Latest / Relish: a Christian podcast / Did Lucifer Really Have Free Will?

Transcript

Did Lucifer Really Have Free Will? · Relish: a Christian podcast

• 0:01
  Relish pleasing or zestful flavor a quantity just sufficient to flavor to be
• 0:07
  pleased or gratified by enjoy we are hoping that what we bring to your table
• 0:12
  today might add some spice to your life,
• 0:16
  welcome back to another episode of relish i am your host roe miller this is
• 0:20
  pastor don patterson how are you doing today don yeah we're doing good we're
• 0:24
  doing good yeah so am i yeah electrified,
• 0:30
  okay my my question for you okay do you think that religion has a place in politics
• 0:37
  oh boy that sounds like last episode doesn't it do you think that religion has
• 0:42
  a place in politics if so what is it,
• 0:47
  i mean,
• 0:51
  I've always kind of been told and taught and read about the separation of church
• 0:57
  and state and I don't I think,
• 1:01
  when it's fully blended together like it has been in the past then I don't think
• 1:07
  that's good for anybody but I don't think that you should have like leaders and,
• 1:16
  politicians that are fully after their own desires either.
• 1:24
  So, yeah, I think what we have set in place here in the U.S.
• 1:29
  Is pretty reasonable in terms of that.
• 1:33
  I can't remember what president it was, but I know one of them would always,
• 1:39
  before he would sign a bill or,
• 1:43
  go give a speech or whatever, He'd always pray and ask God what he had thought
• 1:48
  about it and maybe multiple presidents have done that.
• 1:50
  But I thought that was pretty neat.
• 1:53
  Yeah. So I think you definitely still have to turn to the Holy Spirit for...
• 2:00
  I think so, yeah. What I think is interesting is, you know, you could read this
• 2:05
  question and say, well, okay, we're coming from a Christian perspective.
• 2:09
  Would we feel the same way with Islam being a religion? Yeah,
• 2:14
  that's true. In the place of politics.
• 2:17
  And I think I might wrestle just a tad bit with Shahira law,
• 2:23
  you know, being put in place in a certain city.
• 2:25
  Like, say, this city decided to adopt Shahira law and I want to go buy pretzels
• 2:33
  there or something. And then, you know, they have to have a certain kind of
• 2:36
  pretzel because of the law, you know. Right.
• 2:40
  Maybe I don't like that kind of pretzel. So anyway, the question is provocative
• 2:45
  in the fact that we come to it with an assumption of Christianity.
• 2:49
  Right. Yeah, that's what I did, 100%. And then you start looking at that question
• 2:53
  a little farther and you say, I don't know. But if it's any religion,
• 2:57
  does it have a place in politics?
• 3:01
  Then it starts getting a little stickier. Right. Yeah.
• 3:07
  What do you think? Well.
• 3:12
  I still think you've got to keep both church and state operating in their own
• 3:18
  realms, and sometimes they share with each other, and that's all right. Right.
• 3:22
  I think sometimes we may need to monitor how much it shares with each other because,
• 3:27
  like I just thought, well, okay, what happens in an Islamic Muslim influence
• 3:35
  situation where the Islam comes across the road into politics,
• 3:39
  and how does that affect us then?
• 3:43
  That's a very real-world scenario given the politics of today.
• 3:49
  And I think I'd have a harder time with that, right?
• 3:54
  I think I could say yes to Christianity, influencing politics.
• 4:01
  But then the documents themselves and most of our laws are of a Christian,
• 4:07
  are formed out of the Bible and what was always been used,
• 4:14
  in the Bible from that perspective. Thou shalt not. Yeah.
• 4:19
  A lot of laws written, thou shalt not. Right. Yeah.
• 4:24
  And you know, when you boil it down, When you go killing somebody,
• 4:28
  it usually is not a positive experience.
• 4:31
  And so the law should be written that if I whoop up on you, then there should
• 4:36
  be some retribution. There should be some way of taking care of that between
• 4:40
  us and making the relationship all right.
• 4:43
  And so that if you knock me off, I knock you off. That's not good.
• 4:51
  If the law reads different than that, I think we're all in trouble. Right.
• 4:59
  I think our current,
• 5:03
  government or state that we're in, I think it mostly reflects what the majority
• 5:10
  of the citizens themselves would identify as Christian.
• 5:15
  I think that's reflected in the government.
• 5:20
  Currently. Right. I think my concern is future. Yeah.
• 5:26
  How's that gonna look in the future so yeah today,
• 5:32
  religion and politics can influence each other but they shouldn't take over each other.
• 5:42
  Well what makes anabaptism unique from other denominations and what was wrong
• 5:48
  with the or wrong with the other denominations that made the founders want to
• 5:54
  create a new denomination.
• 5:56
  Okay. And so specifically talking about Anabaptism.
• 6:00
  So we have two major areas that Anabaptism grew up.
• 6:07
  And one was a response to the reform movement.
• 6:11
  And so Alrick Swingley and the reform movement, and some of his students said,
• 6:17
  okay, this reformation we got going, this is good stuff we've got going in Zurich,
• 6:22
  and so let's make sure we take it one more.
• 6:26
  And so the students of Zwingli wanted to take this reform movement.
• 6:33
  Far enough that it would include adult baptism instead of infant baptism.
• 6:40
  The problem was that infant baptism done in the church was one way of getting
• 6:48
  each and every individual on the rolls.
• 6:52
  So that the citizens, they would know who was born.
• 6:56
  And of course, they also used the church rolls for who died because that was also kept.
• 7:02
  And so as long as government and the church could work together at that,
• 7:08
  it really made a nice segue. Okay, Mary Lou had a baby. The baby was a boy.
• 7:13
  And we wrote it down and it happened the 25th of June.
• 7:17
  And okay, then that becomes a tax document. Okay.
• 7:22
  So they used it for everything. Used it for everything.
• 7:26
  And the reformers.
• 7:30
  Grable, Montz, and Blaurock, they said, no, that's not far enough.
• 7:40
  And so it was as Zwingli was teaching and saying, let's make this reformation and transform Zurich.
• 7:49
  And he stopped at that point.
• 7:54
  And so, they went off on their own. They Blauroch baptized the other two,
• 8:01
  and they started what became the Anabaptist Church because they baptized again.
• 8:06
  They were baptized as children. Anna would be again Anabaptist.
• 8:13
  The other reform was basically similar in the fact that it was a reaction to
• 8:21
  the Reformation. So, it was as if Luther didn't quite go far enough.
• 8:26
  And so, it was moving away from the Catholic Orthodoxy as if Luther didn't go quite far enough.
• 8:33
  And so, they became Anabaptists as well.
• 8:36
  It's interesting, it happened in two different parts of Europe,
• 8:41
  and it came together then later on to what is known as Anabaptists today and Baptists today. Yeah.
• 8:52
  So, yeah.
• 8:56
  Did I catch most of that? Works for me. So that's why it's as if a movement had started.
• 9:06
  It didn't quite go far enough to satisfy those who would be Anabaptists.
• 9:13
  And so they took it farther.
• 9:16
  In fact, so far that they wanted to be declared much like the early church.
• 9:21
  And so the Anabaptist movement would take into consideration anything that worked in the book of Acts.
• 9:30
  Including the lot. And so, the lot that appears in chapter 1 of Acts to discern
• 9:36
  who was going to take the place of Judas, and the lot fell on Matthias.
• 9:42
  And then Matthias became a disciple, because an apostle, equal to the other
• 9:47
  apostles through the casting of lots.
• 9:52
  And the Amish still use it to this day.
• 9:55
  Some of our other churches use it to this day. uh trying to get back to that,
• 10:02
  acts chapter two church yeah until you start talking in tongues.
• 10:11
  I'm just saying we don't do much on tongues no no that's really acts chapter two,
• 10:20
  so my my understanding angels are created holy beings right They are created beings of God.
• 10:28
  Yeah. Are they holy? They started out that way.
• 10:31
  Yeah. Angels started out that way. And then they, like us, sometimes get affected
• 10:38
  by what goes on around them. And there's a group of angels then that fell with Satan. Yeah.
• 10:45
  The question was, was Lucifer not created holy like the other angels?
• 10:51
  Oh, no. He was created holy. So then how could something holy still go against God?
• 11:00
  Pride. We look at it, I think it's Ezekiel 20, Ezekiel,
• 11:07
  28. Yeah.
• 11:12
  Ezekiel 28, you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created.
• 11:16
  Boy, man, right hit you right on.
• 11:19
  Verse 15, from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
• 11:26
  Through your widespread trade, you were filled with violence and you sinned.
• 11:32
  So I drove you in disgrace from the Mount of God, and I expelled you,
• 11:36
  O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
• 11:42
  Does that answer your question? More or less. Thank you, Lord.
• 11:47
  You got me to the right chapter and the right verse.
• 11:51
  What's interesting yet, go back up to verse 11 and 12.
• 11:55
  You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and imperfect beauty.
• 12:02
  You were in Eden, the garden of God, very precious stone adored for you.
• 12:07
  Your settings and mountings were made of gold. On the day you were created, they were prepared.
• 12:13
  You were anointed as a guardian cherub.
• 12:17
  As so you, for so I ordained you, you were on the holy mount of God.
• 12:26
  You walked among the fiery stones. So Satan was perfect. Right.
• 12:35
  But right here it says, your heart became proud on account of your beauty and
• 12:42
  you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.
• 12:47
  So it's as if he chose the route, the route he took. Yeah.
• 12:57
  Can we handle the fact that angels can choose to be good or bad in the same
• 13:05
  way we can choose to be good or bad?
• 13:10
  So does that does that still happen nowadays like,
• 13:16
  is it is there still among the us like in the spiritual warfare there's still angels that are,
• 13:24
  becoming unholy and falling to say in or well i i thought that the fall of the
• 13:31
  angels happened once but they're that's different because they're not mortal
• 13:35
  like we are and have beginnings and ends,
• 13:37
  in the same way we have beginning is an ends. And, uh,
• 13:43
  yeah. Uh, so I don't think.
• 13:49
  How can I say they can change their minds?
• 13:53
  You sort of, yeah. You make your choice. Make your choice and you sort of go from there.
• 14:00
  We know that they can sort of reflect good angels.
• 14:06
  In other words, 2 Corinthians 11, verse 14, you know, they can masquerade as an angel of light.
• 14:15
  So we know that can happen. Um, with, we know that they're celestial in the,
• 14:23
  they, uh, it was, uh, Satan that actually walked in heaven among the sons of God,
• 14:32
  when he accused Job.
• 14:37
  Interesting. We do know that they were cast from heaven. That's recorded in Matthew 25, 41.
• 14:44
  Interesting. We opened to this and it ended up, I even have a sticky note with these things on it.
• 14:49
  Matthew 25, 41, 2 Peter 2, 4, Isaiah 14, 12 to 14.
• 15:00
  Must have gave a sermon on this. Evidently.
• 15:09
  Temptation, James 1, 13 through 15.
• 15:13
  That is a little different. So I'm not sure whether that talks about the angels being tempted.
• 15:25
  No. Us being tempted. I'm talking about us being tempted. And we're being dragged by evil desire.
• 15:34
  So, no more the devil made me do it kind of thing, huh? Right. Yeah.
• 15:42
  So, yes, it seems that at least Lucifer in his form, original form,
• 15:51
  was beautiful, wonderful, worship leader.
• 15:56
  Try to think where I got that worship leader part. Was that 18? Ezekiel 18? I haven't.
• 16:03
  For some reason, Ezekiel has more. He does. On that.
• 16:14
  Yeah, it made it seem almost like his beauty is what made him lead to.
• 16:20
  It does. He was prideful in the way he looked.
• 16:26
  Yeah, and his desire to be God. He wanted to,
• 16:36
  replicate God. Yeah. So any of us that decide that we want to replicate God
• 16:41
  end up in the same situation.
• 16:47
  I mean, in a way, sometimes I think we're tempted to be our own God.
• 16:52
  I want to be in charge, and Lord, don't tell me to do it another way. I want to do it this way.
• 16:59
  And so in that way, if we're not going to listen to God's counsel,
• 17:03
  aren't we putting ourselves in the place of God?
• 17:08
  I mean, if I'm going to do it my way. Jonah's out.
• 17:13
  Yeah. ah, that didn't work so well for him, did it? Ah, I'm not going to go
• 17:19
  your way. I'm going to go my way. I don't want them to repent.
• 17:22
  I want them to have judgment. So I want to do it my way.
• 17:26
  And that just doesn't go well with God. In fact, I'd say anytime that we're,
• 17:31
  not asking God's counsel, we're in danger of being in that spot where,
• 17:36
  uh-oh, I'm going to do it my way rather than God's way.
• 17:42
  To me, that's missing the mark, right? Missing the mark, right? Sin, yeah.
• 17:47
  So if God's got a plan for us and we're not even asking him, we might be sinning.
• 17:53
  Yeah. That's missing the mark.
• 17:59
  Yeah. Have to have him come into church again and shoot the arrow across the
• 18:03
  congregation and go, wow! Yeah.
• 18:08
  Yeah. That gets soft point across, doesn't it?
• 18:13
  Okay. All righty. Well, thank you guys for joining us. Hope you guys enjoyed.
• 18:19
  I know Don and I had fun. Oh, yeah. So, yeah. Hope you enjoyed.
• 18:25
  We'll see you next time. Lord willing.
• 18:28
  Thank you for joining us for this podcast. Feel free to become part of this
• 18:32
  ministry by sharing it with others.
• 18:34
  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
• 18:37
  and is calling to us in our daily lives.
• 18:40
  Thank you again for joining us, and may God bless your day. Thank you.