Latest / Motherhood Uncut / The Mommy Wine Culture and a Story of Sobriety with Katie Mack and Kim Kearns | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 3

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The Mommy Wine Culture and a Story of Sobriety with Katie Mack and Kim Kearns | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 3 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, started this podcast so that we could bring to the table all things that no one wants to talk about in Motherhood.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Together, both psychotherapists and mothers of teenage daughters, we spent a lot of time, just the two of us, talking about all the stuff that actually shows up behind the scenes in motherhood.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we decided it was time that we all joined this conversation together.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are a mom feeling alone, if you're a mom feeling like you could use more information, if you're a mom looking to laugh about the things that are so ridiculous about this job, and quite frankly, if you're a mom needing to cry about the things that are more vulnerable and tenuous and heartbreaking, we've got you.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Pull up a chair, put in your earbuds, grab a cup of cup of coffee, grab a glass of wine, whatever you need, sit down and mother with us.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Our conversations are gonna be filled with laughter, probably some tears, hopefully some eye-opening insights.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: And between our conversations and the folks that we interview to help us learn a little bit more and grow a little bit more together, we're gonna create a system of mothering that helps us all feel a little bit less alone.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being here.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Let us know what you think.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: We've got you.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Come mother with us.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So this week, Kate and I had the opportunity to interview two incredible women, Kim Kearns and Katie Mack.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: They have their own podcast called Fucking Sober, and it is about the first 90 days of sobriety.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: It is raw and passionate and beautiful.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's an incredible narrative, and I highly encourage anyone to check it out.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: When we invited them onto our podcast, we actually did a deep dive with Kim Kearns, who is sharing her story of sobriety as a mother, and she really shares about the rawness, the vulnerability, the beauty, the growth that came out of her escaping the mommy wine culture.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: It is a powerful conversation, and it really forced us to pause and self-reflect.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of her story is incredibly relatable.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna actually encourage all our listeners to listen with gentleness and curiosity and patience, and it's just a really wonderful opportunity to pay attention to all of our behavior, regardless of our relationship with alcohol, but just any kind of avoidance techniques or strategies that we use in our life with substance or food or shopping or gossip or all the ways that we tend to find ways not to feel.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, I'm rambling, but I really hope you enjoy the show.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And please tell us what you think.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really good conversation starter.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Hey listeners, it's Kate.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: I want to invite you to come on over and find me on Instagram at Kate Kripke, K-A-T-E, K-R-I-P-K-E, for daily doses of inspiration, but also really useful strategies and tips and things to think about for those of you who are wanting to lean into more emotional and mental well-being in motherhood.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Come on over, follow me, have a discussion with me, let me know who you are, introduce yourself, and um I'm always available to answer questions.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: I hope to see you there.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: As many of you know by now, I have a huge passion for self-discovery and growth.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just adore helping people find their way back to their intuition and increasing their confidence, especially when it comes to connection.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm learning and relearning all the time that when we expand our connection with ourselves, we deeply learn how to connect with our children.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, my groups, the Mother Daughter Journey, that is what they're all about.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're learning how to stay steady and how to help out help our girls feel steady when they are going through such a turbulent transition of adolescence.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be launching a bunch of new stuff in the fall.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're not on my newsletter yet, you can do so at motherdaughterjourney.co.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Sign up there and you'll stay informed and just know what's going on in my world.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot wait to work with you.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And cheers to being a mom, being human, being messy.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Have a great summer.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: Happy podcast day, Dad.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Happy Podcast Day.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: We have a fun and really important interview today.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: We're with Katie Mack, aka Mack, and Kim Kearns.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And Katie Mack, aka Mack, and Kim Kearns do a well, Mac, it's your podcast, I believe.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Fucking sober.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: You started the podcast.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's your baby.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: And Kim and Mac have done this amazing season on the wine culture in motherhood and addiction in motherhood.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, that's such an important conversation for all of us to have because we are all so often distracting ourselves in motherhood to try to find some way to stay sane.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um anything you want to add before we turn it over to Mac and Kim to introduce themselves?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to learn some really amazing stories today about two incredible people.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I say, with no further ado, let's hear from our people.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, guys, with a loving introduction.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for having us on here.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think this for us is gives us an opportunity to sort of, we often get a chance to talk to other sober persons.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: And this is really cool to sort of talk to people who maybe want to just sort of like red flag or to keep an eye on their drinking or even just look at how it's been affecting their life.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I'll zoom out and I'll talk about the podcast.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: So Fucking Sober is a podcast I started, uh I started writing in 2017.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: That was before I got sober.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's a podcast that is a narrative podcast that's different than this when we have, you know, an interview style.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um so it kind of means like there is um there's uh people speaking to each other.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: She's talking in her head when she's going up the stairs.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: You can hear the footsteps when a dog barks, you can hear a dog bark.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: And sort of the idea is that we can hear a story of somebody who is um trying to get sober, not necessarily um enjoying themselves, but doing it anyway.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, we do the first 90 days.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's called fucking sober the first 90 days because it highlights the first 90 days of sobriety and like any habit, the first 90 days are just like the weirdest, if not the hardest.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: They're just like everything sort of out of order.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: And the number one question I would get, I've been trying to get sober for about 11 years now.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the number one question I I would get would be um in in this really interesting, vulnerable space, someone would say to me, um, oh it's really cool that you're sober.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: We're at a party, and then I like how long you've been doing it, and then but like how?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Kim just mouth it with me.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's it's because it's so it's a really um vulnerable spot to like actually ask we how did you do it?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: And Kim picked up on this, and obviously I'll let Kim tell her story, but Kim picked up on this immediately when she started writing her blog.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: And my version of picking up on this, wanting to share my how.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't necessarily think that you should do it the way that I did it.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think it was easy.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think there are easier ways and more supportive ways and all that stuff.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: But it but it is the way that the fictionalized version of me got sober.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: And um the fucking sober um as an entity, uh season one and season two right now.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um we we call it semi-autobiographical.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: So we can straddle the line between sort of like docueduc and entertainment.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um because sometimes the truth is a little boring, even if it's interesting, and sometimes stuff that's really heightened, you're like, you're never gonna believe this is gonna happen.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: The storytelling of it isn't really good.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: So that sort of meshes my sort of theatrical world.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: And ideally speaking, you kind of it just takes up like 17 to 30 minutes of your time.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: And for a lot of people, that is 17 to 30 minutes of their time where they're not drinking or spending time to look at growth.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that for me, um I season one, I made fully well knowing I was gonna make season two, and um, I put out a call for season two.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so season one is is my story.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm Katie Mack, white presenting.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I basically uh got sober in my late 20s.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm now 37.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um about to be, um, God willing.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: And uh and um I threw the lines of getting sober in New York City as a single woman, um, cisgender woman.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that was my version of my story, and I had to do it to go first so I could make season two.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I put out a call.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where Kim comes in.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: So Kim is the head writer for season two, and we kind of love love telling the story.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Kim, you want to take it from here?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: You want to tell them how many days sober you were?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I was gosh, I was a couple weeks sober and I reached out to Mac.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she put a call out for you know, writers to submit something, and I submitted my story.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my it was like a bio, um, a little bit about who I was.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I was only a few weeks sober, but I was just desperate for friends, connection.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and she contacted me.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean, I was um a mess back then.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was so lost, and I just was searching for so many answers.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I knew that I was on the right path, even though I felt so totally confused and scared.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote that bio and that little writing sample in the middle of the night when I was unable to sleep, um, you know, just days sober.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I had made the biggest decision of my life, which was to stop drinking, and the best decision of my life.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um so can I ask you a question, Kim, that um we haven't asked you yet, even in our sort of pre-talks before before recording.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: What did your drinking look like when you decided to stop?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm I'm imagining, you know, there are, you know, what we talked about before we started recording is that Deb and I are not sober, right?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: I I think we have we I actually happen to drink more than Deb does.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm more of a drinker than Deb does, but neither of us are sober.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there becomes this question, which is so different for every person.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: But like my question for you is what did it look like?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: And what was it that got you to the point where you were like, it is time for me to stop?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I've told my story so many times.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what is so interesting about my story is that I was um I'm so similar to so many women and so many moms.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's why I felt that it was so important to tell my story and to and to do this podcast with Mac, because I think that there are so many moms out there that um were doing exactly what I was doing.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I'll start from the beginning.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in uh Greenwich, Connecticut, and um, you know, started drinking uh at the We both have connections to Connecticut, that's why we laughed.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, sorry, go on.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so I grew up in, you know, a great town, and um, but I started drinking at a young age because in my high school at the age of 14, you know, that's when everybody started going to those big parties and people's backyards.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And um I found alcohol to be that gateway to acceptance, and I was a shy kid.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I wanted to be, you know, accepted into these groups of friends in high school, and that's you know, that was what we did.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's everybody, everybody did it.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody drank in high school, you know, segue into college.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I went to a small liberal arts college in Maine, Colby College, um, to where I met my husband and 1800 students there.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Same story.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Binge drinking every weekend.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody did it.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And from an early age, I drank not just to have, you know, to feel that loose, comfortable, whatever.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: I drank to get shit faced.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: I drank to get drunk.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I blacked out all the time from a young age.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I never thought anything of it because a lot of my friends did it.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of my friends did it in college.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody ever questioned it, and it was sort of the norm.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And in college, that's you know, it was a work hard, party hard kind of vibe, you know, at Colby.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And once I graduated, we kind of maintained my husband and I kind of maintained that mentality of, you know, he went to law school, I went to grad school, I got my master's in teaching.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And even though we didn't drink like that during the week, we still would drink heavily on the weekends.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, excuse me.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it wasn't that through my 20s that I was drinking and you know, drinking every day, every night.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I was partying on the weekends with my college friends, with my coworkers on a Friday night, going to happy hour.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought that alcohol was ever a problem for me.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you think of like people who have a drinking problem and you just, it's that um that stigma, that person with the um, you know, the brown bottle on the the side of the road.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's that kind of thing that you envision when you're a kid and they you the stereotypical um from the movies, you know, like you just you don't ever picture yourself as a problem drinker.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: So as I, you know, we got married 25.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I had three kids under the age of four by the time I was 31.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I had I had a lot of babies really quickly.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, so I sort of fell victim to the um mommy wine culture is what we like to say.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I found comfort in um play dates with other moms.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: We lived in Boston and um my husband and I moved to Boston after we got married.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, we had all the kids in the city.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I would, you know, bring a bottle of wine to the playdate and you know, meet up with friends at the park and pushing the kids in the stroller.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, eventually we moved out to the burbs and we I always gravitated towards friends who um who drank.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and so it was a very slow progression through throughout my 30s with these kids.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually, um, you know, once I was I became a stay-at-home mom once I stopped, once I had kids and I I stopped teaching.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I never ever saw it coming.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and all of a sudden I was um, you know, home with three little kids.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: My husband's an attorney, he was working very long hours, and um eventually I was having wine every night and you know, cooking dinner, a glass of wine a night, maybe two glasses, oh, you know, like having some friends over.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what's a third glass?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just progressed.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um eventually by the time I stopped drinking, um, you know, I was I was drinking a lot more than that.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I was sneaking drinks from my husband.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was drinking during the day.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it per it really, really progressed.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to say it was like the last five years of my drinking that um it started to really um ramp up.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, we moved to the town of Needham outside of Boston, and um, you know, hanging out with a lot of different people that enjoyed to enjoy drinking just like we did, um drinking heavily on the weekends and um it I would say as my kids got a little bit older and I and they got out of the baby phase, um I started drinking on a more yeah regular basis, nightly.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and my husband, every now and again, because he still has never, he he wasn't, you know, a drinker in college with me, but he has never been a huge drinker.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's been able to stop after like a couple drinks and he's never blacked out.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he used to sort of pick me up off the off the floor and clean up after me.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he would always um, you know, tell me on a Sunday morning if I had consumed too much the night before.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: He would sit me down and he would say to me, All right, Kim, do you remember what you did last night?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that was always like the worst phrase.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: I hated hearing that.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I would get really uh kind of mad, kind of defensive, but at the same time, I I knew exactly what he was doing.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I didn't get mad at him.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was more that I was mad at myself because I knew deep down there was this little voice in the back of my head.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I knew that there was something going on with me.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he never told me, you have to stop, or you have a problem, or what the hell?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like he was never mad at me, but he was sort of like, all right, like what's going on?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you okay?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not like you gotta slow down, like you're gonna hurt yourself, or I'm worried about you, you know.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it always came from like a kind place, um, or a concerned place.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And sobriety was never really on the table, like he never suggested it.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I never thought that I would stop drinking because it was such a lifestyle for you, wasn't it?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, yes.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a part of our lives in the sense that everyone we knew drank.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, I don't know, I really don't know many people still in this town that don't drink.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it was it was so ingrained in our um our relationship was born in this world of drinking, and it was it was such a lifestyle, it's exactly what it was.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so all these little conversations over the course of several years, and and it wasn't every weekend by any means, but you know, I I write about it in in my book and and these events, big events that happened, and you would think that some of these things that happened would have really been a wake-up call for me, but they weren't, unfortunately.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, coming home from a girls' weekend in Naples, Florida with a black eye.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, I continued to drink for two more years after that.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so but those conversations with my husband slowly cracked me open.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I slowly began to pay attention to the voice until the voice was eventually, eventually screaming, and I couldn't ignore it any longer.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, until I woke up that morning on November 28th, 2020.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was almost as if I couldn't ignore it any longer, and I finally found the courage to listen to myself, to listen to that voice, to and to say something out loud to my husband.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I had never admitted to myself that I had a problem with alcohol, but I finally woke my husband up.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: I and I I used to do this.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: I used to wake up a lot in the middle of the night around like three o'clock, unable to sleep, four o'clock, four a.m.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: five a.m., in and kind of lay there really anxious and upset and worried um about my drinking, wondering what I did the night before, who did I text?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, uh in those nights that I blacked out, I would worry about the kids.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh God, like did they get to bed okay?
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, things like that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: But um, even the nights that were just like a couple glasses of wine, I would still lay awake at that 4 a.m.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: hour with that anxiety.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was just crippling.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it was just another morning after drinking, and I was having that anxiety.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I I said, I'm done.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sick, I'm done with this.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can't do this anymore.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it was actually thankful.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thanksgiving weekend.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was COVID, it was the pandemic 2020.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we hadn't even done anything, we hadn't seen anybody.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: We were home with our kids and celebrated Thanksgiving alone.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: But um, that Friday, I had just like drank a bottle of wine on the couch alone the day before.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was just, it was just, I was spiraling.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, I was getting to a dark place.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to my husband, I woke him up and I said to him, What would you say if I said that I I needed your help to stop drinking?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And he woke up and he and he looked at me, he said, uh, yeah, I'll do anything.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it was almost as if he he had been hoping all along that I would come to that realization.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I was as well, that I was hoping that I would eventually get there.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think very deep down I knew that I was gonna get there someday, but I needed to come to that on my own.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, I there were tiny conversations I may have had with myself in a very hungover state where I had said, Oh shit, Kim, like you're you're not gonna be able to keep alcohol in your life forever.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is not gonna work for you.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love how you said to use your statement was, what would you say if I asked for your help?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like I imagine it's so interesting.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: I've talked to a lot of people who will say, I'm going to stop drinking, right?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or I'm going to stop X with this idea that it's something that they can do on their own, right?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's almost like you knew, Kim, that if you were really going to make that kind of a change, that you couldn't do it on your own.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Your husband sounds like he he came at it with so much patience and kindness.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: In hindsight, do you do you ever wish he had been more direct with you?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think if he had been more direct, I think I would have been more resentful and angry about the whole thing.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the same time, I think that he didn't really understand what was going on with me.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: So um I don't know.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was a journey for him as well.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think that he had to kind of figure it out too.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and it it has been a learning experience for him.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, I don't think you can I don't think you can tell someone directly to to do this, you know, it's definitely something that I had to figure out on my own.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have so many questions, but and then Mac, I want to give you a chance to tell your story as well, if you're open to that.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm wondering what happened next, like with friendships, with your social life.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you're open to sharing about that, I think our listeners would really appreciate that.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you have another hour?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know part two.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: This could be a part two.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so I mean, that day we it was really important that we poured out all the alcohol in the house.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we created a plan.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I didn't join AA, I didn't do a program.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: We were in COVID, there was nothing in person, but I did some online support groups, um, and I dove headfirst into therapy and um blogging and writing and journaling, and I really I don't half ass anything, and I really I I really go, yeah, all in.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that's exactly what I did.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I we got rid of every single drop of alcohol in the house.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and my husband was completely on board with all of it.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I do have to say that if you have a partner that um is that drinks as much as much as you, then I think that I the fact that he didn't drink a lot was really helpful to me.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he and he was able to say, Yeah, I we don't need any alcohol in this house.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he actually stopped drinking for six months with me, which was really huge.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with that being said, in terms of our social lives, friendships, everything shifted drastically.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about the lifestyle.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my entire world was centered around alcohol.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Everything I did, everyone I saw, all my friends.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did have a couple close friends that I told that day.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a couple of them that uh have known me for a very long time, that I still speak to regularly and can count on no matter what.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then there were a couple friends that I tried to confide in that are no longer friends with me because um it was a difficult situation because um I, you know, it's like holding a mirror up to the friendship.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Alcohol is um, you know, played such a role in so many of my friendships that it was really hard to maintain a lot of those relationships.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that has been probably one of the hardest aspects of sobriety for me.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Were your was your community surprised, Kim, when you brought up this choice you were making?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Those people that were not able to be supportive of you the way you hoped they were would, were they surprised that you were making this choice?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think they were no my friends were surprised that I was not drinking because I I not only enjoyed to drink, I I I was like the first at the party and the last to leave.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I partied hard and I brought the party and I and I just was I don't know, it was a big surprise when everyone's like Kim Kearns isn't drinking, you know.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I also didn't just quietly stop, I became very loud with my sobriety.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, as they say, I have been recovering out loud, I have been telling my story, I have um, you know, written this podcast, I wrote a book, and um I did that because I want other moms to know that you know they aren't alone because I felt so incredibly alone and scared and lost for way too long, and I suffered quietly for way too many years.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I have put myself out there and I'm telling my story because I want um other mothers to know that, you know, there's such a better option than to be stuck and trapped in that vicious cycle that I was trapped in for damn long.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a question for you, Kim.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say to the listener who's heard your story and is thinking to herself, well, it's not that bad for me.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not blacking out, I'm not hiding, I'm not drinking a bottle on a Friday by myself on the couch.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: They still are wondering and questioning and feeling uncomfortable enough about their drinking that they have considered stopping drinking, but they hear your story and it's it's at a it's sort of to from their for their description at a different level than theirs.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say to them?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that I did the same thing.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I compared myself to other drinkers and I said, Oh, I'm not that bad.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't, um, you know, when I was actively drinking, I would um read other people's stories or I would see other people on Instagram.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had a friend in um from high school that went to rehab, and I remember thinking, oh, she went to rehab, I'm not that bad.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, things like that.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And but you know what?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, I still had that voice in the back of my head telling me, Kim, you're still drinking a lot.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I still had to answer to myself.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, even if I don't feel like I was that bad compared to that girl who went to rehab from my high school, um, alcohol was impacting me in a negative way, and it was affecting my relationship with my children.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was not happy with who I was becoming as a mother.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let me piggyback on that because Deb, you brought up something about uh the person who like, you know, if there's a hierarchy, there's like the Kim whose drinking progressed and is starting to get worse and worse and worse.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: And Kim was like, I was able to start noticing it.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, you brought up that that avatar person being like, I don't really have a problem.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: I can sort of tell on the outside, I don't, I don't, uh I'm not sneaking drinks, I I'm not um counting other people's drinks or whatever.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I but I feel uncomfortable with this conversation, right?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of the first flag.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: If you're looking into this conversation, you're feeling uncomfortable, then you have something to look at.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I would sort of encourage that uncomfortability to go right into curiosity.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: And in recovery, we have a term for it.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's called sober curious.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so it starts, it stops shaming you around this idea that, like, oh, you're drinking too much, like you're a bad person.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh, like what would happen curiously if I stopped drinking?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: What would happen if I ordered this instead of this?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: What would happen if I decided to, you know, not bring wine to the party?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: What would happen if I went to a whole party, went to, you know, danced and hung up with my friends without drinking?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: That curiosity and and being in that space, then you can sort of see why you're so uncomfortable or if you should be uncomfortable.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think like knowing that there is an option for that is the first step into leaning into or sort of pressing against um seeing if you if you if you actually have a problem.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: Again, this an alcoholic, we we can't decide somebody else is an alcoholic, only you can.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm an addict by choice.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: I I use that title.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: You don't call me an addict, I'm an addict because I know I am.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: But it's all internal metric, you know?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that is that's what I would say to that listener.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, oh, there's a little bit of oh, you have a little curiosity there.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's so cool.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: If I was curious about Pilates, I might take a Pilates class.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so it's it's a little less of like, oh, you're you're gonna end up like Kim and I.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: No, you might you might be totally fine, but let's look at it with um the idea that you might want to have a slight lifestyle style change.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I love that it has like gentleness to it too, because I think so often the fear is like, if I let go of this really fun part of my life, then then what?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's like long-term trajectory, and you know, you start going down that road and it becomes very well unknown.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And unknown is usually scary.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And but the way you're framing it with I love that sober curiosity is like, let me just like peek at it.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like Kim in the earlier days before it got to the point where you just woke up that day and you were like, This is it, you weren't that willing to be curious, or you weren't leaning in the direction of curiosity.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is that accurate?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wasn't leaning in the direction of curiosity just because um I didn't think I I wouldn't let myself admit that there was a problem.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: I also um was scared of it, and I allowed myself to be swayed by the stigma and um, you know, the fact that I yeah, I didn't want to be known as an alcoholic.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to be, I didn't want that title.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: I suffered so much in the sense that I cared too much about what people thought of me.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I lived my life so focused on how I was perceived by others and how what people thought of me.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: That was my focus um in my image in maintaining this perfect image.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the picture, perfect wife with the perfect children in the perfect house, and the dog who's over there eating my shoe right now, and I don't even give a shit.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I wanted everything so perfect, and I realized that it was crushing me, it wasn't healthy.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was using alcohol to maintain this.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so we sort of talked about this earlier when you're numbing and you're using a substance or using something to help you get by, to help you at the end of the day to kind of um release.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I honestly didn't think that I could ever get rid of alcohol.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh my god, alcohol is like my best friend, it's gonna be with me forever, you know.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like this is what gets me through the day.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I was never sober curious.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like the alcohol has been with me since I was 14, gonna die with it.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's how that's what I thought.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I so and I I just figured I was like not gonna be that housewife that got that had a drinking problem.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: No way, I wasn't gonna be, I wasn't gonna be known as that person.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then I realized that oh my god, allowing other people's views dictate my life and how I live my life was so unhealthy.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that was that kept me trapped in alcohol, and that was so sickening.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's like I don't give a shit what people think, I am so much happier, and now I don't drink, and it's just like, oh, I'm living such a more freeing, authentic life, and I'm just like I am so much happier.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a better mother now, I'm a better person, and I just think that um, yeah, again, it's just letting go of yeah, that worry of how you are perceived in that judgment of others.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: So just for a moment, I want to name that I want to re-bring up that term um wine culture.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: But what do you call it?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Mommy wine culture, right?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I'm just wondering if the if like you know, we can all, as we sit here, brainstorm or think out loud a bit about what leads to that, right?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Because it is it is a that is a lifestyle for sure, not just in Boston, but also in Boulder, in New York City, and Connecticut, and I mean everywhere, across, you know, everywhere, everywhere, everywhere.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so it really is something I think we want to identify just so that people can get curious about whether or not that is sort of a lifestyle that they are a part of or have created for themselves without even realizing it.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: What do you guys think leads to that?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: Kim, you can cosign on this, but right, um, it's community, right?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, there's nothing more fun.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: I like love, you know, Kim Kim will write about this, and I love that when I can pull out the mommy wine culture tropes, it's so simple, right?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: Matching Yetis full of wine, you know, um, when you're when you're looking for a gift for your girlfriends and all you can think is like, you know, uh it's wine o'clock somewhere.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, any sort of like if you can name your best friends wines or the things that they like, um, yeah, honestly, I feel like it becomes the it's the gift giving and the gift receiving.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's the uh it's the habits every Friday is a thing, margarita Monday.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, right?
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: If you really, if you have any alliteration that involves alcohol, if you have a day in which it's designated for one thing, if you have a book club that doesn't read books and just drinks, I mean, I these are it takes a second to it to highlight them, but as soon as you start to put the pieces together, um, it ends up being a community of people that um bond over over one thing first.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't have to be, but right?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: One thing first, which is your love of margaritas, red wine, whispering angel, whatever.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, if that is the thing that brings you guys together, that doesn't mean there isn't hope for a friend, a genuine friendship, but like what else you got in common?
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: You ever gonna figure it out?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to, right?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so helpful.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think it's Instagram and TikTok, and it's it's you know, these social media um posts that you know are have been circulated.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we, you know, when I had kids, I was, you know, when you're stuck at home and you feel so isolated.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and I wasn't even in an isolated community.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was, you know, living in Boston, I was in a city, but yeah, you have to consider some, you know, people out in the middle.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I don't want to name anything in particular, any in the middle of nowhere town or anything, but like I just am picturing somebody who doesn't have any, you know, brand new baby, but no mom friends, and they just are finding that connection on Instagram.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And for example, can I read something that Molly Sims posted today?
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: She posted I was gonna say you can cut this out if you don't want, but she wrote, she posted um um on her Instagram the best part about being an adult is you can pour a glass of wine and that's dinner, baby.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's the most infantilizing sentence I've ever heard.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like supposed to be it's enraging now to be able to reframe it.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: So that's sorry, Kim, you got my immediate spot.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like, no, actually, actually, being an adult's cool because you can like you can feed yourself and you can give yourself a nutritious meal and you're not gonna set it up for something else.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: And this idea around right, uh mommy wine culture 100%.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_03: I deserve this.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: I deserve sort of why why do you deserve to drink something that's gonna give you a hangover?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like are you are you okay?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like, did you do something you deserve to make yourself sick or nauseous?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I remember the fact that she posted that and she gets you know 10,000 likes and civilian comments of all these moms being like, Yes, totally, you know, it's like an agreement, and so it's so frustrating because you know, these celebrities posting shit like that, condoning, encouraging this kind of behavior.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where I think that's where it starts.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's where it you know how gets perpetuated and it's frustrating.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: Remember Trap Hannah was doing over the pandemic, Trap Cana was doing um the the closet fridges?
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: Closet Momolus, yeah.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: You could put your champagne and and juice in the fridge or sorry, in the fridge in your closet, so you could hide from your kids and have a drink in the closet.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like our whole community lost it.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: We were like, what?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like not only are you hiding from your children because you your life is unmanageable, but then you're drinking in the closet.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't understand.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_03: There's so much wrapped up in that.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was I remember the moment actually, there was a time when you and I first started becoming friends that um our kid, I just like weaned.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were already friends, but like I would just weaned, and I remember suddenly I was like going out a lot.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was like this window.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember there, I like had this thing where I was like, wow, I am not sleeping well.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like every time I drink wine and I go out and I'm not sleeping well, and it was and I remember it was like this, I was spreading my wings again.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was like reclaiming myself as like I'm still a woman, even though I birthed two babies, you know, and like I can have fun too, see, like and I was really into having fun, and like and said that window of my life, that little chunk of time, I was like, this isn't working, this isn't feeling good for me.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's actually when I just was like, wine is not really my friend anymore, but like it was, and then I moved to tequila, you know, but like, but I was like it's it was a significant moment where I was like it was like I was coming out of the woodwork, and I think that that is actually a big part of mommy wine culture too, is like trying to reclaim yourself as a woman and not just a mother.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: I have a question about that Molly Sims post, which I think is fine to have on this podcast.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she she put it out there so we can we can comment on it publicly as well.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I here's my question whether or not Molly Sims was in this state of mind or not, do you think that part of that kind of promotion?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is so that someone feels less alone and crazy in their choices.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I mean?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's sort of like I feel so uncomfortable at the fact that I'm drinking my own wine at four o'clock and not having dinner.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to turn it into something that will make it sort of popular or attractive to other people.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think there's any of that in there?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because Middleie loves company a little bit.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: Possibly.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: I just think it's so dangerous.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just dangerous.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think that um by put by doing that, there are um so many women that look to that and say, similar to what we were talking about earlier, like, okay, I'm I'm okay.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I do that all the time.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if Molly Sims is doing it, then then I don't have a problem, then I'm okay.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just think that it's a really dangerous message.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And she can be doing so much more with her platform that um to be putting that out there is it's I just don't think it's smart.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: I I mean, right?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think we can all assume that it's supposed to be harmless, it's not supposed to be harmful.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: So that's like, you know, it's always like a good place to jump off from.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then if Molly Sims had the awareness that, you know, she was like, oh, I'm making a bad choice, and I would now want to make it a good choice, that would be like next level.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: And I think we wouldn't be making those choices.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I think it it speaks to this thing of when we become parents or adults, we are supposed to know what to do.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it's supposed to look like a particular thing.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_03: And the idea, I think what you said is the message is when it doesn't look perfect, it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the message is right.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: But it's rather lazy because I don't actually think Molly Sims is drinking wine at four o'clock.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: I actually don't believe she's doing that.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I believe she came up with that idea and that made made it feel less normal.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: Or the expectation is that you don't have to be perfect.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um unfortunately, like we don't necessarily think that drinking wine at four o'clock is gonna make you like yourself anymore.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's really it.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because it has like a chemical effect, like it changes your world.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's a little different.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: It would be like at four o'clock, tell yourself like you're you know, a bad person.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: You could be like, I'm gonna say something positive on at four o'clock, I'm gonna say I'm awesome and yell it to the world.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think that would have a much better effect than a glass of wine.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yes, darling Kim.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: What I want to say to you is that first of all, thank you for sharing your story.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: It is so freaking courageous and brilliant.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you are being sober out loud.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is unbelievable.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that I just that I think lands the most is that you are liberated now, that you feel much more like yourself, that you're finally like living a life that's about you being authentic and not about trying to be what other people need you to be or what you think they they want you to be.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: To me, that is the definition of mental health.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: That is like moving towards a place of being a queen, of being like really who you are in your fullest.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wanna I want our listeners to hear that because whatever the addiction is, whatever the thing is that's taking you out of authenticity, that's the thing we need to pay attention to.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so your story, I hope, has helped others too.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: That means a lot.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you um, this has been such an interesting podcast.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if our listeners have been able to hear the choppiness, but we are like making it work with all kinds of chaos on our internet today.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for being patient and sticking through this challenge today with the with the internet.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell us?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: I want to hear everything.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: We'll put everything in the show notes.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: But Mac, if you could let everyone know about your podcast and and um Kim, also I know you have a podcast, I think another one as well.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: And a book and a book.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so tell tell our listeners more about where Kate, I was believing, I believe it was you that said, um, you know, Kim, what did you do next after you stopped drinking?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: And that is what fucking sober is all about.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: The whole season of fucking sober is exactly what we did next over the next 90 days.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: So if if anybody's curious about how to answer that question, please go check out our podcast.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's fcking sober podcast.com.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's our website.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: But you can find us on literally every single platform.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you may have to type in the actual name because uh fucking doesn't do well in terms of shadow ban, but I promise you we are in the top five uh uh percent of Spotify shared.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_03: So we're uh like just pass from one person to the other.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: We're probably in more text messages than anything else.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I do recommend checking it out to get a glimpse of what it could be like to get sober and just listen to somebody else's adventure.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um and my name is Katie Mack, I'm the executive producer of this, and you can find me on my website, uh MacStage, M-A-C-K-S-T-A-G-E.com and at Macers, M-A-C-K-E-R-S, N-Y-C for Instagram.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Kim.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so you can check me out at a sober and strong mom on Instagram and KB Kearns, K-E-A-R-N-S on Instagram.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also wrote a book, um, On the Edge of Shattered.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, oh, and I have um a podcast as well, The Weekend Sober.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, and you can go to my website, KimberlyKearns.com.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for having us.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited that we get to provide all of those resources with our listeners.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Deb and I have been in the therapy world for many, many, many, many years.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: And as we talked about that not today, but in another conversation, that oh hello.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hi.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm back.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm back.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, is that there's such an overlap between mental health challenges and substance use of any kind.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, you know, I think there's so many people out there that are curious about these things and are, and I just I really am as that Deb is so grateful for you putting yourselves out there in this way so that people can have a mentor and a model.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: We talk a lot about that, right?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: About not doing things alone and having mentors out there to sort of help us kind of move in the direction we want to go.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you both are that big time.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yay, keep doing your awesome work.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're rocking it.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, you guys, it's Kate.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: So take a minute.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: We'd be so grateful.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.