Latest / Be A Global Citizen! / 191. HGSE Global Citizen: Generosa Sangco-Jackson: Examining Ancient Languages to Reaffirm our Common Humanity

Transcript

191. HGSE Global Citizen: Generosa Sangco-Jackson: Examining Ancient Languages to Reaffirm our Common Humanity · Be A Global Citizen!

• 0:04
  Hi there, and welcome to Be a Global Citizen, the podcast that
• 0:08
  explores the concept of global citizenship through the lens of
• 0:11
  value creating education. My name is Scott Bauer and I'm a
• 0:15
  SOCO researcher and educator. I hope you find the discussions,
• 0:18
  stories, and insights on this podcast to being valuable and
• 0:22
  inspiring as we strive to become global citizens who are
• 0:25
  committed to living a contributive life.
• 0:27
  Enjoy the conversation. Hi, my name is Generous Asenko
• 0:37
  Jackson. I am a recent transplant here to
• 0:41
  sunny LA by way of Indiana and originally sort of Florida.
• 0:46
  I'm a military kid, so I grew up basically on the East Coast and
• 0:51
  I'm really excited to see what's going to happen now that I am
• 0:54
  completely on the West Coast. Wonderful to have you here in
• 0:58
  sunny California Generosa and thank you so much for taking
• 1:02
  this time to be on my podcast. Very excited to learn more about
• 1:05
  your background. I, I didn't really know about
• 1:09
  the military kid background. I, I've, I've always associated
• 1:14
  you more with like Latin language, which I'm also hoping
• 1:18
  that you, you get into and, and speak more about.
• 1:20
  But you know, we, we had a incredible 2 year experience in
• 1:25
  masters program through Harvard and that's how we got to know
• 1:28
  each other. And yeah, it's just been so
• 1:32
  wonderful to to connect with amazing educators and
• 1:35
  individuals who who make impact and also just travel across the
• 1:39
  country like in your case or also around the world.
• 1:43
  So yeah, definitely looking forward to this conversation.
• 1:48
  So to kind of kick things off, wanted to pass it over to you
• 1:52
  and ask you a little bit more about your background as an
• 1:56
  educator. You know, also that military
• 1:59
  background sounds fascinating that kind of, you know, like
• 2:02
  relocating and moving around probably.
• 2:05
  Yeah. How how is that like?
• 2:07
  And any anything else you'd like to share is really this is just
• 2:10
  a space for you to to reflect. Thanks.
• 2:14
  Let me start with the military stuff because that is
• 2:17
  chronological. My mom served in the US Navy and
• 2:22
  there would be times when she being on a ship, would have to
• 2:26
  sail out. And so year after year, I might
• 2:31
  be living with her or I might be living with grandparents or
• 2:35
  guardians. You know, it's, it was a pretty
• 2:39
  transient kind of life. One of the skills I've gained
• 2:43
  from it is that I can really Jenga pack a car trunk like you
• 2:48
  would not believe. And so, you know, this is a
• 2:54
  people may have heard the term military brat.
• 2:57
  And there's a sort of like lived experience and kind of psyche
• 3:03
  that goes along with that. We tend to be pretty
• 3:05
  self-sufficient. We tend to take well to change,
• 3:10
  but I would say it made it made for kind of a disrupted
• 3:17
  educational experience. You know, I went to like 5
• 3:22
  different elementary schools the first time I really had an
• 3:25
  extended experience of being at the same school year after year
• 3:29
  where I didn't have to make friends.
• 3:32
  And it I found it actually kind of strange that I knew everybody
• 3:35
  matriculating with me was not until middle school.
• 3:43
  That's yeah, that that sounds very significant.
• 3:45
  And especially in the sense of like, you know, early
• 3:48
  development and like, you know, going through elementary school
• 3:52
  to middle school, you're kind of looking to your peer groups just
• 3:55
  kind of make sense of where you're at.
• 3:58
  You're, you're learning a lot from them, also from the the
• 4:01
  environment itself. So, you know, it sounds like
• 4:05
  while there was some positives like the self-sufficiency and
• 4:08
  like adaptability, the negatives I guess would be maybe more
• 4:12
  geared towards like the, the, the friendship circles that you
• 4:15
  had. Could you speak a little bit
• 4:18
  more about what that sense of like was?
• 4:21
  Was it a pervading sense of, of loneliness or was there other
• 4:25
  emotions of like excitement, the novelty of it that kind of
• 4:28
  helped balance you And, and also, did you have any siblings?
• 4:33
  Oh, I'm not only an only child, I'm an only grandchild.
• 4:38
  So yeah. So that probably makes me pretty
• 4:41
  spoiled, but it made my family very, you know, the the family
• 4:47
  was a little bit more extended, but still kind of nuclear with
• 4:51
  myself, my mom, you know, my grandparents.
• 4:54
  So I grew up in a multi generational household,
• 4:57
  especially when I got to live with my grandparents.
• 5:00
  And I would say you hit kind of the nail on the head that in
• 5:04
  terms of friendships, it was pretty difficult.
• 5:08
  Like my best friends growing up were my cousins because I would
• 5:11
  see them fairly consistently. And now that I'm older and I've
• 5:16
  moved a little bit more, I had definitely have noticed that I
• 5:23
  have some difficulty sustaining long friendships.
• 5:26
  You know, I'm, I'm, I'm not great at the picking up the
• 5:30
  phone and writing the letters. So it's something I actively
• 5:35
  work on and I hope I'm getting better at it.
• 5:39
  We'll see. I think so.
• 5:41
  I mean, we're we're connected and now we're kind of like
• 5:45
  neighbors like in neighboring cities, which is, which is
• 5:49
  amazing considering how, you know, extensive and global like
• 5:52
  the Harvard network is. And then we just kind of flopped
• 5:55
  down into a Los Angeles area, which is always great.
• 5:59
  But it but maybe in terms of like the family connections
• 6:02
  though that sounds like it was quite robust and and very much
• 6:06
  needed and the intergenerationality of it also
• 6:10
  strikes me as quite unique. Maybe could you speak a little
• 6:14
  bit about some of the like influential figures within your
• 6:18
  family, whether that be, you know, going back to your mom or
• 6:22
  anyone else that really was instrumental in helping you lay
• 6:26
  your own foundation, maybe not just in the educational sense,
• 6:31
  but also just in terms of like what you aspired towards?
• 6:35
  Well, that's also an interesting question because I'm a first
• 6:38
  generation college student. And so it was really tough to
• 6:45
  kind of explain to my family what I was doing.
• 6:49
  I was pursuing basically a Latin degree.
• 6:53
  We call it classical studies, classical philology.
• 6:57
  There are lots of names for it, but it's the study of ancient
• 6:59
  languages, particularly Latin and Greek.
• 7:02
  And my blue collar grandparents really could not wrap their
• 7:09
  heads around it. My grandfather worked for GE, My
• 7:11
  grandmother was a bank teller. And they're just, they're like,
• 7:16
  what, what are you going to do with that kind of thing?
• 7:21
  You know, my mom was really supportive.
• 7:23
  She's like, look, you're going to figure out what you'll do
• 7:26
  with it down the line. And so they were always
• 7:31
  supportive of me pursuing more advanced education.
• 7:35
  They just, it was not their experience.
• 7:38
  So they didn't understand what I told them.
• 7:42
  I was getting a PhD. And that's also called a doctor.
• 7:45
  If they're like, wait, you're going to be a doctor, That's
• 7:48
  great. And I'm, I, I would have to
• 7:50
  explain to them not, not that kind of doctor.
• 7:52
  I won't be able to help you with, you know, your heart
• 7:55
  conditions or anything. And so that sort of became the
• 8:00
  family joke. You know, she became a doctor,
• 8:02
  but not a doctor. And it made so I, the
• 8:10
  grandparents I lived with were my mother's parents.
• 8:14
  And it made for kind of a like a tight matrilineal sort of line
• 8:20
  because I'm, again, I'm not just the only child, I'm the only
• 8:23
  grandchild. And it was pretty interesting in
• 8:29
  how that would work, how sort of tight the three of us became
• 8:33
  this sort of intergenerational group.
• 8:35
  And they just, you know, my grandmother and my mom, they
• 8:39
  were, they were just sort of the backbones.
• 8:42
  They were these women of quiet strength.
• 8:45
  And you know what it they were, they were able to show like a
• 8:52
  lot of perseverance and at the same time, you know, a lot of
• 8:57
  love. And so, you know, our parents
• 9:02
  care for us, right? They raise us.
• 9:05
  And same thing with grandparents in a lot of ways.
• 9:08
  And at some point in your life, it flits and you become the
• 9:13
  person who cares for them. And so as I got older, I, my mom
• 9:20
  ended up with cancer and she was 49.
• 9:26
  And so I ended up being her caretaker during that time,
• 9:33
  which was, I mean, nobody writes a book about how to do that kind
• 9:38
  of thing, right? And we rarely in society talk
• 9:42
  about it because we don't want to think of losing those
• 9:45
  bedrocks to our families and our hearts.
• 9:48
  But we are human machines. And we break down eventually for
• 9:53
  a variety of reasons. And hearing from my mom, there
• 9:57
  was a, you know, a really tough time when she was upset, she
• 10:04
  felt like a failure because, you know, children shouldn't have to
• 10:09
  care for their their parents was her, was her thought.
• 10:13
  And for me, it was paying back, you know, it was giving her the
• 10:18
  kind of care that that she gave me.
• 10:21
  And I as hard as it was, it was kind of an honor.
• 10:25
  And then a similar thing happened with my grandmother,
• 10:28
  although she made it into well into her 80s and had a whole lot
• 10:34
  of fun in her last couple of years.
• 10:37
  But I was there for her and you know, it.
• 10:43
  Just that perspective I think is 1.
• 10:46
  I wish we would talk more about like there are dozens of
• 10:51
  parenting books out there, right?
• 10:53
  You know, everybody's got the new fad for what to do with
• 10:57
  parenting. But what about when you're
• 10:59
  caring, you know, for these people who have been responsible
• 11:02
  for you their entire lives, so or your entire life?
• 11:06
  So yeah, that was that was a steep learning curve.
• 11:11
  And I was in Harvard while that was some of that was happening.
• 11:14
  So that's. Yeah, I felt for, you know, we
• 11:20
  had a lot of moms in our cohort and I was just like, man, if
• 11:24
  they, you know, they've got little ones running around.
• 11:28
  And if this is my experience with someone that I can actually
• 11:31
  communicate with, right, who understands what I'm saying to
• 11:34
  them, how hard is to be with the littles that, you know, are just
• 11:40
  crying and stuff. So, but yeah, it's, you know,
• 11:44
  it's a stage of life we all come to, you know, we all come to be
• 11:49
  a caregiver, caretaker in some way, shape or form within those
• 11:56
  family units. Yeah, this is, this is really
• 12:01
  important. And the the strong connections.
• 12:05
  I think you said like the matrilineal kind of like, you
• 12:08
  know, lineup. I don't know how you framed it
• 12:12
  phrased it, but it's, there's this unique bond, right, not
• 12:17
  only just within family, but also how like you, you, you said
• 12:21
  that it's, it's all on your mom's side.
• 12:24
  And, and I like the way that you described your, your mom and
• 12:27
  your, your grandmother as like women of, of quiet strength.
• 12:32
  And I, you know, because there's nothing, maybe it wasn't like
• 12:36
  their personality to kind of like be, you know, putting
• 12:39
  themselves out there or to like garner like attention or to be
• 12:44
  overly flashy about anything. But that there was probably some
• 12:48
  kind of like, you know, understanding of like kind of
• 12:52
  where their, what their role was, who the people in their
• 12:55
  lives were and why they were important and, and probably, you
• 12:59
  know, showing up for them. And now the fact that you were
• 13:02
  able to then, you know, pay that back, you know, in the form of
• 13:06
  like appreciation and like caring for them.
• 13:08
  I think you should use the word to honor them or you felt
• 13:11
  honored doing that. I think is is really amazing
• 13:15
  because it just speaks to how intimate, you know, human
• 13:18
  connections really are. And that while it, it can feel
• 13:23
  very daunting and scary and difficult, I could also be this,
• 13:27
  you know, really positive, loving, nurturing and cherished
• 13:31
  memory. And that these things are not,
• 13:34
  you know, they're not like mutually exclusive, but they
• 13:36
  can, they can come together and be, you know, 2 truths at the
• 13:40
  same time. And, and, and yeah.
• 13:43
  And so that's, that's, that's really powerful.
• 13:45
  I'm, I'm, I'm really happy that you had that experience and that
• 13:49
  your family was just very supportive of your overall
• 13:52
  academic journey from the, the beginnings of like, you know,
• 13:56
  you trying to explain to them what classic classical education
• 14:00
  is and, you know, Latin and then, you know, all the way
• 14:04
  through to a PhD and then also a Harvard graduate degree.
• 14:09
  So a lot of education and actually kind of want us to
• 14:13
  maybe, you know, look at that. What, what got you into the
• 14:16
  study of, of something like, you know, Latin to begin with?
• 14:20
  Because I surely did not have Latin at my school.
• 14:24
  And I think you're probably one of the first, I think you are
• 14:26
  the only person I know that speaks Latin and knows of Latin
• 14:31
  and, and, and so like, how do you fall into something like
• 14:35
  that? Because you said that your mom
• 14:36
  served in the US Navy. And so, yeah, I'm just, I'm, I'm
• 14:39
  a little bit, you know, you know, baffled, like, wow, how
• 14:42
  does, how someone do that? So, yeah.
• 14:44
  Could you share a little bit more about that?
• 14:47
  She, my mom actually did have a lot of influence on this because
• 14:50
  she would bring back stuff, you know, from her travels.
• 14:54
  And I was a kid who became pretty interested in mythology.
• 14:58
  And she happened to go to Greece and she brought back these, you
• 15:02
  know, tchotchkes of gods and goddesses, of books on the
• 15:05
  constellations. And so I thought mythology in
• 15:08
  all of its variations was pretty cool.
• 15:11
  I really enjoyed knowing that stuff.
• 15:14
  And as I got older, when it came time for high school, you know,
• 15:19
  I, I knew that that there was this idea of Greco Roman
• 15:22
  mythology, that there was a whole Roman world out there.
• 15:25
  My very large public high school in Jacksonville, FL offered
• 15:31
  Latin as an elective. And what really sealed the deal
• 15:36
  was in the guidance counselor's office as we were setting up my
• 15:38
  schedule, my grandfather being, you know, very blue collar and
• 15:43
  practical. He said, you live in Florida,
• 15:46
  why don't you take Spanish, Latin?
• 15:48
  What are you going to do with that?
• 15:50
  And so the rebellious teenager kicked in, right?
• 15:55
  And I was like, well, I'll, you know, go to Med school or law
• 15:58
  school and, you know, I'll be really great at, you know,
• 16:01
  knowing languages and it'll help on my SA TS and stuff.
• 16:05
  And he sort of threw his hands off.
• 16:07
  It's like, all right, whatever. But when I got there, I managed,
• 16:14
  I found my people, which is that they're students of Latin and
• 16:20
  you're going to hear that kind of again and again and again
• 16:22
  from them that you, they find their people.
• 16:29
  There are lots of different sort of ways to teach Latin.
• 16:32
  There are lots of schools of thought about that pedagogy, and
• 16:35
  it sort of has its own kind of set of niche pedagogies because
• 16:41
  it's not a spoken language. It's a lot of people are like,
• 16:44
  OK, I've heard of Latin. It's a dead language.
• 16:47
  I prefer to think of it as fossilized because then we, when
• 16:53
  we study it, become these cool paleontologists of language and
• 16:56
  culture as we dig into it. And while I was in the class, my
• 17:03
  teacher had a very, she the, the, the pedagogical term is
• 17:08
  grammar translation. So you learn sort of endings and
• 17:11
  charts and declensions, You know how to conjugate verbs.
• 17:15
  And then you, you go forward, you know, eventually to read
• 17:19
  literature. And that's another thing that
• 17:21
  distinguishes Latin is that in modern language courses, there
• 17:28
  are a lot of students who are there for what's considered
• 17:31
  survivalist language. Like you get to go to the
• 17:33
  country and you know how to get yourself around.
• 17:36
  There are people who study more deeply and that gives them more
• 17:40
  access. But what is generally considered
• 17:44
  one of the higher orders of ability is the ability to read
• 17:48
  literature. You know, great literature in
• 17:52
  the in the native language. And with Latin, you go straight
• 17:58
  to that literature. Like, there's not stuff kind of
• 18:01
  in between you don't get, you know, you, you don't get all
• 18:06
  right, technically Harry Potter and Latin exists and a couple
• 18:10
  other books. Winnie the Pooh is another one,
• 18:12
  but that's a modern rendition of these things.
• 18:16
  You don't get that. You go straight into epic poetry
• 18:21
  or the words of Julius Caesar as he campaigns, you know, and is
• 18:27
  conquering the world. So you, you go from, you know,
• 18:30
  declining to all the way up with that kind of literature.
• 18:37
  And so there's just something odd and differentiating about
• 18:43
  that piece so that the Latin students kind of band together.
• 18:49
  It's just different than learning the other languages, at
• 18:51
  least in certain methodologies. Well, in addition to that, there
• 18:57
  are organizations that really support the full learning of
• 19:03
  Latin because when you learn it, you're not just learning about
• 19:06
  the language itself. You're learning about the
• 19:08
  gladiators, right? The culture, the history, the
• 19:11
  mythology, which is what hooked me.
• 19:14
  You know, the, the customs of the era, like how did they do
• 19:17
  their marriage ceremonies? What were their, you know, what
• 19:22
  was their engineering like? And look at the amazing things
• 19:28
  like temples in the Roman Forum that we still have left.
• 19:31
  So how did those things come to be?
• 19:34
  So you're getting all of that. Well, a way to encapsulate that,
• 19:38
  and this is what my really phenomenal Latin teacher Nancy
• 19:42
  Allen did was she had us participate in something called
• 19:45
  the Junior Classical League. And a lot of people will call
• 19:48
  that Latin club, but it's like so much more than the Latin club
• 19:52
  because you, you get your club together and you've got your,
• 19:57
  you know, your elected offices and you do your events, right?
• 20:00
  You do your service project and you, you know, you do your
• 20:03
  homecoming freight stuff. But there were other forms of
• 20:08
  expression and competition within that framework of the
• 20:13
  junior classical league, the JCL that really hooked a lot of us.
• 20:19
  We would go like basically like once a month to different
• 20:22
  schools and. We would compete in an event
• 20:26
  called Kurtamen, which is like Team Jeopardy and you've got
• 20:30
  buzzers and you're it, it's sort of a, a trivia game.
• 20:37
  And so it's based on sort of various categories like I
• 20:41
  mentioned of the history, the mythology, grammar, translation,
• 20:45
  all that. And but it fired sort of the
• 20:49
  instincts of our group where we wanted to study more.
• 20:54
  We were consuming more on our own.
• 20:56
  We supported each other in this pursuit of extracurricular
• 21:00
  knowledge. And that was a culture that I,
• 21:06
  you know, I sort of fell into and never came out of.
• 21:11
  It's actually really cool. And it's something when I became
• 21:15
  a Latin teacher that I continued and I've done a lot of volunteer
• 21:20
  work for that organization. And I found that my students
• 21:25
  really loved it. And they all found something in
• 21:27
  there. They found artistic expression,
• 21:29
  like in the there are drawings and paintings they could do oral
• 21:35
  events for like impromptu speaking.
• 21:40
  And there were costume contests. I mean it athletic events.
• 21:46
  So at the different levels of these competitions, all the way
• 21:49
  up to the national level, there was sort of something for
• 21:53
  everyone to kind of find their niche for what they wanted to
• 21:57
  explore on their own, and they found sort of their tribe.
• 22:04
  Yeah, the like you said, right, finding your tribe, find they
• 22:07
  find, found their people. And it's just fascinating how
• 22:11
  you're able to shine this like spotlight on this particular
• 22:15
  community that, you know, let's say call it what it is.
• 22:19
  It's pretty niche, right? I'd say not not too many people
• 22:23
  are are able to have access to those specific studies maybe in
• 22:29
  their immediate hometown or to have that kind of club
• 22:32
  environment. I'm sure now though, like
• 22:33
  there's probably a lot of online forums and ways in which they're
• 22:37
  doing this. Curt Tommen, right, this team
• 22:39
  Jeopardy that you were talking about.
• 22:40
  That sounds great. But yeah, there's I, I, I, I
• 22:44
  really like the the origin story of, of your interest in in Latin
• 22:48
  because it is it ties back to your mom, right?
• 22:51
  Which, you know, of course, family super important.
• 22:54
  But the fact that she was able to kind of like, you know,
• 22:57
  travel the world and bring parts of that back to you.
• 23:01
  And that really stoked this, this curiosity right within you
• 23:05
  to like ask questions about like, what was it like, you
• 23:08
  know, in that time period? How did those kind of people,
• 23:12
  you know, go about their day and how did they imagine, you know,
• 23:16
  their yeah, their traditions and kind of the world building of
• 23:20
  like mythology part of it. And, and it seems that, you
• 23:24
  know, for Someone Like You, you must have had a very active
• 23:27
  imagination, right? To kind of like take from that
• 23:31
  and then just kind of like really engage with it.
• 23:34
  And, and then kind of, you know, demand more information, right?
• 23:38
  To kind of really like feed that desire of like kind of, yeah,
• 23:42
  putting yourself in their shoes probably also requires a lot of
• 23:46
  of of, of, of empathy too, to be like, what was it like to be a
• 23:49
  person back there? And I, and, and so another part
• 23:54
  that really struck me from what you shared about Latin, that
• 23:57
  like most people think of it as like the dead language.
• 24:00
  And that's how I thought of it as well.
• 24:03
  That's why I was like blown away at the Harvard commencement that
• 24:06
  there was some person tasked with reading a speech in Latin.
• 24:11
  And I was like. Well, that he wrote in Latin.
• 24:13
  Yeah, wrote it and then spoke it.
• 24:16
  And I was like, what? But, you know, so you know, it,
• 24:20
  you're kind of pushing back on this notion that it's not a dead
• 24:23
  language, but you could think of it like fossilized.
• 24:27
  That's really cool. And then you said like
• 24:29
  paleontologist. I was thinking of like Ross from
• 24:31
  Friends, like, Oh my gosh. So like maybe B Ross would have
• 24:35
  like liked to learn Latin. That that could have been that
• 24:37
  could have been an episode right there.
• 24:39
  Or maybe it was, I don't know. Was it, I don't know.
• 24:42
  There were so many. I don't think so.
• 24:43
  Yeah, OK. But but Ross would have been
• 24:46
  part of our tribe 100%. Right.
• 24:48
  Yeah, he would just fit right in.
• 24:50
  So, you know, the, the sense of like building that sense of like
• 24:53
  that, that community of, of learners who really wanted to.
• 24:59
  Yeah, I, I, I think, yes. You said the pursuit of
• 25:01
  extracurricular knowledge, right.
• 25:03
  It wasn't that kind of like knowledge that we normally
• 25:05
  associate with. Oh, this is practical.
• 25:07
  This is what my, you know, grandfather, blue collar worker
• 25:10
  would associate or we'll get you the JOB.
• 25:13
  But really it was this, you know, other side of like the
• 25:16
  academic kind of pursuit of like just that fulfillment of like,
• 25:19
  wow, this is engaging. This is stimulating.
• 25:24
  And this is, yeah, helping me to kind of like make deeper sense
• 25:28
  of the not only like that the world that they had inhabited,
• 25:32
  right, with these mythologies and like these, you know,
• 25:34
  ancient civilizations and peoples, but also maybe have
• 25:38
  some solid reference point for what about the world that we're
• 25:41
  living in right now? Is that a kind of conversation
• 25:44
  that you would have with either the people in the club or maybe
• 25:48
  this was on a higher level beyond high school in like
• 25:52
  college and you know, you know, or your PhD studies where the
• 25:57
  the the learnings from these ancient civilizations and the
• 26:00
  language played an important role in helping you make better
• 26:05
  sense of current civilization that we're all a part of, right.
• 26:10
  So was there any conversations or do you have any thoughts
• 26:13
  about that kind of like bridging effect between, you know, back
• 26:17
  then and right now? Absolutely.
• 26:21
  I think what has made me really fall in love with the ancient
• 26:26
  world and Latin, the the Latin language and the Greek language,
• 26:31
  they're my vehicles to it. It's that these people from
• 26:39
  thousands of years ago have so much in common with us.
• 26:46
  There's a Roman poet, his name is Catullus, and he writes a
• 26:50
  poem that says I hate and I love right it.
• 26:58
  And the poem is very short. And he's like, I, I don't know
• 27:00
  why I do the, I don't know why I'm stuck between these two
• 27:05
  strong emotions, but I am. And I'm, I'm tortured by them.
• 27:10
  Like that's every love song, you know, we've got on the radio.
• 27:15
  Like it just speaks to this sort of universal human experience in
• 27:21
  a way that I I just really love digging into that.
• 27:26
  I want to read more about and more and more about as we as you
• 27:30
  know, time goes on, You've got sure we can go with, you know,
• 27:37
  Western civilization is built upon sort of these ancient Roman
• 27:43
  ideals. And the idea of democracy is,
• 27:46
  you know, comes out of ancient Athens.
• 27:49
  We absolutely those things are important comparisons and
• 27:55
  evolutions. But I think what I find most
• 27:58
  fascinating is the poetry where you get feelings, you recognize,
• 28:08
  right, that you you have an emotional response that that
• 28:11
  person was writing about. They can affect that in you.
• 28:19
  And so I think it's just part of our greater humanity in that
• 28:24
  regard. And so I guess looking back, it
• 28:28
  does give sort of a lens, I think to how I evaluate the
• 28:33
  current and modern world around me.
• 28:37
  But I think that's also why I feel it's important to study
• 28:45
  these things because it, it, you're right, it's an unusual
• 28:48
  thing to study. It used to be common in schools
• 28:51
  that used to be part of the national curriculum in the UK.
• 28:55
  They took it out, they added it back, you know, and you'd be
• 28:59
  surprised at how many people actually have had the
• 29:04
  opportunity to take Latin. And I could name drop all kinds
• 29:07
  of people, but I'll give you 1 solid example.
• 29:11
  In the show Loki with Tom Hiddleston and they show up at
• 29:17
  the eruption of Mount Vesuvius. He was a Latin student, so he
• 29:21
  pretty much, he wrote the dialogue and spoke it himself
• 29:25
  and stuff. So you get a lot of people where
• 29:27
  you'd be really, really surprised that they studied
• 29:29
  Latin and they found something just formative in it.
• 29:34
  And you know, the JCL it. At one point we were competing
• 29:43
  in membership with the Boy and Girl Scouts.
• 29:48
  In terms of student LED organizations.
• 29:51
  Numbers are dwindling as education shifts away from Latin
• 29:55
  because of that pragmatic piece, but we're seeing lots of trends
• 30:00
  with schools trying to add it back.
• 30:03
  So we'll we'll see where that goes.
• 30:05
  The pendulum kind of swings in that STEM piece, you know,
• 30:09
  swings away from humanities go STEM and then kind of comes
• 30:14
  back. We'll see where we are in that
• 30:17
  sway pretty soon. I hope so that we know, but I
• 30:22
  just. For me, Latin unlocks all kinds
• 30:27
  of things, both for you and in you.
• 30:34
  That's powerful. And Speaking of powerful, that
• 30:39
  first poem that you mentioned about by that Roman poet, I
• 30:43
  think it was titled I Hate and I Love is.
• 30:45
  That correct? It doesn't.
• 30:46
  It doesn't have a title but those are the first 3 words Odie
• 30:50
  ET Amo I hate and I love. OK, I was just thinking of like,
• 30:55
  wow, that's like the that was like Taylor Swift, you know,
• 30:59
  like she could totally write a song just called I hate and I
• 31:02
  love and. IA 100% would make those
• 31:05
  comparisons with my students about, you know, Taylor versus
• 31:10
  Catullus and, you know, how different are these?
• 31:13
  Or if you were going to, you know, create a soundtrack to
• 31:16
  Catullus poems, which Taylor songs would match up with which
• 31:19
  poems, stuff like that. It's it's something, there's
• 31:23
  something just universal about it.
• 31:24
  You know, they talk about the ancient poets, talk about, well,
• 31:29
  I shouldn't just say poets, but the authors, they talk about
• 31:32
  friendship and what that means. They talk about duty and honor
• 31:36
  and what that means. You know, how they struggle with
• 31:39
  it. They talk about, you know, what
• 31:43
  is there beyond this life, right?
• 31:46
  All of these, all of these existential questions, and I use
• 31:51
  the term existential not just as philosophical terms, but the
• 31:53
  questions of our existence and how we evaluate it.
• 31:57
  All of that can be found in these ancient poets.
• 32:00
  And now I don't want them to sound like super highfalutin.
• 32:03
  You know, the Romans had, you know, they had graffiti on
• 32:07
  bathroom walls and everything too.
• 32:09
  So, you know, it doesn't have to be this, oh, super high brow,
• 32:15
  only the epic poets and only the philosophers kind of approach,
• 32:20
  right. We, we have evidence of them
• 32:22
  scribbling dirty jokes on walls and you know, those kinds of
• 32:28
  things. But again, to the human
• 32:30
  experience, that's a touchstone we can relate to.
• 32:35
  So I, I just continually fascinated by that, you know, by
• 32:41
  that tie. Yeah, I'm fascinated by it.
• 32:45
  I'm becoming more and more fascinated the, you know, the,
• 32:48
  you know, the longer we're having this conversation because
• 32:51
  it's it's so true, right? Like we, we don't really stop to
• 32:54
  think, especially on that kind of like a timescale, right?
• 32:58
  Of like just so long ago. We're talking like what, like
• 33:02
  1000 years ago plus, yeah, a couple thousand years ago of
• 33:07
  just like how these deep emotions, right, that are part
• 33:12
  of the human experience have been wrestled with.
• 33:15
  And it would they were grappling with this.
• 33:18
  And that actually a lot of the insights that they'd arrived to
• 33:23
  are things that, you know, we can really appreciate in our
• 33:27
  current, you know, milieu. And.
• 33:30
  And I think part of that appreciation comes from maybe
• 33:34
  the value of like, wrestling with something as complex as
• 33:38
  love, hate or friendship in general and being like, wow, you
• 33:43
  know, yeah, it's, it's, it is a challenge and it's difficult.
• 33:46
  But at at the same time, being engaged in that pursuit gives
• 33:51
  life value. And and it's what you make of
• 33:54
  it. But again, it's like having that
• 33:57
  reassurance that like people from before us have, you know,
• 34:01
  experienced that themselves. I think that's really, yeah,
• 34:04
  it's really, it's really awesome.
• 34:05
  I I, I find myself very blown away by by that.
• 34:08
  So, you know, the, it seems like you're, you're interested in
• 34:13
  like the poetry side of it and probably even like going into
• 34:16
  like the philosophy realm as well are what really grounds
• 34:20
  you. Rather than just like the kind
• 34:21
  of like I think you mentioned this, like the building blocks
• 34:25
  of civilization and democracy and all of that being true.
• 34:29
  It just feels so much, I don't know, more static, you know,
• 34:34
  like they were like literal like blocks just kind of put down for
• 34:38
  civilization rather than the messiness of, again, our
• 34:43
  humanity. So do you know the fact that you
• 34:46
  can bring that into conversation with students that you you
• 34:50
  teach, I think it's really, really brilliant.
• 34:53
  And so actually that's a great segue because, you know, you've
• 34:56
  taught for, for many a year and are quite experienced in the
• 35:00
  classroom. So could you speak a little bit
• 35:02
  more about the, the students that you, you taught?
• 35:06
  Like what, what grade level are we talking about?
• 35:09
  And, and, and I guess my question is what, like, at what
• 35:15
  point did you realize that, you know, teaching was your thing,
• 35:19
  that you really enjoyed teaching?
• 35:23
  So I started out teaching high school.
• 35:29
  I had a first class of freshmen that were, I could call them
• 35:34
  like scamps and scallywags. I can do that because I'm still
• 35:37
  in touch with many of them. And a couple of them became
• 35:42
  Latin teachers themselves. And I have worked with middle
• 35:49
  school students. Middle school was really my
• 35:52
  husband's Forte. I mean, he he could be silly
• 35:55
  with them. And it took me a while to really
• 35:58
  get to that point where I didn't take myself in the classroom so
• 36:02
  seriously. But I think I could go in every
• 36:09
  day and watch a student's eyes light up with some connection
• 36:13
  that they made, like, oh, I finally get it.
• 36:15
  Or oh, I, I struggled with this declension and these charts, or
• 36:19
  I really didn't understand how to study this thing, but I did.
• 36:22
  And so every kid was finding something valuable, you know,
• 36:30
  for themselves. Sometimes it was pragmatically
• 36:33
  valuable. Sometimes it was emotionally or
• 36:36
  philosophically valuable, and sometimes it was a piece of
• 36:40
  character that they could find, right?
• 36:44
  Like they, you know, they, they stuck with it or they learned to
• 36:47
  ask for help or they found out they themselves could articulate
• 36:54
  what we were learning to their fellow students and they could
• 36:56
  be helpful. So all of these little pieces in
• 37:00
  the classroom, I think they go well beyond Latin.
• 37:04
  Latin just can be kind of an equalizer because you don't have
• 37:07
  a lot of people coming into it with prior knowledge.
• 37:11
  So they might know some stuff, but nobody is coming, You know,
• 37:15
  nobody's coming in with the declensions already in their
• 37:18
  head when they first started. And so I think that became sort
• 37:26
  of a point of inspiration. But going through it every day
• 37:31
  as a group also really built a lot of bonds, I would say.
• 37:38
  When did I know I was going to be a teacher or wanted to be a
• 37:42
  teacher? Probably like my third year of
• 37:44
  teaching. Although people, people around
• 37:47
  you, around me would tell me that, you know, I was the one
• 37:51
  working with students and tutoring them, right?
• 37:54
  I was like volunteering and doing stuff like that.
• 37:56
  And I was kind of naturally leaning that way.
• 38:00
  I just didn't see it for myself. And graduate programs being what
• 38:07
  they are, I was very fortunate at the University of Florida
• 38:11
  that I was able to grow into the PhD program there, which was
• 38:16
  new. And so a lot of funding had
• 38:19
  shown up for those opportunities.
• 38:23
  And, you know, I, I helped no one say I helped.
• 38:29
  I guess I was in a department right where we were watching
• 38:33
  this sort of go all around us. But at some point, reasonably,
• 38:38
  funding runs out. And so at that point, I needed
• 38:43
  something to be able to continue so I could finish my degree.
• 38:47
  And at the time, the school at which my husband was teaching
• 38:51
  middle school Latin, they had an opening that I fit right into.
• 38:55
  And then he and I got to work together, which I will say comes
• 39:02
  with its ups and downs. It was a good thing we were in
• 39:04
  separate buildings. But with that, we got to really
• 39:13
  grow along with these kids that collectively we taught, you
• 39:18
  know, for six years. And that became something
• 39:24
  really, really special, I think. And that's, you know, that's not
• 39:29
  a typical of the Latin teaching experience, right?
• 39:34
  Even in larger modern language programs, sometimes you don't
• 39:37
  always have the same, you know, instructor.
• 39:40
  And you, you might be lucky enough to have the same one and
• 39:46
  grow with that person and really learn from them, not just their
• 39:49
  subject, but you know, more about the world.
• 39:55
  I mean, we were blessed to teach entire families.
• 40:00
  At one point, as as students matriculated through, we got to
• 40:04
  travel with them to Europe for their first, you know, ever
• 40:07
  international experiences and, and share that with them.
• 40:11
  So, you know, for a while there was a term that was kind of
• 40:15
  going around and lots of Latin clubs picked it up, but it was,
• 40:19
  it was Latin fam. And you know, just that again,
• 40:24
  that concept of finding your people and having these
• 40:29
  touchstones, I know so many students that from my program
• 40:33
  became friends with programs from around the state and around
• 40:36
  the country. And when they got to college,
• 40:38
  they're like, oh great, I know so and so here.
• 40:41
  And you know, we'll get together and do stuff.
• 40:43
  And it, it becomes this more than a network, I think, but it
• 40:50
  can be utilized that way. It it just becomes this piece of
• 40:54
  connection. So yeah, that sounds like an
• 41:01
  amazing teacher journey because I think like initially from from
• 41:06
  my experience as well, it it takes a while to really have
• 41:12
  that identity solidify, to have that belief in yourself be put
• 41:18
  before you for you to see it for what it is and to like claim it.
• 41:22
  And it sounds like for you, the first couple of years, I mean,
• 41:25
  just kind of being thrust into not only teaching, but also in
• 41:29
  tutoring capacities within the graduate program you were in,
• 41:33
  you just kind of inevitably found yourself doing the work.
• 41:37
  And then I think you said like in the third year, then finally
• 41:39
  you were like, oh, like now you thought you were just kind of
• 41:43
  like wading through the waters. And then you found out that it
• 41:45
  was coming up to your, your, your hip and you're like, wow,
• 41:48
  I've, I've gone pretty deep. And then it's just kind of
• 41:51
  further furthering as you go from one year to the next.
• 41:54
  And, and the communal aspect, the, the family component that
• 41:58
  you were Speaking of. That's, that's really important
• 42:02
  because I think when learning anything, especially like with
• 42:05
  languages, it's fraught with these, I don't know this, this
• 42:10
  perception of like, how are people seeing me?
• 42:13
  Like basically, do people think I sound like an idiot?
• 42:16
  That at least that's how I, I, I got that from like learning
• 42:19
  other languages like Spanish and Portuguese and Korean and, and I
• 42:24
  would always be so self-conscious about it.
• 42:26
  But when you're able to have that, like you said, great
• 42:29
  equalizer of like, hey, like this language hasn't been spoken
• 42:33
  out loud for I don't know how many years, right?
• 42:35
  Or it like, it's like everyone's coming into it with this, like
• 42:37
  new, this newness that any advancement is exciting, right?
• 42:42
  And it's just, you know, again, that like fossilized remains of
• 42:45
  like chipping away and just the more you put into it, the more
• 42:49
  it reveals itself. So that's, that's great.
• 42:53
  And like, you know, building those relationships over many
• 42:55
  years, I've also come to find as a teacher that's been most
• 43:00
  gratifying of all just, you know, knowing and I don't keep
• 43:04
  track of all the students because probably there's some
• 43:07
  students that are like, I don't even I don't want to have
• 43:08
  anything to do with you, Scott. And it's like that's OK.
• 43:11
  But for those students that I do know to hear that they're doing
• 43:15
  well or better yet, right, have taken up, you know, wanting to
• 43:19
  teach themselves, you know, that did the fact that you said that
• 43:23
  you have some students who went on to become Latin teachers says
• 43:26
  a lot about the influence that that you had on them.
• 43:31
  And then one other comment that kind of came into my head.
• 43:34
  And this is a little bit more of a silly comment, but, you know,
• 43:36
  again, thinking of Latin as like a dead, oh, no, not dead
• 43:39
  language, but an ancient language for sure.
• 43:42
  I always had this perception of like the teachers be like
• 43:44
  ancient, like really old. It's like, I don't know, I'm
• 43:48
  just imagining some like really old British white guy and just
• 43:54
  speaking, you know, like holding up a skull and like kind of
• 43:58
  like, I don't know, like like Shakespearean fashion and just
• 44:01
  like speaking, you know, Latin to a class.
• 44:04
  But especially when you started and still now, right, you know,
• 44:07
  both you and your husband. I know Dave, you both exude
• 44:11
  youthfulness and like, you know, vigor of like, yes, let's learn.
• 44:15
  So I'm sure that that really helped a lot in getting students
• 44:20
  to not only be interested in the subject, but to remain committed
• 44:24
  to to the study of it since, you know, while it's probably
• 44:28
  fascinating and exciting, it's still a language and it's still
• 44:32
  going to be very difficult. So I'm sure that that also
• 44:36
  factored into popularity to have, you know, young teachers
• 44:42
  who really are passionate about their subject.
• 44:45
  And so, you know, this, this, this discussion that we've been
• 44:48
  having about, you know, ancient, the ancient language of, you
• 44:53
  know, Latin and then kind of what it represents, you know,
• 44:58
  in, in a, in a, in a way, right. These fossilized remains convey
• 45:02
  so much deeper meaning and tie back to so many other kind of
• 45:06
  like artifacts that we can look towards and then really kind of
• 45:10
  like pull together to create a, a worldview.
• 45:15
  And, and, and I also, you know, appreciate that you've already
• 45:18
  kind of spoken to this kind of like bridging effect between
• 45:21
  like the the past and the, and the current day, but now kind of
• 45:25
  introducing the concept of the global citizen.
• 45:28
  I'm just curious to hear your thoughts about if that's
• 45:30
  something that would be applicable within this context,
• 45:36
  if it's you know, something that you've thought about either
• 45:40
  within your class or within your, your studies that there
• 45:43
  might be some, some relevance there.
• 45:46
  I'm just curious to just to hear your thoughts quickly about
• 45:48
  that. Sure.
• 45:50
  I think the study of these ancient languages gives people a
• 45:58
  perspective beyond their own. And in many ways the the
• 46:08
  fossilized cultures, these dead cultures give people a sort of
• 46:12
  safe space to be able to evaluate in, you know, their own
• 46:18
  selves from that other piece because there's always the
• 46:26
  balance between a cultural existence and an individual. 1
• 46:32
  And so as people look to the past, you know, it can be looked
• 46:40
  at in almost this might be dangerous territory.
• 46:44
  I don't want to say things are monolithic because this was a
• 46:47
  very complicated culture. You know, it's problematic in
• 46:52
  many, many ways. We're talking about a culture
• 46:55
  that conquered cultures that, you know, had very little
• 47:00
  problems with things like genocide.
• 47:02
  It's not all the cool gods and goddesses and things like that.
• 47:08
  I think those lessons though, are important to look at and can
• 47:14
  kind of be examined in a more imaginative and less real kind
• 47:27
  of way instead to look at problems of today that are
• 47:34
  dealing with living people right there.
• 47:40
  And I think the concept that we as modern humans have something
• 47:47
  in common with those ancient and gone humans should translate to
• 47:54
  mean we have things in common with the other humans around us.
• 48:02
  It doesn't always. That message doesn't always get
• 48:06
  across. And I think, you know, the, the
• 48:12
  study of classics has been really fraught because it was
• 48:19
  really started with just an, an elite sector, right?
• 48:23
  If you were the, you know, if you were a British royalty, this
• 48:27
  was expected of you, you, you would go off to Oxford,
• 48:31
  Cambridge and, and learn these kinds of things.
• 48:34
  And if you weren't, if you didn't have the means to study
• 48:37
  this, you, it didn't happen, right?
• 48:42
  So cautiously, right? I think there are many, many
• 48:49
  lessons to be learned and ways to explore the ancient world
• 48:55
  that can give people a better perspective and thoughtfulness
• 49:02
  as we communicate with each other and we learn about one
• 49:07
  another's cultures. And we're able to sort of like
• 49:10
  listen and take it in and line it up with our own and see more
• 49:17
  how we are all alike. We we hate, we love, we laugh.
• 49:25
  So how, how can we leverage those commonalities right to be
• 49:32
  citizens of the world? Well said.
• 49:36
  I, I think that, you know, there's, there's a lot that,
• 49:40
  that, that you were sharing about the, the importance of
• 49:43
  like perspectives, especially when it comes to like the, the
• 49:48
  distant past as a way to kind of glean insight through this
• 49:55
  examination of what happened in particular segments of, of time
• 50:00
  almost had like a case study. I feel where it can give you
• 50:03
  this, you know, opportunity to see what were some of the kind
• 50:08
  of like outcomes, right, pathways that were forged and
• 50:13
  how did that play out for them with no judgement, right,
• 50:16
  Because you're not going to offend them.
• 50:18
  They're they're long gone. So that's maybe the safe space
• 50:21
  that you were talking about that, you know, gives us a
• 50:24
  little bit more. I don't know, like what it gives
• 50:29
  us. What's the word like we're,
• 50:32
  we're OK with going forward with it.
• 50:34
  I, I, I the word escape to me. I don't know what it is, but
• 50:36
  yeah. So there's the perspective side
• 50:37
  of it and then the commonalities of just like understanding that,
• 50:41
  you know, in that shared humanity, that there's so much
• 50:44
  more that that we share in common then really what just
• 50:47
  differentiates us. And I think that's also really
• 50:51
  in line with, yeah, this this notion of of global citizenship
• 50:56
  really, you know, us being, you know, one human race.
• 51:00
  That's one thing with that humanity that we're all equally
• 51:04
  desperately trying to understand and reconcile with and and
• 51:09
  ultimately just live good lives, you know, and be to be happy.
• 51:12
  So I think that's that's very insightful and I and also makes
• 51:17
  me really want to to continue learning more about Latin.
• 51:22
  And you're showing the book is this, Is this the book
• 51:24
  recommendation? It is a book recommendation.
• 51:28
  So you said the good life, and that is exactly what this
• 51:32
  philosopher that I adore, Epicurus, that's exactly what he
• 51:39
  aspires to like What is the good life, right?
• 51:42
  That's what the ancient philosophers are delving into.
• 51:46
  Does it mean good character? Does it mean living well?
• 51:48
  Does it mean all of those things?
• 51:50
  And this is something I've started reading.
• 51:55
  It's ultimately by Daniel Klein, but he's looking at, you know,
• 52:03
  what does it mean when you're older and you look back?
• 52:06
  Do you feel fulfilled? And I think that's the true kind
• 52:10
  of fashion project of studying the ancients, right?
• 52:16
  How do you get your life to be more good in whatever iteration
• 52:23
  and interpretation you want that to be?
• 52:27
  That's awesome and thank you for that book recommendation.
• 52:31
  I have a quick thought to follow up what you just shared.
• 52:34
  Do you think in the same way that we like, or maybe have you
• 52:38
  ever had this thought that in the same way that you, you know,
• 52:42
  really dedicate so much time and effort into like exploring and
• 52:46
  understanding the ancients, As you said, that, you know, we're
• 52:50
  around thousands of years ago. Do you ever think about the
• 52:54
  future? People's right, thousands of
• 52:57
  years into the future, we'll like look back at what we're
• 53:00
  doing right now with the same kind of like curiosity.
• 53:04
  Do you ever think about that? They do it.
• 53:07
  I'm also a sci-fi fan, so like that fits right in that model.
• 53:11
  You know, the, I, I would hate to call it dystopian, but you
• 53:15
  know what, what are they going to think of when they find, you
• 53:21
  know, these artifacts or, you know, wow, we've uncovered, I
• 53:26
  don't know, a swimming pool from this culture.
• 53:30
  And we've carbon dated it to, you know, the, the mid 2000s and
• 53:34
  oh wait, we found this swimming pool and we've carbon dated it
• 53:38
  to, you know, not the mid 2000s AD or BCE, but BC what I mean,
• 53:44
  these people must really like swimming if they can identify
• 53:48
  that it's a pool at all. So what?
• 53:50
  If they come across this podcast, they're like, Oh my
• 53:53
  gosh, the these two had a wonderful conversation about
• 53:59
  education and Latin and family and you know, that's awesome.
• 54:05
  So I bet you you caught me in an archaeological bias there.
• 54:09
  I'm like, you know, rocks and urns and stuff and you're like,
• 54:13
  no, what we're doing now is an artifact.
• 54:15
  I. Digital art artifact.
• 54:17
  Digital digital archaeology is going to be a thing, man.
• 54:22
  I've never even thought about that seriously.
• 54:24
  But that's, that is true, right. I mean, that's so much of like
• 54:27
  the world that we're building around us, but maybe not as
• 54:31
  enduring, I think as like the actual like, kind of, you know,
• 54:34
  rock and like sediment to compounds and the the, the
• 54:37
  depths of this Earth. But but still nonetheless, you
• 54:41
  know, I'm sure we'll invent something clever to like make it
• 54:44
  last because we we tend to do that.
• 54:47
  But you know, that's yeah. So I mean, thank you generous so
• 54:51
  much. This has been so thought
• 54:54
  provoking, given the kind of like, you know, a stretching,
• 54:57
  you know, our imagination to way back when, you know, ancient
• 55:02
  civilizations were around and really in and then, you know,
• 55:05
  looking into the future as far as like, how will our
• 55:08
  civilization be looked upon and understood and what lessons will
• 55:12
  they live? I mean, like learn, you know,
• 55:14
  and who is the, the Taylor Swift of, you know, thousands of years
• 55:17
  into the future? These are important questions,
• 55:21
  like the the people demand answers, but you know, they'll
• 55:24
  have to wait. But you know, this has been such
• 55:26
  a joy to to have you on the podcast.
• 55:28
  And I really appreciate you sharing your, your story.
• 55:32
  And it's, it's clear that it's not just your individual story,
• 55:35
  but also story shared with, with your your mother and your
• 55:39
  grandmother and that, you know, your pursuit for knowledge and,
• 55:43
  you know, your passion for teaching has really touched the
• 55:45
  lives of of many, many, many people.
• 55:48
  And I think that's the, this is an important niche that needs to
• 55:52
  continue to be, you know, shared and developed as the pendulum
• 55:57
  inevitably swings the other direction.
• 56:00
  And so as we're kind of like closing out our conversation, I
• 56:03
  just wanted to give you the last, last words.
• 56:06
  Any final thoughts before we we kind of close out this
• 56:09
  conversation? Oh wow, It's absolutely worth
• 56:16
  looking into the past to see maybe who we are.
• 56:22
  Well, then considering like you're saying how that goes into
• 56:25
  the future and then just talking about it with one another.
• 56:30
  This has been delightful. And I mean, I think, yeah, the
• 56:35
  This is why, right? This is why right here.