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I Had a Wine Uber Guy : The Myth of “Fun” Drinking & the Reality of Sobriety · Recovering Out Loud

0:00
I didn't ever, ever, ever think that I had access to a life that
0:06
was different than the way I was living emotionally, physically.
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I just, I didn't know that I could have a friend.
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Like there was the thing this summer where I had a boyfriend
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and a best friend at the same time.
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And that has never happened to me before.
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And it was difficult to navigate.
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But I'm like, Oh my God, all of these things that if I was three
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years ago sitting in my condo just covered in wine from the
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night before, I would have been like, that's not possible.
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I'll sooner die, you know, So being able to actually say to
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people like, no, it does fucking get better, Like, but you have
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to trust the process. Hi there, welcome back or
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welcome to Recovering Out Loud podcast, the show where we get
0:47
real about mental health and addiction.
0:50
I'm so glad you're here. If you or someone you love is
0:53
struggling with drugs or alcohol, please reach out for
0:56
help. Send me a message on all social
0:59
media platforms at Recovering Out Loudpod or by e-mail at
1:04
recoveringoutloudpod@gmail.com. You are no longer alone.
1:24
No addiction is kind of the same thing, right?
1:26
You scrape your knee long enough and you ask for help, and
1:28
finally the help comes are. You good at asking for help, no?
1:32
I suck at. It.
1:33
Yeah, I suck at it. What does it look like for me?
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What? I have to get caught doing shit.
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Yeah, and then you'll be like I. Need help like I have to get in
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trouble right? I always tell the story, but
1:46
quickly like I I had a thing with not too long ago.
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Actually I've always had a body, just one of everything.
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I mentioned that too when we talked and it's why I, it's not
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why I relapse. I shouldn't say that, but it
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started this relapse with steroids and all this thing I
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was talking about on here. So I won't go into too much
2:01
detail, but I think 456 months in, something around that mark,
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I was using Ozempic online and in recovery and I knew it wasn't
2:12
good. And I'm not, listen, I'm not
2:14
here to tell anyone not to do it cause I've since learned that a
2:16
lot of people are on it. That's your thing, right?
2:20
For me, this is what happens when I start to do things, even
2:22
though it doesn't directly alter my mind.
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It starts with a little secret and then I'm like embarrassed
2:28
about it. I'm ashamed about it.
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And Fast forward to me smoking meth again.
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Like that's how. Can you tell anybody that you
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were doing Ozempic like through online so or was that a secret?
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That you were doing a great question and that's that's the
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problem is I'll tell you 90% of it like I'm trying to think of
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an example like I was using it and now I'm not right.
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So it's like it's, it's still a fucking lie.
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It's a blatant lie, yeah, but it's just like, makes.
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You. But you sneak around it, you
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know, and tell the full truth. Yeah.
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Truths are really the way to survive.
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It's minute by minute, hour by hour.
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Until you die. Even when we went to the we, we
3:04
went to a cottage. Well, my sister and I have a
3:06
cottage and we went and I didn't tell my sister that all the
3:10
boyfriends were coming up. I was, I just said the girls
3:13
were going and I don't even know why I did that.
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I think I was like didn't want her to get annoyed that like
3:18
they were guys that are going to be there.
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So I didn't tell her that. And then on the podcast, we said
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that we were bringing the guys up and then she called me.
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She was like, so I just caught you in a lie and you're a liar.
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So tell me the truth and. So don't listen to the podcast
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I. Know I'm like fuck off Karen.
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That's my first answer too. Unfollow me, Dan.
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Yeah, I'm. Like if you don't like get away.
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But no, she's right. But it is half truths are like
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that's like our thing. It's our default, you know, and.
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It's funny because you say that and it might sound so stupid and
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insignificant, but when you're talking like, I'm just like, Oh
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my God, I get that right? It starts with this little thing
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and then you're lying about doing drugs.
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Like it's that's kind of the way I am, right?
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Yeah, it's like I'm going to be in trouble regardless of what
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I'm doing, so let me try and lighten the blow.
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But it's going to come back on me so much harder, and it's
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going to happen every time. But I'm going to do it.
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Yeah. You know, Yeah.
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And learn the hard way. So what happened with me and
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was, you know, looping back to the asking for help thing, My
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wife and I got into a fight. She was bringing up a lot of the
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stuff she has. She's doing a lot of healing,
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right? So she, she met me when I was 7,
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seven and a half, seven years sober, top of my game, like
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happy Joyce and free, right? Like things didn't bother me.
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And when I say that, I mean, I truly mean like the little
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things didn't bother me. I was just top of sobriety,
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doing well. And so she met the real me,
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which is great. And I think that's the only
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actually she says it. That's probably the only reason
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she stuck around because she met me.
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So when I relapsed, I went hard and I started doing benzos.
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I, I went to all these things I said I wouldn't do driving
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drunk, like actually I've driven drunk, but driving in blackouts.
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All these moral boundaries cross them all right, just one by one.
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And that's why I always say like I'm a true addict.
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I fully I'm a true addict because I think most people, if
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they relapse after 8 years, I think most people heavy
5:05
drinkers, they would have been like, whoa, you know, you have a
5:08
couple or and it was Adderall that that I started getting on
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and you're like, well, that was close.
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I better. Get before that.
5:15
Were you just alcohol or what Were you before?
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No, coke was my main. I'm always a stimulant guy.
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OK, Yeah, yeah, alcohol is always.
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I'm an alcoholic. I always say it.
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It's the same shit to me. I use outside things to change
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my insides. Yeah.
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Gambling. It's all the.
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Same relationships. Whatever I'll do, I'll use it
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all. How long did you relapse for?
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Like it was probably a year period of lies and and
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manipulation. So when I when I go back to my
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relapse, I I I attribute that year, but I didn't start
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drinking until probably a four month drinking meth.
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I'm at an Airbnb one day, one day on a couch, some guys pulls
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out a pipe and I'm just like, I'm never going to smoke meth,
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right. That's not I don't do that.
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I'm not that guy wants a meth. I'm like, I've already been
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taking in pills. Sure, why not?
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I'm already fucked up. And then you do it.
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Thank God I didn't get into that because some of the people I was
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hanging out with at the end, like I was going to maybe I
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shouldn't say the name of it, but an after hours club in
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Toronto on Sunday nights and I was like steady there.
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So I got to know the bouncers and stuff.
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No, it was a good place, right? They took care of me.
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Like the guy, the guy at the door there, I still talked to
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him actually. He knew I was struggling and he
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would always just like talk to me, 'cause I would tell him I'm
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like, I, you know, I shouldn't be here.
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Like I'm an addict. Like I'm not like these other
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people. Maybe, maybe they're, but I
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started hanging out with those people that were smoking meth
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and like just like that, you think like coke sessions are
6:34
sketchy and like you start to get to introduce that side of
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the world and it's just like a whole other how the fuck did I
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end up here? And that I'm not saying that
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those people are less than or I'm the same.
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I am that person. Right.
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But it is funny because having these conversations, sometimes I
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try to, like, step out and be a little objective.
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If we weren't junkies, respectfully, sitting here, like
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just my sister listening to you be like, yeah.
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So then I started, you know, taking this and now I'm smoking
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looking math. It's like, hey, like where's the
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jump? Like where did how did that
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happen? But yeah, it is all the same.
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So it it for us. I feel like it.
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It is like I'm drinking and I'm doing this and now I'm taking
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that. Yeah, what's next?
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Yeah, always looking for the next best thing cuz.
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It stops working after a while. Yeah.
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OK, Enough about me, girl. Undrunk.
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Yeah. Thank you so much for coming
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down. I love talking recovery.
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I love that you guys agreed to do this.
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And your podcast is fun. It's light.
7:27
It's controversial. Yeah.
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I find myself listening to it. I'm like, oh, fuck, did she just
7:32
say that? Like.
7:33
And I love that shit. I love dark humor.
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I love it. I think.
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Let's start with this. What?
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So what do you hope somebody listening to your message or
7:42
podcast, what do you hope they get out of it and start?
7:45
You can go one. I guess just that they're not
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alone if they're feeling, if they themselves are an addict,
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if they have an addict friend, family member, just addiction is
7:57
real and doesn't mean that they're bad people.
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Like we're we're not bad people at the end of the day.
8:03
And yeah, just that you're not alone and there's hope for you.
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If you want to get sober, you can do it.
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We wanted enough and we got sober.
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It's just the wanting and getting there is hard.
8:16
And we talk a lot about that, Yeah.
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Yeah, I think I addiction and everything that comes with
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addiction is so chaotic. And I think most of my life
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growing up I was very much like, I don't know what the fuck is
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going on and why everything feels like this and going
8:35
through the system and being like, OK, a lot of people feel
8:38
this way, but we're all quiet about it, right?
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Like I grew up thinking I was a piece of shit, but I'm pretty
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and I am active and I do things, but I'm like, I'm not OK inside
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and a lot of people aren't. And I think when you don't even
8:50
know how to put a label to that or words to that, you just feel
8:54
alone and lost. And so I really, I think both of
8:58
us are really very much like, hi, we're here.
9:00
Like when you're ready, wherever you're at, addiction, sobriety,
9:04
like eating disorders, toxic relationships, like we're here 0
9:09
judgement because we have literally done and seen it all.
9:12
Yeah. So it's just really a place
9:15
where you can come and be welcome and then talk about
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crazy. Shit, yeah.
9:19
And I complain. I was so scared at first to be
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saying all the shit online, and now it's like it feels so
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natural. Like what else would I be doing?
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I love nothing more. It's the best thing.
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Once you start talking about sobriety, it really becomes the
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the best thing because you can relate to everyone all the time.
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You know about everything. It's funny you bring that up
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because whenever when I first started, I kind of came to this
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realization too, where I was like, this is this is my old or
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nothing thinking, but everybody in the world could possibly hear
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what I'm about to say. Yeah, you have.
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To wrap your head around that. I don't even really think about
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it too much. I don't think.
9:59
No, I don't. Yeah.
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But when I first started, it was like that.
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I kind of had to accept that. At that point, right?
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My aunts, my uncles and, you know, yeah.
10:07
Yeah, the, it's the family first.
10:08
They're like, sorry. To your point, like at, I don't
10:11
know, whenever we go out for dinners and stuff, my aunts
10:13
stuff like fuck Thanksgiving. Was it Thanksgiving?
10:17
No, yeah, Thanksgiving. Yeah, Thanksgiving yesterday for
10:20
America. But I'm all a little bit.
10:22
We're sitting down at the table, we're going around what we're
10:24
grateful for. And my fucking aunt goes, I'm so
10:26
grateful to learn more about my nephew's addiction.
10:29
And like she started tearing up. She's like, I didn't.
10:31
She's like, I had no idea. I've been learning so much and
10:34
she listens to every episode. Shout out to the Cathy.
10:37
But yeah, it was amazing. She's like, I've learned so
10:40
much, right? And she was so grateful for it
10:42
and it's awesome. Yeah, there's been some like
10:45
fights I've had with some family members and friends about what I
10:49
say on the podcast. But at the end of the day, like
10:52
I told my one friend that I was scared to do the podcast when we
10:55
were first starting. And she was like, why are you
10:58
scared? And I said, well, what if like,
11:00
people don't like what I'm saying?
11:01
What if they don't agree? And she just said, like, if they
11:05
do, then those aren't your people.
11:07
And I think that's just very telling of the situations I've
11:11
had since saying some of the stuff I've said on the podcast.
11:14
Yeah. And that's, that's whatever.
11:17
Yeah, And I think at the end of the day, too, like we almost
11:19
died a lot of times. Like we really almost didn't
11:22
make it. And like, I don't want that for
11:25
other people. Like I really want to just if we
11:28
can touch anyone's lives, save anyone's lives, like we get
11:31
that. And like, if honestly, I feel
11:34
like if you almost fucking die, then you have to talk about it,
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you know, It just feels like that's what we're meant.
11:40
To do someone else has been through that. 100% for sure,
11:43
yeah, Everywhere, all the time. Yeah, yeah, it's.
11:46
True. Yeah.
11:47
The one thing, too, I find about what I like about listening to
11:51
you guys is this boredom and recovery thing keeps coming up,
11:55
right? How am I gonna have fun?
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I was so fun when I was drinking, right?
11:59
That's my favorite thing. Yeah, it's like.
12:01
You were not. Fun.
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Let's look at the last. 30 days, you tell me how it went, right?
12:06
Why are we even talking in the 1st place?
12:08
Obviously there's some. Anyways, yeah, I digress.
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But I just, it feels fun listening to you guys.
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And I think it's important, especially for young women
12:16
coming in, but anybody to to be able to know that holy fuck,
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there's people that are having fun.
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Like they sound fun, they're having fun.
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They're talking about doing shit sober fun.
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I can do that too, right? It's important, I think.
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Yeah, it feels impossible at first.
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I I I sit sometimes in our podcast studio and I just look
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around and I'm like, not even the podcast, but I didn't like I
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text Zoe all the time just being like, I love you.
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I'm grateful for you. She.
12:41
Said you're a really nice paragraph yesterday.
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Yeah, I did. I.
12:44
Was feeling very sentimental, I almost went but also.
12:46
Fuck off. Like oh sorry, fuck off.
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But I didn't ever. Ever, ever think that I had
12:56
access to a life that was different than the way I was
12:59
living emotionally, physically. I just, I didn't know that I
13:03
could have a friend. Like there was the thing this
13:06
summer where I had a boyfriend and a best friend at the same
13:08
time. And that has never happened to
13:10
me before. And it was difficult to
13:12
navigate. But I'm like, oh, my God, all of
13:14
these things that if I was three years ago sitting in my condo
13:18
just covered in wine from the night before, I would have been
13:20
like, that's not possible. I'll sooner die, you know, So
13:25
being able to actually say to people like, no, it does fucking
13:30
get better, like, but you have to trust the process, Yeah, you
13:33
know. I know I think like I had an
13:35
epiphany the other day and I didn't even tell you.
13:37
I love that and I've been feeling like just more anxious
13:43
than usual the past couple weeks.
13:45
I blame it on my period. I thought you were gonna say I
13:47
blame it on Heather. No, I I blame it on my.
13:50
Period. This is when I talk to you.
13:52
Yeah. I actually hate you.
13:53
No, I don't. I'm done As of today, no.
13:56
I'm drunk cancelled. No, but I I was talking to my
14:01
sponsor and I think like, I am just been more anxious lately
14:05
because I have good things in my life that I've created.
14:10
Like I have an amazing boyfriend, I have an amazing
14:13
best friend, I have an amazing podcast.
14:15
And like, I've never done anything that I've loved so
14:18
much. I've always just worked shit
14:20
jobs I don't care about. This is something that we've
14:23
built that I am so proud of and that I love.
14:26
I've never experienced that. So I think it's good anxiety,
14:30
but it's like, yeah, it that's why I think I've been more
14:33
stressed because things are rolling now and I don't want to
14:37
lose it. I think it's like the fear of
14:38
losing these things. I don't think I, I don't think
14:42
I'm like worth it to have all these good things in my life.
14:46
So yeah, that's my epiphany. No, I feel the exact same way
14:49
it. Does like that.
14:50
Would you say it's kind of like imposter syndrome sometimes too?
14:53
Yeah, I used to get that a lot. I think I'd probably get it
14:55
again, but not currently. I'm not.
14:57
Yeah, I've experienced it for for sure.
14:59
I think like I used to always when things were good in my
15:02
life, I would just get super black out and ruin everything,
15:05
you know, like fuck everything up.
15:08
And I think maybe I'm scared that I'm gonna like, fuck
15:11
everything up somehow, but I'm not.
15:15
That's actually. Really nice.
15:16
I swear I'm not gonna do that. That's.
15:18
Actually really nice to hear because that's how I feel all
15:20
the time. I'm so scared.
15:22
I'm like, I am on a train and I'm gonna fall off so fast.
15:24
But maybe Zoe says this to me all the time where I'll be like,
15:29
I'm a liar, like I'm a fuck up. I can't do this.
15:31
And she's like, no, no, you used to not be able to do that.
15:34
Like now you're not a liar. I'm like, oh, so maybe I can
15:36
stay on the train and just hold on and sit down.
15:39
Yeah, maybe it's OK. Take a seat like Oh my God.
15:43
Yeah, and that's one of my favorites.
15:44
And the beautiful part about that too is like, I don't know
15:46
the destination. And it's like, so it could be
15:49
anything, right? I wanna know the destination.
15:52
That's one of my things, like right now at least anyways, is
15:55
like I fear of the future. So I guess it's similar, right?
15:59
But fear of the. Future And now I feel like I'm
16:02
trying to control all these things but I can't.
16:04
And I don't know the destination, but I have to trust
16:07
in it. And I think like I do, it's just
16:09
been harder for me the past couple weeks to do that, which
16:13
is fine. Yeah, controlling outcomes,
16:15
right? It's if I can, if I know what
16:18
it's gonna be, then I feel more in control, more comfortable in
16:20
the moment. One of my good friends, actually
16:23
one of my wife's friend, wife's friends said to me, he focuses
16:26
on inputs, not outputs. And I love that.
16:29
It's just like doing the next right thing.
16:31
If you can't do the next right thing, do the next thing, right?
16:34
Which is one of my favorite sayings.
16:35
Like what's the right next thing?
16:36
Well, you got to brush your teeth.
16:38
Brush your teeth, right? Like just sometimes it's, it's
16:40
that granule, right? Keep the, the motive.
16:42
Yeah, the, the, I can't think of the word.
16:46
Anyways, keep it going. Now keep.
16:47
It going, Keep it. Moving OK, I want to hear about
16:52
the last 30 days of each of your drinking using so we'll start
16:56
start. With Zoe.
16:58
OK. What was the last 30 days like?
17:00
So the last 30 days for me, I was in Sarnia.
17:05
It was at the end of COVID and I had been fired from my job.
17:12
I had a DUII was just basically drinking at my parents house
17:19
every day. My dad had stopped talking to me
17:21
because he was scared that he was going to just find me dead
17:24
somewhere. So he just like avoided me for
17:28
everything. I didn't learn that until I went
17:30
to rehab. He wrote me a letter saying like
17:32
sorry I haven't been talking too much but I was scared that I was
17:35
just going to find you dead. So I wanted to distance myself
17:37
before seeing that, which was really hard to read that.
17:42
But and then the last week I was like, hey, fuck this, I'm moving
17:46
back to Toronto. I'm going to be happy in
17:48
Toronto. I'm going to be able to control
17:49
my drinking in Toronto. I need to go back.
17:52
That's where my friends are. I had nothing left in Sarnia.
17:54
My boyfriend broke up with me because I was crazy.
17:56
No job, couldn't drive anywhere in Sarnia.
17:59
Like how am I going to get around anywhere in this small
18:01
town? So I moved back to the city.
18:05
I tried to, I was applying for jobs.
18:07
I went to an interview drunk, blacked out there, don't know
18:12
what happened at all. Woke up the next day was like so
18:16
shameful of that. Obviously I was supposed to meet
18:20
my friends somewhere and I physically couldn't get onto the
18:26
subway to meet them. So I just like called them.
18:29
I I said I can't do it. And for some reason like at that
18:34
point I was just like, I need to go to rehab.
18:37
Like this is the last thing I haven't done.
18:39
I've tried everything else. My mom's been telling me to go
18:42
to rehab for like 5 years now. It's the last thing I haven't
18:45
done. And I think at some like that
18:50
was like my God moment of like, I can't believe I I can't
18:53
believe I called rehab in that moment, but I did.
18:57
So this part is all very fuzzy to me.
18:59
I don't know exactly how what happened, but I think I must
19:07
have told my friends like I'm going to go to rehab.
19:09
Like I can't meet you guys. I need to go whatever.
19:11
I call my mom and I tell her and I take an Uber to rehab and I
19:17
was so drunk at this point that they're like, you can't come
19:20
here. I was banging on the door.
19:23
At rehab, I just. Showed up I.
19:24
Was like please stay responsible today.
19:26
But you didn't do any intake or anything?
19:28
No, I didn't. I didn't.
19:29
Know where you are, Send the money.
19:30
I'm going. Send the money.
19:32
Send the rehab money. Write the rehab.
19:34
Check. Rehab.
19:35
Yeah, seriously. Make it out to me, it'll be
19:39
fine. I I didn't know that I was
19:43
banging on the door. They told me that after as well,
19:46
which is just hilarious. But then they were like, you
19:50
need to go to the hospital to detox, I think before you could
19:53
go to rehab. So I was like, OK, fine, like
19:55
I'll go and. Threw out somewhere in that
20:02
point I think like on the way to rehab I probably threw my phone
20:05
into a ditch being like, I don't need my phone, I'm going to.
20:08
Rehab. I'm a new woman.
20:10
Really just everything is just so crazy.
20:14
And then I think after trying to go to rehab, I was trying to go
20:20
to the hospital, but I didn't have my phone right and I had no
20:22
idea where I was. I was in the middle of
20:24
Etobicoke. I had no idea where I was and I
20:26
was knocking on a random person's my house to take me to
20:31
the hospital. And they opened the door and
20:33
they said, yeah, like they called me a taxi to the
20:36
hospital, which is so amazing. Thank you to whoever did that.
20:41
So I go to the hospital, obviously they're not seeing me
20:45
and I'm just sitting there and I'm starting to like wear off
20:49
the alcohol. And I'm like, Oh my God, what's
20:51
happening? And I give up at the hospital.
20:55
I just go home and I'm waiting for my parents to come pick me
20:59
up for like the next morning where they're going to properly
21:02
take me to rehab. And so that happens.
21:05
I wait like I didn't sleep that whole night.
21:08
I didn't get any alcohol, probably because I didn't have a
21:12
phone. I don't think I had a wallet at
21:13
that point. Like it was just like I didn't
21:15
have any access. And even if I did, I was just
21:19
like, so just beaten down of like there's like, I give up
21:24
like fuck this. Like, you know, and I was, I
21:28
showed up to rehab like a little baby and I had no idea what
21:32
rehab was going to entail. I don't think I knew I had to
21:36
stop drinking forever until like a weekend until I was like oh
21:42
fuck, like this is this is real. So were you doing you were doing
21:45
drugs as well or was alcohol mainly?
21:47
Alcohol was my main thing for sure.
21:49
I like when my friends were doing coke.
21:53
When my boyfriend was doing coke I always was like pitching in
21:57
and doing it as well. I bought coke once by myself and
22:00
did coke once by myself. So I don't necessarily think
22:03
like I'm a coke addict but like I obviously did whatever and if
22:08
anyone was doing something I was going to be doing it.
22:10
I almost did do meth once because I was in a car randomly
22:14
on the way to London with like 3 guys.
22:17
I have no idea how I ended up in that car.
22:20
They were all doing meth. They didn't have any more
22:22
alcohol for me so like I literally almost did it but
22:25
thank God I didn't. The guy who was driving was like
22:30
fucking cracked out and falling asleep at the wheel and I was in
22:34
the back seat. Had to wake him up every 5
22:36
seconds to like stay on. The road that was your.
22:39
Job yeah. It's like I couldn't be smoking
22:41
crack 'cause I was trying. I was like basically driving the
22:44
car. I mean, it goes back to your
22:46
should have been dead. So many.
22:46
I have so many scenarios like that where my friends are
22:49
driving and I'm just like, you just get that gut feeling right.
22:52
Even though you're messed up, You're like I.
22:54
This is not right. Like something this?
22:56
Clarity. I had, yeah.
22:57
I was like how did I end up in this?
22:59
Vehicle. That's what it is.
23:00
How did I end up? How did I end up here?
23:02
I'm a nice person, like I was raised by, you know, how did I?
23:05
Yeah. You're raised by decent people.
23:07
What the fuck happened? Now, the reason I ask you about
23:09
the drug thing is because you you mentioned that you didn't
23:12
know you were going to have to stop drinking for a bit.
23:14
So because my experience was I had a cocaine problem at 23.
23:17
I went three out of 23 the first time I get that guys understood,
23:21
check, I'm not an alcoholic. I'm going to drink like, let's
23:24
deal with the cocaine thing. And so two weeks into my rehab,
23:27
the guy's like, dude, you're an alcoholic.
23:28
Yeah, it was the hardest thing for.
23:30
Me. I don't know if I understood
23:32
what alcoholism was like. I don't think I fully understood
23:37
what I was doing 'cause I was so fucking just like, dazed all the
23:42
time. I don't think I knew anything.
23:45
So I think I learned in rehab that first week, like, oh, fuck.
23:49
Like I am an alcoholic and the solution is to stop drinking
23:53
forever. I think going in there, yeah, I
23:56
just wanted to, like, not die and not drink like a crazy
23:59
person. And then I realized that that's
24:02
not possible. That's a good point, actually.
24:04
I can relate to that too, where it's like I have a problem with
24:06
drugs, yes, but there's something else.
24:08
I'm, I'm, I'm broken, right? There's something else and it's
24:10
like, no, it's just the drugs. They just let's let's stop doing
24:14
the drugs for a bit and see what happens.
24:15
It's so it's so much easier to just like separate it in rehab.
24:19
Like rehab's amazing. Talk about love, rehab.
24:22
Love that. But can't can't wait to go back.
24:25
Careful. I'm like how much is a vacation?
24:29
Can I just like spend that and go to rehab for?
24:31
A little bit, and then they make all the friends in rehab.
24:33
Yeah. Queen bee.
24:35
So fun. Careful what you wish for, No.
24:37
Yeah. Then the three.
24:38
And it's like when you go back, especially after having eight
24:41
years, and it's yeah, it's humbling, especially when they
24:45
tell you to stay for an extra 30 days and you're like, I have
24:47
more. I've been in recovery longer
24:49
than fucking. These people were born like half
24:52
some of them, right? Like we had a fucking 16 year
24:54
old in ours, right. And it was like, that was a
24:57
crazy thing. Anyways, I felt really bad for
24:59
her. But we became like we became
25:02
friends over the time, which was cool because yeah, like, I don't
25:07
know, it was a whole thing. But this is the the beautiful
25:10
thing about recovery is that like it doesn't discriminate
25:14
one, but also like everything she would say, even though she's
25:18
like in a completely different, you know, and I don't recommend
25:21
this right? But I, I understood everything
25:24
she was saying. And then when I would say
25:25
something, she understood, right?
25:26
Doesn't mean we have to go hang out and you know, I, I know
25:28
there's a whole thing, right? I don't, I don't do that.
25:31
And I strongly, I preach against not doing that.
25:34
I hang out with guys, especially in early recovery.
25:36
That's a huge thing for me. I know you guys always talk
25:38
about that. Guys with guys, girls with girls
25:39
or whatever you identify as. Yeah.
25:41
But it's still like it's, it's just, it's amazing to me.
25:46
It's cool like. Generations, it's the same
25:48
feelings. Like some old man will say
25:50
something. I'm like, yeah, I relate to
25:52
that. Or like some young woman who's
25:54
half my age will say something and I'm like, oh, fuck yeah.
25:57
True. Yeah, you relate to, because
26:00
sobriety and addiction is such a specific thing, like anyone's
26:07
stories, you can relate to it. And I think that's why the
26:09
podcasting about it is so great, because.
26:13
We're not that unique. We're not.
26:14
We're not special. A lot of people have this
26:18
disease and yeah. So, Heather, walk us through
26:23
your. My.
26:25
Last 30 days, what did that look like?
26:27
My last 30 days, I definitely, we have different stories.
26:31
I was an indoor cat for sure. I, my last 30 days I would say
26:36
was prepping to die or to go to rehab and I knew that those are
26:42
my options. I think like for a few months
26:47
before that, I've been waking up in the middle of the night sober
26:50
and being like, fuck, I got to stop.
26:53
Like I'm having heart palpitations And I always had,
26:56
but they were getting worse and I was there was a few times
26:59
where like my whole left side was like in so much pain.
27:04
I didn't tell anybody. I was just lying in my bed and
27:06
I'm like, OK, like this might this might be it.
27:09
I'm this could, I could die. There's also, and then I'm also
27:12
an addict where I'm like, probably not.
27:13
And then I'm going to drink again.
27:14
But I was having more and more of these like thoughts of like,
27:18
oh, yeah, yeah, I think I'm ramping up to die.
27:21
Like I really think that I was huge.
27:24
I was so puffy. I was so sick.
27:26
I couldn't. I would take.
27:28
The only thing that I was doing consistently as a real person
27:31
was taking my dog to the park every morning and I would go to
27:34
the park at 8:00 AM, throw up at the park, order wine rack so
27:38
that when I would get home he would meet me and then I would
27:40
drink all day. She had a wine guy.
27:42
She. Was gonna say.
27:44
Did you know you order through the OPS at the end?
27:46
She just had this guy that would bring her wine.
27:49
Yeah, dial a ball, he. Worked for.
27:51
Valet service. Well, he did Uber Eats, and then
27:53
he kept coming to my house, which at some point stopped
27:56
being embarrassing. It was every single morning he'd
27:58
be at my house giving me wine. And then eventually he was like,
28:01
why are we going through the app?
28:02
Just text me. Yeah, so some guy delivering
28:06
Basque 0 sugar wine to my house every fucking day, but I
28:11
couldn't do things like I couldn't put my hair in a
28:13
ponytail or I'd be winded. Like I'd have to sit, I couldn't
28:16
tie my shoes. Everything was like exhausting
28:20
and I was listening to Armchair Expert every day.
28:24
I mean, I always listen to it, but Doc Shepard relapsed and
28:28
then he did an episode called Day 7.
28:29
I don't know if you've listened to it, but it's.
28:31
So good. You gotta listen.
28:32
Yeah, I. Like him I love.
28:34
Him. Yeah, yeah, it's really good.
28:35
And I, I listen to that every day.
28:38
I think I listened to it 14 times before I called rehab
28:40
because I was like, I'm gonna go, like I need to go.
28:44
And I knew, I knew I had to stop because I've been, I've been an
28:47
addict since I was like 9, honestly.
28:48
Like I had OCD when I was a kid and then eating disorder started
28:52
and like took over my whole life.
28:54
So I knew that if I was going to stop something, it had to stop
28:56
for good. I was not sure I wanted to go.
29:02
I definitely didn't want to stop drinking, but I knew I had to.
29:05
So I was like, OK, the in between and then I was scaring
29:08
myself. Like I, I don't know why I like
29:10
saying this always makes me so emotional.
29:12
But like, I was my sister and I lived in the same building.
29:16
So she had a key to my house. Like she could come up.
29:17
But I was like overfilling my dog's bowl at night because he
29:24
could like stay alive for three days if I fed him enough, like
29:27
if I gave him enough food because I was like, Oh, well, if
29:29
Karen comes up, my sister, I can't have her find both of us
29:33
dead. So at least Nike, my dog will be
29:35
alive. If she finds me dead, it won't
29:37
be like double trauma. So I was doing that, which is so
29:41
crazy to think about. Like I'm planning for my death.
29:46
And that was making me really sad and scared.
29:49
And I had this like little piece, like I feel like we all
29:52
lose it where it's like, fuck me forever.
29:54
I'm a loser. I've always felt this way, like
29:56
I don't deserve to be here. But then there's like this
29:59
little thing inside me that was like, but I secretly think that
30:03
somewhere deep inside me, I'm fucking amazing.
30:06
I am like, I just know that. And I, I don't know what this
30:11
is, but it's not right and it's not me and it doesn't have to
30:15
be, which is like obviously like all of these like thoughts going
30:18
through my head, but I'm like listening to day 7 Dax Shepard's
30:22
podcast over and over again. I'm drunk out of my mind at like
30:26
10:00 AM. I'm so fucked up.
30:27
And I'm like, I'm going to listen.
30:28
I'm going to call rehab. I was like scrolling.
30:30
I'm like, I googled luxury rehabs Toronto and like it sent
30:35
me to Muskoka. And I was like great.
30:37
Like the first one I chose, like I just called them and I was
30:39
like, I'm really drunk, can I come?
30:41
And like I had two weeks. I had to fly Nike to my parents
30:45
in Florida and then come home and go to rehab.
30:47
But once I called and I was like, I'm sick, I need to come.
30:53
And it was immediate for me. Like they were like, great, we
30:55
have a spot for you. My whole body like just relaxed.
31:00
I felt like I could fucking breathe.
31:02
And I was still going to drink up until the time I went to
31:04
rehab, but I was like. At least there was a plan for
31:06
you. Someone's got me now.
31:07
Like someone knows what's going on.
31:10
No one else knows, but someone knows everyone they're talking.
31:15
About wine guy, definitely. Yeah, the wine guy knew.
31:17
He texted me when I was in rehab and I showed my counselor and
31:20
he's like, you gotta delete that number.
31:21
You're like, delete all your dealers, even if it's the wine
31:24
guy. Like, yeah, I'm like, oh, I
31:26
guess he is my dealer. And I thought.
31:27
Of it that way, yeah, so too. He's just like peddling over
31:30
he's. Like Oh my God, got stacks of
31:32
cash on. Him just, I'm like, there's one
31:35
client keeping him afloat. I hope he's OK.
31:37
Yeah, but but yeah, I, I just, I told them I was like, I have to
31:42
go. And then I'm like, still
31:44
drinking. I called my sister and my sister
31:47
actually, we've gotten really, really close since I've gone to
31:50
rehab. We were close before, but it's
31:52
hard to be close to me because I'm not here.
31:55
But I called her and I was crying and I was like, I know
31:57
you don't like when I'm sentimental and cry, but like I
31:59
have to go to rehab, like all this shit.
32:00
And she was like, oh, I don't care when you're sentimental or
32:03
cry. She's like, I just don't like
32:04
when you talk about blowjobs. It's like I would love for that
32:07
to stop in sobriety. And I was like, OK, OK, so.
32:10
It's so specific. Yeah, well, she always is just
32:13
like Jesus Christ, like everything else in my life is
32:15
fine. But she I told her I like asked
32:18
her if my parents would be mad. She was like, no, I can tell
32:21
them if you want me to, but go tell them.
32:23
And the reason I bring up Dax and Monica so much is because I
32:28
they've saved my life, 100% saved my life.
32:31
I was always in trouble as a kid.
32:34
So I'm going too long. I'm always in trouble as a kid
32:37
all the time. Like I was just a bad kid and or
32:40
bad, you know, but I just thought in my head like I'm a
32:45
fuck up and going to rehab is so shameful for my family,
32:49
especially that like they're going to be mad and I don't know
32:54
how I'm going to do this. Like they might hate me forever,
32:56
even though of course they were thrilled because they're like
32:58
you are going to die look insane.
33:01
But I thought like, OK, if my parents are mad at me and they
33:03
hate me and they think I'm the worst, like Dax and Monica would
33:07
be so fucking proud of me and I care about them so much and so
33:12
fuck everybody else. They would say it's a good idea.
33:16
So I'm going to go. So that was like, that was my
33:19
last 30 days. What do what?
33:21
What about that episode do you like?
33:23
Kind of sticks out for you. Well, I think just the fact that
33:27
it happened and it made it more real because Dax was talking
33:30
about his addiction all the time.
33:31
Seems like on a pedestal. Yeah, yeah.
33:33
And then and I always loved it. Like I always loved every
33:36
episode he'd talk about addiction.
33:37
I'm like, I'm in it. I like that deep, dark, gross
33:39
shit. But that episode, he was like
33:43
struggling. And I was like, oh, OK, I'm
33:46
struggling. And Monica, the way that she's
33:49
talking to him and is there for him and cares, I'm like, oh, OK.
33:53
Like he, everyone wants him to get better.
33:56
Like I want him to get better. So maybe I'm a person that
33:59
people want to get better. So yeah, it just really like
34:03
held me the whole time I went through rehab.
34:05
Yeah. Like his vulnerability opened
34:07
this window. Yeah.
34:08
To where you could relate to him.
34:09
Yeah. And allow yourself to to start
34:13
to think about healing in some way and that you're worth it.
34:16
Right. That's beautiful.
34:17
That's awesome. Yeah.
34:17
And that's like why you wanted to start the podcast so badly.
34:20
Yeah. Because you know how much his
34:22
podcast saved you. Yeah.
34:24
And we want to just save other people as well.
34:26
Totally, Yeah. That's incredible.
34:31
So how did you guys meet? How did you guys start?
34:34
Like what's the story behind? The Oh my God.
34:36
Starting on the podcast. So Zoe works at a Med spa.
34:40
Yeah. And I, I was thinking when I got
34:44
sober, I never shut the fuck up about it.
34:45
It's like if anything ever happens to me, everyone will
34:49
know for the rest of time. I like, love to talk about
34:51
trauma and I'm, you know, an addict, so I love to talk about
34:55
myself, but I couldn't stop talking about sobriety.
34:58
And I'm like everyday I'm like learning new shit.
34:59
And I'm like, oh, This is why I'm like this, like your mom,
35:02
like to my mom, I'm like, your mom's fucked up.
35:03
That's why I'm fucked up. And so it was also interesting
35:06
to me. And then I was like, oh, OK, I
35:08
don't have a life right now. I don't have a job, I don't have
35:10
anything. So I'm going to go back to
35:12
school for mental health and addiction.
35:13
Did that for a year, for a year, maybe two years, and I was like,
35:18
I hate school. I love to be there and I love to
35:21
learn, but like I literally will never write an essay.
35:23
She's. She can't do the work I.
35:25
Can't. She can't do the work.
35:26
She. Can't do the work.
35:27
I'm doing it right now and it's hard for me.
35:29
You're in school, Yeah. For social.
35:31
Work. Oh, you are OK.
35:32
It's and I It's hard. Yeah.
35:34
Yeah, it is hard. I like to work.
35:35
I'm a working guy. Yeah, I know.
35:37
I'm like, can I just be in the field?
35:38
Like just teach me that I. Can't imagine doing a paper.
35:42
I don't want to do that. And I never have.
35:43
I never will. But I, I was like, OK, I love
35:47
this. Like I do love being in this,
35:49
talking to these people about all this shit.
35:52
It's so relatable. But I don't know, you know, And
35:56
then I started talking to, I started having this idea.
35:59
I'm like, I love podcasts. I love talking about this shit.
36:02
What if I, what if I started one?
36:04
I messaged Arie Anne, who we actually went to Boston
36:07
Conservatory together. We went to school together and
36:09
she started her own roduction company and it was at the same
36:13
time I was thinking about podcasting and it was like
36:17
kismet. Like I saw her OST and I was
36:18
like interesting. We started talking and I was
36:21
like, I gotta get a buddy, I need a buddy.
36:24
And then Zoe and I, I walked into the Med spa that she was
36:29
working at. Yeah.
36:30
And I told the aesthetician that I was sober and I was like
36:34
sleeping with a married guy. And then so she broke HIPAA, of
36:37
course, and told Zoe told. Me, and at the time I was
36:40
obviously sober and sleeping with a married guy.
36:42
And I was like, Oh my God, we have so much in common.
36:44
Yeah. And.
36:45
So I think I randomly said like, oh, I'm sober too, yeah or
36:49
something like. That, Yeah.
36:50
And I was like, why? What's wrong with you?
36:52
What did you do? Like, do you go to the hospital?
36:54
Like I was so excited. Now I'm like, maybe be a little
36:57
chiller about people. Like.
36:58
Exposing their. I was so excited when you were
37:01
just wanting to talk so much about it.
37:02
Yeah, I was like, Oh my God, amazing.
37:04
I know it was so exciting. That was probably like, what, a
37:07
year before we started the podcast?
37:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Within that year you were still
37:14
a very much like a stay at home person.
37:16
I was an indoor person, yes. I was an indoor cat, scared of
37:19
leaving, but like we would hang out a little bit throughout that
37:23
year. But then like after that, we did
37:26
get closer. I was bringing you out more,
37:29
experiencing you to the world. Yeah, that was hard, Yeah.
37:32
But it was good. I yeah.
37:33
But the second we met, I was like, OK, here's a new life.
37:36
I can go outside. I can like, because Zoe is out,
37:39
you're out. She's she parties.
37:40
She hangs out her friends. And I'm like, you have friends
37:43
that like, yeah. So.
37:45
And then one day we were at dinner and I was like, I have to
37:47
talk to you about something. Yeah.
37:49
And I think you were just. You thought I was gonna ask you
37:51
to do an episode? Yeah, I knew that she was
37:53
wanting to start a podcast and I thought that that was so cool.
37:57
And I thought that she was just gonna ask me to do like 1
38:00
episode. I didn't expect to do that.
38:02
You're stuck now. Yeah.
38:02
And I was like, oh, OK, it's. Funny, usually it's all the way
38:05
around, right? Yeah, She can ask me to join her
38:07
podcast. Hey, can you be on an episode?
38:08
Oh fuck you then. You doing it and I wonder how
38:12
you feel cuz doing it myself, I like tried it for a little while
38:15
and I'm like, I'm just sitting here in a room talking about
38:18
sobriety to myself. I know myself.
38:22
I mean, but the only way to know yourself better is to talk to
38:24
other people and see your life through them.
38:26
Yeah, yeah. And the whole point of sobriety
38:28
is community. So I'm like, why am I fucking
38:30
doing this alone? Yeah, that's why I do the
38:32
guests, but the only solo ones I do now, and I didn't used to do
38:35
them before, but I do them. I it's very practical for me.
38:39
Like here's how I get through a party sober.
38:42
Like fucking straight up, you take this and you apply it into
38:44
your life and it might work for you.
38:46
It works for me every time, right.
38:47
And so I, I try to walk people through very practical things
38:50
because I follow a guy Jefferson Fisher has a podcast on
38:53
communication. He's a lawyer and he just, he
38:56
has 15 minute videos about how to be a better communicator.
38:59
And I, I listen to it and I just like, it's so practical.
39:01
It's like you start thing one do this do and it's like you can
39:04
actually apply it into your life and it makes you a better
39:06
person, right. So I try to give that up, but I
39:08
I love like this is my favorite where just sitting down, no
39:11
script, no questions. I I've had a lot of
39:15
professionals in here and people in the field and, you know,
39:18
it's, it's great, but it's very, it's very scripted, very
39:22
professional. I think my favorite podcasts are
39:24
ones where it's just fucking people talking.
39:26
Yeah, for sure. This is an interesting
39:28
conversation, right? Because I love listening to
39:29
conversations, right? And I'm, I'm a very observant
39:32
person. Maybe that's why I like
39:33
podcasting. But we'll be out and I'll be
39:35
like, my, I always do this. I'm like to my wife, I'm like,
39:38
are you? Do you hear what that guy just
39:39
said? He's always.
39:40
Listening, she's like no and my wife's like you know what the
39:42
fuck no, like what? And it's like like, you know,
39:44
you can read body language, so you're like he's getting broken
39:46
up with or something. It's.
39:48
My favorite thing to do. Oh my God, I love to go go out
39:50
and just like watch people, but people tell me they're like,
39:52
you're like this, like staring at them.
39:55
Can you just like do an ear? And I'm like, I need to ask them
39:57
what's going on because you're. Looking for body language too,
39:59
right? It's important.
40:00
That's that's amazing. Yeah.
40:03
And then after that, after you asked me, is that where we were?
40:08
Yeah, yeah. Then we just started it up.
40:10
Yeah. We just we had to redo the first
40:13
episode a few times and then now I think we're like in a groove.
40:17
I think so too. We've got guests.
40:19
Coming on. I mean, you got the next like
40:20
month booked out, right? Which is always good.
40:22
I'm like on the fly. I wish I had more bookings, but
40:27
again, that'll probably come. Yeah, of course, for sure.
40:29
And like Arianne is such like a big help for us too.
40:32
Like we're so fortunate to have her help and everything.
40:36
Doing this on your own is wild. Yeah, insane.
40:40
Thanks. I feel better now.
40:41
Yeah. My God.
40:42
No, it's literally. Amazing.
40:43
You're doing amazing. One time I was sitting on the
40:45
floor with ChatGPT trying to figure out a camera thing and I
40:47
cried and fell asleep and woke up 4 hours later and I was like
40:51
my God okay we need help here I can't do this.
40:54
But I have a conversation that I kind of want to bring up.
40:59
You posted something on your Instagram a a few weeks ago
41:03
about dating, dating and being sober.
41:06
And your take I think was I guess someone had asked right?
41:09
Someone you were responding to a comment someone was like if I'm
41:13
sober should my partner get sober?
41:16
And you said absolutely not. And I actually want to know
41:19
what, like that is how you feel about that.
41:23
Like, because you are married. Yeah, right.
41:25
Is your partner. I don't know if you want to.
41:27
Yeah, No, no, she doesn't. She doesn't drink as like,
41:30
nearly as much as she did. Yeah, but she's able to turn it
41:33
off. I've seen it.
41:33
I, you know, she has maybe one drink a month now, if that, and
41:37
that was all her choice. So yeah, I'm happy you brought
41:39
this up because I think there's two very different things in my
41:43
mind. It's like there's one, one part
41:45
of it is like when I meet somebody, if I'm trying to
41:49
'cause this is my thing. If I'm trying to change somebody
41:52
to be sober, I have a problem with that.
41:55
Like that's my my thing where I'm like very uncomfortable.
41:57
So just to finish the point, when I go out to family things
42:03
and this happened in my early recovery, they would remove all
42:05
the alcohol for parties and I'm talking like 30 people are there
42:07
and no one was drinking. And it made me so uncomfortable.
42:10
I hated it right, because I don't like when I change other
42:14
people's like lives. Now I'm I'm happy.
42:18
Like a nuisance if they like when they.
42:20
Yeah, it's a nuisance, but it's also like, I shouldn't be the
42:23
guy. I respect it.
42:24
Don't get me wrong. I respect it.
42:25
It just makes me uncomfortable. It's like this elephant in the
42:27
room. Yeah, because no one's talking
42:28
about it. No one's drinking.
42:30
And I'm like, you guys would be normally drinking, right?
42:32
You wouldn't be getting blackout because my family's not like
42:34
that. But you would be drinking.
42:35
And I've, I'm changing it. I feel like a yeah, I feel like
42:38
a burden almost. Right.
42:39
Did you have any thought or would you feel comfortable and
42:45
maybe now is different, but like early sobriety to tell your
42:48
family like, hey, this function is coming up.
42:50
I'm not drinking, but you guys can drink.
42:53
I have. That's literally fine.
42:54
Yeah. OK.
42:54
And do they respond by taking all the alcohol away or how do
42:58
they? Respond I think, yeah, I think
43:00
so. It's, it's 2 two things because
43:02
I came in twice, right? So I've had three major
43:05
relapses, but when I came in at 23, it was probably a good idea,
43:09
to be honest, because I was 23, even though I had done all the
43:12
work. I lived in Minnesota for four
43:14
months. I was in a sober house.
43:15
Minnesota idea. I had to go in Minnesota.
43:18
Yeah, it was a great. It was a great treatment center.
43:20
It was cold as fuck, but. And so that it was probably a
43:26
good idea, even though I wasn't seeing my friends, Like I
43:29
literally, I didn't hang out with anyone for four or five
43:31
months of my drinking buddies because I was told not to.
43:34
And I was like, I like this. I like myself now I'm going to
43:37
listen. It's starting to feel good.
43:38
That's the only reason I stayed sober is because I listened to
43:40
other people. Obviously.
43:42
And so they it wasn't as obvious, I would say, but there
43:45
was a few times when I came back this this time again after
43:50
relapsing and where it was like, I went to one party and it was
43:53
just like, no one was drinking. And I didn't know like maybe 30
43:56
minutes and I was like, it's like a summer day and yeah,
44:00
nobody's drinking. I'm like, oh fuck, this is for
44:01
me is. Yeah, you're existing.
44:04
About me, yeah. And although I appreciate it, I
44:06
do. I really do appreciate it.
44:07
I would rather people just be themselves, like do their own
44:11
thing Right now. I think what I what I respect
44:14
the hell out of is somebody saying I can't be with someone
44:17
that drinks right. I respect the hell out of that.
44:19
Like you know yourself. It's just for me, it's like, I
44:21
don't want to change anybody. That's my thing.
44:23
Yeah, I, I really did wonder because I, I don't, I don't feel
44:30
like a burden. I am like very aware that I was
44:33
super sick and I was not well. And so like, I have to do this
44:37
and I like that everyone around me knows I'm sober.
44:40
It's like what I lead with, but I'm really out there, like I'm
44:44
an extrovert. I have no shame about any of it.
44:47
And not to say you have shame, but I am wondering that, like,
44:51
not wanting to be the elephant in the room or like, you know,
44:55
I'm like, well, that feels to me like, like, I don't want you to
45:00
feel like that. Like if everyone around you
45:02
doesn't want to drink, it's like, fucking good, you know?
45:04
And it's not like you asked them to not drink.
45:06
They wanted to do that because they love you, you know, like I
45:10
think I get feeling like that. My family didn't drink around me
45:17
when they picked me up from rehab.
45:18
We went out for dinner that night and they didn't drink.
45:20
The next time I saw them, everyone was drinking.
45:22
And it's been like that ever since.
45:25
Which it only annoyed me because they didn't bring it up when I
45:31
went out with my friends. Like the first time I went out
45:34
with them after rehab like a month later they asked me like
45:37
do you want me to drink? And I was like, I don't care,
45:39
but thank you for. Asking.
45:40
That's the important. Part, that's the important part.
45:41
My family never asked after that one night.
45:44
They didn't ask. But early sobriety, I would say
45:46
like a year in, every time I was around my friends, they would be
45:50
like, are you OK with me drinking?
45:52
What's the vibe like? Are you OK with this?
45:54
Are you feeling good? What's happening?
45:57
And my friends were always supportive like that and I never
45:59
told them like no don't drink but just checking in on me and
46:03
asking if it's OK was all I needed.
46:07
I didn't want them to not drink but.
46:09
And that feels like safety, like it feels like safety to me,
46:12
where I'm wondering if that feels like danger to you.
46:16
Because I'm wondering if it's also like this difference
46:18
between like binary speaking like men and women where like
46:21
I'm good to be coddled. Like I, you know, I like when
46:25
people know I like if everyone around me, it makes me feel
46:28
safe. So I, I wonder if it's this
46:32
thing of like, yeah, like I don't, I don't wanna, I can't do
46:35
something. I'm a man.
46:36
I should be able to do something.
46:37
I can't do it. But I don't want anyone to
46:38
fucking talk about it. I don't want it to be a thing
46:41
where for me, I'm like, this is a thing and we're all gonna talk
46:43
about my sobriety, you know, because it is really nice when
46:48
everyone around you knows what's going on.
46:50
And then, and then I'm like, yeah, you can drink, It's fine.
46:53
Because you know me and we've had this conversation.
46:54
Yeah, you know. Yeah, they could.
46:56
The important part is if any family is listening, that
46:59
they're wondering how to navigate this, especially
47:00
through the holidays. Yes.
47:02
It's like, just ask them how they're doing, ask them if it's
47:04
OK to drink. I think just acknowledging it is
47:08
everything, you know? I would have been like way more
47:14
safe if my family acknowledged it, you know?
47:16
Mind you, when someone in the family has an addiction, there's
47:19
usually addiction in the rest of the family someone, right?
47:23
So people don't necessarily know how to navigate it.
47:26
They don't want to talk about it.
47:27
They want to depression on the road.
47:28
Like I went to rehab. She must be OK then.
47:31
Now let's move on. Well, I'm also a person like my
47:33
parents would be like, we had to walk on egg shells.
47:35
Egg shells around you. That's what I was going to say.
47:37
Yeah. So I'm going.
47:38
To say you just put them, drag them through the mug and now
47:40
you're showing up and they're not drinking and you're like
47:42
upset about it and. They're like.
47:44
No one wants to go back to rehab, right?
47:45
Exactly. You're welcome, motherfucker.
47:47
What do? You want us to do and now you're
47:48
mad at me for not fuck you? But that's like typical addict,
47:53
right? Yeah.
47:53
One of the things anyways, yeah, everyone care about me, but
47:56
don't care about me, yeah. But dating never know what?
47:59
We want we got some like backlash online about this
48:02
because, yeah. I saw that.
48:03
Yeah, yeah, cuz I said we were talking about dating and if
48:06
someone. Should my partner be sober?
48:09
Yeah. And so we were, I think a lot of
48:11
people took the TikTok out of perspective, right?
48:14
Cuz we were talking in a scenario where if I'm dating
48:18
someone else and I'm an addict and then I decide to get sober.
48:23
I need to get sober. I need to get sober.
48:25
And then if he continues to drink, that's different.
48:28
Yeah, yeah. It took, it was taken out of
48:30
context a little bit, but and then in that scenario, I'm like,
48:34
yeah, he should see that. I did just so much work to stop
48:37
drinking. He should be able to be like,
48:39
OK, I'm not going to drink or I'm going to have like 1 drink
48:42
every few months to support her, you know?
48:44
Or to ask. Or to ask, at the very least.
48:46
We. Were I was in rehab and there
48:49
was this sweet Angel girl. I just, you know, those people
48:52
who are just apple pies and you're like, how did you get so
48:55
nice? Such an addict.
48:57
But she, her husband was a heavy drinker and heavy drinker.
49:01
I don't know, definitely had a six pack every night after work.
49:05
Like they live in the country and she's not drinking, but
49:08
that's hard for her because she's relapsing because he's
49:10
drinking all the time and it's in the house.
49:11
And our counselor said to her, like, and this is harsh and
49:15
like, this is the stuff that people don't like, but it's
49:17
like, if he loves you, he'll stop.
49:20
Like he has to make a choice. He has to choose alcohol or you.
49:24
And if he can't choose you, then he has a problem with alcohol.
49:28
And that is true. And I think that that might be
49:31
where the backlash comes from because we say this, that like
49:35
take asking someone to like, think about someone else and
49:38
stop drinking feels like I'm going to take your fucking guns
49:41
and you're the president of the NRA, you know, but it's not,
49:45
it's not really like that. And I think that's it's also
49:49
because that guy who drinks like only 6 beers a night is probably
49:53
like, I'm not a fucking alcoholic but I'm like, if you
49:56
can't stop drinking your 6 beers at night for your wife's fucking
50:00
sake, you're an addict. You know, yeah.
50:03
Yeah, the, the no, it's true. I the the, the difference, the
50:08
determining factor really is when someone else is struggling,
50:11
right? I think, yeah, I think if if I'm
50:14
trying to get sober and my partner is not.
50:19
Supporting me it's. Just about.
50:20
Supporting. You're not supporting someone
50:22
else if you're blatantly doing something that they can't do in
50:25
front of their fucking face. I don't know, I think alcohol is
50:28
like it's, it's almost like a human right for some people.
50:33
Yeah, right. It does feel like this is what I
50:35
I can do. I can handle it.
50:37
I'm going to do it. I like it.
50:39
And yeah, yeah, I think it hurts people when you try to take it
50:41
away. Yeah, that, that's so that leads
50:44
me into like my next thing that I want to bring up too is like I
50:49
get really fired up when I see, I don't know if you guys have
50:53
ever, have you ever seen the guy that films people in Arizona?
50:57
He he does it. There's a guy here too that does
50:59
it like homeless people, addicts, and he films like
51:01
fentanyl and it, it comes from the right place.
51:03
Like if you actually watch the videos, like the guy is, he
51:06
helps. I, I, I haven't followed him at
51:08
all, but I remember I was in Vancouver.
51:10
I was at a, a sobriety conference this year and I, I
51:13
found his account in my hotel room by myself and it just, I
51:16
started getting so emotional, but it was like awesome because
51:19
I, I was like, Oh my God, like it it, for one, it made me, it
51:22
made me think about like how bad it can get and it reminded me of
51:26
how bad it can get. But also I was like, it was
51:27
just, it was very powerful. Anyways, he posted a video
51:30
recently about how, and he's an addict himself, 15 years sober
51:33
or something, how addiction is not a disease and it's a choice.
51:37
And I'm watching this guy and he starts talking and I'm like 100%
51:41
this guy be like, it is a disease, right?
51:43
Because he's filming these people fucking choosing every
51:46
day to be homeless and overdose and come on.
51:48
Are you fucking kidding me, man? Like it's physically addictive,
51:51
yes, fentanyl, but there's also like there's people that just
51:54
get ANYWAYS. So he gets on this whole thing.
51:56
And I had to, I had to literally like stop my hand from
51:59
commenting on it because like, you know, it never goes
52:02
anywhere. So I took a day, I went back and
52:04
I just shared my experience, right?
52:05
Of if, if it was a choice, then if somebody like me had relapsed
52:10
after eight years, they would just be like, like I said at the
52:12
beginning, that was close. I better slow down.
52:16
I couldn't. I had.
52:17
I could not. Stop.
52:18
So here's my thing and then I want to hear your thing is I
52:22
think it's a choice in the beginning, right?
52:24
To start. Everybody chooses to start to
52:27
some degree. I think a lot of us are
52:28
predisposed with it, right? But we don't know until we
52:31
start. And then once you're in it, I
52:33
think the choice just goes out the window, right?
52:35
Even if you get some time between you and no recovery
52:38
support, I think the choice goes out the window and you need
52:41
intervention or rehab, whatever it looks like.
52:43
What do you guys think? I think I agree with that.
52:45
I think even like there's people right now who are like drinking
52:50
and it's normal until one day it's not a normal drinker like
52:54
that choice be it's a choice until it's not a choice anymore,
52:59
until it turns into a disease. And that can happen at any
53:01
moment in your life. It happened for me early on.
53:04
It happened for you later on as well, like a little bit later
53:08
than me. But yeah, it's a choice until
53:10
it's not a choice anymore. And then there's so many times
53:13
that, yeah, I wanted to stop, but I couldn't.
53:16
My body physically couldn't not drink like it needed it.
53:22
Yeah, well, I didn't want to hold a knife in front of myself,
53:25
in front of my parents. I didn't want to stand on the
53:27
balcony on 46 floors above, you know, like that wasn't what I
53:32
wanted. That was a happened because I
53:37
had this disease of alcoholism, you know?
53:39
And to to the point like that should have been enough for
53:41
anyone to stop, right? And it's like.
53:44
It's not. Yeah, I mean, sometimes your
53:46
first blackout in high school is enough for you to stop or
53:49
college and be like, Oh my God, I got way too drunk on that and
53:51
I never drank like that again. I'm like, damn girl, how'd you
53:54
do? That yeah, but that sounds so
53:56
much fun for me. Let's keep the blackouts going.
53:58
Yeah, well, that's the thing, right?
53:59
It's not fun. Like when we're in addiction,
54:02
it's not fun. And if you see us like laughing,
54:04
it's because we're fucked. Like there's no, like, there's
54:08
no, I don't want to wake up in the morning and the first thing
54:11
I do is like, yeah, put my hand under the pillow and get the
54:14
wine from the night before. I think everyone in life goes
54:19
through some sort of hard time and they can compare that like,
54:23
oh, I was fired and I didn't have a lot of money.
54:25
And then I, you know, worked really hard and I did this and
54:28
now I'm, I'm great and I have a wife and blah, blah, blah.
54:30
And they compare that struggle to addiction and it's just not
54:35
the same at all. Like, and I think the comparison
54:38
between like addiction and diabetes or addiction and cancer
54:41
is. Also really hard to.
54:43
You know, but it is its own thing.
54:45
And I think using the word choice makes it so easy for all
54:51
of us to other everyone that's on the street struggling and not
54:55
getting better. Like I don't think I'm better
54:57
than anybody. I know exactly what would have
54:59
happened to me, first of all, especially if I didn't have my
55:01
dad and the money that he has. Privilege.
55:04
Do you think it's easier to say do?
55:06
You think it's easier to say it's a choice like?
55:09
Do you think that's like an easier way like?
55:10
A couple, like a couple for people.
55:12
Yeah, yeah. I just, I, I like, I was
55:15
watching the video and I don't know what he was trying to get
55:16
out of it because like you're filming these people every day
55:18
and it's like, so you're telling me that they're choosing to not
55:21
get sober and you just magically chose to get you're not an
55:24
addict. Dude, I guess maybe like he, he
55:27
does think he's better than everyone else and that's like
55:30
his way of being like I'm better than everyone else.
55:32
I'm choosing to not do that, but you guys are choosing to live
55:36
like this. Yeah, like I don't.
55:38
Know I don't. Know I'm just trying to figure
55:39
out what that is. Right.
55:40
What's the motive? I guess.
55:41
You do. You do make a choice to stop
55:45
drinking or stop using. You have like a weird moment of
55:48
clarity and you're like, I got to call rehab.
55:51
That's your choice. Maybe if you have the ability to
55:54
do so. I did.
55:55
I wasn't going to go to a government funded rehab.
55:58
Like I was going to go somewhere.
55:59
I was going to pay and have my own bed.
56:01
So like, I'm not even just like able to get sober in any way.
56:05
You know, that's a really privileged thing to say, but it
56:08
is fucking. True, yeah.
56:09
And but, and like the fact that I called rehab and I went the
56:14
next day is such a privileged thing too.
56:16
Like a lot of people have to wait months and months and then
56:20
they don't want to go at that point.
56:21
Yeah, and I think the main thing too, when we have these
56:24
discussions about people that are struggling living on the
56:26
street, it's like, OK, get sober and then what?
56:33
Live on the street, be fucking cold, have nothing.
56:37
People that are so unbelievably under Zoe was in the hospital
56:40
all the time and treated like shit, you know, when she was
56:43
going through her addiction. Like people are not being
56:45
served. They're all underserved.
56:47
Nobody cares. They're not going to the
56:48
hospital. You can't just get sober and
56:50
then be like, OK, now I'm going to live on the street sober.
56:54
Yeah, fucking right. It's cold.
56:56
It's dangerous, No? Part of the deal is building a
56:59
new life, right? Yeah.
57:00
To that you don't have to drink in.
57:01
You know, everyone says that, but it's true.
57:03
It's like I have to build a life that I don't need to drink in.
57:05
Right. Yeah, but build a life you have
57:07
to be able to push off of. Something right.
57:09
So I mean like, so that's where privilege comes in.
57:10
Yeah, exactly. It's it's tough for sure.
57:13
So in that in that case, if it is a choice and I'm on the
57:17
street, even if it is a fucking choice, that's what I'm choosing
57:19
then because I don't want to be out here.
57:22
This sucks so, but it's not a choice.
57:25
Yeah, it's hard. It is hard.
57:27
And I think we wake up in the morning and you're like, I'm not
57:30
going to drink, I'm not going to drink.
57:31
And then you immediately drink. I think your brain and your body
57:36
just don't compute at that point.
57:39
Yeah, there are times where I'd sit on my couch at night and I
57:43
wouldn't have any alcohol in the house.
57:45
And I'd be like, I don't really want to drink right now.
57:48
And then something in my brain would be like, but you have to,
57:52
you have to get out of all. Yeah.
57:54
And then I would like, you're going to want it later.
57:56
You're not going to want to get through the night without it.
57:58
And I think that's the difference between like what we
58:00
call normies, right? Where it's like that thought
58:02
process doesn't really come in. Well, no, I could go for a walk.
58:05
I'd go to the gym. I could, you know, I need to
58:06
stop this. And then they they stop or
58:08
moderate, right? And that's why it is so hard for
58:10
the normies to understand us because we're crazy people and
58:15
they would never do the things that we do.
58:18
No, they. Don't have it right.
58:20
We for some reason, we can have the same experiences and I'm a
58:23
junkie under a bridge and you're have a family and a baby and you
58:27
love your life like, but we went through the same trauma or we
58:30
drank the same or you drank first, you know, but some of us
58:34
have it, some of us don't. I.
58:35
Mean, yeah, to your point, like even when you were talking about
58:37
the dog thing and your your sister not finding too like I
58:40
literally I was just like, yeah, yeah, I probably would have done
58:43
that. You know, it's and I'm thinking
58:44
about it. Wait, that kind of sounds crazy.
58:46
It's crazy, but it's true. Like I can I can totally relate
58:48
to that. Yeah.
58:51
We got to do this again because we're running out of time, but I
58:54
had a great time today, I guess. I know there's so much more to.
58:59
Talk, I know, and there's a lot that I want to get into, but it
59:01
it'll. Yeah, we'll come back.
59:03
Yeah, we'll come back. You'll come.
59:04
You'll come. We'll.
59:05
See us and we'll continue or whatever.
59:06
Yeah. And I'm coming to see you guys.
59:08
Yeah, I guess. Well, typically how I end this
59:12
is if you could say something to your addicted self today.
59:17
She wouldn't listen to anything. I know, I mean like.
59:21
Just hello, are you OK? Are you a lot?
59:24
Get off. The balcony, Zoe.
59:27
Put some poles on. Why you make it up there?
59:30
Put that. Bottle down you dumb bitch.
59:34
If, if, if that one doesn't, Maybe if you don't like that
59:37
one, yeah. I mean, the best advice you
59:39
heard in early recovery, one of the two best.
59:43
Advice. Oh man.
59:45
Oh God, I have no thoughts. Well.
59:50
How do you stay sober today? How about that?
59:52
Well, well, I have a bunch of answers now, OK.
59:55
I feel like the best advice I got in recovery is either a
1:00:01
don't pick up for some reason. That one that we had this guy
1:00:05
from CA come in, he was gigantic Italian man.
1:00:09
And he just used to be like, don't pick up, don't pick up
1:00:11
today. And I'm like, OK, yeah, like I
1:00:13
know that's so simple, but I'm like, yeah, right.
1:00:16
If I just don't open the wine rack door, just don't go right.
1:00:21
And like, it's a little thing. And then also fucking empathy.
1:00:25
First, I try really hard, like, like I have moral anger with men
1:00:30
and that leads to a lot of my drinking behaviors and drinking.
1:00:35
And so I try to do like, what is their life like?
1:00:38
What are they feeling today? Why would they have said that or
1:00:41
felt the need to have acted in that way?
1:00:43
What happened to them as a kid? And then I try to just move on
1:00:46
and that helps me. Yeah, that's a beautiful way to
1:00:48
do it. For sure.
1:00:49
To deal with difficult people and narcissists, yeah.
1:00:51
And then and then and. That's why it started, yeah.
1:00:56
We like you, don't worry. For now.
1:01:00
I think the thing that I first started doing, like when I got
1:01:05
out of rehab, I think I didn't like pay attention to too much.
1:01:09
But I know for the one thing I know I was doing from when I
1:01:14
first got out of rehab till now, it's just like being honest with
1:01:18
everybody and being honest with yourself and like talking about
1:01:22
how you're actually feeling and telling people what you need and
1:01:25
not lying about anything. I think the Lion game is so
1:01:30
hard, like we talked about in the early on in this episode.
1:01:33
But I think honesty will get you sober and will keep you sober as
1:01:38
well. Yeah, I think that's that's
1:01:42
something I grasped on too early on.
1:01:44
And I don't think I let that one go.
1:01:45
Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.
1:01:47
I think our core, like our core defect of character, I know some
1:01:51
people don't like that word, but it's true.
1:01:52
Like our core defect is like dishonesty at it's very core is
1:01:58
like, yeah, for some reason, whether it's people pleasing or
1:02:01
I don't like what you're gonna think about me or I'm not gonna
1:02:03
get my way or like you said, it's gonna be, you know, easier
1:02:05
to apologize later or whatever. I just need to lie.
1:02:07
And then, so I was taught early on too, is like when you do make
1:02:10
those little white lies, 'cause you're going to talk about me.
1:02:13
I, I do about stupid shit, right?
1:02:16
Go back and say, hey, you know, I just gotta, even if it's
1:02:21
stupid, right? My therapist just tell me this
1:02:23
all the time. I don't know if you know
1:02:25
Christine. Do you know Christine?
1:02:26
Anyways, I don't. Know she's anyways.
1:02:28
Great, great woman. Yeah.
1:02:29
She would say just go back. Hey, you know, I made a little
1:02:32
white lie there and just kind of laugh about it.
1:02:33
Yeah. And build that up over time and
1:02:35
then you won't lie anymore. I do that with music.
1:02:37
One of the big things on dates when guys are like, what kind of
1:02:40
music do you listen to? And I'm like, I fucking hate
1:02:41
this question because I like Sabrina Carpenter and Top 40.
1:02:44
That's what I want to listen to. So I like try to make something
1:02:46
up and then I'm like, it's not true.
1:02:48
I hate everything. I only like Sabine Carpenter.
1:02:50
I hate this question. We're.
1:02:51
Not big music people. No to my younger self or to my
1:02:54
addicted self though. And I think that I this is
1:02:57
actually for all people that are currently an addiction or
1:03:00
whatever, but to my young, my addicted self, I think I would
1:03:05
literally just say like I see you and I love you and this
1:03:10
fucking sucks so bad. But it's all valid.
1:03:13
Like everything you're feeling is real and you're in there and
1:03:19
I don't know whether that's helpful or not, but like.
1:03:22
Yeah, just telling like people who are struggling that like
1:03:25
there's love for you and like we love you no matter what.
1:03:30
And you're, like, helpful. Yeah.
1:03:32
And you're a person. Like you're worth it.
1:03:33
Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:35
You're worth it, you're loved. All this bullshit you've done to
1:03:38
yourself and you've done, it's like it's not you in there.
1:03:41
You're still in there. And you can, we can find you,
1:03:44
you know, And you just have to like believe that that's a real
1:03:47
piece of you and hold on. Yeah.
1:03:49
That's a good point, I think. Yeah, well said.
1:03:54
What would you say to your addicted self?
1:03:56
Yeah, I. Was gonna have a point on that,
1:03:57
what you said, but then I was thinking about how to close the
1:03:59
podcast and. Then sorry, very long winded
1:04:02
over here. No, no, I'm looking.
1:04:03
At another thing, we're good, we're good for time, but it's
1:04:05
just like, yeah, I had this profound thing anyways, I do
1:04:08
that a lot. What would I say?
1:04:10
What was What was the thing that you were thinking forgot?
1:04:12
Now. Sorry it goes.
1:04:14
It leaves our heads a lot too. We'll.
1:04:15
Text me, maybe it'll come back. Yeah, I'll make a social media
1:04:19
reel about it like an idiot. I think I would they yeah, tell
1:04:24
the truth, definitely. But the, the biggest thing I
1:04:27
learned, you know, through my relapse is secrets, man,
1:04:32
Secrets, secrets, secrets. They keep you sick.
1:04:34
And whatever you're going through, like you have to have
1:04:38
to find somebody on this fucking earth, human, not just spiritual
1:04:42
'cause that's important for me too.
1:04:43
But there has to be someone that knows everything in your brain,
1:04:46
whether it's a therapist or no matter how crazy it sounds, how
1:04:50
stupid, how much you'll think you'll get judged.
1:04:52
Because that's what took me out. Like I sell it to people with
1:04:55
long term recovery all the time. Like don't have any secrets, no
1:04:58
matter how insignificant, you gotta get it out.
1:05:01
We tell all our secrets on the podcast.
1:05:02
Yeah, we really do. That's a good thing about it
1:05:04
too. It's like it's a good place to
1:05:05
kind of air it out. Yeah, yeah.
1:05:07
We've even like, we've never had really fights, but we've talked
1:05:11
about like hard things on the podcast.
1:05:12
Together. It's nice, which is really nice
1:05:14
because we feel so safe in that room.
1:05:16
Yeah. And yeah.
1:05:18
Everything is through a sober lens with us.
1:05:21
And I think that's like, very important.
1:05:22
Just in friendships in general, it's like, this is my best
1:05:25
friend. This is the person that's going
1:05:26
to walk through life with me, and I don't want to fight this
1:05:28
person. So let's actually talk about it.
1:05:30
Like we care about each other. Yeah, we're good to go.
1:05:33
Yeah, it's easier to to like, have a sober friendship.
1:05:38
Well also because you know that everything in my life effects my
1:05:40
sobriety and vice versa, so it's like I'm not just telling.
1:05:43
Me, this is a friend. It's like, yeah, It's like, this
1:05:45
is a sober conversation. Yeah.
1:05:47
It's very, I can really. I think everybody that's in
1:05:50
sobriety, like it's some of a former and other is gonna affect
1:05:52
your sobriety. Yeah, it's true.
1:05:54
Like just not today, you know? Yeah, girl, I'm drunk.
1:05:57
Thank you so much, Zoe. Thank you so much, Heather.
1:06:00
I appreciate it. Thanks for coming down.
1:06:01
Thank you so much for having us, this was so fun.
1:06:03
We'll see you soon. Thanks for listening.
1:06:05
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1:06:17
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1:06:21
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