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12: Depression and the Soul · Finding God at Work

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, I'm Chris.
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This is Finding God at Work.
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Just a reminder that Finding God at Work
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isn't just a podcast, it's also an online
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course.
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Check it out at FindingGodAtWork.org.
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Our current series is wholehearted, becoming healthier Christians
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at work.
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And right now we're talking about depression.
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This is our third episode about depression, probably
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our final one exclusively about depression, and we'll
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morph into anxiety in our next episode, which
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is a little bit related to depression.
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Oh man, that doesn't sound good, right?
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Like morphing into anxiety.
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Get ready to be anxious, guys.
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Okay, no.
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Hopefully, God will allow us to experience something
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different than anxiety.
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Anyways, we're talking about depression still.
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What I want to talk about in this
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episode is depression and the soul.
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So we took a lot of episodes back
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when we were doing our theological anthropology, letting
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Jesus be our anthropologist, and talked about how
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the soul is meant to relate, the soul
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is meant to integrate, and the soul is
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meant to receive.
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Your soul is a relater.
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Your soul is an integrator.
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Your soul is a receiver.
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There are aspects of your deep inward being
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that are meant to relate to God and
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other people, to integrate your whole experience, and
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to receive the very presence of God.
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And in one of our last episodes, I
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said depression even affects your soul.
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And I wonder if any of you had
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a little bit of a tripwire there.
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We're like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
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It seems as though maybe, maybe my soul
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should be secure.
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I'm saved, right?
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My soul is vouchsafed by the blood of
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Jesus, and so depression cannot touch it.
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How do you mean that depression affects my
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soul?
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And again, remember, when we read the biblical
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passages, our soul is a way of referring
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to different aspects of the life we're living
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now.
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It's not just about our eternal destiny.
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It's about what we're experiencing now.
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And so depression, yes, will affect things that
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could be described as our soul.
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It affects our capacity to relate, our capacity
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to integrate, our capacity to receive.
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And that's okay.
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That doesn't mean that somehow depression is sin
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or sinful.
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It doesn't mean that depression somehow compromises the
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grace of God in our souls.
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Rather, it means this is an experience that
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as we face into it, everything the Bible
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teaches about the soul is relevant to this
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experience.
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And of course, we're using modern medical terminology
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to even use the word depression.
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That word wasn't used in biblical times, but
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we see things in the Bible that seem
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to give voice to the very similar experiences.
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So I want to go to one particular
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character in the Bible who often is seen
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as an icon of someone experiencing depression.
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Again, we weren't there.
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We weren't able to do a battery of
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psychological tests for this person and give them
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an official diagnosis.
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But the literature that this person left behind
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is really striking in how similar it is
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to experiences of depression that people articulate today.
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So this is the prophet Jeremiah.
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He's known as the weeping prophet.
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And this is Lamentations chapter three.
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I just want to read some of it.
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And to me, again, this gives a voice
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to ways that I have often felt during
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a depressive episode.
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I am the man who has seen affliction
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under the rod of his wrath.
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He has driven and brought me into darkness
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without any light.
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Surely against me, he turns his hand again
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and again the whole day long.
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He has made my flesh and my skin
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waste away.
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He has broken my bones.
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He has besieged and enveloped me with bitterness
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and tribulation.
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He has made me dwell in darkness like
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the dead of long ago.
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He has walled me about so that I
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cannot escape.
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He has made my chains heavy.
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Though I call and cry for help, he
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shuts out my prayer.
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He has blocked my ways with blocks of
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stones.
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He has made my paths crooked.
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He is a bear lying in wait for
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me, a lion in hiding.
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He turned aside my steps and tore me
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to pieces.
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He has made me desolate.
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He bent his bow and set me as
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a target for his arrows.
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He drove into my kidneys the arrows of
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his quiver.
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I have become the laughingstock of all peoples,
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the object of their taunts all day long.
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He has filled me with bitterness.
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He has sated me with wormwood.
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He has made my teeth grind on gravel
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and made me cower in ashes.
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My soul is bereft of peace.
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I have forgotten what happiness is.
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So I say my endurance has perished.
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So has my hope from the Lord.
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You can see in this passage the depth
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of the pathos of what Jeremiah is experiencing.
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Such vivid imagery, teeth grinding on gravel, being
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trapped in darkness and unable to get out,
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being torn like by a bear or a
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lion, arrows being driven into the kidneys.
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And what's particularly striking is that Jeremiah is
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addressing all these experiences as though God is
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the one doing them.
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This he in this passage is the Lord.
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I am the man who has seen affliction
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under the rod of his wrath.
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Now what does that mean?
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Does that mean that God is somehow angry
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with Jeremiah and so is inflicting depression on
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him as a punishment?
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No, I think what Jeremiah is giving voice
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to is that even our capacity to relate
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to God is affected by the experience of
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depression.
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Even our capacity to feel like God is
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for us, like God is connected with us,
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that inverses when we're depressed.
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And we feel like God has abandoned us.
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We feel walled in so that we cannot
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escape.
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Though I call and cry for help, he
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shuts out my prayer.
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He has blocked my ways with blocks of
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stones.
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He has made my paths crooked.
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What we get here is actually a really
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emotionally honest description of what life with God
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is like when you're depressed.
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So sometimes very tidy-minded theologians will essentially
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become emotionally dishonest when they talk about life
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with God.
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So I've seen pastors do this where they'll
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say something like, you know, you experienced depression,
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but you still know God is good.
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And it's like, no.
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Jeremiah is like, when you experience depression, it
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feels like God is stabbing arrows into your
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kidneys.
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To me, as someone who has experienced depression,
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that is a much more refreshing perspective.
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It's like, yeah, that is how it feels.
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I do feel like my capacity to feel
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the joy of God is just gone and
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in the trash, right?
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There it says right there.
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He has filled me with bitterness.
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He has sated me with wormwood.
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My endurance has perished.
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So has my hope from the Lord.
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I've been there, guys.
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It does feel that bad.
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It does not feel like, oh, I know
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God is still good.
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Like, no, no, it feels like God has
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trapped you and abandoned you and cannot be
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reached by any means whatsoever.
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Okay, so where do we go from there?
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Where do we go from there?
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Well, I want to go to another passage
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from Jeremiah, right?
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Again, we see in this passage how the
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capacity to relate can be compromised by depression,
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our way of relating to God and to
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other people.
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But I also want to talk about that,
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since that our soul is meant to integrate,
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our soul is meant to bring everything together.
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Again, we talked about how that word that's
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translated strength could also be translated muchness, right?
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Loving the Lord your God with all your
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muchness, everything that you are, your whole integrated
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person.
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And so again, using a more modern word,
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we might think of like the existential quality
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of who we are.
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What is it to have an existential crisis,
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a crisis of identity, a crisis of your
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very existence?
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Well, Jeremiah, no surprise, went through this too.
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So in Jeremiah chapter 20, he has a
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very similar dialogue with God where he's accusing
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God of doing these terrible things to him.
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But now it's in the context of his
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vocation.
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Jeremiah is a prophet.
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This is who he's meant to be.
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What he's meant to do is to declare
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the word of God, something that can be
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hard when you feel like God has abandoned
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you.
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So this is starting in verse seven.
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Oh Lord, you have deceived me and I
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was deceived.
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You were stronger than I and you have
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prevailed.
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I have become a laughing stock all the
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day.
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Everyone mocks me for whenever I speak, I
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cry out.
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I shout violence and destruction for the word
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of the Lord has become for me a
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reproach and a derision all day long.
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If I say I will not mention him
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or speak anymore in his name, there is
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in my heart, as it were, a burning
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fire shut up in my bones and I
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am weary with holding it in and I
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cannot.
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Okay, so what's going on here?
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Jeremiah is saying, look, this whole prophet thing
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isn't working out for me, right?
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I'm just going to stop doing it.
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I'm going to stop declaring the word of
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the Lord.
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Then it turns out that doesn't work, right?
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It's an existential crisis.
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He is not able to not be a
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prophet, right?
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And you might think that's a good thing,
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but it's coming across as a very grievous
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thing in this passage for Jeremiah, right?
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He says, there is in my heart, as
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it were, a burning fire shut up in
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my bones and I am weary with holding
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it in.
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I cannot.
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He wishes he could give up on this
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prophet thing, but he can't.
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When he tries, it still bursts out of
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him.
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Okay, so what does this have to do
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with our soul and our experience in the
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workplace?
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Well, often depression is related to an experience
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of vocational crisis.
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If you have a strong sense of identity
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connected with your work, which not everyone does,
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some people, their job is just a job
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and, you know, they have a sense of
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identity more strongly connected to other parts of
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their life.
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But for many people, there's a good way
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in which your work is part of your
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identity.
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There's a sense in which I am a
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scholar or I am a teacher or I
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am somebody who cares for those who are
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vulnerable.
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Maybe like a social worker could have that
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identity piece or I am somebody who's about
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all about healing, like a healthcare worker could
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have that identity piece.
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So then if you hit a dead end
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at work where you can no longer do
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that thing, it's an existential crisis.
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It's an identity crisis.
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You feel like, well, am I that person
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anymore or not?
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And sometimes like Jeremiah, you might even try
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to give up on a certain vocation, right?
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You get burned out on it.
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So this has happened a lot to teachers,
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right?
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There's this whole flood of teachers entering the
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marketplace jobs in tech companies and software sales
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and other roles because teaching is just such
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a burnout job, the way that it works
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in our public schools typically in the United
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States.
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But it's like you try and give up
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on teaching and you find there's this fire
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in your bones.
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It's like, I got to teach something as
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you go try and find some other outlet
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to teach.
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Or similarly, in other roles, it's like, oh,
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you can no longer be a social worker
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or nurse or a physician, but you still
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got to find a way to care for
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people when they're hurting.
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There's this thing inside of you that can't
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help but come out.
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It's important.
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It's part of who you are.
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And so if that thing seems blocked in
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some way, it's untenable.
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It's not possible to keep going with that
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loss, that loss of vocation.
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And this can compound depression in a very
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severe way.
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So here I need to share a little
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bit of my own story.
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And to keep the episode tight, I'm going
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to super oversimplify, although I wrote a more
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kind of narrative blog post about this same
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story in May of 2024.
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So you can find that on the Mission
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Central website if you want a more complex
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version of this story.
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But I had this sense of an identity
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crisis, a vocational crisis, around my sense that
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I felt called to be a pastor, but
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then my wife, Katie, for a very long
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time, was far from the church and did
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not feel at home in the church.
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And it just didn't seem like being a
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pastor would be an option for me at
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all, while still being a faithful and a
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good husband to her.
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So it felt like I had this impossible
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choice, choose between being a pastor, which I
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feel like I was born to be, or
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choose being a good husband, which I could
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not stomach or even entertain the possibility of
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not being a faithful husband.
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And so it was an impossible choice, right?
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And also the fire in my bones thing
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happened too, where it's just like, I tried
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to not be a pastor, I tried for
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four years, I tried really hard to not
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be a pastor, but I just started pastoring
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everybody.
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It just like came, it just oozes out
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of me.
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I'm like at a lunch break with somebody
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at a mortgage company, and somehow we're talking
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about the Bible, just happens.
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And so it was, it was a crisis.
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And in that crisis, in the darkest chapter
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of that crisis, my depression got more severe
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than ever, when it really felt like it
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is impossible.
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I will never be the kind of minister
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of the gospel that I feel deeply called
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to be, or I will never be the
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kind of faithful husband that I feel that
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I must be.
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When I got to that point of it
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just feeling like I have to somehow choose,
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I became suicidally depressed.
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And that was a very dark time for
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me.
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And if you ever experienced that, I just
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want to tell you that things that seem
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impossible are not.
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Ways that seem shut are not.
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Doors that seem closed are not.
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That God and his grace can still meet
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us in that place.
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And he can meet us there in a
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couple different ways.
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So one is that, even when we're in
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the dark, dark place, Jesus can meet us
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there in his suffering.
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That the suffering of Jesus can be our
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suffering when we're deeply depressed, even when we're
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we don't have the will to live.
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It is possible to find Jesus there and
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cling to his cross and experience union with
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him even in that bleakness.
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This is what we see in the prophet
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Jeremiah, going back to that Lamentations passage.
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That same chapter, the same one with the
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gravel being ground in the teeth and him
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being a livestock and God shoving arrows into
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his kidneys.
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The same one, the same one, right?
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He writes this, the steadfast love of the
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Lord never ceases.
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His mercies never come to an end.
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They are new every morning.
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Great is your faithfulness.
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The Lord is my portion, says my soul.
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Therefore I will hope in him.
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Now this is not to contradict or to
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be one of those emotionally unhealthy pastors that
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just says, but you know that God is
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good.
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I'm not saying that.
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I mean that in the depths of darkness,
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when it feels like God is shoving arrows
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into your kidneys, it is still possible to
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outlast the despair and get to a place
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where you do experience hope in the Lord.
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That's Jeremiah's testimony of his own experience with
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depression.
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And that's my testimony of my own experience
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with depression.
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When I was in that place of incredible
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darkness, I knew that I had to do
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something.
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I knew that I had to receive something
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from the Lord, that if there was a
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way out of that impossible choice between being
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a minister and being a husband, if there
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was a way out that it would have
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to come from God.
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And so what I did, by God's grace,
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is I exercised my will, my capacity to
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choose as compromised as it was and as
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weak as it was, I'd had the ability
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to choose to go see a therapist.
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And that's what I did.
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And that therapist helped me.
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And I met with him for about six
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months.
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And God just did things in those therapy
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sessions that I can't really explain.
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And I had the ability to say, I
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am willing.
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I'm willing to take one step toward God,
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even while he's doing this to me, and
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see what happens.
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And God showed up.
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And slowly, over time, I realized there was
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a way out.
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There was a way to be a minister
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of the gospel in my context, in my
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workplace, at the lunch break, talking about the
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Bible randomly as it oozes out of me,
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and being a faithful husband to Katie.
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And God worked healing in her life too.
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And so that was part of the whole
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thing.
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But this is what's so important, is to
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believe, even against every reason of your current
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experience, that there is something to receive from
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the Lord in your suffering.
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That if you endure, you can outlast the
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depression.
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And I want to just talk about a
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really funny internet meme.
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This is even necessarily a Christian meme, but
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I think it's so great.
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And it said, just a friendly reminder, if
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you're still alive, you are not struggling with
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depression.
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Depression is struggling with you.
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And I read that when I was depressed,
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and it was super encouraging.
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And I think there's a deeper meaning there,
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for those of us who follow Jesus, that
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depression is not just struggling with you.
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Depression is struggling with your God, whose mercies
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are new every morning, whose faithfulness is great
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and unfailing.
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And in those moments when it feels like
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God is far away, or silent, or even
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angry, if you can hold on, there will
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be a new day to come.
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Now, I want to be really clear.
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We're not promised full healing of any condition,
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other than the forgiveness of sins, in this
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life, before Jesus's return.
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And I believe that, for most of us
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who experience depression, some kind of recovery, some
16:59
kind of change for the better, is possible
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here in this life.
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As we engage our will, and ask for
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help, and take a holistic approach, we often
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do feel less depressed, and that's a really
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good thing.
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And that's something we can be grateful for.
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That's a gift of the Lord.
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But I believe in my own life.
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I have probably not experienced my last depressive
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episode, and I have friends who have a
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much, much darker walk with depression than I
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do.
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And for them, recovery is about making it
17:31
through, not about being depression-free.
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And so our ultimate hope is not about
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feeling better in this life, even though that
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may be part of our experience.
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Our final hope is in the resurrection, of
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the same Jesus who suffered on the cross,
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and who we can draw close to in
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our suffering, that He rose again on the
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third day, and that He will restore the
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whole creation, including our bodies, and our brains,
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and our souls, that He will make us
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new.
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And on that day when we see Him,
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we will not be depressed at all.
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That's the hope we're looking forward to, and
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that's what can sustain us one day at
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a time until then.
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Jesus, do your work in us as we
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do our work with you.
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Amen.
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Thanks for listening.
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18:32
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18:35
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