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A Masterclass in Self-Awareness Adena Bank Lees, LCSW: from the archives · The Trauma Therapist

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Or today we even another episode from the Art Gives with one of my incredible
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guests. Enjoy or Welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is
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Guy mckperson. My mission is to help trauma therapists be their incredible selves,
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to be human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a
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big believer in who we are is more important than what we know, and
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this requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention.
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Can learn more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project
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dot com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started,
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right guys. Welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy
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mckperson and very excited to introduce my guest today, Adina bank Lee's Adina welcome.
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Thank you so much, guys, great to be with you. Awesome
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all right. So, Dina is a licensed clinical social worker. She's an
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internationally recognized speaker, author, trainer, and consultant providing a fresh and important
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look at addiction, addiction treatment, pardon me, traumatic stress, and recovery.
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She's provided more than one thousand workshops for professionals around the world. On
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topics related to childhood abuse, PTSD, eating in substance use disorders, other
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addictions, and related mental health issues. Her specialty is childhood sexual abuse,
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in particular covert emotional incest. All right, Adina, obviously, just a
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bit about you, but again, thank you so much for taking the time
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to do this. Yeah, where are you calling from? Tucson, Arizona?
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All right, so not too far from California, not too far and
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absolutely beautiful. The sun is shining and it's going to be seven degrees today
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on January January twelfth. You cannot complain about I can't complain about that.
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Where are you from? Originally? I'm from Long Island, New York.
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Okay, I'm from New York as well. Where and I well, I'm
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from Queen's originally and actually used to live in on Long Island. I had
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cousins there, so I know it well. And I lived in Queens for
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a year all right, Yeah, bought a boom exactly. Well. Look,
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you know, as you know, we had kind of chatted a little
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bit before we started recording. My goal here really is to give you the
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opportunity to talk about your passion, your specialty. Let's start out Adina with
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a quote, a sentence something to set the stage for our listeners. What
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do you what do you have for us? Okay, well, I actually
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have two and I can't I can't do one without the other. So the
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first quote for me, and this is not a religious thing, so I
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want to just set that disclaimer there. There is a God and I'm not
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it. And the other quote has come from love not fear. So those
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two guide my work and my personal life actually so much because when I first
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got into the field, I really thought that I could fix people, and
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I thought I had all the answers for them. And as we'll talk a
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little bit later, probably that is because that was the setup of the role
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that I had in my family system. And so now that I've been in
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the field and what I've learned through some of my mistakes that i'll share with
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you, also, I know that there is a bigger force out there,
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whatever you want to call it, and that I don't have everybody's answers,
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and that they actually have them inside of them, and my job is to
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facilitate that through a really healthy therapeutic alliance and whatever skills I have that might
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fit for them. There's a god, and who what's the attribution there is
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that something? Is that you? Who's who said that? Uh? That
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is actually a twelve step saying that goes around and I don't know who the
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author of that is. I heard that many years ago. Okay. And
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the and the second one come from love not fear. Come from love not
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fear. That's based really in the course of miracles. Okay. And one
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of my favorite quotes, which is way too long to read here, is
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by Mary Ann Williamson, and it's her quote on fear and about how our
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fear is not about how inadequate we are, it's really about how incredibly wonderful
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we are. Yeah, I love that. I love that quote as well.
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So you know, you started talking about, well, let's let's hone
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in on one of these and kind of dive in. What would you choose
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for the therapist therapist part? I would say there is a godden on that
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it because I think for that role that is just so primary for me to
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have the appropriate boundaries that I need to stay as objective as possible to be
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able to allow the client to do the work they need to do rather than
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me interfering. And I think disrespecting their process by making decisions for them,
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by thinking I know what they need, by telling them I know what they
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need, it just doesn't work. And I've you know, I just for
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any new people, I just want to say, you know, it's been
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over twenty five years I'm doing this, and it continues to be a challenge
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for me. It's a lot better and easier than it used to be because
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I have the habit of it now. And I also want to share with
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you that before every session and during session, I am breathing slowly and deeply,
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and I am saying to myself, you know, please allow me to
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be a channel here and to be really in tune with my client, to
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not get into my own ego, because as soon as I do that,
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I lose the connection with my client, and that therapeutic alliance is cut,
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and they don't have me present with them the way I believe they need to
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have me present in order to do the work that they need to do to
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do their healing. I don't know if that makes sense, guy, it
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does, and you're you're talking about so many really inspiring and rich things here,
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this idea of fixing. I mean, man, come on, we've
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all been there. I've certainly been there and continue to be pulled in that
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direction. But what you said, Adina about you know, before and during
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sessions having that self awareness that is so huge, and I want to get
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into that as we kind of talk about as we get into this interview here,
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because that is gold, I think for our listeners, you know,
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having the wherewithal the self awareness. And I'm really curious about how you got
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to that point. But let's move on here because I'm sure we'll get into
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it. How did you get into this field? Tell us that story when
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I well, I grew up in a family and I joke a lot that
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I grew up with Sigmund Freud as my father. My father was a psychologist
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and he was trained back in the fifties, and so he was very Freudy
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and trained, and we heard a lot about that in my home, and
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I will do When I was fourteen, at ninth grade, I made the
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decision that I was going to be a psychotherapist. And I thought I'd be
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a psychologist because that was the role model that I had. I had no
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idea that there was social workers in clinical social workers at that time, and
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I made the decision that I knew I needed to help people, that that
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was a really main purpose for me on the planet, and that by helping
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other people, I was going to help to heal the planet. What I
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didn't realize, guy, was that getting into this field was going to help
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to heal me. And that's another message that I have for new people and
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are just a reminder for people who've been around. So you grow up with
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a father who kind of reminded you of Sigmund Freud. How did this idea
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that you wanted to help people? Where did that come from? It was
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natural in me. I think it came with my DNA at my birth.
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Maybe it was before my birth. I was always doing that. I was
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always listening. I was always incredibly sensitive to other people's feelings and it was
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just part of who I was, and I believe it is a part of
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who I am. So it wasn't like somebody had to talk me into it
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or it's just who I am. And uh, yeah, it's just who
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I am. I mean, I've said that three times, but I don't
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know. I don't really know what else to say. A perfect spiritual purpose,
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and I came with the I came with those software right right, beautiful,
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yea son, How did that that channel into addiction and trauma? Where
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did that get carved? So that's a great question. So you know the
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decision in ninth grade. I actually was diagnosed with anorexi and rervosa in ninth
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grade and went to my first therapist. And I want to say my dad
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and mom were instrumental in continuing to develop this. And I'll get to your
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I'll get to your question. I'm giving you the story. My dad said,
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I want you to go to somebody who you can relate to. So
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I'm going to give you a list and talk to me about a male or
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a female age, et cetera. And I picked a woman who was twenty
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nine, and I went to see her and she had her private practice,
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you know, a separate office at by her home. And I related to
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her so much and I really attached to her, and I said, that's
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who I want to be. I want to be Andrea's that's my role model.
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And when I went to college and studied psychology, and then I worked
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for a couple of years as a case manager. When the de institutionalization was
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happening on Long Island, there were two or three major psychiatric hospitals that people
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had lived in for years, and they were sending people out into the community
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now in group homes, etc. And so I got the job and did
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that for three years as I went to graduate school at a Delphi University on
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Long Island for social work, and I really thought I was going to be
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a marriage and family therapist. I wanted to work with families, especially with
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kids and adolescence because I had had such a turbulent adolescence. I really thought,
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like, you know, I identify with them, and I'm close enough
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in their age in my late twenties, and I want to be Andrea.
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So I found out about when I graduated, or a little bit before I
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graduated, I found out about an internship at a place called the Karen Foundation
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c A r O. N. And it's in Pennsylvania, and they have
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it's a drug and alcohol treatment center that has a five day inpatient residential program
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for adult children of alcoholics and people who've been traumatized as children. And they
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use experiential methods. And I have to tell you that I was extremely bored
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by the way that I was taught to do therapy in graduate school in my
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internship and I said, if this is therapy, I don't want to do
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it. I'm going to do something else. And then I went to Karen
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and I fell in love and I said, this is this is the way
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that I am meant to do therapy, which was psychodrama. And I'm a
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psycho certified psychodramatist and been doing it since nineteen eighty nine. I knew again
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that that was one of the modalities and the major one that was going to
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really fit for me, that I'd have passion about and I would really be
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able to help people with. And the drug and alcohol and trauma came in
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because I was working with people who were either already in recovery or we did
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intervention on them at Karen at the five day program, and I said,
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okay, so I think my focus is shifting here because it feels right to
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work with this population. And then I found out about this treatment center in
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Tucson, Arizona, that was a premier treatment center for addiction in trauma at
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that time in nineteen ninety eight ninety and I was lucky enough to get flown
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out for an interview and get hired, and I learned most of what I
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know to really set me up to be the kind of therapist that I am
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today. I learned at two and a two years or so at that treatment
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center, and so I get CRA Tucson, and I grew up there.
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What I say is I grew up there and just one very quick story.
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In graduate school, in the Diagnosis and Assessment class, we were looking at
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the DSM three at that time, and the instructor said, you will never
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see this diagnosis because it's so rare, but we have to talk a little
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bit about it. It's called multiple personality disorder, and it was fascinating to
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me. I mean, I was always fascinated about how the brain worked.
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When I was in undergraduate school, physiological psychology was my most favorite class.
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And if I could go back to school now, I would go back for
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that neuropsychology. That's an aside, let's bring you back here. So he
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said, you know, you'll never see this somebody with this diagnosis. So
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one of my first groups at CRA Tucson, twenty eight years old, and
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I'm running this group and somebody switches front of me and gets very angry and
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almost violent and blocks the door and I can't get to the door, and
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I think to myself, Okay, he told me that I would probably never
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see a client with this diagnosis, and here I am, what the heck
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of my do? And so you know it was okay, DNA, go
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on your instinct with whatever you have now, from whatever experience you have,
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and I you know the client was able to be calmed and sat and you
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know we were able to do what we did. And I don't remember the
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specifics. I just knew that I had a pull from not my head of
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what model am I going to use, but I had a pull from my
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gut about you know what feels like the right thing to do right now.
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And that's the other thing for new people is don't leave out your gut.
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For me, that has been so critical, and I have to tell you,
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a guy, that is the main piece that I zone in on with
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my trauma clients is helping them to get back in touch with their gut,
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get back in their body enough to trust that gut. And every time they
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do and make a decision, I really reinforce that and keep coming back to
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that about how your gut hasn't lied to you, your head lies and talk
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to you out of things, but your gut doesn't lie to you, and
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they could go on their own. You know, it's like my job is
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so that you don't need me anymore. I just love a dean of the
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way you each of your stories and what you're saying kind of in its entirety
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really kind of goes back to that your your gut. You know, when
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you talked about your early training and you're like, this is not for me
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on board, and then when you had that other experience, you were like,
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Bam, this just feels right. This is where I belong that uh
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listening right. Not everyone is going to I think be so lucky as to
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kind of find that maybe as quickly. But what you what I'm hearing you
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say here is you're listening to that. You know, you're honoring that,
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and I think for all of us, but especially for newer clinicians, that
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is such it's just gold. I love it. Yeah, thank you,
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And I have to say this is one of my pieces is that the only
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the reason I think that I did that. First of all, I think
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it is part of who I am, and the other is my own therapy
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and recovery has allowed me to live in my body and trust that gut,
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and I've have enough experience now that I have the faith that that works.
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Rather than in the beginning, I said, Okay, i'll believe what you're
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telling me, and I believe that you believe it. But I had to
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have the experience myself, both professionally and personally, to now have faith that
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that works, and I really want to pass on that learning to my clients.
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That's that's a great point. That's a great point. Let's how about
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an early mistake, an early clinical error. What you learned from that?
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Okay, so CR two Son working with a family and parents and adult clients.
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R two Son is an adult treatment center eighteen and over, and this
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person was probably male, probably late thirties, early forties, and family work
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in the trauma program, not in the addiction program. And I got caught
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in a power struggle with him. What I knew was my heart rate started
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to go up, and I started to be reactive because he was extremely provocative
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and he was angry and challenging me, and I usually know how a side
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step power struggles. I got caught and I said to him, well,
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of course this is happening with your parents, because look what you're doing and
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I didn't say it in a way where okay, so look at your part
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in this. It was well, look at what you're doing, like idiot.
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You know that was the That was the meta message, if you want
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to say, if you want to say that, And I knew as soon
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as it came out of my mouth. I went, oh, my goodness,
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I just really missed this up here. And I lost any credibility with
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him, unfortunately, and he made a complaint to my supervisor, and and
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so you know, I got clinical supervision around it, which I have.
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That's another push that I say, you're not in clinical supervision, you're not
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practicing ethically. Especially with this population there is way too much of a risk
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of countertransference and getting very messy. So yeah, so that was I knew
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it when it was coming out of my mouth, and I was not effective
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after that. My co facilitator was the person who was able to be effective.
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How can you talk a little bit about how that power struggle unfolded on
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your part? How do I say, I'm trying to be politically correct here,
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So give me just a second. So when they're what I know about
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me is that when someone is playing the victim, role and identifies. In
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that role, I can get hooked into either going into rescuing them or I
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get really angry and I want to do what Share did to Nicholas Cage in
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the movie Mood Struck and you know, slap across the face and say snap
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out of it. And I would never want to hurt anybody. And I
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don't, you know, but I have. I just want to own because
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I think it's important and it's been important for me in my supervision and consultation
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to own my shadows side, to own things I don't want to own that
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I'd feel ashamed, shamed about, like I would have a thought like that,
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like I just want to say, come on, you know, and
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if I don't own that, I'm going to act out on it. So
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supervision again, i'd plug plug plug for that. But how it unfolded was
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that that's what happened. He was playing the victim really well, and I
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saw him trying to manipulate his parents and me and the other therapist, and
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I wasn't having it. And rather than being able to do what I said
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before, is breathed deeply and slowly and you know, continue to say ask
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for guidance like, Okay, get my ego out of here. It showed
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up very very fast, guy. I mean it happened before I even realized
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it, and so I just take it. You know, I was human
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and that happened, and what can I learn from it? I hope that
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answers your question enough. It does, and it kind of reiterates the theme
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that's been unfolding in this interview. From my perspective is that the work quote
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unquote, you've done the self awareness that you've cultivated to get to the place
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where you know you're able to before session in session have that awareness such that
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you're working on your breathing and so forth. How did you get to that
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point? I get to that point, Well, I'm thinking one thing when
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you're talking, and that is some of my education in the early nineties and
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throughout about interpersonal neurobiology Dan Jay Siegel's work and other people's work, that our
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nervous system impacts the other person's nervous system, and that the mind really is
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when we're connecting with somebody else, it's not just in our own body.
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And so when I found that out, I realized, you know what,
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I have to keep myself calm and when I keep myself calm. This is
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a learning from psychodrama that when I keep myself calm, my spontaneity goes up
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and my spontaneity. In psychodrama definition, spontaneity is the ability to have an
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adequate response to a new situation and a different response to an old situation.
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So that informs me as well as my spontaneity being my intuition being when I'm
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sitting with a client and I'm thinking something and then it comes out of their
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mouth about twenty seconds later, the being in tune with that client, so
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breathing in session, I do meditative practice. That's been very helpful for me,
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knowing that my nervous system impacts their nervous system, and if I want
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them to help them self regulate, I need to regulated. And when I
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breathe and slow it down, that I have more of that spontaneity. And
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I'm not coming from my head and my intellect. I'm coming from my heart
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and my gut. And that is what I've seen is the transformation piece for
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my clients, and they've told me that I've gotten that feedback. You know,
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you are the person who's been most present for me in my entire life,
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and I've never had a therapist even to be as present as you are
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with me, and it means so much now. But do you know what
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is your why? What keeps you going in this work? What keeps me
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going in this work is seeing the miracles that happen for my clients, the
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AHAs, the changes in behavior, the going from being a victim in childhood
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of trauma to letting go of that role in adulthood, and being at what
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I say is going from victim to survivor to thriver and to see my clients
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move into thriving. Oh my goodness, my heart just opens, it bursts
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with love. You know, it's just and I don't take credit for it.
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What I know is I'm a part of the process for them, and
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I've been a facilitator and a guide and that is my greatest honor. So
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that's what keeps me going of It reminds me of something in you in your
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bio that, Oh, I would like to ask you to kind of clarify,
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which was the term covert emotional incest. I mean, you know,
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I think people can maybe figure that out, but what does that mean?
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Thank you for asking I appreciate that because this is also I know. One
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of my purposes is to get the information about COVID emotional incest out there to
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not only professionals, but to the late public as well. So quick definitions.
24:56
When well, one or both parents a objectify and or use their child
25:03
as a surrogate or substitute spouse, and I want to say a couple more
25:10
things about that. So when a child is used as a substitute spouse objectified,
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it inappropriately sexual sexualizes that child and they have to grow up real fast.
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Aspects of their childhood are denied and the child is forced to meet the
25:26
parents' emotional and romantic needs. Now this as Ken Adams, who wrote the
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book Silently seduced. He's kind of the father of He calls it COVID incest.
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He talks about the surrogate spouse role. I add in the objectify role
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in terms of COVID emotional incest. He talks about the yucky or ikey factor.
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And that's absolutely true. So there's not a big three syllable world clinical
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term for how people who've experienced this feel. It is just ikey and you
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can't put your finger on it, and you don't have a name for it
26:08
until you do. And so you feel special, like you know, like
26:12
like an incest survivor, feel special on the chosen one and adult like.
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And yet you also know the back of that, which is the powerlessness and
26:22
the guilt and the shame. So it's confusing. It's uh, it really
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messes up people's ability to have healthy intimate relationships. And it's something that the
26:34
professional community really still doesn't talk about. I've doesn't have research about. I
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think the last two things I'll say is, you know, COVID emotional incest
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victims have very similar signs and symptoms to overt or physical sexual abuse victims or
26:52
survivors, and so we can just jump on that, you know, jump
26:56
on that train that they've been physically sexually abused. Really really caution about that
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and learn about COVID emotional incests so that you can ask the right questions and
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you can discern between that. We know in the nineties there was a whole
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movement to the false memory movement, and we don't want to be jumping on
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any bandwagons, so we want to be able to interview and assess. And
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I was going to say one other thing, and it's gone. That's what
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happens when you're in your mixtifties. Well, thank you and we'll come back
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to thank you for clarifying, and I'll link up to that book is Silently
27:34
Seduced in the show notes at Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Adina, you've
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given a lot of advice, a lot of suggestions. Let's kind of a
27:47
kind of hone in on advice nuggets you have for people getting into this field,
27:53
people even people who are who are practicing in this field. What would
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you say to them? If you don't mind, I want to say one
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other thing about COVID emotional incest and then go into that if we have the
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time. That is that On my website, there's a lot of information about
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COVID emotional incest. Ken Adams book is there. Pat Love the Emotional Incest
28:14
Syndrome. Her book is on there. My book that I'm writing will be
28:18
published in the summer. The working title for that book is called Maybe I'm
28:23
Not Crazy after All And it is a book of my story COVID emotional incest,
28:32
and it's written in a form of stories and pieces so that it's not
28:37
the typical self help book. My colleagues have asked me for a book that
28:44
is about somebody's story that clients can read and really identify with, rather than
28:52
a typical self help book about explaining things in clinical terms, because the clients
28:57
don't want to read that, but they would read somebody's quote unquote biography.
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And so the book that I'm writing is my story along with information that will
29:08
provide pride information for therapists as well as clients. So I just wanted to
29:12
I just wanted your listeners to know that and to be kind of looking out
29:15
for that. Excellent, excellent, Well when when's that coming out? Come
29:19
out? Either June or July. Okay, well that's what we're hoping for.
29:23
Well I'll have you back on here and we can talk about that.
29:26
That'd be awesome. Thank you. All right, So the the you said
29:30
recommendations, right, yes, okay, So first recommendation is to do your
29:38
own therapy and take continue to stay aware of who you are and what might
29:47
get in the way for yourself. Again, psychodrama big piece is role reversal,
29:52
being able to see the world through somebody else's eyes and feel the world
29:55
through their body. And if I've never been in the client role. How
29:59
am I supposed to really be able to emphasize and switch places with my clients.
30:04
So I'm really big on that. I'm extremely big on being an ongoing
30:10
clinical supervision with somebody who knows what they're talking about regarding whatever specialty you're in.
30:15
We're talking about trauma now, so somebody who really knows about trauma and
30:19
is up on the latest and greatest in terms of research and clinical models.
30:26
That you will not learn everything you need to know in your graduate program,
30:30
that you will learn everything you need to know afterwards from your clients, and
30:34
continued education really really important. And don't don't make anybody a major guru and
30:44
just think that Okay, you know they know it all. Use your critical
30:48
mind. Feel what it is that feels right. Like I had said earlier,
30:52
what's what feels right to you what doesn't. And an example of that
30:56
is I got trained in EMDR. I love the DR. I think EMDR
31:00
is fabulous. It doesn't fit with my personality, so I don't do it
31:04
much. I refer out nice. Yeah. So those are the major major
31:11
recommendations. Oh one last thing, seriously ask yourself the question of why you
31:17
got into the field in the first place, because that was a major catalyst
31:22
for me to the God, to the quote of there is a God and
31:26
I'm not it awesome. Okay, this is great. I love it all.
31:32
Right, let's kind of move here to go to books. I mean
31:36
you mentioned silently silently Seduced. What else would you offer? Okay? So
31:42
there are three books that have transformed me. The Silently Seduced book, Yes
31:48
and Pat Love's Emotional Incests, Syndrome for Trauma, and The Therapist by Laurie
31:55
and Perlman and Karen Sach Whitney again back in the nineties. Haven't seen a
32:00
book like it's since it's about therapists who are treating sexual abuse, in particular
32:06
trauma and the kinds of kind of transference that happen so that you don't feel
32:10
like you're crazy, but you have a guide. And they pushed so much
32:16
about self care, and that's the other thing about have a life outside of
32:20
your work. I heard Colin Rows say that on one of your podcasts,
32:22
and I he's one of my mentors. So that book saved my life,
32:30
informed my practice. Another book that blew my mind and opened me to a
32:36
very very different way of looking at People was The Mosaic Mind by Richard Schwartz,
32:40
who is the developer of internal family Systems therapy. That was his first
32:45
book, So anything by Richard Schwartz at this point I would recommend. What
32:51
he taught me was that people aren't sick, that dissociation and people's trauma reactions
32:58
are about brilliant survival skills, and so to pathologize people doesn't work. Colin
33:06
Ross taught me that also. And the other and the latest book that new
33:12
people will probably here about is The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel vander Kolk.
33:16
And that book Vanderkolts just talking to you. I've seen him presents so
33:21
many times. He's another mentor of mine. He's just talking to you in
33:25
that book about his experience and about his research. And he talks and his
33:31
chapters on yoga, internal family systems, and EMDR in theater because he uses
33:38
those programs at the Trauma Center in Boston, and so he's challenging kind of
33:44
the status quo medical model. He's always been doing that. One of the
33:46
things I love about him. So that book incredible, very easy read,
33:53
and very informative. Awesome. Okay, so we have trauma therapist, the
34:00
mosaic mind, the body keeps a score. Again, I'll have all these
34:05
linked up. And how about if people want to get in contact with you,
34:09
Adina, what's the best way? Best way is I think through my
34:15
website. At this point, I have my website at Adina bank Lees dot
34:20
com. I also have a professional Facebook page Adina bank Lease, and I
34:25
post a lot of things on there. My hope is that I can put
34:29
a link on my Facebook page to this conversation that we're having. Oh definitely,
34:34
yeah, yeah. And I don't like to give out my phone number
34:37
on things like this, so I will have people with my website and my
34:42
Facebook page and you can get my phone number on my website. Awesome,
34:45
Awesome, Well, it's been just a joy talking to you. I mean,
34:52
your passion just comes through and I love it again. You know,
34:58
when your book comes out, I'd love to have you back on here because
35:00
I feel like I could be talking to you about this topic sincerely. I
35:05
mean, you know, I know that our listeners can hear the passion in
35:09
the work you do and the story stories you've told about how things unfolded for
35:15
you. Is just this really a Deena? Is what this podcast is about
35:19
is looking at that and being inspired by that, and I want to thank
35:22
you so much for sharing that on this podcast. You're so welcome. And
35:28
when we talk next time, there's another influential person and model around psychodrama and
35:35
trauma that I want to talk about because I left her out and her work
35:39
has transformed to me as well. So we'll talk again. Oh great,
35:44
I look forward to it. Thank you so much. Thanks guys, Bye
35:45
bye bye bye to