.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was a different level, right?
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then I I bought several kind of home kits with very limited results.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I mean it it it works for a little while, but the hair comes back.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so kind of going back, I'd rather much rather just go to the dermatologist and get consistent results rather than spend money messing around with it at home.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: Another thing that concerns me about those, like the at-home um light therapy kits, is like burns.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I would be scared of burning my skin.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, honestly, like these are like you we never know, like everybody's skin is different, right?
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, who's if you're sensitive, you've been using a lot of peels or something, and you put this on your face, and then you get burns, that's gonna be very hard to fix, you know what I mean?
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, just uh once again, like taking anything that has even a remote chance of being invasive into your own hands.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just not for that.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like you know, no matter how much the hype, no matter how many there, how many reviews there are, I would just never feel comfortable because again, like the machines that are available in a doctor's office are extremely yeah, yeah, so sophisticated.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they take up like a room, they yes, they take up like half a room, yeah.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the one on the on Dr.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: Dennis Gross's website is four hundred and thirty-five dollars.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, wow, yeah.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: That yes, save your money, honestly.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_03: Save your money.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: You should just go get a dermatology treatment.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: Go to the dermatologist.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like why wouldn't you just go?
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_03: You can get one therapy done for probably like half that price.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, half that price, exactly, and probably have better results.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's crazy.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_03: And what is it?
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_03: It just claims to like do it's like the red and blue different lights, right?
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yep, the red and blue lights.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's claims to smooth and firm the face, face lines and wrinkles, even skin tone and texture, reduce appearance of sunspots, age spots and discoloration, clear mild to moderate acne.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, everything.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: It does everything.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_03: I would be really curious about our listeners if any of you have tried this, because I personally cannot even tell you because I haven't had a personal experience.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_03: If any of you out there have done this and it's worked for you, please let us know, even if it hasn't worked for you.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm this is I'm really curious about this one.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_03: Really.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I just I haven't heard a lot about it.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't either.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just curious.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's all I have.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're right at the hour mark.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: That went by so fast.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, yes, this was fun.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think we covered a lot of really good information.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm really excited to see what uh our next episode, which will be on cultural appropriation and western skincare and a kind of couple of other topics that relate to our cultural background.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited about that.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: So if if we have any listeners who have any specific questions or want us to address any specific topics about that, uh leave us a comment on our Instagram post about our second episode, and we will make sure to cover it in the next episode.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk to you guys next time.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to you later.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 1:02:38
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