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Ky Dickens on Autism, Non-Speakers, and Assuming Competence — Creator of The Telepathy Tapes · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to arguably the most exciting episode that we are recording here on the Inch Zones podcast. I have Kai Dickens here, the creator and producer of the Telepathy tapes. And I know that everyone here in this audience of mine who shares the role of profound autism mother and caregiver knows and is privy to the work of Kai and her team. They have illuminated and what I shared with her before we press record. They have illuminated not only the lives of non speakers and children like ours, but they continue to shatter all assumptions about what meaning and what our shared consciousness is and the reality that which we live in. And from the moment a mother or caregiver parent becomes or has handed the label of a profound autism mother, people start handing you these narratives and you realize that we're not here to accept all of those. We're here to challenge all those assumptions, presumptions, and statements about the children that we do have. And Kai, thank you so much for being here on Inchtones today.
• 1:02
  Speaker B: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here, especially on this podcast. Yeah, wow.
• 1:06
  Speaker A: Thank you so much. You know, I said before, we're so appreciative of your work. The work that so many of us continue to try to do every day is to sit in the role of being an unconditional love leader of our family and specifically to the mothers leading with that deep maternal instinct. You know, I know that that probably shines through the families that you record and illuminate. Your body just knows something's different around these kids. Could you share with me about your experience, like, of how that became illuminated and you feel that within your body and the connectivity of them?
• 1:43
  Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think that just, you know, kind of going back, you know, I really had not been in the world of non speakers with autism before this project. My brother is on the spectrum, my older brother, and there's plenty of on the spectrum in my family, as often as the case, I think for many years now, and, and. And non speakers of the apraxia, it's a much different thing. I don't even think it can be in the same category as other different, you know, variants on the spectrum or Asperger's. Like, it's completely different. I mean, the first time I think anyone on my crew or me, you know, was with a non speaker. I was with Mia from Mexico, which was the first episode. And there was just this like, fluency and love in the room. There was just this, just such a purity of. Of being. And I think, you know, again, I. I I don't know. I don't know what it is about working with non speaking individuals or. And if it's just everyone is putting their best foot forward to make sure that someone feels really safe and comfortable, especially if they can't, you know, command their body the way they sometimes wish they could or that type of thing. Or if it's truly just like a non speaker, maybe being able to help impact the, just the mood and energy in the room. But I will say that every non speaker I've ever been around, it's like some of the warmest, most loving rooms I've ever in. I think I've never met a non speaker who's, who's brought down the mood. I mean, it's always a beautiful experience.
• 3:16
  Speaker A: There always seems to be this fluidity when you come in so deeply, like vulnerable to a world of non speakers. You know, one of the things that as a mother you're always told from the beginning is, you know, assume competence. Right. Is that that's like a blanket thing across the whole spectrum and disability. And I've all, I think early on in, in the journey for all of us that nestles close to the hope of, okay, if I assume competence, then competence on every angle is going to like rise and it sort of gets intertangled with what I believe is false hope per se, of the typical trajectory. But when you presume competence, but that also means the shattering of the assumptions of what you believe competence is.
• 4:01
  Speaker B: Right?
• 4:02
  Speaker A: Right. I mean, I have been, I've sat in communicate sessions with my children at their school and both of my children, after answering a question about say, monarch butterflies or something like that, after learning about them with their teacher, they look right at me like the confidence and the direction and the boldness of, mom, do you see me? Mom, do you see me? Answer this so confidently with such conviction that how can you not take in that energy and that shared energy of assuming their competence? And I remember thinking that has to be baked into this equation of what assuming competence really means because it's, it's actually shattering some of your own or our own typical assumptions about reality.
• 4:52
  Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, and I think for, I mean, maybe thousands of years, people have assumed that behavior was a reflection of intelligence. Right. Like, and we know that's not true, especially with people who have apraxia and cannot control their body. Your body's constantly kind of betraying you in a way. You might want to do this, but it does this instead and that it doesn't mean that you're not in there and that you don't understand it just means your body's not agreeing. And I think that is like, one of the biggest assumptions that needs to be shattered.
• 5:18
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 5:18
  Speaker B: And I think people still respond that way in schools. You know, I mean, I get letters from parents who will say, well, the teacher said, it doesn't matter that I'm doing this to him, or it doesn't matter that I'm sitting him in the closet when the rest of the class is doing this, because he doesn't know anyway. And it's like, that is terrible.
• 5:32
  Speaker A: Right.
• 5:33
  Speaker B: And so I. I do think that a lot of people still make horrific assumptions based on behavior.
• 5:38
  Speaker A: They do. And I believe all behavior is communication on some level. And I also think we need to accept that in a way that then creates more concrete rules within the classrooms of children like this. I feel so lucky that my children in a learning environment that accepts these practices on how they communicate and seeking to grow and removing blanket statements about who these children are.
• 6:03
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 6:04
  Speaker A: You know, how. How do you think we utilize your work from. I always think about us like we're like your little guerrilla warfare pods all across the country. Right. Like, we get to hear your work as the mothers of the non speakers and then take that in and go, okay, how do we incorporate this into their classrooms of maybe people that don't have access to implementing this on the ground level?
• 6:25
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think spelling, I mean, I. I do think there's going to be a huge transformation around spelling soon, you know, and I think Asha is still, you know, digging their heels in around their statements, but just talking to a lot of people that are working on the ground, like there is an army of people. And. And what's wonderful is it's a lot of mainstream, like, listeners who just have become allies, I think, to Nazi speakers and their parents. I don't know if you felt that of shift and without a doubt.
• 6:50
  Speaker A: I mean, it was interesting to me. Again, I've always been very open to this idea of shared consciousness. I'm the father of a physicist, or I'm sorry, I'm the daughter of a. Not the father. I'm a dog. My father's a physicist. And it's something that Dr. Mossbridge and I share as well and said, you know, we've been around the science community and I've been sort of understanding the role of the metaphysical and entire life. And when people started reaching out after listening to your first season's episodes, it was the people that reached out who. I've always felt I had this Innate connectivity to whether I met them once at a conference or once in a, you know, my own podcast journey or something that said, hey, have you gotten a listen to this yet? And they become these deep, deep allies for my own mission. But also, you know, on the yours, on the largest of scales. It's really neat.
• 7:43
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And some of those allies I know are working really hard to try to get spelling covered by Medicaid or to try to get the occupational therapist group to validate spelling and forget the speech pathologists find digging their hills in. And so I do think there's gonna be a wide change because it's just too many people are catching on that I think this is a human rights violation to not to take a communication form away from a huge group of people and a growing population of people.
• 8:12
  Speaker A: I had this conversation, you know, I feel ethically bound to show the full humanity of my children. Not from a sense of showing them, but revealing it to those who have a similar experience. And I think that that's where this shared consciousness, the revelations around it, the people that are growing this from all different aspects are coming together and realizing none of us are looking to be the stars of the show. We're looking to just illuminate what this can mean for all these caregivers in similar situations. I'm sure that you've seen this through your work. There's a lot of pain right now aligned with the community, because I think if you have full plates, as all of us do as mothers, what it takes to expand what I like to call your orientation around this for your children, because it does take a lot of energy, as a typical mortal here.
• 9:07
  Speaker B: Yeah, it takes a lot. It takes a lot of energy. And like, that's one of the things, you know, because people are reaching out, saying, like, what can we do? And there's a few people who said, I want to put money toward, like, centers or something. And I think, like, respite care is really important. Like, try to create camps or places for, you know, in, like, families where they can go and enjoy, but also have, like, care for non speakers or even like a university setting where maybe it's like, there is a chance for higher education where it could be accommodated with a lot of supports or even like an entire family could go live at this beautiful university for four years with a non speaker. So, you know, I think there's so much that's going to be happening in the next decade. I'm. I'm just praying it all comes together, I think.
• 9:45
  Speaker A: Yes. And I think it will because I think again it's like the network effect. It's like there, there's a reason why we are turning what is seen as a weakness in individuality and it now becoming this shared reality of expansive togetherness. I never in a. I say in a lot of my keynote talks, you know, having two children with non speaking autism was not my bingo card. Right. When I was living in the Upper west side in New York, white picket fence light ahead of me.
• 10:12
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 10:13
  Speaker A: You know, I was just planning the next trip. We were to Disney World.
• 10:16
  Speaker B: Right.
• 10:16
  Speaker A: And, and the expansion of it because I believe I was always open to this has never in any capacity been the wrong choice for the growth of life outside of me and my children and family. And I can only imagine what you feel in producing and filming and like you said, hoping and praying that in the next 10 years this just.
• 10:39
  Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think right now too, I mean it is so hard, I mean for, for just parents in general, it's hard. But then you bring on someone who, who the family who needs often 247 care and just a different level of care. Like it can be absolutely exhausting and difficult to figure out how to get time to learn to spell or, or have like, you know, what we were filming for the film was someone who was getting an intensive spelling lesson at home two times a week. And it was monumentally fast how quickly that got open. And for us it was like, okay, this needs to be a thing. So any additional money that we have coming in right now we're putting into a nonprofit called TTT Education and Impact. And like starting next year, we're, we're just going to try to give away spelling grants and allow people to have private coaches come into their homes or maybe do an app that can help people like get connected with a spelling coach. But my goal is to make spelling free and accessible to as many families as can because like families need support, they don't need more costs and they don't need more exhaustion. Right.
• 11:36
  Speaker A: I always say that the loopholes to get through are one thing, but it does take a lot for those.
• 11:43
  Speaker B: People.
• 11:44
  Speaker A: That, I don't want to say skeptics, but there's so there's a lot of fear in like the unknown about is this going to be worth the energy to put into it? And I think that the more in which we talk about it through again, my children's, you know, they're on the, on the, on the earlier side of spell to communicate, but also that we are all receiving energy in different ways. And back to what we said a few moments ago, it actually is going to give back to, to the mothers and caregivers energy to continue on to learn and to challenge those, those narratives because that's. That respite is one thing but, but the facilitated communication and the energy exchange within those. You wanna talk about fueling me? I remember that fr. First Friday I saw my two in an earlier session and I was on fire, man. I mean there is no doubt that they, I don't care how many few hours I slept the night before, that was fueling.
• 12:37
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 12:38
  Speaker A: And I think that parents, parents will need to know that they will be fueled from this just as much as their children are going to be fueled by their success in spells to communicate.
• 12:48
  Speaker B: And it might take a different coach. I mean that is the thing, like you have to have a coach who is patient and believes in you. And I think there's so many good coaches out there. There's also not great coaches out there are not as experienced. So it's like finding the right coach. But if you follow the recipe, it will work, will work. It's just remarkable. And, and I think another part of that, like to your point is that I understand, I think anyone who loves and knows non speakers and their families understands how many things parents have tried that didn't work or didn't pan out, how they thought. And, and I know that spelling could be like another thing, another try, but it, it, I've never seen it not work if you stick with it. And sometimes it takes like years of going back and forth and trying. But the other thing that I think is essential to that is just belief, like truly believing you're in there, you can do this, you're in there, you can do this is so huge. And like we actually watched that unfold a few times when we were filming the Telepath Apes film which will be coming out next year. And there'd be times where we were like, okay, we have to try to fly everyone to our, you know, quote unquote hill set like in the middle of nowhere in North Carolina. And a lot of families were like, I don't think my, you know, my non speaker can fly or I don't think they'll be able to sit in the car that long or I don't think it will work. And like I was just like, just believe in them. Believe, believe, believe they will to the occasion. And it was interesting because every non speaker did. They sat on a plane for three hours. If normally they've ever been able to do that. They were able to like make it in the car and then off into a plane and if they haven't been able to do that and I think it's just so beautiful. And the same thing happened when we were filming in England. There was a non speaker there that picked up a pen and started writing with a pen on paper. And his mom was like he's obviously knows that this is important to represent and he's like rising to the occasion in a way that I've rarely seen it just, you know, obviously there's cop intense so there's that too. But also just like we all have that drive to succeed and meet the expectation for ourselves and it can be hard to believe that sometimes I know during this daily struggles but like believing in someone is so important.
• 14:46
  Speaker A: It is and I, and I think that the more in which we change the conditioning of this, of society's narrative to what a they are capable of. And as I shared, I love to serve the mothers and caregivers to believe what you are capable of too. You know, I think that like you're saying the fear or the worry of even getting to the set that you were you recording creates a lot of just energy use in the parents and caregivers when we can remember that no one else is going to be able to do this but you. And if that belief in your child that does have the germination roots within you and you are of your child and your child is of you and that you're doing this together and that just keeps growing. I'm a big proponent of interacting with the world versus isolating. As hard as it can be, it never is the wrong choice. And I love to hear that you say that. It does begin and end with that belief and the unconditional love that the wheels once they're in motion, it's almost like you can't stop that belief system. And I think that that what your work and I hope that mine sits next to it is reminding that Kai can't tell you what to do. The spell to communicate founder cannot tell you exactly what to do. I wish I could tell every single mother that comes to me. Sarah, what's the next right thing? I have no idea. I know I could probably do better than like a typical mom but you know, like I really. But it's, it's in you, it's already there and you know it so deeply and it's going to let your child thrive and flourish.
• 16:21
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And even just setting up that intention is so like, you know, and I have a six year old who's neurotypical but you know, he's has a lot of sensitivity and some behavior stuff and he was really interacting, like just kind of being bonkers and almost like borderline mean the past like two weeks. And I was like, what do I. How do. And I was like, okay, what would be the advice I give to someone? You know? So I ended up like being like, I'm going to go get like a project and train and just give him a lot of attention and love. Like just go out the other way. And like it was transformational for him just to be like, okay, we're going to sit down on the ground and focus and focus and I'm going to wrap you in love, you know, and it's just like, I just think those basic things sometimes, even though it can be so hard, it's just like just try to meet someone exactly where they're at and cover them in love, you know? And like one of the non speakers too, that was so interesting. Like, who was really dysregulated when we were filming once in Connecticut, her sister was like, she needs to come into the forest and that will really help her. Like, we were like, should we leave? Like, it was like, you know, a level of dysregulation where I felt like it's not gonna be easy for the family or the sound speaker that day. And like we went to the forest and she just completely like melted into like this calm and almost like powerful calm, you know, and it was beautiful. And so I just think like every single one of us has something, right, that's gonna help us regulate, that's gonna help us calm down. Like, I know Susie Miller has done a lot with like, you know, the tuning forks or different fabrics or whether it's music or whether it's stones or crystals, like I know those kind of deeply impact various non speakers. So it's like what is the thing? And, and don't, don't toss out anything. Cause it might feel too woo woo. Or you don't.
• 18:03
  Speaker A: But not what you don't know what you don't know. And it's, it's always. Again, I think that I'm a child of the early 80s, right? And I grew up in the 90s where like everything was great. Like we're, you know, I think I always laugh. I'm like us exennials, like, I mean we can laugh about being in the like growing up in the analog time and then being able to go so digital but man, we, we are sitting as the parents of this next generation of non speakers and having more autistic children in our children's communities. And I think that the more in which we say yes to any opportunity, anything that could help with regulation, anything that could help with just an expansion of your norm, is never wrong. And I don't know how to ever say that without just living it and just being that with Millie and Mac and pivoting where necessary and not making or staking anything to be so solid. I know that the next topic I was just thinking of the scientific community, even with all the data that you guys have, is just constantly pushing back on it for validation. And I think that the, that the strides that are being made are just going to continue to validate that data and have it not be unable to not be seen over and over and over again.
• 19:30
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, I mean, that's what's been so cool is like, you know, it was really vulnerable at first because to put any of this out there. Cause I felt like it was just me traveling around with often Michael, my, my camera person and then the family. So it was like almost like our word against the, you know. And then what was so beautiful though is like there's been quite a number of scientists and if they're doing it the right way, they do what Dr. Mossridge actually did, which was form relationships with families, with students, with teachers. Make sure that. And understand like, you can trust me. I will meet you where you at. I love you. I accept you. And I mean, Julia's been like a shining example of a researcher who's like, I'm not just gonna go, go do an experiment, like with this population, you, you have to earn the trust. You have to learn how to like move within the space that fits them, you know. And in doing so, the team of researchers that she started doing not just telepathy tests with, but mind discovery to make sure you're authoring your own words, you're spelling your own thoughts. All of those tests were extraordinarily validating. You know, other researchers who've gone and looked at this too are like, okay, there's a there, there. We might not be able to explain it yet, but this isn't, this isn't not real. And I think that's been awesome because the more and more people that are exciting to experience it, I think hopefully because of the telepathy tapes and so many brave families like yours who are out there like willing to talk about it and also showcase this type of Thing. All those people are having a ripple effect. Right. They're all having a ripple effect. And then it's going to just become common knowledge, you know?
• 21:00
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you know, I know Dr. Mossbridge and I sit similar with, like, unconditional love being so baked into our. Our number one reason and mission. And I really do believe that, that if you have an opposite to that, it's not. It's not hate, It's. It's fear. It's not unconditional love is the opposite of that is fear. And I think when talking and expressing and sharing these experiences through your work, and then the one off of the mothers and caregivers that I bring on to talk about their own journeys and stories, it is so apparent that the ones that are most powerful in how they share are the ones that don't lead or have learned to harness their fear and transform it into unconditional love.
• 21:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:46
  Speaker A: Because I think an agree, you know, that acceptance of all that, of the life that we do have as parents with these children then transforms because it just. Yeah, I'm sorry.
• 22:00
  Speaker B: And being able to surrender all your preconceived ideas and beliefs and thoughts. I mean, truly. Because all of this requires a major paradigm shift. All of it does. You know, I mean, it is truly, in a way, looking at people who've been treated like the least among us and being like, no, you have a lot to teach. You could teach us too, you know, And. And I mean, that's one of the things that, like, I've been like, hoping and, you know, almost begging people to see is like, regardless of your worldview, walking into this, regardless of your culture, your religion, whatever it is, like, if we're going to have a paradigm shift, we all have to sit back and be willing to ask some really hard questions, evaluate things. And if you do that, you're going to end up probably more equipped on the other side with a stronger belief, because it will be based in things that have been tested and questioned and opened up and renewed, you know?
• 22:52
  Speaker A: Right. I mean, the work that I. How I met Dr. Mosser is through the work of two gentlemen, Punch Brian Rivera and Mark McGrath, who really are the scholars on John Boyd and the OODA Loop sketch, which is not sure if you're familiar with it, but it's centered on. Our orientation is like the engine of our. Of our souls and humanity. And our orientation is based on our genetic heritage, our life experiences, our. Our culture, you know, our age, all these things, our genetics and how we have to constantly shatter that to grow our orientation in order to become individuals who make. Whose perspective and perception is enlarged. And that is difficult. That is not comfortable to do. And I think that one of the things I think in cultural today is that we've. I haven't. You haven't. But I think there's a majority don't want to feel any discomfort. I don't want to be uncomfortable.
• 23:52
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 23:52
  Speaker A: I will do anything to not feel uncomfortable. And that includes actually, I think, not telling the truth. And that's also something that is deep within. When I see my children just truly telling the truth or living in reality, it does shake you awake because you realize, is it comfortable? No. But what does it reveal?
• 24:16
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right. Like, in that discomfort can you only find the truth? Right. I mean, every great quest takes a lot of bravery. And I always think about it as, like, I remember being at like at a museum when I was a kid and they were talking about how like, an armor that's been tested is like, better than like shiny new armor. And it's just like, it's so true. Right. If you have, like, gone through the battles and like, you've earned all the stuff, like, you know, you can trust the skin you're in. You know, you can trust the heart you have or the beliefs you have, but like, I don't think you can trust them if you don't open them up to like, vast exploration, vast questioning, vast.
• 24:50
  Speaker A: You know, listen, the Socratic method is. There's a reason why it stayed so tri. Like, so truthful throughout time. I mean, asking questions is never the wrong choice. Even ones that make us think differently or make us feel something. I, I'm sure through my 42 years, when you're asked a question that, that seeks to understand me or my, my partner or my sister, it never, Even if it makes you feel tingly or, ooh, this is, this is a little uncomfortable. Gosh. When you can speak that and speak your answer to that and have what it reveals to you. I think then when I think about my non speakers, what they're just wanting to reveal, those children just, they are craving, they are so deserving of being able to reveal just like we are. And we find discomfort in revealing. Yet when they're given the opportunity, it's only unconditional love that they share.
• 25:48
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:50
  Speaker A: Start to finish.
• 25:50
  Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, I mean, that is like, when I look at like our greatest. I mean, I think it's the thing that every non speaker that I've ever Met has put forth is just this necessary need to love each other and to get out of the camps we're in, to stop dividing and dividing about whether it's politics or religion or gender or whatever it is. It's just love, love, love. We're all. Were all one.
• 26:15
  Speaker A: I wanted to go back to what you were saying. We kind of strayed off from the ethical part of it real and how the energy it takes to meet the non speaker. And I was laughing with someone at an event recently. I said, you know, we have to, we need to, we need to give more energy to them because they are using so much energy to I think share. As you know, we're just at the tip of the iceberg of what they're able to tell us and what we can learn from them. But we need to ethically do our part. This is not just all on them. We have to continue to build that bridge and expend our energy for them to be able to share.
• 26:50
  Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
• 26:52
  Speaker A: Like I think, I think that's ethically, I think as a human we are, we are bound. We have to do that.
• 26:57
  Speaker B: Right? Yeah. We have to become a safe place to land. And I think that's been true throughout history. Right. Like there could be great messages but unless people are ready to hear it, like it's going to fall in deaf ears. And so like you look back at what people might have been saying 200 years ago and it would have sound awful, like heresy, right, that like women should be allowed to vote. You have to have a society who's ready to hear it, which means society has to do their work and meet people and like and, and break apart their own assumptions in order to hear certain messages. And I think that again, like the non speakers that I've met, it's always a message of love, love and unity, about wanting to protect the environment, deeply concerned with matters of the spirit. You know, I mean truly, it's like all the things that we've ever heard like that money doesn't matter, this doesn't matter. Love them, don't. And people seem like, oh yeah, you know, they love the telepathy, they love this. It's like, okay, but you have to do that work. You have to like, you have to prime your.
• 27:53
  Speaker A: Yeah, you have to prime, you know yourself. And there's a lot of unbecoming that the typical ones like us have to owe it to the non speakers to do. I think about, you know, how hard it must be to live in a world where you're unable to Communicate. And you have to take in all these things and you can't even tell anyone what is comfortable, what is not. We just, we owe it to them. And I, I, I can only. I know it's fuel for my work. But I think about, like you said, these, the camps, maybe those camps just become us all. Priming the ones around us in our communities to be open to this, because I'm not saying anything new. You, you have started a deep, beautiful, unconditional love movement. This is so beyond speakers and non speakers and autism and apraxia. This is a movement of unconditional love and deep inner knowing that is undeniable and it is having a fractal effect in families, in communities, online. I mean, I know that you guys just won the award for, what was it? The most shared podcast.
• 29:01
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 29:01
  Speaker A: What does that say? What does that say about us? We are craving to find community. And then this work that you're doing.
• 29:09
  Speaker B: Yeah, that was cool because, you know, we didn't spend any advertising. I mean, we've never spent money on advertising. And especially that first season, like, we didn't have a social media presence or pr, any of that. The first season, which was the one that really kind of took off. And, and that is really cool that people are like, mom, you have to listen to this, or brother or friend or partner.
• 29:28
  Speaker A: I mean, that's like the greatest thing ever. I mean, I, I think what is the best way to feel pride about work is knowing that someone took time out of their crazy day to share it.
• 29:39
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 29:40
  Speaker A: So I want to thank you so much for knowing that this had to be done. This is the work that had to be done. And in doing so, I hope that you're feeling the love in spades from everyone that is touched by your work and the presence of your work and that you're asked to be, to join into. So I know that you've changed the world in which I can share about my children. And I know I'm just, I'm not unique in that aspect. So thank you so much, Kai, for all that you've done for the non speakers in this world. All right, well, until next time on the Inchtons podcast, thank you again.
• 30:13
  Speaker B: Absolutely.
• 30:14
  Speaker A: All right, awesome.
• 30:14
  Speaker B: Well.