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Qualifying for medicaid without pre-planning · The Legal Exchange

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  Speaker 1: This is the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky from the
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  Speaker 1: law firm of Cushing and Dolan and Susan Powers of
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the Armstrong Advisory Group. Each week, Todd and Susan will
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  Speaker 1: discuss many topics, including estate planning, how to avoid probate,
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  Speaker 1: and protecting your money from a nursing home. If you
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  Speaker 1: need assistance in any of these areas, or have a
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  Speaker 1: question about another issue that may affect your future, call
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  Speaker 1: to make an appointment. That's eight sixty six eight four
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  Speaker 1: Here are your hosts, Todd Lutsky and Susan Powers.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm Susan Powers,
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  Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and I'm
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  Speaker 2: joined by Todd Lutsky, a partner with the law firm
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  Speaker 2: of Cushing and Dolan with a master's in taxation. Welcome Todd.
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  Speaker 2: How are you? I'm never better in you? I'm great?
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  Speaker 2: Thank you. What do you have for us today? A
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  Speaker 2: couple of things. A couple of things.
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  Speaker 3: We've got a Supreme Court case out of North Dakota. Basically,
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  Speaker 3: the issue is can an attorney, in fact, which is
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  Speaker 3: your power of attorney, amend a revocable trust?
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  Speaker 1: You know?
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  Speaker 3: Do powers of attorney allow that to happen? And that's
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  Speaker 3: sort of what happened here because William C. And Verna
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  Speaker 3: created a trust and then one of them wanted to
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  Speaker 3: amend the trust, but did it by power of attorney.
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  Speaker 2: For the other one.
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  Speaker 3: Oh and they're married, So can you do this? And
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  Speaker 3: does it work? And stay tuned. So it's not just
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  Speaker 3: a case about trust, which I think we're going to
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  Speaker 3: learn a lot from, but we're going to learn a
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  Speaker 3: lot about how a power of attorney really works, and
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  Speaker 3: I think people are not always so clear on that.
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  Speaker 3: Then we head over to Mississippi where we have an
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  Speaker 3: appellate cord case there, which is kind of a really
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  Speaker 3: clear undue influence case in my mind, But the question becomes,
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  Speaker 3: how do you rebut a presumption of a do influence
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  Speaker 3: when someone's accusing you of undue influence in this case,
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  Speaker 3: so we'll see and we'll see that. Also, unfortunately, there
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  Speaker 3: wasn't even a trust done here, it was just a will,
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  Speaker 3: and there's real estate involved in all the problems. With
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  Speaker 3: real estate when you're dealing with a state planning. I
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  Speaker 3: think it's so important to understand how to handle real
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  Speaker 3: estate when you're dealing with an estate plan and folks,
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  Speaker 3: I can tell you this isn't the way to do it.
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  Speaker 3: So we'll come back to all that. But folks, these
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  Speaker 3: are all things that we do from a planning perspective,
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  Speaker 3: but lots of times we could be faced with long
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  Speaker 3: term care nursing home situations and no planning was done.
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  Speaker 3: And if no planning has been done, what do we do.
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  Speaker 2: We don't write the check.
• 2:42
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• 2:45
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  Speaker 3: and things like that to help you protect assets last minute,
• 3:04
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• 3:08
  Speaker 3: for married and single people, which folks, they're treated differently.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: So call get the guide, don't just write to check
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  Speaker 3: eight six six eight four eight five six nine to
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  Speaker 3: nine or Legal Exchange show dot com again eight six
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  Speaker 3: six eight, four, eight, five, six, nine nine, or Legal
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  Speaker 3: Exchange show dot com. Let's head over to where we're going,
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  Speaker 3: North Dakota.
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  Speaker 2: It's cold there, probably not warmer than here though, So
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  Speaker 2: don't you have any Florida cases?
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  Speaker 3: We can well get the Mississippi lator. That's that's better, perfect,
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  Speaker 3: So uh, let's sit over here. So this is canon attorney.
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  Speaker 3: In fact, amend a revocable trust.
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  Speaker 2: So your person, that's your power of attorney. So William C.
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  Speaker 3: And Verna create a joint revocable trust in nineteen ninety seven.
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  Speaker 2: They're married.
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  Speaker 3: And they had two kids, William A. Which is why
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  Speaker 3: I'm telling you William C. And Catherine. The trust had
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  Speaker 3: language in it to hold separate shares for.
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  Speaker 2: Each of them.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, that's normal standard. Upon William's death, it had language
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  Speaker 3: to hold assets in a residual trust kind of like
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  Speaker 3: a remainder share I'm guessing, with language to distribute it
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  Speaker 3: out upon her death. So held for the spouse, and
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  Speaker 3: then when the spouse dies to the kids in a
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  Speaker 3: certain way. Sure well, they both could amend and revoke
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  Speaker 3: the trust as to their own separate shares, but they
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  Speaker 3: could not do the other ones share. Now that kind
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  Speaker 3: of makes sense to me. So we talk about limited
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  Speaker 3: powers of appointment. They probably didn't give each other a
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  Speaker 3: limited power appointment, so when one died, the survivor couldn't
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  Speaker 3: change that person's trust. So maybe which is okay.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe some there's step kids involved here. Maybe it's not.
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  Speaker 2: They're showing kids.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: It could be. Yeah, it could be.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't get that, but you're you're absolutely right, Susan.
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  Speaker 2: It could be.
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  Speaker 3: But okay, so that's really not the issue. But I
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  Speaker 3: just wanted the listeners to understand. So Verna the spouse,
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  Speaker 3: the wife in nineteen ninety eight and nineteen ninety nine,
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  Speaker 3: acting as William sees, her husband's power of attorney, amended
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  Speaker 3: the trust to change the distribution.
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  Speaker 2: I thought you couldn't use a power attorney to act
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  Speaker 2: as someone's.
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  Speaker 3: Trust Jusans, don't get too far ahead of me here.
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  Speaker 3: You're you know, you're smarter than the average Joe.
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  Speaker 2: I guess.
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  Speaker 1: So.
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  Speaker 2: Let's just I thought you were going to say bear.
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  Speaker 2: I thought this was going to be a Yogi Beer reference.
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  Speaker 3: I could have made a Yogi bear reference. So so,
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  Speaker 3: but that's a really good point, Susan. So let's let's
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  Speaker 3: play this out, so she does this in nineteen ninety eight,
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  Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. William C dies in nineteen ninety nine
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  Speaker 3: after the amendments. William Ay dies in twenty seventeen. That's
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  Speaker 3: the son.
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  Speaker 2: The son Okay.
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  Speaker 3: Verna, the wife dies in twenty nineteen, survived by Catherine,
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  Speaker 3: their daughter, her daughter Lauren grandchild number one, and William's
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  Speaker 3: son William S. Okay so child numbered A child. Tony
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  Speaker 3: is his name? Well? Tony files a declaratory judgment saying,
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  Speaker 3: you know who's the beneficiaries here? The trial court found
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  Speaker 3: in favor of Tony that the amendments were valid, they
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  Speaker 3: were validly executed, and that there was a North Dakota
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  Speaker 3: statute that allows for the attorney in fact to amend
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  Speaker 3: the trust, but only if there's express language in it
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  Speaker 3: authorizing you to do that. Well, the court found that
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  Speaker 3: that statue was not applicable because it did not exist
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  Speaker 3: when this trust was formed. That statue didn't come out
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  Speaker 3: until twenty oh seven. Done well, not done. Catherine and Laura.
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  Speaker 3: Catherine the daughter and her daughter Laura appealed YEP and
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  Speaker 3: Tony cross appealed. The Supreme Court reversed the appellate court
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  Speaker 3: or the lower court. They said, since this statute regarding
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  Speaker 3: express authorization did not exist till two thousand and seven,
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  Speaker 3: which it did not, and there were no other statutes
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  Speaker 3: in existence that applied to this case, they decided to
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  Speaker 3: look to the terms of the trust, which makes sense sure,
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  Speaker 3: which did not expressly authorize the power of attorney to
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  Speaker 3: act on behalf of the trust. And they looked to
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  Speaker 3: the power of attorney, and the power of attorney did
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  Speaker 3: not have any express language allowing the creation or amendments
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  Speaker 3: to a trust. And therefore, Tony, you're out because those
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  Speaker 3: amendments were invalid.
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  Speaker 2: So she was including Tony in those amendments.
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  Speaker 3: I don't really know. I just know that Tony's probably
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  Speaker 3: not happy with this result. Otherwise he wouldn't have been appealing.
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  Speaker 2: So how is she able to do it with? Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So let's explain this a little bit, right. So,
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  Speaker 3: I love the fact that they did a revocable trust
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  Speaker 3: that avoided probate. It had the special shares to reduce
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  Speaker 3: the state taxes, you know, the use of the buckets
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  Speaker 3: were there for each spouse. It ensured their wishes, it
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  Speaker 3: avoided probate. I mean, I love that they did that.
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  Speaker 3: I don't want people to overlook the fact that it worked,
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  Speaker 3: and it worked it ensured their wishes were carried out.
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  Speaker 3: Not so easy to just change things. But I also
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  Speaker 3: understand that a power of attorney is designed not to
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  Speaker 3: act on behalf of a trustee. A power of attorney
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  Speaker 3: acts on behalf of an individual to pay bills, access accounts,
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  Speaker 3: you know, do things financially for an individual, not generally
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  Speaker 3: for a trustee. Now, the power of attorney in our case,
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  Speaker 3: you know, does have language in it that says you
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  Speaker 3: can create or fund a revocable or irrevocable trust. So
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  Speaker 3: our powers of attorney have specific language in there, much
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  Speaker 3: like this case demand it. So, but again that's acting
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  Speaker 3: on behalf of the donor, not not the trustee.
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  Speaker 2: Because the trustee can't change how things.
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  Speaker 3: Are right off, that's not up to them, That's right,
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  Speaker 3: And so be very careful, folks, that the power of
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  Speaker 3: attorney is in this case, even in the one I
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  Speaker 3: just explained, it acts on behalf of the donor. It's
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  Speaker 3: the donor who creates the trust. It's the donor who
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  Speaker 3: can amend the trust, not the trustee.
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  Speaker 2: So it can be done.
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  Speaker 3: And even the statute here can be done, but you
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  Speaker 3: gotta do it with this now. Remember, the trust itself
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  Speaker 3: can have language in it that authorizes a power of
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  Speaker 3: attorney to act on behalf of a trustee. You can
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  Speaker 3: put but that needs to be listed in the trust itself.
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  Speaker 2: And that's not standard in your trust right.
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  Speaker 3: I think we do have the ability to do that. So,
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  Speaker 3: but folks, it's very important that you understand the differences
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  Speaker 3: between you know, a power of attorney, a trustee, a donor,
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  Speaker 3: the parties to this plan. But folks, planning is important,
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: but sometimes last minute planning is just as important. If
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: you find yourself faced with nursing home care, don't write
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  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Ludsky, a partner with the
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  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Power is
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group. We've got
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  Speaker 2: much more to come when we return to the Legal
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  Speaker 2: Exchange with Todd Ludsky.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back into the Legal Exchange with Todd Latsky. I'm
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: susan Powers of financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: and I'm joined by Todd Latsky, a partner with the
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan with a master's in taxation.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: You promised we were heading to warmer climates. Thanks for
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: the reminder. M hmm, Mississippi. Will that do all right? Fred?
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: That'll do?
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: Interesting case here undue influence. We know what it is.
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  Speaker 3: We're going to learn again what it is and how
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  Speaker 3: do you fight it?
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  Speaker 2: How do you rebut it? Let's see, so here are
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  Speaker 2: the facts.
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  Speaker 3: Following the death of her husband, Mary created a will
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  Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen which devised the proceeds from the sale
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  Speaker 3: of a home, which is interesting because they probably wanted
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  Speaker 3: it sold equally to the kids if living, or the
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  Speaker 3: grandkids if one is deceased. Seems like a very normal distribution.
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  Speaker 3: Mary continued to live in the home till her health
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  Speaker 3: declined following an auto accident that she had, so Jason
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  Speaker 3: then moved in to help help her out get to appointments,
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  Speaker 3: grocery shopping, et cetera. Twenty seventeen comes along and Mary
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  Speaker 3: executes a power of attorney naming Jason Shocker. Then added
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  Speaker 3: Jason to some joint owners on bank and brokerage accounts.
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  Speaker 3: It's not heading in the right direction, folks. Then in
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  Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, decided to deed the home to Jason. Outright,
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  Speaker 3: that's probably not a good idea. Nothing good ever comes
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  Speaker 3: in his life in your house. How many times have
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  Speaker 3: we said that? Mary called out? Then in twenty twenty three,
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  Speaker 3: Mary says, jeez, you know, I got to call my
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  Speaker 3: other son, Harry, because I feel like Jason is trying
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: to cut access off to my phone, So then Harry
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  Speaker 3: starts helping out with her health care. Then shortly thereafter
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  Speaker 3: they revoke the power of attorney and get Jason off
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  Speaker 3: of it, and Amy, a sibling, and Harry decided to
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  Speaker 3: sue Jason, alleging that he unduly influenced and took advantage
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  Speaker 3: of his mother, and they wanted the deed that they
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  Speaker 3: prepared set aside, so totally undoing. Oh yeah, okay, as
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  Speaker 3: near as I can tell, they didn't say anything in
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  Speaker 3: the fact that she had died. The trial court found
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  Speaker 3: a presumption of undue influence. I don't disagree with that,
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  Speaker 3: and Jason could not rebut it and the kids were
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  Speaker 3: the only ones that testified at the hearing, and therefore
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  Speaker 3: the deed was set aside.
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  Speaker 2: So like it didn't exist.
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  Speaker 3: Like it didn't exist. Well, as you might imagine, Jason
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  Speaker 3: wasn't thrilled with that result. So Jason appealed and he
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  Speaker 3: argued that the court didn't realize it, but he really
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  Speaker 3: did a button the undue influence claim. While the appellate
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  Speaker 3: court affirmed the trial court and basically said, because there
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  Speaker 3: was no evidence or testimony from disinterested parties, you cannot
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  Speaker 3: just rely on your own testimony.
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  Speaker 2: I said, so that's the mom defense because I think
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  Speaker 2: I said so right.
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  Speaker 3: And so remember the only people that testified was the.
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  Speaker 2: Siblings, yeah, saying that you were Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So you can't and you can't just be the only
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  Speaker 3: one saying you're not. You need to have other evidence
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  Speaker 3: to show that you're not. And that what happened here
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  Speaker 3: so good. I think the undue influence argument was successful,
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  Speaker 3: and I think he was a bad person.
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  Speaker 2: Well hopefully my mom disinherited him along the way before
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  Speaker 2: she died.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, we don't have that fact, but they certainly could
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: have gone back to that. So, folks, there was planning
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  Speaker 3: done here, I don't think enough, but better than no planning,
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: which is where you could be when you're faced with
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: long term care. Now, remember long term care planning. Last
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: minute guide for the procrastinators is what this month is.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: It helps people when you enter a nursing home and
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: have done your planning. So even if you've done your planning,
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: you're gonna have assets that are not protected. How do
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: we protect those? And for all of you who have
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: done no planning and are faced with this approach entering
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: a nursing home, how do we protect all of the
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: assets since they're all at risk. Understand there's different treatment
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: for married couples and women and single people. And also
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: it helps you understand countable assets versus non countable assets.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: From homes to vacation homes, to iras to life insurance folks,
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: they're treated differently. Learn how they can be countable or
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: non countable. Don't write the check, get the guide eight
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: six six eight four eight five six nine to nine
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: or Legal Exchange Show dot com again eight six six
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: eight four eight five six nine nine or Legal Exchange
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Show dot com. So what do we learn here? You know,
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: first thing I want to talk about is real estate,
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: because that's what this is all about.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Really, it's a deed, right, it's a deed to a house.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: Now, the first problem is they only had a will.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: You know, this will directing what happens to the real
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: estate doesn't even avoid probate. I mean, just think about
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: that for a minute. That's a problem. That's a big
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: asset going on.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: How many people say, oh, I'm all said, I don't
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to go to probate because I have
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: a will. I have a will. I'm all done.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, please, that's not the answer you know, it
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: doesn't even protect it from a nursing home. Maybe that's
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: something she wanted to do, I don't know, or something
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: other people want to do. Just understand that the will
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: doesn't do that. You know that that's important for a
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: lot of people. But how do you deal with real estate?
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Right? You know, at least in her will, it seemed
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: to say that they were forcing the sale and they
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: were splitting up the proceeds equally.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: So so be it. They got equally. And you're right, Susan,
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: Even though that deed was no good, if she doesn't
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: do something to change her will, Tony still gets an
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: equal piece, So you're right. So maybe Tony should be disinherited,
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: just to keep that in mind, okay, And so at
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: least it's better. You really don't want people fighting over
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: real estate. Again, we've said it before, and in our
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: case we do the same thing in our trusts with
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: real estate, we force the sale. Unless all the parties
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: want it, fine, let them decide. If they don't want it,
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: then it's sold and the assets are split. If anyone
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: wants it, then the other ones can buy out the
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: interest of the ones who don't want it at fair
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: market value again, equal treatment, no fighting, super good. Now
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: we want to prevent You want to always do this
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: because if you don't, you could run into a situation
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: where someone moves in squats and says, I'm not paying
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: any bills.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Now you gotta fight.
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: Now, you got a problem on your hand. Same thing
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: with the vacation home. Right, Oh, I'm just going to
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: use a vacation home, but I'm not going to pay
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: any upkeep. Not a good idea, so you've forced that
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: hand right from the get go. Now let's talk a
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: minute about deating a property directly to a child, which
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: is what she did. Again, folks, really bad idea. Why
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: you know, you give up way too much control? Right,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: Jason could have thrown her out. I don't know if
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: she had a life estate here. You know, at least
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: if you have a life estate, it's less bad. You
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: have the right to live there. But sounds like she
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: had no rights right, So that's bad. So it's even
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: bad for the child. Think about it. If you get
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: the property, you don't get a step up in basis
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: when when the parent dies, which means you could have
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: a much larger capital gains tax to pay than would
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: otherwise be the case, so you always want to think
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: about that. It's not great for tax reasons. Also, what
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: if mom wanted to change who she gave the asset
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: to later, What if Jason moved out in the other
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: kid moved in and started helping her and he wanted
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: she wanted to reward that child for all that child's
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: care and attention and give that child the house. Sorry,
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: can't do it, I gave it away. You know what
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: if you wanted to move, You know, you're still healthy
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: and you want to sell and move and buy another
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: house somewhere else, Well, you don't own it anymore. So
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: not only would you need the kid's permission, all the
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: money would go to the kid. Then you would need
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: the kid to give you back the money so that
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: you can buy the new house.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: And for someone who positioned himself to be sitting sweetly
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: with all your money, he's not giving it back to you.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: He's going he's not even gonna sell it, right, so
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: you know, so you don't want to be in. Of course,
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: there's if the child doesn't live there. You don't even
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: get your capital gains tax exclusion of two hundred and
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: fifty thousand for selling your primary residence as a single
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: person here or five hundred thousand if you're married. Folks,
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: join accounts another bad idea. Why am I voting names
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: on joint accounts right now? Fifty percent of it's exposed
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: to the kid's creditor, plus that kid can go empto
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: the account. Please don't do these things. And this clearly
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: was a classic undue influence. Right move in change everything
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: come out way ahead, folks. That's undue influence at its best.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: So learn planning is always more important. But when you're
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: faced with last minute nursing home situations, you might want
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: to learn how to protect these assets last minute. Get
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: the guide eight six six eight four eight five six
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: nine nine or Legal Exchange show dot com.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner with the
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Powers, a
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and Todd will
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: be answering your listener questions when we return to the
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: From the other law attorneys at Cushing and Dolan. Here's
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: something you need to hear. Most people think long term
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: care planning is something they'll get to someday until suddenly
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: someday is today. When a spouse or parent needs nursing
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: home care and no planning was done, the costs can
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: be overwhelming. Cushing and Dolan our elder law and estate
• 24:09
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• 24:20
  Speaker 1: still be available and what steps you should take before
• 24:23
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• 24:25
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• 24:27
  Speaker 1: right now, time matters. Call Cushing and Dolin today at
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: eight six six eight four eight five six ninet nine
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• 24:37
  Speaker 1: it online by visiting Legal exchange Show dot com. That's
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Legal exchange Show dot com. The proceeding was paid for
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: in The music expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolin.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Pushing In, dolin In or Armstrong advisorymay contact you're offering
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: legal or investment services Cushing In, Dolan In Armstrong Advisory
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  Speaker 1: do not endorse each other and are not affiliated.
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• 25:00
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• 25:00
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  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
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  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or any Armstrong
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  Speaker 1: guide a specific financial, legal or tax advice. Consult your
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  Speaker 1: That's visit USVII dot com. You're listening to the Legal Exchange,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: and it's time for Ask Tod, the segment where Todd
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: will answer your questions about anything and everything that's included
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: in the estate planning process. Once again, here's Todd Lutsky
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: and Susan Powers.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome back, Todd. I have a few questions from listeners
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: for you. First question comes from Elane in mend and
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: mass And. Elaine writes, my aunt created her irrevocable trust
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: with your firm many years ago. She now has stage
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: four cancer and has declined treatment. We need to pay
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: for her twenty four to seven care to stay at home,
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: though I'm not sure how long she will live. She
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: has twenty five thousand in an ira and one hundred
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: thousand in a roth, as well as over a million
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: in her irrevocable trust. What is the best way for
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: us to pay for her care? What happens if she
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: outlives her retirement money? So couple things. Did it say,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: what's in her trust? This is our mutual client. Oh,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: we have a million dollars in the ear of a
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: million in irevocable trust and it's aft I want to say,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: at least ten years. This is our client, our mutual client.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: So we have a couple of we have a lot
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: of options, and folks, I think one of the things
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: we learned from this is we have options.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: When you do planning.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: You have more options when you do planning that when
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: you don't do planning, not that you don't have any
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: you still do. But so in this case, we know
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: we've got a hundred we've got I'm going to assume
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: it says many years. I'm going to assume it's beyond
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: five years.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: It's ten years.
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, So let's you know, we've got a million dollars protected.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: So right off the bat, we're happy campers.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Secondly, we've got one hundred and twenty five thousand outside
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: the trust to deal with, and folks, this is what happens.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: There's always something outside the trust. So we have a
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: couple of options. I mean, if we think, you know,
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: she's really not going to make it more than a
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: a couple of months, like two months.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's it's like stage four, so it could be
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: a couple of months.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: So if it's just two months, Remember the cost of
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: applying for medicaid is expensive.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: She's going to stay home. Oh, she's gonna stay home.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: It's going to stay home. They need to pay for
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: care twenty four to seven.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: Okay, So applying for medicaid is not an option. I
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: just wanted people to know that that could be an
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: option for the general list if.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: It were a longer term stay.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if it was a longer term stay, we definitely
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: would be able to put these dollars away and probably
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: buy a Medicaid annuity for her, and then she's eligible
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: for medicaid. So last minute we can protect these assets.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: So for the general listener, this is exactly what happens.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: Million protected, one hundred and twenty five thousand not protected.
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: You're only allowed to keep two thousand to be eligible
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: for medicaid. She's at one hundred and twenty five, you'd
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: be denied medicaid unless last minute planning. Right, This is
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: what our guide's about. Unless in this case, we probably
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: just buy a Medicaid annuity for her. Shelter those assets.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Learn how these annuities work shelter those assets, and like magic,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: she's immediately eligible for Medicaid. There'll be a lean on
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: the annuity, but not on the million dollars in the trust.
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: So could be a home run.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Here.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: She says, I'm not going to the nursing home, and
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: I don't. I think that's a great idea, right, And
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: I know I have cancer. I know that you know
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: my time is short and there's no reason for me
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: to spend that time in a nursing couldn't agree more.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: So I would just begin with the IRA money. I
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: wouldn't even start with the twenty five. I would begin
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: with the IRA. Oh, the twenty five is in the I.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Twenty five is in the IRA, and then one hundred
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: in a rock.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I would start with the regular IRA money. Why because
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: you know, if it if it's fifteen thousand a month,
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: I got almost two months covered. Money coming out of
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: an IRA is taxable, but if I'm using it for
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: a medical expense, I can get a deduction. So maybe
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: I get a big deduction. And this is not even
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: going to be a big.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Tax, not much from a tax perspective.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: So I would begin there and at the end of
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: two months. When that's gone, I guess then I would look.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: I would look to the wroth. I mean, could I
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: use the money in the trust perhaps.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: But I wouldn't.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: I would just use what's outside the trust it, yeah,
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: and just take it from there. So you know, folks,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: that's that's the answer here. But again, there was really
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: two separate options that you had. One was pay the
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: other was learn how to do things last minute. And folks,
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: that's what this guide is all about, long term care planning.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: For the procrastinator, what can be done for this excess
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: money outside of trust when you're faced with a nursing home,
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: even if you've done your planning. And for folks who
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: hasn't done their planning, obviously, the guide's important because then
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: all the assets are at risk. And what do we
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: do to convert countable assets into non countable assets to
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: get somebody eligible for medicaid from the annuities like we
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: talked about here, pooled trusts come to mind, and just
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: understanding how some assets are non countable and some are
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: countable based on being married and being single. Separate rules
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: for each ones from rental properties to homes to vacation homes,
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: et cetera, iras, et cetera. Folks, don't just write the
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: check when you're faced with long term care. Learn what
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: you can do last minute. Get the Guide eight sixty
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: six eight four eight five six nine nine or Legal
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: Exchange Show dot com again eight six six eight four
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: eight five six nine nine or Legal Exchange Show dot Com.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Our last question comes from Gina and Weston mass And
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Gina writes, my mother recently met with an attorney to
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: discuss protecting her assets. He advised her that she didn't
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: need a trust, and instead he transferred her home to
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: me and my brother without our knowledge. It wasn't until
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: she mentioned adding us both to her investment accounts that
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: we found out about this and hit the brakes. Is
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: there anything that can be done to reverse the transfer
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: of the home. She's in great health and is only
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: seventy two, and I think she needs a second O pay.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she needs a second or third or fourth opinion, folks.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: This is almost like the example we had with the
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: case earlier in the program right where the undue influenced
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: child probably convinced mom to give away the house. I'm
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: not saying this was just necessarily Mom's doing, but for
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: a lot of people. That's what they do. You know,
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: they feel like this is a great thing. I'm gonna
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: help my kids. I'm gonna feel good. I get the warm,
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: fuzzy feeling in my stomach, and boy it's bad. So
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: so yeah, I mean it sounds like they've got they've got,
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: you know, a family that gets along.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: So if they have a family that gets along, you
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: know they're saying, can we can we undo this? You
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: absolutely can. You kids that you now know you own
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: the house, you can just deed the house back to mom.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Now, are there gift tax issues?
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: I probably would take the position well, first and foremost,
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: you have the ability to gift fifteen million dollars and
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: not pay tax, and not pay any tax. So I'm
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: not worried about gifting backup a million dollar home or
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: whatever it is. I'm not worried about the gift tax.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Worst case scenario, there's none due. You technically would have
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: to file a seven oh nine and use up some
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: of your exemption, but none's due. So even if you're
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: audited later, none would be due. There'd be no interest
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: in penalties. I'm not telling you not to file, but
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: in this case, I think putting it back. You can
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: simply make the argument that Mom didn't really mean to
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: give away the house, and we're just putting it back
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: to where it belongs. Mom was given bad advice from
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: a lawyer and she was or from whoever, an accountant
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: or whoever it was from an attorney or an attorney,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: and you know, given bad advice and she just relied on,
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: you know, the expert's opinion. They don't know, So I
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: think you'd be fine. I don't think there'd be any
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: any problem there. So, so, yeah, give it back.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: What would you recommend in this case, because I'm assuming
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: that you know, she wanted to protect her assets, What
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: would be the better alternative for mom in this case,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: if she truly wants to protect her assets rather than
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: giving it away.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. We talked about
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: all the negatives in the case earlier about when you
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: give it away control, creditors, can't sell it, can't buy,
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: can't I mean, you're really putting yourself at risk, and
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: you don't want that. So when we do, when we
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: represent a client, we represent the client, not the kids.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: And so, but in this case, she's only seventy two
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: and healthy. Yep. No, I would say that money of time.
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: I would say that this is a basic estate planning
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: case where we would set up a Medicaid air revocable trust.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: We would take the house and put it in there.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Now I don't know how much other money. They talked
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: about her investment accounts, but you know, rather than put
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: those in the kid's name or put joint names on
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: those accounts with the kids, all bad ideas, yep. Because
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: again it's her money should be used for her to
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: live comfortably the rest of her life. So I would
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: talk to her about, well, how much of that do
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: you want to put in the trust? Because you can
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: put some of it in the trust and get it
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: protected and leave some out so you have complete access
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: to it. Not that you lose access to it when
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: it's in the trust, but at least it's protected there.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: So we would have that discussion. So the house, for sure,
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: probably some of the money, depending on how much it is,
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: would go in the trust, and that would start the planning.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: So folks call and get the guide, because if you
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: don't do it last minute, the assets are at risk
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: eight six six eight four eight five six nine nine
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: or legal exchange show dot com.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: If you have a question you'd like to ask Todd,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: visit his website Legal Exchange Show dot com and click
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: on the ass Tod tab. Maybe I'll be able to
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: read your question on the air, and hopefully his answer
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: will stop you from becoming one of his next real
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: life stories. You've been listening to Todd Lutsky, a partner
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: with the law firm of Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Powers,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group. We'll be
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: back with more after this quick break on the Legal
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: From the other law attorneys at Cushing and Dolan. Here's
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: something you need to hear. Most people think long term
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: care planning is something they'll get to someday, until suddenly
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: someday is today. When a spouse or parent needs nursing
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: home care and no planning was done, the costs can
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: be overwhelming. Cushing and Dolan our elder law and estate
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: planning attorneys who help New England families protect their homes, savings,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: and retirement even when a health crisis comes out of nowhere.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: They've just released a new guide called long Term Care
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: Planning for procrastinators. It explains what options may still be
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: available and what steps you should take before writing that
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: first check to a nursing home. If you've been putting
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: this off, or a loved one needs care right now,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: time matters. Call Cushing and Dolan today at eight six
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: six eight four eight five six ninet nine to get
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: your free guide. That's eight six six eight four eight
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: five six ninety nine, or you can request it online
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: by visiting Legal Exchange Show dot com. That's Legal exchange
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: show dot com. The proceeding was paid for in The
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: music expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Pushing
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: and Dolin in or Armstrong advisorymay contact through offering legal
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: investment services. Cushing and Dolan in Armstrong Advisory do not
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: endorse each other and are not affiliated.
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: This is Michael Valila, adjudant of the Disabled American Veterans
• 38:13
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• 38:20
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• 38:40
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• 39:40
  Speaker 4: This is Chuck Zada from the Armstrong Advisory Group. One
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: of the biggest mistakes you can make is you prepare
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: for retirement is missing important deadlines for SOLI Security and Medicare.
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: You can apply for SOLI Security up to four months
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: before you want benefits to begin. Medicare has a seven
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: month enrollment window around your sixty fifth birthday. Missing that
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: window may cause coverage delays. Something else to consider is
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: that you don't have to start them at the same time.
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: You can enroll in Medicare at sixty five but delay
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: social Security to increase your monthly benefit. Learn more in
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: our new guide called how to Apply for Social Security
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: and Medicare. To get your free copy, calls say at
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: eight hundred three nine three for zero zero one. That's
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: eight hundred three nine three for zero zero one, or
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: request the guide online from our website Armstrong Advisory dot com.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group a
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or in any
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Armstrong guide a specific financial, legal or tax advice. Consult
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: your own financial, tax into state planning advisors before making
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: any investment decisions. Armstrong may contact you to offer investment
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: advisory services. Your tune to the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: If you are a loved one needs a nursing homestay,
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: call Todd right now at eight sixty six eight four
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: eight five six nine nine and let him make sure
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: your assets are protected. That's eight six six eight four
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: eight five six nine nine, or visit him online at
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Legal Exchange show dot com.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Welcome back into the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky. I'm
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Susan Powers, a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group,
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: and I'm joined, of course by Todd Lutsky, a partner
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: with the law firm of Cushing and Dolan with a
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: master's in taxation. So, Todd, your guide this month is
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: all about long term care planning for folks that have
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: kind of put things off right. So I was brought
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: to think about this guide this week because I had
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: a conversation with a client. They have been caring for
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: mom at home. I'm not unsimilar to Elaine and her
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: aunt where she's caring at home. So Mom is has
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: been home for a couple of months and they have
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: been paying for care to come in and care for her. Okay,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: they did it with a you know, like a proper
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: firm where they're you know, paying for that home care.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: And then they switched to like a cheeriatric care provider,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: a real provider. Yeah, but then they switched to some
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: private care nurses there are friends of the family, so
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: they were paying them cash basically, but they weren't doing
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: it themselves. They were not doing it themselves, got it.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: But they're paying these folks cash so because it's a
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: much lower rate by paying them for that. Sure, what
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: happens now if Mom has to go into the nursing home. Yeah,
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: and they've given away assets because at one point they
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: were paying for family members to do it. How is
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: that treated? So it's probably start to finish. It's probably
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: one hundred thousand that they've paid for Mom's care, some
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: of it with you know, a company that you know,
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: they have receipts and everything for they've kept track of everything,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: but some of it is definitely family members here and
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: there to come in and do things.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: So the private people were not just friends of the family,
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: they were actually family members.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: That were some of them were. Yes, so there were
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: some problems or so it was friends and no family,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: but there's definitely family that has been stepping up to
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: help out.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: So a couple of things. Let's say of thee hundred
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: thousand dollars for fun, that fifty thousand of it went
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: to a geriatric care provider, absolutely no problem, great with that.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: They will be payment for services rendered, not a gift,
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: not a disqualifying transfer, payment for services rendered. For the
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: piece that was private to let's say twenty five thousand,
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: half of what's left went to this person who was
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: not a family member but was like a registered nurse.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: You're probably going to have to show, you know, checks
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: or something that you were paying this person. If you
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: can justify that, yes, these were checks written, you know,
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: because there's we're just going to see money coming out
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: of an account, they're not going to know what it's for.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: So if you can show that the money coming out
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: of the account went to pay for services rendered to
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: a stranger, YEP.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: And they do have logs because there's a couple of
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: them that rotate through.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: So I think as long as you can show that
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: that's where it went, that twenty five thousand would not
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: be a problem. Okay, now we're off to the family members,
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: the family members who got twenty five thousand who rotated
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: through and provided care. If there was no personal care
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: contract in place, and there was not, and there was not,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: then hard stop. I mean, they are not going to
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: care that you said you paid the family member for
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: services rendered, just like you paid the private nurse. Why
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: isn't that the same? Well, because it's not the same,
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: because the state will say though those efforts were done
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: out of love and affection, not for earned income, and
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: it wasn't reported on anyone's tax return it was. I mean,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: you need the contract to convert the love and affection
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: side of the equation to a real service provider. Without that,
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: you're going to have a twenty five thousand dollars disqualifying transfer,
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: which is going to create either a five year lookback
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: period or you're going to have to run through a
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: penalty period. Calculation. Folks, get the guide when you're faced
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: with entering a nursing home last minute. This guide actually
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: runs you through the look back period. It explains how
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: to calculate a penalty period if you've made a disqualifying transfer.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: It talks about how maybe a half a loaf technique works,
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: that might be a better way to go. It explains annuities,
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: pooled trusts, and ways to treat countable and non countable
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: assets from homes to rentals to vacations, yes, life insurance, iras, folks.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: These are all treated differently, and they're treated differently for
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: married couples and single people. Some of these assets are
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: non countable right off the bat, So don't just write
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: the check when you're faced with nursing home care, call
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: and get the guide eight sixty six eight four eight
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: five six nine nine or Legal Exchange show dot com
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: again eight six six eight four eight five six nine
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: nine or Legal Exchange show dot com.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: So they currently have around fifty thousand left of her assets,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: can you walk us through how that penalty period works
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: and what the options would be at this point?
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: So if they have fifty thousand left, still outstanding, still outstanding. Yeah,
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: Let's assume for the moment that none of the other
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: transfers were just qualifying. Let's assume for a moment that
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: they were all for services rendered. Okay, So if we're
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: sitting here with fifty thousand dollars outstanding, and is this
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: a single person? It is, So with fifty thousand dollars outstanding,
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: what would you do? She's only allowed to keep two
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: two thousand otherwise you know, you're ineligible for medicaid. So
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: and let's hope other assets were protected. So there's really
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: a lot more we're protecting here.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: But there is. There's actually a house that's probably worth
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: a million in an irrevocable trust that she did with
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: you years ago.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: Oh wonderful. So what will we do? I mean there's options.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, with fifty thousand dollars, you're welcome to private pay.
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: I mean it's it's a lot of money. But if
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: you want to save that.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: But they've been paying a lot of money, you know,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: yeh to stay at home more than the nursing home.
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: So then I would say, I would say, yeah, let's
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: try to let's try to stop the financial bleeding.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: How old is she seventy two? Money? No she is?
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: I want to say seventy six or seventy seven?
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: Good?
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Good?
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: So under eighty that's fine.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: So at that age, I would probably look to an annuity,
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: not a pool trust.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: In this case. Pool trusts are great ways of saving
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: assets last minute, but generally therefore much older people or
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: people that have a much larger amount of assets to protect,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: in which the annuity numbers wouldn't work out because they'd
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: have too much.
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: Too much coming in than the cost, more than the cost.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: So that's when you look towards a pool trust, older
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: and larger numbers. Here, you know, at seventy seven, I'm
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: going to buy a medicaid annuity. The annuity needs to
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: be termed certain means it needs to pay out, not
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: longer than her life expectancy. So we go look to
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: a table and the table tells us, you know, for
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: a seventy seven year old, it's probably ten years.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: So life expectancy by the table, not how long she's expected.
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: To live, not her health could be on her deathbed.
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: The annuity is the table. So a ten year annuity,
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: let's say, and it's irrevocable, non assignable, and when you
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: buy it you need to name the state as the
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: designated beneficiary. Now we have the Dermody case here in Massachusetts,
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: which is a Supreme Court case, basically saying if you
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: follow these rules, yep, it makes the asset non countable.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: So that's good.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: People don't love the Dermody case for other reasons, but
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: I think it's a good decision and it helps people
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: with certainty. So now, as long as we name the
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: state as the designated beneficiary in the first position, so
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: when she dies, there's a payback for whatever's left in
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: the annuity. But remember, by getting on Medicaid, you're going
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: from sixteen thousand a month or more to about sixty
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: five hundred a month Social Security of two, so you're
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: at forty five less. It's annuity payment of maybe one.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: Now you're only at thirty five hundred dollars on the.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: Lean, so it's a big savings, right, and so considering
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: they couldn't even get a week's worth of care at
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: home for that amount, right, So it is a way
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: to slow the bleeding and immediately get eligible for Medicaid folks.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: That annuity technique is defined in this guide, along with
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: the pooled trust like I talked about, and a great
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: explanation of how countable and non countable assets exist, which
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: ones they are, and how to save assets last minute
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: when you're faced with the nursing home call and get
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: the guide eight six six eight four eight five six
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: nine to nine, or go to our website download it
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: there Legal Exchange Show dot Com. Todd Leutsky from the
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing and Dolan, thank you so much.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Susan. Always a pleasure. I'm Susan Powers, a
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group. We thank you
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: for joining us today and we'll be back again next
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: week on the Legal Exchange with Todd Lutsky.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: From the other law attorneys at Cushing and Dolan. Here's
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: something you need to hear. Most people think long term
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: care planning is something they'll get to someday, until suddenly
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: someday is today. When a spouse or parent needs nursing
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: home care and no planning was done, the costs can
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: be overwhelming. Cushing and Dolan are elder law and estate
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: planning attorneys who help New England families protect their homes,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: savings and retirement even when a health crisis comes out
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: of nowhere. They've just released a new guide called long
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: Term Care Planning for Procrastinators. It explains what options may
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: still be available and what steps you should take before
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: writing that first check to a nursing home. If you've
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: been putting this off, or a loved one needs care
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: right now, time matters. Call Cushing and Dolan today at
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: eight six six eight four eight five six ninet nine
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: to get your free guide. That's eight six six eight
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: four eight five six nine nine, or you can request
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: it online by visiting Legal Exchange Show dot com. That's
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: Legal exchange Show dot com. The proceeding was paid for
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: in the music expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolan.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Pushing and Dolin in or Armstrong advisorymay contact through offering
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: legal or investment services. Cushing and Dolan in Armstrong Advisory
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: do not endorse each other and are not affiliated.
• 52:00
  Speaker 5: Social Security and Medicare are oftentimes lumped together, but may
• 52:03
  Speaker 5: be handled separately, and depending on your strategy, they could
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: shape your entire retirement plan.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: HI.
• 52:08
  Speaker 5: This is Mike Armstrong from the Armstrong Advisory Group. Choosing
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: when to start social Security has many effects, including determining
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: the amount of guaranteed income you receive each month. Medicare
• 52:17
  Speaker 5: decisions go beyond coverage as they can impact premiums, out
• 52:20
  Speaker 5: of pocket costs, and access to providers throughout retirement. Our
• 52:23
  Speaker 5: new guide is called How to Apply for Social Security
• 52:26
  Speaker 5: and Medicare. It will help you learn how these decisions
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: may fit together and how to take the right steps
• 52:31
  Speaker 5: at the right time to build a secure retirement plan.
• 52:34
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  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
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