Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #846 An Honest Conversation

Transcript

#846 An Honest Conversation · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
0:10
Speaker 2: Now, whatever reason they're doing it for, ultimately, what they're
0:14
Speaker 2: trying to do is make this situation go away as
0:16
Speaker 2: painlessly as they possibly can, so that we can just get.
0:18
Speaker 3: On with our lives again.
0:20
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
0:23
Speaker 1: and Dad.
0:23
Speaker 4: You know that.
0:24
Speaker 2: Every now and again, I love to use this podcast
0:26
Speaker 2: as a platform to pretend that I'm still in radio
0:29
Speaker 2: like I was twenty years ago. I mean, it was
0:30
Speaker 2: a long time ago, but you know, I can't help
0:33
Speaker 2: it every now and again. I haven't lost it my hand,
0:36
Speaker 2: I know, but I just want to that the topic
0:38
Speaker 2: of today's conversation.
0:39
Speaker 3: Based on an email that we've received from one.
0:41
Speaker 2: Of our listeners via podcasts at Happy Families dot com,
0:45
Speaker 2: makes me think of Billy Joel, But it also makes
0:51
Speaker 2: me think.
0:51
Speaker 3: Of Charles and Eddie.
0:58
Speaker 2: But it also makes me think of the Mix. And
1:04
Speaker 2: then there's that other song by Fleetwood, Matt and I
1:11
Speaker 2: could keep on going, but they're the big ones. I
1:13
Speaker 2: can't help myself because today's topic is, like I said,
1:17
Speaker 2: in response to an email that we had from Emma
1:19
Speaker 2: who says and I quote, we are having a lot
1:21
Speaker 2: of trouble understanding why our eight year old is constantly lying.
1:25
Speaker 2: It can be about absolutely trivial things or the very
1:28
Speaker 2: age appropriate lies to get out of trouble. I find
1:31
Speaker 2: it very hurtful, and unlike any of our other three
1:34
Speaker 2: girls behavior, lying seems to be our biggest behavior challenge
1:38
Speaker 2: with this daughter.
1:39
Speaker 3: Any strategies to help would be so very appreciated.
1:41
Speaker 2: So Kylie, today we're having a conversation about honesty and
1:45
Speaker 2: teaching our children not to lie. Let me ask you
1:50
Speaker 2: this though, do you remember House? You remember the TV
1:52
Speaker 2: show we used.
1:53
Speaker 3: To watch House? Yeah, you remember the one phrase rank doctor? Yeah,
1:57
Speaker 3: the cranky doctor. Do you remember the one.
1:58
Speaker 2: Phrase He's actually Brittish but he had the great American
2:01
Speaker 2: accent the whole way throw. I never knew till I
2:02
Speaker 2: heard him speaking in English in British with the British accents.
2:06
Speaker 2: Heard him speaking with the British accent, and I remember going, Wow,
2:09
Speaker 2: he really does a good British accent. And then I
2:11
Speaker 2: discovered that he's British and he was speaking with an
2:12
Speaker 2: American accent in the series. But do you remember the
2:14
Speaker 2: one line that he had about every patient.
2:16
Speaker 3: That came in.
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Speaker 4: You don't remember, No, I don't.
2:19
Speaker 3: He used to say, everybody lies. The only variable is
2:23
Speaker 3: but what do you believe it? Do you lie? Important question?
2:26
Speaker 4: Do you not intentionally?
2:28
Speaker 3: Really?
2:30
Speaker 2: So you're saying that you unintentionally lie? We just you
2:32
Speaker 2: accidentally say the wrong thing. You sound like one of
2:35
Speaker 2: our children right now. I accidently light I didn't mean
2:37
Speaker 2: to mislead you. It just kind of did. It happened
2:40
Speaker 2: to be my advantage.
2:42
Speaker 4: Well, I'm reading some books and understanding that our perceptions
2:47
Speaker 4: are quite skewed at times, Yes, in our efforts to
2:50
Speaker 4: preserve ourselves.
2:52
Speaker 2: Right, So what you're reading about his self deception the
2:54
Speaker 2: way we don't just lie to other people, we actually
2:56
Speaker 2: lie to ourselves.
2:57
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but we believe it's truth because if we
3:00
Speaker 4: don't believe it's true, then what.
3:01
Speaker 3: Does that say about us?
3:03
Speaker 4: That's exactly right.
3:04
Speaker 2: So we don't actually believe it's truth, but we lie
3:06
Speaker 2: to ourselves about the truth that it.
3:07
Speaker 3: Isn't so that we can think that it is so
3:10
Speaker 3: that we can feel good.
3:11
Speaker 2: About ourselves, because otherwise would feel terrible about ourselves because
3:13
Speaker 2: we're awful people. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, right,
3:16
Speaker 2: So up lifting. Aren't you glad that you listened to
3:18
Speaker 2: this podcast the morning? I reckon it would be fascinating
3:24
Speaker 2: to do a challenge and see how long you can
3:26
Speaker 2: go without lying, without a single lie escaping your lips.
3:30
Speaker 2: I reckon it would be very, very hard to get through.
3:32
Speaker 2: I was going to say a day, but I'm going
3:34
Speaker 2: to suggest both you and I work pretty hard on
3:36
Speaker 2: being transparent and honest and not shying away from hard conversations.
3:40
Speaker 4: Look, everybody asks you how you're doing, and more times
3:42
Speaker 4: than not, I'll.
3:42
Speaker 3: Say fine, were you saying you're not fine?
3:45
Speaker 4: No? Often I'm not Why Why are you asking me?
3:49
Speaker 3: Why?
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Speaker 2: Why do you lie about how you're doing? I mean,
3:52
Speaker 2: this is the whole thing that are you okay?
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Speaker 3: They right? How you doing? Are you okay?
3:57
Speaker 4: Because I don't have the capacity to have a conversation
3:59
Speaker 4: with you right now, or I don't feel you're genuine
4:03
Speaker 4: in your request to find out how I'm doing okay?
4:06
Speaker 2: So it's timing, and it's also a feeling of safety. Yeah,
4:09
Speaker 2: is there anything.
4:09
Speaker 4: Else a concern about judgment?
4:12
Speaker 3: Yeah?
4:12
Speaker 2: Right, okay, which sort of ties back in with the
4:14
Speaker 2: idea of safety. So I think if we're going to
4:16
Speaker 2: answer Emma's question, we need to pause and consider why
4:19
Speaker 2: we lie. If House is right, if everybody lies, and
4:22
Speaker 2: if we do deceive our own selves, then it's a
4:25
Speaker 2: really important consideration. It's a really important question. And if
4:30
Speaker 2: we understand why we lie, it can help us to
4:33
Speaker 2: then step into the world of our children and get
4:36
Speaker 2: why they might be lying. So when you think about
4:39
Speaker 2: these little liars that we've got running around our ankles
4:42
Speaker 2: every now and again, and Emma certainly is dealing it
4:44
Speaker 2: with one of her children, and I shouldn't talk about
4:46
Speaker 2: our kids like that, because they're not just little lies,
4:49
Speaker 2: they're also cherubs. Why do you think kids are most
4:53
Speaker 2: likely to lie? Do you think that they're engaging in
4:55
Speaker 2: self deception? Are they trying to preserve their identity in
4:58
Speaker 2: the same way that you or I am?
5:00
Speaker 4: No, I don't think they have the same cognition.
5:02
Speaker 3: No, they don't. They don't, especially at the age of eight.
5:05
Speaker 4: This is more about either being fearful of getting in trouble.
5:10
Speaker 2: Right, And so Emma said exactly that in her email
5:14
Speaker 2: to us. She highlighted that specific issue. But why else
5:18
Speaker 2: do you reckon they'd be lying?
5:20
Speaker 4: Well, like it's another thing they'd be concerned about as
5:22
Speaker 4: a rupture in the relationship.
5:23
Speaker 3: Yeah for sure. Yeah.
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Speaker 4: So if I tell Mom that I've done this and
5:27
Speaker 4: then she gets angry at me, maybe she won't love
5:28
Speaker 4: me anymore.
5:29
Speaker 2: So I would write that down as they're scared that
5:31
Speaker 2: they won't be loved. Not only are they afraid that
5:33
Speaker 2: they'll be in trouble, but they're scared that they will
5:35
Speaker 2: become unlovable.
5:37
Speaker 3: Yeah.
5:38
Speaker 2: A couple of other reasons that I can think of
5:39
Speaker 2: that kids might lie to us. One of them is
5:42
Speaker 2: when they think they've got this, Like, I know I'm
5:45
Speaker 2: in over my head, I know things aren't working out
5:47
Speaker 2: so well. I know that I kind of just got
5:49
Speaker 2: red handed. But I've got this, I've got it under control.
5:52
Speaker 2: I can get my way through this. It's going to
5:54
Speaker 2: be okay. I want to demonstrate my confidence, my capability.
5:57
Speaker 2: I want to just be independent. Don't want interference from
6:01
Speaker 2: the big people in my life. And so there's that
6:04
Speaker 2: line where they think that they've got it, they think
6:06
Speaker 2: that they can handle it, and then they end up
6:07
Speaker 2: in deeper and.
6:08
Speaker 3: Deeper water as a result.
6:10
Speaker 2: And the other reason that I think that our kids
6:12
Speaker 2: lie is because we've taught them with all of our
6:16
Speaker 2: white lives, with all of our hedging and fudging. Oh
6:19
Speaker 2: you can do that on the weekend. I will come
6:20
Speaker 2: back here another time. And no, no, no, I wasn't on
6:22
Speaker 2: my phone doing that. I was doing this instead.
6:25
Speaker 3: It's one of those.
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Speaker 2: Important things that I have to do, all of the
6:27
Speaker 2: little white lives that we come up with. I'll be
6:29
Speaker 2: with you in two minutes. I've just got to finish
6:31
Speaker 2: this thing, and I'll be with you in two minutes.
6:33
Speaker 2: I think that we teach them as well that honesty
6:35
Speaker 2: is not as valuable as we sometimes make it.
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Speaker 3: Out to be.
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Speaker 2: So we've got, example, we've got afraid of being in trouble,
6:42
Speaker 2: we've got afraid that they're not going to be loved,
6:44
Speaker 2: and we've got the feeling that they've got it all together.
6:47
Speaker 2: To me, when I read an email like Emma's, I
6:49
Speaker 2: think to myself, this is probably why we've got an
6:51
Speaker 2: eight year old who's telling FIBs constantly, lying even about
6:55
Speaker 2: the trivial things. I mean, it even makes more sense
6:57
Speaker 2: with the trivial things, because they want to prove that
6:59
Speaker 2: they've got this the control.
7:00
Speaker 3: That they're big enough that they can handle it. So
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Speaker 3: they're gonna lie.
7:03
Speaker 2: You might say it's cold outside and they'll say, well,
7:05
Speaker 2: I'm I'm really hot, even though they've got goose pimples,
7:08
Speaker 2: goose goosebumps on their.
7:09
Speaker 3: Skin, goose pimples.
7:11
Speaker 5: Yeah, do you not call them goose pimpless goose pimples. Well,
7:15
Speaker 5: I've heard people call them goose pimples, and I don't
7:17
Speaker 5: know why, but I call them goose pimples. And I'm
7:20
Speaker 5: not even telling a lie about it. So here's the thing, kylie.
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Speaker 5: Lying is actually a developmental achievement.
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Speaker 3: We should be excited when our kids can lie. Tell
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Speaker 3: me why, I'm just trying to put a positive spin
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Speaker 3: on it.
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Speaker 2: Well, what it really shows is if your child knows
7:34
Speaker 2: how to lie, it means that cognitively they've gotten to
7:36
Speaker 2: a point where they know that they can manipulate information.
7:42
Speaker 2: They can hold information that's different to your information without
7:46
Speaker 2: passing that along. You see the world differently for them.
7:48
Speaker 2: They're developing this thing that we call theory of mind. Now,
7:51
Speaker 2: researchers argue that this difference in perception, the ability to
7:54
Speaker 2: say I'm seeing it this way and they're seeing it
7:56
Speaker 2: that way, and I get it, and I can hold
7:57
Speaker 2: both of those perspectives. At the same time, researchers think
8:00
Speaker 2: that that comes in somewhere around four and a half, five,
8:02
Speaker 2: maybe five and a half. But in the last year
8:04
Speaker 2: or two that's been called into question. And that's why
8:07
Speaker 2: we see kids doing really lousy lies when they're only three, four, five, six,
8:12
Speaker 2: and the longing becomes a bit more sophisticated when they
8:14
Speaker 2: get to eight, nine, ten, because that theory of mind
8:18
Speaker 2: capacity is really.
8:19
Speaker 3: Starting to embed itself. It's starting to build itself.
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Speaker 2: In to the child's way of being, the child's way
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Speaker 2: of thinking.
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Speaker 4: We actually had a pretty i'm going to say cool
8:33
Speaker 4: experience because we actually watched this play out with the
8:36
Speaker 4: kids the other week. One of our children had done
8:40
Speaker 4: the wrong thing, but she recognized that if she owned
8:43
Speaker 4: up to it, that she would probably get in a
8:45
Speaker 4: bit more trouble than her little sister, and so she
8:47
Speaker 4: convinced her little sister to take the blame.
8:50
Speaker 3: To take the fall. Yeah, And her.
8:53
Speaker 4: Little sister did it with so so much sincerity that
8:58
Speaker 4: I believed her, in spite of the fact that it
9:01
Speaker 4: actually went against her nature to do what she was
9:04
Speaker 4: saying that she had done. But she was just so
9:08
Speaker 4: contrite and so apologetic for doing the wrong thing. And
9:13
Speaker 4: it wasn't until we kind of sat back and went,
9:16
Speaker 4: this doesn't make sense. And finally the bigger one, the
9:20
Speaker 4: bigger one actually came and told us what had happened.
9:24
Speaker 4: But like I said, it was cool because as I'm
9:27
Speaker 4: looking at this and dissecting and we're having this conversation,
9:30
Speaker 4: I'm watching I'm actually watching in real time those cognitive
9:35
Speaker 4: wheels turning in each of the kid's minds as they
9:38
Speaker 4: try to negate this challenging situation that they've found themselves
9:43
Speaker 4: in and what is the best and most pain free
9:46
Speaker 4: way to get through it right?
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Speaker 2: And that's ultimately where line is coming from. Whether it's
9:51
Speaker 2: trying to prove that they can do something in their competent,
9:53
Speaker 2: or trying to avoid loss of parental love, or whether
9:57
Speaker 2: it's trying to avoid getting in trouble or whatever reason
9:59
Speaker 2: they'd do doing it for. Ultimately, what they're trying to
10:02
Speaker 2: do is make this situation go away as painlessly as
10:05
Speaker 2: they possibly can, so that we can just get on
10:07
Speaker 2: with our lives again.
10:08
Speaker 3: I think that we need.
10:09
Speaker 2: To talk about how we can help our kids when
10:11
Speaker 2: they are being dishonest, What conversations we need to have,
10:13
Speaker 2: how we can guide them towards more integrity in the
10:16
Speaker 2: way they engage with us.
10:18
Speaker 4: Well, we already spoke about this situation on the podcasts
10:22
Speaker 4: a week or so ago, but the conversation we were
10:24
Speaker 4: able to have with our daughter after she told the
10:28
Speaker 4: truth yes, was such a powerful one because it reinforced
10:33
Speaker 4: to her that no matter what she does, she's loved. Okay,
10:37
Speaker 4: there is literally nothing she could do that would stop
10:40
Speaker 4: us from loving her.
10:41
Speaker 2: So if we step through what needs to happen, the
10:44
Speaker 2: first thing I would say is we've got to keep
10:46
Speaker 2: our emotions in check because there's something, at least for me,
10:49
Speaker 2: something really I don't like the word triggering, but for me,
10:53
Speaker 2: when it comes to dishonesty, it's probably the thing that
10:54
Speaker 2: sets me off more than anything else. Why do you
10:56
Speaker 2: think that's the case, I don't know, but there's just
10:59
Speaker 2: something about I feel as though we don't If we
11:01
Speaker 2: can't be honest in our relationship, we don't have a relationship.
11:03
Speaker 3: If you feel like you have to lie.
11:05
Speaker 2: To me, it demonstrates that you don't think I'm going
11:08
Speaker 2: to act in your best interest, or you have interests
11:10
Speaker 2: that are deeply differentiated from mine. As a result of that,
11:16
Speaker 2: we can't be on the same page, we can't be aligned.
11:18
Speaker 4: But you're expecting an eight year old to think like
11:21
Speaker 4: you think.
11:21
Speaker 3: I know, that's a big call, isn't it.
11:23
Speaker 2: But if I can help my eight year old to
11:26
Speaker 2: trust me, and this is what I want EMA to
11:27
Speaker 2: really emphasize here, if we can help our eight year
11:30
Speaker 2: old to trust us, to know that we are there
11:32
Speaker 2: to act in their best interests, then they will not
11:35
Speaker 2: feel a need.
11:35
Speaker 3: To lie to avoid getting in trouble.
11:37
Speaker 2: They'll see us as their advocate, not their adversary. So
11:41
Speaker 2: the only way that we can do that is to
11:43
Speaker 2: stay level, calm, and cool even if they do lie.
11:47
Speaker 4: So in most cases this will be probably actually not
11:50
Speaker 4: dealing with it in the moment. Yes, for most of us,
11:53
Speaker 4: we're not going to be calm, call and collected.
11:55
Speaker 3: That's right.
11:56
Speaker 2: We have a society wide expectation that people will tell
11:59
Speaker 2: the truth.
12:00
Speaker 3: That's at the very core.
12:01
Speaker 2: I mean, trust in a relationship makes everything work, It
12:05
Speaker 2: makes things more efficient. When there's no trust, that's when
12:07
Speaker 2: you start getting lawyers involved and everything gets costly, not
12:10
Speaker 2: just financially but emotionally and socially. A lack of trust
12:14
Speaker 2: brings everything to a grinding halt while we work out
12:17
Speaker 2: every single detail of every single thing. And it's the
12:20
Speaker 2: same in our families. When there's no trust. Our child
12:23
Speaker 2: says I want to go and do this, and we say, well,
12:25
Speaker 2: tell me what that means.
12:26
Speaker 3: Where will you be, who will you be with? How
12:28
Speaker 3: long will you be gone?
12:29
Speaker 2: Now they might be normal questions to ask anyway, but
12:31
Speaker 2: we start to interrogate. Rather than having a quick conversation
12:34
Speaker 2: to check in that everything's okay, we start to really
12:36
Speaker 2: interrogate the matter, really dive into the nitty gritty and
12:40
Speaker 2: pull them up on any inconsistencies. When there's trust, you
12:43
Speaker 2: actually you'll often let inconsistencies slide because you know that
12:46
Speaker 2: it was just a slip of the tongue, It wasn't
12:48
Speaker 2: actually anything meaningful. So if a child lies to your
12:51
Speaker 2: number one, keep your emotions balanced, stay in.
12:55
Speaker 3: Check, keep it level.
12:56
Speaker 2: It might mean you say, at the moment, I'm struggling
12:58
Speaker 2: with the way this conversation is going. It doesn't seem
13:00
Speaker 2: right to me. I'm going to step out until I
13:03
Speaker 2: can take a big, deep breath and come back in integrity.
13:07
Speaker 2: Telling the truth, being honest is really important in our
13:09
Speaker 2: family and you step out.
13:11
Speaker 3: Another thing to do is that perhaps.
13:13
Speaker 2: You can let your children know that you understand that
13:17
Speaker 2: they are struggling to understand the difference between what's true
13:20
Speaker 2: and what they wish was true. So, if they're lying
13:22
Speaker 2: about something, instead of challenging them on it and saying,
13:25
Speaker 2: why do you always have to lie? I think that
13:27
Speaker 2: it's really reasonable to say you wish that was true,
13:31
Speaker 2: don't you wouldn't it be fantastic if what is true
13:35
Speaker 2: and what you wish were true, we're exactly the same thing.
13:38
Speaker 2: What you wish though isn't how it actually is. And
13:40
Speaker 2: you know that and I know that. And I found
13:42
Speaker 2: that specific phrase to be really helpful in conversations with
13:45
Speaker 2: the kids. You know this and I know this. It
13:49
Speaker 2: kind of just brings them back right here right now.
13:52
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where they don't go, you
13:53
Speaker 2: don't know that, and I know something different. They kind
13:56
Speaker 2: of go, yeah, actually, I do know that, and I
13:57
Speaker 2: know that you know that as well.
13:59
Speaker 3: It helps soften all of that. Well.
14:03
Speaker 4: In doing that, what you're actually giving them is the
14:07
Speaker 4: empathy that they need, right instead of having them feel
14:11
Speaker 4: like they have to justify the lie that they've told.
14:14
Speaker 3: Yeah.
14:14
Speaker 2: Another compassionate way to do that is, let's say there's
14:19
Speaker 2: your treat, your treat that was in the fridge that
14:22
Speaker 2: you've been saving for Sunday night, that special chocolate that
14:25
Speaker 2: you're given as a gift. Suddenly it disappears and the
14:28
Speaker 2: wrapping ends up in the bin. And what you can
14:30
Speaker 2: say to your child when your child says, I didn't
14:32
Speaker 2: eat it, and you've checked with everyone else in the house,
14:34
Speaker 2: and you know that nobody else did. It was only
14:36
Speaker 2: that child that was home, and it somehow managed to
14:39
Speaker 2: get eaten in the time that you were out, and that.
14:41
Speaker 3: Child was the only one at home. You can just
14:43
Speaker 3: say something like, well, I've never seen that happen before.
14:45
Speaker 2: I've never seen the chocolate eat itself and put its
14:48
Speaker 2: wrapper in the bin when no one else was home
14:49
Speaker 2: except for one person.
14:51
Speaker 3: That's miraculous. Like you can make light of.
14:54
Speaker 2: It, you can keep it nice and gentle, but you're
14:56
Speaker 2: sending a really clear message I've never seen it happen before,
14:59
Speaker 2: because it just doesn't stack up. There's no parsimonious reason
15:03
Speaker 2: for this to have happened other than we've got some dishonesty.
15:06
Speaker 2: And I think the most important thing in spite of
15:08
Speaker 2: those fun alternative ways of dealing with dishonesty. I think
15:12
Speaker 2: the most important thing is just to explain the impact
15:14
Speaker 2: on the relationship. When we do that really gently, really
15:17
Speaker 2: softly and kindly.
15:18
Speaker 3: When we say to our kids, if you lie to me,
15:22
Speaker 3: I can't believe you.
15:23
Speaker 2: If I can't believe you, we don't have a relationship.
15:25
Speaker 2: I have to follow you everywhere, I have to check
15:28
Speaker 2: up on you all the time. It makes life hard
15:30
Speaker 2: for us all. When we explain the impact on the relationship,
15:33
Speaker 2: the costs to the relationship, our kids get it eventually,
15:38
Speaker 2: but more than anything, for Emma and anyone else who's
15:40
Speaker 2: got a child who's lying, it's important to highlight that
15:43
Speaker 2: so long as we treat our child with love, with unconditionality,
15:47
Speaker 2: and continue to teach them gently and patiently, they grow
15:52
Speaker 2: out of it. Lying is to a very large degree
15:56
Speaker 2: an issue of age and inexperience and immaturity, And as
16:01
Speaker 2: they become more experienced and more mature, it's true that
16:03
Speaker 2: they'll still lie about some stuff.
16:05
Speaker 3: Plenty of about lessons, and plenty of adults still lie
16:07
Speaker 3: about things, but the.
16:08
Speaker 2: Lies will not be as destructive to relationships. If we
16:12
Speaker 2: get this right in the early years.
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Speaker 4: For me, I think that regardless of what the challenge
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Speaker 4: is that we're having with our children, the number one
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Speaker 4: thing to focus on is the relationship. At the moment,
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Speaker 4: we're talking about lying, but it's actually about trust. That's right,
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Speaker 4: and everything that we I guess are challenged by with
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Speaker 4: our children comes down to having that relationship of trust,
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Speaker 4: a trust that you've got their best interest at heart,
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Speaker 4: that you love them no matter what, and that you're
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Speaker 4: going to do everything in your power to keep them safe.
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Speaker 4: And so if we can kind of just take the
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Speaker 4: heat of the lying and focus more heavily on the
16:55
Speaker 4: relationship and building that sense of trust, then hopefully, over
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Speaker 4: time lying actually becomes obsolete. It no longer plays a
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Speaker 4: part in your relationship because your children just know.
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Speaker 3: Exactly well, Emma.
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Speaker 2: We really really do hope that this has been a
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Speaker 2: helpful conversation as we seek to offer some gentle guidance
17:18
Speaker 2: in dealing with an eight year old who has a
17:21
Speaker 2: flexible relationship with the truth. The Happy Family's podcast is
17:24
Speaker 2: produced by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media.
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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive
17:27
Speaker 2: Producer, and for more information about making your family happier,
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Speaker 2: we'd love for you to join us at happy Families
17:32
Speaker 2: dot com dot au or on our Facebook page at
17:34
Speaker 2: doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families