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TikTok Secrets for Authors with Shelby Leigh · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider starter kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: As human beings, we've learned to live with certain questions we know may never quite be answered during our lifetimes.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Questions such as, how big is the universe?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is there really a Loch Ness monster?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or even, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Here's another question that continues to vex countless writers.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: How in the world do you use TikTok as an author?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm being a little facetious, of course, but the fact remains that a lot of authors want to make use of this social media platform that has exploded in popularity the last few years, but we don't know where to start or what to do.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my guest today is Shelby Lee, a mental health poet and self-love advocate who's been sharing her work online for seven plus years, amassing a following of more than 450,000 readers.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: She's the author of the best-selling book of poetry, Changing with the Tides.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to writing poetry, Shelby hosts an online poetry community with monthly workshops and helps other writers confidently market their books.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: She's also the host of the Small Steps to Self-Love podcast.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can find her on Instagram and TikTok at Shelby Lee Poetry, and that's Shelby, L-E-I-G-H Poetry.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: I first came across Shelby when a friend of mine posted a link to her book talk blueprint guide on Facebook.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I purchased it and I thought it was extremely helpful, so as a result, I wanted to invite Shelby here onto the Daily Writer Podcast to share her expertise with you.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: In this interview, you'll learn why you should use TikTok, how to gain followers there, how to make videos, how to convert those followers into readers who buy books and lots, lots more.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: This was basically my opportunity to ask Shelby all my burning questions about TikTok.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a list of like 10 or 15 things that we started out the interview with, and I think I actually hit most of my questions.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: This was an incredibly fun and helpful conversation.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have felt intimidated by TikTok or you've got on TikTok and watch videos and you thought, I have no idea what's happening here, this conversation is going to help take a lot of that mystery out of that.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's going to help you become a lot more comfortable with finally posting your own videos on TikTok.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've been dipping my toe into those waters a little bit and making a few videos here and there.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this conversation, as well as Shelby's amazing book talk blueprint guide, has been extraordinarily helpful.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you enjoyed my conversation with the amazing and talented Shelby Lee.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Shelby, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to talk with you and dig into this whole mysterious area of TikTok that so many authors are intimidated by.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for making time to chat with me.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to be here and chat about TikTok.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: It is my favorite.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: So always happy to talk about it.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you do a great job on there.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm relatively new to TikTok.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've been on social media a long time, but but TikTok has been something that's kind of intimidated me for a long time.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really thankful for your guide that I actually came across on Facebook.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: One of my author friends was promoting it.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I forget who.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could remember so I could give him a shout-out.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I saw it and I was like, that is exactly the resource that I'm looking for.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you putting that together.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of how we connected, is just through all that.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess the first question I want to throw out there is uh let's just kind of start at the very, very basic level of this.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why should authors pay attention to TikTok as opposed to focusing on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, other kinds of things?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: What is it about TikTok that makes it so important or unique?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a good question.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: So the TikTok out algorithm right now is pushing just so much organic growth that we're not seeing on other platforms.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is like Instagram 10 years ago, where good point.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, before they started pushing ads, same thing happened to Facebook.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so it does kind of eventually happen on these platforms.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so right now is like the key time to be joining TikTok to get in on that organic growth because you don't have to spend a dime to get in front of thousands of faces and get in front of new readers.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that is why I push it a lot.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: It is definitely intimidating for anyone, authors, anyone that's trying to promote anything and grow their audience to, you know, learn a new platform.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely overwhelming and intimidating.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think diving in is so important for really any author right now.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen authors be successful no matter what genre you write.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I believe that there is an audience for you on there.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's over a billion users now.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it is definitely not a platform that you want to skip out on.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you say to people who they get on TikTok and so I'm pretending I'm like somebody my age who is brand new to it.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, Well, I get on TikTok and all I see is crazy dancing videos or people doing recipes or whatever.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be on video.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you say to people who just have this resistance to doing video or to being involved on TikTok, which they perceive as something that, oh, just all the crazy kids are doing that kind of thing?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sort of putting on my like grumpy old man persona for a second because a lot of authors are introverts and they feel intimidated by the video stuff and by what they feel like it's just the kids are doing this and and whatnot.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: How do you respond to that kind of thing?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So videos not going away.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's the number one thing I can do.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that's the main thing.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Video's not going away.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm an introvert too.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I would have never believed you if you told me a few years ago that I would be getting on video and talking to this many thousands of people on social media and all of that.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's something that we really just have to adapt to and realize that it's not going away.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you can also be successful on TikTok without showing your face.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look at my page, I rarely show my face on my TikTok and I have 400,000 followers there.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't believe that you have to go about showing your face.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend that for other platforms like Instagram, which is really about community building and connection.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas TikTok, there are definitely ways to promote your book without getting on video.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think that that should deter anybody from getting on the platform.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I'd say about the algorithm, like you mentioned, whenever you first join, it's like dancing and it's kind of strange.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't like it either.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: But once the algorithm gets to know you, it is so powerful.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Once it understands what you are interested in, which is going to be books and other writers, it will deliver that content to you.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So whenever you first join TikTok, you want to look up other writers and what they're doing, look at readers and your genre.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can search.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: These are really powerful search engines on TikTok and search for your genre, look at other readers that are already reading your genre and enjoying your genre.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Look at what they're posting, follow readers that you like, follow other writers that you like and engage with their posts.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll see over time your main feed will start to be more tailored to what you enjoy.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that also helps your content be pushed out to people who will enjoy your content.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: It knows that you like reading, you like writing, you like this certain genre.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So they're going to show your videos to people who enjoy that as well.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So is it important to not be posting a bunch of a bunch of different kinds of things?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if I want to be successful as an author on TikTok, I shouldn't be posting a lot of stuff about, oh, here we made this random recipe, or hey, here's me at the park, or here's me.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I've got better callsol, pull it up on Netflix right here.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was watching that last night.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't be posting about my opinions or movie reviews.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is that kind of the thing where you should really kind of stay within your lane to be successful with this?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: I definitely think you need to have a focused niche sticking to your genre or just books in general.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: There are authors that are sharing like book reviews that are in their niche, but that's still, of course, very focused on the book world.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you can definitely do that.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I do recommend staying very focused.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: If your goal is to grow your audience as an author and promote your books as an author, you should be very focused on what your readers want to hear from you, which is going to be book-related content.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, perfect.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, if you do those things and you create content consistently, you will just you'll grow your followers organically.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you know, you need to be focused on what your readers want to hear.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: So looking at what's trending with your readers of your genre, what they're posting about, to kind of get a sense of the type of messaging that they like to hear, the type of videos that they like to hear, because there's so many different types of videos that you can create.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but focusing on that will definitely help you grow faster.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I recommend is just once you have tried and you've experimented with a few different types of videos.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And by that I mean like talking videos, like getting on video and talking about something informative or inspirational or whatever, or there's page slip videos where people are showing their books, slipping through the pages, um, adding quotes, text overlaid on top of that video as like a hook.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a few different types of videos that are popular, but once you find out what is working for you, stick to that and repeat it.
• 9:24
  unknown: Okay.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where you'll see the most growth.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Now I do want to ask something um before I forget about it.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: So right before we hopped on Zoom here, I got on Amazon and I knew that you're I know you've got several books out.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh let me go back here real quick so I don't misquote the uh the title of it.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, where did it go?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: This tab went away.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, sorry.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, my computer's just I can't find the book.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um Changing with the Tides.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Changing with the Tides, thank you.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow you knew that that's what I was gonna say.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: I I knew it was tides, but I was like, I I want to make sure I have the right title.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: So now did that that book is several years old.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: That is correct.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: I originally self-published it in 2019.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so did did TikTok have anything to do with the success of the book?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because I noticed you have well over 2,000 reviews on Amazon, which is phenomenal.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations, by the way.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely amazing and phenomenal.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a connection between those two things, or did the success and growth of that book happen kind of before you got involved on TikTok?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, it is definitely from TikTok.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: I would say like 75%.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give TikTok 75% of the credit.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I joined in 2020, early 2020, and that is when I saw my sales skyrocket toward the end of 2020 was a big spike.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then again this year, early this year, um, which led to it helping it be republished in July of this year.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is cool.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So basically that led to uh is it Simon and Schuster that it's through?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, they're in print.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So how did that happen?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh let me take a little side road here because I'm a ghostwriter.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm into all the book world and the publishing stuff.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very interested in all that.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: How did that happen that then you had a self-published book and then you got to deal with a traditional publisher?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Did they approach you or did you approach them, or how did that happen?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: They did approach me.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um I have been working with an agent for a few years.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um when they saw the sales were doing really well and saw, you know, my platform and that I was able to market it, they were interested in in republishing a new edition of the book.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 11:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just I really, really love that that it is a book of poetry that has done so well.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like poetry just it's not getting the attention that it deserves.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so glad that I know this sounds kind of cheesy and sorry about that.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you're sort of in a way carrying the torch for poetry.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I again I know that sounds kind of corny, but it is like it just makes my heart so happy that that we have a poet, and I'm sure I know there's a lot of poets that are doing well, but yeah, that you're really bringing some great attention to this specific genre of writing because you know, the business nonfiction gets a lot of attention, memoir gets a lot of attention, celebrity bios and all kinds of other stuff.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I just think this is really, really cool and it's really exciting.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm thank you.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that you're that you've put in the work and have had tremendous success with this.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just think it's really, really cool.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there are definitely many poets on TikTok that are doing amazing as well.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I it's it does warm my heart too to just see that people are really resonating with the poetry and buying it and supporting this genre because it is growing for sure.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think TikTok is a lot to think to that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just social media as a whole um is really helping to grow as a genre.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes me very happy.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you've actually reignited my interest in doing a book of poetry, honestly.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have single-handedly done this.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've thought about it for years, and I just thought, well, I've got all these other books I want to write, and I've I'm a ghostwriter, so I've got that side of my business.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just looking through your book, I thought, man, this is really inspiring me to get back to this.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Something that I loved when I was younger.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really cool.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love hearing that, and that's awesome.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So let me dive into kind of some specifics here with.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say somebody has set up their TikTok profile, they're doing all the things that you've mentioned.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you cover all this in your guide, which we'll get to as well.
• 13:30
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are some basic tips that you could share with somebody about what types of content that writers should be creating on TikTok?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I would start again with what I kind of mentioned about looking at readers in your genre, the people that are already posting about the types of books that you write to learn what kind of content they enjoy.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I would say sticking to content that, again, there's no guarantees on anything going viral or anything like that.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: But the content that does go viral is in a few different categories: inspirational, educational, engaging.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so whenever we think about the type of content we're creating, we want to kind of fit into those buckets in some way.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I recommend a lot of so for poetry, of course, a lot of my work is going to be inspirational.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to kind of have that already there.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: But is there a way that if you have a fiction book that your character can inspire, um, there's a story that you can tell to your readers on TikTok or to your viewers on TikTok that is educational, that could be widely shared with people.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: You want to think about the type of content that would be saved by someone to come back to.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that might be something that's inspirational, that might be something that's educational or share with a friend as something entertaining, something funny.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why trends are really popular on TikTok.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I recommend following some trends, but if you can't make it work for you, don't try to like make it work for you.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, definitely sounds are a big thing on TikTok.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: So making sure that you're picking sounds that your readers will enjoy.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I always tell like poets don't be using these random trendy sounds that are like rock music or whatever, like be poets like the calming and the relaxing, the instrumental, you know, things like that.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that applies to if you write thriller books, you know, you probably won't be using super casual music like poets are using, you know, you'll want something exciting and fast-paced.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: So all of this kind of fits together, and it's really about knowing who your readers are.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that research in the beginning of your TikTok account is so important, looking at what other readers are sharing and what they're resonating with.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can see, you know, if you search your genre, there's I'm sure very popular videos of readers talking about books that they're reviewing or whatever it may be, and kind of getting a sense of what content is doing really well to sell those books will really help guide the content that you create.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a sense in which you have to kind of think about the the type of persona that you want to craft on TikTok.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, for example, you're probably not gonna have uh loud rock music behind your videos because that that totally contrasts with the type of calming, poetic persona that you have worked really hard to craft.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is that is that a fair way to say that?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I always say, like, whenever someone sees a video of mine, I want them to know like that is a Shelby video.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what anyone's trying to create, a brand, or and as an author, we are our own brand, we're our personal brand.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: We are a business.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that any author should be trying to create that same sense too.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I think it's really important with TikTok, especially to repeat what is working, to have a style to be consistent with your covers of your videos so you can add text to your covers and be using the same style every single time.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that when someone sees your video, they know that is a Kent video, that is a Shelby video.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: What happens if you write in different genres?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: For example, let me throw this out there.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um as a ghostwriter, sometimes my name is on client books, sometimes it's not.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got a book coming out next month with Harper Collins.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's a book I wrote with Elvis Presley's stepbrother.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the faith of Elvis.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's pretty much a musical kind of thing.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh next year I'll have a book coming out that I wrote for my son, uh, a book about just persisting through challenges.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: I also have we'll have a book coming out next year that's called The Daily Writer.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a year's worth of daily meditations for writers.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: So all those are kind of in different genres.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: People who are doing books that are in kind of different genres, how can we maintain a consistent feel and approach and persona if those books are are really not in the same type of genre?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: So the one answer I would say that I've worked with authors on who are in multiple genres, maybe only a couple, and they end up doing separate accounts.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of times they'll write under like a different pen name.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so they will create two, maybe even three accounts.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be a lot to have to maintain that many different accounts.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think, you know, if you are doing multiple genres on one platform, it would be a little tricky to make it all seem kind of the same look and feel while appealing to very many different types of readers.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I will say the one benefit with TikTok is that new readers or new people are shown your videos every single time.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't really run the risk as much of um, I don't know, just kind of deterring people because they're kind of confused on who your reader is.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very important to be focused.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: But if it is someone like your experience, I think it's really interesting at the same time to share how many different books you are involved with.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't really see that as a negative thing.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you would just have to, again, really know your readers for each one and be specific whenever you start the video.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you can do like a text hook or a voiceover hook where you're talking to your reader specifically so that they know whenever they get to your video, like this is for me.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm the right reader for this sort of thing.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that would help in that case.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: But it can definitely be tricky when you're balancing a few different genres and a few different audiences.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: That does make a lot of sense.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my account is called the Daily Writer, which is what this podcast is, what my membership community is.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like I would really be best served by focusing on the things for writers, because that's literally what my account is called on there.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um obviously mention other books and and whatnot, but I've I will have a lot of stuff coming out specifically for writers.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like that would be the best approach, is really to focus on those things.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, mention the other things because as a writing teacher, you don't want to be one of those writing teachers who just write stuff about writing, you know, because that's that's always kind of weird.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, do they actually write any other stuff besides writing books?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's so true.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I I did the same thing.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I created a second account to promote like book marketing stuff because I love teaching marketing to authors.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I knew, you know, if I stayed on this main platform, all these people that are reading my mental health quotes and my inspirational quotes are gonna be like, what the heck is this?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it definitely can be beneficial to have a separate audience and separate platform at that point.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I will definitely consider that.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with one and getting that one going.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: But as soon as I do, I'm probably gonna start a second one.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's talk about for a second, if we can, consistency and how often we should be making videos.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's probably not a totally clear answer for this.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not the same answer for everybody, but in general, once we get active on TikTok, um, how often should we be making videos?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is there kind of a general rule to follow?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I see so many people join, they post five a day for like a week and they don't see the traction and then they quit or they start posting way less because they're not seeing the results that they want.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: It does take time to see those results from being consistent, but I try to say at least once a day.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not someone who posts five five times a day.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of TikTok marketers will tell you that's what you should be doing.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've always only posted once a day, maybe twice a day, and been fine.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that when it comes to any social media platform, quantity is not as important as the quality of the video and making good, engaging content.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are able to make a good video once a day and keep up with that consistently, that is most important.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you're able to do more than that and you enjoy doing more than that three, five times a day and you can keep up with that, then go for it.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would say like every other day, even is fine, but less than that, especially in the beginning when we're trying to build some traction and get that initial thousand followers.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: We can have the bio, the link in our bio and all of that.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just trying to be consistent is what's most important.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you you mentioned you got active on TikTok in the fall of 2020.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: It was like early, I think like February or March of 2020.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you've been doing this at this point.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Two and a half years really consistently, correct?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a point at which um so I've something I've noticed with my podcast is so I've been podcasting a long time, and the longer that I do it, the faster the growth is.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is that true with TikTok as well, where it's kind of like a bell curve where you're consistent for a while and you don't probably really see a ton of growth, and then all of a sudden it just starts to do that that tick upward the more consistent that you do it?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is that generally the case?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but with exceptions of kind of low periods.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's been a lot of other writers or just larger creators on TikTok, TikTok that I've talked to about this, and we've all experienced like the ebbs and flows of the algorithm.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um, this is why I never tell I tell writers to never give up because there are writers that will get, you know, a lot of views in the beginning and then they'll kind of start getting discouraged because they'll get like a few hundred views and they have like 500 followers.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I have 400K, and there are times where I barely get like a thousand views, and it's just a low period and it's kind of stinks, and you have to push through it.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there has been consistent growth for sure, but there have been some months where I've been like on the verge of just I don't want to do this anymore.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: My views aren't good, and then it always comes back.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: So anytime that I am like on the verge of that and just feeling super discouraged, it always comes back.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that is a huge recommendation to not give up, to keep being consistent.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Two and a half years in, I'm so glad that I never, you know, quit because I feel like my whole life changed because of TikTok, pretty much.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, being consistent and just not letting those low views get you down.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Looking at what's working for other people helps, but really just making content that you're proud of that you feel is engaging and is targeting your audience, and you'll see it come back up.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I want to ask two more things, and then I'd I'd love for you to share about your TikTok guide, which is such a wonderful resource.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the first thing I want to ask about is how do we convert followers and viewers into people who actually buy our books?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is there kind of a certain system that you have or certain things that we should have on our bio or links that would really enable that to happen more?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that it can be a really missed opportunity when we're promoting our book, but we're not being super clear about what our book is and where it can be bought.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think making it as easy as possible for our readers to know, like, A, this is a book, because some videos on TikTok where we're doing page flips or we're doing like a storytelling, people don't always understand like we're actually promoting a book.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: So being very clear that it's a book.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then sharing where you can get it.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I've done some tests myself, and I mentioned this in the guide too, where I had a video that goes viral and I would put the name of the book, but I didn't put where to buy it.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I would like look at my rating the couple of days later when normally it would be really great and it had like barely budged.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I added the name of the book or added where to get it.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I just said like available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble and immediately spike, like in the top 1,000 books because my video was doing well.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So being extremely clear about what the book is, about the fact that you're selling a book, and that means again in the video, in the caption, in the comments, you can pin a comment so that your comment is at the very top.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a video that does well and there's like dozens of comments or hundreds of comments, yours is there at the top and it says exactly what the name of the book is and where to get it.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that is so helpful for conversions.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, further than that, for the people that want to go through your profile to find the book, um, it should be very easy.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a thousand followers, you can have a link in your bio.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have a thousand followers, put the name of the book that you're promoting in there.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a call to action, find my book on Amazon and the name of the book.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can also link to your Instagram through TikTok.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that way you'll have your Instagram link there.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: People can find the link through there.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a few different avenues you can take to make sure that it's very, very clear what the name of your book is, where to buy it, and all of that will help convert to buyers.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, that's really, really good.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: See, I would just kind of think, isn't it obvious everybody should just go to Amazon?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what I would think.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I also I'm on Amazon every day.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in this work world every day.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: You are too.
• 26:17
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: But and I know that if people are not in that world all the time, it's probably not obvious.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we're to go to get something.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's really, really helpful.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I have people ask me every day, even though my name of the book is in the video itself, the cover of the book's there, it's in the comments, it's in the caption, and they'll also get questions.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Where what is this book?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Where do I get it?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you just have to be so clear and just make it very easy.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a product we're selling to a customer.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So customer experience is everything, and making sure that it's easy for them is really important.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: That really makes a lot of sense.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, is there an element to it also where a lot of times people are flipping through TikTok and they're sort of half paying attention?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're watching TV or they're sitting at the DMV or doing whatever.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: So having those links and that book title in a bunch of different places really it's to our benefit because that's probably gonna mean more sales and conversions and so forth.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what about re uh repurposing content?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if we make videos on TikTok, should we also be posting those on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, other places, or should we just keep those native to TikTok?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I do recommend repurposing.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't go for the, you know, take the finished video in TikTok and repost it exactly as it is on all those platforms.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people do recommend that.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you can always test it out and see if it's working for you.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have found with myself and other writers that I've worked with that it's not as effective.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: They uh each platform likes us to use their native features.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Instagram wants us to add music within their app.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: TikTok wants us to add text and music within their app.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: So whenever we're taking a video from TikTok directly and uploading it to Instagram or YouTube or whatever, it tends to not perform as well.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I do recommend it's a little bit extra work, but I do recommend recording the video from your phone app, unless you're using a feature in TikTok, like there's different filters and things.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're uh recording like a normal video and your phone, that you save it through your phone and then you would add the text directly in Instagram or add it directly in TikTok and as well as the song.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've just found that works better.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: And also different videos perform better.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: There are different algorithms, they're different platforms.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I hear a lot like, why is my video doing so well on Instagram and it's doing bad on TikTok?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same exact video.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's because they're different platforms.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I've experimented and found found what works for me.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And with Instagram, I am silent, I show my book, I add some music, and that's it.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas with TikTok, I add text, I add voiceover, people really like the voiceovers there.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I do almost completely different content on both platforms to have success.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: So while I do recommend repurposing, it can save a lot of time.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not working for you after a little while, definitely experiment with other types of content and see what will work best for you.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what about captions?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Should we should we add captions natively, or is it okay just to add the captions to the video and then upload it?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then it has the sometimes I see videos where it'll have it's obvious the person has added captions within an app, but then they will also have the captions native to that app.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So there will be it basically be two sets of captions.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the right approach with captions?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: So my take on this, especially with TikTok, is that any text you add in TikTok is searchable, which is really powerful for the search engine.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So so if you're adding text directly in TikTok, when people search for a keyword that is in that video using text, it will it will pull up.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely recommend that you add your captions, you add your text within the app natively for the best results.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that does sound like a lot of extra work because I mean you can do that on Instagram too.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: So is that the same thing on Instagram is the the text is searchable, I assume?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly am not 100% sure about that versus TikTok.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: But the nice thing with captions on Instagram and TikTok too is that with the click of a button, you can add, you know, the captions to the video.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, if you want to add additional text, that is a manual typing it in.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of actually adding captions for accessibility purposes or for people to be able to know what you're saying with the sound off or whatever it may be, it's a pretty easy click of a button.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's not a ton of manual work, but um adding adding music or adding additional text, of course, will take a little bit of time.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really glad I asked that because I thought the other way of doing it of just adding captions in a video app or something and then uploading that to all the platforms was better, but turns out it's not.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad I asked.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's definitely people who do that and um works for them.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I just, yeah, it's what I recommend is just to make sure we're utilizing the features that TikTok wants us to use to see the best results and as well as searchability.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So can you tell us about your TikTok guide?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know you don't sell this as a print product, but I've got my print copy in here because I printed it off.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the Book Talk Blueprint.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is a really, really great guide.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: What is it and how can people get a hold of this?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it is a 50-page step-by-step guide for writers and authors to learn how to kind of master the platform.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it got guides you through getting and creating your account, um, you know, what to put in your bio, through to actually creating content, how to optimize that content to see results.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's a few different pages of video ideas in there if you're stuck on video ideas or you need inspiration.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And this is all knowledge taken from um growing my audience to 400k, selling 40,000 dish books through TikTok alone.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I also my experience, I worked in social media marketing for five to six years before becoming a full-time writer.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: So this is all in the guide, and it's also not a stagnant guide.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: I update it and I email you.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you purchase the guide, you get an email whenever I make updates.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know that that's cool.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I try to update monthly or every couple of months whenever it, you know, there's a big update that needs to be shared.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like a one-time purchase, and then a year from now, TikTok changes and you're, you know, completely off, you know, base.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it's definitely updated.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm also adding some video content, more video content soon of actually like recording myself explaining everything about the guide.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's lots in there.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's lots in there.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's$23 and it's a lot of information.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you can buy it on my website, um, writers.shelbylee.co is the easiest way to find it.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I know that you're also a fellow member vault user.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're not here to promote member vault, but I that's what I use for my writing membership group, the Daily Writer Club.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: So and I love it.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: So should you ever decide to make a video course of this, I think this would be a phenomenal course to take if you're ever interested in doing that kind of a thing.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, definitely.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the guide is really, really wonderful.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate you taking time to put this together.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well worth every single penny you could charge many times that, and it would still be absolutely worth it.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's really good stuff.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Shelby, thanks for making time to do this conversation.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have learned a ton here, and you've really inspired me.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm 48 years old.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm creeping up on 50.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if a 48-year-old former college professor guy can get excited about TikTok, then there's hope for everybody else for sure.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you inspiring us and educating us and entertaining us and doing all the things with TikTok.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is wonderful.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate it.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope you took notes during that conversation.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly did.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I gotta be honest, when I'm doing these interviews, there are times and there are specific guests where I come with a whole list of questions because I want to know things from them.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I sort of almost look at this like a coaching session.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and this interview was really a case of I came with a bunch of questions and I wanted to see if Shelby can answer all these because I figured if you're listening, you're an you're probably a writer.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you're listening to this show, first of all, and second of all, you probably have questions about TikTok just like I did.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I took a bunch of notes and I'm so thankful that I had her on the show because as you can see, she's not only really, really smart, but she's just a kind and generous and just a super chill person to talk with.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I consider myself a pretty chill person, so I always love it when I get to have a good conversation with people who are just chill.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to encourage you to do two specific things.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you would do these two things for me, this would be fantastic.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Number one is I'm gonna really encourage you to buy her a book talk blueprint guide, which is a comprehensive step-by-step PDF to help writers and authors confidently get started and create content that sells books on TikTok.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's a link in the show notes for that.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to encourage you to go get that because it is honestly one of the most well laid out and well written and really well the one of the most well-designed guides of this kind that I have ever seen.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I don't remember what the price was, but it was less than$30.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: It is worth every single penny.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I told her if she were to charge$100 for this, it would be it would still be worth every penny because it's so well put together.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Second of all, I want to encourage you to get her book, Changing with the Tides.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know a lot of people don't think that they're fans of poetry.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: You may have read poetry in high school.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you felt like the teacher was forcing you to read, you know, Shakespeare or uh, you know, some of those poets from earlier times, and and maybe you think that poetry isn't something that you enjoy.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm pretty sure when Shelby put together this book that I was not really necessarily the target market for this book.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: She talks a lot about relationships and other kinds of themes in the book, so I'm pretty sure that I, you know, a middle-aged guy like myself was not necessarily the specific audience she probably had in mind when she was creating this book.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to tell you, I've really, really enjoyed her book, Changing with the Tides.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, and I don't remember if I mentioned this in the interview, but she has single-handedly reignited my interest in poetry.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that really takes some doing because I'm I'm very much a guy who likes memoir and nonfiction and some other things.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, to be honest with you, I haven't paid a lot of attention to poetry since uh my high school and college days, but she's really reignited my interest in in the art form of poetry.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to encourage you to grab this book.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really well done.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's a short book, it's a very, very easy read.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not suggesting that you should fly through a book of poetry and read it fast like you would a nonfiction book, but it's just really, really good stuff.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's very thought-provoking and very well done.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: And when you see Shelby's TikTok videos or you read her book, Changing with the Tides, or of course, as you've listened to this conversation, you know that she's a person with a lot of heart.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I like to support authors who bring a lot of heart into what they do.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I like to support authors who have a heart for helping other writers as well.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she definitely fits into that category.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: So make sure you grab that guide and check out her book.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that you enjoyed this conversation.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: I had an absolute blast doing it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, with all that said, I want to give a huge thank you to Shelby for taking time out of her busy schedule with making TikTok videos and writing and helping authors.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I want to thank her for taking time to have this conversation with me.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I also want to thank you for listening.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: As I often say on this show, there are a lot of other shows that you could be listening to.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of other ways you could be spending your time, but the fact that you take your time to spend here with me on the Daily Writer Podcast, I don't take that for granted.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm very, very sincerely thankful for that.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for listening, and I will see you in the next episode.