Latest / Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast / Finding purpose after tragedy and the fight to end the maternal mortality crisis

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Finding purpose after tragedy and the fight to end the maternal mortality crisis · Arrivals: A Birth Story Podcast

• Merelise Wilson: Let's do it. Hello and welcome to the Arrivals podcast. I'm your host, Merelise Wilson And today I have the father, Dadvocate, CEO of For Kira For Moms, just amazing human being in general, Charles Johnson here with me. Merelise she gonna make me blush. Listen, I'm so excited to be here, right? Just you and what you're doing and just how you're sharing these stories with this podcast. And so for me ⁓ to our story and just chat with you is just truly an and I'm excited to be here ⁓ and share time with you and your listeners. Well, thank you. I was going to say that I know that... Birth stories, I'm sure, are a very bittersweet subject for you, so I'm honored and thankful that you're willing to spend this time. reflecting with me and with the audience, really means a lot. Thank you. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I know we got so much to cover but we just have to I mean I don't know if we're supposed to go here But this is like just to be here just understand how far our families go back right? Yes, like and I don't know for everybody that's listening. Um Really? Merelise his husband Chris and his older brother have been lifelong friends. And in fact Her father-in-law was my t-ball coach. That's how far we go back. And so it's so cool. I'm just so proud of what you all are building here and just to see like, I mean, I don't. fact that we're all adults is crazy, right? And that Chris and Matt are these amazing fathers and truly, I was joking with him before we hopped on, has done extremely well for himself, chose very well, but no, it's really exciting and it's just so cool to have this kind full circle moment to sit here and chat with you. It is, it's wild, I remember. I met you for the first time like eight or nine years ago. It was before I had kids, before I was interested in any of this. Never could have imagined we'd be sitting here today talking. So it is amazing. Absolutely, absolutely. Let's jump into it. Let's do it. I know that you talk obviously a lot about Langston's birth with the work that you do and everything, but I obviously want to talk about Charles V's birth too. But I also thought if you don't mind, I'd love to really... start by talking about Kira. Sure. she should be here. Yeah. Doing this with us. Yeah. I don't know what she was, but if you want to just tell everyone about her, I think that'd be a good place to No, and I appreciate that. So for me, I mean, honestly, bragging about Kira is still one of my favorite things to do. And so. Matt and Chris know that she was way out of my league. We're talking about a woman that ⁓ was the most phenomenal human being that I've ever met. We're talking about a woman that raced cars, that ran marathons, that traveled the world, spoke five languages fluently, and really just challenged me to be a better person in every single aspect of my life. ⁓ for me, I always wanted to be a father. ⁓ so we had the opportunity to just have this ⁓ amazing life before kids traveling the world, seeing things, building businesses together. And it was just so cool to make the transition from friends to partners to just building a life together. And so when we talk about getting ready for Charles's birth, it was just huge for me, man. Not even just going back to your family and the influence that, Stan Wilson, who is the goat, your father-in-law had on me. Shout out to Stan, right? And I was telling you when we had lunch the other day that he really shaped a lot of how the father, the type of father I wanted to be, right? This guy that was just always had this amazing energy and you could always feel the love he had for his boys and for his family and just him coaching the T-ball team and how he would show up with all this energy and just have this kind of... beautiful enthusiasm that would wrangle all these little knuckleheads. And so for me, that's what I wanted to be. I wanted to be that dad that was involved coaching the teams, super present. And so I found out, when we found out we were welcoming our first son, Charles, the fifth, believe it or not, in 2014, we were so thrilled. Right, so thrilled. Kira, just in typical Kira fashion was just over the top with everything. She started planning ⁓ first birthday party when she found out she was pregnant. Right? That's the type of mom that she was. Just, ⁓ were just so thrilled. And of course that first go around, for those of you all who are listening, ⁓ know it's different. It's like you're over buying everything. You're over anxious. You are just reading everything. You are just ⁓ ⁓ everything like literally from a consumption standpoint of purchasing everything to reading everything and trying to be as informed as possible and so We welcomed Charles in September of 2014 and throughout cures pregnancy. She was ⁓ really healthy we plan to have a You know a vaginal delivery here in Atlanta at Northside and You know went in ⁓ It's interestingly Kira's water broke actually on the table at our last OB visit. Really? Right? So we literally were like in our OB visit and we were like, ⁓ boy, it's happening. That's fun And so it was like, it was convenient. So we literally just hopped in the car and went across the street and you know, we were progressing through Langston's delivery, but what happened was as, Kira began to have contractions, Charles's heart would drop when she had these, these contractions. And it kind of got to a point where it really some concerns. So Kira had to have an emergency cesarean ⁓ for Langston's delivery, is important contextually. I'm sorry for delivery. Thank you. Cause I talk about Langston's delivery so often ⁓ for Charles's delivery ⁓ which is important. talk a little bit about Langston's delivery, but, it was, It was scary there for a second, right? And so they rushed her back. But the team at Northside was amazing. ⁓ They got Langston out, I'm sorry, Charles out once again, sorry guys. Charles out, he was perfectly healthy and we were just overjoyed. Kira, ⁓ of ⁓ anybody been through a cesarean delivery knows that they can be challenging, ⁓ but recovery was good. ⁓ And ⁓ really spent a couple of days at Northside with a team that was just really wonderful ⁓ and went home with this amazing, ⁓ perfect boy and started trying to figure it all out. ⁓ trying to figure all the things out. you know, for us, it was just such a, just amazing time in our lives, right? Just ⁓ to meet this brand new little guy that had such an old soul. And if you spend time with Charles now, even at 11, like he is just wise beyond his years, right? And we just remember him just like staring at us like he had been here before, like from within hours. Like as soon as he could open eyes, he was like, okay. Just checking everything out and just very chill, very cool. And he's still very much that way. I love that classic first born energy. Classic first born energy, seriously. So you obviously know so much about birth and everything now, probably more than you ever thought you would. No question. But leading up to Charles's birth, did you guys have any sort of birth plan, preferences? Had you engaged a doula or? Listen, we had all the plans, right? And I think that's one of the things that's so important to talk about is that the best intention is the best birth plan possible. I think that it's so important to set your expectations and your preferences going in to your birthing experience because you want to have a plan. You want to have what your ideal scenario is, but you also have to be open and prepared for what happens if things don't go according to plan. And so that's really what happened. We had a very clear birth plan. We had a team that we felt really good about. ⁓ We interviewed a lot of doctors and we were really really comfortable with this practice. We did not engage a doula the first time ⁓ Those of you all who are familiar with my story my advocacy work that I am a huge fan of doulas I am a huge champion proponent of the list now because I have learned so much and I'm so appreciative of what Doulas bring to everybody's birthing experience But the first time around we did not so yeah We had we had a birth plan But once again that birth plan when Charles was in distress really went out the window and we were very fortunate that the team was ⁓ on top of Kira's and Charles' situation and sure that what was a temporary scare did not become ⁓ detrimental or catastrophic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ So in this beautiful little bubble and you guys decide why not just... ⁓ Throw something else in the mix. Throw something else in the mix. So was interesting. just understanding Kira. Kira comes from a big family. And she is the youngest of four, but then she also has all these cousins that grew up like siblings that are like stair steps. So the idea of having back to back boys, right, began to be something that we talked about, right? She's like, I can do this. And it was interesting. The first go round, Kira was like, I don't really care. She would say that she didn't care. I think that secretly she wanted a boy, but. You know, and I was like, I don't care. I just want a healthy kid. I was very classic, like just, just God, just healthy baby. That's all I care about. But the second time around, she was like, look, I want a boy. Like I'm not playing this game. Like I want, I want boy. I want him to have a brother. I want them to be built in best friends. I was still like, cool. I was, I would have been happy either way. When we found out we were going to be welcoming Langston, you know, our second boy and the boys would be actually 18 months apart. We were just thrilled, right? ⁓ absolutely thrilled. ⁓ And just so excited man, was just such a cool time and just full of joyful But it's interesting we talk about this, this is another topic I'm some of your listeners deal with. We have kids, particularly once they're close together, ⁓ is one Kira's biggest fears was ⁓ that Charles feel ⁓ the just ⁓ just feel like he was brushed to the side, right? And because of that bond and how close her and were. So one of the things we were really intentional about, and it really has just been, it's just like these things that Kira was so intentional about have just continued to just prove to have these amazing ripples in the pond, even in her absence. But she was so intentional about just beating into Charles' head the importance of being a big brother. and that they were best friends, right? And there's a kid that's, know, he's 14, know, 15, 16, you know, 18 months old. And like literally it's like, you know, once she got pregnant, her belly started showing. It's like, where's Langston? Point to Langston, go give Langston a hug. Who's the best big brother? And he's like, me! Who's the best big brother? Me! I'll give Langston a hug. And he's going to hug Kira's belly and talk to Langston. They'd read books together and this whole thing of just building this bond for them far before he was even here. And... it just really makes me think about, I have this amazing video of the first time that the two of them met and it was interesting, it was like, here's Langston, he just kind like, ⁓ wow, like it's, ⁓ my gosh. so it, you know, even though the... Welcoming of his younger brother was not what we had planned for. There was still this amazing groundwork that Kira had done in anticipation of his arrival that has just continued to be the fabric of their bond so to this day. That's so beautiful. I remember when I was pregnant with my second, I didn't know it was going to be a boy, but I did have that fear of like, you know. I was so close to my first born. He was such a mama's boy. I don't know if you like that too. Oh my gosh. And so I just had this fear of like, Oh, is he going to think that I don't love him as much or how am I to divide your time? And then you just figured out, but I love what you said about giving them like a role, you know, like making it there. It's part of their job too. It's not just and daddy taking care of this baby. Like it's you, got to like, you know, pull your weight and like you a job too. You're the brother. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. And I mean, and I think that then it kind of got cool because that was what the... the whole family kind of got in on it, right? And would just kind of reinforce that for Charles. And it's just interesting because he still takes his role as a big brother. He's constantly policing his younger brother and their personalities are very different. Sometimes Langston needs a little bit of policing. But my hope is that they'll just always be super close. I think that's what all of us hope for all of our kids, right? That they'll just understand that ⁓ at the end of the day, we are all we have, right? So So true. So you guys get pregnant with Langston. She's talking about how... Charles is gonna be the best big brother. And somewhere in the middle here you moved to LA. Right, right, right, right. so, know, Kira and in typical Kira fashion, we decided that we were gonna take on this in the midst of being pregnant, ⁓ this transition to LA. What was driving it? It was interesting. So Kira actually had some opportunities in the hospitality space. ⁓ then there was actually ⁓ project that I was gonna be executive producing in Los Angeles. Cool. ⁓ And so it was like, Hey, let's do LA, right? Adventure, we're young, Adventure, fuck yeah, two babies under two. New city, let's do it. it started off as just this really, really, really amazing transition and I've had the opportunity to spend a lot of time in LA and I always would do LA in moderation, right? Because it's a different place and I never really had the opportunity to. You know, I didn't spend a lot of time in LA when I was younger and when I was single and it's a lot of fun. But once again, you have to do LA in moderation. I never looked at it as a place to really raise a family. But and even when we got out there, our intention was maybe we'll do 18 months, two years and then ultimately always to come back to Atlanta was the plan. But it was interesting because once we got out there, we kind of got bit by the bug. Right. And we found a community and we just this idea that we could, you know, literally go to the mountains and go to the beach. in the same day if we wanted to, right? And just found so many cool ⁓ of friends and activities and just ⁓ that were just really, really amazing to have the kids exposed to. ⁓ we were really excited for this new start in LA. Yeah. Yeah. sounds like you it all planned out. ⁓ Yeah, definitely it planned out. And so how far along was Kira when you guys moved? So she was about four months along when we moved to LA. Yeah. Yeah. And so how did you guys decide where what OB practice that she would start seeing? Great question. So, Kira is a research nut, right? And so we, the painful irony of what took place with us was we were very intentional about wanting to deliver at Cedars-Sinai. So we interviewed only OBs that had credentials at Cedars. And why was it that you? Great question. So because it was our understanding that Cedars was the place. It was supposed to be the best place. It was supposed to be this fancy hospital in Beverly Hills ⁓ a teaching hospital and has this reputation for being the place. Definitely has that brand recognition. has that brand recognition. So we were very intentional about that. Not only that, it was also ⁓ very close to where we were living in LA. So, I mean, literally we were 10 minutes, like three miles from Cedars, right? So all those things kind of played into our decision to deliver at Cedars. And so we interviewed about four different OBs in LA. And we ultimately ended up deciding on doctor by the name of Dr. Kashanchi Dr. Kashanchi was an older gentleman, his reviews were great. When we went and sat down with him, he had this amazing bedside manner, very warm. then it's also, people have been through this, understand that also ⁓ your plays a big role in making you feel comfortable and welcome. So his receptionist was great. All of nurses were great. And so they just kind of really made us feel welcome ⁓ and comfortable. so we decided to go with Dr. Ghassanji ⁓ and we ⁓ what we was a wonderful rapport with him ⁓ and a of trust. ⁓ what's interesting is that we actually, was actually Dr. Kashanchi that recommended a scheduled cesarean for Langston's delivery. And he was saying, look, had an emergency cesarean for the first delivery. ⁓ think that ⁓ is the way to go. And that was his strong suggestion. ⁓ once again, we trusted him. And I know that people are listening will ask, was the ⁓ option a VBAC presented or a vaginal birth after C-section That was never something that was discussed. ⁓ And we were like, okay, doc, we trust you. If you think this is best, that's what we decided to do. ⁓ And so because this is family, I'll kind of share a lot more context that people who may be familiar with Kira's story may not be aware of. so ⁓ throughout Kira's entire pregnancy, she was in great health. all signs pointed to both her and Langston being extremely healthy. ⁓ it was very interesting as we got closer to Langston's due date, Dr. Kashanchi began to make mention this other doctor by the name of Dr. Naeem. ⁓ so he'd say hey, ⁓ of casually mention Dr. Naeem and say hey look, know, there's this other guy who sometimes I work with, if you guys have some time I want you to go by and meet him. ⁓ we kind of just kind of brushed it off because here in Atlanta at our practice in Northside, was a large, it was a large practice and whoever's on call catches the baby, right? And so. That's I was going to ask. Is it your understanding that Dr. Kashanchi would be the one who delivered? was. Okay. Which is different than a of times in Atlanta. That was our understanding. And then he kind of, he was kind of, he mentioned it kind of by the way. Yeah. ⁓ Up until our last visit, our last visit before Langston's delivery, we went in and at end of the visit, he asked the question again. He said, have you all had the opportunity to go meet Dr. Naim? We said, no, doc, we've just been busy. He says, look, and it was very interesting, his whole tone and demeanor changed and he got very serious. He says, look, I really want you to meet Dr. Naim. In fact, his office is right around the corner. Can you guys go over there now? I'll call ahead, tell them that you're coming, they'll roll out the red carpet for you, right? We had some downtime, we were like, you know what, cool. Doc wants us to go see him, fine. So we head over to Dr. Naim's office, and the first red flag was we walk in, and his receptionist was... smack in the middle of a full-blown just confrontation with a hearing impaired couple. She was being belligerent, she was loud talking, this hearing impaired couple, right, who just had questions about their paperwork. In a typical cure fashion, she comes in because she knows ESL and diffuses the whole thing. There's no sign language, right, just breezes in, just gets them situated, answers their questions, like just mediates the whole thing. waddles up to the desk and says, hey, we're the Johnsons, we're here to see Dr. Naim. The lady couldn't have been more rude, just condescending. You can't see him right now, but let me see. You're on his schedule, he'll see you on April 12th. And just dismissed us, literally like, he'll see you on April 12th. And I'm sure you guys were like, well, so the doctor sent us over here, said that you guys could see us, like we went out of our way. was so dismissive, she was so nasty, and it was like, okay, cool, right? And once again, it wasn't that big of a deal because it was, okay, he just, we didn't really anything of it and that's the thing is I kind of put these breadcrumbs back together. So it wasn't on your radar that he wanted you to meet him because he might deliver your baby. It was just it was like hey I want you to meet him right but it was interesting I remember that kind of thing like you're on his schedule he'll see you on the 12th which was when Langston was scheduled to be delivered I remember thinking about that and like huh okay so I remember going back to the car and to know that you've been there and some of your listeners who've been there close to the end, you're not gonna let anything steal your joy. We just kind of brushed it off. I remember walking back to the car with Kira and us joking about the fact that, man, we're so glad that we haven't had to deal with somebody like that for the past five months because... office and their staff has been so kind and ⁓ the opposite. ⁓ fast forward, ⁓ 12th comes. It's go time, right? So we ⁓ at Cedars, ⁓ we come in around noon, Langston's delivery is scheduled ⁓ two o'clock in the afternoon. ⁓ we arrive at Cedars, ⁓ we check in ⁓ and ⁓ Dr. Kashanchi comes ⁓ to meet us and Dr. Naim is with him. First time we've ever met him and I remember Dr. Kashanchi came to greet us and said, this is Dr. Naim. And I remember Dr. Naim being standing there and him just being on his phone. He says, oh, hi, right? And then it's like, and it was once again, he's introduced, we have these doctors here, right? So both doctors are there. Right, so they take us into the delivery room or the OR, however you choose to look at it, for the delivery. I'm behind the curtain, next to Kira, focused on Kira, listening for Langston, holding her hand, talking to her. I know that both doctors are there, but I can't see what's going on behind the curtain. Fast forward. ⁓ I hear Langston crying, they say, you know, he's here, I hear all the instruments, and so it's just like, he's here, they wrap him up, they hand him to Kira, and it's just like, ⁓ my gosh, like, he's here, he's perfect, he's, you know, he's healthy, you know, we get to meet him, you know, Kira gets to hold him, I'm there just. tickled, just chuckling, just so excited, just getting to meet Langston. The dream is complete. The dream is here, at least, right? This second beautiful blessing from God is here. And so they take us back to recovery, which is normal and Caesarian. And Kira is resting. Langston is in the little toaster incubator thing I'm just sitting there just soaking it all up, right? Everything we've talked about everything we planned for it's finally here ⁓ so ⁓ know as Kira's are sitting there resting Langston's taking a nap and I'm just sitting there just just just just like just watching both of them just and just with so much gratitude and just ⁓ just full of joy and as I'm watching Kira rest I looked down and I began to see blood coming from her Foley capitar. Keep in mind this is around four o'clock, right? It's about two hours after. It's about two hours, right? And I was of course alarmed and so I brought it to the attention of the doctors and the nurses at Cedars. They came in, they examined Kira physically, they took her vitals. ⁓ and they ordered blood work and importantly they ordered a CT scan that's supposed to be performed STAT. And for everybody that's listening, STAT means like right now. And so I'm thinking. In my mind, I'm concerned, but I'm thinking my wife is healthy, my baby is healthy, and we're at Cedars-Sinai. They're on it. They're on it. Yeah. And so, ⁓ it's around four o'clock, so five o'clock comes, so by this time, her blood work has come back, it's showing that all of her blood levels are abnormally low, she's sensitive to the touch, but no CT scan. And I'm asking, hey guys, where's the CT scan? They're saying, ⁓ it's coming, it's coming. Six o'clock comes. no CT scan, and I'm continuing to ask, hey, where's the CT scan? They're saying, ⁓ we'll see, we'll check, and nothing. So seven o'clock, I'm still asking more more adamantly, and by this time, Kira's shivering just uncontrollably, right? Because she's losing so much blood. ⁓ And it's important to understand, I'll kind of just share this here, that when we got the medical records back, What they showed is that they indicated that Kira was classified as a surgical emergency at 6 44 p.m. Seven o'clock has come, nobody's done anything. Not only have they not taken her back for surgery, they haven't even taken her back for that CT scan that was ordered closer to five o'clock. Seven o'clock, eight o'clock. This game of dismissal, denial, and deprioritization of Kira's condition just continues to escalate. And I'm continuing to ask. try and get answers and they just give me the run around and say, oh, we may have to take her back to surgery. And then somebody else would come in and say something completely different. And there'd be conflicting things and I'd ask to speak to a supervisor. Supervisor would never come. Then another thing that you have to keep in mind about this is that this is also a teaching hospital. So then there was increased confusion because... and also lack of just humanity and empathy because then what happened is they would march in this group of people in white coats with clipboards and just start talking about Kira like she was an exhibit. had no clue that these are just residents and they're just coming in to observe and they're saying, look, she's tachycardic, this is her this, she's in distress, it's that and the third and they're talking about her as if I'm not even here. I'm saying, hey, because I don't even know who you are, hey, they were supposed to come for a CT scan, let's take her after surgery and they're like, oh, I don't know. I'll see what I can do. And they disappear and never come back. Right? Eight o'clock, I'm advocating. I'm trying to get answers. Nothing. Nine o'clock. So by nine o'clock, the only thing they've done at this time is give Kira IV fluids. Right? And around nine o'clock, and I know that you've heard me tell this part of the story before, ⁓ a nurse came in to change Kira's IV fluids ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ Instinctually, I followed her out of the room and I pulled her to the side and I just grabbed her by both of her hands. I looked her deep in her eyes and said, look, my wife is not doing well. They said that they were gonna take her back for a CT scan. Nobody has come. They said that they might take her back for surgery. Nobody's doing anything. Can you please just help us, please? At which point this woman snatched her hands away from me and she looked me right back in my eyes and she said something to me that haunts me to this day. She said, sir, your wife just isn't a priority right now. Right? And I just remember being like, what? I remember the first time I heard you tell that part of the story and I was just in shock. Just in shock at the, she said so much. Right? By saying that. And. so ⁓ o'clock, 10 o'clock, ⁓ still there, her condition getting worse and I'm trying to get answers, so 11 o'clock, Kira's still there, ⁓ nobody's doing anything. ⁓ It until after midnight they finally made the decision to take Kira back to surgery, after me begging and pleading for them to do something. And so by this time, Kira is extremely weak, she's in a lot of pain, but she's conscious of everything that's going on. I'm tired, I'm frustrated, I'm angry, but part of me is relieved because they're finally doing something, right? Sorry. And so they mobilize Kira and they have her in the bed and I'm walking by her bedside, I'm holding her hand and I'm just doing my best to just do the thing that I. thought I was supposed to do as a husband, just tell her everything's gonna be okay. And once again, we're talking about a woman that was fearless. Like she went skydiving, like some people go for jogs. And you know, as we're walking to this operating room, they're taking her back for this second surgery, you know, she said something to me that I had never heard her say, and she said, baby, I'm scared, I'm scared. And I remember just telling her everything's gonna be okay. And then we talk about kind of the levels of failure. There were so many ways that Kira was failed that afternoon over that course of more than 10 hours. But like, feel like the greatest failure is like this lack of fundamental human decency. Dr. Naim, who had been responsible for the delivery, ⁓ and we'll get back to that, he overheard Kira expressing her fears and he said something once again that still haunts me. He said, It's not a big deal. Sometimes these things happen. I'm go back into the same incision I made for the cesarean. I'm gonna find out what's going on. I'm gonna fix it and she'll be back in 15 minutes. Right? She'll be back in 15 minutes. And so finally we get to the end of this long corridor and the doors of the operating room open and they close behind her. When they took Kira back into the operating room and they opened her up, there were three liters of blood on her abdomen. And when they opened her up, her heart stopped immediately. She coded. They worked on her for some time, but they were unable to save her. And so when those doors closed behind my wife, was the last time I saw her alive. you know, for me, ⁓ there's many things that I've learned about the birthing process on this journey ⁓ that I had no clue about. when I walked in that hospital afternoon. So I'm always transparent about the fact that when I walked into Cedar Sinai that afternoon, the thought that Kira would not walk out to raise her voice, it never crossed my mind. ⁓ But as the days turned into weeks and I was trying so desperately to put my life back together, I began to hear these other stories of other families that had experienced horrific birthing experiences, other women and mothers that had experienced obstetric violence and had had what we refer to as near-miss experiences. ⁓ And then tragically, I began to hear these stories of other mothers that had lost their life and made that ultimate sacrifice just trying to give the gift of life. And at first I really thought, Merelise that this was people's way of trying to kind of support me in my grief. That's why all these stories are flowing in my direction. But the more I was hearing these stories, the more I'm thinking to myself that something's just not right. Because I truly thought that Cura was an anomaly. I'm like a woman that's healthy, has access to care, goes one of the, but supposed to be one of the best hospitals in the country and doesn't walk out, this has to be a freak occurrence. But. ⁓ That's when I began to do the research for myself and I came to find out what I'm sure a lot of your listeners understand and if you don't understand, you're gonna understand by the time you get done with this episode is that we're in the midst of maternal mortality crisis right here in this country that's shameful. Not only are we the most dangerous country in the industrialized world to give birth in, we're all simultaneously the most expensive. And on top of that, African American mothers are dying four to five times as often as Caucasian mothers. ⁓ And there's so many statistics and the one that I'll share that drives us is that the CDC has determined that 84 % of these deaths are considered preventable. That means four out of every five moms that were losing should be here. They should be here at the first day of kindergarten. They should be screaming at soccer games on Saturday mornings. They should be at graduation. and dancing at weddings and they deserve to grow old and be grandmothers and they're being taken from us. And so the statistics only tell one part of the story. And this is what I always say is that the data is important, but there's no statistical, I want people to understand is that these mothers that we're losing are so much more than statistics. ⁓ They are a big deal. They're a Contrary to what that doctor. They're a big deal and you know, there's no statistic that can try and quantify what it's like to tell an 18 month old son that his mom's not coming home. Or you know, Langston will be 10 years old in a couple of weeks. And there's no. algorithm that can try and compute like how hard it is to explain to a son that will never know his mom just how amazing she is. And so we have work to do. And I wouldn't be having this conversation with you. I wouldn't ⁓ be so committed to this if I didn't believe with every fiber in my being that we can fix this. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm sure it never gets easier to relive it. I'm so grateful that you are driven by something so deep ⁓ because you're right. is something we can fix and you always say it is. It's like our dirty little secret. Yes. And it's, don't understand why everyone isn't shouting from the rooftops about it. I do not understand. there's something else I've heard you say that really, really, really resonated with me. It's not about being afraid, it's about being informed. Yes, that's so true. And so that's, think that's, for me, I just want to thank you because you're right, this has been America's dirty little secret for so long. And you know, when you and I spoke before, one of the things that we talked about, with this platform is being able to inform and empower people without making them fearful, right? Because we want people to understand, well, Kira's story is tragic and it's sad, but it could have been, it's avoidable. And so the best thing that we can do is to share these stories, not to scare people, but to inform them and help them understand the more that we can have these conversations in safe, transparent places like this. the more people can understand how they can learn from other people's experiences, right? Which is so important too, because it's just as important for people to understand Kira's birth story as it is to understand people that have unicorn births, that have amazing birthing experiences, that are pain free and supported because we have to uplift the providers that are meeting people and providing excellent informed care with love and compassion, we have to be as adamant about that as we are holding accountables, holding providers accountable that are falling short. So that's why this podcast, why this platform, why this community that you're building is so critically important. Yeah. Yeah. You you mentioned that. Kira's death was avoidable. Yeah. And hindsight, like what could have been done differently in her situation? So I think the biggest thing, there's so many layers and this is a whole nother multi ⁓ episode piece. So there are the technical things and the procedural things that went wrong ⁓ that are still beyond comprehension. So to give you an idea, ⁓ what we found out, after we got the autopsy back and the California Medical Board did their investigation. And I don't know if you know all of this, Mary Lee, so kind of brace yourself for what I'm about to share. So. In the instance of a mother who is going in for a routine cesarean, where the baby's not in distress, the mother's not in distress, the cut time, or the time from the incision to when the baby is actually born should be 12 to 15 minutes, right? Cutting through the layers of skin into the uterus, removing the baby. Baby's healthy, right? In a situation like Kira's where she had had a previous cesarean, you should add another five to eight, five to 10 minutes to that process because you have to go through the scar tissue and do the same process. Would you like to take a guess? So now we're in the 20 minute ballpark range. Would you like to take a guess at how long Langston's delivery took? Or the cut time on Langston's delivery was? can't decide if it'd be worse for it to be shorter or longer. a guess. and everybody listening out there, can take a guess too. Seven minutes. Less than two minutes. Oh God. Less than two minutes. And what I've learned now is that's what we call slash and dash. And in the process of his haste and rushing, he lacerated Kira's bladder. So now, let's go back to this whole thing that we laid the foundation for at the beginning of this story, this relationship between Dr. Naim and Dr. Kashanchi So this is exclusive things that you're only gonna hear on the Arrivals podcast. I don't share this part of the story with everybody and I haven't shared this a lot publicly. So, what the other thing that we learned about this correlation between these two doctors, this doctor who we trusted and this doctor who we had never laid eyes on before. The reason that the second doctor was brought in, this is we learned through the California Medical Board's investigation, is that our primary doctor who recommended the cesarean no longer even performs cesareans because he has back issues that affect his fine motor skills. And he never disclosed that to us. He has a racket where he kicks all of his cesareans to Dr. Naim. Right? Which once again, who we never had the opportunity to do our research, our due diligence on, but once again, when the California Medical Board did their due diligence, they found out that he was responsible for six near-miss deaths, three of which had taken place within three months of Kira's death. He still had his license with the California Medical Board, and he still had his credentials at Cedars-Sinai. Right, and so this is where we have to talk about levels of transparency and what's failed. So once again, even with all this, even with the haste, even with him rushing the cesarean, even with him lacerating Kira's bladder, it didn't have to be fatal. Hospitals have in place what is called postpartum hemorrhage protocols. there's something called AIM and they've developed these postpartum hemorrhage bundles and that's something that you may want to, if you're looking to evaluate a hospital, you want to ask about whether your hospital has opted into the AIM. postpartum bundles, right? So they have a postpartum bundle for cardiomyopathy issues, they have one for postpartum hemorrhage, they have one ⁓ also for postpartum depression. So there's this policy of procedures and tools, ⁓ in the instance of postpartum hemorrhage, a whole set of a kit. ⁓ hospitals have to opt into this program, right? Which means they have these additional tools and resources available ⁓ their disposal, ⁓ ⁓ Cedars-Sinai was an AIM participating hospital that had these resources. The team that was responsible for Cura just chose not to use them. And so this is how we talk about, when people talk about the role that bias implicit or otherwise plays in birth, people think that racism or bias shows up. in very overt ways, like racial slurs or super condescending behavior, but often time bias shows up in microaggressions or delays in care that people wouldn't delay for other people. And we have to have a transparent conversation because I there's a lot of people that are having a lot of questions when they're hearing this conversation. And... I'm also very transparent about the fact that if Kira was Caucasian, she would be here. And I think that when we talk about the role, not in all instances, but what we often see is that oftentimes when mothers are coming into these situations, it's not their race, but it's racism that is a contributing factor because there's no reason that if Kira had been taken back. to surgery at 644. These aren't things that are conjectured. This isn't my speculation. This is what Cedars-Sinai medical records are telling me. So they let her just deteriorate unnecessarily for almost five more hours. And so like I said, there's so many issues and so many different things that went wrong that didn't have to. And there were so many opportunities for the hospital, for everybody to intervene. And I think that as painful as it is, Kira's story has become such an alarming example of what preventable maternal deaths look like. Where a woman was healthy, where women had access to care, a woman had done everything right, who had sought out. intelligent, she has a support system. Right? Yeah. And had good insurance, had a husband that was there that never left her bedside and it wasn't enough. And so the thing for me is while it hurts, Every time I tell a story, but the thing that keeps me up at night is if. it wasn't enough for Kira, what does that mean for families that don't have all those things working on their behalf? And so we have work to do. And like I said, what I want people to understand is we kind of set the groundwork for the rest of this conversation. know that Kira's story is hard to hear. I know that the stories of these other families are heartbreaking. I know that you may know somebody in your life who has a horrific birthing experience, right? But these things are fixable. It's gonna take a lot of work. That's the good news, right? Like I said before, I would not be here if I didn't believe that we could fix this. And that's why I spend far more energy on trying to fix it than I do just talking about what happened. Yeah, what are some ways that you're working to fix Yeah, so great question. know, I never saw this as the path for my life. ⁓ But when this happened, I kind of felt like, and I really came to learn so much about this, I was just floored by a couple things. One, how is this happening? Two, how is this America's dirty little secret? And three, how is it that not everybody is outraged? Yeah. And so I felt like I had to do something. felt like I owed it to Kira. I felt like I owed it to my boys to just try and do something. so I shared Kira's story publicly for the first time the Friday before Mother's Day in 2017. So a little bit over a year after her passing, not knowing what to expect, not knowing what impact would look like, but just hoping that by raising awareness about what happened to Kira that maybe that would spark a conversation. Naively thinking that I would go back to being, you know, a dad trying to raise these two kids in obscurity, but Kira and the universe had very different plans. And so Kira's story along with the story of so many other mothers have become the catalyst for what I call the maternal health revolution. And so we founded For Cure For Moms, which is a non-profit organization. with one very clear mission, not only to pay honor to Kira, but to every other mother that has made that ultimate sacrifice. And our goal is to not just improve maternal health outcomes, but to eradicate the maternal mortality crisis. So we approach this work by three very distinct. kind of organizational pillars is education, advocacy, and legislation. So from an education standpoint, we work to empower families with the tools and resources they need to not just survive birth, but to thrive, right? Survival shouldn't be the benchmark. It's how do we thrive and what information do we need to make sure that that's possible? We educate providers. ⁓ I do a lot of training on centering humanity. empathy and compassion and care, building patient trust, and then also implicit bias training. And so with our training, when I come into hospitals, I don't come over from a theoretical standpoint, like a lot of folks do, and that's no knock, but I come from an experiential standpoint. I'm not here to tell you what I think, I'm here to tell you what I know. And if we don't address these biases and these isms, recognizing that we're all human, right? But... you are held to a higher standard because people are trusting you with what's most precious in their life. ⁓ And so because I come from an experiential standpoint, what I found is that people... are more likely to open up their hearts and receive in a way that's like, oh wow, versus somebody that's just theorizing and beating them up about how they're, you know, how they have all these isms. that's one. From an advocacy standpoint, we also work very hard to center the lived experience and support other families that have lost moms. And so we have programs like our maternal mortality response team that supports families anywhere in the country that have lost moms within 72 hours. So if a mother's lost, we mobilize resources like wipers, wipes, formula, mental health support services, legal services if needed. ⁓ And then just kind of try and wrap our arms around them with community. ⁓ then lastly, legislation. So we work on both the state and federal level ⁓ implement legislation that just will improve the state of maternal health. And so we're working in almost all 50 states on legislation kind of. ⁓ Curated specifically for the challenge in the state and on the federal level. We're working We have a package of bills that we just introduced to yesterday. Gee whiz Day before yesterday, right two days ago. I was in Washington DC. This week is a blurb. I apologize. Called the mom the bus and so it's a comprehensive set of 14 pieces of legislation addressing all of the clinical and non-clinical challenges facing maternal health in our country. And so we're really proud of that. Within that package of bills is the Cure Johnson Act. And so for those of you all who watching, call, text your senator, your congressman, demand that they support the mom on the bus. It's a bipartisan piece of legislation. We're really proud of that. And we also fight for other things that, compliments, we fight for paid leave for all, right? We're very proud that also this week, Virginia passed paid leave. Huge. It's amazing. Huge. so another big part of this, and I know I'm putting a on the table, but there's a lot of work to be done, is a really important part of our theory of change, which is another thing you and I have talked about a lot, is the role that fathers and non-birthing parents can play. And what we found is that fathers want to be involved, we just don't necessarily know the playbook or how we can be our best selves or advocate and support our family. And so we developed something called Four Cure Four Dads, which exists in two very distinct ways. We have an online app that's free to everybody. then we have in-person convenings and we have, you know, all types of tools. And so ⁓ the that we found when we doing our focus groups is that ⁓ What we know is that guys are simple, right? And you can try and explain to them things about advocacy and all of a sudden third. But even like Chris and I were joking and kind of reminiscing on football days, right? If you put things in sports analogies, guys get it. Right? Guys get it they get it quickly. It's like, ⁓ we want you to advocate. You know what? Dad, we want you to the fullback. Be the fullback. You block for her, you take on the stress, you take on the finer stuff, you anticipate what's coming, you knock it out of the way so you can clear a path for her to have a safe, healthy pregnancy. It's simple. a doula? It's a coach. It's a coach. Yeah. It's a coach. And so we put these things and they see it so clearly and it resonates with them. ⁓ Is it a little cheesy? Yeah, but it's simple. And it doesn't matter if you have a triple doctorate or you have, you know, or you didn't make it past the sixth grade, right? It's something that everybody can pick up, everybody can run with. so that's another way that we really feel that we can drastically improve maternal health outcomes quickly. So it's a lot of work, but we are proud of the progress we've made and really committed. We have a very aggressive goal of zero preventable deaths from pregnancy and pregnancy related causes by the year 2030. It's so crazy that it even has to be a goal. Yeah. It's so crazy. Yeah. But here's the thing, right? You're right, it is crazy that it has to be a goal, but the other thing is too, and the reason why I kind of jumped out there with that bold statement, is that there has to be a north star that we're working towards. Because if not, we'll just continue to, what I call, around and admire the problem. And people will do more studies. We know what's going on, we know who's getting it right, we know what we need to do, it's just about us using our collective power and influence to put the pressure on the private sector to put the pressure on our elected officials. Like I said, when we talk about doulas, right? Huge fan, huge proponent of doulas. People ask, what I've done differently, what have brought in a doula? Right? I actually just had a friend the other day. I'd love to kind of double down on that. had a friend the other day who asked me if I thought she should have a doula if she had a planned C-section. And I said, yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. This is perfect. If you have somebody that you feel strongly about, if you have the resources, yes. I think that the doula, A doula is, it is a great investment. It is, the peace of mind is worth it. Having an extra advocate, having somebody that will be there to make sure that you have a second set of eyes and ears. Well, and what Chris and I always talked about, because I didn't have a doula with my first, but then we did with my second. Yeah. And. You know, as wonderful as Chris, always joke he was kind of my doula with our first birth and he was great, did a great job, no complaints. But I always like say, we'd only witnessed one birth by the time I was getting ready to give birth to myself a baby. And so while he was a wonderful advocate for me and learned all the things and da da, he'd only seen one birth. His one case study. Right, one case study. And why would we not want someone who is there, who's seen as many births as this OB or midwife has, but is here just for me and the baby. that is their only reason for being in that room. They don't have any other patients they're seeing that day. Their one goal is to make sure that mom and baby are healthy and happy by the end of that day. You know why? Like, yeah, it's a no brainer. That should be part of healthcare, right? I so and here's the thing right there's there's also we have to have kind of transparent conversations about the state of birth in this country and Recognize the fact that there is a lot of tribalism in in in birthing and so, know oftentimes the doulas don't see eye to eye with the OB's and the ⁓ You know, the OB's think that doulas are witchcraft right and the midwives kind of get stuck in the middle but I'm a big proponent of I believe that every family in this country should have... the safe, dignified birthing experience of their choice. Right? If you want to have a doula and you want to give birth in your living room and you're not a high risk pregnancy and that's what you feel is best for you, then you should have that. If you want it to be with a midwife, if you want it to be in a hospital with all the fluorescent lights and the button to push every time you feel pain and that's what you want, you should have it and guess what? It should be paid for. Right? And I think another thing that I'm really a big advocate of Is what we call an integrated model of care, right? So people also feel like they have to make this choice between one or the other But you can have OB that works hand-in-hand with your doula, right? And so these are also important questions to ask when you're trying to figure out your team right or would they be open to working with a? you know, a doula, or if you have, or if you start with your doula, do you have an OB that you like working with? That is compassion. That is open-minded. And so these are the things that we can find because it's out there. We just have to understand what questions to ask and where to find those wonderful providers. Yes. I mean, so many things to unpack there, but yes to all of that. And I think like for whatever reason, I don't know when this started, But at some point, we as women ⁓ and fathers as well, ⁓ we're just told, the doctor, deliver the baby the hospital that's it, end of And I usually say, I don't think it's malicious. In Kira's case, I don't, it's different. ⁓ But I do think normally doctors... are not malicious in the lack of information they provide. I think that's true. They're trained a certain way. And so it just has to be on us as mothers, as fathers, as friends of birthing people to ask more questions, to do more, to... take more ownership in this incredible life-changing experience. And I'm so glad that you brought that up, right, because I have to say this, because people hear me talk and they make presumptions about the way that I feel towards all doctors or all obstetricians. And I have to be really clear that I'm not anti-doctor. I'm anti-negligent doctor. I'm anti-racist doctor. I'm anti-biased doctor, right? But I am clear that the majority of medical professionals that have chosen this path are wonderful people that have committed their lives to improving the lives of their patients. However, what we cannot ignore is the outliers that don't operate like that. They carry certain isms or preconceived notions to the birth. Or there sometimes is just a human factor that life comes into situations that require a certain level of compassion, empathy, or connectivity that somebody may just not be capable of delivering right then, right? The other piece of this too that we have to have a candid conversation about is that there are a lot of perverse incentives in healthcare, particularly in birthing. And what I mean by that is, oftentimes what we see is literally, I think it's cesareans and the removal of tonsils are the most common surgery in the United States. Right? Think about that. The cesarean is the most common surgical procedure in the United States. So, if you look at the cesarean rate, if you look at a chart of the cesarean rate in the United States over the past 60 years, right? If you lay the maternal mortality rate on top of it, it mirrors it almost identically. Now let me be clear. Sometimes cesareans are life-saving and they are very very very necessary even ⁓ Plan cesareans are the best thing for that family, but what we also have to understand is that There is an incentive oftentimes If we look at the bottom line with the cesarean delivery, a doctor in hospital can get a woman out in a fraction of the time and charge her three to four times as much. And every one of those interventions in her birth becomes a line item on her bill. So the pitocin, the epidural, all these things that they are doing to intervene and oftentimes we see a domino effect. So it's you know what, you're not dilating, we're gonna give you this to help you dilate. ⁓ Now guess what? That made the baby's heart rate drop, so now we're going to have to do a cesarean. They become cascading effects. ⁓ And so we just have to be informed. That's why it's also important to have a doula there, or at least an advocate in your family that understands your birthing preferences and understands what questions to ask. And the reason that I say that is that... why we want to make sure that fathers and families are informed because it's unreasonable to expect a mother to give birth and advocate for herself at the same time. Right? I hear this conversation where you have to advocate for yourself. Are you kidding me? Do you know what it feels like? I don't know, but I know enough to know that that's an unreasonable expectation. And so to have somebody there that even has the wherewithal to ask, well, what happens if we just wait? What happens if we just wait? What are the benefits? What are the potential outcomes? just understanding the simple principle of informed consent. Understanding that you have the right to ask these questions. sometimes we just, doctors, instead of giving you informed consent, they give you statements or leading things. We're going to do a cesarean now. We're going to do this now versus like, wait, instead of presenting options and allowing you all to work in a collaborative fashion to make a decision that you feel is best. Yes, all of that. Yeah. I actually, in a moment of clarity, also thanks to Chris being a very involved birth partner in my first birth, we did that. They were going to take me to a C-section and I had planned to have as low intervention of a vaginal birth as I could. And the baby's heart rate was all over the place. we said, what if we wait? What if we wait? and they were literally preparing, they're like, this is happening, we're gonna take you back, and we were like, what if we wait? And then lo and behold, all of a sudden, there were other options. But I think 99 % of women in my situation would have said, okay. It's so emotionally charged, there's so many factors, and we are so trusting, right? But at end of the day, we cannot negate the fact, and this is not passing blame, but facts are facts, is that you... birthing people are commodities and if we can get the highest possible value from this person's birthing experience, right? And we also have to be transparent about the fact when you set fit in that hospital, those providers, those admins know exactly what your insurance is going to pay for. I never thought about that, yeah. Right? Yeah. And so, There are, and once again, this is not me trying to frame this, is that everybody is malicious, right? But I've had so many heartbreaking realizations along this journey. I give you another example of just how things become staggeringly just. awakening and heartbreaking, would never forget I was invited to join the advisory board for this tech startup. And we were in a meeting and they were talking about a go-to-market strategy for this product. And this product ⁓ would do a lot of miraculous things, including reduce the number of days in the NICU for babies. It would tap in, it would do things with data, and then they would be able to really drastically reduce the number of NICU stays. And so I start thinking, ⁓ man, this is easy. about what the go-to-market strategy is. And I started talking about, have we, you're gonna save all this money, ⁓ my gosh. And I started talking, thinking about all these relationships with healthcare systems that I had developed through consulting or speaking or being brought in across. And I was like, I'll start reaching out to these hospitals. ⁓ You know, they're CFOs, they're Chief Financial Officer, and talking about the solution I have. And I kind of put that on the table and everybody got quiet. And I was like, what? And they kind of looked around the table at each other. like as if to like, well, who's gonna tell him? And then the president of the company said, Charles, that strategy won't work. And I said, why? I said, because, this is what they said to me, they broke my heart. I said, because hospitals count on having a certain amount of million dollar babies every year in the NICU. And that... They utilize the NICU as a huge profit center because they know how expensive it is for these babies to stay in the hospital. And they're not going to be thrilled about reducing the number of days that those babies are in the NICU. What? ⁓ What? You're telling me that we have a solution that could cut. the number of days that the average baby is staying by half and maybe sometimes to a third, and they're not even gonna hear it because it's going to affect this profit center. So there's so many things that I have just had to come face to face with and that's just one of them, right? And like I said, that's not to say that everything is broken, but we have to be able to understand the reality that we're facing and how to navigate it. Again, it goes back to being informed, not being fearful. Yes. Being informed. Yes, absolutely. ⁓ And I just keep going back to that and anchoring myself there. You mentioned a few minutes ago, too, there are places that are doing it right. Yeah. What are some countries that are doing it right and what are they doing right? Yeah. So what's interesting is that in a lot of the places in the world where maternal health outcomes are the best, maternal health and labor and delivery is not centered around obstetrical obstetricians, it's centered around midwifery. ⁓ And midwives' primary focus is to allow the body to do what it does naturally. Versus and then have an OB to intervene when and if it's necessary versus the opposite in the United States where it's primarily pushed in front of an OB who is trained to do surgery. Yeah, they're surgeons. They're right and you know we kind of also the thing that's different about what happens in United States is that Pregnancy and labor is treated almost like a sickness or an illness right versus a natural occurrence and so those are some things so if we look at We look at Europe, we even look at, you there's so many places in the world, it's safer to give birth in Haiti, Sub-Saharan Africa, a lot of third world countries than it is statistically here in the United States. ⁓ But like I said, Europe is doing it right. There's a statistic that shows, and I apologize because I don't have. the data in front of me, but between 2000 and 2017, the maternal mortality rate in Europe dropped by, I think, 53 % and it rose by 52 % in the United States during the same timeframe. Right, like, and so that's what I mean. So the tough part to swallow is that that's happening. The good news is we can point to examples. It's going well in Canada, right? It's going well throughout Europe. It's going well, you know, ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ in the Middle East. And once again, we have to think about too that midwifery is the world's oldest profession. There's other things that people would like to say is the world's oldest profession, right? But midwifery is the world's oldest profession women have been bringing, have been giving life for a long, long time and I think that there is a happy medium between allowing and leading with centering women's bodies and letting them progress and all the modern technological advances that we have, right? I really do believe that if we can strike that right balance ⁓ and people can show informed that preventable deaths ⁓ from pregnancy-related causes can a thing of the past. Yeah. You know, a lot of people always, I think I hear people say often, thank God for modern medicine. Yes. Yes, thank God for modern medicine, thank God for C-sections, and we don't need to be giving as many or having as many C-sections as we are. It's not an either or. You know, it's like... I think a lot of times, like you said, might think you're anti-OB. Yeah. And that's not it. It's just, you know, as per most things in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle. It's somewhere in the middle. And like I said, the end of the day, too, like I'm still learning. I'm fortunate enough to have met a lot of amazing people on this journey that have shared with me their approach, that shared with me their philosophy. And I'm fortunate enough that I have a lot of amazing OBS that, you know, have mentored me, have poured into me to make sure that I understand the challenges that they show up to. And then sometimes we have to talk about the system, the system. And that's another piece too. like I said, I don't wanna keep on just harping on the sky falling, but the reality is that oftentimes it is a challenge of that, going back to what I was saying about the dollars and cents of it all, is that there is a real issue around profits over patients. And because that is the way that some of these systems are structured, it's hard for some of these OBs, even the best intending ones, to show up and just really do the best they can for their patients. Yeah. I hate that this is the work that do, but... I'm so thankful that you're doing it and you, ⁓ you know, I hate that this was the path that was created for you, but you are so incredible at it. Thank you so much. And we are lucky to have you as women and as mothers and. you. Yeah. The honor honestly, that means so much and the honor really is all mine. And, you know, there's so many things about my life that I wish were different. But this ⁓ has allowed me to ⁓ purpose, ⁓ a lot of those ⁓ of pain and anger, regret ⁓ something that I hope will ⁓ be beautiful, something that I... ⁓ ⁓ hope Kira's proud of and create a legacy that my boys are ultimately proud of. I know she's proud of you. How could she not be? Well, I always like to end by asking my guests to describe birth in three words, whatever comes to mind, unfiltered. Wow, man, that's tough for me. I think that... Joy, hope, and love is how I would describe it. Those are three words that really come to mind. think that just the joy of it all is what I really want to make sure that every family gets to experience. ⁓ I'm hopeful ⁓ ⁓ are working towards ⁓ time and a place where... ⁓ stories like Kira are a thing of the past. And it's just love, right? It is just the purest manifestation of love, magical. I just really hope that a safe, beautiful birthing experience is something that everybody gets the chance to enjoy. Yeah. From the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for spending this time with me. You've been listening to the Arrivals podcast. Until next time. Thank you.