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Where Your Treasure is: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

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You're listening to Beyond the Sermon, the podcast of First
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Methodist Church in Collingswood, NJ.
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Our goal is to not only share our sermons, but to go beyond
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the sermon in conversations about what we're learning and
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what God is doing in our lives and our community.
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You can find out more information about our church at
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fumccollingswood.org. Thanks for joining us for this
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conversation. So I figured since our series is
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on money that I can live go through the balances on my
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church credit card one by. 1 by 1.
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Because I have to give it to William, and I need to give it
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to William today. So #1 local.
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Sheesh. Well, that's all cut.
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Now we can start back to our favorite game or only game and
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let the church say and this card I think lines up with with the
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sermons this week. So.
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Uh oh. It's OK for married couples to
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have secret bank accounts. No, I rebuke that.
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I also rebuke that. I thought you're going to say
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separate bank accounts, and while I don't think it's ideal,
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I I can understand that one. But then a secret came out.
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No, no, no, no, no. Yeah.
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Nope, I. Don't even know how that would
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be room for conversation on that one.
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Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's weird, very
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weird to me. Make your argument for the ideal
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separate bank accounts, or it's ideal not to have separate bank
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accounts. Yeah.
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I mean, I think when we talk about marriage, we're talking
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biblically, right, about two becoming 1.
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And I think that needs should is best if that includes every
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aspect of life and finances like them, hate them, whatever there.
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It's a major part of life. I feel like in those areas, the
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two should become one as well. Yeah.
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And finances are tricky because it's what second largest calls
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for divorce, I think, yeah, probably.
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I think kids is first or things regarding kids.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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I mean, even in our our wedding that we had in Mexico, part of
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the ceremony is the ceremonial coins where it's like like the
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his and hers and then it becomes one and then we put all the
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coins together. In little case.
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It's at my office if you're ever curious of looking at Mexican
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marital coins. OK, interesting.
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They're in my office. They're not worth anything.
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So don't try and steal from the church.
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If they were, I would say please try and steal from the church.
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Sure. You towed an interesting line
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that I don't think I've seen from the pulpit before, or at
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least not the way you attacked it.
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I would say when we're looking. At calling me a heretic.
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No, no, no, I'm implying you're a heretic.
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No, it's the, I don't know, it was really, really well done,
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but I want to make sure that people don't lean into the part
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that they liked because it's, you hear no tithing.
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We don't have to like hyper focus on 10% anymore.
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Yippee. And then it's genital.
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I'm feeling really generous with my 1%.
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And that's what Pastor Scott said.
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Like, yeah. Well, did you notice when I said
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that? You know, I'm not against
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tithing, I just don't think it goes far enough.
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There was like an audible suck in of air in the room.
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So people were like, oh, where's he going to go with that?
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And I think people thought I was going to set like some higher
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benchmark that they were supposed to read, which clearly,
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if you've listened to the sermon, was not my goal.
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Yes and yeah. I think it's one of those things
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that I've seen it go, yeah, where where people then switch
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to the generous, which is supposed to lead us into more
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intimate relationship with God and what he wants us to give and
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not feel limited within our giving.
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But then I think some people it's like, well, whatever I feel
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I can spare. If I give $1.00 more than what I
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feel like I can spare, then to me that's generous.
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And it's not really a generous heart.
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It's a how much can I keep for myself?
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Right, right. That's that's kind of the bare
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minimum mentality. Yeah, but if you give the extra
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dollar, then it's generous because it's more.
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I'm just saying I. I hear you.
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Been around people that have that have attempted to use that.
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But on the other side of that, you know, I've heard of churches
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who when you want to become a member, they're like, all right,
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bring in your pay stub and we're going to calculate together what
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10% is. And that's what we're going to
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expect from you at a minimum. Yep.
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And that is not, not, not not, I think, in line with Jesus and
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Paul's teaching. Yeah, in the.
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Giving with a generous heart and not under compulsion.
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I think it's the the Korean Methodist Church like in Korea,
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not like the Korean American where when they do tithes and
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offerings they like take up the amount and it's announced how
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much each person has given. Oh wow.
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On the spot in front of everybody and there's a viral
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video of a pastor that was doing like what I hate when it like
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get business terms. Was it like a campaign for
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trying to reach a certain goal? Yeah, like a capital campaign.
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Capital campaign and at one point he was like ushers close
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the doors. We're not leaving until we reach
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this certain amount of money. And so we've definitely seen
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within our culture and abuse in regards to finances when it
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comes to the church. And so people are like, OK, you
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want us to give generously or some give us 10% and say it's to
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God, but we feel like from our perspective, we're giving it to
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man. And you even acknowledge that
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like people think the more in the plates, the more in your
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pockets. Yeah, and that's not true.
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No, you and I split that money, right?
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No, it's not true, but it's already set.
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It doesn't change how much. No, my my 2009 Highlander is
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proof. Of that and so I want to I want
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you to touch on what and where could be counted towards giving
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back to God because I think normally it's like restricted
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and viewed as like it has to be. Given to your local church.
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Yes, yeah. And so is that all?
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Is that the like that's the tithings and then everything
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else is just charitable and it's still what we're called as
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Christians. Like if people gave, you know,
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half of their what maybe they, if they're used to the tithing
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concept, say they've been doing tithing all these years and they
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give half of it to Christian nonprofits or even other
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nonprofits, and then half to the church because, yeah.
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Could you touch on that? Yeah, I think for me, where I
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come down on it, and again, this isn't, you know, there's no
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chapter in verse. This is what you should give to
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your local church, that kind of thing.
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And I don't have any problem with the people supporting
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Christian nonprofits, missionaries, other ministries,
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things like that. We do it, you know, part of our
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giving goes to support specific things outside of the local
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church. That said, I do think we have a
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responsibility as as a part of a local church to give the
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majority of what we're giving to our local church.
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I think we should support the ministries church involved in,
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you know, the, the staff that the church has hired, you know,
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all that kind of stuff. And if we don't feel like with a
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clear heart, we can do that. There are deeper conversations
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that need to happen, you know, and, and that's why I mentioned
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at least once in the sermon of Sunday, like we're, we talked
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about giving and we talked about money, because it's an issue of
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discipleship, right? And and if there are things
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going on within your church or things they're not doing or
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whatever that you feel like you can't give to your local church,
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although that's a conversation that needs to happen because
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there's clearly some disconnect between what you feel called to
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and what you see happening in the church or vice versa.
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And so I think those things should be talked about honestly,
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confidentially. You know, I don't think it's a
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stand somebody up in front of the congregation and ask them
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why they aren't giving a larger percentage of their giving to
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the church. But, you know, there, there are
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people who have come to me and said with everything that's been
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going on with the United Methodist Church, with the
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changes that have been made at the General Conference level,
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with the things we see happening within our own annual
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conference, we can't in good faith give to the United Method,
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give to our church as a United Methodist Church.
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And I get that. I get it.
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You know, I think there are some people I've been able to have
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some conversation with and help them see, you know, what they
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give to the local church, where that actually goes and how much
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of that actually goes to the annual conference, which is not
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much at this point from our local church.
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And so, but I think those are our conversations we need to
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have so that we can all grow together.
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But I certainly don't hold it against anybody who says, you
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know, I really have a passion for, you know, this foreign
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nation or people group somewhere around the world.
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And so part of my giving, I feel like God has told me needs to be
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supporting Christian workers in those areas.
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Absolutely. You know, and maybe that can
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happen through our local church. Maybe maybe at this point it
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can't, you know, And so I think that would be my basic answer.
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But those are those are things people have to wrestle through
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as a family and figure out. If anyone in our congregation
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was going to be struck dead by God for their sin, who do you
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think's most? Likely top three, me and then
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you. That's true.
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Teachers are judged worse. Yep, and I'm not going any
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further than that. You ever hear a sermon on
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Ananias and Sphera before? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, OK, I've heard. But it wasn't, yeah, like I
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said, I think you handled it very well because people do
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focus more on the giving or the amount of giving versus the
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lying and deceiving and their heart behind the trying to look
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more righteous by doing similarly to who was it that?
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Barnabas. Barnabas, but he had a different
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name. Joseph.
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There you go. Where has God convicted you in
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regards to your finances before and you've had to make
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adjustments? Well, two things kind of come to
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mind. I think the biggest way I've
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felt convicted about money in the past has been in going out
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to eat. And how many times, you know,
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you're out and about and it's just easier to stop and grab
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something and pick it up and, you know, eat on the road or
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stop for a few minutes or whatever.
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And then realizing, you know, how much more that costs than a
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meal at home, buying groceries, all that kind of stuff.
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And, and realizing that, you know, there's a place for going
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out to eat. It's not wrong to go out to eat,
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especially, you know, you want to do something special, you're
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celebrating your fellowshipping with people, whatever.
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But the times when you're just out and about, maybe there are
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some better ways you can. That's how I felt.
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I'm not saying it for other people.
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I'm not trying to put that conviction on other people, but
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for me, that's one place where God has spoken to me.
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But the other thing that kind of comes to my mind is I had to
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wrestle when I I entered into pastoral ministry.
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What does it look like for me to be giving to the local church
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that I'm leading? Because, you know, one sense
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it's like, well, why don't you just take a salary reduction?
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Then you payless taxes and blah, blah, blah, blah.
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I'm like, well, that's that kind of misses the point.
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You know, I think, I think giving is supposed to hurt a
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little bit. You know, we're supposed to feel
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it. It's not really generosity or or
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self sacrifice if it doesn't cost you anything.
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And it's kind of like David when he was bringing the temple and
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like the whole administrative center of the Kingdom into
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Jerusalem and he wanted to buy a certain threshing floor, you
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know, where they would thresh the grain, getting, you know,
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the wheat in the chaff and all that kind of stuff.
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Those were often on the top of a hill where the wind could
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actually catch the chaff and blow it.
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And so it's. Like the big fork things, right?
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Yeah, yeah. Where they're like shoveling it
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up and the chaff blows away and the colonel's fall.
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And so he he goes to the guy and he says, I want to buy your land
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so we can build the temple here. And he's like, Oh my gosh, like,
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let me just give it to you. You know, if it's for God and
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Dave's like, no, I'm not going to offer a sacrifice to the Lord
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that cost me nothing because it's not really a sacrifice,
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right? And so, but then the other, it's
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weird, right, as a, as a pastor who gets paid by the church to
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give back to the local church. And so that's where we felt like
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there were some other things we wanted to be financially
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invested in as well in our giving.
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And so that's where we, you know, choose to do our our extra
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giving because we still feel like it's important for us to
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give to the local church because we believe in the mission of the
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local church. We support the local church.
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And I don't know how I could ever stand up in front of people
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and preach A sermon like I did yesterday if we didn't give to
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our local church. Yeah, so.
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Yeah, I think the the dynamic as a pastor has definitely shifted
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things and made things weird. I'm still adjusting.
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Even just the concept of like using church money for things,
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for ministry took me a long time to do because I was like, I
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don't want the church to have to pay for this like right.
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And like it's my idea to spend this money for the youth or for
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the whatever, but like they should have to pay for my my
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ideas. Yeah.
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And sometimes there's a sense in which it's like, well, if I was
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just a member of the church, I would just pay for this.
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Yeah, Yeah, I would just buy it and donate it and yeah, you
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know, be done with it. But it's past our.
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We can't. There's only so far we can take
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that. Yeah, no, no, I think, I think
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Ron gave me the advice of would you be doing it if you didn't
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have this job? Would you be paying for it?
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And so that's been my kind of like my benchmarker of like,
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well, now I wouldn't, right. I wouldn't be paying for that.
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I wouldn't go here, I wouldn't go wherever if I didn't have
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this job. And so that's been been helpful
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and. For instance, there have been
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times I've gone out for a meal with people who needed, you
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know, an opportunity to talk to me and around the table is a
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better opportunity than coming into the office or whatever.
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And that's been ministry and, you know, submitted that receipt
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to my pastoral discretionary fund, blah, blah, blah.
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There have been other times where I've invited someone out
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to a meal just because I wanted to invest in them or whatever,
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like a young person or whatever and, and I just pay that because
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that was my choice and would probably be my choice whether I
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was in this role or not. Yeah, just to.
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Give some practicality to that. For some reason, it's always a
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steakhouse. Yeah, yeah.
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It's been an interesting shift. And yeah, I think during COVID I
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found myself, I don't know, there was just like a 2 month
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period where I was just up till 1:00 AM.
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The algorithm had me every ad is exactly what I wanted and and
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they were always on like 70% off.
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And so how do you not how do you not get all the I'm basic.
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I'm basically getting paid is how I viewed it.
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Yeah. I mean, I was getting convicted
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and luckily at the time, Rebecca was more of the sugar Mama.
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This is pre kids. And she was like, you got to you
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got to take a step back on the spending and I was like, OK,
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done. And then I just didn't buy
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anything for months. Like it.
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Yeah, because I just assume we have infinite money because
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you're a nurse. And then I think that might have
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also birthed the financial went challenge that I'm sure I've
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mentioned before, but. Yeah, but tell us about that
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we've. Been podcasting for almost 4
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years now, yeah, with almost 9000 lessons and so maybe people
19:16
haven't heard that far back, which is ridiculous.
19:20
Anyway, I just came to terms like a month ago that I'm
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technically a podcaster, which is.
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Yeah, I keep getting emails from people who are like, your
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podcast has has more episodes than most podcasts ever get.
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You know, we we'd love to partner with you and improve
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your metrics and monetization. I'm like, it's not really what
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I'm in it. For yeah, yeah, we're, we're the
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anti podcaster podcasters, which I think is great.
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I like that press anyway. So this financial challenge I
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did and and some of our young adults had done years ago was
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essentially that you stock up on.
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Toiletries, house cleaning, all that kind of stuff that you
20:04
don't really buy super often. And then after that you don't
20:09
spend money on anything besides gas, utilities and bills.
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So if you already have like a subscription service or
20:17
whatever, you keep that. So like subscription bills, gas
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and groceries? Notice he didn't say food
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because it included not going out to.
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Eat Yes, I see it has to be at a grocery store and obviously
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medical, if you have any medical apps, whatever.
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And so, yeah, you do that. We did that for all of land.
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I think we did that two years in a row.
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And it's just a great reset of like the I don't actually need
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that. It's a want and not a need.
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And you can you can get crazy. We, you know, have a little more
20:47
fun with the grocery budget, but then you even realize like, oh,
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we can have really nice food at home and still save tons of
20:55
money. And so unless you have 4.
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Boys. I just say you do the too good
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to go Amato Bros the bread thing and he just.
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You're eating 4 loaves of bread today.
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This is. And so yeah, that was a big help
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and a big shift. And it's also something that if
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you feel like that could be a healthy reset, doesn't have to
21:19
be done at Lent, doesn't have to be done.
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Oh, mate, that sounds good for next year.
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Like you could just do a month, pick a month.
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And yeah, it was, it was very, very helpful, saved a lot of
21:31
money. But then it also just gives you
21:33
healthier habits moving forward. And kind of similar like when we
21:36
do been doing the fasting class this Lent of the just working on
21:42
self-control and then it helps you self-control in other areas
21:45
as well. So yeah, that's definitely one
21:49
thing that I'd highly recommend for anyone that is either
21:54
feeling tighter on money or feeling like I just I'm
21:58
collecting more and more stuff and then it's not satisfying.
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So I get more stuff and then and yeah.
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Kind of another, another thing I've heard suggested that we
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don't, we don't have at this point, but I know some pastors
22:15
do at some other churches encourage it.
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Is that within, you know, your small group or your band or
22:22
whatever, you you set a certain baseline amount that if a
22:30
purchase is going to be over that amount, you don't make that
22:35
purchase without checking with that group?
22:37
Yeah. And, and providing some level of
22:40
accountability and having to justify if you really need it
22:44
or, you know, if you're just kind of spending money for the
22:49
sake of spending money or, you know, whatever.
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And that's, that's always intrigued me, you know, and, and
22:56
each group kind of sets what that limit is because different
23:01
parts of the country, different, different context, you know,
23:02
that's kind of different, but intriguing to me to have that
23:06
kind of accountability in an area that we often tend to
23:13
highly individualize and personalize.
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Like the $74,000 Tyndale Bible from 15.
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I think like 54 that I saw on eBay.
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Yeah, and I told you, no, you can't buy that.
23:27
I. Was like but is there a line
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item in the in the church budget for also?
23:32
No. Artifacts of the faith or I
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don't know. Yeah, I think that's that's a
23:37
great 1. And I think it also kind of
23:40
connects to accountability before the Lord of like praying
23:45
on those bigger purchases, even if you're shooting to have a
23:48
group like that until you get an accountability group like that
23:52
to pray over bigger purchases, even to the minutia.
23:56
I've been learning about self exam and self examination, yeah.
24:00
Is that self examine? Yeah, the self exam.
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Yeah. And my Sacred Rhythms book.
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And it's essentially you might know better.
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I only read it once and did it once, but for me, if I remember
24:12
correctly, it's like looking back at your day or your week.
24:18
It doesn't have to be daily, could be weekly.
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And like literally going through all of the instances, like
24:24
essentially everything that happened and like were you, I
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forget the difference between the two, but one is like, where
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were you not like Christ? Where did you fall short and
24:36
sin? Where could you have been more
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loving and like Christ and where were opportunities that God
24:43
invited you and to do something and maybe you didn't do it?
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Where were times that you did follow through?
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And yeah, I think that could also touch in on the finances as
24:56
well as you're going through and be like, you know, would Christ
25:00
have purchased the, I don't know, double espresso as my
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father-in-law would call it a maca chocolate.
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And you know, you're walking out $12.00 less and all this stuff
25:16
in your body that's probably not best for you.
25:18
At a wrestling tournament recently and there's a little
25:21
stand set up selling 7-8 dollar lattes.
25:25
I'm like. At a wrestling match.
25:27
Yeah. Was it officially Starbucks?
25:30
No, I was like, oh, I don't know what it was, but, you know, and
25:35
that was like the base price. And it just went up from there
25:37
with added things and, yeah, captive audience, you know.
25:41
Yeah. And yeah, water is really good
25:44
for. It is and.
25:45
Three, it is here and also provides a lot of natural
25:50
energy. Yeah.
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And so that's, you know, one of those other shifts that of May,
25:56
but that's more, yeah. Just touching on that more daily
25:58
exam and we've mentioned the Electio 365.
26:03
Yep. Is that what it is?
26:05
Yeah, Electric 265 app, their evening prayer every day is a
26:11
form of the exam and and so if you're interested in trying it,
26:14
that might be a great place to just kind.
26:16
Of yeah, I noticed that, yeah, because we've been doing the
26:20
night time every night for a few months now.
26:23
And after reading that, I was like, oh, did they slip?
26:26
That in there, taking all kinds of that stuff, practices in
26:31
here, that stuff. Just like Theo Davina, they're
26:34
tricking us. Yeah, they're tricking us.
26:36
But but it's it's good And and it's a great introduction to it.
26:40
Yeah. I think if you're reading it,
26:43
yes, it's great. If you're doing the audio
26:44
version, it's not enough time to really go through.
26:47
Yeah. Like it's like ponder back on
26:49
the day of this. They can tell you if you need
26:51
more time, you should pause it, yeah.
26:53
I mean, yes, you can definitely do that for us.
26:56
It's like the we're falling asleep and it's like the phone's
26:59
down and we're not touching it again.
27:01
But yeah, it's, there's a lot of really beautiful disciplines
27:05
that I don't think get enough mention.
27:10
Yeah, 'cause it's just pray, read Bible, pray, read Bible,
27:13
pray, read Bible. But there's so many beautiful
27:15
ways to pray and spend time with God and communicate with God.
27:20
And to even read your Bible, right, like when you're talking
27:22
about Electia, it's bringing the two together.
27:24
And reflect on things with God and.
27:28
Because I think that's the biggest thing, even when it if
27:31
we were just to narrow it down to money and finances, like just
27:36
get a little more intentional about it and ask God and you
27:41
might be surprised at where he takes that.
27:45
Well, that's our conversation for today.
27:47
But that doesn't mean the conversation is over.
27:50
We'd love to hear your thoughts on these topics as well.
27:53
To ask a question about anything we've discussed in this episode
27:55
or to join the conversation, you can head over to
27:59
fumccollingswood.org/podcast. Thanks for being part of this
28:04
conversation.