Latest / Mork Unfiltered / If You’re Only In It For Money, You’ll Fail.
Transcript
- speaker-0: We're really close to I think really exploding on humanoid robots where people are gonna have these in their homes the same way that you might have a a robotic vacuum. You need speaker-1: Need to have a reason that is bigger than yourself and it is bigger than money. speaker-0: She's like, I got a hundred percent. I was like, ⁓ I got sixty seven. I was like, ⁓ this is not good. And I walked onto a plane and I was walking past the emergency exit and actually ⁓ fainted. speaker-1: Who's your biggest learning at that startup? What do you see as the trend in terms of founders' ability to deal with hard issues using soft skills? Welcome back to Morgun Filtered, folks. And today's guest is a powerhouse at the intersection of blockchain leadership and impact. Ali Medhabji is the managing partner at Blockchain Founders Fund, where he's helped scale over 200 Web3 and emerging tech startups around the world. He's a consultant to the United Nations on financial inclusion, a judge on the TV startup series Kryptonites. And a trusted advisor to companies like Quantine, All Rights, and Melody Music. Ali is also a senior blockchain fellow at the NSAD Business School, where he earned his MBA and continues to shape the next generation of global leaders. On the governance side, he served as a former board member to multiple companies in the crypto space. He holds a Bachelor of Commerce with distinction from the University of Toronto and is a Schwartzmann Scholar from Qinghua University. And if all that's not enough, he's also A best-selling and award-winning author of books like Your Guide to Succeed in University, Your Guiding In Getting Into Medical School, and Your Guide to What Do You Do After Graduation, with one of those being named as a USA Best Book Award finalist and hitting number one on Amazon's college charts. Folks, this is Ali Mefjavi. This is More Cun Filtered. Welcome to the show. speaker-0: Thank you so much for having me, Patrick. speaker-1: Great to have you, man. And I know that you are live at in Vegas at CES. So I hope you've been enjoying the last couple of days. I've been keeping track of all the news there. It's ⁓ it's been pretty exciting. What's been the one thing at CES so far that's ⁓ that's most blown you away from the last couple of days? speaker-0: I mean, I think what's been, you know, really fantastic, right? So Vegas CES every year brings together, I think, you know, all of the cutting edge around innovation. AI has obviously been a big topic over the last couple of years. But, you know, the progress that you're seeing in, you know, near real time, you know, since last year. And if you're following so say humanoid robotics, I think it's fascinating to see how much progress there's been. Because I'd say, you know, if you go back a year, year and a half ago, you know, these Things still existed, but they were clunky, you know, they looked wobbly a little bit, you know, they couldn't, you know, act, you know, the same way as humans. And now you're seeing full out, you know, dance party. And and and and what's interesting, of course, maybe that's not the use case you would use it for, but when you see the agility, when you see the fact that it can, it can really behave and move, you know, in ways that, you know, we probably wouldn't have expected even a year ago, I think that shows that for all of these use cases that we're gonna have. So for example, humanoid robotics in your home, doing the dishes, taking care of the house, all sorts of other things. I mean, I'm seeing even discussions right now of humanoids even for nursing homes, things like this. Like these are gonna help to to hopefully save lives, make things better. There's major sh you know, labor shortages in some of these areas. I think this really changes the game and we're seeing and you know, you can see from CES this year that we're really close to I think really exploding on humanoid robots where people are gonna have these in their homes the same way that you might have a a robotic vacuum, right? Or or things like this. Yeah. speaker-1: It's crazy. I mean, I I've been keeping track of the news and reading a lot about the robotic stuff as well. And and I saw a lot of the videos and live demos and stuff. It was pretty it was pretty impressive how how nimble and how agile these things are. The fact that they can do backflips and they can fall down and get back up and they can pick up an egg and actually not crush it. And, you know, it's it's been really impressive how fast it's moved over the past couple of years. But ⁓ but as you know, you know, I th the Morgan Filters is all about, you know, exploring people's kind of career journey. The messy middle of success, why they make the choices that you did. And when when you and I met at the at the NSAD 25th year party ⁓ back in Singapore last year, you know, I was I was fascinated by by your career and by all the different things that you've done because you've had like, apart from me and a couple of other people, you have had like an incredibly varied career, right? You've been an advisor to multiple startups, you've gotten into web three, you run your own fun, you've been an author, you worked at PWC, you've made all these kind of like career pivots and and changes. And so what I really wanted to do is explore a little bit of that with you and start a little bit with, you know, tell us a little bit about where it all started. You know, I I understand that you're from Canada originally, but you know, how did you grow up? Why did you end up studying what you were studying? And and and tell us a little bit, take us back to kind of those early days in Canada and and kind of those decisions around studying and family and and why you decided to to go down the route that you did. speaker-0: Yeah, a a absolutely. So it's a so it's a funny story, right? ⁓ and it's, you know, lots of challenges along the way, ⁓ you know, as as many I'm sure the listeners would have as well. You know, my parents are both refugees, ⁓ from East Africa, so Kenya, Uganda. And you know, not not easy, right? I mean, my my dad came with, you know, the clothes on his back. and just landed in Vancouver as a as a refugee from from Uganda. And if some of you remember seventy two, Idiomene comes to power and and you know, there's an exodus of let's let's call it many, many different races, but a lot of Indians ⁓ were, you know, were forced to leave. Indian descent were forced to leave East Africa. And ⁓ and so my dad basically had to just figure things out. No money, no family money, and just had to, you know, work, you know, all sorts of jobs and and figure things out. And he had originally dropped out in grade three. He was running a a taxi business in in East Africa, ⁓ running the family business to help his his siblings as well, you know, be able to fund their education. And so I grew up with one, the importance of education in general, right? Which is instilled given my dad only had a grade three education, you know, is almost more important for something that he didn't have and and didn't have the opportunity to to to pursue. ⁓ the other things though was was, you know, we grew up in a in a pretty low income family, right? And so I had to just figure things out. And so by the time I was, you know, 17, I probably had a a dozen small businesses that I'd started. And ⁓ these are just ways to make money, right? I wanted to, you know, go buy a Slurpee every day or go buy bubble gum from the store. And so, you know, I had started the first thing I had started was a was a paper route just to, you know, make some money. And, you know, pretty quickly after getting my first check in the mail, I remember I was making a dollar fifty an hour, which is, you know, not even very sustainable because you're gonna spend, you know, probably a a lot ⁓ a a dollar for a a large survey. Now they must cost much more. But and so, you know, I I decided to then and I was very into computers and so I started doing like computer networking for people, started ⁓ fixing and building computers and selling them. You know, and then started ⁓ if you remember sort of the the era of sort of peer to peer ⁓ you know sharing Napster et cetera. ⁓ actually started ⁓ making and and and selling ⁓ you know, movies and TV shows that people wanted. And people just started asking me for these things and music that people wanted. You know, I actually grew a a pretty big business off of that when I was, you know, still pretty young. ⁓ I remember I'd run ⁓ at least four burners simultaneously, you know, making this stuff. I'd wake up every half an hour at night just to actually switch 'cause there was so much demand and have to put in the next thing and and copy the next thing. And, you know, and it was a very different world, right? I was, you know, very young, but You know, figured it out. ⁓ and ⁓ and then when I was seventeen I actually ⁓ decided to and I was very into into airplanes, I was in air cadets, I actually decided to join the ⁓ Canadian Air Force. speaker-1: Yeah, I saw that. You got a scholarship to to join the Canadian Air Force, right? speaker-0: Exactly. And ⁓ and that was a you know pretty, you know, exciting opportunity. You know, I looked at, you know, the Canadian, you know, Air Force as being, you know, one of the leaders in driving aid and driving impact in the world. And I thought that was sort of the path that I'd go. After taking some time to think about it and, you know, over the course of that first year, sort of looked at, hey, this maybe isn't the best career path. I think that Canada's got a lack of funding into into defense, it's got a lack of funding into new equipment. You know, Canada's fighter jets, for example, are from 1972, which is not great for for high tech or new tech, right? And so saw some of these challenges. And ⁓ and so I decided, hey, maybe there's other paths, but you know, still have a ton of respect. ⁓ and so after a year I decided to pursue other things. And in originally then in university, I thought I'd study computer science and then chemistry and like had no idea, right? I just you know, was trying to soak things in, learn things. And, you know, it sort of been a blessing to even get there. I wasn't the best student before that. So really funny story. But when I was ⁓ in high school, my high school principal, because I was not a great student, my high school principal one day, I was walking into class or into the school late. And my high school principal comes to me in the hallway and he says, speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: You know, why are you late? And sort of gives me a whole lecture. And he says at the end of it, you know, you were never going to make it to university. And those actually those it's it's those words are like ingrained, like word for word. And yeah, and I actually, you know, that actually helped over time, not right away, but over time helped to change a lot in sort of my, you know, mental way that I was thinking about things because the trajectory that was going on, you know, wasn't the best. And it wasn't that. ⁓ I couldn't figure things out. It was just I found other things more interesting. I was trying to make money. I was, you know, doing all sorts of other things that I just didn't pay enough attention to school. Yeah. And ⁓ and then, you know, later done the the the Air Force thing, had, you know, good grades in grade eleven and twelve and, you know, kind of picked things up. And then in university was just soaking things in, learning different things, trying different things, meeting different people, getting different insights. And ⁓ and I'd always been very interested in in in finance. And you know, one of the really cool things I'd recommend, you know, any listeners that have kids, ⁓ one of the really cool things when I was really young, my parents actually had a a stockbroker that would come come to the house. He'd bring a briefcase, he'd walk out, it was very old school, right? You'd come in the house, you'd have a conversation and ⁓ And my parents actually said, Hey, we're gonna give you some money, but you need to choose what you wanna buy, you know, for your own stock portfolio. And I was very young and I literally chose Walmart and McDonald's those are two of the only things that I knew at like, you know, being like six years old, right? But I had like started reading the newspaper then at a at a pretty young age and started following it because then I was like, ⁓ interesting, like what's going on with these companies? And, you know, just started reading it and half the stuff didn't make sense, right? But you know, you kind of pick it up over time and So I had a very interesting way to learn about it. And when you think about the impact of some of these things, I think it kind of put in those roots of why I found finance interesting because I started at a young age and had an opportunity. And so if you think about it as a as a parent, right, I think it was actually a fascinating experience. And we didn't have a a lot of money or anything, but even doing that with a small amount of money, it's so valuable. And you know, you pay a ton more for a university course that you're gonna learn a lot less in, right? Even though, you know, and so these practical experiences are super, super valuable. And ⁓ and in university just, you know, decided to go down the road of finance accounting. I remember and you if you talk about, you know, hiccups along the way, you know, my first year accounting course, I I bombed the final exam, right? And ⁓ And I I went from like having an A in the class to getting a 67 as my final mark. So I really bombed the exam. Brutal. Brutal. And and ⁓ in in Canada, you need a a 70% across all of your account course over over university. This was just first year, but to even become a CPA or a CA at the time, right? A chartered accountant or or or CPA. ⁓ and so I had a 67 and ⁓ I actually applied to speaker-1: So speaker-0: some of the big accounting firms for internships after my first year. And ⁓ very rare to sort of get these internships. And I remember going to getting invited for an interview and I go to the interview and I'm waiting in the waiting room and I'm speaking to another candidate that has an interview. And she she asked me, she's like, so what did you score in our first year accounting course? And I was like, like, not so good. Like, how'd you do? She's like, I got a hundred percent. I was like, ⁓ I got sixty-seven. I was like, ⁓ this is not good. And so I go into that interview just not not expecting to get it at all. Right. So all the nerves were gone. Was just like, hey, let's have fun. There's no way I'm getting this thing. Like, not even competitive. And ⁓ and then I get offered, you know, to to go to PWC. So, you know, second year summer, ⁓ somehow got the offer. I was totally surprised. And ⁓ and that became a really good foundational training ground, right? Just having a very good knowledge of accounting and finance. And so actually continued on there for for multiple summers and then ⁓ joined full time with ⁓ with P W C after. And speaker-1: You spent like five years though, right? speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, I so I spent I spent a few years. I I spent ⁓ I believe like three years or so ⁓ between so five years maybe when you include the internships and things like that. But you know, you know, had a really great time there, right? So I you know, I was working in Toronto, I ended up actually moving to New York and and learning all about, you know, working with some of the top hedge funds in the world with P W C in New York and then moved into a pretty unique practice at P W C that was doing corporate turnarounds. And this was like Some of the best training you could possibly have, right? So it's, you know, company has six months of cash left before they go bankrupt, go fix it, right? And ⁓ and you just learn so much because you very quickly have to get to, hey, what's important, what's core, get rid of everything else, get rid of all the noise, and just focus on the core and figure out how to how to solidify that and protect that. And and that was just fascinating. And and when you think about all of these seeds that kind of happen throughout a career. You know, and you think about what I do now on the on the venture front, right? And and if you think about startups, like those seeds are super, super important, right? So, you know, understanding how to focus on the core and what matters and get rid of all the noise is really what's valuable if you think about like a startup, right? It's you know, a lot of founders get really distracted with 50 things that people are telling them or investors are telling them different things, pulling them different directions. You see startups having multiple products, but none of them are making any money. Like, You just gotta focus on one thing, what's gonna win? How do you get there? How do you go etch away at it? Of course, if it doesn't work, pivot. But like don't go work on ten things at once. It's generally not effective. And so these things I think over over my career had sort of helped me along the way. And that was ⁓ you know, pretty, pretty exciting as well. ⁓ very stressful, right? Of course, as well. But I lived in Brazil for a while, turned around one of the largest construction companies in the world, ⁓ which was a fascinating experience. And that and then that speaker-1: Focus. speaker-0: You know, si and simultaneously I had sort of written the the books that we you talked about at the start, but published three books, ⁓ two of the mainstream one on Amazon, the education space. And a big part of that was just trying to give back, have people learn from, you know, some of the mistakes that they'd made, what, you know, maybe it would have done differently had I had, you know, different shots. And of course everything helps you to get to where you are. But you know, I think one of the things is you wanna make sure people make the same mistakes you've you've made. Right. speaker-1: So that's I I wanted to pause there for a second. It's a pattern that I saw throughout your experience, right? Even going back prior when you were at the University of Toronto, you were a teaching assistant, you were always involved in like helping students with different things. I saw that you were also like a a Windows campus leader, like you know, helping people migrate to different different email servers and platforms. And and you worked as a provincial ambassador for Bloomberg. And so there's that was one of the things I wanted to ask you about is. Where does that need or desire to give back come from? And what's been the impact for you? Like where does it come from and what's been the impact on you as a person to always be involved somehow in in in giving back through these various different initiatives, whether it's at school or or helping people with windows or or the other stuff that you did later, right? Where does that come from? speaker-0: It's a it's a really good question. I think I think it's ingrained pretty innately, right? If you think about, you know, even how my parents got to Canada, right? I mean, as as refugees, someone's gotta give you an opportunity and give you an out when there is no out, right? And you get this opportunity to start a new life, to, you know, change things. And that is, you know, an incredible level of compassion that someone showed to my parents to get them out of a a situation where they may not have survived, right? They may not have made it out. Many didn't, right? And growing up, ⁓ you know, with that, those sort of values instilled, you know, I was volunteering ever since I could remember my parents would take me to to volunteer, like probably from the age of three. I'm not sure I was very helpful at that age. But, you know, like just being involved in these things, like going to soup kitchens and helping out, ⁓ you know, helping to give out food and like, you know, raise money for kids that were less, ⁓ less ⁓ you know, ⁓ had less opportunity than, you know, like World Partnership Walk, if you're familiar with that, it's great charity. And these sort of initiatives, ever since I can remember, I think were so important. You know, a big thing is like the world the world's not easy. I think people have, you know, all sorts of challenges. And if you can go out and just help someone else, like that is probably the most valuable thing you could do. And, you know, sometimes people ask me like, hey, what's your Favorite accomplishment, you know, over all of these things that you've you've done. And I would say the most impactful thing to me is, you know, when I had written these these books, so what the first book in particular was a book called Your Guide to Succeed in University. And I actually ⁓ have my email in and in every book and I actually had a lot of people write write to me. And you know, I would think I was like twenty-one and you know, would be flown out to different universities and they'd give out copies to every single freshman. And ⁓ I remember You know, some of the pen pals that I ended up making because people had emailed me. ⁓ and one of them told me, Hey, I dropped out of school, I dropped out of university, you know, I was, you know, considering, you know, ending my life. Things were like really terrible. And I read your book and I actually went back to school. I became a straight A student. I like this over the years. Years of that's amazing. And ⁓ ended up getting an incredible job and you know, she's doing super well now. And it's like these types of things that are just so impactful. And you know that, you know, you had a little part to play in changing someone's life and someone's trajectory. And, you know, that means more than, you know, any amount of money that you could make or any sort of, you know, accolades that you could get because these are really the things that matter, right? And and humanity matters. And, you know, we're in a world where, you know, there's all sorts of different rhetoric around immigration and refugees. And, you know, we need a world in which there's compassion and and helping people. And there's obviously different balances and and different challenges and a lot of nuances. But at the end of the day, we've gotta work together. We've gotta build a better world. And and I think that's the most important thing. speaker-1: How does how does helping you, others help you in the sense of when you wrote these books and obviously having these pen pals and having this having this impact, you know, you you you get the reward, I guess, to some extent from the people reaching out and and thanking you, right? But how does it help you when times get tough to be in this process of helping other people? speaker-0: I mean, I think it's ⁓ I mean, incredibly motivating to be able to help people and like, you know, they the stories that you hear, the impact that and you know, if you can play a little part in some of these, I think it's actually very positive, just like mentally and you know, it's motivating. ⁓ I think you also learn a lot about yourself. So in in the books I actually talk about, you know, three layers of of mentorship that I think are very important. And So one is, you know, someone that is, you know, someone that is kind of like similar stage of life to you, right? And you can sort of, you know, whether it's a friend or a mentor, but like being able to like have someone else that you can like understand and share similar experiences at a similar time. Then there's sort of, you know, what maybe most people consider typical mentors, which is gonna be someone older, ⁓ more experienced, can kind of be wiser, help you through maybe like different situations, more from a general advice or like more long term advice perspective. I think very valuable. But the one that I think most people miss is is the opposite side of it, right? Which is the younger side of it, where you're a mentor to someone else or you know, you have someone that's younger because you're also able to process a lot of, you know, the stuff historically. You're able to, you know, share and understand. Hey, it's almost a way of reflecting of hey, what did I do? What what happened? How could it be different? But like those types of things help you to be better, faster, stronger today. And so I think that's actually very critical as well. And so we usually talk about, you know, make sure you kind of have those three layers of mentors because it is actually very, very impactful. Even if you might not think it is, it's actually very beneficial, you know, both ways. Yeah. speaker-1: But it's interesting because you know, I I get the feeling that we live in a world which is so incredibly self centered, right? It's like you see people on their phones all the time and they go to dinner with their partner and they're both on their phones and they're all self absorbed and you're like, What the frick is going on? Like, why won't these people even talk to each other? Right. And so oftentimes I look at that and I, you know, I'm I can I believe the same as you. I mean, that's why I became, you know, an executive advisor and and and and and a and a coach, you know, to start up founders because I believe in giving back. But What would you tell people who are so absorbed in their own shit, so to speak, to get them to realize not just the value of, you know, giving you some time to help other people, but also how that can help them? Right. Because most people intuitively are dealing with everybody's dealing with their own stuff, right? Everybody's dealing with their own challenges and their own headaches. And so if you then tell people, yeah, why don't you go out and like, you know, work in a soup kitchen or Or mentor yo young people or whatever. They'll be like, dude, I can't even get my own life in order. Like I don't I'm how am I gonna find time to help somebody else? Right. What would what would you tell the person who is kind of like trapped in that in that way of thinking? speaker-0: Yeah, it's ⁓ it's a it's a good question. I mean, I I think we're in a world that makes that incredibly more challenging in this day and age, right? I mean, social media and all these things are just sucking so much time and you don't know where it's going. And and I think it's really trying to get a handle first of, you know, limiting some of these things, right? and I think that'll help because I do think it's actually creating even a lot of mental health issues around you know, around the world. And people are getting sucked into different things, they're not really building effective experiences. Yeah. You know, they're not it's not human like, right? Like like kinda how you're saying you're at dinner, but you're not present, like you're not there. And that's a that's a problem. But I think just start with little acts of kindness. Like it doesn't have to be, you know, ⁓ a soup kitchen or or anything else. You know, just try to find these little acts of kindness. What do you appreciate? What are things like tell people that you appreciate them? Like, You know, maybe you have a dinner and you've got leftovers, take the leftovers and and see if there's, you know, someone that's homeless that, you know, could use the food. Like these types of things are very small. It doesn't even take thirty seconds extra to do that, right? And and these things are helpful. And then, you know, if you've got kids, like I think speaker-1: Yeah, very true. And speaker-0: Try to take a Saturday and and go to a soup kitchen and and and work for, you know, three hours. I think the amount of experience and learning that you get from that is dramatically more in a lot of cases than what you get from a week of school system, right? Like seeing that, seeing those experiences, seeing that like even the challenges that other people are going through and being able to help, like it sometimes helps you in your own perspective to be like, Hey, I've actually got a lot. I'm doing well, like I'm healthy, I'm, you know, happy and And things are going well, right? So these things actually still help to ground you and I think they're important. I'm not sure what humanity is if we're not able to go help each other, right? Like it's we need to be in a world where that's, you know, I think, you know, important and and valued. speaker-1: Yeah, I look, I hear you a hundred percent. You know, I think ⁓ Tony Robbins always says, you know, the secret to living is giving. And and I think it it it once you get down that path of giving to people on a regular basis, you know, it's amazing the impact that it can have on a person. I mean, I remember my mother was very sick this year. You and I talked about it, you know, you shared your your your father's story as well, which I really appreciated. And and just the act of going to Belgium and being with her in her h hospital room for a couple of days had a massive effect on her mental and physical well being. It just the simple act of being present, of being there, right? Obviously in this case it's my mom. So obviously ⁓ you know, if you're a halfway decent son, you would you would be present, right? If if you're if your parents are going through something like that. But ⁓ but I found the same as you, man. I found the same when I when I mentor entrepreneurs or when I get on a call of somebody who's just been laid off at Google or whatever and is struggling and is trying to figure things out. I always take those calls, even though I could say, man, time is my most valuable thing. You know, I have paid coaching clients, you know, I have like speaking gigs and stuff all over the world. Do I really have time to take for this person? And I always find that when I do it, like not only help that person, but I feel really good about helping them. And to your point, which I think is very interesting, is you are also much more aware of what you have and grateful for what you have because you see, because we by default, we compare ourselves to others. We're like, ⁓ my God, you know, actually This person's really struggling a lot more than than I am, right? Like what happened to your father was really, really serious, arguably more serious than what happened to my to my mother. Right. So it's like you you you see things and you you realize that we have oftentimes much more to be grateful for than we realize. And I think that act of being grateful shows up in us being able to confront our fears and get back up when we get knocked down, right? Very often is is that state of grace. But I I wanted to pivot a little bit to kind of fast forward further down your career because all you've done so many cool things. I want to make sure I get to as many of them as possible. So you do like, you know, you do your time at PWC and then you went to like it looks like you went to Paris and you went to PayPal, but you were there a very short time. What happened there and what did you learn from that experience? speaker-0: So I went so I went to NCN, right, for my for my MBA and so Singapore and France and did an internship at PayPal in in Paris. And I think, you know, one of the big things, you know, I I hadn't traveled a lot at a at a much younger age, you know, once I graduated from university for my undergrad, I ended up, you know, in New York and and across the East Coast US and then Brazil. But, you know, it sort of created a bit of that like travel bug, wanted to see the world, wanted to understand more cultures. And ⁓ and there's just you know, there's there's so much ignorance in the world that like going out and actually seeing things for yourself with your own eyes and understanding and understanding cultures I think is is super important. And ⁓ and it was fascinating. Like I learned a ton. Like had never been to Asia right before that. ⁓ had not been to Europe. And so this was sort of a a like really just opening the door and like understanding culture. Worked in Paris, you know, for a short period in that internship, but learnt a lot. Got to work with all sorts of different, you know, cultures across Europe and, you know, it's just fascinating to to see and kind of experience. And that was a great, you know, sort of in in ⁓ in sort of a leading company. And then decided actually had a lot of great offers, you know, when I was lead leaving NCAD and ⁓ decided to go full time into web three. It was like, hey, let's go down this path. I think it's probably the riskiest of the paths. But I actually had a a really great mentor that gave me some really, really good advice. And he said, you know, at a young age you're graduating from NCAD and you know, what better time to go do a startup? Like if everything goes wrong, you have your education, you don't have high expenses, you don't own and pay for a bunch of mortgages or have kids right now. And, you know, go, go, go make mistakes, go try things, go find the smartest people to learn from, but go build something, right? And that was, I think, a really good set of advice because oftentimes people are like, hey, I've got a lot of liabilities still, or you know, maybe have student debt, things like that. Right. But that's Probably the least of your worries at that age when parents are still healthy, you've got you don't have kids. Like there's there's all of these factors that probably make it the best time to start a startup, not the worst time, whereas people think are hey, I've got to go pay back student loans. And so that was actually really great advice. That kind of changed my thinking there and ⁓ you know, did a startup and just I don't know if there's a faster way to learn about the world of fair. But it's just so eye opening and you learn so many things and all of these different domains that you would never touch, right? Like probably not would not have been touching marketing or communications or all sorts of these other areas that you end up like compliance and like all these other things that you end up having to learn and become an expert on and very quickly, right? Because it's about, you know, in some ways survival. And and so you just learn an incredible amount super fast. You make so many mistakes along the way, right? Like Not an expert. ⁓ but you know, it as much as you can find best practices get it it's getting easier and easier right now. Like, I mean, now you've got things like AI and Chat GPT and things like this, but you know, as long as you can, you know, try to figure out, hey, what's the best practice? How do I approach this? Like, you know, it gives you a good, a good start on things and you learn so fast. And, you know, I'm ⁓ you know, ever since then, you know, and I've always kind of had that entrepreneurial bug, but that sort of, you know, was the first, you know, bigger bigger sort of entrance into that. And we'd race three ones of Capital, you know, we grew up our team to forty people and, you know, it was ⁓ a pretty pretty exciting time. And after ended up exiting that, actually I had I had some if you talk about mistakes, I definitely had a lot of mistakes there, but speaker-1: What was your what was your biggest learning at at at that startup? This is global DCX, I assume. speaker-0: I mean the Correct. I mean probably the biggest thing, I mean, was just naive like being naive in some ways. And ⁓ and I I I'd always been someone that worked really hard, right? And I I was probably working like twenty to twenty two hours a day. ⁓ I remember I was in Singapore and if you remember where the NCN campus is, our office was ⁓ right next to it. ⁓ and I lived about fifteen minute walk away and I would just not go home. I would sleep in the office for two hours and I would just keep working. And it was just these things take a toll. And ⁓ I'm six foot. I dropped to about a hundred and six pounds, which is very dangerous. ⁓ my god. And it's really really bad. And I actually I walked on to ⁓ and I was doing three overnight flights a week and I walked onto a plane and I was walking past the emergency exit and I actually ⁓ fainted. speaker-1: That's insane. speaker-0: And ⁓ and I wake up and this girl is kind of screaming and I'm like I'm like landed on her ⁓ when I fainted and I didn't know where I was and it was like kind of delirious and ⁓ and I didn't actually think I was gonna make it off of that flight. Like I was just it was I was like super weak, like it'd been working a ton. I mean hundred and six pounds at six foot is not healthy at by any measure. And ⁓ and I decided I just had to change everything because I was like speaker-1: It's insane. It's ridiculous. Yeah. speaker-0: priorities change, right? Like I needed to survive and change everything. And this like wasn't working. So I actually ended up exiting that and and then, you know, got things in order, realized that priorities in life also include like health and mental health and you know, and I not focused on those things before that, like effectively. and And so reprioritized a lot of things. And I think that makes you better, faster, stronger. And then, you know, that sort of triggered into starting a lot of investments in the in the crypto space, going and backing entrepreneurs, scaling other companies, but you know, still keeping what was important, you know, health and mental health and in check. And but that just grew into then raising a fund, became one of the first regulated web three funds out Singapore. And ⁓ and now we've got north of two hundred companies that we've backed and a lot of really incredible entrepreneurs that are kind of changing the world. speaker-1: Was that was that period with DCX, was that looking back on your career so far, was that the the darkest of the dark? Was that the toughest period that you've been through? speaker-0: I mean there's there's definitely been a a number of of of tough periods. But I I mean that was one of them. Like there there was points where like like that plane ride, I did not know if I'd be alive at the end of eight hours from that thing. It was an eight hour flight and it was the most brutal flight I've ever been on. And it's just, you know, you've gotta you've gotta take care of yourself, right? It's it's not healthy, it's not good for everyone else too, if you're not taking care of yourself as well, right? And you know, there's a there's a there's a big thing like with with startups. I mean it's it's not a it's not a sprint, right? It's a it's a marathon and I didn't necessarily have that fully in check at that point, right? And so you learn a lot ⁓ through these experiences. But that was definitely one of them that I'd say it was very challenging, but I think also from a just a health perspective, I think there's a lot of scares there. speaker-1: And so when you then exited ⁓ Global DCX, how did you go about figuring out what was next? And how did you feel after after exiting? Because a lot of people, whether you're s whether your startup is successful or not, it's like our identity becomes so tied to that startup. I mean, I've run several startups, right? And I remember when when I exited the last one, my identity was so wrapped up with it that I literally remember looking at LinkedIn afterwards and I was like, shit, like who the who the hell am I now? kind of thing. And I I I was just wondering if you had a similar experience and and if so, how did you deal with that? speaker-0: ⁓ a hundred a hundred percent. I mean you you live and breathe your startup, right? Like like we tell our founders, I mean, you gotta be able to pitch your startup in your sleep, right? It's like you're like every moment, ever you're always thinking about it, like most entrepreneurs will will will be able to tell you that. Like it's almost hard to turn it off, right? Yeah. And ⁓ and so, you know, when when I end ended up exiting, ⁓ I think I was really lucky in that, you know, people had called me, they knew sort of what you know, quality we were doing. We had a really good reputation. So ⁓ people started calling me and sort of getting me involved in other things. And so ⁓ I got pretty quickly asked to to, you know, be one of the first advisors to a company called Polymath, which ended up, you know, inventing sort of the term security token and sort of built, you know, what a lot of people are talking about real world assets today, multi trillion dollar asset according to, you know, Larry Fink. ⁓ and so a lot of sort of cool things got pulled into and just working with great entrepreneurs. But Pretty quickly it it almost naturally happened where people would be like, ⁓ if you're not doing that, well then can you help us with this and can you work on this or can you help us buy us on this? And so it was probably a smoother transition in some ways from that, but it was still like a big identity shift, you know, right off the bat. speaker-1: Who did who or who were what did you lean on in those days? Like, you know, when I talk to different founders, they all have like different ways of dealing with stress or or or s or staying on the path, right? Who were the people or what were the kind of tools or or rituals that you depended on as you went through that transition and as you were like trying to figure out what was next? speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I I think I was lucky in that. So my brother had also been involved in the business and you know, he was super helpful. My family was, you know, pretty incredible in that sort of scenario. But then the investors that I had in ⁓ in the company were also mentors of mine, many of them. And so they had been incredibly helpful. They knew sort of quality and, you know, level. And so they were introducing me, people being like, Hey, if you're if you're not focused on this, like here's some things that you could, you know, help out with be involved with. And so That worked out, I think, quite well. And ⁓ and and it already had a pretty good ⁓ you know, when you're running a a crypto exchange, you've got a lot of startups coming to you as well. ⁓ and so, you know, it was almost like a natural pivot in that these startups were coming to you. And then it, you know, you start investing in some of them. And so, you know, started investing some of our own capital, some of our own sweat equity, and just sort of built from there. And so there was already maybe a pretty healthy pipeline ecosystem and it was like similar industry, like or same industry in reality. And so that kind of I think turned out to be like reasonably natural kind of movement. speaker-1: Okay. Are there any kind of like rituals or habits that you would recommend startup ho founders develop or work on to to stay resilient, to be able to stay the course and get through that marathon without destroying themselves and weighing a hundred and seven pounds on an eight hour flight? speaker-0: That's ⁓ yeah, it's a good good question. I mean, I I think you've gotta, you know, figure out how to keep yourself healthy. Right. So there different people are gonna have different rituals around this, but ⁓ I like playing sports and I think it's it's for me a bit more fun than say going to the gym. ⁓ and so sports are are are a fun one. And so I play, for example, like volleyball sometimes. We play ultimate frisbee, we play ⁓ street hockey. ⁓ and so these are these are all kind of fun soccer as well. And so these are all kind of fun things that are are are easy. ⁓ you know, do go to the gym sometimes, you know, treadmill, like these kinds of things are helpful. I think walks have also been really helpful. Like, and that might sound basic, but just walks, like walking meetings, walking and you know, talking, reflecting. Like especially if there's hills. I like when there's hills or water, but you know, the these types of things are just really good just for reflection because, you know, it's it's very easy again these days to get sucked into all sorts of things. And when you like Like oftentimes I don't take my phone on on walks. ⁓ and you just you get to reflect and think about things and even reflect on the day or talk about if you're walking with your partner or someone else. And so I think those have been like very therapeutic. and so and then we're doing like a few other things. I mean, ⁓ you know, think exercises are actually pretty good, like making sure you're improving sleep quality. If you've got a way to track sleep quality, super important. ⁓ and so, you know, that's been something I've been more focused on ⁓ as well, sort of recently. speaker-1: Very cool. Very cool. I think there's a there's a number of valuable ones that I think a lot of people don't think about. I think ⁓ for me, kind of like the meditation breathing piece is key. Like I do that every single morning combined with affirmations. Fitness, you I'm a fitness junk, so I'm a fitness junkie. So I'm in I'm in the gym at like 6 a.m. every day. ⁓ although I recognize that there's days where I we I want to be there and there's days where I definitely don't want to be there. But then ⁓ but then the walking piece is is is is interesting because you know, when I was at Google, I used to do what I called walk and talk meetings. So I would I would I would go, you know, with my one on ones and we'd be like, Hey, let's let's just like leave campus and go for a walk and talk about whatever. And that I found was particularly helpful, especially when you had to have difficult conversations. So I just found the act of not being in a meeting room, being surrounded by trees or nature and talking about, you know, well, where do you want to take your career or why are you unhappy? Or or or tell me, you know, where you're struggling with whatever teammate. I found that like those walks, ⁓ those walk and talk meetings were really, really helpful for people. And and then, you know, asking great open ended questions, you end up getting a lot of information, sometimes information that people don't want to share, which actually comes out as well. So I'm a big, big fan of walking and I and I do a lot of that. So ⁓ very cool. Very speaker-0: One other thing that I think is is fascinating, there's a NCAD professor called Jennifer Petriglieri and she wrote a book ⁓ with her husband called ⁓ Couples at Work. Mm-hmm. And ⁓ there's you know, there's also the importance of making sure your relationship and communication is healthy, but that, you know, translates to business. Like over communicating is actually quite important. And ⁓ and so one of the things that, you know, my wife and I do now, and we've done ever since the the first week that we started dating was You know, we once a week we actually we'll just go to like a a setting. Generally it's like a dinner, we'll go for a walk and we'll talk about what's going well, what's not going well, and what can we improve on. And it's meant to be like a very neutral setting. It's not blaming or anything like that. And it's, you know, it's like this safe space where you can talk about these things and it actually helps to not help things boil over. And in business, it's the same thing, right? Like if you're not gonna talk about it, it's gonna it's gonna boil over, but it's also not gonna get better because you're not gonna address it. And so These things I think are also pretty effective as a as a strategy. speaker-1: A hundred percent. I mean, what's what's, you know, in your role as, you know, managing partner of BFF, you know, it's what do you see as the trend in terms of founders' ability to deal with hard issues using soft skills? What what's your take on how willing are people to engage in some of these tougher questions and tougher discussions? And then how ready or prepared are they in terms of their experience and tool set to do that? speaker-0: Yeah, see ⁓ on on this problem you got like two types of founders, right? So you got the founders where when stuff goes bad, they wanna like, hey, I can fix it. They're gonna like do it themselves, they're not gonna tell anyone, they wanna come out and say, like, hey, things are fixed and things are good, or you know, nothing ever happened, right? That is pretty dangerous in a startup. And then the other side is founders that are actually like very open, and it's obviously a spectrum, but you know, founders that are very open, they want mentorship, they're just like, Hey, this is the issue, like we gotta go solve it and like can you help? You got experience, I you've done this before. That's actually very valuable and actually saves a lot of time. Right. And and I can give you some examples, but you know, we tend to be a very hands-on fund with our portfolio companies. And so one of our internal goals is we want to be the first place that founders come when there's an issue and not as their investors, but as like, hey, we're their partners. Like, let's go figure this out. We're not gonna scold them. We're just like, okay, we got it. What do we need to figure out? What are the what are the factors? You know, what should we do? Right. And in startups, it's just very important. Like there's oftentimes different issues. There's like Founder issues is a common one to to break up companies and it generally stems from a lack of effective communication, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Crazy. speaker-0: But you get so many other issues where just communicating effectively is very important. Everyone talks about, hey, I want strategic investors on my cap table. Like, what's the point of strategic investors if you're not gonna ask them for help? Right. Like their job is there to to help, right? And so people oftentimes want strategic investors, but then they don't know how to use it or leverage it or or or or get benefit from that. And and it it it it's not like everyone's busy, right? Like every investor, like I mean, you know, we've got 200 plus companies, right? I don't necessarily have time every day that like I'm gonna go find out and go to each company and say, Hey, what are the problems? Can I go fix it? And you know, we do it sometimes, but if a founder comes to me and says, Hey, I want an intro to this, this, and this, you know, CEO of a stock exchange, or hey, we're having compliance issues, like, hey, do you have like some partners to to that you could recommend? Like that stuff would take thirty seconds for an investor that's you know, no no like that's gone through that issue before. And so This is the thing, like a startup founder might go spend twenty hours or fifty hours or hundred hours to go fix it. They're gonna make mistakes, they're gonna have to look at a second solution, third solution. Or you go to someone that's done it before and it's a 30 second problem that's gonna get solved. Right. And understanding that and leveraging that very important. So one thing that's very actionable. So on my on on my previous startups, and and we recommend our founders to do this as well, my previous startups, I used to send an update every single Sunday. Okay. And that's maybe a little intense, but it would cover speaker-1: That's a lot of updates for speaker-0: But but but here's the reason. Here's the reason. So cover what's going well, what we did over the week, you know, what's not going well and where we need help. And the key thing is that where do we need help? And there was things that probably would have taken me hundreds and hundreds of hours where I would get an intro the next day to, for example, a CEO of ⁓ a major stock exchange and I would be able to get tons of insights that probably would not have figured out and it had a huge impact. Right. And so things like this where you can go ask for help effectively is very important. So we tell our startups that they should do this, you know, potentially every week or every two weeks or every month, but making sure you've got this cadence because there's just a lot of things where people can help you because they have experience in it. And as a startup, you can't go make every mistake. Like you've got to leverage some of these tools, you've got to leverage your network. to go figure out certain things quicker, right? And ⁓ and these are things that are gonna streamline it so that you can actually focus on on what matters. speaker-1: I mean, you you've obviously you've worked with and mentored hundreds of founders, right, o over the years and and advised and been on boards. I mean, what from your perspective as an investor, as an entrepreneur, what are the two or three things that the best founders just do differently from everybody else in your experience? speaker-0: Yeah, I think there's there's a there's there's a couple of things. I mean, I think it's understanding gaps, right? So, you know, what are you what are you good at? What is your team good at? What are you guys weak at? And then figuring out like how do you sort of cover your flanks and and then you know, go down the road of what you're strong at though and focus on that and build out something. I think there's a lot of founders that are scared to go to market. So very common like getting real feedback, building feedback loops. It's actually a very common trick. on a lot of people. It's not easy, right? Like you work so hard and then you might get people that just don't like your product or give you feed speaker-1: You don't want people to tell you how ugly your baby is. speaker-0: Right. And and this is something that you just gotta get over and you gotta accept it and you gotta be told no a lot as a founder, right? And that's not easy, but you just gotta gotta learn to to deal with it and and take each thing as, hey, how do I turn this into a positive? How do I fix it? What do I do? Right. I think in the other one, you just see it in some in the eyes of some founders that they're just so driven to go build something and go and there's like some innate fire in them on like why do they actually wanna solve this? It's oftentimes like that purpose that allows you to get through those tough times. Like if you're just doing it for the money, and don't get me wrong, there's some founders that do it just for the money and it and it works, but it's just a lot harder to to get through those like really, really tough times, right? And and a startup is the hardest job in the world. I mean, you're gonna have relationship problems, you're gonna be working a ton, you're not gonna spend time with your family, you might have kids that you're gonna spend less time with and speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-0: You naturally have to sacrifice these things. Like it's not a nine to five job. I know some people have said that, but like in no way, shape, or form have I seen startups being a nine to five job. Like you're thinking about it 247, you're working still like 15 hours a day, 14 hours a day, 16 hours a day, you're probably working a lot of weekends. Like you've gotta have that fire and that reason and like that passion to like actually get through those really, really tough times. And I think that's super important where you're just gonna go through walls. 'Cause it's not easy. Right. And ⁓ and that's something that, you know, we see in some founders where you just know they're just gonna gonna keep going and they're gonna figure it out and they're gonna make it work just because they're just so passionate about what they're solving. speaker-1: Yeah, that's that's that's a great point. That's a great point, Ali. I mean, it's like, you know, I do a fair amount of motivational speaking and, you know, I share stories from my book and from all my journeys in in the valley and my own experience as an entrepreneur. And ⁓ in one talk that I give, which is, you know, resilience in the age of artificial intelligence and how to become unstoppable, you know, I have this framework called the five pillars of resilience. And the first pillar actually is embrace your purpose. Like you need to have, to your point, You need to have a reason that is bigger than yourself and that is bigger than money for doing this because it is so freaking hard that if you don't have that purpose, like your odds of getting knocked on your ass and not getting back up again are are enormous, right? what's one skill that you think as an investor and entrepreneur that's often overlooked that you think every founder should master? And obviously there are many, but what's the one that's most overlooked that you think people are not paying attention to that they should really pay attention to. speaker-0: I think actually like most things are actually very easily learnable. It's just how are you gonna go learn it? Right. And so I find that a lot of founders struggle on telling their story because they're too deep in their startup and they're not able to see, you know, the forest from the trees. So we tell our we tell all of our founders they need to be able to explain their company in eleven thirty and ninety seconds. Okay. And, you know, when you think about even the story in your pitch deck, like pitch decks have never raised money. They don't raise money. They get you a meeting, right? And so like how are you going to get that meeting? How are you maximizing that meeting? And, you know, making sure you're getting advice from people. And like there's a lot of cool tools these days, right? There's there's a website called pitchleague.ai. You can go to it. You can submit a deck. You'll get feedback instantaneously. It's actually very good feedback. And ⁓ and it gives you a score on your deck. It's a great tool for founders. And you know, it's like these things were like, how do you actually explain your company effectively? How do you do it systemally? How do you like You speak the language of the investor, right? What's in their head? What are they thinking about? How are you going to make the money? Which is oftentimes like not thought about from the founder perspective or at least communicated. And ⁓ these things are, I think, are actually not hard to do. Like you can master this in a week. And it's like making that experience really, really easy and effective. Right. So we even see a lot of founders will tell you, hey, all these investors are interested, but none of them are writing checks. Like once we share. Some data or something, it's dropping off. We tell our founders they should be following up within 10 minutes of their call with with ⁓ with an investor. They should be, you know, assuming the action items, but you know, they should be sharing a data room that's effective. We tell them five folders should only be in your data room, right? Like don't have a bunch of random folders, make sure it's super organized and clear, like make it easy. And these things just help to think keep things through the process and like keep it effective. And like Founders don't think and they need to be meticulous on these things. They're not hard. Like this is you could master a data room in three hours, right? If if you sort of know what you're doing or at least look it up. But if you don't, you're gonna spend more than three hours and it's gonna be not great. And if you're showing any of these things, like and it's all signaling, right? It's like if your data room's a disaster or disorganized, well, that means your company's probably a disaster and disorganized, right? Like it that's that's the impression that someone externally gets, whether that's true or not. If your deck can't explain things concisely, it means your company probably can't sell either because how are you explaining it to anyone that you're selling to, right? Like it's all of these things that all relate into how do you, you know, really put your best foot forward and just share things concisely and and effectively. speaker-1: So true. Last question before we move to our our very quick and short lightning round of questions. And I'm sure you've had a lot of time to think about this and you have a lot of time still to think about it. What does success mean to you? How do you define success? speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, one of my mentors, is ⁓ David Peterson. And ⁓ one of the things he told me pretty young that I think aligns, you know, even with the way that I had grown up and the way that I thought about things is, you know, the main objective is to go leave the world in a better place than you found it. And if you're on, you know, your deathbed at the end of the day, like you're not gonna regret everything that happened if you can just answer that question and hey, the world's in a better place then Where I started and I think that at the end of the day means success. And that's in like every factor, right? That's gonna be on the personal side, the family side, that's gonna be on the business side. But, you know, I think I think you'd have a lot of regrets if you cheated a lot of people and and, you know, you made a lot of money, but like you're gonna have a bunch of regrets at the end of the day and you didn't spend time with your family and you, you know, didn't do those like all of those things that ⁓ you know, help make things better and help make the lives of other people easier. Like I think you're gonna it's just not not the path that I think you'd wanna go. And you see, you know, a lot of very successful people talk about some of those regrets, you know, towards the end of their lives. And it's quite fascinating because you would think, hey, these are some of the most successful people in the world, but at the end of the day, like we're all gonna go, right? Someday. Like you wanna make sure that, you know, you help make the world a better place. speaker-1: Yeah, I agree hundred percent, man. I mean, ⁓ when whenever I work with founders, you know, one of the questions which is comes right out of my book, which I always ask them is, ⁓ you know, pretend it's your 80th birthday and that ⁓ you have a whole bunch of, you know, people over for dinner and it's like family and it's friends and coworkers and kids and everybody's there. And everyone has to raise a glass and toasts and say something in your honor. And what would you like them to say? You know, it it's kind of like there's the there's the deathbed exercise, which is kind of the more morbid version of that. But ⁓ but that gets people thinking. And so I think that's ⁓ it's very useful to think about that. I think a lot of people don't think about it that way, Ali. And and that's why so many people end up in a situation where despite the money in the trapics of wealth and success, they realize on their deathbed that they missed a bunch of things and now it's too late. So lightning round of questions. Three quick questions, three quick answers. And then we'll wrap up. So my first lightning question for you is if you had a superpower, what would it be? Any superpower. speaker-0: I'd probably say flying. It's maybe. But it's also just like one of those things that's just fascinating where you could just like see and explore all parts of the world or you know, obviously if you could do it as fast as Superman, right? But I think that would be like just fun and explorative and and like very thought provoking. You'd see places of the world that people have never seen or explored and you'd learn so much. speaker-1: You wouldn't have to get on planes anymore? Very true. Question number two. If you could have dinner with anyone in history, alive or dead, who would it be? speaker-0: Hmm. Probably Nelson Mandela. I I think that he's just got such a fascinating story around resilience. and there's just so much to learn that like spending time with with someone like that, I think would just be super thought provoking. speaker-1: Yeah, he really does. Yeah, I was just in Johannesburg last ⁓ like a month ago a month and a half ago and and did the whole bus tour around the prison and all that stuff. ⁓ yeah, he is a fascinating person. ⁓ and last but not least, what advice would you give someone ⁓ trying to find a career that gives them meaning and purpose? speaker-0: I mean, I think a big part of this is just reflecting on what values you have and then finding generally, you know, people that you respect that align with those values and and then, you know, if you can work with them and learn from them, whether it's, you know, directly under them or, you know, on a board or advisory or whatever, but you know, spending and surrounding yourself with people that align with those values that you respect that you can learn from, I think will open up a lot of doors even around those domains that you're very interested in. And I think that'll help you sort of get your foot in the door on on, you know, areas and things that I think and opportunities that you may not have thought about that are all within that domain of things that you really care about. speaker-1: Ali, this has been great, man. There you have it, folks. Ali Medhavji, global investor, author, educator, and a purpose driven leader and entrepreneur and investor, who's who really shows us that ⁓ that career paths are rar are rarely linear if you think about it right. And ⁓ and that also I think Some taking some some takeaways from today's episode is the importance of giving back to others as as a way not just to help them but also also to help yourself and help make the world a better place. Really appreciated your comments on the importance of purpose, you know, particularly for those founders out there, you know, having a bigger why beyond just, you know, the Bugattis and the unicorn valuations and money. I think that's that's absolutely essential. Thank you for all the work that you do, for the advisory work, for the time that you give others, for the books that you've written. And for your focus on making the world a better place. What's the best way for people to follow you, get in touch with you? If they want to pitch their startup to you, well, where where should people find you? speaker-0: Absolutely. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Ali Midavji, or on on X. And you can also go to our website, blockchainf.com. If you want to share what you're working on, ⁓ you can submit it right there. We actually do review every single one that comes through. ⁓ and would love to see if there's a way we could help. speaker-1: Fantastic. Well look guys, if this episode resonated with you, make sure you subscribe to the channel, like or share it with a friend, leave a comment, post about it wherever you want. ⁓ you never know who might need an episode like this today. So I am Patrick Mork. This has been Mork Unfiltered. Signing off, we'll see you next time. And ⁓ thanks again for ⁓ your interest.