Latest / UK Column Radio / Africa's Unknown High Speed Railway Network | Jerm Warfare

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Africa's Unknown High Speed Railway Network | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:30
Speaker 1: My name is Jim. This is Germ Warfare, the Battle
0:33
Speaker 1: of Ideas. You came onto my show. I think I
0:37
Speaker 1: was at T and T Radio at the time, and
0:40
Speaker 1: you and another gentleman chatted to me about a railway
0:44
Speaker 1: network around the African continent is being constructed but pretty
0:49
Speaker 1: much nobody knows about it.
0:52
Speaker 2: Yes, it was a great discussion we had, and that
0:55
Speaker 2: was with a bar Indian colleague of mine called christophin
0:58
Speaker 2: daire GigE, and we explaining that this is a very
1:02
Speaker 2: little public publicized You know, when you start talking about railways,
1:09
Speaker 2: people tend to switch off unless.
1:11
Speaker 3: They're railway geeks.
1:13
Speaker 2: So I thought, well, if we could try and capture
1:15
Speaker 2: your audience by talking about something different entirely, we could
1:20
Speaker 2: talk start the conversation by talking about optimism. And optimism
1:26
Speaker 2: is the most deadly weapon that you can use against
1:30
Speaker 2: the ruling ruling system, because it's deadly. If you inspire
1:36
Speaker 2: optimism in a population, you inspire creativity. If you inspire pessimism, negativity,
1:44
Speaker 2: pessimism is a death spiral. Optimism leads to enhance creativity.
1:51
Speaker 2: So you're saying, nobody nobody has heard.
1:54
Speaker 3: Of this railway. You're quite right.
1:57
Speaker 2: I've spoken to many people about it, and the very
2:03
Speaker 2: very few people have heard about it, understand about it,
2:06
Speaker 2: understand the significance. It's the most significant infrastructure project that
2:11
Speaker 2: there is currently ongoing globally. So I've spoken to Nigerian's
2:19
Speaker 2: these are high level politicians, people in government in Nigeria.
2:25
Speaker 2: I've spoken to some very high level people in South Africa.
2:30
Speaker 2: Neither had any knowledge of this project, which is most
2:36
Speaker 2: peculiar and it shows the complete lack of political will
2:40
Speaker 2: in those two countries. In particular that I happen to
2:44
Speaker 2: be doing some interviews with Ethiopian state broadcaster called OBN
2:51
Speaker 2: the Fantastic Network actually, and this was three years ago.
2:57
Speaker 2: During the TPLF previous government of Ethiopia. The TPLF tried
3:06
Speaker 2: to start a civil war to retake power. A TPLF
3:10
Speaker 2: completely backed by the West. Anyway, wonderful country, magnificent country, Ethiopia.
3:17
Speaker 2: They won the media war or the lies, the disinformation
3:20
Speaker 2: that were being said about them. So I was on
3:22
Speaker 2: this program to talk about the situation. And there were
3:27
Speaker 2: two guys, this interviewer and behind him was the technical
3:32
Speaker 2: man doing the camera and the set up. And they
3:34
Speaker 2: both looked on the screen and they sort of looked
3:37
Speaker 2: behind me and they both looked at the map on
3:40
Speaker 2: the wall behind me and.
3:41
Speaker 3: They said, ah, the railway.
3:44
Speaker 2: So that's a fantastic indication of where this is all going.
3:49
Speaker 2: You've got high level people in Nigeria, high level people
3:52
Speaker 2: in South Africa, and I absolutely sat about it. You've
3:56
Speaker 2: got an interviewer in Ethiopia and his cameraman and they
4:00
Speaker 2: immediately recognize the map on the wall. That demonstrates that
4:06
Speaker 2: Ethiopia is forward thinking, which it is. You know, it's
4:12
Speaker 2: doing absolutely magnificent things and it's putting it into the
4:15
Speaker 2: population's mind. This is the point I'm trying to make.
4:20
Speaker 2: So you've got the Ethiopian government saying, look, this is
4:23
Speaker 2: where we want to head. We want to head as
4:26
Speaker 2: a super modernized, industrialized country, and the railway network is
4:30
Speaker 2: the place to start. Whereas in countries like South African Nigeria,
4:35
Speaker 2: you have this this perpetuation of pessimism, you have a
4:41
Speaker 2: perpetuation of all the negativity.
4:45
Speaker 1: Can I can I add to what you're saying about Ethiopia.
4:49
Speaker 1: The international airport is I think now the biggest on
4:52
Speaker 1: the African continent, and I've been there a few times
4:56
Speaker 1: a constantly wins awards now for you know, best one
5:00
Speaker 1: of the best airlines.
5:01
Speaker 2: Absolutely, they're doing such incredible things to them They've planted
5:07
Speaker 2: or with something like four point five billion trees in
5:11
Speaker 2: the last four years, you know, to combat desertification on
5:16
Speaker 2: an environmental level. They're doing incredible things. Culturally, they're doing
5:21
Speaker 2: amazing things with education. They have I mean they have
5:29
Speaker 2: done wonders that government of abamed have done. Absolutely wonders.
5:34
Speaker 2: They really are. They're starting a number of what they've
5:37
Speaker 2: already started, a number of manufacturing bases. They are well ahead.
5:42
Speaker 2: They are really well ahead in terms of so many
5:45
Speaker 2: things compared to the rest of the continent. And of
5:49
Speaker 2: course they were the very first country to complete the section,
5:54
Speaker 2: the international section of the electrified speed railway line from
6:01
Speaker 2: Addis Ababa to Djibouti. Jibuti is the neighboring country, and
6:06
Speaker 2: they were the very first country to do it in
6:08
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen.
6:11
Speaker 1: And it's part of the Belton Road Initiative.
6:14
Speaker 2: Very good friends with China, very good friends with China,
6:17
Speaker 2: which is one of the reasons that they are doing
6:20
Speaker 2: so well and one of the reasons that that whole
6:24
Speaker 2: episode with the TPLF was started up by the West.
6:28
Speaker 1: China is helping countries build, and the US is helping
6:33
Speaker 1: countries stay in chaos.
6:38
Speaker 2: China, we must always remember China opened the doors. So
6:43
Speaker 2: going back twenty eighteen, the first FOCC summit, it was
6:48
Speaker 2: actually held in South Africa, the Forum for Chinese African Cooperation,
6:55
Speaker 2: and at that summit, which was really historic, people described
6:59
Speaker 2: it as the actual end of colonialism. A lot has
7:04
Speaker 2: happened since, you know, the whole bri the Belton Road
7:08
Speaker 2: Initiative drive has in many ways had the guts taken
7:14
Speaker 2: out of it because of Western intervention. But China opened
7:18
Speaker 2: the doors to the concept of building win win partnerships
7:23
Speaker 2: with African countries. Rather than going in and extracting their minerals,
7:28
Speaker 2: they've gone in with a win win and said, look,
7:30
Speaker 2: we want you to rise up on an equal basis.
7:34
Speaker 2: You know, very much a concept of the bricks alliance.
7:38
Speaker 2: So China opened the doors.
7:40
Speaker 1: Yeah. That thinking is if you have infrastructure, then we
7:43
Speaker 1: can also profit from it.
7:46
Speaker 2: And they want they want the consumer base, the African
7:48
Speaker 2: consumer base, so they want people in Africa to be
7:52
Speaker 2: trading with them, and many countries in Africa have increasing
7:57
Speaker 2: amounts of trade with China. I don't know this, but
8:00
Speaker 2: I know it's really is the place to be looking
8:04
Speaker 2: at when you say about America, So America a building
8:09
Speaker 2: We must get back to explaining about the railway by
8:12
Speaker 2: the way we've we've gone out from that. But America
8:15
Speaker 2: building the Libita Corridor, which is a corridor from Angola,
8:20
Speaker 2: Libito and Angola to d r C. And it is
8:24
Speaker 2: purely an extraction corridor. It's to get the rare earth
8:27
Speaker 2: minerals from d r C out to the maritime port.
8:34
Speaker 2: So but that corridor is being built, So see it
8:38
Speaker 2: that way, that corridor is being built. In terms of
8:44
Speaker 2: the difference between how the West and how China and
8:47
Speaker 2: Russia operate within the continent, it is very much as
8:53
Speaker 2: you say, there is a complete lack of political will
8:58
Speaker 2: to to mean flee develop anything on the continent. You know,
9:04
Speaker 2: the International Monetary Fund, the tool of the ruling oligarchy.
9:08
Speaker 3: Western oligarchy.
9:11
Speaker 2: Have for decades subjected countries to vast amounts of debt.
9:18
Speaker 2: The projects that they have run are in many cases
9:24
Speaker 2: completely meaningless towards the physical economy. Whereas you have China
9:29
Speaker 2: coming in and saying, actually they ask governments China ask governments,
9:33
Speaker 2: what do you want us to build? So, like Angela said,
9:36
Speaker 2: we want a super modern city, so they put a
9:40
Speaker 2: load of building. I've seen it in Mozambique, a load
9:42
Speaker 2: of residential complexes, places where people can live. Or governments
9:47
Speaker 2: say we want we want, you know, a wrestling stadium
9:51
Speaker 2: like they wanted in Sudan. So China build the wrestling stadium.
9:54
Speaker 2: So this kind of thing happens a lot. So China
9:57
Speaker 2: actually asked them what do you want us to build?
9:59
Speaker 2: And then the government will say whatever.
10:02
Speaker 3: So that whole the whole.
10:04
Speaker 2: But the concept of a of a of an equal partnership,
10:08
Speaker 2: a win win, is completely absent with the West, and
10:11
Speaker 2: it is there with China.
10:14
Speaker 1: Well, soirking back to the railway line, correct me if
10:18
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. It's called the African Integrated.
10:21
Speaker 2: It's the African Integrated high Speed Railway Network. So so
10:27
Speaker 2: I'll just break it down because that title is is
10:32
Speaker 2: so every every word in the title is so important.
10:35
Speaker 2: So it's the integrated. Integration means to make whole, to unite.
10:42
Speaker 2: So the concept is to unite. The high speed means
10:48
Speaker 2: it's going to be super modernized. You can only have
10:50
Speaker 2: high speed with electricity. Electric lines. You can't use diesel,
10:55
Speaker 2: so that's putting everything on a on on another econom level,
11:01
Speaker 2: another economic league. The whole idea is to join the
11:08
Speaker 2: continent up, to join every country on this connective network.
11:16
Speaker 2: It's absolutely beautiful. It's just such an incredible concept. It
11:22
Speaker 2: was devised in twenty thirteen, so we're going back a
11:26
Speaker 2: very long time, yes, or the NEPAD and it's the progress.
11:38
Speaker 2: So we are never told much, definitely not in the
11:44
Speaker 2: Western media, the good news. And I wanted to come
11:48
Speaker 2: back to that subject of optimism. You know, here in
11:51
Speaker 2: the UK we used to be able to watch Chinese
11:54
Speaker 2: state broadcast as CGTN and it was just a very
12:01
Speaker 2: very interesting thing that ofcom our regulator banned them. There
12:06
Speaker 2: was no obvious reason other than they said that it
12:10
Speaker 2: was a state broadcaster of a communist country. Well it's
12:13
Speaker 2: a lot you can say about that, but they banned
12:16
Speaker 2: them because it was an incredibly positive and optimistic news channel.
12:20
Speaker 2: You know, you'd watch the news, you'd see the bad
12:23
Speaker 2: things happening around the world, but you'd also see the positive,
12:27
Speaker 2: the good, the optimistic, and you know that whole thing,
12:32
Speaker 2: like you would often see updates on the network on CGTN.
12:37
Speaker 2: We can no longer watch it along with Russia today,
12:39
Speaker 2: which was another very good news channel. So okay, So
12:46
Speaker 2: getting back to the original concept in twenty thirteen. So
12:51
Speaker 2: since then, well, let me first get the map out
12:56
Speaker 2: and then you can just see if I hold it,
13:01
Speaker 2: there we have.
13:05
Speaker 3: Can you see that clearly?
13:07
Speaker 2: So we've got the outline, which is basically a series
13:13
Speaker 2: of corridors traversing the continent which link up all major regions,
13:22
Speaker 2: all major cities. There's three corridors going down, and there's
13:27
Speaker 2: six going east west, three north south and six going
13:32
Speaker 2: east west. Then there's this wonderful, in my opinion, corridor
13:39
Speaker 2: going around the coastline of the continent. I must just
13:45
Speaker 2: make a point, Germ. Something which is widely not grasped
13:51
Speaker 2: is the scale of the continent. Well, one of the reasons,
13:58
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm dyslexic, so I can never get camera angle.
14:02
Speaker 3: But here we go.
14:03
Speaker 2: Here's a map of the African continent, which is a
14:07
Speaker 2: scale the size of the countries. So into Africa you
14:15
Speaker 2: can put the entirety of America, the entirety of China,
14:23
Speaker 2: Eastern Europe, India, Italy, Germany, France, and Spain. That's how
14:32
Speaker 2: big the continent is.
14:34
Speaker 1: And yeah, let me add, let me add to what
14:37
Speaker 1: you're saying. So if I fly to Dubai from Simon
14:43
Speaker 1: Cape to on some rather the very bottom tip of Africa,
14:47
Speaker 1: and if I fly to Dubai, it's not quite a
14:50
Speaker 1: straight line up, it's a little bit off to the side.
14:54
Speaker 1: But that flight on its own is nine hours. Yeah,
14:59
Speaker 1: I mean that that as a very long flint and
15:01
Speaker 1: that's just basically crossing the African continent exactly.
15:05
Speaker 2: And the reason why people don't understand how big it
15:09
Speaker 2: is is because we've got the Marketer projection. This is
15:12
Speaker 2: the map of the world that we're all familiar with,
15:15
Speaker 2: and it's called the Marketer projection. And what that does
15:18
Speaker 2: is it gives an incorrect indication of the size of
15:22
Speaker 2: the African continent. It's actually twenty six percent of the
15:28
Speaker 2: global land surface, so it's you know, it's vast. So
15:36
Speaker 2: what that leads to is a misunderstanding.
15:41
Speaker 3: Or I would say, in the case of.
15:45
Speaker 2: Decisions made in the EU and elsewhere in the West
15:50
Speaker 2: that put eurocentric, they project Eurocentric ideas on the continent.
15:57
Speaker 2: You see it happening all the time with energy, So
16:00
Speaker 2: the entire Green Deal. The renewable energy policy that is
16:05
Speaker 2: inflicted on Africa is applicable in places like Europe where
16:12
Speaker 2: the countries are very small. It works, it can work,
16:16
Speaker 2: you know, but if you put that into African countries
16:21
Speaker 2: that are vast, it isn't going to work. So that
16:26
Speaker 2: often happens, and it happens with energy. So the other
16:29
Speaker 2: thing with logistics and transport, the scale and size of
16:33
Speaker 2: countries is very widely misunderstood. Give some examples. You know,
16:43
Speaker 2: Tanzania is twice the size of France. The Democratic Republic
16:52
Speaker 2: of Congo's second largest on the continent, is five times
16:57
Speaker 2: the size of France. It's the same size as Western Europe.
17:02
Speaker 2: So widely misunderstood. So the importance of the railway network
17:08
Speaker 2: in terms of size comes into play because you then
17:11
Speaker 2: realize you are actually having to connect such a vast,
17:16
Speaker 2: vast land mass. The whole purpose of it being high speed. Okay,
17:23
Speaker 2: so recently I heard very disconcerting news from the African
17:29
Speaker 2: Union that they were talking about downgrading it from high speed.
17:34
Speaker 2: The reason they were talking about that is because of
17:36
Speaker 2: a lack of energy. So with speeds of one sixty
17:41
Speaker 2: to one eighty, you need to be electrified.
17:43
Speaker 3: You can't do that with diesel.
17:46
Speaker 2: And as you know, you know, the energy deficit across
17:52
Speaker 2: most of the continent is dire, a huge lack of energy.
17:59
Speaker 1: I mean the black arts, which we in South Africa
18:02
Speaker 1: called load shedding or commonplace. It's part of our lives.
18:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I'll give you a frightening statistic. So sub
18:15
Speaker 2: Saharan Africa has roughly it has changed now over the
18:22
Speaker 2: last few years, but it has roughly the same energy
18:26
Speaker 2: consumption as Spain did that sinking. I mean, can you
18:34
Speaker 2: believe it? I mean it is almost actually unbelievable. fIF
18:40
Speaker 2: of that is produced in South Africa. Eight of that
18:46
Speaker 2: is produced from coal. So you have put that whole
18:51
Speaker 2: renewable energy drive into perspective when you are telling South
18:55
Speaker 2: Africa to stop using its coal what you're doing.
19:00
Speaker 3: Isn't that ridiculous? Isn't it ridiculous?
19:02
Speaker 1: But anyway, it's absolute, It's absurd, It's absurd.
19:05
Speaker 3: Yeah.
19:06
Speaker 2: So along along with that chronic energy deficit, you have
19:11
Speaker 2: a chronic infrastructure deficit. DRC is one of the most
19:19
Speaker 2: energy infrastructure deficit countries in the world. So they have
19:25
Speaker 2: every mineral known to mankind twenty seven trillion twenty four
19:31
Speaker 2: trillion in untapped resources, and yet they have the worst
19:35
Speaker 2: infrastructure deficit in the world. That's perspective, I wonder why exactly.
19:43
Speaker 2: So the thing is, okay, if you if you maintain
19:51
Speaker 2: that situation, as we were talking about previously, if you
19:54
Speaker 2: men maintain the status quo of underdevelopment countries not being industrialized.
20:01
Speaker 2: I mean, South Africa is the most industrialized country on
20:04
Speaker 2: the continent and as you will well knows, it's in
20:09
Speaker 2: a terrible state.
20:14
Speaker 3: You said it, not me.
20:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that whole drive to stop industrialization has been
20:22
Speaker 2: has been a directive. We mentioned this previously with the
20:26
Speaker 2: Kissinger Report. So what this railway network should do, what
20:33
Speaker 2: it what it will do in time to come, is
20:37
Speaker 2: it will change the whole face of African economies. I
20:43
Speaker 2: mean you don't have to be a really smart person to.
20:48
Speaker 3: Work it out.
20:49
Speaker 2: You don't have to have a degree or or or
20:52
Speaker 2: be an expert on anything to look at it and say, yeah,
20:56
Speaker 2: if you have a if you have this this whole
21:00
Speaker 2: project up and running, it will change everything economically and
21:07
Speaker 2: put it into an entirely different league. I mean, it's
21:11
Speaker 2: common sense, isn't it? Is it common sense to you
21:14
Speaker 2: but I wanted to mention. You know, in the UK,
21:17
Speaker 2: people concentrate on a high speed line that is supposedly
21:23
Speaker 2: being built called the AHS two. This is to go
21:27
Speaker 2: from London up to the North to Manchester. It's cost billions,
21:31
Speaker 2: it's billions of a budget. They don't seem to be
21:32
Speaker 2: getting anywhere with it. So you have a UK audience
21:37
Speaker 2: who are viewing high speed railway in a very negative
21:41
Speaker 2: light because the HS two is only going to give you,
21:45
Speaker 2: I think fifteen minutes shorter train journey, and our railway
21:49
Speaker 2: network is a mess anyway, so you have a very
21:52
Speaker 2: negative view of it.
21:54
Speaker 3: But if you look at countries.
21:55
Speaker 2: Like China and what China has managed to achieve over
22:00
Speaker 2: the last ten fifteen years in terms of economic development,
22:06
Speaker 2: it is really quite incredible.
22:09
Speaker 3: The basis of this is.
22:10
Speaker 2: Their high speed railway network, which as you will know,
22:14
Speaker 2: is completely traverses all of China, connects all the regions.
22:19
Speaker 3: Very very.
22:21
Speaker 2: Incredible program that they've done, and they've done the opposite
22:24
Speaker 2: of the West. They've concentrated on the physical economy. They've
22:30
Speaker 2: concentrated on mega infrastructure, on creating energy, on connecting cities
22:37
Speaker 2: and connecting people. This foresight, this vision is why they
22:44
Speaker 2: are so successful, why their economy is doing so well.
22:49
Speaker 2: So it's not just China. I mean this happened in
22:52
Speaker 2: America with the Andrew Roosevelt, the amazing railway network that
23:00
Speaker 2: they built. Then it's a no brainer to say rail
23:05
Speaker 2: is the cheapest, most efficient way of transporting goods and people.
23:09
Speaker 2: Freight covers the cost of the passenger rail, so the
23:13
Speaker 2: passenger rail isn't actually profitable. It's the freight that covers
23:16
Speaker 2: the cost for the passenger rail. The original networks, they
23:21
Speaker 2: were all for the extraction of minerals, all of them.
23:25
Speaker 2: So this is a game changer, this one because it goes,
23:31
Speaker 2: you know, right into the interior. Previously, you just had
23:35
Speaker 2: if you had a map of the nineteen sixties seventies
23:39
Speaker 2: railway networks across the continent, they were just bleeding out
23:43
Speaker 2: to the coastline. But you know, getting back to passenger Okay,
23:48
Speaker 2: I heard that. I was looking for it and I
23:50
Speaker 2: couldn't find it, but I heard I saw this video.
23:54
Speaker 2: It was in I think it was in joe Burg
23:57
Speaker 2: in South Africa and one of the South African Railway guys.
24:03
Speaker 2: I can't remember who he worked for, but he was
24:05
Speaker 2: a state guy, and he was talking about transforming, changing
24:11
Speaker 2: the some of the stations, and he said the most
24:16
Speaker 2: wonderful thing. It really stopped me in my tracks. He said,
24:20
Speaker 2: the most important thing about our railway system is that
24:24
Speaker 2: it gets people to work. We want to design a
24:27
Speaker 2: railway system that gets passengers to where they want to
24:31
Speaker 2: go as quickly and comfortably as possible. And that is
24:36
Speaker 2: such an important concept. I know they've done it in Namibia.
24:41
Speaker 2: They had an outlying town. A lot of people in
24:44
Speaker 2: those towns in that town were going to Vintoc to
24:47
Speaker 2: get work, but they were having to go by car
24:51
Speaker 2: on the road. There were a lot of traffic accidents,
24:54
Speaker 2: a lot of time wasted waiting in queues. It's and
25:01
Speaker 2: the Namibian government said, no, we miss We must put
25:04
Speaker 2: in a section of railway so that people in that
25:07
Speaker 2: town can get to the city faster, cheaper, more safe,
25:13
Speaker 2: more comfortable. And that facilitates the economy. Because human beings
25:20
Speaker 2: are the basis of the economy, are they not. So
25:24
Speaker 2: if you are transporting people more efficiently, more comfortably, more
25:30
Speaker 2: and cheaper to their place of work, you are facilitating
25:34
Speaker 2: the economy. It's a it's a really important concept and
25:38
Speaker 2: I love that that that your South African railway guys
25:41
Speaker 2: said that it was it was really so important. So
25:44
Speaker 2: passenger rail it's not just a you know, it's not
25:47
Speaker 2: just people's sight seeing. And I mean, god, can you
25:50
Speaker 2: imagine going on that one that goes around the coastline,
25:52
Speaker 2: that that railway line that goes around the coast of Africa.
25:57
Speaker 2: What an amazing trip that would be take you months,
25:59
Speaker 2: by the way, I think hit in no weeks. But
26:03
Speaker 2: it's not about tourism. It's not about sightseeing. It's not
26:06
Speaker 2: about any of that. It's about facilitating the East with
26:10
Speaker 2: which people can interact.
26:13
Speaker 1: An author, Chris Wldberger, South African who now lives in Kenya,
26:18
Speaker 1: was on my podcast a few days ago, and he
26:23
Speaker 1: talks very highly of the high speed rail network in Kenya.
26:27
Speaker 1: I think it's between Mumbai and Vasa. I think, I think,
26:30
Speaker 1: why have I got it wrong? Abia biggy part Mumbai
26:33
Speaker 1: is in India. Yes, I don't think that. I don't
26:36
Speaker 1: think that would work too well.
26:39
Speaker 3: Maybe they'll do it one day.
26:40
Speaker 1: But yeah, but there's an interesting underlying thread here. He says,
26:46
Speaker 1: at the one station, there's this big statue of a
26:49
Speaker 1: samurai which obviously is not Kenyon. That is Chinese people
26:53
Speaker 1: often bring up the discussion around debt traps.
27:01
Speaker 3: You know, it makes me laugh.
27:04
Speaker 2: They had the funeral of the whole debt trap narrative
27:09
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, because it needs a funeral.
27:13
Speaker 3: So what.
27:15
Speaker 2: Happens is people are told that the railway is inaffordable.
27:21
Speaker 2: You cannot afford to build this railway because it will
27:23
Speaker 2: put you further in debt to China or to whatever
27:26
Speaker 2: a country is helping you build it. Now, that is
27:31
Speaker 2: such a pessimistic way of looking at anything, because if
27:37
Speaker 2: you build that railway, you are going to put the
27:42
Speaker 2: country onto another economic league anyway, So that when you
27:46
Speaker 2: look back in fifteen years time, fifteen ten years time
27:50
Speaker 2: at the changes, the qualitative changes that that has made
27:55
Speaker 2: on the economy, you will laugh because people were saying, no,
27:59
Speaker 2: we could and afford to build it. That that whole
28:03
Speaker 2: mentality is totally is totally, is totally incorrect, because you're
28:09
Speaker 2: going you are transforming your economy. The debt trap thing
28:14
Speaker 2: is it's really propaganda. It's propaganda against the Brexit's propaganda
28:19
Speaker 2: against China. It's not just China you're building. Actually Turkey
28:22
Speaker 2: are doing amazing things Portuguese company, Motor Angle, Yuppie, Mckerze,
28:28
Speaker 2: Turkish company. There's a lot happening internationally, a lot of
28:33
Speaker 2: construction engineers from all across the globe. We're working on
28:37
Speaker 2: projects in Africa, not just China. But yes, that whole
28:42
Speaker 2: debt trap narrative. You have to understand that if you
28:47
Speaker 2: only work with the status quo, you will have what
28:51
Speaker 2: is the UN's absolute favorite thing, and that's called sustainable development.
28:57
Speaker 2: What is sustainable development? I love likening it to one
29:03
Speaker 2: of those plastic yellow ducks, you know, the ones that
29:06
Speaker 2: you get for a child to bob around the bathtub.
29:10
Speaker 2: So that plastic yellow duck epitomizes the concept of sustainable development.
29:17
Speaker 2: It can't dive under the water because too it's a
29:21
Speaker 2: plastic duck, and it can't fly because it's a plastic duck.
29:25
Speaker 2: All I can do is go around the bathtub. And
29:28
Speaker 2: that's exactly what sustainable development is.
29:31
Speaker 3: You weary.
29:32
Speaker 2: Miss Eveni, President of Uganda, likened it to a pregnancy
29:37
Speaker 2: because he was talking about the concept of sustainable development.
29:42
Speaker 2: So he said, it's like a pregnancy. How can you
29:45
Speaker 2: have a sustainable pregnancy? That's exactly it. That concept of
29:51
Speaker 2: sustainable development is that you stay where you are. You
29:55
Speaker 2: don't go any higher, you stay where you are. You
29:59
Speaker 2: save the planet by bunkering down in a mud hut
30:02
Speaker 2: and drinking out.
30:02
Speaker 3: Of a muddy pool.
30:05
Speaker 2: So it's actually the historical roots of that are Malthusianism.
30:12
Speaker 2: This is coming from Malthusian Thomas Malthus, that whole concept
30:18
Speaker 2: of keeping your population living substandard a you can control
30:25
Speaker 2: them and they die out during famines and natural disasters
30:30
Speaker 2: and all the rest. So it's a Malthusian concept and
30:33
Speaker 2: sustainable development excuse me, it actually comes from a policy
30:40
Speaker 2: called gradualism that Martin Luther King took about. It's always
30:44
Speaker 2: been a policy and it's what actually destroyed the original
30:48
Speaker 2: African Union way back in the sixties and seventies. So,
30:53
Speaker 2: you know, you had people like Kwamean Krumer of Ghana,
30:58
Speaker 2: you had Nasa of Egypt, Secretary of Guinea. You had
31:03
Speaker 2: Mediebakata of Mali. You had been Bella in Algeria. You
31:07
Speaker 2: had a mass of the most incredible minds in African leadership,
31:15
Speaker 2: and their visions were meglomaniacal.
31:19
Speaker 3: You know, they.
31:20
Speaker 2: Wanted they wanted to turn the Sahara into the bread
31:25
Speaker 2: basket of Ava, something Kadaffi wanted to do. By the way,
31:30
Speaker 2: they had these incredibly big visions of changing their their
31:35
Speaker 2: economies very very quickly into industrialized economies, which is exactly
31:41
Speaker 2: what's needed. And what happened was they were opposed within
31:46
Speaker 2: within the original AU, which is the Organization of African Unity.
31:51
Speaker 2: They were opposed by the Monrovia bloc who were pushing
31:56
Speaker 2: for gradualism and this this block was within the OAU
32:01
Speaker 2: were saying no, no, we can't. We can't suddenly have
32:05
Speaker 2: an aluminium smelting plant in Ghana because we don't know
32:10
Speaker 2: how to do it. You know, we haven't got enough
32:13
Speaker 2: energy and we don't know how to do it. We missed,
32:15
Speaker 2: we miss asked the former colonial powers to help us,
32:20
Speaker 2: and Comian Krumer and NASA and the rest of them
32:22
Speaker 2: were saying, we know how to do it, we know
32:25
Speaker 2: exactly what to do. So that that entire us of
32:32
Speaker 2: leadership were gotten rid of. They were assassinated politically or
32:39
Speaker 2: or physically, and the mindset was sent down this route
32:43
Speaker 2: of sustainable development. So the debt trap thing is really
32:47
Speaker 2: part of that mindset. It's to stop anything from going up.
32:53
Speaker 1: Yes, And if you are going to be, for the
32:56
Speaker 1: Sega conversation, trapped in debt, at least have a high
33:02
Speaker 1: speed railway network rather than something from the IMF which
33:05
Speaker 1: gives you nothing.
33:08
Speaker 2: Well, IMF will never fund these things. That's one of
33:10
Speaker 2: the problems. So anyway, China's conditions are far more favorable,
33:18
Speaker 2: far more favorable in terms of the interest percentage. During COVID,
33:26
Speaker 2: they wrote off numerous loans, numerous loans. I want to
33:31
Speaker 2: read you something, you know. Jeffrey Sachs gave a speech. Okay,
33:38
Speaker 2: he was talking. This was about yeah, twenty twenty three.
33:43
Speaker 2: He gave a speech to the AU and the title
33:49
Speaker 2: of the speech was the times are perfect for long
33:51
Speaker 2: term rapid development in Africa, and he said Africa needs
33:58
Speaker 2: a common, integrated, a deep strategy for ending poverty and
34:03
Speaker 2: igniting industrialization. So I'm going to read this to you
34:06
Speaker 2: because it's inspirational and it's what is missing within the
34:09
Speaker 2: whole concept of relations between the EU, between Britain, between
34:15
Speaker 2: America and the African continent. But you see it present
34:18
Speaker 2: with China and Russia and other countries. So he said,
34:23
Speaker 2: what Africa can achieve in the coming forty years is
34:26
Speaker 2: what China achieved between nineteen eighty and twenty twenty, forty
34:31
Speaker 2: years in which the Chinese economy grew roughly thirty five
34:35
Speaker 2: times and went from poverty to a very strong economy. Indeed,
34:39
Speaker 2: by some measures, the largest economy in the world. Africa
34:44
Speaker 2: has the same population as China, and it has the
34:47
Speaker 2: same potential as China.
34:49
Speaker 3: But it requires.
34:50
Speaker 2: Obviously a deep strategy to achieve this kind of result,
34:54
Speaker 2: because what China achieved resulted from a deep strategy is
35:00
Speaker 2: not something that just happened. It's so important because China
35:04
Speaker 2: have been able to lift themselves out of poverty because
35:08
Speaker 2: of this centralized decision making. It was something that was
35:14
Speaker 2: promoted by the Chinese leadership, by the National Development and
35:18
Speaker 2: Reform Commission, by strategists over the course of forty years. This,
35:22
Speaker 2: I think is Africa's challenge. I don't believe this can
35:25
Speaker 2: be viewed as one country at a time, even though
35:28
Speaker 2: each country has a very important role to play, because
35:30
Speaker 2: it will be the cumulative Africa wide process that will
35:34
Speaker 2: carry each of the countries forward, help set improve policies,
35:38
Speaker 2: make financing available, and solve infrastructure problems. African eats an
35:43
Speaker 2: Africa wide power pool. African needs an Africa wide fiber network,
35:48
Speaker 2: African eats and af Africa wide transportation networks, both highways,
35:53
Speaker 2: and I would say especially fast rail. That means no
35:57
Speaker 2: country on its own can accomplish this. These are big
36:00
Speaker 2: projects that require a lot of financing, They require a
36:03
Speaker 2: lot of cooperation between countries. So he encapsulated everything that
36:09
Speaker 2: the railway represents. So in terms of people saying it's inaffordable,
36:17
Speaker 2: it's it's a debt trap, well there's Jeffrey Sachs saying,
36:20
Speaker 2: actually the times are perfect for long term development within
36:24
Speaker 2: the continent, you know, building these railways. In terms of
36:31
Speaker 2: financing and costing, well, I heard very recently that the
36:37
Speaker 2: as countries with Kino, Fasso, Malia, Niger are building highways
36:43
Speaker 2: and they are building their section of this railway and
36:47
Speaker 2: they are not going to be taking any Imir floans
36:49
Speaker 2: to do so, They're going to be building that building
36:53
Speaker 2: that themselves. So it is entirely possible. You think of
36:58
Speaker 2: what Etopier achieved in the construction of the Grand Ethiopian
37:01
Speaker 2: Renaissance Dam. They built the continent's largest hydropower dam and
37:08
Speaker 2: it was entirely self funded. It's possible it's double. Any
37:14
Speaker 2: country can do it with the right political will. You
37:17
Speaker 2: think back to Bikina Fasso under Thomas and Kara, and
37:22
Speaker 2: they had absolutely no loans. They were a pariah state,
37:25
Speaker 2: they regarded as a paria state under Sankara, and they
37:30
Speaker 2: needed to export their manganese because that was a revenue
37:35
Speaker 2: for the country, for the state. So they got down
37:38
Speaker 2: and they built a railway line more or less by hand,
37:41
Speaker 2: but they did it. That was back in nineteen eighty five.
37:46
Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, things can be done. And that's
37:50
Speaker 2: that negativity which is always imposed upon us that says, no,
37:53
Speaker 2: you can't do it. It's a dead trap, it's not feasible,
37:56
Speaker 2: it's not affordable, blah blah blah.
38:00
Speaker 1: Can do this stuff within months, and we're still going
38:05
Speaker 1: to be having this conversation. I fear many years from now.
38:09
Speaker 2: You might be wrong, Jo, because in Tanzania, I'm going
38:14
Speaker 2: to read it to you because it's incredible what they've
38:16
Speaker 2: managed to achieve in Tanzania. And again you know, bear
38:20
Speaker 2: in mind the scale twice the size of France. So
38:25
Speaker 2: what they've done, they have built. So this project Okay, sorry,
38:31
Speaker 2: each country, it's up to each each state to build
38:35
Speaker 2: their section of the line within a domestic master plan.
38:41
Speaker 2: So you have a country like Nigeria, they'll have a
38:43
Speaker 2: modernized railway network in being built. Nigeria are very fortunate
38:51
Speaker 2: and that they have an excellent railway engineer called runand
38:56
Speaker 2: At Cuba who's regarded as the other of the modernized
39:01
Speaker 2: Nigerian railway network. So you have within each country builds
39:06
Speaker 2: it's it's its national network. But then it is up
39:10
Speaker 2: to them to to extend their line to the to
39:15
Speaker 2: the neighboring countries to complete the connectivity of the of
39:19
Speaker 2: the entire project. So anyway, so what Tanzania are doing,
39:24
Speaker 2: so Tangania's role is extremely important because they are completing
39:30
Speaker 2: that section that goes from the Indian Ocean on the
39:35
Speaker 2: eastern side of the continent to the Atlantic on the
39:40
Speaker 2: western side. So they will be going from Doris Salam.
39:47
Speaker 2: It will be possible in the future to get on
39:49
Speaker 2: a modern electric high speed train in Darris Salam and
39:55
Speaker 2: travel across the continent to Congo, Brazzovol and get off
40:00
Speaker 2: your train at Pointe Noir on the Atlantic Ocean. So
40:04
Speaker 2: you you can go from the Indian Ocean to the
40:06
Speaker 2: Atlantic Ocean on a on a on a modernized train
40:11
Speaker 2: and transport your goods. So they have the objective is
40:18
Speaker 2: to get to Brundi, Rwanda and then onto DRC. I
40:23
Speaker 2: don't know if I just flashed this again, if you
40:27
Speaker 2: can see that clearly. So we're talking about this line here.
40:34
Speaker 2: We're talking about this line here, and they have ninety
40:40
Speaker 2: eight percent completed their section. It was built in five stages.
40:47
Speaker 2: Phase one darris Alam to Morogoro. That was three hundred
40:51
Speaker 2: kilometers that's completed. This is all electric, huh, it's all electric.
40:57
Speaker 2: Contruct construction was started in two thousand and seven. That
41:01
Speaker 2: was built by Yuppi mccersey, the Turkish construction company and
41:07
Speaker 2: Motor Angle from Portugal.
41:10
Speaker 3: By the way, you.
41:11
Speaker 2: Know, Yuppi mccursey have done a great thing. They've put
41:15
Speaker 2: on YouTube a progress reports, so they do this like
41:19
Speaker 2: monthly or bi monthly progress report of how they're doing
41:23
Speaker 2: construction wise in Tanzania, and it's such fun to watch.
41:28
Speaker 2: So you can actually follow the line. It's done from
41:32
Speaker 2: Madrone and you can follow the construction of this incredible
41:36
Speaker 2: railway line as it's being built along with all the
41:42
Speaker 2: entire system that it goes with. The bridge construction or
41:45
Speaker 2: the other infrastructure that you have to think of anyway,
41:48
Speaker 2: So you can watch that on YouTube. Yuppy mccerzy just
41:51
Speaker 2: type that. In Phase two Marigoro to Makuteporo Didoma, that's
41:57
Speaker 2: kind of like halfway along Tanzania. That's four hundred and
42:00
Speaker 2: twenty two kilometers. That's ninety four percent completed. Current construction
42:06
Speaker 2: started in twenty eighteen, so you can see it happening
42:09
Speaker 2: very very quickly. Phase three Makutepora to Tabora another three
42:15
Speaker 2: hundred kilometers, that's thirteen percent completed, probably more by now.
42:21
Speaker 2: This I took about two years ago these details. Construction
42:26
Speaker 2: started in twenty twenty two. Phase four Tobora to Isaka
42:32
Speaker 2: Lake Victoria and that's the gateway to Rwanda and Burundi.
42:38
Speaker 2: Construction of that also under Yappi mccersey. Phase five Isaka
42:42
Speaker 2: to Muanza forty seven percent completed at the time I
42:46
Speaker 2: took these details. That is China, Chinese company, China Civil
42:53
Speaker 2: Engineering Construction Corporation.
42:55
Speaker 3: Are doing that.
42:57
Speaker 2: And then Phase six to Tabora, Kigoma to Bora Evenza
43:01
Speaker 2: Kigoma dr C Burundi. So there's like a little circle
43:05
Speaker 2: you can see on the map there's a little circle
43:08
Speaker 2: and that is the line going from Daruslam. One line
43:11
Speaker 2: goes up to Rwanda. The other line, the south line,
43:15
Speaker 2: goes to Burundi. Those then connect in Goma and Bukavu,
43:19
Speaker 2: which are in d C, and go on then to
43:22
Speaker 2: traverse the entire length of dr C and come out
43:26
Speaker 2: at a Republic of Congo, which is another country, not
43:30
Speaker 2: the Democratic Report of Congo, at Point Noire on the
43:33
Speaker 2: Atlantic Ocean. So it's it's mind blowing what Tanzania have
43:39
Speaker 2: managed to chieve. Other things are happening, you know, there
43:42
Speaker 2: are many things happening. We never hear about. Morocco have
43:46
Speaker 2: a high speed train that does three hundred and twenty
43:48
Speaker 2: kilometers an hour. How many people have heard of that?
43:51
Speaker 2: Like nobody, so.
43:56
Speaker 1: No but Morocco. I mean it is techniquely Africa. But
44:01
Speaker 1: when we talk about Africa, we generally are referring to
44:05
Speaker 1: what's below the sahorror ah.
44:08
Speaker 3: We shouldn't do that, should we? And they didn't used
44:11
Speaker 3: to do that.
44:12
Speaker 2: I mean, NASA is in Egypt and I'm so sorry too,
44:18
Speaker 2: but absolutely there's always this division between Black Africa and
44:23
Speaker 2: Arab Africa. And of course it never was like that.
44:26
Speaker 2: You had people like Nasa and ben Bella and it
44:29
Speaker 2: never even entered their heads. That never even entered their heads.
44:33
Speaker 2: I want to tell you what the other country's doing.
44:35
Speaker 2: Amazing things. So you've got Morocco a section of super
44:41
Speaker 2: high speed three hundred and twenty three hundred and twenty
44:43
Speaker 2: klumeters an hour, and that is a fantastic line called Albarrack,
44:50
Speaker 2: the trains called Albarrack. You can catch all this on YouTube,
44:54
Speaker 2: just tap it in and there are loads of videos
44:57
Speaker 2: out there. Don't always believe what they're saying. They sometimes
45:00
Speaker 2: get their information wrong, but you can, you can, You
45:04
Speaker 2: can pick up a lot of stuff. There other countries
45:07
Speaker 2: which are doing great Kenya, the Nairobi Mambassa line, Uganda
45:13
Speaker 2: doing a lot, Guenisia, Moroccos. We mentioned Egypt. Massive amounts
45:18
Speaker 2: happening in Egypt and.
45:19
Speaker 1: Also in South Africa. They are about to start the
45:22
Speaker 1: Cape Town part of the high speed network.
45:25
Speaker 2: Oh good, fantastic. That's good news coming out of South Africa.
45:29
Speaker 3: Isn't it?
45:30
Speaker 1: I alluded to this earlier. China gets us done very quickly.
45:33
Speaker 1: This whole blueprint is what like forty.
45:35
Speaker 2: Years it needs to happen. Now we have we haven't
45:38
Speaker 2: got forty years. I mean the continent does not have
45:42
Speaker 2: it doesn't have thirty years. You know, the thing is
45:49
Speaker 2: right that this whole this whole network can be fast tracked.
45:56
Speaker 2: There was a feasibility study commissioned Roland Attikuba, the father
46:03
Speaker 2: of the Nigerian modernized railway system. He was commissioned by
46:08
Speaker 2: Orderneepad to come up with the feasibility of fast tracking
46:14
Speaker 2: the network. And he did that, an entirely workable and
46:18
Speaker 2: feasible project and he said it's not be achieved within
46:21
Speaker 2: twelve years. So it is doable. It's completely possible, and
46:26
Speaker 2: the continent doesn't have forty years to wait.
46:30
Speaker 3: You can't.
46:30
Speaker 2: You look at the demographics. Most people are under the
46:33
Speaker 2: age of forty. How much employment is there, you know,
46:36
Speaker 2: in South Africa, how much productive employment is there in
46:39
Speaker 2: so many of the countries. You're on your own, you
46:42
Speaker 2: make your own business. You can't go and work in
46:45
Speaker 2: a factory. So industrialization of those countries is not supplying jobs.
46:54
Speaker 2: Employment not leading to you know, stable steady incomes. So
47:00
Speaker 2: don't have time. We really don't have time to waste.
47:03
Speaker 2: And of course the longer people are living in non
47:08
Speaker 2: industrialized economies. The longer you will have civil wars, you
47:13
Speaker 2: will have wars, you will have all sorts of things
47:16
Speaker 2: happening related to poverty, because poverty, of course, is the
47:20
Speaker 2: key driver to it all.
47:22
Speaker 1: When I was in China last year, I had the
47:25
Speaker 1: great pleasure of traveling across to Shinjiang, which is the
47:29
Speaker 1: province that is the heart of the Belton Road initiative,
47:32
Speaker 1: and in fact I went all the way to the border.
47:35
Speaker 1: We do cash car, which is part of the historical
47:42
Speaker 1: Silken Road, Salken Road, Silk Road, what do you call it? Network,
47:48
Speaker 1: and now the Belton Road, and you have to be
47:53
Speaker 1: there to understand the scale. It's very, very difficult for
47:59
Speaker 1: me to put into words how massive that project is
48:03
Speaker 1: and how efficient it is. And if something like that
48:07
Speaker 1: can be brought across onto the African continent, I think
48:11
Speaker 1: it's a great idea.
48:13
Speaker 2: It's as you know, Jeffrey Sachs was saying in that speech,
48:17
Speaker 2: China can do it, Africa can do it. It's entirely possible.
48:22
Speaker 2: Coming back to that the debt trap thing, Okay, so
48:26
Speaker 2: you will always have either that narrative or you'll have
48:31
Speaker 2: an environmental narrative pushing for this not to go ahead.
48:36
Speaker 2: So a great example is you were talking about the
48:39
Speaker 2: line in Kenya, and so they've finished this, They've already
48:43
Speaker 2: constructed it. It's just part of a longer part of
48:46
Speaker 2: that corridor that grows across and then it'll be going
48:49
Speaker 2: down to connect southwards and up to connect northwards. But
48:55
Speaker 2: Mambassador to Nairobi, so previously that journey took ten hours,
49:01
Speaker 2: it now takes four. It's again, you know, you don't
49:06
Speaker 2: have to be smart to work that out. The implications
49:09
Speaker 2: that will have economically. You know, you're running a factory
49:13
Speaker 2: in Nairobi. Your factory needs something breaks down, you need
49:17
Speaker 2: a part. You can only get that part, most likely
49:19
Speaker 2: from China. You are going to have your time from
49:25
Speaker 2: getting it from Mambassa on the coast the port to
49:29
Speaker 2: four hours. You are facilitating trade in a way which
49:34
Speaker 2: is common sense to see. This can only be beneficial,
49:39
Speaker 2: it can only do good. Now some of the challenges
49:43
Speaker 2: that people throw at it, they'll say, oh, you know,
49:47
Speaker 2: this is going to disrupt the environment, this is a
49:50
Speaker 2: negative thing that's going to happen. And of course Kenya
49:53
Speaker 2: being famous for Tsavo National Park, so what happened when
49:59
Speaker 2: China were build because China build that section mombassaitor Aobi,
50:03
Speaker 2: and what happened was you had this huge environmental lobby
50:07
Speaker 2: saying you're going to disturb the wildlife. You can't possibly
50:10
Speaker 2: put the railway line through Southern National Park because it's
50:13
Speaker 2: going to disturb the elephants and the lions and the rhinos.
50:18
Speaker 2: So the Chinese said, well, you know, hey, that's really
50:22
Speaker 2: not a problem. We have wildlife in China and we
50:25
Speaker 2: do our best to make sure that their regions are
50:31
Speaker 2: not disturbed, so will do the same for you. So
50:33
Speaker 2: what they did was they put a huge section of
50:36
Speaker 2: the railway line on a viaduct so that it wouldn't
50:40
Speaker 2: actually cut through any of the wildlife areas. It just
50:44
Speaker 2: went above on a viaduct. So the same people said, ah,
50:48
Speaker 2: but the noise, you know, the noise of this high
50:50
Speaker 2: speed train washing overhead is going to frighten the wildlife.
50:55
Speaker 2: So the Chinese said, that's not a problem. We'll just
50:58
Speaker 2: put in dumpest for the sound so that they aren't disturbed.
51:03
Speaker 2: So there's this wonderful bit of video footage where you've
51:06
Speaker 2: got the high speed rail line consuming ahead overhead on
51:10
Speaker 2: the viaduct and you've got this elephant rubbing his bump
51:15
Speaker 2: against one of the viaduct pillars, completely undisturbed. You know,
51:18
Speaker 2: it's not a problem for them. So what I'm trying
51:21
Speaker 2: The point I'm trying to make is that all these
51:23
Speaker 2: problems are solvable and so easily solvable with the right
51:27
Speaker 2: kind of mindset. You also have, you know, the spin
51:33
Speaker 2: offs from putting in this putting in these lines, just
51:39
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, the small enterprises. I remember
51:44
Speaker 2: seeing how many small enterprises were created, hairdressers, taxis, restaurants,
51:53
Speaker 2: shops that were opening up on the sections of the line.
51:57
Speaker 2: You know, it's like a feed into feeding into the economy,
52:03
Speaker 2: as obviously it does, and that's so important because you're
52:06
Speaker 2: you are building up from from the bottom. You are
52:09
Speaker 2: facilitating trade and commerce at every level. I think that's
52:15
Speaker 2: something that they fail to They fail to advertise that,
52:19
Speaker 2: they failed to say all the incredibly positive things that
52:23
Speaker 2: it achieves.
52:25
Speaker 1: Something that often comes up is, yes, Bana, this is
52:27
Speaker 1: an example of China colonizing Africa.
52:31
Speaker 2: They don't meddle in politics. They really don't meddle in politics.
52:37
Speaker 2: You know this whole what do you what do we
52:41
Speaker 2: call them the West, the Western oligarchy. They have such
52:45
Speaker 2: a long history of meddling in politics, propping up governments,
52:49
Speaker 2: installing governments, regime change, you name it. They just have
52:53
Speaker 2: such a long history of it. And China doesn't do this.
52:56
Speaker 2: It doesn't meddle politically. People say, you know, you look
53:00
Speaker 2: around the continent and you look at the presence of
53:02
Speaker 2: China and that that in itself is terrifying. Well, it's
53:08
Speaker 2: only terrifying because China have got in there and done it,
53:12
Speaker 2: whereas the West hasn't. It's had the exact opposite approach.
53:17
Speaker 2: So you know what, what what can you actually say
53:19
Speaker 2: about that? That uh, that that presence of China and
53:24
Speaker 2: the continent. I mean to put it into perspective. Okay,
53:28
Speaker 2: I was in Mozambique, and Mozambique are they have a
53:33
Speaker 2: very strong presence. China has a very strong presence there
53:36
Speaker 2: and they're building. They build a fantastic bridge, They're putting
53:40
Speaker 2: in a lot of infrastructure and they're doing great stuff.
53:45
Speaker 2: So u I said to Mozambique, and I said, you
53:48
Speaker 2: know how you feel you look around and this like
53:52
Speaker 2: Chinese work is everywhere, and there's there's presence of China everywhere.
53:56
Speaker 3: How do you feel about it all?
53:58
Speaker 2: And he said, well, hey, they might the next empire,
54:01
Speaker 2: but at least they're building US roads and railways and bridges.
54:05
Speaker 2: I mean it's the wrong mindset, okay, because it should
54:08
Speaker 2: be the most Unbiquan government doing that, but hey, China
54:12
Speaker 2: are doing it. At least it's being done.
54:17
Speaker 1: There's there's a a farm not too far away from
54:22
Speaker 1: where I live, and it's owned by Chinese. But my
54:27
Speaker 1: wife loves going there because they have the most delicious
54:31
Speaker 1: wine and sushi pairing. I don't know, I don't know.
54:34
Speaker 1: If you know you can do that, You can pair
54:36
Speaker 1: sushi and different wines and it is quite fabulous. But
54:41
Speaker 1: you would think because it's owned by Chinese, it's got
54:43
Speaker 1: all Chinese stuff. No, it's all local staff, excepting the kitchen.
54:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's so much propaganda put out there to
54:50
Speaker 2: be to be anti China.
54:52
Speaker 1: There's a there's a there's a strong sense of African
54:57
Speaker 1: uselessness across the West.
54:58
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, do you look at what they.
55:03
Speaker 1: Called Afro pessimism.
55:05
Speaker 2: Pessimism, but look at those countries that they refer to.
55:10
Speaker 2: You know, there's South Africa, you know, the South Africa
55:14
Speaker 2: has been left behind. You know, it is a market case.
55:18
Speaker 2: As you say, look at Nigeria. You look at the
55:23
Speaker 2: countries that are proving that point, and those are the
55:27
Speaker 2: countries that have been following the Western model to the
55:30
Speaker 2: to the t. So they've been following the neoliberal system,
55:35
Speaker 2: the de growth policies along with the or the social stuff.
55:40
Speaker 2: So you have you have they almost have justifying that.
55:44
Speaker 2: But the look at the countries that haven't done that,
55:47
Speaker 2: such as Ethiopia and what changes they've made, and countries
55:51
Speaker 2: that are choosing to plow their own road like Tanzania
55:54
Speaker 2: and the changes that they have made. So it's almost
55:59
Speaker 2: like saying, yeah, look look look at the baby that
56:02
Speaker 2: we've made. That's South Africa the basket case.
56:05
Speaker 1: I know, times against us. But between our last conversation
56:09
Speaker 1: and now, and our last conversation being about the the
56:13
Speaker 1: quote unquote genocide of Christians in Nigeria, I don't know
56:17
Speaker 1: if you saw about two days ago Trump announced that
56:21
Speaker 1: he has ended the genocide of Christians in Nigeria.
56:26
Speaker 3: Did he really? I missed that?
56:28
Speaker 1: Yes, well, glory b amen. He bombed it, bombed a village,
56:44
Speaker 1: apparently bombed a village and then the locals there said
56:48
Speaker 1: there's no history of of of anti Christian sentiment. I
56:54
Speaker 1: don't know those two stories related, but those are two stories.
56:56
Speaker 1: I'll send them to you.
56:59
Speaker 3: That made my day.
57:03
Speaker 1: Regarding your work, PD, how can I follow it?
57:08
Speaker 3: I have a website.
57:09
Speaker 2: I'm the founder and editor of a website called Africanagenda
57:14
Speaker 2: dot net. I have written copiously over the years. I
57:19
Speaker 2: founded my website in twenty and fourteen and you can
57:23
Speaker 2: access on my work there, and I have a few
57:26
Speaker 2: articles on substack and I'm also.
57:29
Speaker 1: On X all Right, v D. Lawton look forward to
57:32
Speaker 1: having you back for now. Thank you for joining in
57:34
Speaker 1: the drin