Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Matt Miller: AI Literacy and Tomorrow Glasses

Transcript

Matt Miller: AI Literacy and Tomorrow Glasses · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:09
Today we're thrilled to welcome a true innovator
0:12
in education, Matt Miller. Matt began his teaching
0:16
journey in high school Spanish classroom, where
0:19
he quickly realized that traditional approaches
0:21
weren't enough. And instead of settling for the
0:24
status quo, he turned to creativity, technology,
0:27
and storytelling to better connect with his students.
0:30
What started as classroom experimentation soon
0:33
grew into a movement. Now more than a decade
0:36
later, Matt is a nationally recognized educator,
0:39
author, and speaker. Over 100 ,000 educators
0:42
subscribe to his free newsletters for practical
0:44
teaching tips and his teacher blog, Ditch That
0:47
Textbook. It boasts of more than 600 posts on
0:51
creative, tech -infused teaching strategies.
0:54
He's also the author of six bestselling books
0:56
on education, including the award -winning Ditch
0:59
That Textbook, AI for Educators, and more. Matt
1:04
has presented at hundreds of schools, districts,
1:06
and conferences across the U .S. and internationally.
1:10
Whether it's through dynamic keynotes, hands
1:12
-on workshops, or breakout sessions, Matt consistently
1:15
equips teachers with actionable strategies that
1:17
can transform learning the very next day. And
1:20
we're especially excited to share that Matt will
1:23
be the keynote speaker for our upcoming SWWC
1:27
AI and Education Virtual Symposium presented
1:30
by AID on May 16th. 2025. We are so excited to
1:36
have Matt with us today. So Matt, welcome to
1:39
the integrate this podcast. Yeah, I appreciate
1:41
you guys having me on. Thanks. Yeah. Um, so Matt,
1:45
you know, I actually have this just occurred
1:47
to me here, I'm going to kind of deviate a little
1:49
bit right from the the outset here. But, um,
1:51
you know, I think listening to David's intro
1:54
there, I think what struck me most is not the
1:57
but yeah. it obviously is the long list of accolades
2:01
and accomplishments that you've had. But I love
2:04
that he started off with, you know, your classroom
2:06
teacher. And I know that was it last spring,
2:11
you had the chance to go back into the classroom,
2:14
kind of as a long term sub at a high school that
2:17
your kids attended. And I'm just wondering, you
2:20
know, what that experience was like, and you
2:22
know, it was that kind of like transformative
2:25
in your mind and how you integrate technology.
2:27
Yeah, in a lot of ways it was. So yeah, Jeremy,
2:31
I did go back in the classroom last semester,
2:35
or last spring, I should say, for a semester
2:37
at my kid's school, same school that my wife
2:40
teaches in, same school district where I had
2:44
taught years before, teaching all levels of high
2:47
school Spanish. And I wanted to get that, well,
2:51
for one reason, I had been out for eight years
2:53
doing presentations at schools and writing and,
2:56
you know, stuff like that. And I wanted to get
2:59
back just but first of all, just because I loved
3:01
it, you know, because I miss teaching, I miss
3:03
being with students, and I miss, you know, the
3:05
the daily creative work of trying to come up
3:08
with ways to engage them and learning and, you
3:11
know, just to be able to, you know, creatively
3:14
problem solve through all the stuff that's going
3:16
on. And I miss the relationships with the kids
3:18
and everything. But another reason was, you know,
3:20
it had been eight years since I had taught full
3:24
time and you know whenever you're teaching full
3:27
time and you have a full slate of classes every
3:29
single day there are lots of challenges and lots
3:32
of opportunities and lots of things to do that
3:35
are different that you just don't realize if
3:37
you're not in it. And so you know I got back
3:40
in and taught six class periods of Spanish 1,
3:42
Spanish 2, and Spanish 3. Had my sophomore daughter
3:47
in my Spanish 2 class also like No pressure,
3:50
right? No pressure, Dad. Don't screw this up,
3:53
Dad. But no, it was great. It was a great reminder
3:58
for me of just like the day -to -day challenge
4:02
of trying to keep learning going and trying to
4:05
make it relevant and trying to find ways that
4:06
it works, but also the role of technology. and
4:11
all of that too. I had integrated technology
4:13
a lot before, but eight years ago, cell phones
4:16
weren't as big of a deal. Learning management
4:18
systems weren't as robust. You didn't have nearly
4:22
as many ed tech products. And then of course,
4:24
all of the AI stuff that's come on over the last
4:26
couple of years, we didn't have any of that stuff.
4:29
And so it was just trying to figure out like...
4:31
what works and what's worth it. And whenever
4:35
I'm trying to teach a full load of Spanish classes,
4:39
what technology helps me accomplish my goals
4:42
and what of it. isn't really accomplishing my
4:45
goals and I don't feel like I really needed as
4:47
much. And so, yeah, I got to try a whole bunch
4:50
of stuff. I tried, you know, getting creative
4:53
teaching ideas through large language models
4:55
like ChatGPT. I tried, you know, some of the
5:00
teacher tools that help you plan lessons and
5:02
stuff. I generated lots of images using Microsoft
5:06
Designer and other AI image generators. Just
5:09
lots of images for my students to describe in
5:11
Spanish. I mean there's a whole host of other
5:14
things. I tried some school AI chat bots in my
5:17
class to have it like engage with my students
5:20
conversationally uh in Spanish and I mean there
5:22
was just all sorts of other things that I could
5:24
have tried too but I also was teaching for a
5:28
semester after having not taught for eight years
5:30
so there was a lot of like trying to get my sea
5:33
legs back so to speak you know like trying to
5:35
remember what it's like to teach and getting
5:39
back into the practice of it and everything.
5:42
So in some ways it kind of dragged on for a long
5:45
time because it's work and it's tedious sometimes,
5:50
but it also kind of like went by in a flash.
5:52
Like there was just not enough time to do all
5:55
of the things that I wanted to do. And I think
5:57
that just sort of reflects the reality of teaching,
6:00
right? you know it was interesting to see all
6:03
of that but then also it has since given me kind
6:07
of like a good lens to look through some of these
6:10
AI issues that are coming up and like how do
6:13
we do best by our students and how do we prepare
6:15
them and it's it's kind of given me some a new
6:16
fresh perspective so sorry I hope I didn't go
6:19
like on and on too long about that but it was
6:21
it was it was a really interesting experience.
6:23
So if you take kind of like your your experience
6:26
from the classroom and you know like actually
6:28
implementing some of the AI strategies that you
6:30
talk about so you're bringing in your experience
6:34
of what it's like to be in the classroom but
6:36
like And then you can also bring in with that,
6:39
your experience, you know, with other things
6:41
that you've created that ditch that textbook,
6:43
you know, and you're speaking and presenting
6:48
engagements that you have to kind of pull all
6:51
of those things together. So what do you think
6:53
is kind of now, you know, from those lenses,
6:57
you know, kind of the direction that we see with
7:00
our teaching practices and how our students are
7:03
going to use AI going forward? Yeah, it's such
7:08
a tricky, I'm really trying not to use the word
7:11
unprecedented, because we kind of overuse that
7:13
during remote teaching and COVID and all of that
7:16
stuff, right? Like everybody's kind of sick of
7:18
that word, but it really is sort of a new. frontier
7:23
that we're having to deal with when it comes
7:25
to AI. What's interesting about it, too, is that
7:27
some of the same old issues that we still haven't
7:31
resolved are sort of coming up and manifesting
7:33
themselves in new ways with AI, but it's also
7:35
presenting a whole lot of new challenges, too.
7:38
And I think it's really forcing forcing a lot
7:41
of us to go back to some of those foundational
7:43
things of. Why are we here in the first place?
7:48
You know, like. what are we trying to accomplish
7:51
as teachers? What do our students need from us
7:55
to go out and survive and thrive in the world?
7:58
And to survive and thrive in the world in five
8:01
years, 10 years, 15, 20 years, there's probably
8:05
in some ways going to look very, very, very different
8:08
than the way that it does now. and how do we
8:11
prepare them for that world when we can't even
8:13
like totally see it yet. Those are some of like
8:15
the big picture things I start to see but then
8:18
I also you know through the writing and the speaking
8:21
and the actual in classroom teaching and being
8:25
a dad you know to three kids that are in high
8:28
school and college right now having my wife as
8:32
a public school teacher. And so like through
8:35
all of those things, I also realized that even
8:37
though we want to prepare students for the future,
8:39
there are still lessons to teach today. There's
8:42
still lesson planning to be done today and grading
8:44
to be done today and interactions with students
8:46
today. And it's like, it's this great big sort
8:49
of balancing act that we've got to do. And Some
8:54
of the bigger questions about education and about
8:59
school that it's starting to bring up, what should
9:01
our relationship with content knowledge be? What
9:05
should our relationship with skills be? How much
9:08
should it be augmented by AI and how much should
9:10
we push back on AI to try to retain what's special
9:14
about us as humans? There's this huge balance
9:17
that we're gonna have to wrestle with. It's easy
9:22
for the education pundits and the talking heads
9:25
and everything to talk about it in great big
9:28
theoretical terms on keynote stages and on LinkedIn
9:32
and all of that stuff. But then we also realize
9:35
that in the classroom is where it actually happens.
9:38
And in schools is where it actually happens.
9:41
And so it's like, yeah, we've got these big picture
9:43
ideas about all of this, but then how do we actually
9:46
operationalize this on the school level, right?
9:51
I don't know exactly where you were intending
9:53
for me to go on that question, but that's kind
9:55
of where I've started to go. It's just that from
9:58
that experience as a teacher all the way up to
10:01
some of that big picture thinking about what
10:04
are we trying to do, it's creating a lot of this
10:09
tug of war, like this pulling against. stuff
10:13
that we've done for so long, but then also realizing
10:16
that some of the realities of today and of the
10:19
future just aren't matching up with it. And so
10:21
it's gonna create tension, right? There's gonna
10:24
be friction and it's gonna be tough and everybody's
10:27
gonna have different views of where it should
10:29
go, but not everybody can have what they want,
10:34
right? So it's like... Whose vision do we go
10:37
with and what values do we follow? And we're
10:39
just gonna have to wrestle with a lot of that
10:41
that great big stuff, right? Yeah, and I think,
10:46
you know, to tie a couple things together the
10:49
so my my own experience, like I taught for five
10:53
years, and then I've been in in tech integration
10:57
for the last six years here. And it's kind of
11:00
interesting because in in I'd be curious what
11:04
your perception of this is and just like the
11:07
different teachers that you've worked with and
11:09
both in your recent experience. And then, you
11:12
know, going back a decade like what what I kind
11:16
of saw was that. You know, you talked a lot about
11:21
like what we have outdated practices or you know,
11:27
like we have new ways to get students access
11:31
to knowledge. you know, going back even a decade,
11:34
where we had it for so long textbooks and everything,
11:38
right. And that was our primary source. And then
11:41
the internet opens up, and then you have all
11:44
these ed tech tools that just gradually start
11:47
to increase. And then you have now within the
11:50
last couple years, you have AI. So it's like
11:53
a continued push, and trying to make these things
11:58
all work together. So if you think about that
12:03
timeline, and teachers that have been in schools
12:06
during that timeline. And if they're expressing,
12:10
you know, oh, we we feel overwhelmed by this
12:13
AI, we have concerns about it, and all that type
12:16
of stuff. How do you kind of help teachers to
12:20
keep a keep the right mind frame when they're
12:24
moving through all those different phases within
12:26
that span of time? I encourage him to embrace
12:30
those feelings. I think sometimes people just
12:33
assume that folks like me, or even you guys in
12:36
your role, that they just assume that we're all
12:39
gonna say, use technology and use more of it,
12:41
incorporate AI and AI is the way and it's not
12:44
going anywhere, so you might as well get with
12:46
it. And I've gotten to the point where I'm like,
12:50
we've got to figure out what our goal is, right?
12:54
What are we trying to accomplish? And for me,
12:56
when I was teaching high school Spanish, my goal
12:58
is to help my students become proficient in Spanish.
13:02
Now, in the future, will we be able to put on
13:06
our smart glasses with our little speakers and
13:10
microphones and be able to have a seamless conversation
13:13
without having to learn a language? Maybe, but
13:16
not today. And so today I still have the task
13:20
of helping my students to become proficient in
13:24
this language. And I have a set amount of curriculum
13:26
related to it. And there's part of it where I
13:29
want to try to prepare my students for this future,
13:32
but then it's also balancing with this reality
13:36
of today that we still have a job to do today.
13:38
And I think that's where some of that overwhelm
13:41
is that you were touching on, David. And so...
13:45
I think whenever we try to pile too much of that
13:49
onto teachers' plates, that's when they start
13:51
to get overwhelmed. And that's when the burnout
13:54
starts to happen. And that's when, you know,
13:57
like whenever our view of what our job is doesn't
14:01
match up very nicely with what's being asked
14:04
of us, that's when some of that friction starts
14:06
to happen too. And so I would say, you know,
14:10
to the folks that are saying they feel so overwhelmed,
14:14
and I totally get it because I was feeling overwhelmed
14:16
in the classroom too, is to keep the main thing
14:20
the main thing, right? So if there are AI tools
14:25
that come along and if there are, you know, if
14:28
there's EdTech and if there's, you know, ways
14:30
to, you know, get new ideas and incorporate internet
14:34
-based stuff into your classroom and everything,
14:37
like, let's still make sure that it stays within
14:39
the focus of student learning. Now, along with
14:44
that to kind of try to balance out, I feel like
14:46
we also have this moral imperative to prepare
14:50
students for the future that they're really going
14:52
to see. And so I think that that does incorporate
14:56
some level of AI literacy, of understanding how
15:01
AI works and how it's incorporated into your
15:04
day -to -day life and your work life and how
15:06
it should be used and shouldn't be used and some
15:08
of those core understandings. I think at the
15:15
school district level, we've got to get super
15:17
crystal clear about what the goal is for the
15:22
classroom. What are we trying to accomplish in
15:24
the classroom? And the answer can't be all of
15:27
this. It can't be everything. So I think we've
15:30
got to be a little bit more clear about that
15:33
at the school district level. But to go back
15:35
to your question about those teachers that say
15:37
that they're feeling overwhelmed by all of this,
15:39
I would say keep the main thing the main thing.
15:42
And then the other thing is, and it's the same
15:45
thing that tech integrators like all of us have
15:48
been saying since the dawn of Google Docs and
15:51
the internet, and that is start small and go
15:54
slow. Right. That's probably part of the big
15:58
reason why so many people feel overwhelmed is
16:02
because they feel like there's so much of this
16:04
stuff that they have to try and that, you know,
16:07
they don't want to fall behind and they don't
16:09
want to or they feel pressure and We got to keep
16:12
the main thing the main thing, right? We have
16:14
to make sure that these tech tools support the
16:18
goals of what we're trying to do in class instead
16:20
of just trying to incorporate all of this stuff,
16:24
right? We don't want to get the cart before the
16:26
horse as they say. Anyway, those are I think
16:30
probably the two big things and I hope that that's
16:34
the kind of advice that will help people to not
16:37
feel overwhelmed as much is just to keep the
16:40
main thing the main thing and to start small
16:43
and go slow. Yeah, I like the start small part.
16:47
I think that there's a tendency with the overwhelming
16:52
amount of tools and features that are available.
16:55
I think it can be both both for a tech integrationist
16:59
who does training. And those that are teachers
17:03
out of schools, it's sifting through and finding
17:05
something of actual value that still, as you
17:08
said, contributes to the main thing, or the main
17:11
what is the main goal. And if you're trying to
17:14
pack in 10 different tools into a training, I
17:18
don't know, it's almost like it does a disservice
17:20
to that feeling overwhelmed, you know, and and
17:23
things like that. So that's, I like the start
17:25
small and stay focused on what the goal is. And
17:29
can I add one more thing to that, that I think
17:31
plays into this as well, is that if we're trying
17:35
to keep the main thing the main thing, and if
17:37
we're trying to start small and go slow and everything,
17:40
part of the problem is that in the business world,
17:44
the ed tech business world, that's not their
17:46
goal. And we're at odds, right? So you start
17:50
to see from some of these tech companies and
17:53
they're like, oh, we want you to become our ambassador.
17:56
We want you to try this out. Oh, we've got seven
17:58
new features since the last time that we emailed
18:00
you. Let us tell you all about them and the way
18:03
that you can use them in the classroom. And if
18:04
you're using them, then we want you to tell us
18:06
about it. And then we'll tell people about it
18:08
on social media. And it's like all of this stuff
18:11
that keeps coming out of them is in pursuit.
18:14
of them gaining market share and of them improving
18:17
on their business goals. And a lot of times the
18:21
goals of the EdTech companies are at odds, not
18:24
all the time. I found a handful of them that
18:27
seemed to align a little bit better with the
18:30
real classroom and real learning, but sometimes
18:32
they're at odds with what we're trying to do
18:34
in the classroom. And so there's that pressure
18:38
from them, whether they realize they're doing
18:40
it or not, I think a lot of them realize they're
18:42
doing it. There's that pressure to try more and
18:47
do more. And even if it's not coming top down
18:50
from your school district or from the tech integration
18:54
office or from like your principal or whatever,
18:58
even if it's not, there's still that external
19:00
pressure that's coming. Because most of the time
19:02
if you try one of their products, you get signed
19:04
up for their email list and then they're emailing
19:06
you with all of the things that they want you
19:08
to try and they want you to do and they want
19:10
you to remember. And there's almost a little
19:12
shaming that comes into that. Here's the seven
19:14
new tools. And if you're not doing these things,
19:17
then you know, you're missing out on what all
19:19
the other great teachers that are out there are
19:21
doing because they're cutting edge and you're
19:23
just like being left behind. Then who are you
19:25
and what are you doing with your life? Yeah,
19:27
right. It's like there's that there's that feeling.
19:29
That's exactly right. Yeah, say I'm gonna take
19:33
you back to something you said you were you were
19:35
touching on before with AI literacy It becoming
19:40
important, you know it in you know from reading
19:42
your book and stuff to you know Preparing students
19:44
for the future and kind of having your your future
19:47
glasses, right? And then I listened to your podcast
19:51
with Holly Clark and in your recent episode I
19:54
like this statement here. So I'm quoting you
19:58
directly here you mentioned growing in our understanding
20:01
so that we can make better human judgments. And
20:04
so would you care to like touch on what is the
20:07
importance? I'd like to call it human intelligence.
20:10
And, you know, Ethan Malik would be the the human
20:13
in the loop, right? What's the what's the importance
20:16
of focusing on the human part before the artificial
20:19
part? Yeah, I mean, I was talking earlier about
20:24
in the classroom, we're gonna have to go back
20:26
to some of these foundational questions about
20:30
why are we here and what are we trying to accomplish?
20:33
And this gets even more foundational than that,
20:36
I think, is that idea of who are we as humans
20:40
and what makes us special? what are we willing
20:44
to let AI do and what aren't we? And what are
20:48
we willing to let AI control and what aren't
20:50
we? And that might seem like sort of like big
20:54
and philosophical and everything, but it comes
20:56
down into real world consequences every single
21:00
day. And if we don't realize that we're making
21:02
those decisions, then we aren't, we aren't actively
21:06
making those decisions ourselves. It's just like
21:09
sort of like passively happening, whether we
21:11
realize it or not. I mean think for instance
21:13
back to when smartphones started coming around
21:17
and social media started coming around and like
21:20
we were totally unprepared for that we had no
21:23
idea what kind of impact having a smartphone
21:26
in our pocket every single waking up and I'm
21:28
no better because here's mine on my hip right
21:31
now connected to notifications on social media
21:35
just like everybody else but we had no idea what
21:37
kind of impact that was going to have on us and
21:39
here we are you know More than a decade later
21:43
and we're starting to see the impact on it and
21:46
We still aren't learning our lesson. We're still
21:49
terrible at it and there's still you know all
21:51
of this anxiety and depression and addiction
21:56
to our technology and cyber bullying and like
21:59
all of the negative things that that come with
22:02
it and yet we're still doing it all over again
22:04
and now we have a whole new class of technology
22:07
that's It's not like it didn't exist before.
22:10
It's not like AI didn't exist before, but it
22:12
has really come into the forefront in these last
22:14
few years, hasn't it? And so now that it's here
22:18
and now that it's advancing at such a rapid pace,
22:21
are we going to make the same stupid decisions
22:24
and the same mistakes that we did before with
22:27
this? And I'm afraid that the answer is yes.
22:31
And so when you when you talk about AI literacy,
22:33
I think that that's sort of like I think those
22:36
are those are some of the founded sort of the
22:39
building blocks that we use to hopefully get
22:41
it right or to do better. And so to me, AI literacy
22:46
is the like the information and the skills that
22:50
are necessary to navigate AI responsibly and
22:55
effectively so that we can. survive and thrive
22:58
in this future AI world where there's going to
23:00
be so much AI influence on everything so that
23:04
we can make those smart decisions and we can
23:06
decide, do I want AI to do this or not? What
23:09
are the implications of if I let AI do this,
23:13
what are the pros and cons of that? What am I
23:16
willing to trade? Because with everything, there's
23:19
a transaction happening. Isn't there when it
23:22
comes to human versus AI when we let AI do something
23:25
we are gaining something But we're also losing
23:28
something and so we I think we've got to be more
23:31
aware of all of that stuff Gosh, I totally forgot
23:34
what the original question was. I probably better
23:36
stop there So well, that's great because you
23:37
focused on the human part of that like I think
23:40
yeah You know, which I think is really really
23:43
important Yeah, I I think it is too in what like
23:48
you had mentioned the the building blocks of.
23:52
So I kind of want to just give you a scenario
23:55
here and for our next question. And so we know
24:00
that, you know, just looking regionally, we have
24:04
a lot of schools that have their teachers have
24:08
implemented AI in a variety of ways or they have.
24:11
you know, at least the like the beginnings of
24:14
an AI guidance plan, or they've they've worked
24:16
it into their, you know, acceptable use policy
24:19
and all those type of things. And we have some
24:21
that just don't even know where to begin. But
24:24
if you were just looking, so let's say that you
24:26
were the superintendent of a school, and your
24:29
your your school had not come into contact with
24:33
AI at all yet. But you you know, know all you
24:38
know about AI. and you were to look at, okay,
24:41
you have your teachers and you have your students.
24:44
And so what would be the foundational AI concept
24:48
that you would introduce to them to help them
24:52
wrap their head around it and maybe even a use
24:55
case of it that regardless of grade level or
24:59
subject, where would you start them out in what
25:02
you think would be like the safest way and a
25:07
good way to introduce it? to them. You got like
25:11
three hours to talk about this because we might
25:15
need it. No I mean well I guess you said where
25:18
would we start right and so I think for me and
25:22
I think again I think lots of folks are starting
25:25
to get the cart before the horse so to speak.
25:28
I think before we get into before we get into
25:32
the whole concept of what can it do for you and
25:36
how can it help in everything? I think we've
25:38
got to have that foundational AI literacy piece
25:41
in place. I really do. You know, so that we understand,
25:45
so that we understand the outputs, so that we
25:48
understand the implications behind it and everything
25:50
like, so we've got to, we've got to get into,
25:53
you know, like What is AI and how does it come
25:56
up with its responses? And how does it become
25:58
artificially intelligent? And where is it getting
26:00
this stuff? And if I asked to create a lesson
26:05
for me, which way is it going to lean? Or how
26:08
can I keep an eye on like which way it's going
26:11
to lean so that I know that it's leaning? You
26:13
know, it's that sort of like that bias piece
26:15
and everything. Like, I think we've got to get
26:18
some of that stuff in place. And then whenever
26:22
teachers have an understanding of what some of
26:24
those bigger implications are, then when we start
26:27
to see what it can do and the use cases and everything,
26:32
we're a little bit better equipped to do so ethically,
26:35
responsibly, to benefit our students, to preserve
26:40
our humanity and everything. So I think if I
26:44
were the superintendent, I would love to start
26:46
out by making sure that somebody who is well
26:51
equipped to do it could give my staff a general
26:54
idea of what AI literacy is all about. What is
26:58
it capable of? What does it do? And then we can
27:01
start to get into some of those use cases. Yeah,
27:06
so I think that's probably where I would start.
27:09
Okay, so in some conversations that I've had
27:13
recently with teachers, and maybe this is getting
27:16
a little bit past the basic foundational AI literacy,
27:22
but teachers are very afraid that students are
27:25
going to use AI as a place where they can just
27:29
sit and get information. Yep. and not really
27:33
have to engage with it, not have to analyze it,
27:36
evaluate it, and just use it to cheat. But, you
27:41
know, I don't, when I tried to present this to
27:44
them as well, I said, well, there's also, you
27:46
know, some very, some great ways that you can
27:50
go through this process of analysis. And then
27:52
they said, yeah, but cheating. Yeah, yeah. And
27:55
then you have a cheating, you know, but it can
27:58
also be that creative. thought partner and that
28:01
that that's gonna challenge your ideas play the
28:04
devil's advocate and actually get you to explore
28:07
your own perceptions of the content that you're
28:10
dealing with in in much in much greater capacity
28:13
and much more critically than you could do without
28:16
it right you know so like how do we how do we
28:20
handle that type of conversation with those teachers
28:24
that this is just a cheating tool I've had so
28:27
many conversations about this and it's, yeah.
28:32
Well, no, and it's, it's fine. Cause it's something
28:34
that we, we definitely have to talk about. And
28:36
there's so many folks out there that haven't,
28:40
that haven't gotten, I know that, that haven't
28:43
kind of like built up their understanding of
28:46
it and what it's capable of and where we could
28:48
go with it. So I think one of the first things
28:50
that we have to do here, Here's my big picture
28:53
to my answer. We're going to tear it all down
28:55
and then we're going to build it back up. OK,
28:57
so let's start by tearing it all down and let's
29:00
just say. AI can answer things for your students
29:05
and they can sit and get and they can ask it
29:08
to do a lot of the work that we've asked them
29:11
to do, and it can write essays. And the problem
29:14
is is a part of the problem, at least if we want
29:16
to try to maintain the status quo, is that AI
29:19
detectors are terrible. at it, at identifying
29:22
that they've done it. And even if you do use
29:25
an AI detector, like what is it really detecting?
29:28
Is it detecting that AI has done the whole thing?
29:30
What if they used it to help them reword a couple
29:34
of paragraphs? What if they used it to write
29:35
a sentence or to get an idea? It's like, you
29:38
know, it's not just a black and white, did you
29:40
use AI or didn't use AI? There's a whole bunch
29:42
of nuance in the middle. And we got to be able
29:45
to identify all that. So now we've broken it
29:48
all down, right? It's like, you are, you know,
29:52
you are helpless against whether students have
29:56
used AI or not, you are helpless. Okay, we can't
30:00
punish, we can't like, you know, we can't punish
30:03
it away is what I'm trying to say. Because once
30:06
you start to try to punish on something that
30:07
you don't have confidence that students have
30:11
done, it just starts to ruin the whole thing.
30:14
So we just break it all down. In fact, whenever
30:16
I do AI keynotes, sometimes I'll talk about this
30:19
stuff and I'll be like, so let's recap for a
30:21
second. Students can use it. They have used it.
30:24
They will use it. And we don't have an AI detector
30:26
to detect that they've used it. So we're good,
30:28
right? And they all chuckle. It's like a nervous
30:32
chuckle. I'm like, so I can just walk off to
30:34
a standing ovation at this point and my job is
30:36
done, right? No. And then that's where we start
30:39
to build it all back up, right? And so we say,
30:43
if we assume, if we understand that this is the
30:48
world that we live in right now, then let's pick
30:52
up the pieces and start to rebuild this thing.
30:54
How do we go about it? you know, a couple of
30:58
the things that I think are important. For one,
31:01
I think we need to start to model how it can
31:04
be used effectively and responsibly instead of
31:07
trying to punish the cheating cheaters. because
31:09
we spend a lot of time trying to punish the cheating
31:11
cheaters. There was one time I did a workshop
31:14
at a school district in Michigan, I think, and
31:19
the Dean of Students was in the back of the room
31:21
and I started talking about AI and at one point
31:23
he raised his hand and even stood up and he was
31:25
like, let me tell you about all of the things
31:27
we've put into our policy to punish students
31:30
for using AI irresponsibly. And I'm like, there's
31:33
so many things I need to tell you right now to
31:36
tear all of this down. but we have a workshop
31:39
to do. And so, you know, I think that's one of
31:43
the things we need to start to do is it's like,
31:47
if we have lost control over our ability to punish
31:51
the cheaters, then I think what we, one of our
31:56
only, maybe our only recourse is to try to model
32:01
how it's used effectively and responsibly. Some
32:04
people will call me a Pollyanna for thinking
32:06
and looking through rose -colored glasses and
32:08
for being too much of an optimist or whatever.
32:10
But I like to think of it this way, that if we
32:12
start to show them how it should be used and
32:15
how it can be used and how it's great when it's
32:18
used this way, we have a better chance. It's
32:21
kind of like the tide and the harbor. What happens
32:24
when the tide comes into the harbor? All ships
32:27
rise, right? And so all we're trying to do at
32:30
this point is we're trying to flood classrooms
32:34
with these ways that it can be used effectively
32:37
and responsibly so that students aren't just
32:40
getting practice with and information about how
32:44
it can be used to avoid thinking. Instead, let's
32:47
use them how it can amplify their thinking, how
32:50
it can answer questions in the moment, how it
32:52
can push their thinking, how it can give them
32:55
creative ideas so they can run with it as a human.
32:57
And once they start to see some of that, then
33:01
I think that's our best course of action because
33:04
what's the alternative? The alternative is trying
33:08
to punish kids for using a technology that we
33:11
can't detect. And it's gonna get harder and harder
33:13
and harder to detect. And this is why at the
33:16
beginning, sorry, you got me on a soap box here.
33:18
I'm like, go on this. But like, that's why I
33:20
said at the beginning that we're gonna have to
33:23
have some serious thoughts about what we're trying
33:26
to do here in the first place. because so much
33:29
of traditional education has been about right
33:34
answers and wrong answers on a multiple choice
33:36
test. And go home and write an essay about this
33:40
thing and turn it in in class the next day. And
33:43
if students don't see relevance in that stuff,
33:48
They're gonna outsource their attention to something
33:52
else so that they can put their attention on
33:53
something else. They're not gonna spend their
33:55
time and effort on something that they think
33:57
is totally irrelevant. So we're gonna have to
34:00
start rethinking a lot of this stuff. That's
34:03
part of the reason that I wanted to go back in
34:04
the classroom is because I wanna be part of the
34:07
solution. I wanna try to figure out along with
34:09
everybody else how we do this in real classrooms
34:11
and real schools. stepping down off of us. Yeah
34:15
but I think you touched on another important
34:18
thing here too that great teachers have always
34:20
done regardless of the technology involved is
34:23
model for their students right and you know and
34:26
I think that same thing is true with AI. If a
34:30
great teacher can get in front of their students
34:32
and show them how they use AI in a way to like,
34:36
hey get kids. Last year I did this lesson plan,
34:39
it was like this, you know. Then this year I
34:42
had, I'm going to try this AI infused lesson
34:46
to up my game here a little bit and it gave me
34:49
some great ideas and then I analyzed it. I looked
34:52
at it and I said this part here I think is going
34:54
to work. This part will work if I change these
34:57
parts and this part I'm just going to throw away
35:00
because you know it just doesn't fit my style
35:02
or it won't fit the needs of my learners you
35:04
know but they're so if you model for students
35:07
I think how you use it professionally I model
35:10
how I use it personally as well like I show people
35:13
when I talk about AI my chat GPT history and
35:16
if it isn't related to education technology in
35:19
some way it's a recipe or a cooking technique
35:22
or you know the latest thing that I'm trying.
35:25
So and I think you know that's just another great
35:28
way to show how it you know how all that can
35:32
be brought together and it's not just a sit and
35:34
get kind of a thing where you're looking for
35:37
to to offload your thinking like you discussed
35:40
but as a way to elevate your thinking. Yeah,
35:43
I think that's so powerful. That idea of, let
35:46
me, and this is something I've talked about this
35:48
in presentations and keynote speeches too. So
35:51
we're like on the same wavelength here that one
35:53
of the most powerful things we can do as teachers,
35:55
I think is to talk about how we've used it ourselves.
35:58
It's just to be a user of the technology and
36:02
talk about our own experience. And the great
36:03
thing about that, you don't need a computer science
36:06
degree, right? You don't need to be a coder.
36:10
You don't need to work for an AI company. You
36:13
don't need any of that. You don't need any sort
36:14
of special training. You just need to be trained
36:17
in your content area and be a responsible human
36:21
and talk about what you like about it and what
36:23
you don't like about it and how you would use
36:25
it and how you wouldn't use it. And that's I
36:28
think if teachers are just willing to do that
36:30
just every once in a while, just whenever it
36:33
comes up in conversation. But of course, if they're
36:36
going to do that, they need to have some of those
36:39
fundamental understandings about how it works
36:41
so that if it comes up in conversation in class,
36:44
they can have an informed two minute discussion
36:48
about why you should or shouldn't use it and
36:50
here's why based on the actual facts instead
36:54
of what they learned from that video they watched
36:58
on Facebook that may or may not be totally legit.
37:02
So yeah, I think that's I think that's spot on.
37:05
Yeah. And there's a there's a little bit of irony
37:07
too, with that, you know, we go around and we're
37:10
training teachers on how to use these professionally.
37:13
But there's some irony there when it comes to
37:16
the student use. And then we're all of a sudden
37:18
like, Oh, no, you cannot, you know, not allowed.
37:21
And so that there's a little bit of a disconnect
37:24
there with that. It's so true. Like I've done
37:27
workshops before and like in the morning, we'll
37:29
talk about the things you can do as teachers.
37:31
And they're like, this is great. I got to do
37:33
this. I can't believe it'll do all this stuff
37:35
for us. And then the afternoon will be like,
37:37
what about the students? Oh, no, I don't want
37:38
them to do that. Right. But I think, I think
37:41
it's important to have those conversations too,
37:43
because, you know, and there's nuance in all
37:46
of that, I think, right? Like we want students
37:49
to be prepared and everything, but we also know
37:52
that some of the things that AI can do for them.
37:55
will do the tasks that help them to learn the
37:59
skills. And so if they don't do those tasks,
38:02
if they don't wrestle with those things, they
38:04
don't develop the human skills. They don't develop
38:06
as humans. So at first, I was kind of of the
38:10
thought that, you know, if it's good for the
38:12
teachers, it's good for the students. But then
38:14
I also realized that the teachers are adults
38:17
that have developed certain skills and abilities
38:20
to think. because they've done the work, they've
38:23
wrestled with the content, they've thought about
38:25
it, they've done those tasks and so I think there's
38:27
got to be some nuance and it's tough. This is
38:30
why it's so hard for us as educators is because
38:33
we want them to be AI literate and we want them
38:35
to understand what it can do but we also know
38:37
that sometimes we have to do some very rudimentary
38:40
human thinking and work that doesn't have anything
38:43
to do with AI so we can develop ourselves as
38:45
humans and so it's tricky. but there is definitely
38:48
a duality there isn't there between the teachers
38:51
are like oh this is great but not for the students
38:53
this is great for me but it's not great for them
38:56
right yeah um so and so much of this too lends
39:01
itself to districts making decisions around ai
39:04
and we so you know i know this is kind of going
39:07
around everywhere um you know through just looking
39:10
at our state and some of the groups that are
39:12
doing some great things with AI guidance. You
39:15
know, even particularly at the state level, like,
39:19
you know, here in Minnesota, we have the Minnesota
39:21
Department of Education, obviously, and they've
39:23
put together guiding principles on AI. We have
39:27
started to, with our region, try to take those
39:32
and offer districts that have no idea where to
39:35
start some sort of template to work off of. and
39:39
to get started in that process. One of the things
39:44
and I actually Jeremy and I were talking about
39:45
this before before the interview began and you
39:48
know there's I think one of the essential parts
39:52
is that the the district has to have internal
39:55
people that are making the decisions around AI
39:59
you know especially from our vantage point because
40:02
we are kind of an outside we're an outside entity
40:06
we we assist school districts but we they're
40:09
ultimately the decision makers, you know, with
40:11
a lot of this stuff. So I'd be curious what your
40:14
perspective is, when you look at, you know, a
40:17
district and how, how they should start having
40:20
conversations around AI guidance. What do you
40:23
think their key priorities should be when trying
40:27
to develop some of that? And you could take that
40:30
wherever you want, because there's so many things
40:32
that obviously go into that with teachers and
40:34
students and admin and all that. But floor is
40:37
open so whatever however you think about that
40:39
yeah i mean here we go again you got another
40:42
three hours like we get right like you're exactly
40:45
right we could talk about this for a long time
40:48
um i think let me do a little bit of big picture
40:51
and then we do a little bit of a very practical
40:54
and um and focused so the big picture one of
40:58
the big things and One of you alluded to this
41:01
earlier, I can't remember who it was, but I think
41:04
we've really got to think, I think we've really
41:06
got to look at school and our classrooms and
41:08
everything through our tomorrow glasses. This
41:11
is my analogy that I used in my book, AI for
41:14
Educators. And so, you know, tomorrow glasses
41:16
is this idea that, you know, a lot of times we're
41:20
looking at, our lesson plans and our activities
41:23
and our school policies and everything that we're
41:26
doing in class through the lens of today. Like
41:28
how do we prepare students for the way the world
41:30
is today? The needs of the workforce today, like
41:32
what's going on today? Today's technology, right?
41:35
And of course, the problem with that is that
41:37
their future isn't based on today. It's based
41:40
on tomorrow, right? It's based on the tomorrow
41:42
five, 10, 15, 20 years down the road. And if
41:45
we prepare them for today, especially with as
41:48
fast as the way that we see the future is changing,
41:53
as fast as it's changing, we can't look at school
41:55
through our today glasses anymore. We've got
41:58
to look at it through our tomorrow glasses. Now
42:00
there have been some schools and school districts
42:01
that have done a good job at this, but I don't
42:03
feel like enough of them have. And so that's
42:06
that idea of looking at it through the lens of,
42:10
let's look at trends. Let's look at the way that
42:13
the technology is developing. Let's look at the
42:14
way that innovative companies are already starting
42:18
to use things like AI today. And let's start
42:21
to extrapolate that forward. Let's start to look
42:24
forward at how might this change things in five,
42:28
10, 15, 20 years in the workforce? And what can
42:31
we do right now to prepare students for that
42:34
future? That's the idea of looking through at
42:38
learning and at school through our tomorrow glasses.
42:41
And I think if we do that, we start to change
42:45
what our priorities are a little bit. The other
42:49
trick with that too, I think is that, when we
42:53
start to look out, when we start to extrapolate
42:55
this stuff out and look at what the world looks
42:58
like five, 10, 15, 20 years from now, if we're
43:00
looking all the way out here, looking through
43:03
your tomorrow glasses is, fuzzy and out of focus
43:07
and you're bound to make mistakes, right? So
43:10
you've got to get into that mindset. I think
43:12
that we're going to try to prepare them for this
43:15
future. We're going to try to predict it as best
43:17
as we can. And we're going to try to be proactive
43:19
and try to look at everything that we can from
43:23
our instructional materials to our curriculum,
43:26
to the way that we train our teachers, to our
43:28
mission statement and our guiding principles
43:30
and our portrait of a graduate and all of that
43:33
stuff. We're going to try to look at all of that
43:34
stuff through what we believe it's going to be
43:39
like. We're going to make our best case. And
43:42
because if we do this, we've got a better chance
43:46
of preparing students for that future than if
43:49
we try to prepare them for today. So like I said,
43:51
that's the big, the great big picture idea of,
43:55
you know, like, what do we do? How do we prepare?
43:59
If I was a superintendent, you know, I think
44:02
that would be, I would have... you know, a set
44:05
of tomorrow glasses, whatever that looks like.
44:07
I've actually got, I bought something off of
44:09
Amazon. They're like this little LED lit up.
44:12
Almost looks like, you know, from Star Trek,
44:14
there was like that band that guy had around
44:16
his, his eyes and everything. It looks a little
44:18
bit like that. And I'd like have that plastered
44:21
on my wall in front of my desk, just as my constant
44:24
reminder every day that we're not preparing kids
44:27
for today, we're preparing them for tomorrow.
44:30
Now, real quick. I'll bring it down into the
44:33
much more practical, like what do we do? How
44:35
do we do that? Let's start to look at AI literacy
44:39
resources. There's a ton of really good stuff
44:42
all over the place and there's more coming out
44:43
every day. So it's like, what are little ways
44:45
that we can do that? We're going to model. how
44:48
to talk about AI in the course in the context
44:52
of our curriculum, of our lessons. So like if
44:55
you're teaching English class, let's talk about,
44:58
well, if you used AI to do this, how would it
45:00
be responsible and how wouldn't it be responsible?
45:02
If you're teaching government, it's like, you
45:05
know, here's an issue related to government where
45:08
AI is going to be a part of the decision -making
45:10
and do we want AI as a part of this? Like one
45:14
example I always go back to is like, AI powered
45:17
unmanned drones, like military drones. If AI
45:23
can decide to go in and neutralize a target without
45:26
any human decision, are we okay with that? That's
45:30
an ethical decision that we have to make related
45:32
to AI. And so it's like, the more that you pull
45:34
that into the classroom in the day to day, I
45:36
think it helps to start build that. of knowing
45:40
how to talk about it and how to think about it.
45:42
I think we've also got to look at, from an organizational
45:46
perspective, we got to look at the tools that
45:48
we're going to use and the tools that we aren't
45:51
going to use. And it's just like EdTech before,
45:54
only lots of new stuff. And we have to decide
45:57
what is in line with our mission and with what
46:00
our teachers are trying to do and with what we're
46:02
trying to equip our students with. And so I think
46:04
it comes down to those decision -making, you
46:07
know, doing pilot programs to make sure that
46:11
teachers are actually going to use them. I don't
46:14
know. Yeah, sorry, it sounded. It sounds like
46:18
a lot of what you're talking about is like within
46:21
a classroom. A lot of it. So much of the AI decisions
46:25
are with students happening at really at the
46:28
micro level like you're making all these micro
46:31
decisions that eventually your hope is then going
46:34
back to your big picture. You're hoping that
46:36
as they. get out of school and they're using
46:39
these things, they already have a framework which
46:42
to work off of on proper use and like the ethical
46:46
decisions part that you mentioned too. Yes. Yeah,
46:50
and I, you identified it right there. I think
46:52
one of the best ways to teach that is not by
46:55
coming up with a two week canned curriculum that
46:59
you hand to the technology teacher about artificial
47:01
intelligence. Because then it's done in a silo
47:04
and you don't see the connection or the correlation,
47:06
anything else. Like, yeah, let's talk about machine
47:08
learning. Let's talk about neural networks. Let's
47:10
talk about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And
47:11
then the kids are like, okay, done. Let's put
47:13
that on the shelf and move on to everything else.
47:15
No. I'm a big proponent of embedded AI literacy,
47:20
where we embed it in the classes, where we prepare
47:22
student or sorry, where we prepare teachers to
47:25
lead those little micro conversations, just like
47:27
you were mentioning, those little micro conversations
47:29
in the context of what we're learning. And when
47:33
we start to do that, we start to see how it's
47:35
actually applied to our day to day lives. And
47:37
I think that's way, way more valuable. Awesome.
47:42
So, Matt, you know, I'm going to bring a little
47:44
bit of closer to the end here. You know, as David
47:48
mentioned at the at the beginning here, you're
47:51
going to be delivering the keynote for the AI
47:53
and Education Virtual Symposium, which is going
47:56
to be hosted by Southwest West Central Service
47:59
Cooperative, which is David's organization, as
48:02
well as their aid group. You know, what kind
48:07
of messages do you hope attendees are going to
48:09
take away from that keynote presentation of yours?
48:12
And you know, what might they look forward to?
48:14
Yeah, I think this conversation is kind of like
48:18
a preview to what some of it may be. We'll talk
48:21
a little bit about what AI is and what its implications
48:25
are in education, some practical use cases of
48:29
how it should work, and then also some things
48:30
that you got to be careful of that we got to
48:33
be cautious of and what we can do to help prepare
48:36
those students going forward. That's kind of
48:39
been my bread and butter when it comes to a lot
48:41
of these AI conversations. And so I think if
48:44
you're going to be there for that virtual keynote,
48:47
then I think those are the kinds of things that
48:50
you're probably prepared to hear about, but also
48:54
to discuss too, to have a part in the conversation
48:58
as well. That's great. So now we know that that's
49:01
on your calendar here in the relatively near
49:04
future, but I'm a big fan of Hot Ones and I love
49:09
how Sean Evans at the end of Hot Ones goes, the
49:13
cameras are yours. What sort of things would
49:16
you like to plug? Do you want to share contact
49:19
information? Any social media things and we'd
49:22
be glad to share them in the description of the
49:24
show notes. There's definitely. Three things,
49:28
we'll limit it to three things. How about that?
49:30
There's three things that I would love to direct
49:33
folks to. One of them is my email newsletter.
49:36
It comes out two times a week, full of lots of
49:39
practical teaching ideas. A lot of times I talk
49:42
about AI. Some of the AI tools that are out there
49:44
are some things that you need to be aware of.
49:47
And so at that link right down there, ditch .link
49:50
slash join, that'll get you subscribed to the
49:54
newsletter. And you also get some freebies and
49:56
some free teaching ideas. ideas just as soon
49:58
as you join too. So that's one. The next one
50:01
is for school leaders. And this is anybody that's
50:05
helping to guide. you know, like decision -making
50:08
related to AI. I started this new newsletter
50:13
called AI for Admins. And it's not just for admins,
50:16
it's for, you know, like teachers that are helping
50:18
with the decision -making process and all that
50:19
too. But that's a weekly newsletter that just,
50:22
you know, goes over a wide variety of topics
50:24
related to AI to try to help, you know, give
50:27
you some things to think about so that you can
50:29
get it right. And then the last thing, and this
50:31
is something that one of you guys alluded to
50:33
earlier. was the Digital Learning Podcast that
50:37
I co -host with Holly Clark. Holly and I have
50:40
been on a little bit of an unintentional hiatus.
50:43
We're a little behind on the podcast, but we
50:45
want to get it going again here pretty soon.
50:47
But you can go to digitallearningpodcast .com
50:49
to listen to that and to subscribe if you're
50:52
interested in discussion about blended learning,
50:55
ed tech, getting that right, along with lots
50:57
of discussion about AI. So I'd say those are
50:59
a couple of places that you could definitely
51:01
go. Matt, thanks again. This has been an incredibly
51:06
valuable conversation, and we appreciate your
51:08
time and sharing your expertise on AI and education
51:12
and what that looks like for teachers and schools.
51:15
For those listening, don't miss out on this incredible
51:17
opportunity to dive deeper into these topics,
51:20
connect with other educators, and hear Matt's
51:22
keynote at our AI and Education Virtual Symposium
51:26
on May 16th. 2025 that is presented by SWWC and
51:31
our aid group. The event is completely online
51:34
and it has a post event on demand access and
51:38
includes breakout sessions covering practical
51:41
tools and guidance for effective AI use in classrooms
51:44
across school districts. Matt, thanks again for
51:47
joining us and we look forward to hearing your
51:50
keynote session. Yeah, thanks guys. Appreciate
51:52
it.