Latest / LAST BEST HOPE: A Babylon 5 Podcast for Our Uncertain Age / #4 – Where Everyone Has Gone Before (VOICES OF AUTHORITY)

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#4 – Where Everyone Has Gone Before (VOICES OF AUTHORITY) · LAST BEST HOPE: A Babylon 5 Podcast for Our Uncertain Age

• 0:00
  JOHN: Foreign. Welcome to Last best Hope Babylon 5 podcast, where we discuss the greatness of the show as well as the stories and plotting in that show that seem oddly familiar to us today as we may or may not parallel Earth forces slide into authoritarian rule. Today we're going to be going over Voices of Authority. I'm John, and with me is Josh. And this is an episode that I watched first right when I started going back through Babylon 5. And, you know, when these sort of parallels and the writing of the show hit us as, oh, it was warning of something real. It was taken from history. This is an episode that really just gives you the creeps about it because it's not a military episode. It's not a, you know, grand conflict episode. It's the, oh, this is what the agents, you know, the political agents of these forces do. And they're conniving and convincing. And I guess. Is that the. A plot line of this episode? The political officer assigned to Captain Sheridan in the form of Julius Vasante. Is the A scoring?
• 1:08
  JOSH: Yeah, I think that would be considered the. The A plot. I think you could make a case for one of the other plots, but I think generally a rule of thumb is whatever plot occupies the most screen time. And I think that they spend the most scenes dealing with Julie Musante and the introduction of a political officer to Babylon 5 and the awkwardness of that. And also we get a lot of information through her about what is actually going on back home on Earth in terms of government policy. And it was also creepy in the sense I feel like she's talking about.
• 1:46
  JOHN: Now is really discomforting in that way, you know, for listeners. A political officer is not a. Is not a unique concept to the show or anything else. It's a very common concept. It was usually referred to in, in my familiarity with, in the Soviet Union was sort of, you know, how I grew up. You know, when I first heard that term. I think it was actually in Hunt for Red October.
• 2:08
  JOSH: October, yeah.
• 2:09
  JOHN: Right, right. Great movie. Recommended to everybody. You know, so, you know, aboard the Russian submarines, not only do you have the military personnel, but you had a political officer assigned who was there with a certain amount of authority, was always unclear, but they were there to both monitor and ensure that even the captain is being loyal to the party, being loyal to the government. And obviously that plays out in some really fascinating ways and how that movie unfolds. So this is sort of the same idea, but. But it's, but, but it's. But it's more of a PR person, you know, it's okay, let's, let. Let's smooth out the edges of a. Of an appointee, or in this case, a military Governor of Babylon 5 and make sure that they're, you know, representing the government in exactly the right way to promote what Irfgov wants. And that sounds innocuous on its face. It's like, okay, so you want, you. You want to make sure that you're presenting your station or, you know, you could be the governor of an island, whatever, whatever it might be in any context, you want to present it in a light that's both flattering and communicating what your government wants to communicate. So, okay, you know, like, I guess that makes sense, right? That. That does it. But what this usually means is, no, we're going to frame things in a way that are less than truthful. That's where you get the Orwellian double speak and is that we're going to. We're going to say something. It might have multiple meanings. We might. Might have no meaning except to, you know, portray us a certain way or to confuse things. But we will get in there and seem entirely reasonable. And that's what she is. She is this incredibly beautiful, beautiful woman who comes on the station immediately with a. With a, With a, you know, sense of authority. That's why I think, actually that's a great name for the episode because she has a sense of authority. The B plot, which is the more sci fi, really cool aspect with what Ivanava ends up doing and using the great machine to explore and search out for the first ones is. Is also relevant to that title. But she's very powerful when she comes on the station, immediately has the attention of Zach Allen, you know, and knows exactly what she's doing. Intercepts the captain, and you could see he's a little bit off, like, oh, oh, I have to manage this. Yeah, he's had experience like this before.
• 4:34
  JOSH: You know what's really interesting about that, to me, that really stands out, especially now, given our current reality, is the way that she is sexy and she uses sex. She uses heteronormative sex, right, to sort of manipulate and entice. And the way that she. She talks about it like she's doing her part, right? And that's a part of it. Part of my role here is to please you sexually. It sort of reminds me of like, you know, Fox News, for example, is notorious for presenting in their female broadcasters a certain vision of female sexuality. Trump himself and the larger online, right, is so obsessed with these overt displays of masculinity and female subservience and proving their virility the way that they really only understand things in terms of power relations. And that's how they're using sex. Sex, in a lot of ways, is about power relations. And it's sort of like because of that, that is a useful tool in the authoritarian's toolbox. That really stood out to me because it's not just that she comes on to Captain Sheridan, you know, trying to show him that, hey, you know, maybe this isn't so bad. Right. But she's also similarly enticing Zack.
• 6:05
  JOHN: Yeah. Until. Until she drops him. Until she drops him.
• 6:08
  JOSH: Until she drops him. And it is almost as if she needs to manage above and below to do what she has to do to get the captain eating out of her hand. But she also needs the rank and file. And it is interesting because in the dynamic, she's, like, very dismissive of Zack, very mean to him. Right. Yet it's still sexual. And she knows it. She knows he's attracted to her. Yeah, Right. And there's also that scene where she goes into his quarters. I'm pretty sure they had sex. Maybe not. But, you know, watching it now with that in mind, I was like, why else would she like. I think she's mad that the sex thing is working on Zack and it's not working on Sheridan.
• 6:53
  JOHN: That's a really important component. And then to think, I mean, just in the larger picture, Babylon 5 did not often at all portray sex or sexual interactions. It was, on occasion, implied. But it wasn't meant to be a, like, overtly sexy show. That's why this actually stands out in a very important way. It wasn't like, let's bring on the beefcake and the bombshell and make it all about the sexual tension and everything else. This, this, this is definitely an outlier. I was. I was watching another episode with Stephen Franklin right before he got. As he begins walkabout, but before the episode walkabout. And he has the. Yeah, the singer has a brief romance with a singer on the station and you do so them in bed afterwards. So initially I was thinking, well, is this just. Is. Was this a 90s over sexualization? But then I thought of the rest of the show. There was no other trend line in the writing of Babylon 5 of overly sexualizing or unfairly sexualizing people. Both men and women characters in this show were both equally strong, sometimes taking on different roles. I mean, the Delenn Sheridan dynamic definitely is meant to sort of highlight masculine and feminine energies to some Extent, but there was no subservience. I mean, you have the moments where it is Delenn who comes in and gives that line which we're going to be talking about in a few episodes, you know, says there was only one captain to have ever survived an encounter with, you know, destroyed a member ship. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else. I mean, somewhere else. It really balanced all the energy there without taking away. This is an example of, I guess, a retrograde sort of view on femininity as a manipulation technique which we don't see anywhere else in the show. And for it to be coming from a authoritarian, becoming authoritarian government for that, it sort of fits. It sort of fits that the more, the more you go towards that, that old world traditional mindset of hierarchy and control from the top, from resentment of other groups, that you begin to put women into a more sexualized, subservient role. So even though she doesn't, you know, she comes off as very strong, she is serving this thing and believes it. She says, you know, I am. She says in part of her speech, we're here to make sure that everyone on Babylon 5 understands the important loyalty to Earth, and then talks about that. She's there to do her part. You know, as you said earlier, she believes in the cause and is doing it. And it definitely rings close to what we see in a lot of the figures in this current administration who, again, you can't help but feel like most of them, you know, are trying to mimic Trump's expectation for what their appearance and for what their, you know, speech should be. There are even people talking about the articles written on the. The Mar a Lago face, quite literally for men and women, by the way, the types of plastic surgery expressions and adjustments people get done that Trump really likes. And that's seen, I mean, in the men. It's seen in most extensively the Matt Gates, the excessive use of Botox, very high, very high eyebrows and these pictures. You go, like, all these people who are in the inner circle have the same look and it's very similar amongst the women. It's a very specific look of plastic surgery, very specific hair colors and hairstyles. I believe the changes that the DH secretary made to her appearance are very reminiscent of that and very clear in timeline. They're trying to please the king. You know, what this, this is like the, the French court. You know, everybody, you know, wants to follow the, the style of Louis xiv. You know, this is. This is what people do when they're in a court. Yeah.
• 10:56
  JOSH: It's like what happens with Cartagia later.
• 10:59
  JOHN: Yeah, yeah. And everybody, everybody just follows along. It's like, oh, even if you didn't like the style or the aesthetic or certainly the philosophy and the things you're doing, you follow along because you're a member of the court and you have to make sure to follow the rules. And that's a very, very common impulse in people, especially people who are pursuing power. And so it doesn't surprise me to see that that particular form of, of follow leader manifesting here. But also, yeah, the weird parallel between this and, and Fox News and the, and the variety of news anchors you see that all have the same look, all have that same aesthetic to them. So she comes in and. Yeah, seems like 25 years ahead of her time from what we're experiencing in this. And is there to make sure that the captain is. What does she say? Sorry, John line. But also help him to understand, you know, Earth gov's needs and that it's going to be a good working relationship. The first time they are going to interact. She gets him to go to dinner at the nicest place in the station. And, and it is funny, you know, the jokiness of Avalon 5 sometimes comes off as a little hammy, you know, and some of these, some of the romances do and you know, it becomes so sort of self aware. I don't think they care. I think they're just like, you know what? We know what we're doing, we're going to ham it up. And Sheridan's reactions are just like, like, oh, what is, what is happening here? Oh no, no, no, no, no, we can't be doing this. And so that dinner was so, so awkward. Almost humorously awkward. But she's, but she's layering in all this information about what the goals of Earth gov are in terms of portraying the station staying in line with the messaging from Earth. And very clearly she's there to make sure that everybody is going to be following the line from President Clark. She's not happy with how independent the station has been behaving.
• 12:58
  JOSH: The thing that I also found particularly chilling about that scene was the idea that she introduces about how sometimes the way to handle a problem is to redefine it. She says, you know, we don't have homeless. And Sheridan is like, what are you talking about? And she's like, we don't have the problem. And Sheridan says, when did all this happen? And she says, when we decided to rewrite the dictionary yeah. And a few times she alludes to. She talks about, yeah, but we don't have that problem. You know, like, we don't have crime, we don't have poverty, we don't have this. And then she reluctantly says, well, there's a little. But it's all caused by the lazy, the criminal, and the mentally unstable, and we have new systems in place to root them out at an early age. So, basically, what she's describing, the role of the state has changed. Not to serve all the people. It's to serve the people with the right behavior, the right beliefs, who. Who fit the mold. And if you don't get with the program, you're lazy or you're unstable or you're. She also says these people are anarchists or simply unpatriotic. Yeah, like, oh, they're just unpatriotic. And it's like you get very similar, very scary parallels to what's happening right now. You know, the war on the concept of diversity, equity, and inclusion, removing all of the references to anything resembling something that even hints at the idea that you, you know, maybe there are racial inequities that our system has perpetuated, and having an awareness of them is the way you take steps to solving them. And she's saying, well, if you rewrite the dictionary, if you say, no, no, no, that's not. That's not racism. That's not discrimination. Those are lazy people.
• 15:01
  JOHN: They're lazy people or they don't exist. This. This really hits home because you have the assault on DEI on one hand happening right now. And, and to be clear, I mean, what that stands for, diversity, equity, and inclusion, you know, those weren't bad words long ago, but. But, but again, a couple of months ago, the word empathy became a sin. If you look at how. How the response moves. That was quite literally a phrase used in response to the Episcopal minister who spoke to Trump after the inauguration asking for compassion for people. But it's really important here to use a point to. To look at what they're doing to the trans community, to not only say, they start with the government no longer.
• 15:41
  JOSH: Recognizing, they're saying that you don't exist.
• 15:45
  JOHN: They'Re saying that they won't acknowledge that these people, this community exists, period. And they went so far. I mean, and when you talk about levels of pettiness that go along with things like that, to go to the Stonewall Monument and to erase, quite literally erase the tea from lgbt, when it was the transgender community who were there first and foremost at that riot that began the modern gay rights movement, as we think about it, you know, the first ones to risk their lives, the first ones to. To put their necks out for the rest and then to obliterate it from a monument to that very event shows you the sort of twisted thinking behind this. And I think on the international level, you have countries, you know, Iran's government has very publicly stated, oh, we don't have gay people here. We don't have that problem. That's quite literally a statement that's made numerous times over recent decades. And that's what they do. You know, they say. They're saying, well, from a definitional standpoint, we don't recognize that they exist. And of course, with a wink and a nod, if somebody does go down that road, we will take care of it. They don't exist here. Russia is about this close to that. They are effectively there right now. And that's, again, who this administration likes to cozy up to and who the Project 2025 people laud. They see that as this linchpin of we have to return to conservative, traditional family values. They see the LGBTQ community and the transgender community as primary threat and a restoration of, you know, putting women in the home and the old roles coming back, which is what Putin regular speaks upon. Actually, that was. That was. When he came back into power in 2012, that was a cornerstone of his new administration. People think it was more the. Their territorial aspirations, but. But it was. Was. It was that as well. So redefining people, redefining groups of people is how you obliterate them. That's the basis of antisemitism, is to take a group of people and redefine them with some twisted, horrible lies that you simply keep on repeating until that becomes the definition that the majority of the population accepts as what this group must be. And it's done with a smile, it's done with an air of professionalism. It's done with an air of authority, which is what this character really has. You know, again, this show suffers very often from some questionable casting of the. Of the individual episode actors who come up for just an episode or two. This was a home run. She was a home run, like, absolutely perfect in this portrayal, because she needed to be. She presented the character exactly as she needed to be. You know, and then as she moves on just from that. From that dinner, as she begins to see that she's losing a little bit of the. The. The power of seduction she has over Sheridan, you know, when she goes back to the Night Watch, it's less Friendly. She's far more. She's going right out there like you. You better rat these people out. Anybody who's not patriotic, anybody who's not loyal, anybody who talks about anything and slightly seditious, we need to know who they are so we can help them. And that was that. That was the. That was the gloved fist, was. Oh, but when you do rat them out, nothing bad happens. We simply help them. We correct their, Their. Their misperceptions about what Earth God is really up to and everything else. And that was the other. That's. That's the other face of, of what this type of person, but also what that type of political agent typically does.
• 19:41
  JOSH: You know, that was particularly chilling to watch today, given that in the news they have detained a Palestinian activist not for committing a crime. They say he has done nothing illegal, but simply that his beliefs and his activism is a threat.
• 20:03
  JOHN: Yeah.
• 20:04
  JOSH: So they have essentially disappeared him for all intents and purposes, and they are admitting he's committed no crime. But he's saying the wrong things.
• 20:13
  JOHN: Yeah. Guilty of saying or believing the wrong things or speaking out in a way that's not. And the thing about, the thing about that, which, you know, in the show we see two distinct scenes of where a shopkeeper is not only shut down, is arrested and disappeared. We. You never see that character again. You know, he's been disappeared. Whether he was taken back to earth is unclear, but we know what happened to him is unclear because that's the point. You don't know. That's the scary part of it. And everybody always focuses on, you know, well, maybe there's a bit of, you know, again, shaping speech in a certain way. Well, maybe they did say something pretty horrendous. Maybe they did say something that's really uncomfortable or that it's just completely opposite of what you believe. But that's. That's the point. You're not looking at somebody. You're not defending them because you agree with them. You're not defending them because you say, well, this person's just like me. You defend somebody because you say, well, that can be me the next day, because if I'm on the outskirts. And that's where you get that classic interpretation of the First Amendment is that I will fight for your right to say anything, even if I vehemently disagree with it. And to really cut the edge of this, to say, well, but remember, unless you're a citizen, the government can really decide up until that point whether or not it wants to fully extend you those rights. And deem you potentially a threat? Well, from a conceptual standpoint, for any group of people, what is that line between permanent resident to citizen to anything else that says, oh, well, now the citizen is a threat with what they're saying now, you may not have a place to send them, they may not have another place of origin that you could theoretically deport them to, but you would just as similarly disappear them or threaten them or intimidate, et cetera. And that's what it's getting at, is it? This is meant as a form of silencing that opposition, not, not anything more complicated than that, that other people will say, well, I am under threat. Columbia University comes in and says to its own students in the day after, we can't protect you, we can't protect you. Scrub your social media, stay under the radar. This is at the journalism school, you know, don't do anything. And that's the point. The point is not to literally disappear everybody, but it's to make an example.
• 22:34
  JOSH: To make you fear.
• 22:35
  JOHN: Exactly.
• 22:36
  JOSH: Speaking out. You know, in this particular situation, speaking of rewriting the dictionary, a way that they're getting away with this is that they have redefined what anti Semitism is. To say that any criticism of Israel is equivalent to being anti Semitic or is a pro Hamas position, you know, which is just wild. So it is literally silencing dissent. It is literally making it impossible to express any opposing idea to the official narrative without risking your freedom.
• 23:11
  JOHN: And that's the term is, is to the official narrative. In this case, it's of a specific government, whether it's the US Government right now or the government of Israel right now. And, and I, and I say that because, because that's a temporal thing. It's the government right now, and they're saying, oh, no, but you can't oppose it under any circumstances, you know, and, and, and when that, and when that sort of notion takes root and takes root from fear at the same time in this show, what's happening right now is that the more and more information is coming out about the shadows. It's only an episode or two from now that they try to destroy the shadow ship that Irf Gubb is working on on Mars. And that is like the final thing of, like, you see, those aliens are out to get us. We have to declare martial law. We have to lock it down. And, and you get people used to that by getting them more fearful. There are real, there are always real issues, but they're, you know, when you amp them up in a certain way and you say well, you see, because these protests exist, you're unsafe. And you start enhancing that notion more and more in the narrative that any opposition decreases your safety. And the history of protest has always been one of people who you may agree with, wildly disagree with, who are. And many met many who are not what you'd consider great people who you want to hang out with. You know, that's not the point. This idea that the only way you're entitled to your rights and your dignity is if you are also exactly the right kind of person and nullifies those very rights and opens it up to say, yes, well, maybe you didn't speak the right way, you didn't do the right thing. And once the population is used to that, that's how it goes. It was very quick to see, you know, how the Night Watch idea took hold amongst the. The followers. Now it's a written show, so they can say, hey, act this way. Have this kind of expression on your face. The Night Watch officers and this. They're all like, yeah, that sounds completely reasonable. But. But that's all of them. Not all, no. And some. Some of them do object. And you see. And you see the fault lines beginning there.
• 25:10
  JOSH: Yeah. Which I think is very realistic. The. The way that they initiated was like, yeah. You know, like, we're just an organization and you, you know, we're going to clean up the streets or the corridors or.
• 25:20
  JOHN: Yeah, you get extra 50 credits. You know, it's, you know, and then.
• 25:25
  JOSH: Slowly, like the frog in the pot, they're slowly turning up the heat. And then along the way, you lose some, you know, as you get more draconian and more authoritarian. There are some, as we see here, you know, in that scene, there's one actor, there's one security person who says, isn't all this a little extreme? And he's like, well, you can't do that because of X, Y, Z. And she's like, no, well, we're not talking about criminal law. We're talking about political. Yes, whatever. She says, once again, dealing with the problem by redefining it, changing the definitions, playing semantics with the letter of the law so that you make everything seem reasonable and above board.
• 26:10
  JOHN: Yeah. And that's. And that's how, you know, she eventually wins more and more people over those. Those who are not willing to play ball sort of do end up walking away because they all. They also get exposed. The people who question her. That's more of a red flag to the true believers as. As they're going on that. And that's how you form a more consistent group of followers is to weed out the people questioning. And as each episode progresses here, you see that happening. With Night Watch, you see that, you know, initially there's more challenge. That challenge diminishes over time, gets reshaped and then by the time it comes to a head, the only people left at Night Watch, which is still the majority of security, other people are like, yeah, but this makes total sense. Some of them sure are probably looking to crack some heads because that's always a component of that. But there were just a lot of people who, they were like, this seems reasonable to me. JMS talks about this episode from the lurkers guy, I guess from way, way, way back. And it's, it's the concept we're all familiar with. People buy it because they're primed to believe it, because they want to believe it, because they're afraid not to believe it. No, she wasn't subtle. But there's a time for subtly and there's a time before grandly for your hand picked audience and go for the big lie.
• 27:24
  JOSH: Wow.
• 27:25
  JOHN: And later on in those same comments is talking about it didn't require all the Germans to be convinced by Hitler. You just, you don't need all, you just need enough and preferably enough of the ones with guns. And that was what, that was what he said. And it's that, that's chilling because that's, that doesn't change. Yeah. Again, we've talked about this before where you think, oh, but it was so different 80 years ago. It was just a different world, different people. It was a unique population and everything else. It's not unique. That's why you can write about this in 1995 and have it relevant then and have it just as relevant now.
• 28:02
  JOSH: You know, that reminds me of a line that Zach has toward the end. So Ivanova, through the great machine, has found this transmission of President Clark communicating with someone we don't see, but we hear the voice and we recognize the voice as Mr. Morden, the emissary for the shadows. And it's basically a confession that he's behind the assassination of Santiago. It is the smoking gun, the like clearest piece of evidence that you could possibly hope for. And you know, they release it. And immediately in the wake of that, Zack has this scene with Garibaldi, you know, which is a great scene. Once again, I think that Jerry Doyle and even Jeff Conaway, I think aren't really given the due that they deserve for, for their performances in the show. Cause I was watching that scene at the end, and I was like, I really love watching these characters interact, and I really, really buy it. But anyway, Zach starts out the scene commenting to Garibald Baldi about the release of this video, and he says, I just can't believe it. It's gotta be a mistake, right?
• 29:10
  JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:11
  JOSH: And it's like you literally have seen the man say, I did this. Right. But it's so unthinkable. It's so inconvenient. If that's true, because of what that sort of demands of you, you know, what is your responsibility then? Like, how much of what I believe and what I serve has to be completely reevaluated and destroyed. Right. A few episodes later, he ends up choosing to secede along with the rest of the command staff.
• 29:41
  JOHN: Right.
• 29:41
  JOSH: But that is not an easy decision to make.
• 29:44
  JOHN: And. And nor is it a foregone conclusion because so many officers don't go that route. As the show progresses, the show deals with that issue time and time again. The officers who follow orders, officers who are genuinely all the way to the literal very end of the story arc when Earth is freed, where the general that trained Sheridan and his General Leftcourt, I believe, you know, is there. And he is. He is absolutely aghast at what his government is doing, but will not take arms. You know, he will not stand up in any way against it. And he believes he's completely right. He believes he is as moral and as justified and as solid in his views as he was when he was fighting the mbari 10 years ago and when he took the oath years before that. And it doesn't villainize him. It doesn't say, well, therefore we got to, like, get rid of all these people and make sure they're punished and everything else. But it's says, wow, this is. This is really complicated and really a problem because it. It's. Again, it's not just baddies on the other side. That's the whole thing. It's not just the baddies and the goods on this side. And we can clearly see who is who. And if you don't sort of think things through and wake up, yeah, you have to sacrifice almost everything. The whole point of Babylon 5 in season three is that they have to give everything up and maybe never go home to do what. To do what they do. So it's. It's a lot easier to go along with it because, you know, your. Your family's not going to be a threat, your life isn't going to be a threat. All these things that would be threatened otherwise. And, and then, as you said, like, he didn't want to believe it because you can't believe the, the leader would do that at the same time as the leader keeps on pushing the envelope, you know, so. Because, okay, I wouldn't believe that he did that. It becomes. Well, even if he did.
• 31:27
  JOSH: Right.
• 31:28
  JOHN: And that transmission, they get it to General Haig's people, they're able to verify the goal, channel communication. So that's like story wise, taking away the component that, well, maybe it was a faked transmission. This is a way of saying that, oh, universally speaking, people recognize this wasn't faked. You don't have to like, spend a whole episode examining the forensics of it. We just say we know it's not faked, but so it's accepted as well, this is real. But it doesn't matter. And it will then be countered by, oh, well, even though it's been verified, it still must be fake. And if you talk about it, you're a traitor. So just, just, just hush up. Like you can't even talk about it.
• 32:03
  JOSH: Yes, right.
• 32:04
  JOHN: And she's. And she's pulled back to Earth. So the story, McGuffin, is that you're wondering, oh, God, is she gonna be on the station the whole time? Is Sheridan gonna have to hide? Because the, the whole point of the story of this episode is that he is supposed to go down to the Great Machine. He's supposed to start exploring the cosmos withdrawal and find other first ones. And he sends Ivana Ben, which is another classic, very funny Ivanava scene where her first interaction with Drawl. And he, I think he's pretending to be all offended because obviously he knew who was coming. He's draw, but has all that, you know, I love that actor. The blusteriness he can do it with. I don't know if that's even the right word, but he just has that deep rumbling voice with one of those laughter and anger.
• 32:43
  JOSH: Yeah, he has.
• 32:44
  JOHN: So good. So good. And he goes, oh, I like you. And you know, I, you know, it sort of seems like it was always planned that was gonna be a von of a. But it turns out that way. So Sheridan has to stay in the station to deal with this. And he was gonna be hamstrung by her all the time. Every decision he made would be. Would be second guessed. He certainly wouldn't have been able to do anything secret as a result. And she is pulled back to Earth to deal with this, this evidence that has now come out against President Clark. And so You've seen what her talents are, what her what, what her modus operandi is on Babylon 5. So you can assume reasonably, that's going to be what's applied back on Earth to dealing with this tape very much for this transmission as it was. And that sort of sets up well, how do you win a battle of, of ideas? Because in a realistic situation, all of Earth Dome should have been up in arms and said, we, you know, we need to investigate this. They do imply that the Senate Investigative Committee did start investigating. And, and this is where it gets really, really interesting as, as you go into the next episode, is that a lot of people don't want to believe it. A lot of people on the station do believe it. You see crowd reactions and such and Night Watch, you know, cracking down and provoking people who were not rioting into, into physical altercations with the Night Watch personnel. You know, classic techniques you see in modern protests. You know, that's. You just. That's how it goes with authoritarians. I can't help but think that, yeah, this is the same playbook and it's get. It's first to get you not to believe something and then it's to move you past a point where it's relevant. That makes me think of a line like Trump said years ago when he said I could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue in plain daylight and my followers would still be with me. He said that. Not a commentator, not anybody else. He, he quite literally said that he knows the game and he knows how to. How to. How to get true believers. So once you have those true believers, all you have to do is push that goalpost further and further every day until there's essentially nothing you can do that will offend them, that will, that. That will get them to stop following you.
• 34:53
  JOSH: Yeah. I mean, when they found the. I keep calling it the smoking gun and then they released it into the, the media ecosystem and the political ecosystem. You know, I kept thinking the way that our news media works now, like, there is nothing literally, there is nothing that a frighteningly large segment of the population, there is nothing they could see, nothing they could be shown that would make their support waver. Because it's not about learning the real truth. It's about making the world comport with your belief in how it should be.
• 35:32
  JOHN: Yeah.
• 35:32
  JOSH: So if there's something that is inconvenient for that, you will do whatever you have to do to rationalize it, to make it go away, to make it irrelevant, to make confronting it the problem.
• 35:47
  JOHN: Yes.
• 35:48
  JOSH: Not the actual Content of what it is. The real harm is even engaging with it and bringing it up the classical.
• 35:56
  JOHN: Way they do that is to say, like, remember the alien threat we're under. That's more important. That's a scary thing. It's like, maybe there's a problem with our leaders, maybe there's not. But you're the problem if you bring it up during this time. I'm not sure that time becomes all time. It's.
• 36:11
  JOSH: Well, yeah, I mean, you just look at, you know, 9, 11. We have been sort of in a constant state of, you know, well, you shouldn't be talking about that. You know, it's inappropriate to be talking about that. You know, a version of that, writ smaller, writ large, depending on your perspective, I guess, is, you know, in this country, every time there's a school shooting, the reaction to anyone even mentioning trying to do something about the gun problem is to be like, stop politicizing the tragedy. Not appropriate to be talking about that so soon after this tragedy, even though, you know, that is the moment to do it. And the way that you make facing the problem somehow a violation of. Of decorum.
• 36:54
  JOHN: Do you suspect that's also, you know, and that's not something the show deals with directly, but that sounds a lot like abuse tactics.
• 37:03
  JOSH: Oh, yeah.
• 37:04
  JOHN: You know, I think that's what's so uncomfortable about the whole thing here is that it's. It's a form of just saying we will try to disable any way you stand up for yourself. So don't even bother standing up for yourself.
• 37:17
  JOSH: The show does deal with this later on the Intersections in Real Time episode where they interrogate a captured Sheridan.
• 37:25
  JOHN: Oh, yes.
• 37:26
  JOSH: That whole thing is about, you know, essentially, see what you're making us do to you. Yeah. You are making us do this. I don't want to put you through this, but you're not. You are not giving me a choice.
• 37:40
  JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:42
  JOSH: And, you know, having to endure that much physical and psychological torment. You can imagine very easily why these techniques work, because you'll do anything, anything to stop it. And then when you realize all I have to do is just say what he wants me to say, who cares? I need to get out of this.
• 38:03
  JOHN: Yeah, you got to get out of it. And that was. That's. It's funny because last. Last time we were talking about becomes Inquisitor. And that was very much, you know, just give up. Tell the people what you know, tell Inquisitor, tell anybody what they want to hear, and you're free to go. And that was whether it was Shadows or Vorlons or. Or. Or the Nazis or. Or any government. That's the technique. It is. Give somebody an out where they can get their life back to a unharassed state. I think that that's what people are looking for. They're saying. And. And that's what we're seeing in the reaction to what we were talking about earlier with Columbia is they're saying, just keep your head down. Just don't do anything that will get their attention. We can't protect you. There was no. There was no concept of solidarity. There was no concept of, like, okay, we may be going through this and some of us may suffer. We have to stand up against it. It was just keep your head down. That's. That's the. Really. That might be the most effective and also the most demoralizing technique is when you hear from somebody, just keep your head down. You'll be. You'll be fine. It's something that plays larger in the show too, is the idea of keeping your head down with the Shadows. An episode, almost a season, or about 10 episodes after this. You know, Sheridan's trying to figure out, how do I cobble together the League of Non Aligned Worlds to, you know, to stand up against the Shadows when they have been manipulated by the Shadows to think they were protected and attack each other. So you had the game. We're sort of the Insectoid species. We're asked to take in refugees from another group that has been decimated by Shadows and say, no, we can't do that because no one can protect us. And we've kept our heads down. Maybe the Shadows won't notice us. And that line gets me every time. Maybe the Shadows won't notice us. It's like the Shadows have noticed everybody. They're one of the two remaining large ancient species left. They've noticed you. The point is they're playing whatever game they're playing. But this idea. Well, if they don't notice me and I just keep my head down and go along, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. Sheridan has to counteract their cowardice with a display of power from the Warlons, which comes at a great price as well. And then they go, okay, well, then maybe we. Then maybe we can do this thing. I don't know how you counteract that in modern day. Very easily, because you have to almost say to people, well, if you don't keep your head down, you're definitely at more risk. And is it okay to ask somebody to take that risk for What? We don't know what possible of any gain there would be in somebody maintaining their social media, especially if somebody's at risk of deportation. You know, right now it's easier for a US citizen to say, well, I can continue to post whatever I want. But I've had. I've had that same thought. I've literally had that thought as I'm about to post either a news article or meme or anything else. I thought to myself, well, what if, what if this is used against me.
• 40:54
  JOSH: And you just having the thought is what they want. The damage is done. Yeah, yeah, right. Like this podcast. Frankly, I have had a niggling thought every once in a while because I know the sorts of things that I am going to say and, like, I don't believe I'm in any imminent danger or under threat. But if it's out there, if it's.
• 41:16
  JOHN: Out there, let's put it this, let's put it in very uncomfortable terms for both of us. If either one of us were not citizens of this country. What we've already said on a podcast about Babylon 5, based on what I've read about this would be enough. If they wanted to.
• 41:33
  JOSH: If they wanted to.
• 41:34
  JOHN: If they wanted to. Now, are we, Are we relevant to them in any way? Probably not, no.
• 41:38
  JOSH: But the idea that if they wanted.
• 41:40
  JOHN: If they wanted to, they could, and they would simply say, you're no longer here. And, and how many steps are we away from that affecting everybody? I mean, I, I genuinely wonder. Well, is that going to increase your chances of subtle harassment? I was thinking doing taxes at that time of year when. Well, that's where the form of harassment comes in. Well, you'll see some nasty audits come in. You'll see decisions not going your favor on that regard, that you have to spend a huge amount of resources to fight. If you did have illegal. If you weren't legal, the legal right, like small, subtle things that can be used against you and will be, you know, potentially deployed out there. And it's not that it's going to be done to you. It's, it's, it's the threat. And that's why only one shopkeeper. And as Okolo that we see gets locked. They didn't have to say, this is happening every episode. You just needed one. Everybody else looks around and says, if it happened to him, it can happen to me. I'll keep my head down. Sheridan crew were supposed to be the shining example of what happens when you don't. But honestly, the same way you're Dealing with a game. The only way to convince them to stand up was to show them that there was some power behind them. In that case, the Vorlons. Sheridan has some power behind him first. You know, 10 episodes or so before this his first ally in the form of the Great Machine comes out of the board work and says, you will have many more allies. And that's why the show is able to go in this hopeful sort of direction. You know, as much of a slog it is to get to through the Shadow War and Earth's freedom. But it's scary when you're not Sheridan. You know, when you're not Sheridan, when you don't have those allies in place it's a lot harder to say, well, I have that courage. I can stand up and say that, well, I want to know, where are our allies? And that's a really good question right now. Because today it doesn't feel like there are many allies. And if you go to the show, you say, well, the average person probably felt the same way because only Sheridan knew about the Great Machine. Only Sheridan knew and a few others knew about the White Star fleet. Only a few others knew about all the things that they were gathering over time. The everyday people on Babylon 5 had no idea that any of that was happening. And certainly the people on Earth had even less. So you can't. That's why you. Even further can't blame the people of Earth for not doing more against President Clark because what possible reason did they have to believe that there was anybody there to back them up if they did?
• 44:12
  JOSH: No. Yeah. And it's not until Sheridan shows up with the fleet and he says, we know that many of you have wanted to do something. Now's your chance. And without wasting any time there is a procession marching toward the president's office like they wanted to do something.
• 44:33
  JOHN: But as they said in that very episode, when it's happening. But they were afraid for themselves and their families. And that is a profoundly human thing. And you can't demonize people for that. That that's who any of us are. And if push comes to shove, I don't know what I would do in that case. If I were in. If I was in Earth Dome or if I was, you know, in the Halls of Power, you know what I would do? I. Well, I. I have a sense that I would want to walk away from it. I at least wouldn't want to be participating, sure, in that. But to be a Sheridan, to be able to stand up for that. And this is. This is the point in the show right now, with this episode where you're seeing children have to come to grips with that. When you're thinking of the show, in hindsight, you think of him as the. As the victor, as the one who forgers the alliance, as all this other stuff. But this is the point where he's not sure yet. He doesn't want to do it. He doesn't want to put other people at risk doing that. He doesn't want to put the people of Avalon 5, you know, quarter million people there. Is that. Is that how many people are on the station?
• 45:30
  JOSH: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the thing that I think weighs on him because he has a line in several. In severed dreams, which, you know, we will. We will, of course, be discussing at some point. You know, we all saw this train coming toward us, and we hoped that we would be able to do something to get it off track or to get it on track or whatever he says. And it's like, but this train's headed right for us. I think that he always knew what he would do, but he was trying like hell to avoid having to be in a situation where he was going to do it because he didn't want to, for all the reasons that you said. He's in charge of a quarter million people. He has friends, he has colleagues, he has family, home. You know, it's very, very risky. Just one last thing that I wanted to mention, and I noticed it from the very, very start of the episode, and you were talking about, you know, you brought up the humor. Right. And the very beginning of the episode. I love this little runner of the fact that Zack's jacket doesn't fit.
• 46:31
  JOHN: Right. Yeah.
• 46:32
  JOSH: Because it's. It's funny, obviously, but it's also a little metaphorical. He's struggling with what his role is, what his position is. It doesn't sit exactly right yet. So I thought that that was a delightful way to lighten the mood a little. But it's also. It's also operating on another level. It's like literally the internal struggle of the character and just more broadly. Yeah. You know, B5 has a very idiosyncratic sense of humor, which is, you know, largely up to the idiosyncratic sense of humor of JMS himself. But something that I realized, though, humor is a weapon against authoritarianism.
• 47:11
  JOHN: Yes.
• 47:13
  JOSH: Because they can't take a joke, and they are terrified of being made to look silly or weak. So whenever you see Clark or the Shadows or Morden, like, they never crack a joke, you know, like they're very, very serious. So like the weird hammy at times humor that, that sometimes lands more than other times, that is a weapon. And I think, you know, intentionally or not, the presence of it in the show, I think is a reminder. You know, you were saying the other week that Babylon 5 was showing not just that there's hope, but, but that there is joy. And I think, yeah, you know, make that joke, make that terrible pun. Make yourself look silly. Risk looking silly. Because every time you risk looking silly, you're proving that you're stronger than they are because they are weak, they are terrified. They are terrified of looking silly because the facade is so flimsy, it's so fragile.
• 48:21
  JOHN: They are so, so profound, their identities at the same time. Yeah. So you can't get around it. I, I think, I think of the, the history of survivors of, of any great tragedy. And that's oftentimes, sometimes you call gallows humor in some contexts, other times. But it, it's so profoundly human. I remember a. Trying to remember the context, but it was, it was, it was about a television show that was showcasing the LGBTQ rights movement of the 70s, 80s and 90s era, I think. And one of the criticisms, by the way, the hardest audience to write for is the gay community. Because if you write about us, we will savage you. Because. Well, you didn't get that right. You didn't get that right. Well, you did get this right. I mean, we are, we are not pleasable. It is, it is kind of hilarious to watch. And then we clamor for more content. It's a wonderful thing. I think that's that self reflective nature. But there was something missing from this, from this docudrama that was being aired and it was the humor. So it was being very dramatic about what people are going through, particularly in the HIV crisis, about how serious it was, because it was a serious event. But something that those who had lived through, that were commenting on and criticizing was that's not how it was in its entirety. How we survived, according to these people who, you know, who watched almost all their friends die of this disease, was a sense of humor and joy in their community. And still finding that, that part in life, if you don't do that, it's a lot harder to survive. But it also is the way to reinforce your humanity. And you're right, the big bads can't handle that for very long. They have to do everything they can to make sure there is no joy left, that life is as gray as possible. And it's. Yeah, that, that humor from season one also onwards, sometimes it did feel a little bit hammy. But then now as I'm watching and I see it, I say, you know what? They're doing it also because they're, they're all just sort of like goofing and connecting together. And they're doing it also the same way you produce a TV show. When we got to. I don't know if you remember watching at the conventions, the gag reels.
• 50:30
  JOSH: Oh, sure.
• 50:31
  JOHN: Of this show. Oh, they, There'd be somebody selling them on vhs, you know, here's the gag reel for season two or three or whatever. And it's not an easy thing to do to film 22 episodes a season. I mean, they don't even do that anymore. It seems everything's eight or 10 episodes now. It is a really brutal thing to film a show like this with that kind of schedule. You get through that with humor, with, with goofiness at times and celebration, and it breaks the back of that feeling of oppression. So when you see that even, even all the way to the end, you know, and they're not cracking jokes, the sake of cracking jokes, it's just sort of, you know, it's there in this episode. It was definitely draw. It was definitely Ivanova's reaction when she pops in when Sheridan is trying to not sleep with the political officer there. And of course, she pops in at the absolute wrong moment. And it's brilliant, it's hilarious.
• 51:24
  JOSH: And actually this is very revealing, I think. What does she say? She makes a Star Trek joke. And what's really interesting is that Star Trek would never risk making its characters look silly.
• 51:39
  JOHN: That's true. Even as they often were silly just by.
• 51:43
  JOSH: They make. They make.
• 51:44
  JOHN: They wouldn't let them be.
• 51:46
  JOSH: Yes. Not in this.
• 51:48
  JOHN: That was the line where, I guess I gotta get back. It says, well, you're about to go where every man has gone. Yeah, that's a great joke.
• 51:58
  JOSH: Yeah. I think on some level, B5 recognizes that you need not take yourself totally seriously. You need to be serious, but not self serious. And you know, as much as I love Star Trek and I love Star Trek, it on occasion is very self serious. Less so in the modern incarnations. Yeah, but yeah, in terms of the contrast and just like the thing that you were saying, it's more real. It's more about connecting with humanity. And on that note, at the very, very end of the episode, I was really struck because it's this hilarious little tag at the very end where Gakkar wakes up Garibaldi in the middle of the night and he tells him to read the book of Jaquan. And Garibaldi's like, I don't speak Narn. And Jakkar is like, learn and leaves. And then Garibaldi is like, he hates me. That's why he's doing this. That's why they're all doing this. They make me crazy and living in these times sometimes that's how I feel.
• 52:58
  JOHN: Yeah.
• 52:59
  JOSH: Like, I am just so tired and I can't believe I'm dealing with this shit. They must be trying to make me crazy because I. I just. I just can't. I'm going back to bed.
• 53:16
  JOHN: Yeah, I'm going back to bed. That. That's what ends. I. I think we get a lot of the writer in that sense in the. From this show is that it's like, yeah, they just must be trying to go for this. And this is also the time in the show when, when it's really season three is when this show really hits its stride. The actors know who they are. They figured out how to produce the show. You know, sort of. They were learning as they, they were. What do they say? They were building the plane as they were flying it or what's the phrase? That's what this show was reading about it. And they're really. They hit their stride in this and that. Characters, lines like that are not just one off, you know, they're not just goofy lines anymore. It's like, oh, but they're. They're also like. You get an insight into how they feel, but it's fun and that's, that's. That's how the show survives. So I hope, I hope, if anything, despite the intensity of what we talk about here, I hope it also opens up the possibility this is a show worth watching even. Even if you're not looking for this particular through line. And one thing I want to clarify is that I don't know that the show gives an answer as to how to deal with it that we don't already know from the books and the. And the histories of this. It doesn't contain some hidden wisdom that we're looking for that has the key to solving every problem. It's just another really well told story about it, which has the answers in it as much as anything else has the answer. So you take for that what you will. Personally, I hope there's a Sheridan out there. I hope it doesn't get to Severed Dreams or Handmaid's Tale for that matter, which is where we seem to be going but that at some point, a show like this says people will ultimately do the right thing. It just may take a long time, and I hope it's not that long for us. Yeah. All right, so next up, we got to figure out the next episode. In this one, I almost. I keep on wanting to hold off and severed Dreams because it's.
• 54:58
  JOSH: I know, but it's getting. It's getting hard. Before we do severed Dreams, I do want to do Point of no Return.
• 55:04
  JOHN: You got to do Point of no Return. You got to do basically every episode that leads up to that now, which is only a few at this point. It's where the pace really picked up on. Whereas we might have thought the show was really good at arc story was getting to get into an arc. It was this series of episodes. Because just proceeding is the Gethsemane episode, which I watched. Brilliant episode on a great episode. And that was sort of meant not as a filler, but was meant according to the chain, because they didn't have special effects ready yet for what was coming. They wanted a special effects light episode. But this. The. These episodes are the train going towards the destination. You feel it in this one every little more. But even I imagine. I don't know what I was thinking when watching this episode, but the way it plays is that you're still holding out hope that you're not going to get to where you think you're going to get.
• 55:47
  JOSH: Oh, yeah.
• 55:48
  JOHN: Characters are thinking it at the very end of this episode. You really get the feeling that, well, with the release of this transmission, that President Clark, this is going to change everything. This is going to change it all. Finally, the dam is going to break. People going to realize what's been going on. They're going to stand up to him. The Senate Oversight Committee will do its job and the military will back them, and so on and so forth.
• 56:09
  JOSH: And how depressingly realistic is it? That hardly changes anything. The only thing that it maybe leads to is they speed up their program.
• 56:20
  JOHN: Yes, it leads to Clark speeding up when he would ultimately get to martial law. And that certainly changes. But. But the hopeful point is that as more of this happens, as. As more of what the evidence that Sheridan releases in this and other evidence comes out, and then the voice of the resistance in later part of the season, it starts laying the groundwork for at least people to know what's happening, so that when the opportunity arises to shift to a better path, they have more of a reason to do it. You know, they may say, well, I'm going to Put that out of my mind right now. It doesn't matter because I can't do anything about it. Once they have something they can do, they can say, well, I do remember that transmission. I do remember what Ivanova said, you know, and that's why you don't stop. You don't just freeze and say, I'll never speak out.
• 57:07
  JOSH: No. And it's important. You hear people a lot these days saying, it's important not to look away, you know, like, you need to see it. And you can't stick your head in the sand and carry on as if nothing. It's like, it's important that what they're doing is seen and remembered.
• 57:27
  JOHN: Yeah. Oh, and I don't know where this will go in the episode, if it's even relevant, but last part of Voices of Authority that we talked about, both the humor and the intensity is what Ivanima says to the first ones when she uses an old school manipulation technique to convince these. These ancient walkers that, well, the Vorlon said you wouldn't be up to the challenge. And she just lets them have it. Rips into them, you know, for being carried, knowing that they could switch. Swat her like a bug. And they very likely would. I mean, that's talking. That authority doesn't come just from power alone. It comes from your willingness to stand up for what you believe in.
• 58:09
  JOSH: That's an excellent, excellent point. That is a really, really good point. And not only that, but she's also bluffing.
• 58:18
  JOHN: Yeah, completely. Completely.
• 58:20
  JOSH: So the idea that, like, yes, stand up, but also fake it till you make it.
• 58:26
  JOHN: Yeah.
• 58:27
  JOSH: It doesn't actually matter whether you can back that up or not. Like, say it anyway, because it might work.
• 58:32
  JOHN: It might.
• 58:34
  JOSH: Yeah. I'm really glad that you brought that up. And that's a really, really important thing. I think you noticed because. Yeah, for me, I wasn't quite sure what to do with that because the idea that. I mean, again, like you were saying, this very old school manipulation technique playing to vanity would work with these. These entities that are so highly evolved, so old that they're essentially gods. Right.
• 58:57
  JOHN: Yeah.
• 58:58
  JOSH: There's something very interesting and profound that you can, you know, appeal to the vanity of a being that, I mean, once again, like, you are an insect.
• 59:14
  JOHN: Right.
• 59:14
  JOSH: Compared to them. And they still can't take a joke.
• 59:18
  JOHN: Still. That's that. You nailed it right there. They still can't take a joke. It's taking yourself too seriously. And if ever there was a group that took themselves too seriously, it was the Vorlans. Yeah. And it seems like a lot of the ancient ones got that and oh, the, the number, the, the episodes that you can go into on that. And the, in the, in the storyline says the very end of the Shadow War where their children again. Yeah, they're just children again. Lorian takes them across to the room and, and that's, you know, we don't know what ancient species would be like, but it's, it's something about that, that, yeah, maybe vanity does transcend time and space, but so does that need to, to connect and feel and yeah, even, even a very scary ancient beings, you know, you can sometimes, I can sometimes prod them in the right direction.
• 1:00:11
  JOSH: Well, you know, maybe a part of the point is, is that, you know, again, I think a part of the story of the Shadow War and the First Ones and the dawn of the Third Age is this idea that they have stayed too long. Right. You know, Lorianne has said, like, you guys gotta move out of your parents house. Like you have outgrown this cradle. Right. And so the idea that they are still behaving like children, like immature children.
• 1:00:38
  JOHN: Failure to launch. That's what it is.
• 1:00:40
  JOSH: Makes sense because they can. This is where they are big fish in a small pond.
• 1:00:45
  JOHN: Yeah. And now it's time for them to go off and finish. And finish the job with the rest. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, if this weren't other times. There's so much to dig into in this show and that's, and that's the, that's the pleasure of watching it is that as it unfolds. I tried. I've recently had somebody else start the show and you realize how, how long you have to wait for to get going. Season one is, is a long season. Everything else, oh man, when you do it is so fulfilling. It gives you almost everything. So, you know, I think, I think that, God, we've covered a lot and in a relatively modest amount of time. So yeah, these. It's funny that talking with you, I find that each time there are things in the episode that I didn't see or that have a different, know a different way of seeing it, but mean even more. And that's, and that's the great part about doing this, which I appreciate so much and just being able to rewatch and experience that. And it does. It gives a little bit of hope. There's a little bit of hope that you know what, the story's been told before in all kinds of mediums and eventually, eventually it comes around. So I guess with that we will sign off for those who know that's coming. I mean. Yeah. This train is going towards severed dreams and then we'll see what the.
• 1:02:01
  JOSH: Quick stop off at Point of no return.
• 1:02:04
  JOHN: Yeah, Point of no return. What's.
• 1:02:05
  JOSH: I actually really like the next episode. I don't know.
• 1:02:10
  JOHN: Oh, Dust to Dust.
• 1:02:11
  JOSH: Yeah.
• 1:02:12
  JOHN: Dust to Dust. Any of exogenesis. I don't know.
• 1:02:17
  JOSH: There is a lot of stuff in exogenesis. It's tricky because, you know, like you were saying, it's like we are living through season three of Babylon 5 in the real world. It's like, I want to get to the meat so that we can. Yeah, yeah. It just feels like we're delaying the inevitable in a certain sense.
• 1:02:35
  JOHN: Right, right. But there's a lot to enjoy and savor along the way, though. Right. Because when we get to. If we do Dust to Dust next, which, you know, could even do a dual episode, Dust to Dust, with exogenesis.
• 1:02:48
  JOSH: Actually, That's a good idea.
• 1:02:49
  JOHN: You know, there's. There's a lot to talk about, whether it's going to be directly relevant or not. I can't not talk about what happens with Jakar. I know what comes up with Jakar, the listeners. That is. That is the point at which the show shows you what it really has at its heart about what it means to be able to grow.
• 1:03:08
  JOSH: Yeah.
• 1:03:10
  JOHN: And that's. And that's where you really get a cool part. And we get to hear Narn singing. It's absolutely horrific. It's great.
• 1:03:15
  JOSH: Yeah. No, there are so many things, you know, once again, like, I don't know how directly it sort of maps on to what's going on in the world, but there is definitely, you know, larger resonances that are broadly relevant. So. Yeah. So maybe we'll do a twofer. Maybe we could do exogenesis and Dust to Dust together. I like that idea.
• 1:03:36
  JOHN: Yeah. Because then we got messages from Earth, Point of no return and then Severed Dreams. So.
• 1:03:42
  JOSH: Yeah, the holy trilogy.
• 1:03:44
  JOHN: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So join us next time when we do two episodes. But we continue that train towards severed dreams and then what comes after, which is just as interesting. So tune in next time to Last Best Hope.
• 1:03:57
  JOSH: And you came up with a great sign off last.
• 1:04:00
  JOHN: Oh, yes. I'm trying to remember what it was. I have to go back and watch it because. Something to do with. Sometimes peace is.
• 1:04:04
  JOSH: Sometimes peace is just another word for.
• 1:04:07
  JOHN: Yeah, sometimes peace is just another name for surrender or peace. Peace of the gun is just another word for surrender, which we talked about a lot today. That's the that is the authoritarian's piece. Don't you want to be left alone? Don't you want me not?
• 1:04:21
  JOSH: Why are you making me do this?
• 1:04:23
  JOHN: Why are you making me do this? You can have peace if you just do what I say. That's the really important part about that line, for people to understand. It wasn't about the desire to fight. It was. And as a sign off, we could even use the line at some point. I have a feeling we'll change the sign off one day to be never start a fight, but always finish it.
• 1:04:45
  JOSH: That's a great sign off. Yeah, that's a great sign off.
• 1:04:49
  JOHN: Yeah. I think that. I think that might be. That might encapsulate all of it at some point.
• 1:04:54
  JOSH: Yeah, no, that's a great sign off. One other thing that I don't know if we'll include in the episode, but there's a line that Sheridan has, and I've never understood it.
• 1:05:02
  JOHN: Mm.
• 1:05:03
  JOSH: He's about to handle Julie Missante, and he's talking with Ivanova, and she's like, do you need anything? And he says, a glass of whiskey, a gun and two bullets.
• 1:05:15
  JOHN: Yes.
• 1:05:15
  JOSH: I've never understood what that means.
• 1:05:17
  JOHN: Oh, I did. I can tell you what that means.
• 1:05:19
  JOSH: What does it mean? It's like one for the whiskey and one for. It's like her and then me. Like.
• 1:05:25
  JOHN: Yeah, no, I think. I think her maid's just like, we're all going out. We're all going out in this one. Like, there's inside.
• 1:05:30
  JOSH: Okay, so. Yeah, so I'm over complicating. It's like, I'm gonna have a whiskey and then I'm gonna do this.
• 1:05:35
  JOHN: Yep, yep.
• 1:05:37
  JOSH: Okay. Understood. Yep.
• 1:05:40
  JOHN: Yep. It feels like a classic line from somewhere, but I don't know.
• 1:05:43
  JOSH: Yeah. But I've never encountered it anywhere else. It does sound like, you know, a classic line from a Western or something.
• 1:05:49
  JOHN: Exactly, exactly.
• 1:05:50
  JOSH: Like, never. Never heard it anywhere else. I never understood it until you just explained it to me. So constantly.
• 1:05:56
  JOHN: All right, I'll see you next time.
• 1:05:58
  JOSH: See you next time.