Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Breaking Barriers in Motherhood with Michelle Hands | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 8

Transcript

Breaking Barriers in Motherhood with Michelle Hands | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 8 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: In this podcast, Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, bring to you all those conversations that, you know, you might have with your best friend or your sister or someone that you're just needing to talk about the real stuff in motherhood with.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to bring to you conversations that are going to make you laugh.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: We love to laugh, probably make you cry and cry in the best of ways, move you, inspire you, help you feel seen and validated and less alone because from where Deb and I sit, none of us should mother alone.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Please pull up a chair, grab a cup of tea, coffee, a glass of wine, put in your earbuds, go for a walk.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are inspired by these conversations, both conversations that Deb and I have, just the two of us, and also really incredible interviews that we have with other experts and specialists in the field of mental health and maternal well-being and women's health.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you find these worthwhile, please share with a friend.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because the reality is we really want to make sure that those moms out there who need a community and who could be uplifted or supported in any way that they find us.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks for being here.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: We cannot wait to mother with you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: This week, Kate and I had the opportunity to talk with Michelle Hands.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: She is an incredible woman who has spent the last 17 years working as a construction engineer in a traditionally male-dominated industry.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: At some point, she started to share her stories about her trials and tribulations and strengths that she learned from being in this job.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it has evolved into this incredible platform where she inspires women all the time how to get out of their own way and forge their own path and be these independent women that don't have to fall into a box.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, she has a podcast, she sells tons of merch, she has a YouTube channel, she is a public speaker.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna let the interview speak for itself, but we loved talking with her.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: We learned so much, and I hope you enjoy the show.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: Have a great day.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners, it's Kate.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So for our listeners, I am offering up a 30-minute free call.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Zoom is ideal, so I can see your beautiful faces, so that I can chat with you about what you might need to access the kind of emotional and mental well-being that you are wanting in motherhood, both for yourself, right?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you can feel better and also for your kiddos, of course, because what we know is that when we are healthy, we mother better.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: So find a link in the show notes.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: Come hang with me for a little bit and let's figure out what you might need to access that kind of life that you are really wanting.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I really hope to see you, and there's nothing to lose.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Pop on a call with me.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'll see you there.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, as we all know, the mother-daughter connection is like no other.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: It is intense and special and instrumental in both the lives of the mothers and the daughters.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: However, we know it can also be complex and challenging and even toxic at times.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_03: And when suddenly understanding your daughter can feel like the biggest challenge ever, we can feel scared and alone and disoriented.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm here to help.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: I have just launched my fall workshops and I have a few different options which I'm really excited about.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: You can check them out on my website at motherdaughterjourney.co.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: What I want to tell you is that I'm offering a few day-long immersive retreats, and I'm also offering a virtual deep dive on specific topics.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: The day-long options are hosted on Fridays, and if you're from out of town, you can make it a weekend in beautiful Boulder, where you can explore our majestic mountains and trails, eat amazing food, and just enjoy the Boulder lifestyle.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: If you go to my website again, motherdaughterjourney.co, you can schedule a free information session.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I really look forward to hearing from you.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Have a beautiful day.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Michelle, we are so, so psyched to have you here for so many reasons.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the Motherhood Uncut podcast.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that Deb and I were really excited about when we first learned about you was your, well, first of all, you're just amazing.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: We we liked you within like the first two minutes of meeting you on the screen.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: But your kind of your life story and what you do for a living and your mom, obviously, and also your commitment to really staying steady to what you know to be true about you in life and not have to sacrifice those things because you're a woman and a mother.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so that sounds very vague.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna have you jump in, but can you introduce yourself more formally?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Tell, tell our listeners who you are, what you do in the world, and then we'll just keep asking you questions and we'll go from there.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds good.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um my name is Michelle and I'm in the UK, and I've worked for 17 years in the construction industry.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I guess that's kind of what's led me to the journey to where I am today.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So at the moment, I'm still part-time in construction as an engineer.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do content creation, but along the journey, um, I guess I became, I hate the word, but a bit of an influencer because there aren't many women in construction.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so now I just spend my days trying to help other women and try and educate people about the industry, the culture, and how we need to change it.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we need more women in the industry and we need more women to just think I can do that and whatever it is that they want to do in life to go ahead and and you know, forge their own path is kind of my motto as well as shoud their wins.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I just I just want to encourage people to to step outside the comfort zone because I did it for a huge amount of time unknowingly that I was kind of forging my own path.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it set me free a little bit, even though it was quite a difficult journey.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, I love that.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: You are speaking for women that could potentially be stuck or getting in their own way.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um would you mind just launching in and telling us your story of how to come back to this place?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: I also want to, it's like I want to tell you what's happening in my brain as you're talking because I think you're gonna go into this with Deb's question.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I imagine our listeners, like I have an image of a construction worker in my head, but it is not a woman, and it's certainly not a pregnant woman who's going home to her children.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I would also love for you to in when you tell your story to sort of define what is a construction worker.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there are all kinds all kinds of stereotypes around that, but um, I want to make sure our listeners are all on the same page about what we're talking about here.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I my story is uh, I suppose a little bit less conventional.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I left university, I did a degree in geography in the UK, and I actually wanted to be an actress.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: So crazy enough, I decided as soon as I finished university to fly to Los Angeles and to train to become an actress.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And when I got there, I realized that I actually wasn't very good.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was probably more interested in the storytelling.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I came back home and reality hit that I needed to earn some money.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And a friend of my brother's said, Okay, you have some sort of skill here to perhaps go into the construction industry, but into a quality assurance role.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I ended up going, I say from rags to riches, but it's the other way around.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of went from Hollywood to ending up on a landfill site.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so I'm not going, you guys call them landfill sites.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: What's on the what's a landfill site?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: We call construction site.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, construction site.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, so so like so you know where all your waste goes.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, landfill.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, like the garbage.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, garbage, that's it, right?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so um I started work on one of those and um basically just was working on several different sites up and down the UK, just not knowing what I was doing, completely winging it, um, but really enjoying it because I could travel in between and I still had an interest in film.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I was making short films on the side and realizing that I had a passion for storytelling.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, whilst I was working in construction, I switched after about six years into engineering, which meant I was on proper construction sites.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So my job was to read drawings and show guys um and peg out, so like hammering stuff in and show them where to build stuff and how to build, how to build on site.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it was very much I have to fight this because lots of guys on social media are like, oh, she, you know, I bet she works in an office.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was I was down doing hard labor.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: You had a hard hat on, yeah, yeah.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was with the guys on site, yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Cut every day.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: There was no nice office.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was on site every day.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I did this for um, well, um up until last year, um, I was on construction site, and then the last couple of years.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: So my eldest is five years old.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um, what happened whilst I was working in construction is I started sharing stories about how hard the culture is, how tough it is to kind of be a woman on your own on a landfill site.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I was explaining to my friends all the things I was experiencing, and they were like, Michelle, this is not normal.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, What do you mean?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: They were like, they had normal jobs, I say normal.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they were like, It's it's not normal to be working with, you know, a sex offender or someone that's just come out of prison for doing manslaughter, or you know, and I was like, Oh, right, okay.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And because I had only ever been in the industry, I didn't know anything else.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I started to look around and think, I've not ever worked with another woman on site.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so things started to click, and then the storytelling, the passion for that came in.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so then that's when I really started on socials with Instagram and YouTube.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: I used to film myself on site, and to this day, all of the people, all the companies I used to work for had no idea that I was filming.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't filming the guys, I was just doing a vlog.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, here's me on site, and I wanted to expose to other women that the job could be available to them as well.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that got really fun.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: I got connected to lots of people all over the world because lots of other women in construction um would contact me and say, I feel the same, I've had the same experiences on my own.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for sharing.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then lots of other women started to connect that weren't in construction, but also were in the same situation, you know, in other career paths.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's how She Who Dares Winds was born.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because one day someone said to me, you know, like it's been a rough ride, but why do you keep doing it?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I do absolutely love the job.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, as much as I talk about the dark side of things, I love the industry.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, you know, she you dare wins, like you just gotta keep going.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and and so that's how that was born.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I um got pregnant with my first son, I wanted to document to see if I could be a mom and work in construction.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if the story ended with me being pushed out, then that would be the story.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: But if it didn't, then hopefully it would guide others coming through that you know it can be done.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I then I had my second during COVID lockdown.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and because we were allowed to work on site, I actually worked until I was like 36 weeks ago.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we had a heat wave.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um for for England, it was hot, nowhere else.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, so I worked and and the national newspapers picked up on it and they went with, you know, build a pregnant on site.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I just I've always just wanted to show others that it can be done.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: But also I I tell the hard truth, so I I I'm not afraid to speak out on on how bad it can be.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I think what are some what are some of those hard truths that you experienced on site?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: So um the industry does attract um, you know, it's difficult to say this without I don't want to offend people, but it does attract um a certain type of male when they're coming in to do like labor jobs.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think everyone deserves you know a second chance, but there are a lot of you know ex-offenders that come into the industry and you don't you're not made aware of it.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think because employees have not had a lot of women working in the past, it's it's not really thought about.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been in a field on like in a field in the middle of nowhere where it's just myself and a worker who's we're working on like a we're doing drilling, and there's no one for miles, and then this guy just says to me, you know, I've just done 15 years for murdering someone, and I'm 23, and just like okay.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And there's quite a few of those situations where I've been quite lucky, but I hear, and it's heartbreaking, lots of stories from women that have messaged me over the years that haven't been lucky, and there's been sexual assault, and there's been some really dark things that have happened, um, and they get brushed under the carpet.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, often the woman gets moved because they don't know how to deal with things.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of women that have gone through the same thing as me of being pregnant on site, they just get asked to stop working or they don't get supported.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it it's yeah, it's hard.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I was extremely lucky that I was a freelance engineer, so I have only ever worked for myself working for contracts.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if I didn't like a contract, I would move.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I know lots of people that are employed by companies can't do that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's hard.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: One of one of the things I hear you describing and naming here, you know, and there are there's of course, you know, we are a population where stereotypes abound.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I think we're naming here that there is a stereotype here in a generalization, and you've had very real experiences that have sort of fit into some of this.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the things I hear describing is that you are a woman in an industry where there are a lot of powerful, strong men, right?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so the the sort of what I hear you and the the question is, and I imagine the sort of dynamic is okay, what does it look like to be doing your job where you want to feel an equal to, right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the job is in relationship with, again, you've got to be strong to be in construction, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're you're a woman who is potentially also declining in strength as you become 36 weeks pregnant because you know, you're making a little human in your body and you're surrounded by these other workers who are stronger and more powerful for you and than you.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's an interesting dynamic for women, for no matter what the industry it is, is how does what does it look like to show up in a steady way in that dynamic?
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: To be honest with you, that's kind of like the that's the most memorable part of my career is um being heavily pregnant.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I um during my first um, my first son's uh when I was I was growing him, um, I moved into project management and it felt so empowering.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to joke with the guys and and say, you know, I'm building two things at once.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: What's your superpower?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was like I was growing a human.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was so empowered by that, especially the first time around.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then also building a project.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like I it was the first time I took on crazy, I decided to take on project management when I'd never done it before when I was pregnant.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so hormones flying around, but I think I was I was incredibly lucky that time around.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, in both times, actually, that I had very supportive guys.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I talk about you know the industry and the dark side a bit, but a good 80% of my career has been amazing.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I've worked with some incredible guys that have looked after me wholeheartedly, and during those times was when I was pregnant.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, it was it was very empowering, and that's I think you your body kind of goes into when I felt like when I was pregnant, my body went into like a survival, but almost like a powerhouse.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um it didn't come with problems, you know.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're like I was huge um my first one, and so like even bending down to pick up a hammer was hard.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think it's amazing what your body can endure, and and now my biggest comeback to guys is like I've been through labor.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like nothing you do is going to relate to that.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, and the pain, and like there is nothing that there is just nothing physically when they're like, Oh yeah, but women can't physically.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, don't even go there with the physical side of things because no.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's beautiful.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: All right, I have a question.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so you you really had like extreme different passions, right?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: This actress performing and that whole world and LA, and then to like this rugged, you know, kind of just gritty badass is what I'm feeling.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: Is that accurate?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so I'm so you know, you were talking about being with people that deserve a second chance and that might seem seemingly scary.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what can you tell us something that you learned about yourself just being in situations with people that are seemingly scary?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like how you would respond and just how you noticed yourself?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I have that's my dishwasher beeping.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh good, we're I'm cut here.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're good, we're good.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: One one second.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I think this is the first time in a podcast that someone's gotten up to turn the dishwasher off.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: You've got you've got to do the dishwasher, yeah.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it's just gonna be beeping.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, yeah, so totally.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: I um I think I've inherited from my dad that I kind of thrive in social situations in terms of I just love speaking to people from all walks of life.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um I've been able to do that in this job.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: You are exposed to so many different characters, and that's what I love about it.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the full circle of trying to be an actress and and the love of storytelling really did come full circle because the one thing when I was um training, they were saying, you know, you've got to bring all your life experiences into these characters, and I didn't really have that.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I had a very privileged upbringing, um, and working in construction gave me that.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was, you know, I I learned so many things from working with guys and uh from learning you know about people's backgrounds and how to overcome things.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I also kind of have a wicked sense of humor, so people say.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it was um a good way to exchange words with people and and just have a good time.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like the industry has a very fun side to it, so it is extremely dangerous, it is very, very um fast-paced, it's rewarding.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think you put and it's it's it's there's um there's quite a lot of stress involved at all levels on a construction site.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: So when you throw that into the mix and you throw all these personalities, you either sink or swim.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, the first job I ever had, the guy said to me was like, You've got two weeks.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: He said, You've got to prove yourself in two weeks, otherwise you're gone.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that was an ultimate challenge for me.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And ever since then it's felt like it's just on this constant, you know, trajectory of just the next job and and meeting more people.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I did have a period where I think I lost myself, I lost my identity, and I tried too much to blend in and go into some you some jobs you go into like a survival mode, and I didn't really like who I'd become.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I think with age you mature a bit and you realize I don't need to be blending in, I can be myself, and if people don't like that, then they can, you know, go elsewhere.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow, hallelujah.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: That is like such a metaphor of mothering, right?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was so funny because I was sitting here hearing you describe construction, yeah.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, okay, well, it's actually such a metaphor for what motherhood is.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, motherhood isn't inherently dangerous the way a construction site site might be, but we certainly feel like a lot of things in mothering are dangerous, right?
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it's unpredictable.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of quote unquote heavy lifting, right?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's a need to be resilient to the all time stress coming in.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many different parts.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's the the the anxiety, the high stress, right?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like we could go on and on.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that leads me to really wonder something in what ways do you think you brought the skills you learned on a construction site into your mothering site?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like to be honest with you, motherhood is a rough ride.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have yeah I you know I think I had a rough year post-COVID.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: So not last year, the year before in between my two sons where yeah I I struggled and I think it was just that realization that you have two humans to look after.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never like when people used to say to me are you going back to work I'd be honest and say yeah because running a construction site or doing anything in that field is so much easier than being a mom.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I think that's why I'm really passionate actually about getting more women into the industry because the skills that you get as a mom that you have no choice but to get yeah you know managing multitasking um figuring out the crap and then just doing exactly what you need to do can really work for any other career.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: So when someone says oh you know when you've become a mother your brain turns to mash and you can't go into no I would say if if it was reverse and you became a mother and then you went in we would just fly because the skill set is so vast.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: But it's also that figuring out like you feel I felt like my 20s and 30s I was like okay I've got this construction figured out now I'm comfortable and then I became a mom and I was just like not comfortable not comfortable and it doesn't ever come does it you you talked about how one of the things you brought to the construction site that helped you relate to the other construction workers and to get through was humor and having fun.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: And of course motherhood if if we can have humor and we can't find a sense of play we're we're gonna get burned out real fast.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's that it's like so I guess we could go either way, right?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're mothering you get to bring all of that into the construction work.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And also what you needed to do what you brought it sounds like it's true of yourself.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's inherent in you but what you brought from yourself to the construction site to make it work, I imagine is also something you had to find in this hard job as mothering to make it work.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is that accurate?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah completely completely and and what's also been quite a nice shift is working predominantly with men um I have a good group of friends but since you leaving university they kind of spread out over the country and I was I was I never really had a strong group of really close friends and yet as soon as I became a mother that changed.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah like and that's been so nice for me because I was just I guess I was in this like I'm independent like I I've got close friends but I don't really need and then you know school moms um moms where my children the same age I just feel like it's opened me up um maybe mainly because I think you need that support system.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Someone that's been through it.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's been incredible.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's been it's been a real nice turnaround now um I think I'm a little bit softer um in my approach to dealing with people and I think the biggest thing that I've learned from being a mom that I take into my work now is empathy.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Trying to have you know more empathy for people and not just um shutting people down if I don't agree with how they're doing something.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's it's it's tough.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's no manual for motherhood though so I'm still I'm still totally figuring it out.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: No but you are sort of well we're all figuring it out every day.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: You said some really key things though you you said community without saying that word like and the and to have to be able to ask for help and have you know instant people that you need in a different way.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think that is like number one on the manual for mothering and just what you just said this empathy piece you know you I actually heard empathy in your voice the moment you started speaking around working with these men, right?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: That kind of can be characterized in like the negative world, which we know is just one part of their life.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: It might have been one really bad choice.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: It it doesn't define them right decisions that get you to places.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that when we can really practice empathy with ourselves with our kids you know with other parents it's like it's it does this thing where you said it softens you.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: I agree with you it when I can live in that place it just softens everything.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: It like just makes it a little more watercolor of an easy you know and I think it's like so important.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah um I'm left with another question and that was when you said you lost your identity for a little bit um which I think happens to I think so many of our listeners can relate to would you mind sharing about that a little bit yeah sure.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I went through a year of um yeah I it was it was well I'll I'll I'll say what it was at the end but I went through a period of time where I started to have um kind of like chest pains and um I had like cameras down and and lots of tests and I went into this whirlwind of there's something seriously wrong with me.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um went to the doctors and it was like okay you've got acid reflux take these tablets and I went on yeah like this spiral of nine months of there's something wrong.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of it um I just started to change my lifestyle and what now looking back on it I realized that it was all stress and I thought I was this powerhouse I was like I've I've been in construction like I you know there's no other industry that's as stressful as that and you know then I've gone through labor I've gone through COVID like I can I can I the stress is something that doesn't touch me.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and then I ended up in hospital thinking that I was having like a heart attack and the doctor just basically said to me it was like talk to me about and he was like the first person after all the other doctors he was like talk to me about what it is that you do and I was like okay so I at the time I just bought a second house to renovate because I thought that was a great idea to do with two kids and two businesses.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And my husband was like pulling his hair out um so I got two businesses two kids under four and a house that I personally was renovating.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like do you think it might be stress it's so interesting how so many of us who think of ourselves as capable and strong that it's our body that tells us that we're stressed before our mind.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like you may not have quote unquote felt stressed, right?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because you were just doing what you know how to do which is pretty badass in and of itself right and then your body was the part of you that said you have to stop.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really typical.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I've never been construction but I would say that happens for me.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can you push through push through but I guess I mean like you might say to me how's your stress level and I might be like totally fine and then I'll be like but my back really hurts right and it's like my body's telling me that I'm stressed before I'm aware of it cognitively and intellectually I think that happens to a lot of people I think it does.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the brain overrides it yeah especially when you have a vision of yourself and I guess self-identity like you're talking about yeah and that that kind of crumbled then I was like I can't you know maybe I'm not who I thought I was maybe I'm not as strong.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then um yeah having two kids and and also both my labors I think I just I was like no I've got through it but both my labors were very like well they were terrible to be honest both were forceps lost a lot of blood um so two really kind of like horrific labors after the first one they were like oh the second one won't be like that then it was I was just like um so I think all of that crammed in and then I guess the stress of still being in the industry and still trying to do everything as well um yeah crumbled and then it's been a bit like building myself back up from that and slowing down and slowing down and enjoying like I think at times I was in a rush to go back to work to prove that things could be done.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was like what am I doing?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like spending time with my boys was so rewarding um and I had the luxury of being able to do that because my husband's got a very good job that you know he has a lot of spare time as well.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a case of of slowing down which I know is incredibly hard for some women um I know you guys in the US you barely have maternity leave.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: No slowing down in the US is like shame.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah it's ridiculous it's like the only cultures that we don't have a siesta although I have I make siesta but but you're right there's like six weeks maternity leave we have six weeks maternity leave and actually not all businesses even pay for all six weeks.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean it's really really bad.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know you know what Michelle is reminding me of Dev is this conversation we just had in our most recent podcast about our kids about how we can have an idea and we're talking about Michelle about how as moms, as parents, we can have an idea of who our kids are and unintentionally lock them in that box, right?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, well my kid's so easy or my kid is the artist or my kid is the whatever the sleeper right or whatever the thing is and then it doesn't give our kids room to be multidimensional full human beings.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that's part of what I hear you saying you have such an image of yourself.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: I am the woman construction worker I am the badass I get crap done and then the moment you started feeling more human right the moment you started experiencing the multiple parts of yourself it didn't fit in to this definition that you had of yourself.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and it's almost like that's where the stress occurred right it's like this almost sounds like the stress built up when you pushed away all these very normal human experiences you were having that you didn't see as having any place in your self-identity.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and I think that's it's a really interesting point and it's something that's embedded in me now to think about with my own boys.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like you say we we we have this idea of where they want to go and it's kind of restricted.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I did I I didn't know that I could have a career in construction I fell into it and actually I've spoken to my son's teacher and they do some really interesting research and they basically discovered that um from quite an early age that girls don't consider any of these careers um that they can do and the and half the time it's because the parents don't have that conversation and it's it's it's hard isn't it because you see like my youngest he's he's just about to be three and he's very good with a ball and I was like oh he's gonna be into sport and then like for me that's been really hard because I I did construction for so long and now I'm doing different things like you know I'm starting a podcast as well and and you know I'm writing more and doing more artistic things.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really opened my eyes that you know we should be telling our kids or not even telling them just kind of lead their own path but then the mother instincts is like oh you know maybe you should and I saw it with my own parents it's I it's hard and they said you will never understand until you become a parent like you just want you to be safe but to also experience you know it was like go to university.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: University probably wasn't the best place for me.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it took me on the journey and then being stuck in one career maybe wasn't the best place for me.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and now I think we see a lot of 20 and 30 year olds that are experiencing this midlife crisis um that used to be like the 40 plus and it's because society tells us to do you know like I felt like I had to go back straight into construction and continue on that journey.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think it's a really interesting conversation to have and I see now what's interesting is I've had two boys which I always knew was the case I was going to be surrounded by men there was never going to be a I just just knew it I just knew it um and I wasn't going to go for a third because it'd be a third boy.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And for me it's really interesting when I watch little girls and I watch parents with little girls and and the whole I've even done it myself I've been like oh such a pretty dress and you're like you know that's the things that are said that if we didn't say those things and we just said you know like oh you threw that ball really amazingly or you did um you know like you climbed with great resilience it's it's it's hard um but I think there's so much more we can do and I'm hoping as a parent I know I will because I think it's just what you do but I'm trying really hard to restrict on um I guess what we do is we narrow the options for them um in order to try and protect.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just about paying attention and it sounds like you're really committed to paying attention to when you unintentionally keep your sort of mold your kids in a direction because we we do we mold our kids we gender for better or for worse.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah we genderize but we also mold just based on our other conversation like if I focus on my kids' art all the time and say you're so great at art and I don't focus on something else yeah she might be more likely to go into art.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we're doing this all the time without I actually had um it was quite it was it was my first kind of parenting like light bulb moment a couple of months ago so uh talking to the moms and uh the kids over here we start they start on stages with books and I was always left behind as a kid and um I realized that my son had been on these coloured books for so long and I was like he's not moving on and he's getting bored um but I don't want to be I don't want to be that parent that's like typing in every week to the teacher we all know who they are and I was like that's not gonna be me I'm not gonna do that but it got to a point where he was getting bored of reading and lots of other parents were talking about different coloured books and then you're like well is why isn't he up there?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like is that you know does he need to be on that next level or and then I was like oh no I'm now I'm being a pushy parent but I sent the email and so my son was sent home with the harder books and um on that first night we started reading them and I was getting really frustrated with him because he wasn't reading properly but he was he was tired and and I was like oh no he got really upset and I was like you don't have to read anymore and I remember coming down to my husband and saying I've I've messed up and he was like why I was like because what I you know I thought because of social pressures that he needed to be moved on and didn't want him left behind and I intervened and now like he used to love reading now he hates reading and what I actually did was sat down with him the next day and apologized and it was really humbling I was just like I'm really sorry um that I did that and if you don't want to read that's totally cool like we just won't you know we won't read and and I'm um you know if you want to go back to the other books let's do that or if you just want to give reading to miss for a while and um he gave me a hug and he was like that's okay it's okay that you did that and um then my husband on the evening read to him and he read beautifully imperfect these harder books but for me that was kind of like yeah you you've got to know as a parent when to rein it in and it's hard um but yeah that was quite so I I I do apologize to my kids quite a lot.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: Oh there's so many wins in that story I just have to like point out a few because there's that was so beautiful.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: First I think that projection of our own trauma we we put on our kids unconsciously all the time and it's that's the point of these conversations is like Kate just said is to just be aware to notice it because we're we're doing it all the time.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: And and then to go repair which you did so beautifully to a five year old who will feel that will feel you coming down to his level and being like hey I I made a mistake I mean I think that when and I think that that is actually getting really common in the parenting world now where a long time ago it was so unheard of but it's like this thing that most people can really understand and conceptualize and bring into practice of like owning it right owning it you're human that you're imperfect and you got caught up and tangled up with your story around reading and being left behind and put it on him.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then and then the last there was other wins but the last one I want to name is then your husband came in and had a no energy around it right and then he had a different experience and then it's like oh my god it's like such a reminder of how much we unconsciously bring into a situation.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah and I think the the thing for for me as well is like realizing when you become an adult whether that be like 18 or I guess I probably feel like an adult in my 30s but you realize that your parents don't know it all and I think growing up you always see them as they're a source of information.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: They know everything and actually I quite like my kids to not always but to challenge me when the time's right.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously that's a hard line to play when they're little um because we're still figuring out as well so we're there to guide them but only through our own eyes and our own experiences and actually their experiences are going to be very different and they're gonna learn different things and they may want to go into different avenues and and they may challenge you know our perceptions that we have now in the future um and that's great.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of something that I'm overly aware of as well is that you know don't always like yeah it's it's guidance isn't it but without putting pressure on of you know my opinion is right like they need to go out and be able to discover that for themselves.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think that the statement there the two of the most powerful statements for us to be able to make in relationship with ourselves but also with other people are I'm sorry and I don't know.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we think that strength comes from never making mistakes or never needing to say you're sorry.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: So never being vulnerable right and also having all the answers.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think really what we learn as moms is that we make a ton of mistakes all the time.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: So the first one's out the window and we don't really know much of anything.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: We don't we're in this constant state of not knowing so it's a really interesting place to begin to see those two things as brave and strong versus you know weak and failure based or whatever.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: I actually am aware of something that because we're really talking about modeling for our kids, right?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so curious to know I know that you're sort of not just doing construction right now, you're you're doing other things as well but you're modeling a lot to your two boys being have have them having a mother who's sort of breaking boundaries and expectations in her career path and who is you know unwilling to quote unquote just do what's expected of her and and instead step into a way of being in the world that's in line with what you want versus what people think you should want.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really powerful.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: We both have daughters and we talk a lot about as women what are we modeling to our girls who will be women but I think it's interesting to think about as a woman what you're modeling to your boys who will know women, you know, who will become involved in women whether it's romantically or not right I do you ever think about that as a mom in construction?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I've and and what what I find quite interesting is um my husband Tom he is incredibly empathetic.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my my son had his like report from the first year at school um the other night, and and he was in tears.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, What's wrong?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, No, I'm just so happy.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just so happy that he has got what he has.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and both him and his brother, um like uh it's kind of a role reversal in my house.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: So like I've gone out and worked on the construction site, and he does the cooking, he's very motherly with our children, and he's so like empathetic, and he's really, really the soft side of the relationship, which is completely different to the whole industry that I've been in and men that I've been surrounded with.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't, you know, have an ego, none of that.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's um incredibly grounded and has utmost respect for women, which I guess has come from you know the way he was brought up and the way that um his parents, the values that his parents gave him.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: So my boys, I I don't ever look at them as I guess, like you said, it it's it's quite a nice thing that they see me kind of like forging my own path and doing what what aligns with I want to do.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I always look at him as a super role model for them.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, like it's it's funny because people will come to the house and they'll be like, oh, is that your dad's truck on the drive?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, No, that's my mom's.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're like, Oh, right, is like your mom cooking the dinner?
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, No, she's an awful cook, it's my dad.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: So in our house, it's so flipped upside down that I think it's great because I think just naturally I'm hoping that they will not have the stereotypical, you know, um, I'm the one literally last minute putting clothes into the washing machine saying, you know, I forgot to wash the bed sheets, and and he's got the diary down, he knows where the kids are doing activities at school, the lunches, like he he has the mom.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, joke that my youngest Teddy, um, we realized that he, my husband, was allowed allowed to have um three months maternity full pay because he's a university lecturer.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: So when Teddy was born, I had started the business, so I was kind of working part-time, and he had Teddy for three months, and Teddy thinks he came out of Tom.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love it.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: The bond is so strong to a point where I'm like, hey, just to prove where inside me.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um you're teaching your boys what to expect from women.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we admit no, there's no boxes.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think there is, you know, I think that's what we do.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: We taught, we did an interview with our husbands about raising daughters, men raising daughters.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: And we talked in that interview about how, you know, their relationship with our daughters in many ways teaching our daughters what to expect in relationships with men.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's sort of the same thing, right?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: In many ways, you're teaching your sons what to expect in relationships with women, and you're showing up as this woman who's you know, forging her own path and doing what she loves and you know, being independent and self-created.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And what an amazing thing to teach upcoming citizens of the world who happen to be men around how to think of women.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's just amazing.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I've got a few friends where the husbands have taken a step back in their careers to help with the kids.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the women have have gone on lead and really defied that, you know, normal perception of the woman stays at home and looks after the kids.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, it's been really positive from what I've seen, especially ones that have had girls, because I think they don't see the fear of you get a career and then it all comes tumbling down.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think um, I yes, I think it's really it is really important.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite, it's quite unique, but maybe that will be something that will change in the future.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, thank you.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_03: This has been just amazing.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I just think you are like we've said, you're you're breaking glass ceilings and you're changing gender roles up.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, we've been talking very much in a hetero relationship context that like this is really about feminism and sexism and like and breaking it all down.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so thank you for doing the work you do so much.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of times we like to end a lot of our interviews by asking, how do you take care of yourself?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_03: What are some of your little tools that you can share with our listeners about how you tend to you?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so this has changed a lot recently.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've changed my eating habits, so just try to eat real clean, um, take time for myself.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, enjoy reading, so I take time to read.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: I actually, you know, went a couple of months ago to it was like a shoe deswing's challenge, but I was like, I'm just gonna go out on my own to the cinema, and that was really cool.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think getting taking time to rebalance it has been a priority for me, as well as like the three core, which is sleep with kids.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's so hard.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um sleep, eat, and exercise.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna, you know, say to people out there that I've got it all nailed because I don't, but I think it's become the simple things in life have become more important.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I'm 40 next year and I realize that I have to start taking care of myself.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: What a beautiful, beautiful way to wrap up.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: I just noticed um that your last name is Hands.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think I knew that, but I'm seeing it on the screen.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm always giggle when people have last names that sort of directly tell a story in their lives.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so I also just want to say that, you know, Michelle Hands, you have really shown the women out there how to use their hands in life, right?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, who knows to you is what I kept it because my husband's name is Cornby.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I'm not changing my name to that.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm keeping it.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good one.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: Hands is a good one.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: Tell tell our listeners how we can find you, how like what's next?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: How what's next for you?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's next for me?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm sure you dare wins across all like platforms.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I love connecting with the women like yourself.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, um, my third season, the podcast has been a slow burner and it's not actually been going for the last year.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm relaunching it with a studio, having guests in and having women from all different um industries, um, you know, things that you wouldn't even think of, fighter pilots.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us what it's called.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: What's your podcast called?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's She Who Dares Wins.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's all within the branding.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I'm excited to kind of get that launched.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, I just love connecting with people and learning.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm still on this learning trajectory, and by chatting to other women, that's gonna hopefully help myself and then others.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: She who dares wins.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I just love the concept for that podcast.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to dive in.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: We will have everything in the show notes.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, any final thoughts of words of wisdom?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: We talk a lot on this podcast about mama mentors and how we all share ideas with people.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: Any final thoughts for any of our listeners?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: I guess if you're most of your listeners are kind of mothers, um, yeah, just say find your tribe if you can.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think that's been really important for me.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then um give yourself time and and you know, listen to people like yourselves because what you're doing is wonderful.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're giving uh not just advice but stories that people can learn from.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think that's that's amazing.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, thank you for for doing what you do.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Michelle.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: So great to talk to you.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: Have a beautiful day.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks very much, guys.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_03: Bye-bye.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hey you guys, it's Kate.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: So take a minute.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: We'd be so grateful.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.