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How a Vietnam Veteran Built America's Most Sacred Police Memorial · Heroes Behind the Badge

0:11
Dennis Collins: A warm welcome back to Heroes Behind the Badge where we
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Okay, today, as always, we have a very special guest and, uh in order
1:06
to introduce him properly, let me introduce my colleagues As always,
1:10
Bill Erfurth and Craig Floyd.
1:13
Good morning gentlemen.
1:16
Morning.
1:16
Morning, sir. Mr. Er was formerly lieutenant er for 26 years with
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the Miami Police Department.
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A highly decorated, exciting, thrilling career.
1:29
Yeah.
1:29
And he is now a founding director of Citizens Behind the Badge.
1:34
And of course, of course, Craig Floyd.
1:37
You probably know Craig from the Law Enforcement Officer's Memorial.
1:41
He is the.
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Founding director, CEO, emeritus of the Law Enforcement Memorial and the museum,
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and he is the founder and our fearless leader of citizens behind the badge.
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He's our CEO and President, and he's here today to join me with our guest.
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Good morning, Craig.
1:59
Craig Floyd: Morning Dennis.
1:59
Good to be with you sir. As always.
2:01
Dennis Collins: Always good to be with both of you.
2:03
Uh, we always like to remind people and Billy Erfurth does this, well remind
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Bill Erfurth: Oh, we wanna make sure that everyone jumps on, uh.
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Get us more response and that would be great.
2:53
Okay, so let's get to today's guest.
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Little did he know when he volunteered for the drafts in late 1960s, right
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in the middle of the Vietnam War, that his name would become famous forever.
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Today's guest, Jan Scruggs.
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He served in Vietnam as an army infantryman, spent most of his time firing
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81 millimeter rounds at enemy targets.
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But in May, 1969, he was in his first battle.
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He was being evacuated by an armored unit.
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He had a premonition that that day he was gonna get hit.
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Well, unfortunately, the worst happened.
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He was severely injured.
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He thought he was near death.
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As he was bleeding out, he said the Lord's Prayer, and he made a promise.
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Look, God, if you can get me out of this mess here, I'll do something to pay you.
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Back in 1979, Scruggs announced to the world that a national
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memorial to the Vietnamese War veterans heroes would be built.
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And two and a half years later.
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In 1982, it became a reality.
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Scruggs stood at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington DC and opened
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it to a crowd of over 50,000 people.
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A promise made, a promise, kept.
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Some, wanted a war memorial.
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Scruggs wanted to focus on the men and women, the people who had served and died.
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And now the world can see the 58,279 names engraved forever on the wall forevermore.
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Jan Scruggs, welcome to Heroes Behind the Badge Podcast.
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Thank you for your service, but most important of all,
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thank you for your vision.
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The one thing I would like to ask you to kind of start as the story is told on
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that fateful day when you were injured, when you were wounded, you had deployed
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your poncho as a protective device that probably saved you from instant death.
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Is that story true?
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Jan Scruggs: Yeah.
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They were firing a rocket pro propelled grenades at us.
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It's a little bomb about like that shoots through a bazooka and uh.
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They fired three of them on all, all sides of me, but especially on my buttocks.
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So yes, the, the shrapnel was so weak once, you know, once
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everything started working that I was able to, uh, have a good day.
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Uh, I got rescued by some, uh, Vietnam veteran guys and, uh,
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this a crazy thing happened to me.
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So, uh, anyway, we all interesting.
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I think people, law enforcement and uh, military veterans have a
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lot of things in common, no doubt.
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Yeah.
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A lot of dangerous situations I have to deal with that can come outta nowhere.
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And, uh, so you least expect it.
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Yes, you least expect it.
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There's some guy with a 12 gauge.
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Dennis Collins: But, but you were ready.
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Thankfully you were ready.
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And the story that we're gonna hear today, uh, is amazing.
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It probably would've never happened if you weren't here.
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So let's, uh, I know you and Craig Floyd have a long history together.
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Let's, let's start off with Craig and, and kind of go over this amazing story.
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Craig Floyd: Jan, uh, it's been a long time since we've been together, and
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it's a privilege because it brings back such great memories of how Jan Scruggs,
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the man who built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, dedicated in 1982, became such a
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helpful, supportive voice for the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial.
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And Jan, I, I think really to get started, I, I called you.
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Out out of the blue when we were struggling to build the National
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Law Enforcement Officer's Memorial.
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And I have to believe because of your success in 1982 that you probably
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got a lot of calls, like, uh, the one you got from me asking for help.
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How did you do it?
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And I think, you know, does, let's start with.
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What were the secrets to your success?
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Nobody had built a national memorial in Washington, DC for many, many years.
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I don't know the, the last one before yours, but it was probably,
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you know, the Lincoln Memorial, the, uh, you know, Jefferson Memorial.
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There were some big ones, but none really, uh, happened until 1982 all of a sudden,
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Jan Scruggs, uh, is the man who built it.
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What were the secrets to your success?
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How in the world did you, uh, counter all, you know, all those obstacles,
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uh, that were in your way and, and what were the secrets to, uh, the
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Vietnam Veterans Memorial success?
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Jan Scruggs: The, the success of almost anything revolves around the team that
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you put together to guide the project through the, the hurdles of Washington
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National Capital Planning Commission.
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All these different commissions look at you and, uh, and look at your project
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and decide whether to approve it or not.
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So, uh, we got some pretty good people involved.
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The architect.
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A.
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The memorial itself is absolutely fantastic.
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'cause it has two big lions, the African lions guarding each side and
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showing that, uh, the general public and the police were on the same team.
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So,
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Craig Floyd: and that Ray Kaskey was our sculptor of those Lions, Kaskey.
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Jan Scruggs: Kaskey, that's the name, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Craig Floyd: Ray Kaskey and Davis Buckley was the architect, uh, that you
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introduced us to, to build the National law enforcement officers memorial.
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Yeah.
8:57
Yeah.
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So let me, let me stop.
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Lemme stop you there because this was an interesting part I wanted to get into.
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Um, Maya Lin was the architect who designed the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
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Correct.
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And it was, you selected Maya Lin and her design through a design
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competition that was open to dozens of architects all over the world.
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Her, uh, design was selected when you advised me as to how we should select
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an architect, how we should get a design for our memorial, which we didn't have
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one at the time when I met you, um, you said you didn't want us to do a design
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competition, that we should commission a single architect and basically work
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with him and tell him what we wanted.
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Uh, and then that was a better way to go.
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Why, why did you tell us that when you had such great success with
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your design competition for vie?
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Jan Scruggs: It just looked like this was gonna be a little more
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difficult than the Vietnam thing.
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You know, policemen in everybody's mind, you know, and when you wake up at night
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and you know, worry what's going on here?
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So.
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Instead of go going the way we did with the Vietnam wall, we decided to go with
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the idea of a different kind of wall, but very effective one that draws people in.
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Not only veterans veteran police officers, but uh, really talented
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people who keep us all safe for try two.
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Craig Floyd: Made sense.
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And I, I think you also mentioned, uh, the expense involved and the time
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involved in getting a design, uh, selected and ultimately approved.
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And I, I think everybody needs to understand that when you build a national
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memorial in Washington, DC as you alluded to, there are a number of hoops you
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have to jump through, especially with.
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Design and site approval.
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You have to go through the Commission of Fine Arts.
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You have to go through the National Capital Planning Commission,
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the Secretary of Interior, and the National Park Service.
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I mean, it's one after the other and it can be a very lengthy process.
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We only had five years.
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When I called you in 1986, December, I said, Jan.
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Look, you're, you're the man who did it.
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Uh, we're struggling.
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All right.
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We, we were two years into the national law enforcement officer's
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memorial authorization process.
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Congress gave us five years to select a site to raise all the money, to get
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a design approved and to ultimately start construction on our memorial.
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We were struggling and the clock was ticking, and then I called you and we
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had lunch and, and the rest is history.
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You set us on the right path.
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But, uh, but as you pointed out with your experience at Vietnam, you were
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able to navigate a lot of those hurdles for us, and you became our first
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full-time employee at the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial.
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Uh, I don't think many people realized that, but it was Jan Scruggs who
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really set us on the right path.
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And, uh, yeah.
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Tell me about your struggles.
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I mean, how long did it take from beginning to end to build
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the Vietnam Veterans Memorial?
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Jan Scruggs: Basically, uh, from beginning and end, it took three
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years, which was outrageous.
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I mean, we, they could have done a lot of things to stand in our way, but a
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lot of people with these commissions recognize that this made sense.
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This is something that affects a lot of people.
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The idea of our personal freedoms and being.
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Doing what we have anyway, I had the largest architectural design competition
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held in the history of we Western civilization was for the Vietnam
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Veterans Memorial by Maya Ying, win a, uh, Chinese American, a patriotic,
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you know, she grew up in a little town in uh, Ohio, and they were the
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only Chinese family in the, in Ohio.
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So.
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We with the right people, with a plan in place.
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And, you know, I was, I was off to, I just decided I was gonna be the world's
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most successful 42-year-old lawyer.
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And I said, uh, so I went to law school, which was a total bust, but
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uh, I came back to where I started and Li Life's been very good to me.
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Bill Erfurth: So, so Craig, let me jump in and let's, yeah, go ahead talk a little
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little bit about, about the backstory.
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So, as you were saying, you had five years that you were able to get this project
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off the ground to establish a national law enforcement officer's memorial.
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The backstory is that you were working on Capitol Hill, you were an aide,
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uh, Mario Biaggi was a congressman, and, and you were, you were basically
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tapped to go and and do this.
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So you had five years, as you had mentioned, you, you were two years
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into this, you were struggling and hadn't really come together
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and you reached out to Jan, but I don't know the connection there.
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So how was it that you and Jan at that point came together and
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how did that change everything after those first two years?
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Craig Floyd: So it, it was a, one of our board members, alright,
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his name is Ray Pazuello.
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Uh, he was with the turn order police in Rhode Island and he
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was on our board of directors.
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And uh, we looked at each other one day, all of us sitting around the
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table saying, you know, what can we do to get this, uh, thing going?
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'cause we weren't getting any traction after two years, I think
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we had raised $44,000 and we knew it was gonna cost multiple
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millions of dollars to get it done.
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We didn't have a site, we didn't have a design.
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And uh, Ray said, you know what, Jan Scruggs built the
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Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
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Uh, why don't you give Jan a call and see if he might be willing to share some
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of his advice, his secrets of success.
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So I picked up the phone.
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I I managed to find your phone number, Jan. I don't remember how I did that.
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Uh, called Jan up, said, Hey, would you mind having lunch with me?
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We went up to Capitol Hill one day, had lunch.
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He was very willing to meet and, uh, was very, uh, generous with
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his advice over lunch that day.
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And Jan, I, this is an interesting point.
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Uh, I think the main message, uh, that I remember from that lunch is.
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Craig, you'll never be successful building this memorial of yours for police.
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Unless you treat it like a full-time job, you're not gonna be able
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to do it on a volunteer basis.
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And as Bill uh alluded to, I was working at the time for Congressman Mario Biaggi.
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Uh, I was doing a lot of other things besides building the National Law
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enforcement officer's memorial.
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And, and Jan said, you know, you gotta have an office, you gotta have,
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uh, people working on this 24 7.
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And uh, Jan became our first full-time employee of the National Law
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Enforcement Officer's Memorial Fund.
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He said he had about eight months before he was gonna go to law school.
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And he'd love to come and help us out.
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And Jan, I I don't realize, uh, uh, to this day exactly why you chose us.
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Uh, like I said earlier, I'm sure you got a lot of opportunities to
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help other memorials, or at least people that dreamed of building
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a memorial came to you for help.
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And, uh, yet you chose us and, and you gave us eight months of your time and,
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uh, really, uh, got this thing rolling.
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Um, we never would've done it without you.
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Did, do you remember that lunch?
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Do you remember those early days?
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It was a long time ago.
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Jan Scruggs: I remember the, the passion that I felt listening to, to you talk
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about it, is that if anybody was the right person for the job, this was for you.
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And, uh, so you and I together put.
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What we needed.
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We didn't have much, but we had a little bit.
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And, uh, we started, uh, the, the process and, and found that very few people
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really wanted to stand in our way.
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We had more friends than enemies.
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And, uh, off we went.
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Craig Floyd: And I think one of the things you, you told me also is, um, you
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know, we needed to get a site selected.
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Um, and you eventually introduced me to a guy named Davis Buckley,
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who, uh, has worked hand in glove with me for, I don't know.
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Oh yeah.
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He worked with me for over 30 years building the National Law Enforcement
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Officers Memorial, but also the National Law Enforcement Museum.
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And you said Davis might be the right guy for the job.
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And then the three of us, you, Jan, Davis, Buckley, myself, representing the
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board of directors for the Memorial Fund.
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Um, we went after something rather bold.
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The Park service at that point in time had visions of any new memorials to
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anyone should be on Memorial Drive leading up to Arlington National Cemetery.
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Right?
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And they were gonna give us a little hedge row where we could build a a statue.
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Um, but we wanted something much grander, and you're the one.
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I think that as much as anybody said, why don't we think of something bold,
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get their attention, even if we're not successful, um, we'll get, we'll let
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'em realize we want something bigger than just a hedgerow on Memorial Drive.
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Together, we came up with an idea to build the national law enforcement
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officer's memorial on the ellipse, which is that grand piece of property with the
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national Christmas tree sitting there.
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Yeah.
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Between the White House and the Washington Monument.
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And that did get their attention.
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Did it not Jan.
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Jan Scruggs: It did It indeed.
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Craig Floyd: And, and I think you've made, kind of set the model for
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that because you did the same thing for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
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You said, we're not gonna have a hedgerow on Memorial Drive.
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We want something grand.
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Yes.
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Uh, and you got the site right next to the Lincoln Memorial, which uh, I'm
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sure a lot of other people would've loved to have that same site, and
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somehow you were able to get it done.
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That had to be a quite a challenge.
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Jan Scruggs: Yeah.
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And you're.
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These seminal events in American history, the Vietnam War, and the
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Civil War, and you're making a, a memorial that's relevant today, not
19:01
just yesterday, but today because people's lives are affected by it.
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But yes, uh, you know.
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We did it.
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I can't believe we pulled,
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can't believe we pulled this thing off.
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But, uh, with, because we didn't have a lot of time, we didn't, you
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know, you look at your calendar every day and say, are we gonna do
19:24
this in another three years or not?
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Go down to history as a bunch of CLOs and, uh.
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We, we did a, a great job, especially Craig Floyd is a very interesting
19:39
people we dealt with in the law enforcement community, and he has a
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very good ability to talk to people.
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You know, he doesn't talk down to them.
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He engages in very well individually.
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So that's a, that's a good trait to have generally,
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Craig Floyd: I think you had it in spades.
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Yeah.
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Names.
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Talk to me about the names.
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All right.
20:00
Until you built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, all the other monuments
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and memorials in Washington didn't really have names on them.
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Names of the fallen heroes from that war, or in our case, from the, the, the
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war on crime, the, the law enforcement officers of this country who have
20:17
given their lives in the line of duty.
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Um, how were you able to get, I don't know, 56,000 plus names?
20:25
Um, how did you compile that list, number one, and how were you able to
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get them, uh, inscribed on a memorial wall and get that design approved?
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Jan Scruggs: Yeah, we had, uh, some pretty big challenges facing us, but
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basically we could get, we felt we could get the the names we wanted for
20:47
the law enforcement memorial using the same tactics that we did, uh, earlier.
20:55
This was really important for the project in law enforcement.
20:58
Community Done in a very nice way.
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Uh, you don't hear big problems with this thing or people gathering
21:07
and, uh, it, it's just, just done.
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Its, its job very well.
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Bill Erfurth: Yeah.
21:13
So Jan, you're the man and, uh, you got this done.
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I, I don't think there's anyone that doesn't know about the
21:20
Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
21:22
There's some people that we still have to reach out to and
21:25
we gotta let them know about the National Law Enforcement Memorial.
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It's just not as, as prominent per se, but here we are, we're talking
21:32
about this and, and you're going back with Craig back to the eighties
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and here we are today in 2025.
21:39
Still, you have these massive events.
21:44
You have, and I, and I might might not be saying this, right, I'm trying to go off
21:47
the top of my head, but you have these angel flights or, or what, what Yes.
21:52
Called specifically where these elderly Vietnam veterans are being escorted
21:57
and brought back every year to the, to the memorial in DC and then every year,
22:02
and it's coming up right now in May.
22:06
Uh, you've got 30 or 40,000 law enforcement, uh, officers from
22:11
around the country and others that show up for National Police Week.
22:15
The legacy of both of these things now that you've been involved in, uh, just
22:21
continue to thrive and continue to live.
22:24
Talk about maybe one of your most rewarding, memorable experiences.
22:32
Jan Scruggs: Well, just, you know, we had major.
22:36
National controversy surrounding the design of this memorial.
22:40
These were very organized, uh, targeted people and, uh, they were
22:46
trying to grab our construction permit from us and so forth.
22:51
So I think probably the most interesting thing that.
22:56
Came our way was that, uh, we built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial at the
23:00
time of Ronald Reagan, and he was the president of the United States.
23:04
You know, we all had a chance to meet a very nice fellow and uh, we
23:10
were able to persuade him that, you know, give us a construction permit.
23:17
Permit, needs a construction permit.
23:19
If you give us a construction permit, we will have this built in several months.
23:25
And, uh, so we, we left and we hired a another, well, we didn't really hire
23:32
him, a guy who was volunteering his time.
23:35
He was a White House fellow at the time, west Point graduate with a, with an MBA.
23:40
I mean, these guys are really very talented.
23:44
So, uh, the opponents to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial knew where to get
23:51
us with the Secretary of the interior.
23:56
And they said, uh, yeah, they went to the secretary of the interior's office.
24:02
He was traveling at time and told them that we needed this construction
24:06
permit and we needed it now.
24:09
And they said, uh, they went and met with him separately and
24:13
they said, but we forgot to tell you the most important thing.
24:18
We have the ear and the complete support of Ronald Reagan, the
24:22
President of the United States.
24:24
He wants this done and he wants it done now.
24:27
Now, of course, we were kind of bullshitting him a little
24:31
bit, but he fell for it.
24:34
Bill Erfurth: Now did you get, did you get to meet Reagan?
24:36
Jan Scruggs: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:38
He came there in, uh, 1980 three.
24:43
Yeah.
24:44
Bill Erfurth: Yeah.
24:44
And what did he say to you about your accomplishment?
24:47
Jan Scruggs: Brought his, he brought his wife and uh, uh, just, uh.
24:52
Being with, with a historical figure like that.
24:55
It was a, a nice feeling.
24:58
But once, yeah.
24:58
And what did he say to you specifically?
25:00
We were going 90 miles an hour, man.
25:04
We had, uh, bulldozers and heavy equipment ripping the mall up
25:10
so that nobody could change it.
25:13
I mean, they big holes in the ground.
25:14
It looked like a, a war zone.
25:17
But, uh, we had to beat these guys and, and we did.
25:20
And, you know, not all of 'em.
25:23
Bill Erfurth: And what, and, and Jan, what did Reagan say to you?
25:26
What was your interaction with him?
25:30
Jan Scruggs: Our interaction was, uh, we had a couple of one meeting
25:34
in the White House and one of these guys, his name is Tom Shaw.
25:41
He, uh, he was a fantastic leader, so we had people like that and, and I
25:48
think the president saw that this was going to be, it may be a little bit of
25:52
a risk, but let's, let's see if this works and give these guys a break.
25:56
So he is.
25:59
I'm all in Ronald Reagan.
26:00
Not, not everybody likes him, but, uh, he doesn't, he doesn't have a lot of enemies.
26:05
You don't hear a lot, a lot of people complaining about Ronald
26:08
Reagan and back in the days of Ronald Reagan, people were more simple.
26:14
Bill Erfurth: Yeah.
26:14
That's awesome, Craig?
26:16
Craig Floyd: I just wanna maybe close with a comment and a question.
26:21
Uh, the comment being that I think people need to understand that Jan Scruggs not
26:26
only built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, but he was responsible in many ways,
26:31
directly and indirectly, uh, with things like the Korean War Memorial that got
26:37
built, uh, years later, the World War II Memorial, which had never, they never
26:42
had a memorial in Washington DC Yeah.
26:45
And, um, ultimately, uh, the National Law Enforcement Officers
26:49
Memorial, among many others that followed after his success in 1982.
26:54
So, Jan, you, you have truly, uh, accomplished quite a bit in your life.
26:58
My friend, I, I wanna close with this question.
27:01
This is the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam veterans or Vietnam War.
27:07
Um, and, you know, it's many years since the memorial has been built,
27:12
honoring those veterans who died there.
27:14
Um, reflect, uh, just for a moment as we close out on the war itself, your memories
27:21
of the war, what you think about the war today and, um, and, and how much of an
27:27
impact do you think the Vietnam Veterans Memorial has made on this country?
27:34
Jan Scruggs: Yes, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial is very inclusive.
27:38
It pulls people in to see it.
27:40
You know, when you go see the great monuments of Washington, you go see the
27:43
Lincoln and George Washington Memorial.
27:47
Fantastic.
27:48
But in order to appreciate them, you've gotta go back about 300 yards far enough
27:53
away that you can see the whole structure.
27:56
So, uh, fantastic.
27:59
Uh, we also, we were the guys who came up with the idea of
28:05
Memorial for the, uh, survivors of
28:10
Iraq and Afghanistan as well.
28:13
That's on the chopping block Now.
28:14
There there's going to be one, they have a night, a good staff, and, and, uh, the.
28:21
They'll have, they'll have a nice design.
28:23
So we're not leaving anybody, we're not trying to cr create the entire
28:28
world memorials or anything like that.
28:31
Uh, it's just, just a really nice thing to do and you get a feel that you're
28:35
doing something that is good for the nation, often are often divided nation.
28:41
Craig Floyd: Well, let me just close by saying Jan, uh, you know, you've done
28:45
many, uh, great things in your life.
28:47
Certainly the Vietnam Veterans Memorial is at the top of the list, but, uh,
28:51
you're also a hero behind the badge because if not for you, uh, I don't
28:56
think we would have a national law enforcement officer's memorial today.
29:00
I think it some point we might've had to give it up.
29:03
Um, but you said it straight.
29:04
We were successful.
29:06
And today, uh, our National Law Enforcement officers memorial is,
29:10
is very impactful, as is the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in terms of healing
29:15
for the surviving family members of officers, uh, who died in the line of
29:18
duty, as well as an appreciation that in your case, was not shown to Vietnam
29:23
veterans when they returned from the war.
29:26
Uh, and I think, uh, the same is true of police officers in this country.
29:29
I don't think they've been appreciated nearly enough by this country, but those
29:34
two memorials have made the difference.
29:36
Today people do appreciate those soldiers who fought in Vietnam
29:40
just as they appreciate the men and women in law enforcement who are
29:44
serve and protect our communities every day at great personal risk.
29:48
So thank you, my friend.
29:49
It's been great to reminisce and uh, I wish you well and, uh, again, a
29:53
big thank you for all you did, uh, to support law enforcement in this country.
29:59
Jan Scruggs: Uh, thank you for your big role.
30:01
You did this, uh, on your own.
30:05
You didn't have much in, in the way of staff, but you, you've, you've,
30:10
you stopped the guys at the, at the gates, so it was very good.
30:14
We had some, uh, we opponents as well.
30:18
The law enforcement memorial.
30:21
But anyway, we beat them back and everything's fine.
30:24
So God, not easy.
30:25
The 50th anniversary is coming up, are these
30:28
Dennis Collins: right?
30:28
Jan Scruggs: War in Vietnam and other wars, but uh,
30:31
Dennis Collins: wow.
30:32
Hard to believe, isn't it?
30:34
Yeah.
30:35
Hey Jan. Uh, thanks for joining us on Heroes Behind the Badge.
30:39
This is a story that needed to be told and thanks for telling it.
30:43
Also, thank you for your service.
30:46
Thank you for your amazing vision of how to memorialize
30:50
the people who count the heroes.
30:52
And most important, thank you for your help in making the National Law
30:56
Enforcement memorial, um, a, a reality.
31:01
A place where we never forget.
31:04
We'll never forget our war heroes, our Vietnam War heroes, and we'll
31:07
never forget our heroes behind the badge in no small part.
31:11
Thanks to you
31:14
Heroes.
31:14
Behind the Badge podcast, we tell the real stories about real cops.
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32:44
Again, thanks to Jan Scruggs, our guest.
32:47
Thanks to Bill Erfurth, Craig Floyd, my colleagues.
32:50
This is Dennis Collins signing off for this edition of Heroes Behind the Badge.