Latest / Radio 831: A Romance Podcast / Monster Romance 101, Rosie Danan on Vampires in Villain Edit, and SeaWorld Goes Dark Romance

Transcript

Monster Romance 101, Rosie Danan on Vampires in Villain Edit, and SeaWorld Goes Dark Romance · Radio 831: A Romance Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Radio 831 podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: We're your hosts, Sanjana Bhaskar and Tyler McCall. And we're
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: so excited to talk everything romance from the novels and
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: the tropes to the book to screen adaptations. And of course,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: the drama of it all, you know, unpacking what the
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: genre says about who we are and how we love.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: It is the middle of October. It is spooky season,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: as the people say. And the reason for the season,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: I feel, when it comes to romance this time of
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: year is monster romance, which I know is a subject
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: that you are very, very passionate about.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: I am indeed.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: And a subject that I know next to nothing about.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I have never read a monster romance. I am aware
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: of it as a concept. It bubbles up into my
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: universe every now and then. But it is not something
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I've dabbled in. And I know that we have planned
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: a very exciting couple episodes revolving around topics in monster romance.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: But I want to kick it off by giving you
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to sell me on monster romance.
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: You have the floor.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: And this is something that you have dabbled in with
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: me via text message and TikTok DM.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: And I have.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Played coy about it, but I'm playing coy no longer.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: I have my wallet on the table. I am prepared
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: to buy. I am prepared to purchase today. Sanj, do
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: you want to sell me on Monster Romance today?
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: I do indeed. I want to start by asking, what
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: do you define as a monster? And this is a
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: really hard question, actually. It may not seem like it,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: but it really is.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Like a fictional creature, like a non-human fictional creature.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Does that feel right?
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Do you have examples of what they might be? Vampires.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I want to say werewolves, but I'm worried our werewolves
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: and our omegas, you know what, that's a different, we're
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: going to have to get into that another day. But
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: like werewolves, Frankenstein monster, ghosts, but is ghost paranormal? Like
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: what's the overlap between paranormal and monster?
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing, right? Monstersness is a slippery, uncertain, ambiguous
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: quality by nature. It's not just a fixture of like,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: No one has quite figured it out yet. That is
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: what it is. It is slippery. It is hard to define.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: It is ambiguous in nature because monsters themselves are cultural products,
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: like exports of certain human anxieties about how we are
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: in the world. And they can be the way that
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: we think about monsters in the real world, right? Like
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: predators and violent people and people we find to be
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: threatening and scary. And they can also be these like
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: fictional beasties. In the context of monster romance, we're often
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: looking at fictional beasties. But those beasts themselves symbolize and
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: have long symbolized our very human anxieties about other things, right?
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Like aliens, for example, are a product of a cultural
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: fear of the outsider invading our home, occupying our bodies,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: taking up our space. Like it captures all of these
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: like xenophobic anxieties our culture has about the invading immigrant
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: other or orcs and minotaurs as symbols of this like
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: racialized other or we can keep going on with different
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: species and I don't think this is like a one-to-one
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: of like this symbolizes X. This is just a series
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: of convenient examples but I think part of the reason
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: why it's so challenging to define what a monster is
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: is because they resist tidy description and That's partially why
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I think that they are worth writing about and reading
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: about in the context of romance, because I find them
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: to be such rich sites of cultural excavation. And we've
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: talked a lot about romance as a cultural product. When
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: you are telling a story about a monster, you are
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: telling a story about a human, about a monster, about
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: a world, about a culture. And so I find that
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: the monster romance that I've read has become so.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Intellectually generative for me in a way that I wasn't
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: expecting when I first started. I mean, maybe I should
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: have expected it. Frankenstein by Mary Shelley is one of
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: my favorite books of all time. Wuthering Heights is like
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: one of the books that formed me as a person.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: When Robert Eggers wrote Nosferatu, which is one of my
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: favorite movies of all time, he talked a lot about
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: how he read Wuthering Heights in preparation for the movie
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: because Wuthering Heights is the original demon lover romance which
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: yeah that is a pretty astute observation of how Heathcliff
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: works in that both as a racialized other and as
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: a person I think on the sort of surface level
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: monsters are interesting because they are such rich capacious symbols
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: and when you read a monster story it is hard
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: not to sit with the messaging of it for a
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: long time But I wanted to start there by being like,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: we can't define what monsters are because we both make
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: them and we feel that they come from outside of us.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: And to get a little bit more specific about defining terms,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: when I talk about monster romance, I am often talking
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: about creatures that have uncertain bodily properties. So I don't
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: generally speaking include witches, werewolves, and vampires within the category
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: of monster romance. I'm more likely... This is more of
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: a personal definition than like an academic one, because the
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: body of the werewolf, the vampire and the witch is
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: so familiar and humanoid. But I think a huge part
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: of the appeal of the monster, especially in monster romance,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: which is interested in exploring how the body moves, is
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: the uncertainty of it. The uncertainty of the physical form,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: the malleability of the physical form. I'm more likely to
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: say Krakens and orcs and what else? What other?
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: I didn't even know Krakens was an option.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, Krakens are totally an option.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: I forgot about Krakens.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: There's a Katie Robert Kraken romance.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: I totally forgot that was an option.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: There's something about the strangeness that is like the vehicle
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: for interest. You watched the animated Beauty and the Beast
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: as a child? I'm guessing. Oh, yeah.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that thing got worn out.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Were you among the scores of women who were like, man,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: he looked better as a beast than he did as
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: a human prince? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, dog. For me, the
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: appeal is, one, as Gemini, I love a slippery, uncertain,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: ambiguous creature. Two, I think that oftentimes when women read monsters,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: they see in them a capacity for freakishness that we
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: crave in ourselves. Not to be self-insert about it, but
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: I think that's often the case. And I also think
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: that it's really interesting to think about how our own
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: ideas of desire and pleasure can be divorced from traditional
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: humanoid forms that Our capacity for desire far extends beyond
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: such like simple rules of like penis is hot. Like
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: there's the bodily strangeness is like a huge feature of
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: what I think makes monstrousness so interesting to me. Yeah.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Damn. See, I wasn't prepared for all that.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Look, one thing about me, I'm going to get a
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: little theoretical with it.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: And I love that about you.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Like my instinct as someone who lives in the world
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: is like, well, I think about people as being monstrous
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: as well. And like I sort of immediately kind of
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: drew a connection to dark romances where you have people
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: who are fully human who are doing terrible, horrible things
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: to each other in some way. And that feels monstrous.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: I know like it's not quite the same, but they're
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: close enough. They're like touching enough for me that it's
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: like sort of a different scenario where it's interesting that
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: in actual monster romances, you have these very cozy, very safe,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: feeling settings for these sort of extreme versions of bodies.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: And then you have normal human bodies in these sort
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: of extreme dangerous situations. And it's not to say that
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: like monster romance can't be without a certain flavor of fear.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: I'm also even thinking about books like Sing Me to
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Sleep by R.M. Virtues, which is a sleep paralysis demon
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: and the woman who's dreaming of him. Incredible premise. Or
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: there's also a similar setup between a succubus and a
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: human woman in Demon Lover by Heather Gare. Also, I
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: think you would be surprised by how the sweetness and
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: tenderness of the characters being written about can at times
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: offset the like uncanny strangeness of the body. Yeah. It's interesting.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Or even like, turn that uncanny strangeness of the body
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: into a desirable property. I'm thinking about Found by the
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Lake Monster by Lillian Lark, in which there is fully
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: an aviposition scene for the uninitiated. It's egg implantation. And
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I'm actually not going to say anything more than that.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: You don't need to know more than that.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: Because I think you should just read it. It's a
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: great book. It's really sweet. It's very, it's really lovely.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: I would highly recommend it. And also, it's a little
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: strange and weird and freaky.
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm really excited to get into all this over
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: the next couple of episodes.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: And actually, we're going to start by getting into it
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: with the really lovely Rosie Dannon. We're not talking strictly
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: speaking about monsters. We're talking about vampires. But it is
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: October and it is vampire season. It would be irresponsible,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: dare I say, for us not to be discussing the
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: cultural impact of vampires in this time. Rosie Dannen is
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: the author of several books that you've probably read, like
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: The Roommate, Do Your Worst, Fan Service, All Wrapped Up
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: in You. My favorite is The Intimacy Experiment and The
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Villain Edit, which I thoroughly adored. It is a romance
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: novel about a vampire crown prince in exile in a
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: retirement community in California who has been tasked with controlling
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: his thirst and his love story with the granddaughter of
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: the woman whose house he's subletting from, who is an
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: ex-reality TV producer who sees him and thinks, hmm, he'd
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: be a perfect candidate for my Bachelor-esque TV show and
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: maybe will get me back in the good graces of
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: my boss. So it's a really fun setup. And I
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: also just like really love Rosie's writing. So I'm excited
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: to talk to her about vampires in our world. culture
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: and outside of them. Rosie, welcome to the pod. I'm
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: so excited to be talking to you about vampires today.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Vampires and monsters, but vampires specifically because of your upcoming book,
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Villain Edit, which is like, first of all, such a
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: spectacular premise. Okay, can I just start by doing a
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: little bit of light fangirling? I think one of the
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: things I love best about your work is your capacity
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: for writing about kind of a crazy premise with like
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: so much tenderness and specific intimacy. And when I saw
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: the pitch for Villain Edit where I was like, okay,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: reality TV, wild, check. Vampire Crown Prince, wild, check. The
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: set up for it feels like it should be something
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: so outrageous. And it's not that you don't make use
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: of those elements, but ultimately you tell such a loving
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: story about a vampire crown prince and an ex-reality TV producer.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: And I just, I got to start with, how did
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: you do that?
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: I love this question because I think that you really
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: have summarized me as a writer. Like, I think those
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: are sort of the hallmarks that I think of when
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: I I'm trying to put together a project. And when
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: I walk away from a project and see what I'm
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: left with, it's like, I like a wild premise. Like,
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: I like for it to feel kind of like a
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: bad idea. Like, oh, maybe nobody should do that. Like,
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: that's the one we're going to take. But then I
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: do think, ultimately, that execution ends up being softer than
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: even I imagined. Like, every time I think I've reached
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: the depth of, like, okay, well, this one can't be, like,
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: more tender. We can't have, like, new depths of, like,
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: feelings to plumb. I think we get there. Like, I
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: think villain edit, which I thought was going to be
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: a lot more, like, sarcastic in tone when I originally
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: pitched it and darker, ends up being... very full-hearted. And
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: I think the reason it happens is I think that
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: my characters end up representing for one another the thing
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: that the other character fears most. So each love interest
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: is sort of the personification of the main character's worst
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: fears come to life. And I think that contributes to
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: the plot in the sense that it feels very like
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: loud and aggressive and makes the main character very uncomfortable.
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: So for villain edit, for example, Gabriel is a crown prince.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: He is prophesied to lose control. His prophecy is that
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: his thirst will be his undoing, which I felt like
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: was like properly ceremonial and big. So the thing that
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: he fears is one, humans, because they thirst for human blood.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: And then two, this idea that he could meet a
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: human that would make him lose sight of all the
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: responsibilities and all the training that he's had his whole
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: life to assume the vampire throne. And then for Harper,
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: who's our reality TV producer, her fear, and it's a
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: little bit more recently seeded, is that she is going
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: to lose everything because she gets too close to someone.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: And I think her fear there is, She has internalized
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: this idea that she is so manipulative that she can
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: actually turn people so bad that they become true villains.
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: And again, I think that contributes to a lot of
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: plot scaffolding, that they have to confront those things and
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: they have to navigate getting close to someone that represents
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: both what they want and what they fear. But then
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: I think ultimately the output is very soft because... the
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: real work of confronting your fears is very like quiet
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: and intimate and vulnerable more than anything. I think so
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: much of my work is being interested in vulnerability. And
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: I think that's where a lot of the softness comes from.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: So even when I tried to make it dark, that
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: ends up being the underbelly and that ends up being
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: the execution.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm curious why pick vampires? What is it
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: about their lore specifically that interests you? And like, are
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: you like a paranormal romance reader outside of this?
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: I am a paranormal romance reader. And I think it's
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: very paranormal stories were very foundational for me. Like when
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: I think about like being young and developing my media tastes.
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: there were a lot of, like, paranormal stories. And I
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: don't know if that's just because that was, like, what
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: was popular, but I was watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: I was watching Charmed. I was watching Lena. Like, I
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: was in, like, The Mummy 1999.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: The good stuff.
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: So when I, as a writer, think back to, like,
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: some of my core influences, because I think our childhood tastes, like,
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: end up coming in our work no matter what. Those,
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: I'll have, like, a touch of magic, a lot of them.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: But I think particularly... I'm attracted to the tension between
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: supernatural elements and then very human.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Problems, which I think a lot of those works were.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: More of the grounded paranormal versus total high fantasy or something,
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: which feels more escapist in some ways. I'm interested in
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: the ways that supernatural, either monsters or powers, however it
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: influences the world, forces us to confront our humanity more.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: In terms of like picking vampires, honestly, not something I
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: necessarily set out to do. My last book, Fan Service, had.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: A werewolf hero.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: And that was sort of like a one-off idea. Like
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: it was not this super conscious decision of like, I'm
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: going to write monster romance now. I just had the
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: premise for that of like an actor who used to
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: play a werewolf on TV and starts becoming one years
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: after the show went off air and no one believes him.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: And I thought that was so funny that I just like,
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: was like, please let me write this. And it's after
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: that book is done that I'm, you know, I'm talking
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: to my editor about like, what's, what's my next project.
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: And it was from that perspective, I think sort of
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: a foregone conclusion that I would write more monsters and
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: that like, okay, well we did a werewolf. So now
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: we'll do a vampire. And I originally was like, I
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: don't think I have anything new to say about vampires.
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: And while I was on maternity leave, I had like
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: sold the book, but I hadn't really started working on
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: it yet. I was watching a lot of reality TV
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: and I was like, villain edit, like, oh damn, like
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: that's so good. Somebody should make a paranormal called villain edit.
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: And then I was like, wait, like, it could be me. Yeah.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: And that's where like the whole reality TV and like
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: making the first supernatural sort of Bachelor, if you will,
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: came from. And that I fell in love with. Like,
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: that was like the unlocking for me of like... oh,
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: there is something really interesting about the idea of a
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: vampire that's like conscious of his image and like sort
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: of knowingly marketing himself to be appealing. Like I got
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: really into the meta of that.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I think it's also that, yeah, you're telling a really
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: human story. And also I got to ask you about
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: the blood play scene, which is so personally important to
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: me personally for totally academic and intellectual reasons and no
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: other ones. Gabriel's in a knitting circle and he lives
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: in a retirement community and he's the sweetest ever. And
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: also he thirsts for blood and it's really hot. So, like,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: you're making use of monstrosity in really useful ways.
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: I want the hallmarks of the genre that I love.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: I need to feel like the promise of the premise
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: is being paid off, right? So, like, there needs to
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: be a bite. There needs to be something sexy with
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: blood happening. Like, why else are we doing this? It
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: was a fun challenge, I personally found, because regardless of
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: whether it's a supernatural love interest or not, anytime you're
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: writing a sex scene, you're like, how do I write
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: this so that it's hot and not, like, gross? But
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: I do think it helps that the craving for blood
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: is a very physical sensation, right? So it's like, we've
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: got the scent situation happening, we've got visual markers, so, like,
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: Gabriel's obsessed with cataloging Harper's blushes. And we've got like
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: sound you can hear like heartbeat escalation. So I think
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: all those things sort of, I mean, they do, they
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: mirror desire signals. And then I think at the end
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: of the day, what will we allow this man to
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: get away with because he is a vampire? Because I
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: think the blood boy scene in particular, if that's a
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: human character... and you walk in and see what's happening,
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: I think you're, like, calling the cops. Like, I don't
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: think you're getting away with it, right? But because he's
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: a vampire, we allow for a little grayness in our judgment, right?
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: Between what is sexy and what is potentially disturbing. Or
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: maybe it's disturbing because it's hot. Or hot because it's
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: disturbing a little.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, can I just say, thrilled that you made
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: use of menstruation as a real feature of the text
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: because it's been like Chekhov's period in every vampire romance
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: I've read in a long time where I'm like, everyone's
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: talking about a period, but no one's doing anything about it.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Can we get on that?
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: I had to. I was like, There's no way we
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: can't get into it. I don't know. They had to
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: at least talk about it, right?
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Honestly, it's another case of like, you can't be squeamish.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: We're here to have a good time.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: It's like you signed up for this a little bit.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: If you're doing something interesting, it's probably not going to
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: be for everyone. It's sort of like a piece that
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: I've had to make with myself as a writer.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I've seen enough memes post-Twilight of people being like, Edward
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: yanked Bella's tampon out with his teeth to be like, well,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: show it then. You know, which it doesn't get there specifically,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: but I wouldn't mind. You know, I think we've got
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to be open to being a little bit like, huh,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: question mark. I'm interested.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: And it feels very like patriarchal that even in romance,
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: which we think of as being progressive a lot of
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: the time, like periods are sometimes like off limits or
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: like pause your sexuality or like that part of your
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: connection with your partner. And it felt like vampire is
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: a great time to be like, oh, you're on a period? Like,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: I'm double interested.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be so helpful. So good. It's so good.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: I just will never get tired of reading about a vampire.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: And there's like so many different types of monsters. And
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: I do think there's like kind of like a popularity hierarchy, right?
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: With like vampires and the clear leaders. And then you've
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: got werewolves. And then you've got what? Like witches get
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: like maybe a little bit in there. But I think
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: there's like a lot of room for these like lesser known,
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: like we're seeing more krakens and mermen. And also I
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: think like vampires, a pro and a con is that
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: it's been done so much that there's a lot of
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: like more ironed out lore that you either like choose
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: to opt into or not. Whereas I think about a
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: merman and I'm like, I still don't actually understand the
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: mechanics of there at all. It's open-ended for me.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I love that. What monster would
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: you write next?
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: Okay, so I am writing another monster currently. I will say,
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: this is a pretty big spoiler, but I will say
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: that our ideas about gender and how they intersect with
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: monsters I think is something worth digging into.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: I love that Thank you for coming on, Rosie. This
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: was so lovely. I'm so excited for people to get
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Villanetta in their hands. Gabriel is, oh my God, I
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: want to pinch his cheeks and also more nefarious things,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: but mostly I find him to be the sweetest and
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: I love him. And I so appreciate you coming on
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: and sharing your time and your brain with us. Yes.
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Tyler, I had such a lovely time with Rosie. She
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: is truly so special, so wonderful. I had such a
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: fangirl moment. Speaking of fangirls, I have some interesting stuff
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: to send you today. I'm scared. And I would love
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: to solicit a live reaction from you. If you could
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: check your phone and watch the two TikToks that I've
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: sent you.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: Okay. What have you slid across my desk today?
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I've slid something really interesting across your desk today.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Of the SeaWorld Dark Romance Book Talk Girly Scare Zone,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: as it is called. I... Okay.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: I'm very flustered.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: In a this-is-working-for-you way?
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: This better not awaken anything in me. Yeah, listen, I
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: am in some ways very easy to impress, I guess.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: Tyler, this is not the.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Reaction I was expecting from.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: You at all.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, so actually, now that you mention it, I have
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: a very serious question, which is why the fuck is
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: this at SeaWorld?
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: Correct.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Why is this at SeaWorld?
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Let me explain really quick what this is. SeaWorld... yes,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: of Shamu fame, has opened a book talk girly dark
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: romance scare zone. I don't know if that's the exact,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: every person I've said this to has been like, I
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: know those words separately, but not together. And not together.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: I understand. I was also stunned when I first saw it.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: It is an exhibit of scare actors who are carrying
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: out some dark romance-y kind of vibes. They've got like
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Phantom of the Opera masks on. They have spray painted
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: abs on. Those are not real human abs. They have
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: fluttering black shirts. They're doing the come hither beckon with
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: your fingers. It's a really dubious setup all around. And
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: it is intended to be like a scare zone that
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: draws in tourists. The connection to SeaWorld is tenuous, besides
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: the fact that it's taking place there.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: So we should we should talk about scare actor phenomenon
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: in general.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: I am aware that scare actors are a thing because
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: every September the 1st, my TikTok algorithm starts trying to
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: serve me scare actor content because it is. Listen, it's
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: not wrong that I fit the demographic.
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: I am a millennial white lady who reads romance online.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: I have watched scare actor content. There is one at some,
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: I think it must.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Be like, I know which one you're talking about. I'm
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: unfortunately so locked into him. Yeah, I think so.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: Fry boy is really hot. Fry boy really works for me.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: I don't, I don't understand it conceptually. I don't understand
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: what the point is.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: So fry boy, for those who don't know, I think
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: it's fry boy for those who don't know for like,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: like 45 days out of the year. This man is
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: employed to wander about a theme park with like knee
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: pads and like some kind of hand brace on that
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: have like a coating on them that when he runs
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: at a fast speed, he can drop to his knees
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: and he slides across the ground really fast. As I'm
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: explaining this, it sounds so profoundly unsexy. I actually don't
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: think I could have found– a less sexy way to
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: describe the action of what this is.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: And the other thing that happens to me, and.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Again, I fit the demographic, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: is that Universal Studios has caught on to the dark
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: romance girlies and they have, you know, famously they have
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Halloween Horror Nights. This is a huge, this has been
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: a thing for many, many years.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: I grew up in Florida. I've been to Halloween Horror Nights.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: I can't go anymore because it gives me heart palpitations
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: because I'm 40.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: But in my youth, it was fun.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: And the thing that they have caught on to is
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: having Death Eaters in the Harry Potter section makes certain
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: types of girlies go nuts.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: That's one that doesn't work for me because... No. Have
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: you not caught and served the Death Eater thirst content? No,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: not the Nazi.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: I actually.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: They're the Nazi wizards.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: It's just.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Because it is adjacent to this. It's adjacent to scare actors. It's, like,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: men in masks with, like, flowing black cloaks.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: Like, I actually think Universal had to hire.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Like, security for, like, the Death Eaters because women were
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: getting too thirsty for them. You could draw a direct thread,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: to me, between the rise in popularity of dark romance
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: on social media, specifically, and then Fry Boy, I feel like,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: started popping up, like.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: I think maybe two years ago, but I could be wrong.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: For me, anyway.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: He started popping up two Halloweens ago. I need to
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: meet the girly pop at SeaWorld who saw Fry Boy
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and said, we could do this.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: SeaWorld! At SeaWorld.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be thirsty at SeaWorld. I don't
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: want to be at SeaWorld, period. I don't know how
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: that business model is still going, to be honest. Love
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: and light to the fine folks at SeaWorld who will
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: never sponsor this podcast now. But, like, listen, I don't
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: need to go to SeaWorld to be thirsty.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Horror night is one thing or Halloween night is one thing. But, like,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: SeaWorld is like a family establishment.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: So I'm about to say a series of crazy things.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: I did a student film.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: On this show? Never.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: On this show.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I did a student film last year. And my co-star
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: in the student film was an older gentleman who spent
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: like a month every year in Florida working at a
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: haunted house. Because he's a scare actor. He's not a
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: scare actor in this way. Like not a thirst scare actor.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Just like the normal kind that like wear like Jason
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: masks and whatever.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: But, like, I do think this is a huge industry
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: for actors this time of year. So I should also
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: just say, like, much love and respect to actors getting
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: paid to do acting work. I love that for you guys. Also,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: I've been reading some really great scare actor romances.
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: Really?
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I try to keep up with, like, Halloween romances. Weirdly,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: my appetite for them is mostly in the spring. But I...
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: That is really funny. I really... I think Chelsea Curdo
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: had a, like, dark scare actor romance. That I was
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: totally tickled by.
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: Oh, Holly June Smith has one, too.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I think I've read that one as well. Really hot.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: They're fun. The, like, fry boy economy of romance is real, right? Unironically,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: it is real. Vanessa Allen's Lights Out, that came from
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Masked Men on BookTok. There's a lot of awareness of
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Masked Men on BookTok. there are a lot of dark
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: romances that are like doing a sort of reciprocal thing
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: with this economy of like erotic horror content in real
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: life and vice versa. You know, they are like reciprocal
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: systems of wish fulfillment, which I mean, I find the
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: book stuff more successful than the in-person performances, but that's
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: just because I'm just Gen Z enough to experience profound cringe.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Like I'm just Gen
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Z enough to be like, I, I'm experiencing immediate ick.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: For me, it's more like I totally respect that this
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: is a thing for women, but I want to usher
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: them out of that space and be like, no, no,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: you deserve better than this. this we can do better
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: than this like we can we can find better like
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: do you know what I mean it's more that it's
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: more like.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: And these videos kind of worked for you Tyler.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah I could it was more it was let me
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: let me be clear it was more than I could
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: see how it would work for me Do you know
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: what I mean?
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: It was not an immediate, like, this works for me.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: It was more of like there were moments. It was
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: like concepts of a plan. Concepts of a plan.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Also, if you guys have ever been having thoughts about
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: scare actors, about Halloween romance, we'd love to hear them.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: And you can send them to us at 833-831-LOVE. We
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: do listen to those voicemails and we love to hear them.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I think that's the show. That's the show.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: I don't think we can top any of what I
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: just said. That's the show.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Call us and leave us a voicemail with your thoughts
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: at 833-831-LOVE.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: That's 833-831-5683. If you fell hard for what you heard here,
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: get episode notes delivered.
• 30:41
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• 30:46
  Speaker 2: share your recommendations and topic ideas in the post comments.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Head to 831stories. com to keep up with 831's monthly read-in-one-sitting
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: romance novellas and sign up for a membership to The
• 30:58
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• 31:01
  Speaker 2: The Ones also get a 20% discount on everything on
• 31:03
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• 31:08
  Speaker 1: The Radio 831 Podcast is a production of iHeart Podcasts,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: hosted by Sanjana Bhaskar and Tyler McCall. The show is
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: produced by Liz Smith. And for iHeart, our supervising producer
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: is Emily Marinoff. Special thanks to the whole iHeart team
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: and especially Allie Perry and Allison Cantor Graber. Our executive
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: producers are Claire Mazur and Erica Cerullo. Our music is
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Domino by James Ryan Carr and Love Is What You
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Do by Alibi.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: We'll be sharing the love here again next week.