Latest / UK Column Radio / Weekly UKC Banter Episode 11

Transcript

Weekly UKC Banter Episode 11 · UK Column Radio

0:38
Nice to be back hours away in the desert, in the in Abu Dhabi,
0:43
in Dubai and suddenly realized that all this talk of global
0:48
warming that comes out of the UK, the BBC has no idea.
0:53
I'm going to disagree with you, Jeremy.
0:54
I'm going to say the BBC knows exactly what they're talking
0:57
about when they, when they apply the 26° is, is life threatening
1:02
as, as does the government and the the Health Security Agency
1:08
or whatever they're called that you know, it's just, it's just
1:11
incredible how they push this, this narrative and even more
1:16
incredible how people believe it in many cases.
1:20
So I would say that that it's not the BBC that we need to be
1:24
considering here. It's it's people again.
1:27
And and whether whether we're prepared to accept the what is
1:34
normal being dressed up as being abnormal in some way.
1:38
I said Middle East. I am going to get fired shots at
1:43
by some folks saying that the Gulf states are not Middle East
1:48
and that it's they are actually, what did you call it, Southwest
1:51
Asia? Well, not necessarily because,
1:54
because are you talking about Lebanon OR are you talking about
1:57
the Gulf states or which? States yeah.
2:00
Yeah, sorry, Charles, I interrupted.
2:04
No, no, I, I, I I was just wondering whether we were going
2:07
to start hair splitting this early on in the session.
2:10
But. But perhaps we are What?
2:13
Why not? Frankly, you know, it's the end
2:16
of the week. Yeah.
2:18
I think it's, it's wonderful to hear a tale of that and to, to
2:23
discover that you have come back safely and you didn't drop into
2:27
a heap on the pavement and indeed presumed you didn't see
2:30
anybody else melting in the heat.
2:32
I think the other, the other thing on top of the being told
2:36
that 26° is a heat wave or whatever we're supposed to
2:41
believe these days. I mean, it is quite astonishing
2:44
that people do do it. But it, but it is an observable
2:47
thing because I think some people's mobile telephones tell
2:51
them what the weather is doing where they are.
2:56
They will look at it and say, oh, it's, you know, whatever it
3:00
is, it's raining or it's whatever, rather than either
3:03
going outside and seeing what it is or looking out of the window.
3:07
And, and, and incredibly, in this age, often the telephone is
3:12
perceived as being correct. Rather.
3:14
Than that's not what you observe.
3:16
That's not the bit that cracks me up the most.
3:19
What cracks me up the most are the people who will who have
3:22
been told that 26° is a heat wave and so they will complain
3:28
bitterly about how hot it is and how they're so tired because of
3:33
the heat and all this kind of stuff.
3:35
While if while they're writing out the cheque for three grand
3:38
to go to Turkey for two weeks holiday in 50°.
3:41
It's amazing. How your own perceptions of the
3:45
world change when you go somewhere, but it's this
3:48
disconnect between reality and what people perceive as reality.
3:51
Well, I think not so much perceived, but but are told and,
3:56
and that is what creates what we then interpret as a perception.
4:01
I mean, you know, it's, it's the same as being told by the
4:04
weather forecast that 26° is near fatal heat, when actually
4:08
it's just a sort of warmish day. And it's and I think it's
4:12
exactly the same with the there's a Islamic population in
4:15
this country. They are all death mongerers and
4:18
they kill each other and us all the time.
4:21
And then, and then you go there and you look and you see that
4:24
that is not the case. And, and, and I would, I, I
4:27
would absolutely echo what you say.
4:30
I, I, I have been very lucky to travel and to work in a lot of
4:35
different places in a lot of parts of the world.
4:37
And I, I found it to be a totally enriching experience.
4:43
And I don't mean that to sound trite in the sort of, oh, you
4:45
know, I just love all the people that I encountered and this,
4:48
that and the other. What I mean is that one's
4:51
character and perspective and intellectual concept of the
4:57
world around you is is only enhanced by doing so in the same
5:01
way that if you're going to buy a new pair of shoes, it's worth
5:05
trying on more than one pair because you then have a frame of
5:08
reference. And I think that the, that that
5:10
rule can be applied to absolutely everything, but
5:13
absolutely in terms of travel, experiencing other people,
5:17
experiencing other cultures. And I'm not, you know, that's,
5:19
that's not exclusive to other parts of the world.
5:21
I mean, let's face it, you know, germ by landmass, you live in a
5:24
country that is far, far bigger than the United Kingdom.
5:27
And yet in terms of population density, of course, the story is
5:30
different above the equator this side.
5:33
And yet, you know, travelling all over the UK is always worth
5:37
it because you will see and you will learn.
5:39
And it, it, it, it does just qualify the information that
5:43
you've been presented about a particular place.
5:46
And, and nowhere have, well, certainly within the last 25 to
5:51
30 years in particular, has that been more acutely felt than the,
5:55
the exactly like you say, the, the construct of Islam as a
5:59
threat either here or even in the countries where it's
6:03
practiced as the state religion or, or, or sort of de facto
6:08
state religion. And my experience is having
6:11
travelled and worked in certainly well, well over 15
6:19
countries that would fall into that category.
6:21
I have never ever encountered anything that corresponds to the
6:25
scaremongering. I have only experienced the
6:27
exact opposite. And I should say qualities that
6:33
far outstrip the average experience that one has in the
6:37
United Kingdom these days. And I'm not, that's not a, a,
6:41
you know, I've just had it with Brits.
6:42
They're all, they're all useless.
6:44
This, that and the other. That's not what I'm saying.
6:46
But I, I don't live in Plymouth, but I come here regularly.
6:50
Every time I go out on the street, I say good morning, good
6:53
afternoon, whatever it is to people, exactly like I would in
6:56
a foreign country. In another country, I will
6:59
always be replied to. In actual fact, probably I would
7:01
have been greeted first. Very seldom do I get an
7:05
acknowledgement here and and very, very seldom from somebody
7:10
under the age of 50. Usually the sort of hierarchies
7:14
you'll get, you know, people will actually look away if
7:17
they're younger and that the elderly generation tend to smile
7:22
and greet you sincerely. And you know, I don't do it just
7:27
to wind people up. I do it because I mean it.
7:30
I do it because human interaction is what we're all
7:32
about. If if we don't have that, what,
7:33
what, what is the point of any of it?
7:35
So yes, to go back to your original point, to experience
7:41
these cultures, to create or widen the parameters of your own
7:45
frame of reference, I I cannot see any downside to that at all.
7:49
And I'm so glad that you've come back with that, with that
7:51
thought in mind. Charles, just to add a little
7:54
bit to the the greeting each other in passing comment.
7:58
This was something that was absolutely normal in in Northern
8:02
Ireland. I'm back in Northern Ireland at
8:03
the moment for a couple of weeks.
8:04
And you know, if I was cycling along the tow path years ago or,
8:10
or walking along the tow path, you know, or anywhere in the
8:13
mountains, whatever it happened to be, and you came across
8:15
somebody. It was absolutely normal for
8:17
people to greet each other in exactly that way.
8:20
And even though that was sort of ingrained into the, the sort of
8:25
normal normalcy of life in this country, that changed with
8:30
COVID. And it's actually a lot less
8:33
likely that people will, will react in that way now than it
8:38
was in pre 2020. And I think that's, that's the
8:43
case in, in England as well, that, that there's much less
8:47
likelihood of people greeting each other because of, of COVID.
8:51
And so, you know, I, during COVID, when of course, we were
8:56
supposedly only allowed out for exercise and so on, it became a
9:00
almost an active resistance to go for a walk every day.
9:03
And, and certainly, you know, I never wore a mask.
9:06
Many other people didn't wear masks.
9:09
It was generally the non mask wearers that were willing to say
9:11
hello to each other in passing. Others walk to the other side of
9:15
the path. So, so you know, the, the point
9:17
I'm making is part of that is, is something which has been done
9:20
to people and and maybe hasn't been done to people in the same
9:25
way in other countries. Yeah, I totally agree.
9:28
And, and actually just to extend that a tiny bit, you know, it's
9:30
really interesting to hear the Northern Ireland perspective.
9:32
It reminds me of how life is on a motorbike.
9:36
And if you pass another bike in England, you you sort of nod
9:39
your head sideways towards the biker.
9:41
And I was delighted years ago to cross the border and find that
9:45
bikes in Scotland, and I dare say this may be the case in
9:47
Northern Ireland, but you wave at each other and it's, it's a,
9:51
it's a, it might seem like a minor difference, but it's a
9:53
really significant one. And, and, and similarly, riding
9:56
a bicycle in Scotland. I, I've biked the whole way
10:00
through Scotland and England in one go.
10:03
Well, obviously stopping overnight, but, but, but the,
10:06
the same was true there. People, if you, if you bike
10:09
through a village in Scotland, people will actually greet you,
10:13
even if you're on a bicycle and England, pretty much nothing.
10:17
It's a really interesting difference.
10:20
The, the the whole thing about Islam is so sensitive because
10:23
people have been so propagandized into thinking that
10:25
they are the enemy. What you're seeing in in in
10:29
Europe is what my guest, if you not to go Miriam Cherubaiti was
10:32
talking about takfir ISM, which is a politicized version of of,
10:37
of Islam like ISIS and those those extreme groups that are
10:40
they are designed to create all sorts of conflict.
10:44
But if you go into those regions where Islam dominates, it's
10:48
extremely peaceful and you get a very, very different sense of
10:51
reality. So there's a couple of points
10:53
there, Jeremy. The 1st is takfir ISM as you're
10:56
talk, as you're describing it, this is of Wahhabi ISM.
10:59
Effectively it's this is something which is a creation of
11:03
the British deep state. It's as is Muslim Brotherhood,
11:06
as is Al Qaeda with the help of the Americans and so on.
11:12
Extremist Islam is something, I mean, we've been trying to make
11:15
this point many, many times, but the, the extremist Islam is
11:19
something which is, is a creation of geopolitics and a
11:22
creation of particularly the British.
11:26
And so that we've got to see that in that context.
11:31
And you know, one of the, one of the most things, striking things
11:34
that Vanessa said to me because she, as you know, experienced
11:38
the collapse of, of Syria in December.
11:42
And she, I was speaking to her many, many times when the call
11:48
to prayer would be, would be issued.
11:51
And the sound of that in the background was actually
11:57
something quite beautiful. The, the style of the singing
12:01
and so on was something quite beautiful.
12:03
When the extremists moved in, that was changed and it became
12:07
harsh and it became unpleasant and it was actually something
12:10
extremely ugly. And just that, that one small
12:14
change identified that something quite, you know, it it that,
12:20
that was something that was representative of the extremism
12:25
which had moved in almost overnight in her area of, of
12:30
Damascus. And then of course she had to
12:32
leave very, very quickly and through a very dangerous
12:35
situation. But my point is that this is not
12:42
what what what most people perceive as Islam is not Islam.
12:46
It's something, it's a creation. It's something which is beyond,
12:54
you know, the experience of, of most people in these countries
12:58
in that region. My real, I mean, I don't want to
13:02
use the word fear, but my concern, let's say, is that we
13:08
are, we are allowing ourselves to be radicalized in many, many
13:13
ways. And this, this process has been
13:15
going on for a long time. But I suppose the first time
13:17
that we, that we really saw it overtly was with, with Brexit,
13:22
with where, you know, we took an issue.
13:25
When I say we, I mean the British government took an issue
13:28
and the British media took an issue and they managed to split
13:31
the population basically in half and drive people towards the
13:35
absolute extremes of the argument.
13:38
And, and this is, this is happening right across the world
13:40
in many, many area, in many areas, in many regions, the, the
13:45
people are, are being radicalized in many, many ways,
13:50
not just in terms of religion, but also in terms of politics.
13:53
And this is, you know, this is something that we've got to be
13:56
aware of. You know, the UK column is, has
13:59
been trying to highlight for 20 years the psychological, the,
14:04
the use of applied psychology to, to control the minds of, of
14:09
populations with the, the creation of the Mindspace
14:13
document that we've talked about many times, the use of the
14:15
behavioural insights teams and so on.
14:18
This is something which is really fundamental to Western
14:23
society in particular, but not just exclusively Western society
14:27
and it's largely not understood. And of course, if people don't
14:31
understand the processes which are being used, then we can't
14:35
understand why we're coming up with the OR why we're believing
14:39
the things we're believing. And, and we're certainly not
14:41
challenging those beliefs. There is an increasing
14:44
recognition in many parts of the world that have been on the
14:48
receiving end of British and American diplomacy.
14:53
And by that, of course we mean militarization and warfare and
14:57
this kind of stuff. It's, it's it's recognized who
15:00
the aggressors are on this planet.
15:02
You know, we in the UK, our government, the United States
15:06
government, the EU governments are busy saying, oh, put an
15:10
authoritarian Xi Jinping authoritarian.
15:13
That's not how the the rest of the world is viewing Putin or
15:20
she on one hand, but on the other hand, they're absolutely
15:23
recognising the lies that are coming out of the mouths every
15:27
single minute of every single day of British politicians,
15:30
British media, British deep state operatives, think tanks,
15:33
others. They, this, this is something
15:36
which is, has become, I believe, a part of the psyche of most
15:41
ordinary people in these countries, because they've been
15:44
on the receiving end of what we've been giving for so many
15:48
years. And of course they're going to
15:49
start reacting and at some, and it is dangerous because, you
15:53
know, they, they are increasingly the, the majority
15:59
population on the planet. They are increasingly the
16:02
majority economic power on the planet.
16:05
And at some point something's going to come home to roost
16:10
with, with W, There's no question about it.
16:12
We got to grow up and, and recognise that geopolitics is
16:16
not the way to do business, right?
16:18
But our, our entire, our entire societies for the last several
16:22
100 years have been based on the idea of going into countries
16:26
which have a lower techno, military, technological level,
16:31
kicking the crap out of them, digging up their raw materials
16:34
and stealing them. That's, that has been our, our,
16:36
basically our, our way of doing business for, for, you know, 2
16:42
or 300 years. And, and it's not going to work
16:44
anymore because, you know, people are, are demanding the
16:48
right to build a life, a life for themselves, which isn't
16:52
based on slavery and, and poverty.
16:56
So, you know, and they have a right to dig up their own raw
16:59
materials, their own rare earths and, and make their own, build
17:01
their own economies. And, you know, the time of
17:05
raping other countries has to come to an end.
17:07
That's, it's as simple as that for me.
17:09
And, and you know, that begins with us recognising and being
17:15
honest about how we have made our our millions over the years.
17:19
In, in, in so far as truth is concerned, it is very well
17:24
obscured and the target is always people's emotions,
17:29
people's soft spots, weak points.
17:32
And this is the gift of so-called foreign aid and how
17:39
people are prepared. On the one hand, to consider
17:43
that military intervention in a country may not be appropriate
17:47
because the outcomes tend to be unfavourable in that people die
17:52
and continue to die thereafter. Whereas foreign aid sounds
17:57
benevolent, it sounds like it's going to bring about prosperity
18:01
and improved conditions for humanity, when in actual fact
18:07
that is not the case. And it is intentionally there to
18:14
obfuscate the truth, which is that really all it's doing is
18:19
enabling the types of corruptions necessary to carry
18:23
on prosecuting exactly the agenda that Mike describes.
18:27
And there are some very good pieces of literature from, I
18:33
mean, I can think of Africa in particular from Africans writing
18:38
about this very subject and the looting that's conducted under
18:43
the, you know, under the, the blanket of, as I say,
18:47
obfuscation that's thrown over the whole situation by this idea
18:52
that foreign aid is either necessary or desirable or has
18:56
positive outcomes, all of which are, I would say, not true.
19:01
And if a particular nation, country, whatever it is, wants
19:08
to crack on in a particular way that we don't consider we would
19:12
want to do things, that's absolutely fine because I always
19:15
talk about this particular issue of, well, how about we put the
19:18
boot on the other foot for a change?
19:20
And you know, how many times do Nigerian politicians storm into
19:27
the United Kingdom and tell us we're doing it all wrong?
19:30
And that, this, that and the other is to be imposed and, and
19:33
then they're going to start extracting tin from Cornwall
19:37
again. And, you know, whatever it is.
19:38
So we, we are totally inconsistent, but also we are we
19:44
are prevailing upon people's innate humanity by suggesting
19:50
that foreign aid is a good thing, in the same way that
19:54
protecting the environment has been hijacked by the climate
19:59
narrative in order to deliver any of the net 0 cost
20:04
restrictions, control, whatever else.
20:07
I mean, this is it's the same model every time, it's just
20:10
dressed up in slightly different clothes.
20:13
I think it was Alexander Dugan who wrote about something called
20:16
the 4th Political theory in which he basically argues that
20:21
just leave every region or country or nation to determine
20:26
what's best for itself. Yes, I mean, if, if well, I do
20:29
well, sorry. All I would add to what I was
20:30
going to say is that is that the, the, the sort of ancillary
20:34
part to the, to the foreign aid, you know, foreign aid no good.
20:37
If you do want to benefit the economy of that country, then
20:41
then why not trade with it on an honest basis?
20:45
If, if, if there's something there that you would like, well,
20:48
fine, but but do a deal that actually makes sense for them
20:53
rather than strong arming them into it.
20:55
In the same way that you would expect to be the case if you
20:58
were doing business with somebody on your local High
21:02
Street or with a neighbor or whatever else it is.
21:04
Why should it be any different just because they're in a
21:06
different country? Mike, sorry, go on.
21:10
Yeah, Well, I was just, I was just going to say, I was just
21:13
going to add to that and say, you know, the, the, the concept
21:17
of the modern nation state was based on the Treaty of
21:20
Westphalia. And, you know, if, if anybody
21:23
hasn't read the first clause of the Treaty of Westphalia, you
21:26
should, you know, the idea of international relations being
21:32
on, to paraphrase for the benefit of the other, you know,
21:36
everything that that I do as a nation, I, I do for the benefit
21:40
of the other, because in benefiting the other, I'm
21:42
benefiting myself because we can trade effectively and so on.
21:46
We're not killing each other anymore.
21:47
This kind of thing, you know, it, it was, it was Tony Blair
21:50
that said that that concept was outdated.
21:52
And, and when, as he was, you know, I think in 2005 or 2008, I
21:57
can't remember when it was, you know, so I think getting past
22:02
the geopolitics and dropping this whole idea of the only way
22:07
to succeed in the world is to, is to, you know, be kicking
22:13
everybody else in the teeth. This isn't the right way to be
22:16
doing business. And, and, and so I think that's
22:19
where we've got to start changing our our views.
22:23
But we can see that happening with China.
22:25
I mean it, it just focuses on economics.
22:28
Whoever, whoever wants to buy their products, they're open for
22:31
business. I.
22:33
Mean, I think that. I think to a certain extent
22:36
that's true. I think that, you know, it's not
22:40
all a bed of roses with with what China's doing.
22:43
There's still a long way to go. I think that China has done a
22:49
spectacular job in raising the standard of living for for its
22:54
own population. I mean, just to correct what you
22:56
said earlier, it was, it was I went to China on in in April and
23:03
you know, I found, you know, you were saying that that Dubai was
23:08
a very safe place. I found Beijing and Xi'an to be
23:13
just the the incredibly safe. There was no St. crime
23:18
effectively at all in that in those in those cities.
23:22
I didn't see any evidence of it. And, and kids actually out in
23:26
parks, playing in the evenings, not sitting at home, you know,
23:34
with, on computer games or whatever, but but actually
23:36
outside and, and enjoying life and no sense of, of danger.
23:41
Because, you know, a lot of the rhetoric that we hear from, from
23:45
people is, well, we can't let the kids out to play because
23:48
it's not safe. Well, it's absolutely safe in
23:50
those countries. And I think if we're, if we're
23:52
seriously saying that it's not safe to let our kids go out and
23:55
play in our own countries, then we need to be really looking at
23:59
what's going on in our own countries and, and asking why
24:03
that is. I just find it amazing that that
24:08
there's basically no St. crime at all.
24:12
I I felt safer walking through Beijing than I ever felt walking
24:17
through Plymouth at night. Why do you think that is?
24:22
Is it culture or is it because of a strong top down approach?
24:29
I mean, to be honest, look, I, I went there for 10 days.
24:34
It's not possible for me to answer that question because,
24:38
because I don't know as much as you sort of get a, some idea of
24:43
what the country's like, you can't really know what it's like
24:45
unless you live there for, for a longer period.
24:48
And so I, I just, I don't know the answer to that question,
24:50
Chair, it's. An interesting one.
24:52
I mean, I'd, I'd been to Hong Kong a few months prior to
24:55
Mike's China visit and the situation is exactly the same.
25:00
I mean, I think I've talked about this a little bit before,
25:03
but, but though, you know, of course there are, there are
25:06
changes to the place, which I've noted over the years.
25:08
But fundamentally, the stability, the, the sort of
25:13
safety on the street and the way in which people are able to
25:15
manage their lives in the, in the areas that Mike talks about
25:19
are really exactly the same. You know, I mean, young children
25:21
will happily travel on public transport unaccompanied with No
25:24
Fear that anything might go wrong.
25:27
I mean, which is obviously not to say that it can't.
25:29
But I mean, as a frame of reference, talking to people
25:33
that had lived there for decades, respectively, it was a,
25:37
it was a major talking point that there'd been a burglary in
25:40
the house. This was something that I was
25:43
talking to one particular person about who had lived there for
25:46
over 30 years and he had never, ever known this happened before.
25:50
And this was a house near where he lived.
25:52
So I mean that that is pretty astonishing by comparison.
25:56
The very simplified sort of theory on Hong Kong is that the
26:01
relationship between the police and the triads is such that the
26:04
triads are effectively allowed to conduct sort of large scale
26:10
crime and a blind eye will be turned as long as petty and
26:15
violent crime that does affect the way people lead their lives
26:19
or are able to express those sorts of freedoms is not
26:22
compromised. And people are going to have
26:24
issues with that. Of course they are.
26:25
But the fact of it is that the way it plays out for society
26:29
means that they get to live their lives unencumbered by all
26:33
the sorts of crimes that we do see, certainly in the United
26:36
Kingdom, and I would say in the in the wider western world.
26:38
And, and that just general sense of degeneracy that you see on
26:42
the streets that is not evident in Hong Kong.
26:44
And that does seem to be still a culture of enterprise and people
26:51
just getting up and getting on. And the, the I, I, you know,
26:55
the, the interesting thing would be to know on a sort of chicken
26:58
and egg basis how that works. I mean, I think in the United
27:02
Kingdom it is very obvious that there is fairly early on in
27:07
life. I'm, I'm afraid for people now.
27:08
I think there's a binary option of whether you want to live off
27:12
the state or whether you want to live off an income that you
27:15
generate yourself. And ultimately the results,
27:20
depending on what sort of lifestyle you want to leave lead
27:23
are similar. If you want a big telly,
27:26
computer games, accommodation and all the rest of it, the
27:28
state will actually provide that with you.
27:30
That might sound overly cynical, but that really is the case.
27:33
And for a lot of people who've grown up knowing that way of
27:37
life, then there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it.
27:39
And I'm, I, I mean, I'm not necessarily here to pass
27:42
judgement, but I'm just saying that bearing in mind that is an
27:45
option here, it is easy to see that that would be a driver of
27:51
all the sorts of scourges that we do see or that we might
27:55
regard as being scourges on the way that people do behave in the
27:59
way that society relates to itself.
28:01
I would suggest that the situation in China and Hong Kong
28:04
is, is different and people don't therefore have those
28:07
options presented to them. And it this this is actually
28:10
closely related to the, to the idea of foreign aid.
28:15
I'm not suggesting you just turn the tap off immediately because
28:17
clearly that's unrealistic. But but it would absolutely be
28:22
preferable, desirable, I'm sure, for the society to run where
28:27
people are able to make their own way in life.
28:29
Yes, you want to have the ability to be able to help
28:33
people where required. But but traditionally that was
28:35
done by families. And of course we've seen a very
28:37
deliberate breakdown in the family unit with the dependence
28:41
therefore on the state and which means the state can do what it
28:44
what it likes. I just add to that, you know, my
28:47
wife works in primary school with special needs kids in
28:51
Plymouth and but it's in quite a poor area of Plymouth.
28:58
But the attitude of the parents in that area is, you know, well,
29:04
why would I teach my kids to to read?
29:06
Because, you know, we've lived on benefits our entire lives.
29:10
They're going to do the same. It's become a multi general
29:13
generational thing. Now why am I mentioning that?
29:16
Because well, two things, 1 is a policy and 1 is what actually
29:21
happened. So during COVID we had this idea
29:26
of furlough where people were effectively being paid to stay
29:30
at home and not be economically active.
29:33
And we have this future policy which is being trialled and has
29:37
been trialled in many places called universal basic income,
29:40
which is effectively to there or will be effectively there to
29:44
encourage this. Just as Charles was talking
29:48
about this lifestyle where you are effectively things are
29:51
provided for you by the state and there's no need to generate
29:55
any kind of income from your own, your, your own enthusiasm
30:01
for any form of work or, or so on.
30:04
So, so you know, this is something which to me represents
30:12
one of the real negative aspects of of Western society, because
30:18
that reliance on the state makes us by default utterly controlled
30:24
by the state. Because if we are reliant on the
30:28
state for the things which entertain and the things which
30:32
put food in our mouths, actually then we only get that if we do
30:39
the right things, if we behave the right ways, if we say the
30:42
right things, if we think the right things.
30:45
And you know, anybody that's ever been involved in the
30:50
benefit system or the, the unemployment benefit system
30:53
knows that when you go into the job centre in the UK, if you
30:58
have not done the things that they consider that you should
31:01
have done, they will sanction you as an individual.
31:04
Just in the same way that it, on a geopolitical level, we, we
31:07
attempt to sanction other countries or more recently,
31:11
Donald Trump attempts to effectively sanction other
31:13
countries by imposing tariffs. If the, if those countries don't
31:16
behave, this gets brought down to the absolute individual
31:20
level. And and so my view is we've got
31:24
to reject that Social Security system.
31:32
We should not be demanding more benefits, We should be demanding
31:36
absolutely less and we should be much more self reliant in terms
31:41
of our income. In an interesting paradox, as
31:47
far as I can tell, China has no welfare state.
31:51
So it encourages people to to make their own way, which is a
31:55
good thing because it's exactly what you say, mark it.
31:57
It sort of encourages self-reliance.
32:00
Meanwhile, here in South Africa we have a pretty large welfare
32:03
state and we have a very big poor population that doesn't
32:09
seem to be getting any smaller and and we have an increasing
32:14
dependence on the state as a result.
32:17
I'm afraid to say I, I think, you know, I, I, I say perhaps
32:21
rather generously that it's that, you know, it's hard to
32:24
know whether it's chicken or egg.
32:26
I mean, I think, I think actually we can be quite certain
32:28
this, this is, this is what is brought about by the mechanism
32:33
described as the welfare state. It is not that it is a response
32:37
to the burgeoning crisis of poverty or whatever else.
32:43
It's being described as being it, it absolutely drives it.
32:46
It's, it's the other way round. An alternative is presented.
32:49
And, and the problem is that what has happened, it's
32:52
certainly in the United Kingdom and I dare say in South Africa
32:54
and anywhere else that this has been rolled out, is that it
32:56
breaks down. I've talked about the family,
32:59
but also the other community structures that would
33:04
traditionally have supported people who were in need of help
33:09
for whatever reason. And that's not to act as a
33:13
deterrent at all to people making their own way as, as, as
33:17
we say, it is simply to provide that level of support when it's
33:20
necessary in order to get people back on their feet.
33:23
Of course, there's a kind of rear guard action.
33:24
Now, there are obviously a lot of charities that do do this,
33:27
but of course, that's again, a, a captured system because of the
33:30
way in which charities operate and, and all the specifics in
33:33
terms of financing that can be released at particular points.
33:37
And essentially that is also a trap for the people who are
33:41
within that system, which of course is enormously regrettable
33:43
because one, if you give people that, that are running these
33:46
charities the benefit of the doubt that their hands by and
33:49
large are tied by the state. But, but the, but the point is
33:52
that the, it's, you know, this is no different in a way from
33:55
the predicament that farmers find themselves in.
33:56
And the moment you enter, say, an environmental scheme, not
33:59
only are you not producing food, but also you have rendered the
34:02
land that could be profitable to you in a time of need utterly
34:07
useless. Because if the government turns
34:08
off that tap, what do you do? In the same way now that if the
34:11
welfare tap is switched off, all those small scale structures and
34:15
community networks that did previous previously exist based
34:19
on the family unit or closely aligned to the family unit,
34:21
they're not there. And this is the problem with
34:24
state intervention. And you can apply that, I would
34:27
say across the board. And the other aspect of this, of
34:31
course, is it, it's not only increases the population that
34:35
are reliant on the state because because they're reliant on the
34:39
state giving them the the money and, and the support that they
34:42
need, but it generates this massive state itself in the
34:47
sense that if you have this massive, overly complex benefits
34:51
Social Security system, you've got to have 10s of thousands of
34:55
people administering that and they're not really productive.
34:59
They're just shuffling bits of paper.
35:02
But that they are therefore also reliant on the state for their
35:06
incomes. And the same when you have a
35:08
massively overly complex tax system as we have, because
35:11
somehow you've got to fund all this stuff.
35:14
So, you know, it, it, it, it actually is not benefiting
35:19
anybody having the, the state the size of the days in order to
35:24
administer a Social Security system, the size of the days in
35:28
order to keep people unproductive.
35:31
That's, that is just leading people down the path of total
35:34
control. And it's part of the technocracy
35:36
that's on its way. Because of course, this is all
35:38
being digitized and turned digital and turned AI.
35:44
And of course, you know, as with most other jobs in 50 years
35:49
time. Well, actually, maybe the, the,
35:52
the, the people that are reliant on, on administering the Social
35:56
Security system for their incomes are going to find
35:59
themselves in a position where they aren't able to find a
36:03
productive job because they don't have any skills that can,
36:06
that, that are actually productive.
36:08
And, you know, AI will have taken over the administration of
36:12
the whole thing. So, so it's, it's not really a
36:16
win for anybody. You know, humanity over the
36:20
centuries has managed to be quite, what's the word I'm
36:27
looking for, creative in how it generates or creates economies.
36:37
And I think the way out is to abandon the reliance on this big
36:45
nanny that we have. And, you know, we're not, we're
36:48
not stupid. We are capable of of generating
36:53
productive enterprise if we want to.
36:56
And it's a question of motivation and a question of
36:59
having some ideas and a question of not taking the easy way.
37:05
What we have to be mindful of, and, and I would include the
37:07
audience listening to this in it, is that we, we mustn't
37:11
forget that the way in which we discuss this is from a
37:15
particular perspective or indeed a degree of consideration that
37:19
the majority won't have run themselves through.
37:22
And I don't mean that in the patronising sense.
37:24
I just mean that because we are considering these sorts of
37:27
things like government being a scam, which a lot of people
37:30
still haven't really cottoned onto, even if they might
37:33
mistrust, you know, this Labour government only to think, Oh
37:37
well, Reform would do a better job or the Tories would do a
37:40
better job or, or whatever. It is actually the the number of
37:45
people who have jumped that particular hurdle into thinking
37:48
about the, the subjects that have come up on today's session
37:52
are still pretty small. And I would say therefore that
37:55
for the people who are still receiving from the welfare
37:59
state, I'm not, I'm not just talking about the United
38:01
Kingdom, but but wherever this exists, for as long as people
38:05
can in effect suck on that teat, they are going to be very much
38:09
less inclined to do anything about it because it is still the
38:12
path of least resistance. I think amazingly as it might
38:16
seem for us, I think it's still the situation has to get quite a
38:19
lot worse before it will get better.
38:21
It's really only going to be driven by the suggestion of
38:25
there being a necessity to do something different.
38:28
And yes, of course over time people will realise this.
38:32
But I think for anyone who is trapped within that system and
38:35
sees that for them it is still working, then they're not going
38:39
to consider the alternative. I am, of course, speaking
38:42
generally. And one hopes that in a fairly
38:47
short period of time, more and more people will become alive to
38:50
this. And also the, you know, the sort
38:54
of multiplier effect, even if it's only within one small
38:57
community that, you know, let's say 5 or 6 people who have led a
39:02
life like this are captivated by some new initiative there.
39:05
Somebody has started a business and these people want to join
39:10
in. And that has a knock on effect.
39:12
I mean, I think it's going to be small activities like that
39:15
rather than a sort of widespread response to what we perceive to
39:20
be a, a, a disastrous system. But I, I, I do think, I mean, I,
39:25
I don't mean to sound negative in saying this, but I do think
39:28
that we shouldn't underestimate the degree to which other people
39:32
are not really considering the sorts of things that we're
39:35
talking about in the way that we look at them.
39:38
That's a good point and I'm reminded of the lunch that I was
39:43
having with Zooby and he made such a fascinating point.
39:46
It's so obvious actually, if you think about it, he said.
39:51
Right here in Dubai, this is a desert.
39:53
It's the complete desert. It's hot, it's uncomfortable.
39:56
And why on earth would you come here?
39:58
Well, 0% income tax and now I think only 5% VAT on some
40:05
products. It's a very welcoming
40:09
environment in terms of business.
40:11
And the people, as we said at the beginning of the show, in my
40:14
experience, are extremely hospitable and and warm.
40:18
Metaphorically it. It's interesting how that
40:25
system, which is a monarchy, it's not even a democracy.
40:27
No voting can actually be very, very successful.
40:32
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a very unusual case study in that
40:38
it's a, it's a sort of almost blank canvas project.
40:43
You know, obviously it had there not been the that Creek there,
40:48
it it wouldn't exist in that place.
40:50
And previously as somewhere that had really only hosted a little
40:54
bit of Pearl. Yeah, yeah.
40:55
But but, but, but what I what I mean is that in terms of
40:58
settlement, historical settlement, it was, it was only
41:00
related to Pearl fishing. That was it.
41:02
It was, it was basically nothing, nothing there.
41:04
So to create something that has become now a sort of symbol of
41:10
modern development and all the rest of it was, was really very
41:13
straightforward because there was nothing there that had to
41:16
creak and groan and be adjusted to make it work as it, as it
41:20
does now. And therefore all the sorts of
41:21
incentives that you're talking about were not so easy to,
41:25
sorry, not so difficult to, to make work because of that way in
41:30
which it, it was sort of started from scratch.
41:33
Whereas you take London for example, which has thousands of
41:38
years of history. It's, it's very difficult to see
41:41
and you, and you see this with say mobile telephone networks.
41:44
The, the, my impression of the United Kingdom mobile telephone
41:48
network is that it is absolute rubbish and has been ever since
41:51
I started using it, it has not got one job better in how many
41:54
years it's been going. Whereas you go to countries that
41:57
have started their communications network from
42:00
scratch because it was too difficult topographically to, to
42:05
roll out a landline network or whatever.
42:07
And those systems work much better because again, within
42:10
that compressed period of time, you're starting something from
42:13
scratch and you're able to. So, so Dubai or to an extent
42:18
probably Abu Dhabi are they're just weird, they're anomalous.
42:23
So I So what I'm saying is I don't know that you can
42:25
necessarily take that model and applied anywhere else because
42:28
you're not starting from scratch and that's a difficulty.
42:31
It is a good point also about the history.
42:35
I mean, if you think about some of those countries in the Gulf
42:39
States, they don't have a very long history there.
42:42
UAE what just a few decades old already at, at most with any
42:47
kind of significant history, whereas the UK British history
42:51
is thousands of years. And, and that also in some ways
42:56
makes it difficult for any progress to occur.
43:01
If the trajectory is, is downwards like it is at the
43:04
moment right across Europe. It's very difficult to turn that
43:06
around. If you've got such a long, long
43:10
history. It it kind of cements that that
43:15
vector into One Direction and it's almost impossible to to to
43:19
to change the direction of that vector.
43:21
Don't know how to answer that. That might, that might be, that
43:24
might be a good observation. I, I think that I, I think that
43:31
there certainly are no answers if you're expecting to turn the
43:37
direction of government or the direction of big corporate
43:41
entities. I, I think that the way that
43:43
this works is from the bottom up and it, it starts with people
43:49
recognizing the need to rebuild community and, and you know, and
43:54
I'm, I'm not in any way attempting to underestimate how,
43:57
how hard that is. It can be extremely difficult
44:01
even just to stick your head over the, the wall between
44:06
yourself and the neighbor and say hello, that, that absolutely
44:09
can be extremely difficult. But I think that that simple act
44:14
is in itself an act of resistance.
44:17
And, and maybe that's where, that's where it starts.
44:19
It just starts with having conversations with people and,
44:22
and not necessarily, you know, beginning the conversation with,
44:28
you know, something like, they're all out to kill us.
44:31
You just have normal, normal conversations with people and,
44:35
and just take it one step at a time and see, see what can be
44:38
built out of it. And, and, and being willing to,
44:42
to reconsider, you know, maybe it is the case that we have
44:48
shifted ourselves from where we were born or whatever in order
44:54
to pursue a career. Maybe it, maybe it is worth
44:59
considering reconstituting the families that we have and so on.
45:04
Maybe that's worth the effort. You know that that might be the
45:09
way to start. I'm certain, I'm absolutely
45:12
certain that that that is the way to start.
45:14
Just to just to go back one on the history thing, I think it is
45:18
absolutely a good point. I would say the the sort of
45:20
stand out exception. Well, one obvious one is China,
45:24
because obviously China has a, a well documented, very rich
45:27
ancient history and yet it's undergone very, very profound
45:31
changes in recent times and they appear from the outside to have
45:36
been top down changes made. I, I, I won't go on about that
45:42
because obviously Carl Tsar has, has spoken to Mike about this in
45:46
great detail. And I, I would encourage people
45:48
to go to listen to that. So I wonder whether it, I, I
45:51
don't mean to say we're oversimplifying and we're
45:54
therefore we're going to get it wrong, but it, it's certainly an
45:57
element. I would say we're, we're
45:59
probably closer to the mark with this idea that welfare or indeed
46:06
intervention in the lives of individuals or in industries is
46:12
in fact more of a significant factor.
46:14
If we look at in the United Kingdom, what's happened since
46:17
in particular the Second World War, if not the first, and the
46:21
meddling with education, with what's called health, but isn't
46:26
with agriculture, with industry and with utilities, then I think
46:32
I, I certainly would come to a different conclusion and that a
46:36
natural fact. It's this idea of intervention.
46:39
I don't think that our long it's to, you know, to describe the
46:44
long history. I mean, just go back to the UE.
46:45
Of course there's a history, but it just doesn't, it didn't have
46:47
a history that's either documented or that was one of
46:51
large settlements being in the same place at the same time.
46:54
We've talked about this sort of thing previously in terms of
46:56
lifestyle being more nomadic than it is now and that kind of
47:00
thing. So I think there are a whole lot
47:01
of factors that we probably can't bring in quite now, but
47:04
but I would say that that really history and sort of outcomes
47:10
don't necessarily have to be dictated by the the length of
47:15
that perceived history. It's rather more to do with the
47:18
what has been allowed to happen along the way, and indeed the
47:21
way in which the state has been able to confect and then utilise
47:27
states of emergency to propagate particular results which have a
47:30
very negative consequence for the population who are ensnared
47:33
by them. I think the overarching comment
47:37
here though, is that there isn't a formula that applies across
47:44
the board. It does definitely seem to be
47:46
the case that different populations or different groups
47:49
of people respond differently to to different ways of governance.
47:55
It you can't say, well, we're going to take democracy there.
47:58
If if they don't want it, they don't want it.
48:00
I don't think it's even a case of, of taking democracy that if,
48:04
if we were just taking democracy, you know, the, the
48:07
way that the mission, you know, the way that missionaries took
48:11
Christianity or whatever. If we were taking it to other
48:14
countries and we were, we were trying to sell it as a concept,
48:16
that would be one thing. But that's not what we're doing.
48:18
We're imposing it. We're saying if you, we're
48:22
saying we will give you all this cash if you become a democracy
48:25
or, or we're saying if you don't become a democracy, we're,
48:28
there's, we're going to run a regime change war against you.
48:32
You know, it's, it's that, that in itself, the entire approach
48:36
that we have taken on, on our exporting of democracy to, to
48:41
developing countries should give us a clue about what democracy
48:47
is. It's not what we think it is.
48:50
And you know, really, if, if, if the entire basis of our selling
49:00
to or or or of sorry, if our entire basis of, of installing
49:03
democracy in another country is that you have no choice about
49:07
whether you take it or not, then then you know, it.
49:11
Does nobody see the irony in that?
49:13
So I was just thinking of your, of the reference there to to
49:19
missionaries, for example, and thinking about David
49:22
Livingstone, who is arguably the best known missionary of the
49:25
Victorian era. And a couple of things of note.
49:31
First of all, in terms of his success at in his mission, it's
49:38
it's reported that in actual fact, he only in all his time
49:42
exploring the African continent, he only converted one person to
49:46
Christianity. He he had converted to but one
49:51
subsequently decided that actually it wasn't for him and
49:55
he was a oh, sorry, I forget who he was.
49:58
So, so so the result was that he converted one person to
50:01
Christianity successfully during that period of time, which
50:03
extended for at least 2 decades. And, and also it's reported that
50:09
one tribal chief found the idea of Christianity so hilarious
50:12
that he stood on his head whilst laughing about it.
50:16
So that was one thing, but, but look at where, look at where
50:19
Christianity in Africa is now. And Livingstone could not
50:23
possibly have foreseen that that was going to happen, although he
50:27
would have hoped for it. So that has been a fascinating
50:31
thing to watch play out nearly 200 years later.
50:34
And, and then the, the other thing, going back to perspective
50:38
from exploring and travelling and seeing other cultures, it is
50:43
quite remarkable to think the ground he covered and, and the
50:46
astonishing things he saw. And it just, I mean, it's an
50:48
anecdote and I'm not really sure why I'm bringing it in, but I
50:50
just think it's so remarkable. He, he is reputed to have
50:54
discovered in the way that only Westerners could because
50:56
apparently nobody there could actually see these things.
50:58
But he, he was supposed to have discovered the, what's now
51:01
called the Victoria Falls, Mossso, Ortonia in 1855.
51:05
And yet he passed through that very area 5 years previously and
51:09
was told about it. And he could even hear the
51:10
waterfalls and he could see what is the smoke that thunders the,
51:14
the spray that comes up off the falls.
51:16
But he said, no, I'm sorry, I'm too busy.
51:18
I've got a crack on and I'm not going to look at it now despite
51:21
being that close to it. And it wasn't until five years
51:24
later that he went back and found it.
51:26
So I'm not sure if there's necessarily moral of the story
51:28
there, but it is incredible to think that his perspective going
51:33
back to the beginning of the conversation was such that he
51:36
was focused on presumably getting to wherever it was, or
51:39
indeed his mission to convert people to Christianity, that he
51:42
ignored what is widely regarded as probably the greatest natural
51:46
wonder of that region of of all of Africa.
51:49
Totally bizarre. To what degree one can attribute
51:53
his explorations and efforts to what has transpired
51:58
subsequently, I wouldn't know. And as I say, it's sort of
52:01
humorous that that it's a bit like Jack the Ripper being the,
52:04
the, the most notorious serial killer killer ever.
52:08
But actually I say only, I mean, he killed 5 people.
52:11
And I think if you straw poll, most people think it was many
52:13
more than that. And and Livingston having only
52:16
successfully converted one person sort of seems ridiculous.
52:19
But actually then look now look at look at how how dominant the
52:23
Christian Church in Africa has become and how interestingly,
52:27
you know, they in particular have rejected, well, it was in
52:31
particular Justin Welby. I know that seems like a bit of
52:34
a sidetrack, but it but it, but the, the point is going like a
52:37
bit like the sort of too early to tell with the French
52:40
Revolution. We, we can't really know what's
52:43
going to happen as a result of these sorts of actions, all
52:46
these sorts of things we're we're discussing now.
52:48
But I think we have to remain hopeful and we have to
52:51
continually talk about the the the positive benefits of exactly
52:56
like Mike was just saying, you know, reinvigorating the family
52:59
unit and making that the most important thing.
53:03
Mike, it's coming for a landing. Let's close off with a
53:06
concluding thought from you based on this conversation.
53:11
You always do this to me. Concluding thoughts?
53:13
What am I supposed to? I don't know.
53:15
Concluding thoughts? My goodness me.
53:18
Look, I, I would, I would just say that, you know, we all
53:26
recognize, I think we've had a good conversation here.
53:30
We all recognize what the issues are.
53:32
We absolutely lots of people find those issues to be
53:37
completely overwhelming. And if, if that's the case, then
53:42
maybe we just need to be going back to basics and thinking
53:47
about how we how we build our own societies.
53:50
Again, this, as we know, according to the current
53:53
definition, definition of extremism is an extremist view.
53:59
I think that we should reject the forms of extremism that the
54:02
British government and the British media are pushing us
54:05
into and grab with both hands that definition of extremism and
54:11
run with it. Mike Charles, I'll see you gents
54:16
next week.