Latest / Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast / Author LJ Claren Spills the Tea on The Incendiary, Audiobooks, and What to Expect in The Nocturne
Transcript
- Rachel: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy and romance books, one trope at a time. I'm Rachel, romantasy theorist. Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things dark and spicy. Rachel: And today we are joined by a very special guest, author of the Selvaren series, LJ Claren. Welcome, LJ. LJ Claren: Hello, thank you for having me. Rachel: Yes, or should I say welcome back? It was so fun LJ Claren: Yes. Rachel: talking to you before the release of the incendiary, and we're so LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Rachel: excited now that we can talk spoilers. LJ Claren: Yes, this will be very fun. Rachel: So at the time of this recording, it's been about a month since the release of the incendiary. How are you feeling? LJ Claren: I feel great. I think it's been received very well and that's very exciting for me. I think that with this one, I I I'm very, very proud of the incendiary. I'm very proud of Silversmith, but I feel like the incendiary is really where Ary really spreads her wings and really takes off and we we see how we have a lot more action and we see a lot more depth to the romantic relationship and Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: are obviously introduced to some controversial but Some very entertaining and interesting characters. Rachel: Yes, it really felt like the series exploded in every way in this book. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: Yeah, and that's really how I planned it. I knew that the first book was going to be very character driven in the sense that it's really where Ary figures out who she is. obviously w and and and gets to know Gavin and and where that romance starts. And I knew that it was gonna be that that build up really because I wanted this book to feel the way that it did. Rachel: Mm. I love it. Kate: Yeah, we love it. And there like you said, there's so much depth here. I mean, Rachel and I have been having so many conversations about the incendiary as we do our deep dive. And every time we are on our like videos, we like a new theory comes up for us. You know, like every time we have we think that we have it all planned out. And then as we're talking, something else comes up because there's just like so many little details to think about and spiral over. And so yeah, we are just loving this series. LJ Claren: Thank you, yeah. I this is I mean, I've spent so many years just thinking about these characters and thinking about their story. and so I mean, there are also a lot of ways that I've planted different Easter eggs and red herrings and all sorts of things 'cause I love when people come up with theories and that's one of my favorite parts. Rachel: Red herrings, okay. That's good to know. Yeah. Kate: Good to know. Good to know. LJ Claren: You bet. Kate: So, with the release of The Incendiary and the success that we are so happy to see you getting, we heard that there's some updates on the audiobook for the future books in this series. So LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: there are a lot of these wonderful swoonworthy Smyth quotes that happen during Ary's chapters and We just cannot wait to keep listening to this. So can you tell us anything about the upcoming audiobooks? LJ Claren: Yes. So w this was just something that was decided last week. So it's been a we're a whirlwind development and it's amaz I'm so excited. I probably spent like five hours yesterday just listening to different to different narrators. I think well one thing I can tell you for sure is both Gavin and Elias will have different male narrators. So that's something I'm very excited about. Rachel: Okay. Mm-hmm. Kate: I love that. LJ Claren: And I can't confirm who is going to be narrating yet. but I trust I I we're putting a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of thought into who's really the best voice for each character. Rachel: that's amazing because they are such different characters. I'm so glad to hear they're able LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: to get their own narrat narrators. LJ Claren: I know. I'm so excited. It's gonna be so good. Especially, you know, looking ahead into the series too. It's gonna be I'm I'm very excited for some for some scenes down the road as well. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: Does this mean we're getting okay, well, before we talk LJ Claren: Ha. Rachel: more about the incendiary, let me just give sort of a blanket statement to anybody listening who hasn't read the incendiary yet. This is your official spoiler warning. While our last interview with LJ had no spoilers past the Silversmith, the Incendiary is fair game on this one. So LJ Claren: Yeah. Rachel: if you haven't read it yet, we recommend pausing this and coming back once you've finished reading. okay, so LJ, when you say future scenes down the road, does that mean we're getting like an Elias Gavin showdown? LJ Claren: I mean, I think by when we see the end of this of the incendiary, I think one can assume there's going to be some drama afoot. Rachel: Yeah. LJ Claren: I would say in some form at at least once or twice. Rachel: Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. LJ Claren: Without giving too much away. Rachel: Yeah, that's ver I mean, Gavin made it pretty clear in some of his thoughts about Elias. LJ Claren: Yep. Someone won't be too happy with some things. Rachel: So, LJ, in the incendiary, we learn more about Nyrida's culture and religion, including the beautiful celebration of Reverie. And I just loved the Reverie Ball scene. I love that the gods are tied to seasons and colors. And in the Silversmith, you describe the beautiful rainbow design of the temple. But I was just blown away by the Reverie Ball and this like Rainbow of flowers that we see. So I'm curious, can you tell us how you came up with this religious system? LJ Claren: Yeah, so it's it's funny actually because I knew that there were when I was first brainstorming, really the world building, I knew that there were gods. I knew that Ary was gonna have the power of the gods, particularly elemental. Like that's kind of where it originally started with her in healing. but I was just talking to my husband about part of it, and I mentioned the months of the year. And he is very like very into like Lord of the Rings and those very high fantasy lore, you know, very, very, very in-depth world Kate: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: building. And he says, I don't think you should have a Gregorian calendar for your fantasy world. And I kind Rachel: Mm. LJ Claren: of looked at him and I was like, but like that's normal. He said, I know, but why don't you do something different? So then I was like, my gosh, what if I did like and then that's when I came up with the idea. What if I did 12 and then matched them with the months and then they each have a color and a flower and then obviously when I was brainstorming, I knew for a very long time that I wanted forget-me-nots on the cover of the Silversmith. and so then I just started thinking there's a way I'm sure that I can tie the lore and the story and the symbolism all together for each book. And that's like makes a very unique and meaningful cover of each book, too. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: so then I just had fun with coming up with the different colors and like how, you know, each of the colors matches with like the vibe of the power and the god and that was super fun. Rachel: Yeah. No it Kate: And they're gorgeous. Rachel: yeah, it's beautiful. LJ Claren: Yes. Who doesn't love flowers? Kate: I know. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I told you before the cover is why I read the first one. Like it just stood out as so gorgeous. So I mean it's LJ Claren: Mm. Rachel: brilliant. LJ Claren: Yeah. And that's also been a really fun thing. getting to pick. I mean, 'cause I've got the book three cover is done. and it will be announced. but the like it's really fun thinking about then what I want to do for book f book four and five. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: so that's been really fun. Kate: So we know the name of book three, but are you able to LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: share the associated flower? LJ Claren: I can't quite tell you yet because I don't want to spoil it. I want everybody to see it for the first time. But I Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: you know what I can tell you is that there are two flowers. Rachel: Okay. LJ Claren: mixed together in the border. Rachel: Does this mean is this symbolic of Ary having two babies and not just one? Kate: Rachel, you are reaching girl. Rachel: Ha ha ha LJ Claren: No, it's not. No. Kate: Ha Rachel: Hm. Okay, okay. All right. You're crushing my dreams. Kate: Just take take what you are given, Rachel. Take what you are given and spiral. LJ Claren: Ha ha ha Kate: We'll spiral later about them. Rachel: Okay, all right. So back to the gods. We really start to see Ary uncover her power of the gods in the incendiary. What is your favorite power that Ary has? LJ Claren: You know, that's like there are so many fun ones. I think it has to be well. The elements are all fun. gravity is really cool. Obviously, levitating things is really cool. but I have to say, I think because it just fits her the most is the healing power. Even Rachel: Hm. LJ Claren: though that's the one that takes from her because it's a life force power, you know. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: So that but I think that's the one that affects her the most just in general, but also just she is somebody that gives. And so I think that that is the power that is most true to her. Like I think if she had to pick one to keep, it Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: would be that one. Rachel: Okay. All right. Kate: I was amazed by that one. because yeah, the other ones are really cool, but that one, like literally it brought her back from the dead. That's Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: that's an incredible amount of power. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean ultimately it is the strongest power, I would say. Well, that she's able to utilize at this time. Rachel: Ha ha ha. Kate: Right, because we know Nyxar, right, has LJ Claren: Yeah. Kate: the power to nullify LJ Claren: Yeah. Kate: the powers of the other gods. So LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: I would love to see Ary be able to master that one as well. LJ Claren: We'll see. Rachel: Can you tell us anything about why her healing powers take a toll while the others don't? Or do the others and we just haven't seen that yet? LJ Claren: I would say like with healing, you know, I I very much consider it like it's her life force that's giving. So it's kind of like she's it's since it's like within her blood, it's like the the life force within her blood that is doing the healing. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: whereas the other powers just aren't like that. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: and of course with healing, you know, you're kind of challenging fate or, you know, there's that idea of when you're especially with resurrecting. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: so there's kind of the idea that there's a cost to to it. Rachel: Hmm. Okay. Was there a cost for Ary's resurrection? LJ Claren: Well, for her Well, I mean it took her a long time to recover, Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: obviously. But like she since she she was dead, so like it I would just say it took her longer to recover because it was her own power, if that makes sense. Rachel: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, it's a different thing. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: Yeah. Also Gavin did do that special prayer thing, right? When she died. Rachel: Yeah, are they connected? LJ Claren: The inc well I can't say. I can't say what that was. Yet. Rachel: We're obsessed with that because we c we can't stop talking about the any time that somebody uses the language of the Selvaren. We think that's important. LJ Claren: Maybe. Rachel: All right, I won't I won't probe probe there. LJ Claren: Ha ha Rachel: We see a lot of the lessons that Gavin taught Ary in the Silversmith come back as tools that she needs to survive in the incendiary. Are there scenes or Easter eggs like this in the incendiary that we should be paying extra attention to because they might impact the nocturne? LJ Claren: Like when she like remembers things that he told her and like those kind of come to the surface and help her as she's going along. Rachel: Yeah, like like for instance, some of his training for her in the Silversmith end up, you know, saving her life in the incendiary. So I'm just curious if there's any lessons or moments from book two that we should just be paying extra close attention to. LJ Claren: There is one that you I think you'd have to be paying very close attention to some words that are in this one scene. Rachel: Mm. LJ Claren: something that occurs in the nocturne that if you were to put them side by side, you would notice some consistencies. Rachel: Is it the scene at the bar? In the closet? LJ Claren: No. Rachel: Okay. All right. LJ Claren: No. Kate: Well, Rachel, as if that's the only scene that we've dissected word for word. Rachel: I know, but that one's concerning. LJ Claren: The the Kate: That's true. That's true. LJ Claren: when they're in the closet, the bar closet, the flashback. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yes, and Gavin says that he'll like follow her into through fire and through like yeah. Kate: Like a horde of beasts and Yeah. LJ Claren: Yeah, he's got a way with words. Kate: We take his words very literally, by way. LJ Claren: Yeah. Yeah. You should. There were some things in this Kate: That's what we thought. LJ Claren: yeah, there were some things in the silver I mean, there was a moment in the silversmith that I pretty much told you what was gonna happen Rachel: Yes. LJ Claren: in the incendiary. Rachel: Yes. When he said that he he would claw his way back from the earth or f six feet whatever I don't remember Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: the exact phrase, but LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Rachel: yeah. I can't believe that I caught it on my reread of The Silversmith after I read the incendiary, but I can't believe that didn't stand out more the first couple times I read The Silversmith, because that is an intense quote. LJ Claren: I I don't know that I have at least nobody has come to me and said that they caught that until they went back again after reading Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: incendiary. But yeah, as I was writing it, Kate: Yeah. LJ Claren: I was definitely like telling you what's gonna happen. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Yeah, that one was very LJ Claren: But he's so I mean, he he feels so hyperbolic sometimes. And so I think that that's kind of i i it's it's easy to be like, he's just being he's just waxing poetic or you know, whatever. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: But I was definitely playing with some of that. Kate: LJ, you won't know this until Tuesday when the episode comes out. But we just recorded our epis our second episode, and I literally said that almost exact line. I said, I think we have to take Gavin's words pretty literally, even if it sounds like he's just waxing poetic. LJ Claren: Ha ha. Kate: I said that word for word. LJ Claren: That's funny. Yeah. there's plenty that he says that I mean it might just be him just waxing poetic as I said, but there are other things that might be said intentionally or at least, you know, me from the writer's perspective I'm having him say. So Kate: Right. Yeah, we we do appreciate LJ Claren: That's part of the fun of it and like Kate: it. LJ Claren: Yeah, it's Kate: We appreciate it as as beautiful poetic language, but we're also reading a lot more into it than just s face value. LJ Claren: Yeah, and I think knowing that makes it even more fun for me while I'm writing it. Because I'm like, Kate: Ha ha ha. LJ Claren: they're gonna read into this. Kate: And and we will. and LJ Claren: Ha ha Kate: some of the things that we read into the most in the incendiary were the flashbacks and the epigraphs and you know, the like letters back and forth and seeing the like origins of Gavin and Ary's love story. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: which for Gavin that happened pretty immediately. Right. his he fell fast and hard. and we have been Trying to dissect, you know, the kind of differences between Gavin's immediate reaction to their connection and Ary's. So is there anything that you can share about their bond that they have and that, you know, the immediate connection that they have that impacts that, you know, bond? LJ Claren: there might be something deeper there, I think. but at the same time, I also think when we meet Gavin at the beginning, he is living a very like unfulfilled kind of empty emotional life. And she comes in and she I think looks at him like he's treats him with respect, treats him like he's more than just a blacksmith. she chooses to come to him. And I think that that to somebody that is emotionally starved a little, really affected him and that immediately drew him to her. so there's that. but then obviously this is a romantasy, so you never know if there are other things going on and you know, with Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: backstory and you just you'll just have to see. Kate: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: I think with her i i in kind of a similar way. She's obviously sheltered. and I think that she feels I mean, I think right at the beginning she's a little unsure, but I think he does make her feel comfortable right away. and I I think that those that she's she's also worried because of the things obviously we know that Simeon has probably told her and how he's sheltered her. so she's obviously coming into it with that in the back of her mind too, which probably explains more of why she's more hesitant. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Well, and also just the fact that she's not had any experiences outside the castle really. Like she doesn't know what life is or what love is, really. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which, you know, I th I always f I find it interesting that I you know, I kinda joke that I think Simeon trying to suppress her kind of just set himself up for failure because, you know, like with any anybody, you know, with with raising kids, the more Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: you try to lock them up and suppress them, the more that they're also gonna try to escape and rebel and etcetera. So yeah. Kate: Yeah, we we felt that Simeon's attempt to keep a stranglehold o on his power and his control ended up backfiring in a few different ways. LJ Claren: Yeah, I would say so. Kate: Like maybe how he created the butcher. LJ Claren: Yep. Kate: That was that was a that was an oopsie for him, I think. LJ Claren: Yeah. Yeah, it was. I think too, one of the most important things, that going forward, one of the biggest obstacles that the characters will face is really recognizing who's really the problem, who's really the cause of all of this. and so that'll be something that is very very thoroughly addressed and and one of the main conflicts too for sure for book three. Kate: Yes, very excited. Rachel: I'm so excited for that. Cause I love political intrigue and that's gonna be such an interesting thing for you to explore of how leadership but also like the people interpret what's going on. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And it's definitely you've got thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people that only know one thing and have only been told one thing for four hundred years. so it's definitely a quite a big hurdle to to approach. Rachel: While we're on that topic. Is there a reason that you can tell us that Simeon is sort of like othering the people that don't live in the barrack or in the caves? Like these people that live in like the northern regions? Cause I know that that's something that Elias is sort of like struggling with and how they're really suspicious of outsiders. LJ Claren: Yeah, I think that one, Simeon is just kind of a kind of somebody that thinks that they're thinks that they're really good and, you know, has kind of convinced themselves that convinced himself that he's a very good person and that he's doing good. and kind of almost brainwashed himself into thinking I'm doing all I can and and I think in particular with the people in the caves he's very much kind of take care of take care of my own mentality. which obviously Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: is flawed and I think obviously Elias starts to see that and Ary obviously sees that. we see Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: in the first book. and so I think that that kind of just speaks to his character and what he values. Rachel: Hmm. Interesting. LJ Claren: And obviously we see plenty of that in our own world too. Rachel: Yes. Yes. And creating these Kate: Yeah, yes. Rachel: walls. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Rachel: and seeing Simeon kind of do the same thing. It definitely is very powerful to read the the the experience of like Elias sort of relearning and having Ary there to sort of facilitate that and her walking into the situation and seeing what her people and what her culture believe and seeing like what she's up against essentially. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate: Yeah. LJ Claren: She definitely has her work cut out for her. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: Yes. And despite my conflicting thoughts about Elias, I did appreciate his like the the beginnings of that unlearning, like Rachel said, of you know, he's been conditioned to think a certain way, but he's starting to think for himself. And I I do appreciate that from him. So speaking of Elias, in your previous interview with Rachel, you said that He was the character that you were most excited for readers to really meet in the incendiary. So LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: I'm curious, are the reactions to his character what you expected? LJ Claren: Yes, because I knew, well, first of all, he's extremely polarizing. And so I knew Kate: Yes. LJ Claren: one of the funniest things is when I think I posted a reel about this about it's really entertaining to watch people try to decide whether or not I think or I'm whether or not I want them to like him. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: Because the answer is I think how you sh I think you should feel about him, how you feel. and Cause he's obviously a very complicated character, a very conflicting character. He's got some great moments in the incendiary, and he's got some really awful moments. And those can be difficult to digest and you know, have s weigh side by side. but I think i he's also a great character in the sense that nobody is all good or all bad and we all have conflicting and flawed ways of thinking and make choices that we shouldn't and then regret them. and what does that look like going forward? I mean, can those people be redeemed? Can those people learn? And I think that that's one of the r reasons why he's so compelling is that's also up for debate for a lot of people, which has been really interesting to watch. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, he's definitely a very interesting and complex character. And what's interesting is as you said, like no person and no character is perfect. Like everybody's flawed in LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Rachel: some way. But I think as romantasy readers, we're so programmed to accept that morally gray MMC who is literally murdering people for 400 years, but for a good reason. Innocent people, but for a good reason. So we're fine forgiving him immediately. But then somebody who is I would say flawed in a very average human way, we really struggle with. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and I think it's kind of like the suspending disbelief a little bit. Like we know that there's not actually a scenario where somebody could be killing for any reason for 400 years that in real life we'd be able to accept. And so I think it's kind of like, well, they're not real anyways. So we love them because Kate: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: they're not real and that could never actually happen. But then we see with Eli things that can hap thing decisions that he makes in. ways he responds to situations that can happen and do happen a lot. And that's like more real. And I think that's probably why it's more difficult, to accept. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely I mean, the the scene that I think we're all LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: kind of dancing around here. It it that's the one that really got me conflicted about him. And I do I'm I'm still holding space for him to redeem himself. I haven't written him off, but to your point that that reaction from him, when Ary came to him for help was too well it's like it's too relatable for me LJ Claren: Mm. Kate: to not feel negatively about him. And again, I really appreciate that depth though. I I like not knowing if I like him or not. LJ Claren: I think, and I think, and this is obviously there's no excuse from you know valuing another human being. There's no excuse for that kind of response. But at the same time, I think from his perspective, the person that has the who that he thinks is a monster that has terrorized his people for the last 400 years was just killed. That's what's on his mind. That's what he is like thinking about that like I you know, that is what matters in that moment to him. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: obviously we see he he messes up and he has a bad reaction and he responds very poorly to that. we do see him like regret it within hours too. And so I think like it it again speaks to the fact that we're not all perfect. And like again Can somebody that is in a certain frame of mind make a very poor choice? And can they be redeemed from that? Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: and like, are we willing to see where other people are coming from when they make those poor choices and and give them grace? I mean, that's the question. And like that's I think that's why going forward, I mean, that whole dynamic is one of my favorite parts of the story. I think a lot of people are I somebody even said today, like, I'm Team Eli and I'm like, Well, I guess my question is, are you Team Eli as then you're rooting for him to be better, rooting for him to find, get to a better place in his life and in his character arc and his story, or are you rooting for him for Ary? 'Cause I think those are two very different things too. Rachel: Yes, yes, I said. Kate: Yeah, for sure. I I personally am hoping for a redemption. Yeah. Rachel: Yeah, hopefully nobody's rooting for him for Ary. Yeah. LJ Claren: Yeah, I mean, I I think some people definitely f I mean I I know some people feel find Gavin overwhelming in certain ways. And like I think there are some people that obviously like the bad boy, like a lot of people Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: I've seen have r related him to Dorian. to very Dorian-esque character. Yes. And like said that he's a very Rachel: Elias. He is. Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: Dorian-esque character. and a lot of people just gravitate towards that kind of character too. So it's we'll see. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. I could I so are people finding Gavin overwhelming because of like the love bombing and his waxing poetic as we said? LJ Claren: I mean, I th I mean he's a very intense dude for sure. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: I think I think the thing is though when we see love bombing in certain scenarios in real life, usually that comes in like the form of a toxic relationship where they're actually like a narcissist and they're using it as manipulation. And I think that that we see that's not what's happening here. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: and I think that's also the difference. is Rachel: yeah. LJ Claren: like where he's coming from is genuine and you know what his intentions are. But obviously people are gonna interpret that differently. Rachel: Yeah, I mean I interpret it as he's down so bad for her and he's LJ Claren: Yeah. Rachel: so in love and he's so frequently trying to hold himself back from saying all of his thoughts because he's just like bursting at the seams to tell her what he thinks. LJ Claren: Mm. Yeah, and I Kate: Yeah. And I obviously interpreted it like there's something else going on here because he's so intense and maybe we're both right. Rachel: Ha ha. LJ Claren: possible. I will say some of those questions will definitely be explored in the third book. Rachel: Love to hear it. Were there any reactions to the incendiary that you were surprised by? Like reactions to to other characters? LJ Claren: Honestly, I don't think so. I Rachel: Okay. LJ Claren: think I was very conscious of how I portrayed certain characters in this book. I will say when I wrote the flashbacks, I know we talked about, we just talked about Gavin and being very over the top. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: and I wrote this from a place of like, like I said, he is being completely genuine. And so when I when I have heard like readers say that it was like it's too much or they felt like it's too much, that was a little surprising to me only because I know his intention so well. And like I'm writing it and I'm thinking this is so like. sweet and loving, and from a place of like absolute adoration. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: and so I think maybe that's the only the only thing that surprised me a little bit. But I also know that he is just like I said, he's a very intense guy. Rachel: I mean, clearly I love I love it. LJ Claren: And that I think also that also just comes down to like I think that also just comes down to like what kind of MMC people like the most too. Yeah. Rachel: Yes, exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate: So we touched on this a little bit, but some of the very traumatic things that happen specifically to Ary in this book, but we also see trauma affecting a lot of the characters here. So I'm curious how you go about kind of crafting those parts of the story. Is it something that you always knew would be part of their story, or is it something that you kind of develop as you get to know the character as well. LJ Claren: I will say that the book two scene with the assault and the showers, that was something that I knew for a very long time was going to happen. I think it was important to me that Ary. hit a point very, very low and be able to get back up. And that's what she does. And she's obviously not in a good place mentally. She's absolutely broken. but I think she needed to see that she could do that. And so obviously there's complex dynamics at play with those four men and Eli. and their involvement and relation to the world and the conflict going on too, because we know they're spies for Molochai as well. And I will say we will see them again somehow. and so there's yeah. Rachel: Hmm. Hopefully with their head on a spike. LJ Claren: And well there I think there's I'm trying to think what what to say that's not too much. I will say, you know, kind of pivoting to Elias a little bit, I think we will see him experience retribution, not I mean, against him in ways that you might not expect. Rachel: Hmm. LJ Claren: ways that they were tied into certain things that he wasn't aware of or that he didn't know and that will really hit him hard. I don't know, was that too much of a spoiler? Rachel: No, I have no idea what you mean. So now my head is now I'm thinking through what are this possible scenarios. LJ Claren: Okay. Well then there you go. You Kate: I mean Well, I'm just thinking about Alec Gerard specifically and his connection to Elias's dead sister. So that's that's where my mind went. I think that might come back again. Rachel: Is she dead or is she an Insidion? Insidion? LJ Claren: I don't wanna tell you that. Kate: Ha ha ha. Rachel: I'm still convinced she's the g the one from the si from the silversmith. LJ Claren: I'm d I'm debating whether or not to answer that. She's not. Sorry. I know. Rachel: you're crushing me. It's okay. You kind of told Kate: Yeah. Rachel: me that the last interview too, but I I I feel like you didn't s say it in definitive terms. Kate: Well, clearly Rachel and I have a million theories about where this series could be LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: going. We have been spiraling since we first started The Silversmith, but now with just enough more information from the incendiary to crash out again, we've got a lot that we're discussing. But I know that there's a lot of other readers that have a lot of theories too. Do you have any kind of favorite fan theories that you want to talk about that you've seen? Rachel: Or ones that you are not favorites, the ones that you really don't like. LJ Claren: I don't know there are there are any that I particularly like love or hate. there are some that I've heard consistently. One of them is people thinking that Shera is their child. Rachel: Shera the cat? LJ Claren: Mm-hmm that like their child like like that their Rachel: That didn't even cross our minds. LJ Claren: I've heard that a couple Kate: Yeah. LJ Claren: times. obviously there's a lot of speculation about who the child is, whether or not that they're a baby, whether they're they're dead, whether they're in the caves, whether they're alive, whether they're I mean any of who where they are, who they are. so that's really fun. Rachel: Wait a second, don't we get confirmation in the incendiary that the baby was woken up like a little bit after Ary? Kate: And is like an adult? Or before. Rachel: Or before, I don't know. I I I have to double check the timing, but I thought that we got Kate: We Rachel: confirmation on the timing that the baby was woken up. LJ Claren: I would have to Kate: I th I think we we were pretty we were pretty confident that the baby is no longer a baby and is potentially an adult. That's Rachel: Yeah. LJ Claren: Yes, that is well, what Simeon said is not your child. Rachel: Yes. LJ Claren: So whatever that means. I think most people have interpreted that to mean that they're alive and an adult. Rachel: well wait a second. Now I thought give me something 'cause I thought it was either Lou or Ben, but now I'm like, did somehow the baby get put into Marin? Kate: What? Rachel, we have to workshop this, okay? LJ Claren: Ha ha ha. Rachel: These are not things you're supposed to say to the author. Kate: Yeah, these are I I w I don't even know if I'd call them half baked. These are theories that are LJ Claren: Ha ha Kate: still in the batter stage of baking. LJ Claren: Poor Caz, if that were true. Rachel: That's that's true. You're right. You're right. Alright, no, never mind. It was just the way you said that. I was like Kate: Well, because the I guess it's where wherever you put the emphasis. not your child is Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kate: it's an adult now. Not your child Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Whose child is it? Rachel: Yes, that's Kate: Anyway. We'll have a lot to discuss next time for the next episode. LJ Claren: To me and that cryptic cryptic sketchy guy. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. Who made him? Kate: Yeah. LJ Claren: Yeah. Rachel: Speaking about made, before we move on to our questions about the nocturne, speaking about made. Is that something that we should be paying attention to? Because that's brought up in the incendiary. Kate: That word specifically. Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: You know, Shera, I will say Shera is a very mysterious creature. And they it said that Umbras have unknown magic. that they're, you know, nearly extinct, or they thought they were extinct. And nobody really knows what kind of magic that they have. At least nobody that's willing to tell at this point. Nobody that's willing to say. so I I would pay attention to a lot of things that she says. Kate: Yeah, she's got secrets. Rachel: All right. Yeah. Kate: She's holding out. Rachel: All right, let's talk about the nocturne. So we love that it's being released on Gavin's birthday, July thirteenth, twenty twenty seven. How did you manage to negotiate this? LJ Claren: I actually I didn't have to negotiate it. I was literally just talking to my editor. because we we were looking at July and I just looked at the calendar and I was like, wait a minute. July 13th is a Tuesday and that's Gavin's birthday. And he was like, There it is. Rachel: Done. LJ Claren: Done. So that was really how it went, is Kate: You know, I have to share Rachel: That's amazing. LJ Claren: we were like, that's the date. Rachel: That's amazing. Kate: That is also that's my husband's birthday as well. And I love LJ Claren: that's all we Kate: that my my book husband and my real husband have the same birthday. LJ Claren: Yes. Well, and actually that is the day that I came out with Silversmith in twenty five, two thousand twenty five, too. So that was another cool and like that was my thought at the time, obviously, that it's his birthday. And so when I thought of July, I like, I wonder what day the thirteenth is. I was like, It's a Tuesday. my gosh, like we have to. Yeah. So Rachel: Yeah. that worked out so well. LJ Claren: I know. Yeah. Especially for it to be this one. Kate: So we also Yeah. wait, what do you mean by that? LJ Claren: What? Kate: What do you mean by that? What's special about it being this one and also Gavin's birthday? LJ Claren: Well he's back, isn't he? Kate: Yes. Yes. Okay. So I'm gonna jump because I I had we I had a little theory about it coming out on Gavin's birthday and his resurrection at the end of of this book. So we love the name. Okay, first first I'll just ask Where did the name come from? Because I have an idea, but I'd love to hear from you. LJ Claren: so okay, the name Gavin, which I know people have different opinions on. I love that name, first of all. I think it's a hot name. I do I do in general do a lot of when I pick names, either either the name just fits. So I come across it and it fits. but sometimes there are other meanings. there are different roots to different names. and like different Easter eggs, tied to different names. And I think There's also in my head, there's Gavin is the the true, like the true person he is. Like he's only Gavin to Ary. And to everybody Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: else. He's either Smyth or the Butcher, which is obviously like colder. Smyth is more detached. That's like what he was the life that he was put into. and what a what that's not who he is. Like she's the only one that knows who he is. And I think that's why like that softer name, at least in Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: my opinion, like is is special between the two of them. so I mean I I I did pick his name a really long time ago too. And I don't think that I could ever have changed it. If that an that if that was kind of like multiple multiple tangents, but if that answered your question. Kate: Yeah, no, we love that. And it is I I love when the main characters have kind of that special connection that they only see each other's true selves and like they're the only ones that really know each other. LJ Claren: mm hmm Kate: and so with how much care you put into these names, I'm also curious where the name the nocturne comes from. LJ Claren: I can't say because it's something that will make sense probably at the very end of the third book. And so I don't I can't really Kate: Got it. LJ Claren: explain it without spoiling a lot. Rachel: Okay. LJ Claren: But there was a lot of Kate: Well LJ Claren: thought put into it. and it definitely means something. Rachel: Well, we do have some follow up questions. You can LJ Claren: Okay. Rachel: just say no Kate: Well Rachel: i w if if we if you can't answer them in a in a way that, you know, won't spoil anything. But we're still gonna ask. LJ Claren: Okay. Kate: Cause this this is all just based on information that we already have from these books. So LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kate: when I heard that that name, the Nocturne, I was just thinking about how the incendiary was the rise of Ary's power, her light, if you will, right? Like incendiary light, Ary. LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: so I was thinking that the Nocturne would be about the rise of Gavin's power. His darkness, his shadows, that we get just a tiny glimpse of at the end of the incendiary. But just at a high level, that's what I was thinking, is that LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: if the incendiary is Ary's Rise. Is the nocturne his? LJ Claren: That's actually not it. It's far, far more complic complicated than that. Rachel: Okay, well, LJ Claren: That's all I can say. Rachel: no, I have more. LJ Claren: Okay. Rachel: So I obviously looked up the definition of the word nocturne, which is a dreamy, pensive, or romantic work of art or music that is inspired by or suggests the night. And as we've told you, we have a lot of half-baked theories about Ary's connection with Nyxar, the god of celestial night. Despite the fact that he's associated with dark and shadows, Ary finds comfort in this god. So is there a connection between Nocturne and Nyxar? LJ Claren: Possibly. Rachel: Maybe we finally see Ary be able to turn that lever on the wheel. LJ Claren: We'll see. Rachel: All right, we'll get off this topic. We'll Kate: Ha ha. Rachel: will we meet Ary and Gavin's child in the nocturne? LJ Claren: Yes. but in a way that the reader might figure it out before the characters do. Rachel: Have we met them already? LJ Claren: I'm not gonna answer that. Kate: Yeah, Rachel Rachel: That's fair, that's fair. All right, I'm done. LJ Claren: What? Kate: We want LJ to come back. We don't want to scare her off by asking too many questions. LJ Claren: I'll c I'll come back. Kate: So pivoting a little bit to one of my favorite topics. we are, I think collectively as readers, still on the edge of our seats, patiently, or in my case, not so patiently, waiting for like a full spicy scene from Gavin and Ary. I want that detail. And I know personally, I have some high hopes for their reunion. That I'm hoping to see in the nocturne. Is that something that we can expect? Can we get are we gonna be getting any spicy scenes? LJ Claren: The third book is quite spicy. I will say it is it is a slow burn. I wouldn't be me if it wasn't. Rachel: I mean we're already in a slow burn. Kate: Yeah. Fair enough, but but I'm I'm excited. That's very exciting for me. Rachel: That's great. I saw you posted something to your stories recently of people, like some beta readers reading it, and it sounded like they were really into the spice. LJ Claren: Yes, I would say they were. Rachel: Ha ha ha. Kate: What a gift. Thank you. LJ Claren: You're welcome. Rachel: Beyond Ary and Gavin, are there any other love stories that will start to unfold? LJ Claren: That is yes. Mm-hmm. Rachel: That's exciting. So LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Rachel: do we get eventually spice from other characters as well? Haven't decided yet. LJ Claren: Yeah, it's complicated. I would say I would say the majority I would say I I would say that I do plan on expanding things even after the five books. Kate: Ooh. Rachel: That's very exciting. Kate: Spin-offs. I love it. LJ Claren: So as far as spice goes, I would say the majority of the spice may be between two characters in the five books. But definitely not ruling out anything beyond that. Kate: I love that. I love that for us. LJ Claren: Yeah. Rachel: Yeah. So this next question, I'm realizing I hope that it doesn't sound like a follow-up to the Gavin and Ary's child question, but I'm curious when it comes to POV chapters, have we met all of the characters that are kind of like a main focal point, or will new characters continue to be introduced? LJ Claren: at this point I think there aren't yeah. I would say at this point at the end of book two you've met just about everybody that is a main character. Rachel: Right? Kate: Nice. So if we've met most of our main characters then, is there anyone that we don't have to be worried about dying by the end of the series, or do we have to be terrified for all of them? LJ Claren: See, I could change my mind, so don't know if I wanna say. I mean, there are some people that I'm I'm Kate: Okay. LJ Claren: quite confident that I'm I won't kill. there are some that I know I'm going to. I'm not gonna kill the cat. Rachel: thank God. Kate: Okay, you know what? Honestly, that's enough. That's enough for me. Rachel: Yeah. LJ Claren: I know I I got people or the animal deaths in book one. Well, first of all, the chickens, which I know, Rachel: Ugh Daisy and Penny. Kate: yeah. Mm. LJ Claren: but I okay. I I live in Iowa and my mom's a farm girl. So when everybody's freaking out about the chickens, I'm like, what did you think was gonna happen to them eventually? My grandpa my grand Kate: would they have preferred to see Ary starve rather than eat chicken? LJ Claren: Well, and the horse was very sad, I know, but that was also kind of metaphorical too. Kate: All right, so to round things out, I would I just would like to ask if there's anything else that you would like to share with us about where this series is going, whether it's the next story in the nocturne or just in general, anything else that you can share? LJ Claren: I would say, when I first started writing this series, Gavin and Ary in the first book, the first book is very central to them. and I will say that the world has expanded and has continued to expand. and other characters have become very important to me. I think more than I even expected. And like, while this is Gavin and Ary's story, I think you'll see a lot more layers. come into play. And that's kind of why like this is also a slow burn series. I mean, I one thing that I I don't want to do is I don't want to draw out, I don't like like the back and forth of a romance like drawn out. I think characters should learn their lessons and develop. And Rachel: Mm-hmm. LJ Claren: the conflict coming comes in other ways. And so I will say I'm very excited for you to see that in like dynamics change between characters and and grow. and that that's ultimately what the series is about too, is all of the characters. so I'm I'm super excited for that. But it it's it's Gavin and Ary's story, but it also has become so much more Rachel: this is so exciting. Kate: I know. Rachel: Well, thank you so much for joining us, LJ. We obviously can't wait for the nocturne and we will clearly be spiraling about all of our theories until then. Where can our listeners find you and the Selvaren books? LJ Claren: I am well I'm on Instagram at LJ Claren. that's really I'm I'm on threads I'm not super active on there. and I'm not on TikTok. So the the main the main hub to find me would be Instagram, which I mean I think you guys know I'm very active on there. I try to post like every day. and as far as the books, they are available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, but also at a lot of indie bookstores across the country. And you can get signed editions of both the Silversmith and the Incendiary at Shelf Love Des Moines. Rachel: Amazing. And we'll see you at Romantasy BookCon in Orlando later this week when this episode LJ Claren: Yes. Yes. Yes. Rachel: comes out. Yeah. LJ Claren: Yeah. I'm super excited. I'm really looking forward to RomantasyCon. It'll be my first, like I did have I was in Booked in Des Moines last week or this will be have been a couple weeks ago when this at the end of September and it was super fun and I know RomantasyCon is gonna be huge and so I'm like got really excited thinking about all the little things that I'm gonna bring or do and s we're gonna get to see everybody there. So I'm very excited. Rachel: Will you have the big boy for purchase? Like art prints for purchase? LJ Claren: I will have art prints, yes. what you when you mean the big boy? Like which one? are are you looking for a specific art print? Rachel: I specifically call it the big boy. It's the one of Gavin. I've been using it in like every video that I possibly can. The one of Gavin by Wendy, where LJ Claren: Mm. Rachel: he's just like yoked. LJ Claren: I I would have to ask Chelsea, my wonderful PA, if we ordered that one. but we probably should have that one for purchase. Yeah. Kate: It's a good one. Rachel: I keep joking and I'm like only half joking that I really want like a massive portrait size one for my office. LJ Claren: Or that cutout of Kahn that Sarah A Parker has. Rachel: Yes. LJ Claren: Yeah. That's something that I think eventually I'll strive to have something like that and just take it place to place with Rachel: Yes, you need it. Kate: I mean, if you want to draw people in, LJ Claren: Mm-hmm. Kate: Gavin can do that. Rachel: Yeah. LJ Claren: Yeah. Rachel: Well, for those of you listening, if you want more Selvaren content, we're currently deep diving the incendiary. Those episodes drop on Tuesdays through November 3rd. And we also have a completed four-episode deep dive of the Silversmith and a previous interview with LJ. And if you'd like to connect on social media, you can find us at Deep Trope Podcast on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. All right, see you soon. Kate: Bye. LJ Claren: Bye.