Latest / Communication Breakdown / Strategic Fidgeting—When Everything’s Important, and Nothing’s Urgent
Transcript
- 0:00Welcome back to Communication Breakdown, a weekly podcast from the Observatory on Corporate
- 0:07Reputation.
- 0:08Thanks for joining us.
- 0:09I'm Steve Dowling in Silicon Valley.
- 0:12And I'm Craig Carroll in New York City.
- 0:14Each week, Steve and I take a look at strategies companies are using the shape headlines and
- 0:18sometimes save their skins.
- 0:21Supposed game show for PR pros.
- 0:23This week, while you might be working twice as hard in July, just to avoid the discomfort
- 0:29of waiting, renaming the behaviors, killing the fake urgency and finding real ways to make
- 0:34next quarter easier on ourselves.
- 0:39Break out the sunscreen.
- 0:40Turn on the air conditioner.
- 0:41Summer is here.
- 0:42Conventional wisdom says executives are on vacation and consumer audiences are reading
- 0:47books at the beach rather than newspapers or blogs.
- 0:51Your next major comms activities are probably in the fall, which feels over the horizon
- 0:55right now.
- 0:57And sometimes the quiet can be unnerving.
- 1:00Craig, we were talking earlier this week and you coined the term strategic fidgeting, which
- 1:05really resonated with me.
- 1:07Explain what it is and why it's important.
- 1:09Well, first of all, for all disclosure, I'm not sure I can take credit for quining it.
- 1:13I think I might have stolen it either from my subconscious or possibly from a group chat
- 1:18I was kicked out of.
- 1:20But yeah, strategic fidgeting is the name I gave to that moment when senior leaders can't
- 1:26sit still.
- 1:27There's no fire to put out.
- 1:29There's no urgent deliverable, but the engine is still running.
- 1:32So you end up start tinkering.
- 1:34You're rethinking your org charts.
- 1:36You're reframing narratives.
- 1:38You're initiating projects that maybe don't need to happen yet.
- 1:41And it's not always unproductive.
- 1:43Sometimes it surfaces something useful, but it's important to recognize impulse.
- 1:47You're not doing it because the business demands it.
- 1:50You're doing it because you can't tolerate stillness.
- 1:53The trick is knowing when you're thinking ahead and when you're just rearranging the furniture
- 1:57to feel like you're moving.
- 1:59So fidgeting isn't just nervous energy.
- 2:02It could also be a strategic asset if you know how to channel it.
- 2:05But first let's name where it starts because before we can turn restlessness into strategy,
- 2:11you have to admit what this moment actually feels like.
- 2:14So let's just talk about the moment we're in.
- 2:16It's June, schools out, kids are home, where everyone else is kids are home.
- 2:22The inbox is quieter, the calendar isn't quite as brutal and yet somehow everything still
- 2:27feels heavy.
- 2:28You know, you don't have the major campaign this week.
- 2:30You're not facing a crisis, but that doesn't mean that you're at peace.
- 2:33You know, you're just carrying a different kind of pressure, the ambient weight of everything
- 2:37that still matters, but you can't be forward on it right now.
- 2:41You know, the CEOs out, your general counsel somewhere between Tuscany and a signal dead zone
- 2:47and your team is half on, half out and you know, in between being in Savannah for the seminar
- 2:54or being at can, you're left holding all the important but not urgent things.
- 3:00The brand narrative rewrite, the DEI narrative, the stakeholder engagement plan, so the Q4 campaign
- 3:06reset.
- 3:07None of it's on fire, but all of it matters.
- 3:09And if we're being honest, you're tired, you're tired of carrying the way to things that
- 3:13won't move without the people who aren't here to help you and you know, you're just tired
- 3:18of feeling like you should be doing more, but also wishing you could do less.
- 3:22Sort of the summer slowdown paradox, no pressure, no drama to deadlines and yet still no peace.
- 3:27Yeah, I've never been to Savannah or Cann, but I can relate because once you've worked
- 3:34and once you're used to working in a fast paced high pressure environment and then suddenly
- 3:38there's nothing on fire, I think there's this instinct that kicks in and you say, I should
- 3:42be doing something right now.
- 3:44If nothing seems urgent, if my phone isn't ringing off the hook, I must be missing something.
- 3:50And this is an especially heightened response if you've ever over the course of your career,
- 3:55like missed something, which of course everybody has.
- 3:58So someone like me anyway, you never, ever want to miss something.
- 4:02Again, your instinct is to smother every issue.
- 4:06And so this phenomenon that you're describing, I think a lighter way of looking at it might
- 4:09be is that you're the dog who caught the car.
- 4:12You've reached the end of your to-do list.
- 4:14This is a goal that we never really expect to achieve, but here you are and it feels weird.
- 4:23A solution or at least one way to try to think about this as I found is to set goals.
- 4:28Set goals for yourself.
- 4:29Set deadlines if you need to.
- 4:30If that's what's going to motivate you, if you can zoom out and really take the opportunity
- 4:35to assess the challenges that your org or your company faces, you can find the urgency.
- 4:41Trust me, like if you're the type who thrives in that environment, you can find some urgency
- 4:47to motivate yourself.
- 4:49It's a different pace and maybe it's a different mindset because of the slower pace, but I think
- 4:54once you start putting effort into it and maybe when you have other people from your team,
- 4:58then invested in it, the exercise of setting those priorities, having the space as you say
- 5:03to really achieve some things you've been wanting to do, that can be really healthy.
- 5:07Yeah.
- 5:08Sometimes that discomfort doesn't show up as panic, it shows up as activity.
- 5:12You're not in crisis mode, but you're not exactly still either.
- 5:16You start tweaking things, revisiting plans, poking it projects that aren't broken, just
- 5:20to prove to yourself that you're moving.
- 5:24That's where this idea of strategic visioning comes in.
- 5:27It's I.K.O.S. It's not drift, it's something else entirely, and I think we all do it to some
- 5:31degree.
- 5:32Let's talk about what happens when you're a senior executive in the middle of slowdown.
- 5:37There's no external pressure, there's no urgent deliverables, just that steady hum of the
- 5:43important but stalled work.
- 5:45You don't disengage, you don't rest, you fidget.
- 5:48Again, you revisit the team structure.
- 5:50Again, you reframe the brain narrative.
- 5:53Again, you start mapping out that re-orick that no one's asking for, no one's ready for.
- 5:58You don't need to do any event now, but it's the quiet, I think, that makes everybody restless.
- 6:02So that's where the idea of strategic visioning came in.
- 6:06At a certain level, such as common, it's inevitable.
- 6:09It's sort of your brain-to-wave saying, "I need to move, but I don't know where yet."
- 6:13It might be subconscious pattern recognition, might be the residue of months in crisis mode,
- 6:19or might just be boredom disguised as vision.
- 6:23Sometimes visioning helps.
- 6:24It serves as tension, you haven't fully named yet, but left unchecked.
- 6:28It can also send your team spending on things that they don't need to be fixing, or
- 6:31creating work with no business case, or a road in clarity in a moment that calls for restraint.
- 6:36I think the challenge is knowing when you're steering and when you're just shifting the
- 6:41wheel so that you don't feel still.
- 6:43Yeah, I think that dynamic that you're talking about, the urge to always be busy.
- 6:50In a way, it's kind of a crutch, right?
- 6:53A lot of times, reactive issues are an easy and, let's admit it, an appealing distraction.
- 6:59They're a shiny object.
- 7:01And psychologically, they offer you this promise of, hopefully, instant gratification, right?
- 7:07The task is laid out for you.
- 7:10And I think of it as like the old carnival game Wacomole.
- 7:12Remember that one?
- 7:14That's the appeal, right?
- 7:15You spot the rodent.
- 7:16It pops up and you know what to do with the mallet, right?
- 7:19So I think that that's the sort of reward system that we get trained on when you're
- 7:25used to dealing with crises or urgent deadlines and things like that.
- 7:29And I think also you know or you tell yourself you'd like to think that we do our best work
- 7:35under pressure, right?
- 7:36There's some glory to that.
- 7:38And so if you find yourself creating pressure artificially to motivate yourself, I think that's
- 7:45the time when you need to step back and get some better perspectives.
- 7:49And I believe over the very long term, like over the arc of a career, the longer campaigns
- 7:56are where you can feel a bigger, maybe deeper sense of accomplishment.
- 8:00It's just that it takes longer.
- 8:04And I say that as someone who has spent probably the majority of his career playing Wacomole.
- 8:09So here's a question for you.
- 8:11What's the signal that you've learned to watch for yourself that says this isn't clarity,
- 8:15it's just restlessness?
- 8:18For me, whether it's myself or some other, you know, team member or organization, for
- 8:24me, the red flag is complexity.
- 8:27When we feel we need to be busy or if someone else, you know, needs us to know that they're
- 8:33busy, I think that there's an instinct to like just start adding stuff, right?
- 8:40Even if it's just like it's sort of like a math problem where you have to show your work.
- 8:44But there's this really, really valuable work in making things simple.
- 8:49And I think that's especially true in storytelling.
- 8:52And especially in setting strategy.
- 8:55And focus takes work in the end.
- 8:57If you're successful, you get something simple and clear, but that may not look like a lot
- 9:02of work, right?
- 9:03Oh my God.
- 9:04Simple does not mean easy for sure.
- 9:05Right.
- 9:06But I think that when you think about deliverables and you think about a team member that really wants,
- 9:11you know, their manager, their superior, whatever, to know that they've done the work, I think
- 9:17that that's when I look for the complexity.
- 9:20And like, so I try to separate volume from the value of simple, clear, confident message
- 9:28that's going to resonate like that's a lot more valuable than noise and complexity.
- 9:33And again, the like showing your work aspect of it, you know, even though people think that
- 9:37reflects a lot of work.
- 9:39That's one to remember value, not volume.
- 9:42Okay.
- 9:43So, you know, what you're describing here is the discipline to resist the performance of
- 9:49work, you know, that instinct that we all have to equate effort with impact, especially when
- 9:55things are slow, which brings us to another form of strategic fidgeting, you know, not adding
- 10:00complexity, but cycling through it.
- 10:03And you know, the habit of checking dashboards, scrolling slack threads, bouncing between platforms,
- 10:10checking news reports one more time, just to feel connected to something.
- 10:14Or maybe we should say checking linked in one more time.
- 10:17You know.
- 10:18It's not just the complexity for others to see, it's the complexity that we keep feeding
- 10:23ourselves, you know, it looks like vigilance, it feels like leadership, but we're often
- 10:28not.
- 10:29It's just what we're calling room scrolling.
- 10:32And so let's talk about that.
- 10:34What room scrolling looks like and white so hard to stop.
- 10:39Yeah.
- 10:40I equate this to, this is an analogy that's going to become harder and harder as we all
- 10:45hopefully are driving electric cars, but you think of the old combustion engine and if you're
- 10:50in third gear on the highway, if you're in second gear on the freeway, like you are doing
- 10:56a ton of cycles and you are really over working.
- 11:00And I think that the skill building here is to get into fourth and fifth gear.
- 11:05So you feel more like you are cruising and you can perform at the level that you want
- 11:11to without so many cycles.
- 11:15One way that I like to think of it is to pull back before you reach an extreme, it's really
- 11:22hard and you might not even want to let anybody know that you're doing it, but the advice
- 11:27that I've given people is when you're full throttle or heading towards full throttle, you
- 11:32increase your chances of making mistakes.
- 11:34So creating those cycles is not a good strategy and I think you could burn yourself out, you
- 11:41can push somebody else too hard.
- 11:43And you lose perspective.
- 11:45And so I think that just at the other same thing at the other end of the spectrum, that's
- 11:49when you miss things or you let them slip.
- 11:51I think the healthier state, and this is not always achievable, but it's like not the middle,
- 11:56but 90% instead of 100% because I think if we're honest and like for a lot of us, 100%
- 12:05to us is like 110% in any other situation.
- 12:09And so 90% to you might feel like 100% to us.
- 12:12And at the other end of the spectrum, 25 or 30% effort to us probably feels like zero.
- 12:19And so I think of it as like holding back at the high end of the, continue the metaphor
- 12:25of the techometer, like before you hit the red, back off a little because you're doing
- 12:30yourself and your team a service by maintaining a manageable level of strain.
- 12:38Yeah.
- 12:39What's the saying?
- 12:40Sometimes good is good enough.
- 12:41I know we sometimes carry it too far, the other extreme.
- 12:45I don't look at it just honestly.
- 12:46I don't look at it as compromising on the outcome or the quality.
- 12:50Oh, absolutely right.
- 12:51Yeah.
- 12:52I think it's just about how hard you push to get there and recognizing that your instinct
- 12:57may be, as you talk about room scrolling, your instinct, maybe to just keep going over
- 13:02it more and more and more.
- 13:04And you really don't need to, if you're good enough, and if you're in that role, I think
- 13:08that you probably are.
- 13:10We have around our house, we have the saying that we've adapted from the safety announcement
- 13:15on the airplane.
- 13:16You know, they say in case of an emergency, when you know the oxygen mask, they say put your
- 13:20own mask on first and you the first time you hear that, you're like, oh my god.
- 13:24Why would you?
- 13:25But then you think like, if you don't have your own mask on, like you're not doing anybody
- 13:27any good.
- 13:28So I think that training yourself to not overdo it, looking at a problem and going, I've
- 13:34spent enough time on this.
- 13:36Like, you know, time to move on to something else is a really critical time management principle.
- 13:42I think part of it also is that we've all been taught to separate performance from outcomes
- 13:47and for good reason.
- 13:48You know, it keeps us focused on what we can control, especially when the outcome is uncertain.
- 13:53But here's where it gets tricky.
- 13:55We treat that separation like it's a straight line.
- 13:58You know, the more performance, the better the outcome and that's not always true.
- 14:03Sometimes we hit the result at 40 or 60% performance and pushing it to 80, 90 or 100% performance
- 14:09I can actually get in the way.
- 14:11That's something a Marshall Goldsmith would talk about that, you know, more performance
- 14:15doesn't always mean better outcomes.
- 14:17Sometimes the wind comes from backing off, simplifying, creating space and not from turning
- 14:22every dial up to the max.
- 14:23So I think the challenges that just staying in motion, it's knowing when to stop pushing
- 14:28and let the outcome land.
- 14:30Well, this may be tangential to, you know, what you've been thinking about here, but I think
- 14:34that sometimes when we think about coming at a problem, we have in mind the way we want
- 14:41to achieve it, right?
- 14:42Whereas you're looking for an outcome.
- 14:44And I think that if you get locked into that, that that it becomes problematic.
- 14:49It becomes problematic for you, but in more cases, it probably becomes problematic for your
- 14:52team because really you should be open to, you know, other ways of achieving it.
- 14:58And I'm trying now to apply this to what, you know, what you've been talking about, but
- 15:03the broader point here I think is it's about breaking out of habits, like habits in time
- 15:10management, habits in how we, you know, what our expectations are for productivity.
- 15:17Again, not lowering anybody's standards or expectations, but really just about how you
- 15:23come at it.
- 15:24And I think ideally if you change the way you come at work during the high pressure times,
- 15:32if you can, then that makes these low pressure times seem a little less anxiety inducing.
- 15:39Okay.
- 15:40Well, let's talk about a subtle leadership reflex that shows up during these slow cycles,
- 15:45especially times like now during the summer.
- 15:48It's another type of strategic fidgeting, which I'm calling urgentsifying, urgentsifying meaning,
- 15:55making it urgent.
- 15:56Yes, that's it, right?
- 15:57Making it urgent, it's, you know, it's when we manufacture urgency around tasks that aren't
- 16:03truly urgent just to avoid the discomfort of stillness.
- 16:07Now, we don't call it that.
- 16:09What we do call it is getting ahead or showing momentum, but for honest, right, we're just
- 16:14really just filling the quiet, you know, you know, we've all done it.
- 16:17You know, drafted a strategy memo from, from meetings that don't need to exist or we push
- 16:22a narrative refresh while half your team is on vacation or we launch prep work for a cross-functional
- 16:28project that no one's ready for.
- 16:31And out of it's wrong is just, you know, mis-timed, you know, the urgency isn't coming from
- 16:35the business that's coming from us.
- 16:37And here's a catch, urgentsifying looks like good leadership.
- 16:40It's structured, it's proactive, it gets praised, but at the same time, it drains resources
- 16:46that creates confusion.
- 16:47It fills the runway with motion that doesn't lead to movement.
- 16:51And sometimes what this is already saying you can do is match the moment, not by doing
- 16:55more, but by resisting the urge to create problems just so you can solve them.
- 17:00Yeah.
- 17:01I think somehow what you're describing, I think, is somehow people think of as a motivator.
- 17:06And, you know, this is akin to, you know, whether things are urgent or not, the, his
- 17:12phrase, like, "Oh, light a fire under them."
- 17:14Or, like, somebody needs a kick in the pants or whatever.
- 17:17Peter Drucker used to say, you know, part of being a good leader is not just being firefighter,
- 17:22it's also being part arsonist.
- 17:24And I'm thinking, "Hmm, maybe, maybe there's a little bit here."
- 17:29Maybe when the time's demanded, but we're talking about a period when it doesn't.
- 17:32I think that, that fake urgency that you're describing, yeah.
- 17:36First off, it's easy to spot for people at all levels.
- 17:41And it undermines your credibility as a leader.
- 17:44So I think you've got to recognize the signs in yourself and avoid doing that.
- 17:49It's just, it's not, especially over the long term, it's not a motivator for people.
- 17:52They just look at you and they go, "This person's just creating more cycles."
- 17:56And that's not a good use of my time.
- 17:58So you can still motivate people while acknowledging that, like, we're in good shape.
- 18:03And now's a good time to get some things done that we've had on our list.
- 18:06We didn't have the bandwidth for.
- 18:07Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- 18:08And I also think that it's a great time to provide opportunities for your team, you
- 18:14know, when we're under pressure, we delegate things we don't have time for.
- 18:18When you've got room to breathe, you can create, as I said, these opportunities for
- 18:23somebody that might have been really waiting for their chance to shine, but because of
- 18:28all the crazy pressure that you're normally under, they don't get the chance.
- 18:33So I would try to look at a period of relative quiet or a slower pace to say, look around
- 18:41and go, who might be ready to step up?
- 18:43And that's not, you know, step up because we're going to create some fake urgency, but like,
- 18:47here's something that maybe you can stay close to and be a mentor in that process.
- 18:53But I think that that's a healthier motivator, right, to say, here's something that we need.
- 18:58Here's something that's going to be valuable.
- 19:01And here's your chance to run it.
- 19:03Actually, that was pretty good.
- 19:05I was not thinking about, you know, empowering your team that way, but that's a really good
- 19:11solution for how to handle the moment.
- 19:13Some of the things that I was thinking about here were certainly, you know, we don't want
- 19:17to force momentum.
- 19:19And, you know, we should be thinking about like how to create just enough structure to
- 19:22keep things moving on your own terms.
- 19:25But you know, it's not about over correcting.
- 19:27It's really about choosing where to apply your energy lightly, but deliberately.
- 19:32So some that I've been thinking about separate from the one you mentioned is like, dang,
- 19:36that was good about team empowerment.
- 19:38It's like, where's my team?
- 19:40I'm not saying that's a good solution.
- 19:42But that's good.
- 19:43You're team deserves vacation.
- 19:45And you need to recharge.
- 19:47Yeah, absolutely.
- 19:48Okay.
- 19:49So, but the way I've been thinking about it here is that during this moment, we kind of
- 19:52need, I like thinking about it as using forcing functions, right?
- 19:58So it could be that, you know, we take, we use this time to pick a stalled initiative and
- 20:03we give it a quiet finish line.
- 20:05So fanfare, just to date, just to wrap it up or we can reframe the review, right?
- 20:11Or the, you know, don't say let's assess what's broken, say, let's make, here's my answer
- 20:17to it.
- 20:18Let's make next quarter easier on ourselves.
- 20:21And that is like a way of reframe.
- 20:23So we're using this month to learn, let's do the work now to make next quarter early easier
- 20:28on ourselves.
- 20:29Oh, there we go.
- 20:30Yeah.
- 20:31Do the work now to make it easier on ourselves.
- 20:33And of course, the, the power question, what are we afraid will happen if we stop doing
- 20:39this?
- 20:40And if no one has a good answer, you probably have permission to pause.
- 20:44Yeah.
- 20:45I think that's the dynamic I was trying to describe earlier, which is like your instinct
- 20:49is to look around and go like, well, I must be missing something.
- 20:53Like if it's not on fire, I don't, I may not know how to identify it, right?
- 20:58And so if I'm looking around and not seeing anything that I'm used to, then, you know,
- 21:02I must be doing something wrong.
- 21:04And that's, yeah, that's something where you need to get perspective and frankly, confidence
- 21:08that you're on top of stuff and that your team is on top of stuff.
- 21:11Absolutely.
- 21:12And the more constructive way to handle that is to, you know, start with that question
- 21:18that we often end with, which is, what am I missing?
- 21:21Right?
- 21:22But it's not a, I must be missing something.
- 21:24It's, are we missing anything here?
- 21:26And, you know, at this time, you'd be okay with, if you're confident in it, like, no,
- 21:30I don't think we are.
- 21:31I think, you know, this is just a quiet time.
- 21:34I have one last one to mention.
- 21:36I know everyone's going to hate it.
- 21:38And it's actually where I think it's just, you know, for people who are not willing to
- 21:41stick with it, they're going to revert back to strategic fidgeting and it's, it's taking
- 21:46time, blocking one hour of stillness, you know, not the meeting, not the brainstorm, just
- 21:55space to notice and pay attention to what matters.
- 22:00So it's not about doing more.
- 22:02It's about being selective in a season that tempts us to either over engineer or to check
- 22:07out entirely.
- 22:08So, you know, look, some are in the problem.
- 22:11The problem is mistaking silence for irrelevance.
- 22:15And, you know, the reality is we can look at this just as much as a strategic opening.
- 22:19Yeah.
- 22:20I would say also just sort of in the final thoughts category for folks who are earlier in
- 22:25their career, folks who are not at the top of the org chart, the quiet time, assuming
- 22:30you have a, you know, a leader who is open to it.
- 22:32And I hope you do.
- 22:33Like, the great time to show initiative by identifying some place, you know, in the organization
- 22:40or in the practices that could be improved and even just to bring it up and say, hey,
- 22:45you know what, like, we've got a little time here.
- 22:47Here's something that I've noticed we could be doing better or here's something that
- 22:51we could spend a little time on.
- 22:53You don't want to, you know, a deluge of random ideas.
- 22:57Yeah.
- 22:58You think it's a good opportunity to again show initiative if you think that it's going
- 23:04to be well received.
- 23:06But I think it's, it's just again about showing that you can do things at different places,
- 23:12show some versatility in your, in your like mode.
- 23:15Like sometimes I think we have two speeds, which is like either again, full throttle or
- 23:20complete idle.
- 23:21Yeah.
- 23:22And the showing strength in the middle there is, I think, something that you want to,
- 23:27you want to do is healthy.
- 23:28Yeah.
- 23:29I can think of a couple others I think that are easier and important here to do.
- 23:33One is using the time here for relationship building, you know, with members of your team
- 23:38as you're talking about empowering your team.
- 23:42I'm gritting my tea thinking about a team member coming to me with a project that we can
- 23:46do this summer.
- 23:47It's like, why don't we just focus on the relationship right now?
- 23:50I'm just getting it.
- 23:51It's a serious one.
- 23:52Yeah.
- 23:53No, I think from a, from a leadership point of view, it's a great time to say, okay, well,
- 23:57it's we have our weekly staff meeting and nothing's on fire.
- 23:59Maybe it's a really good time to just do a recap and communicate things that you have seen
- 24:04the team do well.
- 24:05Maybe something is for improvement, but I think the current term is gratitude, right?
- 24:10Which may feel a little squishy.
- 24:12Yeah.
- 24:13Oh, that's great.
- 24:14We did not work that in yet.
- 24:15But yeah, I think it's, I think it's good.
- 24:16I think it's just like if you know that your brain works better when, when you've got,
- 24:20you know, a solid agenda, right?
- 24:22And no one's putting stuff at the top of that agenda for you right now in the summertime.
- 24:27Moving up things that feel healthy, that feel team building.
- 24:31Again, we talked about empowering.
- 24:33Yep.
- 24:34I think those are things that can, that you can prioritize and scratch that, scratch that
- 24:38urge, gentzification itch.
- 24:41But make them longer term or sort of more soft skills impactful if that makes sense.
- 24:47That is awesome.
- 24:48Excellent point to end on.
- 24:50Well, that's our show for this week.
- 24:52We want to thank Shawn P Neal and the team at Advocast as well as the people forward
- 24:56network for making our podcast possible.
- 24:58If you have comments or suggestions for the podcast, we'd love to hear from you.
- 25:03Our email address is podcast@ocrnetwork.com.
- 25:07Communication breakdown is some production of the Observatory and Corporate Reputation.
- 25:11I'm Craig Carroll.
- 25:13And I'm Steve Dowling.
- 25:14Thanks for listening.
- 25:15We'll see you next week.
- 25:15[MUSIC]
- 25:25#StrategicLeadership #CorporateCommunications #CrisisPrevention #TimeManagement #TeamEmpowerment #WorkplaceWellbeing #ShawnPNeal #AdvoCast #OCRNetwork