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Rob Hurkmans on What We Wish We Knew 20 Years Ago · Future Christian

0:06
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:09
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church into the 21st century.
0:16
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host, Loren Richmond
0:29
Juniore.
0:32
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today, Martha
0:35
Totarnik welcomes Rob Herkmans to the show.
0:37
The Reverend Doctor Robert Herkmans is a senior
0:40
pastor at Trinity Anglican Church in
0:43
Streetsville, Mississauga. He is married to
0:46
Sally, and they have four daughters. Rob
0:48
recently completed his doctor of ministry degree in
0:51
leadership development from Tyndale University.
0:55
Rob was ordained with Martha Titanic 20 years
0:57
ago in the Diocese of Niagara. One more
1:01
thing. Please take a moment to leave a review on whatever
1:03
podcast app you're listening on and share this episode with
1:06
a friend. We hope this episode helps you lead your
1:09
church into the future.
1:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. I
1:22
am your host for the summer season, Martha
1:24
Tatarnic. And today I am so
1:27
pleased to be having a conversation with
1:30
a longtime friend and colleague of the Reverend
1:32
Rob Herkman's fun. Rob and
1:35
I were ordained together 20
1:38
years ago this spring, which just seems
1:41
impossible to believe. We were ordained on
1:44
a very, very hot
1:48
day, uh, in May, with
1:51
six other people, um, all of the
1:54
whom have since retired. So the two of us are the ones
1:56
that are left standing in full time
1:59
ministry after 20 years. Welcome to the
2:02
podcast, Rob.
2:03
>> Rob: Yeah, it's so very nice to be here
2:06
and to have a conversation with you, and, yeah, time
2:09
flies. Time flies.
2:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: We haven't aged a bit, but, you know,
2:13
somehow time March is on.
2:16
>> Rob: Well, uh, we did pull out that old newspaper
2:18
clipping from the Niagara Anglican that had all of
2:21
our faces, uh, that when they were announcing we were getting
2:24
ordained. And I think, uh. I think there's
2:27
been a bit of aging when I looked at that. Yeah.
2:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Gosh, this conversation, uh, is off to
2:33
a poor start.
2:37
>> Rob: I'm speaking of myself more than.
2:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, no. I mean, uh,
2:41
we wear our aging with pride, right?
2:44
Because it comes with wisdom and
2:47
experience and insight.
2:50
>> Rob: That's right.
2:51
>> Paul: That's right.
2:53
>> Rob: Yes.
2:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well,
2:56
I, uh, as I said, know you quite
2:59
well from, um, working together
3:01
and being in ministry over the
3:04
years. But, of course, our audience for future
3:07
Christian doesn't really know you. So let's start with some
3:10
opening questions, and we can just give people
3:12
a little bit of background into who you
3:15
are. Rob, um, why don't you start
3:18
by telling us a little bit about the faith context
3:21
in which you were raised.
3:24
>> Rob: Yeah, so, I mean, both you and I, Martha
3:27
served, um, in the diocese of Niagara. And, uh,
3:30
I grew up, um, as a farm
3:33
boy. My dad was a dairy farmer in a small
3:36
community near Cayuga, Ontario. We
3:39
attended the local anglican church for all my
3:42
life, along with my three siblings and my parents,
3:45
uh, kind of dragged kicking and screaming to church most
3:48
Sundays. Um, there was not
3:51
a lot to do for, uh, for
3:54
kids at that church. Sometimes they had a Sunday school program, other times
3:56
not. Um. But anyways, uh,
3:59
whether we were downstairs in Sunday school or flipping through the
4:02
BCP with my parents in the pews on a
4:05
Sunday morning, that's kind of where, uh, my
4:08
upbringing was, uh, as far as, uh, a
4:11
faith community, we were a family of. Of
4:14
faith. Um, I wouldn't say that we. My
4:17
parents had like a dynamic, you know, vibrant kind of
4:20
expression of faith, but they were good, solid
4:22
Anglicans and, ah, you know, we said grace
4:25
at supper and that kind of. That kind of
4:28
stuff. So, um, yeah, that's kind of
4:31
where it all started. And, um, since then,
4:33
I served and lived in the diocese Niagara
4:36
for many, uh, years. But just in the last five
4:39
or six years of, uh, moved to the diocese of Toronto,
4:42
where I'm serving now.
4:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, you're not too far down the road.
4:46
Um, in Ontario,
4:48
but different leadership and
4:51
different, uh, geographical part of the
4:54
church.
4:56
>> Rob: Yeah.
4:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay, so, um, tell
4:59
us a little bit about your calling. How did it go
5:02
from being dragged to kicking and screaming
5:05
to Sunday school or not,
5:07
to, um, being somebody who's
5:10
been in ministry for the past 20
5:13
years?
5:15
>> Rob: Yeah. Um, I think my
5:18
passions, when I was, let's say,
5:21
kind of in high school, the passions that really started to grow
5:24
in me were, um, around things
5:26
like leadership. Um, I got involved in student
5:29
leadership in the school, um,
5:32
drama, actually. I really loved, uh,
5:35
drama and participating in drama productions and stuff like that.
5:37
So, uh, and actually there was this part of me that also
5:40
wanted to, uh, be a teacher.
5:43
And, um, so I. All
5:46
that kind of was there in
5:48
me. Um, in,
5:51
you know, I would say even as
5:54
a child, those kind of things were in me from the very
5:56
beginning. Uh, for some reason, though, I ended up doing like a
5:59
five year degree in biochemistry at the University of Wyoming.
6:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's all right.
6:04
>> Rob: Yeah. Yeah. And it. So it didn't.
6:07
It didn't really seem to fit any of those
6:09
passions. Um. Uh, and
6:12
yet, um, when I was
6:15
at university, some important things kind of happened, actually, even when
6:18
I was in late high school, God did something I think really special
6:21
in my, my friendship group. Um, I had about
6:24
four or five guys who were really close friends. And one of
6:27
these guys went off to a summer camp one
6:30
summer, uh, and maybe grade eleven, grade, uh,
6:33
twelve, and, uh, came back and was
6:36
completely fired up for
6:38
Jesus. And he, like me, like all
6:41
of us, had been going to church with our families, uh,
6:44
our whole lives to that point. But now he had come back,
6:47
uh, with a totally different temperature and a totally
6:50
different passion, um, for his
6:52
faith, um, and so that actually kind of
6:55
led to lots of these conversations. I can remember in the
6:58
cafeteria, I can remember in the school
7:01
library, uh, on our spares, we would
7:03
have our bibles out and
7:06
it felt like dominoes in a way. It felt
7:09
like then another one of my friends kind of just
7:12
really turned, uh, a corner and made
7:15
that faith their own. And then one after
7:18
another, it seemed to be just a time when God in
7:21
that group of friends that I was part of, was really helping us
7:24
take all these seeds that maybe our parents had
7:27
planted by, uh, taking us to church all
7:30
those years. They kind of were activated and started growing
7:33
and we started taking a bit more ownership of our own
7:35
faith journey. So that was a very pivotal
7:38
time because then I, you know, we, I
7:41
can remember, like in that little church that I grew up
7:44
in now, you know, there was five or ten of us in the
7:47
basement just on our, by our own volition with a
7:50
guitar, trying to like, sing some songs and trying
7:53
to figure this thing out kind of on our own. So
7:56
pretty, pretty, um, interesting times.
7:58
Went off to university. Got connected with some campus
8:01
ministries at that point. Um, things like, uh,
8:04
it was called campus crusade for Christ at the time. Now it's called,
8:07
uh, power to change.
8:09
Um, university, ah, Bible fellowship was another
8:12
one. I got connected with, um, and started attending
8:15
a church. It was like a baptist church plant,
8:18
uh, that was just off campus. They would send a bus, you could hop
8:21
on the bus, you could go to church. Loved the teaching
8:24
there, loved the informality.
8:26
Um, this, uh, pastor was amazing. I
8:29
still remember him to this day. That church went on to grow
8:32
and became, uh, Creekside church, which is now
8:35
in north Waterloo. But this was
8:38
back when it was meeting in the YMCA, uh, in
8:41
Kitchener. And, uh, that was just. I can
8:43
remember they would sell tapes after the
8:46
service of his teaching. And I would like,
8:49
every Sunday was there, I would buy like one or two or three
8:51
of Ken, uh, Taylor's tapes and I would take him
8:54
home, listen to him. I just thought he was an amazing, amazing
8:57
teacher. And again, now
9:00
I think, uh, some of that passion for, like,
9:03
drama and being in front of people and speaking and leading and
9:06
teaching. I started to say, you know, maybe that is kind
9:09
of how God wired me. Maybe I could do something like that.
9:11
Maybe. Maybe. Um,
9:14
so anyways, a long story short, I ended up,
9:17
uh, going to teachers college, becoming a
9:19
teacher for a couple years. Uh, and then
9:22
after I was married, um,
9:25
uh, just, you know, discerning things with my
9:28
wife, we made the decision that, yeah, we were
9:31
being called to, uh, at least explore
9:34
the idea of pursuing ordained ministry.
9:37
Um, it's interesting, Martha, but
9:40
I did not have a passion for the anglican church at that point,
9:43
really. I'd been raised. The most
9:46
vibrant churches I've been part of were not anglican. They were
9:49
like, again, like Baptist, kind of free
9:51
flowing, just low, low church stuff.
9:54
Uh, I remember I told my parents I want to
9:57
become a minister or whatever, and they were
10:00
like, that's amazing. And I said, but I'm not interested in the
10:02
anglican church. And they were like, what? But,
10:05
um, then we actually ended up, um,
10:08
doing a little tour of Wycliffe College.
10:11
And that did change my thinking, I would have
10:14
to say. I would say, okay, maybe there's a way to be
10:16
anglican and still be able to exercise
10:19
the gifts that I feel God's given me and kind of
10:22
pursue the passions and interests that I have.
10:25
Um, so that led to me going to Wycliffe
10:28
College. And, uh, yeah, I can't
10:31
remember exactly what the question was, but
10:34
that's kind of how I ended up slowly over
10:37
time, through some various experiences, kind of feeling ultimately
10:40
called to ministry.
10:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow, that's amazing. I want to put a pin
10:44
in that piece around, uh, you know,
10:47
anglican and then your experience
10:50
of, um, vibrant, flourishing churches
10:53
and other denominations, because I do want to come back to that
10:56
piece. I think that's an interesting part
10:58
of, um, how you've been a blessing to the
11:01
anglican church, frankly. Uh,
11:04
and why I've really valued our,
11:07
um, collegial relationship over the years.
11:09
So definitely want to follow up on that.
11:12
Um, it's so interesting hearing your story
11:15
because, like, there's so many components that
11:18
are so similar to mine
11:21
and some parts that are really different. Like, I also
11:24
grew up in a very small,
11:27
um, rural anglican church,
11:30
and, um, kind of went kicking
11:33
and screaming. I mean, I didn't
11:36
really go kicking and screaming because I just wanted to make my parents
11:38
happy, but, like, I wasn't happy
11:41
going. And I think that there is a,
11:44
uh. For those of us who are raised in the church, I
11:47
think most of us have a time,
11:50
um, somewhere in our teens,
11:53
maybe early twenties, where there's
11:55
this conversion process we have to go
11:58
through as well in terms
12:01
of, um, laying claim to the
12:03
faith for ourselves. I would say my experience
12:07
of that time was quite
12:10
solitary because I was really the only young person
12:13
in my church at that time. And how cool for
12:15
you that it was sparked by this
12:18
group of friends.
12:19
>> Rob: That you had when you
12:22
went through that process and kind of made this faith
12:25
your own. Was it strictly within
12:29
the anglican tradition or did you two need
12:32
to, um,
12:34
experience faith in another context or something
12:37
in order to kind of have it really?
12:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So that's the other difference between our
12:42
journeys is, like, the anglican church was really
12:45
my formation ground through and through. And I
12:48
say all the time, like, I do feel
12:50
like that particular combination of anglican
12:53
charisms is what allows me to
12:56
be a follower of Jesus, whereas I feel
12:59
like, um, you know,
13:02
you kind of bring these other charisms
13:05
into the anglican tradition in a really neat
13:08
way. So.
13:12
>> Rob: So you don't feel attention,
13:15
um, between. Because I
13:18
still feel attention even to this day. I think I felt
13:21
attention during that kind of coming
13:24
to faith moment about, oh, uh, I don't really feel
13:27
like I fit here. This is kind of more. And that was, like, a
13:30
tough tension to navigate. I still
13:33
feel like in my ministry today, that tension has not gone away.
13:36
I still struggle between the traditional expression
13:39
of our church and where I am right now, which is very kind
13:42
of.
13:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, let's come back to that, because I really want
13:45
to dig into that a little bit. And just
13:48
as a short answer to your question, no, I
13:50
don't really. I feel lots of tension
13:53
about life in the church in lots of ways. But
13:56
for me, like,
13:59
the particular, um,
14:02
expression of anglicanism definitely
14:05
works for me as a follower of Jesus.
14:08
So why don't you just share with our listeners a
14:10
little bit about where you serve right now? Because it
14:13
is. You've been there a couple of years and it is
14:16
a bit of a unique expression in the anglican
14:19
church.
14:21
>> Rob: Yeah. So after
14:24
going through three or four traditional church
14:27
settings, did my curacy at St. Luke's in
14:30
Burlington, I served at a small church in
14:32
port Colborne, Ontario, and then,
14:36
uh, downtown at St. Paul's for a couple years.
14:38
Now I find myself for
14:41
America. Yeah, St. Paul's Bloor street.
14:44
Yep. Um, anyways, now I'm.
14:47
I've hung up the robes, I have taken, uh,
14:50
off the collar, I've taken off the stole in the cassock and surplus,
14:53
and now I find myself at a church called Trinity
14:55
Streetsville, which, um,
14:58
they, ah, years ago they even took the word
15:01
Anglican out of. Off the sign
15:04
out front. So anyone who's driving by this
15:07
place would not say, oh, there's the local anglican
15:09
church. It's kind of. It's a newer
15:12
building. It's definitely a, ah, more.
15:16
I don't know what to say, almost pentecostal kind of
15:18
feeling. Uh, worship service. The.
15:21
There's. The architecture
15:24
doesn't, at least inside, doesn't resemble a typical
15:27
anglican church. So, ah, it's a very different
15:30
form of anglican church. I would even dare say that. I don't know
15:33
that there's really many anglican churches in the country
15:36
that look
15:39
and worship on a Sunday morning like Trinity
15:42
Streetsville does. I mean, you would probably, um,
15:45
have a perspective.
15:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, I think it's pretty unique, honestly. And
15:48
our country anyway, like, it
15:51
definitely has a very. I think that there are
15:54
churches that have adopted
15:57
some of those components,
16:00
um, in our anglican tradition.
16:02
But I think, ah, Trinity's kind of
16:05
led the way for a different
16:08
expression of anglicanism.
16:11
>> Rob: Yeah, there's quite a story, I
16:14
think, to how they got here. But I. They. I think they
16:17
lean here. We lean into, you know, using
16:20
technology a lot, you know, uh,
16:23
um, even on a Sunday morning, of course, there's. The
16:26
instrumentation is. Is more like a
16:29
worship band than a. Than, you know, organ
16:31
and choir robes and all that kind of thing. And, you know, they
16:34
use light a lot. So rather than changing a lot of
16:37
decorations, uh, in the church, seasonally, it's more
16:40
like just changing the lighting to kind of produce different
16:43
colors and effects and feels depending on the
16:46
season. So, yeah, it's a different place. I actually
16:49
really love it. Um, but I'm also
16:51
aware that I'm in a kind of a different
16:54
place than some of my anglican colleagues.
16:57
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, just rounding out our opening
17:00
questions, um, and then we'll dig into some
17:03
of these things in a little bit more detail.
17:06
Um, is there a spiritual practice,
17:09
rob, that you're finding particularly meaningful right
17:11
now?
17:14
>> Rob: Um, about a year and a half ago,
17:17
both my wife and I joined this
17:20
community. Um, it, uh, goes by the name of
17:23
habitus. Um.
17:25
Uh, it's a community of, uh,
17:28
spiritual practice, uh, where
17:31
basically you adopt a, uh, rule of life
17:34
and try to live according to that
17:36
rule, uh, with both kind of,
17:39
uh, individual, kind of personal, um,
17:42
spiritual practices as well as they put
17:45
you into a triad, what they call, like, so a group
17:48
of three, uh, which weekly
17:51
you are supposed to gather and meet with your
17:53
triad for, you know, fellowship and encouragement. And then
17:56
monthly they have, um, what they
17:59
call a commons gathering, which they'll have some
18:02
teaching on spiritual practice, or they're bringing a
18:05
speaker. Um, so we've been at this now
18:08
for over a year, and I
18:11
am, um. I mean, it's challenging, for sure to. And,
18:14
you know, you don't. You're
18:16
often not practicing this rule
18:19
as well as you would like to be practicing
18:22
it. But, um, uh, I think the most
18:25
beneficial part of that has been the triad, actually, for me, that
18:28
I get to meet with these two other guys every
18:31
week. And we talk about life, but we also
18:34
talk about our spiritual life and how it's going as we try to
18:37
live out this rule. So I'd actually encourage people to
18:40
check it out. It's the guys. The guy who created
18:42
is named Phil renders, and he is a
18:45
CRC pastor in Oakville. And,
18:48
um, he's kind of just trying to get this
18:51
idea, this movement off the ground. But yeah, he's got a
18:54
pretty good website. Um, it's called
18:57
habitus.
18:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I was wondering whether I could get him on the podcast.
19:01
That sounds like it could be an interesting thing to share
19:04
with our listeners.
19:07
>> Rob: He's an amazing thinker and speaker one.
19:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, maybe I can get some follow up contact
19:12
information from you, because it does sound like a really
19:15
powerful initiative in those
19:18
different components, the rule of life and
19:21
the community that's holding you to
19:23
it. Okay, well,
19:26
um, let's delve in a little bit
19:29
more. Um, there are a number of reasons
19:32
why I wanted to have you on the podcast, Rob.
19:35
Um, I've
19:38
been thinking a lot since,
19:40
um, our 20th anniversary of
19:43
ordination this past spring
19:46
about, um, that kind of midpoint
19:49
in ministry for those of us who,
19:51
uh, have that particular blessing of getting to
19:54
be, um, like,
19:57
have a lifelong career
20:00
in ministry. Um, I know you said that you taught for
20:03
a couple of years, but by and large, we both came
20:06
into ministry, um, like
20:09
pretty green and young,
20:12
um, and we have that significant, ah,
20:16
chunk of experience now under our belts, and we
20:19
also have God, ah, willing, a
20:21
significant Runway of ministry still in front of
20:24
us. Um, so I thought it would be
20:27
just interesting in general, to talk about that
20:30
midpoint, but also
20:32
specifically, I wanted to talk to you
20:35
because you are a voice in
20:38
the church, um, for whom I've always had the
20:41
utmost respect and admiration.
20:44
And you've always been someone that, uh,
20:46
that I walk away from our conversations and
20:49
think, oh, well, I like that.
20:52
Gives me a different way of seeing things, or
20:55
I hadn't thought of that.
20:57
Um, and,
20:59
uh, I think
21:02
that, um, you just bring so
21:04
many gifts to ministry. So
21:07
let's talk first about that midpoint in
21:10
ministry, and maybe we can look back
21:13
a little bit together.
21:16
Um, what has been different
21:19
about the life of ministry
21:22
from what you expected or
21:25
prepared for?
21:28
>> Rob: Yeah. Thank you for those words, Martha. That's very
21:31
kind. I, um,
21:33
think that one of the things that I
21:36
learned pretty quickly as I moved
21:39
from being ordained
21:42
into actual ministry is that I
21:45
needed to learn to slow down,
21:48
uh, to slow. And I'm not even talking about just, like,
21:51
my pace of life. I, uh, mean, like,
21:54
slow down in my
21:56
expectations about how to bring about
21:59
change in a church or how to,
22:02
um, experiment with things.
22:06
Uh, according to the Clifton strength
22:09
finder personality test or whatever, my
22:11
top two strengths are
22:14
ideation, which means I'm an idea person,
22:17
and activator, which means I like to
22:20
start things, or I like to try things. So,
22:23
um, I think that's actually
22:26
pretty, uh, true, actually, if I reflect on
22:29
my life. But I think the downside is that when I would have,
22:32
especially at the beginning, when I came into a situation, I was like,
22:35
oh, I have an idea. Let's try this. And.
22:38
And I would try to get this idea off the ground. I tried to get that
22:41
idea off the ground. And, um, and
22:44
then many times, um, you know, I did
22:46
do that, and I would push to try to have something happen,
22:49
and it would happen. And I think my poor congregation kind
22:52
of went along with it and, like, was dragged this way and
22:55
that, uh, as the new minister, you know,
22:58
tried various things. But I
23:01
think that the learning that eventually came to
23:04
me by God's grace, is that, uh, if
23:07
I. Unless I want to be the only
23:09
one running out there with an
23:12
idea, I got to slow down
23:14
and, um,
23:17
start to appreciate that,
23:19
um, uh, these kind of things
23:22
change takes time. And
23:25
to kind of ram it down people's throats, uh,
23:28
it doesn't work. I know these things seem. They seem obvious to
23:31
me now, as I say it, but I think at the time, I probably
23:33
overwhelmed people, uh, with
23:36
ideas. Um, and
23:39
I must say, some of those ideas actually, I think, worked out
23:42
and were successful. Many did not. Uh, but
23:45
I think the point is, I didn't bring anybody with interesting. Yeah,
23:48
I just. I just kind of raced ahead.
23:51
And that actually can become a recipe for burnout,
23:54
because if you got an idea and you say, let's go, and you run
23:57
ahead and nobody's with you, then who's carrying it? Well, you are.
24:00
And now it's up to you to kind of keep
24:03
carrying it. And if you have lots of ideas,
24:06
then pretty soon you're carrying a whole bunch of things. And,
24:09
um. And that, I think, is a recipe for burning
24:11
yourself out. So, um. So that
24:14
was one learning, but, uh, I had another, but I don't know if
24:17
you have any thoughts on. On that.
24:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I really relate to that. I think the
24:23
other piece about burnout in all of that is
24:25
that, um. Like,
24:30
I really had to learn, um,
24:33
how to not be just
24:36
so personally invested in my ideas all by
24:39
myself, too, because then it
24:42
hurt when.
24:44
When other people
24:47
had ways of making those ideas
24:50
better, because it felt like
24:53
I was just way too territorial about
24:56
my ideas. I think earlier on,
24:59
uh. And I think that's another component
25:02
of running out in front without
25:05
other people. With you.
25:09
>> Rob: Yeah. Ah, yeah. And
25:12
I think related to that for
25:14
me was,
25:16
um. I
25:20
read a lot of the church
25:23
growth kind of books and
25:25
the literature that was out there right around the time when I
25:28
was in seminary. I can still remember
25:31
a, uh, reading in the reading room at Wycliffe
25:34
College, uh, Rick Warren's purpose driven
25:37
church. Not purpose driven light, not. Not purpose
25:39
driven life, but purpose driven church, which was his, like, first book.
25:42
And I remember reading it and
25:45
highlighting. And I have never highlighted a book so
25:48
much in my life. I was like, yes, yes,
25:50
yes. Absolutely, yes. I still remember, like, I
25:53
still to this day, I remember, like, the
25:56
concentric circles of, like, you've got the community and
25:59
you've got the crowd and the congregation and the
26:02
core and the committed and. And the
26:04
baseball diamond where, you know, it was like,
26:08
class 101 and class 201, class 301.
26:10
He had just organized it in such a beautiful
26:13
way, which I'm certain, made
26:17
sense for his context and for the size of his church.
26:20
And, uh, obviously, I think, was a very
26:22
successful model for what he was trying to do. I'm sure lots of lives
26:25
were changed with it, but, um,
26:30
that's one example. But I think there was lots of, um,
26:33
material like that that I grabbed onto
26:35
initially and said, oh, this will work, or this will
26:38
work. And I really wanted to kind
26:41
of implement, and it kind of goes along with my
26:44
desire to kind of try a new idea and to
26:47
kind of race out in front of. But it's a little different. I
26:50
think what I didn't appreciate
26:53
was an obviously huge difference in
26:55
context, um, between where this
26:58
literature was coming from, you know, mega churches
27:01
in the United States, versus where I
27:04
was, which was like a yemenite, a pastoral sized
27:07
church in port Colburn. So,
27:10
um, that was
27:13
a learning for me, I think it's, again, it's still
27:16
one of those struggles, I think, because, um,
27:19
it's not to say that there isn't stuff to be learned
27:22
from that, and it's not to say that, oh, you could use that
27:25
idea and, uh, that would be really helpful for helping
27:28
people grow in their faith. So it's not like just a
27:30
complete, uh, either, Orlando. But
27:33
it certainly is something that I have had to learn
27:36
more now is to say, okay, what is called for
27:39
in this context in this place. Um,
27:42
and, uh, you know, you can't just lift these ideas from one
27:45
place and plunk them down in another and expect that they're going to.
27:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, no, for sure. And, you know, I think the other
27:50
thing, too is that,
27:52
um, like, there is a component
27:55
of ministry that is about
27:58
like, throwing noodles at the wall and seeing what sticks. Like,
28:01
you do have to be willing to try some things and to
28:04
have some stuff work and some things not
28:06
work, um, and then try some more
28:09
things. And
28:11
I relate to
28:15
that sense of how those
28:18
ideas ideally become more
28:20
collaborative as we get, um,
28:23
collaborative and contextual as we get further
28:26
along in ministry. That's certainly being my
28:28
experience. I think,
28:30
um, one of the
28:33
conversations that clergy often
28:36
like to reflect on is
28:39
gaps in our ministry training, like
28:42
what we didn't learn at seminary
28:44
that, uh, we
28:47
just weren't prepared for when we actually got out into
28:50
our churches. Do you think that there's one or two
28:53
things that you would have wanted
28:56
included in your ministry training
28:59
back in the day?
29:02
>> Rob: I mean, the only thing that really came to
29:04
mind was, first of all, I
29:07
actually thought, um, my time in seminary was
29:11
pretty well rounded. And, you
29:14
know, there was obviously the core courses one had to take.
29:17
But in some of the elective courses, you were able to,
29:19
you know, choose stuff that was more in, uh, line with
29:22
your passions. But I think there
29:25
was maybe the
29:27
overarching desire
29:30
was to create clergy that could
29:33
bring stability to churches, like
29:35
bring to be a stabilizing
29:39
leader. Um. Uh,
29:43
I, uh, think that there was. Well, yeah, I can still remember Bishop
29:46
Ralph, um, who ordained both of
29:49
us. Um, I remember, I think when I was going out to my first
29:52
parish, his advice to me, I still
29:54
remember, was he said, rob, just love
29:57
them. Just love them. Just
30:02
at that time, these were two churches who had just
30:04
amalgamated, and there was a lot of potential
30:07
hurt. And his advice is they just need stability.
30:10
They just need someone to kind of
30:13
help, uh, them heal and just be. So
30:16
just go in and love them. And that's great advice. Um, I'm
30:19
not faulting.
30:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, like love is. I think that's, you know, central
30:22
to what we're about.
30:24
>> Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
30:27
absolutely. And so, um. And
30:30
yet at the same time, uh, I think we
30:33
know in the maybe, and
30:36
maybe it was because we were just at that tipping
30:39
point in the life of the church 20 years ago where we're
30:42
starting to realize that, you know what?
30:44
Um, we actually also need leaders who can
30:46
change things or can, uh,
30:49
lead congregations through change. And
30:53
if our training is so kind
30:55
of pastoral, which it needs to be, and
30:58
so focused on being a stabilizing leader, which
31:01
many, then actually, how do
31:03
we destabilize a
31:06
congregation in a way such that they can
31:09
actually start to think about new
31:12
possibilities? And I
31:14
think some of the literature would say that that's how
31:18
change happens in churches
31:20
is that a leader actually has to come in.
31:23
And I mean, the best leaders probably balance this perfectly, but on
31:26
the one hand they're caring for these people, but on the other hand,
31:29
there's a challenging presence, like a presence
31:32
that is trying to destabilize or trying to point out
31:35
that, um, this isn't working or
31:37
asking really tough questions and then kind of
31:40
letting the community try to figure out, well, how do we come
31:43
up with solutions to that, you know? So,
31:45
um, anyways, I think that was, that might
31:48
be the only thing I would say about our training, is
31:51
that, um, perhaps they needed
31:54
to equip us a little more on how to
31:57
lead change, um,
32:00
in what we're changing times.
32:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, and that's kind of the fundamental
32:05
reality. Right. Is that there's a dishonesty in
32:07
trying to be a stabilizing presence because
32:10
like we're just not in
32:13
a stable time. Like, the church is
32:16
not a stable institution in
32:19
a stable world at this moment. So,
32:22
um, yeah, I think that
32:23
uh, being an
32:26
effective change maker is a pretty
32:29
important part of our job.
32:34
>> Rob: Yeah. Uh, because, uh, it's out
32:36
of instability
32:39
where when you're knocked off
32:42
balance, that's when innovation happens. That's kind of
32:45
when novelty or not in the bad
32:48
sense, but new ideas get generated
32:50
when things are a little off balance and you're like, oh gosh, what
32:53
are we going to do here? So, um, yeah, learning how to
32:56
do that, though, is definitely a skill. Um, you don't
32:59
just go in and blow a place up and say, I did
33:02
my job here, I destabilized. Right? No, it's like,
33:05
it's. No, you're a, in fact, I've heard an expression
33:08
called a stable rupting leader. So it's
33:11
like uh, you're stabilizing, but you're also
33:13
disrupting at the same time. You're a stable rotor.
33:17
That's kind of the goal.
33:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, no, that's really good.
33:20
Okay, so let's,
33:24
um, go back to that pin that we put into
33:28
your background, uh,
33:30
and where you serve now in ministry,
33:33
and, uh, that kind of
33:35
conflict or sense of tension that you
33:38
feel with our anglican tradition.
33:41
Um, because that is one of the
33:44
reasons why I wanted to have you on the
33:47
pod. Um, because I
33:50
really admire, um,
33:52
how you kind of negotiate that balance.
33:56
I don't think that this label,
33:58
um, is all that descriptive,
34:01
but you're sort of an evangelical
34:04
Anglican. And, um, again, I don't
34:07
love it because I think we're all supposed to be
34:10
evangelical. Um, but
34:13
what I mean by that is to say that, um,
34:18
you bring a real confessional
34:21
element to, uh, the anglican
34:24
tradition. Um,
34:27
you always lead with absolute clarity about,
34:29
uh, Jesus being at the center of everything that we do.
34:32
I think you have a real gift for christian
34:35
apologetics, and,
34:38
um, you've also excelled at
34:41
leading congregations that don't get
34:43
super hung up in, um,
34:46
following all of the traditions of our
34:49
church, whether it's different musical styles
34:52
or, um, leaving the
34:55
vestments at the door or, um,
34:58
some of the other things that you noted about your current
35:01
context. So,
35:05
um, there aren't a lot of churches like the
35:08
one that, ah, you're at now. And
35:11
I think that,
35:13
um, your voice is somewhat
35:16
unique in our anglican church in
35:19
Canada. So can you just say a little bit
35:22
more about that tension
35:25
as well as, um, how
35:28
you've, like, managed to make that
35:30
tension work for the past 20 years?
35:36
>> Rob: Yeah. So this might not be the answer that
35:39
you are looking for. Expecting, not expecting,
35:42
but, um, I actually
35:45
don't feel that tension
35:48
at all. And I have to say,
35:53
um, you know, I have never
35:56
felt like any, what,
35:58
bishop or other
36:01
clergy have been, like, watching
36:04
me, um, making sure that
36:07
they agree with what I'm saying or agree with
36:10
what we're doing as a church. I've never felt anything but
36:13
like, hey, we actually
36:15
appreciate the
36:18
diversity of. Of different ways
36:21
of being a Christian in the ecosystem
36:24
that is our diocese. Um,
36:27
it actually makes me wonder if
36:29
there isn't, like, um. I
36:32
don't know, some. You know, I know there's been,
36:36
you know, maybe there's been changes over these last 20 years that
36:39
some evangelicals would say, I. You know, I don't agree with
36:42
that change, or I don't agree with that move that's being made by our
36:44
leadership. Or by our diocese.
36:47
And then their next thought is, oh,
36:50
therefore I cannot possibly operate
36:53
in this space, right. Uh, I can no longer
36:55
lead. Right. Because they've gone and done this or
36:58
they've gone and said that, or they've published this or whatever.
37:01
And, uh, I would say, yeah, maybe I also
37:04
didn't agree over the last two decades with
37:07
every decision that was made by our
37:10
bishops and leaders. But it never made
37:13
me feel like, now I don't fit here
37:16
or now I can't keep preaching this way,
37:19
or I can't keep leading this way. And so I
37:22
often wonder if there isn't, like in some people and this is
37:25
maybe a bad, like some kind of like a. Like a
37:27
martyr complex or something like. Like
37:30
that they. They're looking for
37:33
that ditch to die in and,
37:36
um. That they actually
37:39
make. I've. I mean, I've always had great relationships with my
37:42
bishops, um. Um. And I've.
37:45
So I actually have a hard time relating to the person
37:48
who would say, I'm an, ah, evangelical.
37:51
And, uh, I find it really hard to
37:54
operate in this, you
37:57
know, culture we have in the church. I've just
38:00
never felt that, uh. I don't
38:03
know if that makes any sense to you, but,
38:05
um. It's just not
38:07
been.
38:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, I really appreciate that answer.
38:12
I think thats really, um,
38:16
insightful. You did
38:18
name some sense of tension at the
38:21
beginning of our conversation. Was that kind of more around the
38:24
liturgical practices of the
38:27
church? Is that kind of where you feel more
38:29
of a, uh, rub?
38:31
>> Rob: Yeah, the tension would. That
38:34
tension isnt theological? I mean,
38:38
the liturgy of the church is, I think, deeply
38:40
theologically rich. And I love it
38:43
in many ways, very personally, as a devotional tool,
38:46
it's amazing. So the tension I have felt
38:49
there has not been about
38:53
this, uh, isn't a case of
38:55
my evangelical identity. It's been more
38:58
about how are we. What kind
39:01
of a. What kind of a church are we inviting
39:04
people into? Are we stuck in the
39:07
past in our forms and rituals and liturgies? And
39:10
then in a way, we're not able to really do cross
39:13
cultural mission with people because we're really asking them,
39:16
hey, come and. Come into this
39:19
world we've created and become like us. So that's
39:21
more. But that's not about the theology of
39:24
evangelicalism. It's more about.
39:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I kind of. You
39:29
asked me at the outset of our conversation
39:32
whether I feel some of that tension. And I
39:35
think for me, um,
39:38
that like, our anglican
39:41
parameters have been a source of
39:43
creativity for me, um, like I
39:46
find that sort of having these
39:49
forms and then being able to play within them and
39:52
imagine how music can be different
39:55
or our setting can be
39:57
different, or,
39:59
um, our imagery can be different
40:02
within the liturgical parameters. I have
40:05
found that very, uh,
40:08
creatively rich over
40:11
the years, and I'm guessing
40:14
you must have some of that
40:16
experience as well. Just given your track record
40:19
in ministry. You have done really creative
40:22
things within anglican parameters
40:25
over the years. Like, is that a component of it,
40:28
too?
40:29
>> Rob: Looking back, I do not feel like I have done much
40:32
creative in that
40:35
regard. Uh, I think most of the
40:37
creative things that I have done have been,
40:41
uh, outside of the Sunday morning experience,
40:44
or it's been a, uh, creative project in the community,
40:47
or, uh, um, maybe a fresh expression
40:49
of church or creative way of organizing
40:52
your staff team or something like that. But
40:55
looking back, I don't feel like I
40:58
was creative in
41:00
the liturgy very much. I basically.
41:04
That wasn't my gift for one to come up with
41:07
creative forms of liturgy. Um.
41:10
Uh, I think what is the tension
41:13
is, okay. Like, right now, I find myself in a place
41:16
that is so different
41:19
that it's almost like. And
41:22
I don't want this to sound the wrong way, but I almost feel like
41:25
scales have fallen off my eyes. And that sounds horrible because it
41:28
makes anyone who's still doing a
41:31
liturgical, uh, kind of form of anglicanism, which just what everybody
41:34
is, it makes the sound lesser than. That's not what I'm saying at all.
41:37
But I'm actually saying that I don't know that I can go back
41:40
at this point. I feel like I've gotten to
41:42
this place and experienced a, uh,
41:45
way of doing church and of living out our anglican
41:48
faith, which seems to be accepted by our diocese and even,
41:51
you know, in some ways protected.
41:54
Um, and I. It
41:56
works. I think it does work. I think it makes sense.
41:59
And I. I really
42:01
believe that. I mean, this is
42:04
missions. This is like missionary work 101,
42:07
right? The idea is when you're trying to reach
42:09
people of a different culture or different
42:12
language or different customs, you don't expect
42:15
them to come to you,
42:18
and you don't expect them to do the cross cultural work.
42:21
You don't expect them to say, uh, let me learn your language, let me
42:24
learn this calendar, let me learn what
42:27
these symbols, investments, and let me learn
42:29
what these hymns and colics.
42:34
I'm probably going overboard here, but there's a
42:37
sense, I think, still within anglicanism, even the way that
42:40
I operated for most of my ministry career,
42:42
where people were walking into a place
42:45
and there are. There's just so many triggers
42:48
and barriers in there
42:51
that I know that there's
42:54
many. There's some people who would say, oh, isn't that
42:56
beautiful? It's so rich, it's so deep. This is what I've been
42:59
looking for my whole life. And there will always be some people like that.
43:02
And there will always be Anglicans that say, the young people
43:05
love the liturgy. The millennials are coming back to the liturgy. You
43:08
know, the next generation is hungry for liturgy.
43:11
And there are some, there's no doubt, but I think they're
43:14
overstating their case. I just don't think
43:17
that's where most people are. I think most
43:20
people do find when they walk into
43:22
our churches, there's a lot of stuff there.
43:25
It's foreign. And rather,
43:28
missionary work is what you do.
43:31
You say, we're going to learn your language, we're going to learn your cousins, we're going to
43:34
learn to the styles and
43:37
the cultural aspects of who you are, and then we're going to
43:40
find a way to incarnate the gospel, or kind
43:43
of communicate the gospel in a language and in
43:46
a way that is going to make sense for you, is going to
43:48
help you be able to understand this.
43:51
And, um, I feel like
43:54
what we're doing here right now
43:57
is more of an expression of that
44:00
than my previous ministry. Personally speaking,
44:03
though, I just have to state this. I find
44:06
the liturgy. I mean, my BCP sitting right here, I find the
44:09
liturgy deeply rich and
44:12
formative to this day. Uh, so it's not a
44:15
personal like or dislike. Uh, I find it deeply rich,
44:18
but I'm just not certain how it fits in with,
44:20
um, those who are
44:23
seeking the church in the first place.
44:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, and I think that the. The ministry context
44:28
in which you serve is such an
44:31
amazing example of
44:34
God kind of gathering up a lot
44:36
of the threads of your life
44:39
into, um,
44:42
a ministry context for which you are
44:44
just extremely well suited.
44:49
I think, um, when
44:51
you were announced as the
44:55
new lead pastor of
44:58
Streetsville, like, everybody went,
45:00
yeah, that makes sense. Like, Rob should
45:03
be there. Right? Like, you're doing.
45:07
Like, God is doing a really great thing in you, in
45:10
that church.
45:12
>> Rob: Yeah. And I am definitely, though,
45:15
the recipient of, I think, other
45:18
people's hard work in that regard. Like, I was talking
45:21
about disruptive leadership. Right.
45:23
Um, so I think everybody in
45:26
Canada and the anglican church knows that, you
45:29
know, 25 years ago,
45:31
Harold Percy was that kind
45:34
of disruptive, stabilizing, uh,
45:37
disruptive leader that came in and with the support
45:40
of his bishop, really, uh, was able to do
45:43
something very different. And it wasn't easy,
45:46
and there certainly were people who didn't like it and all
45:49
that, but, um, um, you know, I don't know if I even
45:52
have, like, the, the courage to do half the things that he did.
45:55
Um, um, I'm not sure that certain times call for
45:58
it, frankly, but, um. Um. But, yeah, it's.
46:01
I don't for a second. I've only been here three and a half years.
46:04
The, the Trinity Streetsville has, you know,
46:07
what it is has very little to do with me, uh, at this point,
46:10
I. I'm actually kind of just being evangelized
46:13
by it, in a sense, as I survive.
46:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's a good example of God's
46:18
grace as well. Absolutely.
46:21
Um, so,
46:24
like, 20 years in,
46:27
uh, as we're just kind of reflecting on the
46:30
present at the moment, like, how do you
46:33
stay fresh in ministry?
46:36
What keeps you
46:38
renewed? Hopefully,
46:41
um,
46:44
uh, what gets you up each
46:47
day?
46:48
>> Rob: Um, I still do love getting
46:51
up to come to work every day. I really,
46:54
really do. Um, I
46:57
think part of what makes that
47:00
happen for me is I really love the people that I work
47:03
with. Um, I love the
47:05
staff team that we've, we've built here at Trinity.
47:08
I think they're all, like, such talented
47:11
people who bring gifts that
47:14
I just don't have at all. I mean, going
47:16
back to how I started, you know, many
47:19
of us in our first church, we were the ones who kind of knew
47:22
the most about everything. We knew the most about tech, we knew the most about
47:25
music. We knew the most about, you know, preaching. We knew the most
47:28
about pastoral care. We knew the most about the finances, whatever.
47:31
Right. I, uh, guess I'm just. Right now I'm in a situation where I'm
47:34
just deeply, deeply aware that everybody
47:36
around me is so extraordinarily
47:39
talented at their jobs that, um, my
47:42
role as a leader now is something totally, totally different.
47:45
So I think that is one of the
47:48
things that energizes me the most, is actually coming in
47:51
and getting to work alongside these folks.
47:54
Um, if I'm honest.
47:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Uh, I can
47:58
definitely co sign that. I
48:01
think one of the most exciting
48:04
things in ministry is,
48:07
like, the, uh, uh,
48:10
many gifts, one spirit. Right? Like,
48:13
uh, you really do have this
48:16
incredible opportunity to
48:18
behold, um, the
48:21
gifts of God working in other people,
48:24
and, um, to see how that.
48:27
How that makes amazing things
48:30
happen.
48:31
>> Rob: Yeah. So you asked the question, you know, what kind of things
48:34
sustained me or sustained me in ministry? And I
48:36
have to say that when I first got here to trinity,
48:39
one of the big
48:43
gifts that was given to me is that our bishop set us up
48:45
with a coach. Uh, and this
48:48
coach met with us for an
48:51
hour every week. And my
48:53
coach that lasted for two years.
48:56
And I can just,
48:58
um, if I stop and I think of the
49:01
sheer amount of time I spent talking to that
49:04
person about what I was going through and what I
49:07
was learning and what I was struggling with, what was going good, what was not
49:10
going not so good. Um, that was like a
49:13
huge piece of, I think,
49:16
helping, uh, me get off to a great start here at
49:19
trinity. Ah. Um, it was. It was a real gift. I actually
49:22
wanted to get it to keep on going, but I think two years
49:25
was the most they were willing to. To pay for.
49:28
But, uh, I was just recently thinking I should
49:30
again enlist the help of a coach, because
49:33
it's just so good to have somebody who's, like, maybe just a step or two
49:36
removed from your ministry situation who can kind of look
49:39
at it with fresh eyes, look at it another
49:42
perspective. Um, she was an amazing coach
49:45
because over those two years, she got to know all the players, all the
49:48
people, she got to know all the staff and what was going on.
49:51
And then every week she would say, how did this go and how did that go and how
49:54
is so and so doing? And on and on like that.
49:57
So that I think having that
50:00
person in your life to. To check in with you
50:02
regularly is key,
50:05
uh, for going strong in this work
50:08
we do.
50:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And, you know, I've had those coaching relationships at
50:12
a couple of key junctures, like in
50:15
starting a new ministry. But I also had a coach
50:18
at a really, like, critical juncture when
50:21
I'd been here at St. George's for quite a while.
50:23
And that was incredibly helpful, too, just
50:27
in terms of getting out of
50:29
any ruts that I was sort of
50:32
finding myself in and just. Yeah. Like,
50:35
rethinking the dynamics and the organization
50:38
and that kind of thing. I would highly
50:41
recommend those coaching relationships
50:44
as well. When
50:46
we got, uh, together with,
50:49
um, the parts of our coordination
50:52
cohort that we were able to round up to have a little
50:55
anniversary celebration in the spring, I
50:58
was really interested, uh,
51:01
to hear your thoughts about the
51:04
future of the church and,
51:07
um, and what kind of
51:09
leadership model is needed
51:12
for the church today.
51:14
Um, you said to
51:17
our group that
51:20
your picture about that leadership model has
51:23
really shifted in the last
51:26
number of years. Um,
51:30
based on that 20 years of experience,
51:33
can you share with
51:35
our, uh, audience today
51:38
just a little bit about that shifting
51:41
picture?
51:43
>> Rob: Yeah, I think if I remember when we spoke,
51:46
I told you that when we first
51:49
began this life of the
51:52
priesthood and in church ministry. The
51:55
leadership model that really stuck in my
51:58
mind and that I kind of operated from
52:00
for a long time was, uh, the idea of
52:03
the visionary leader. I think that's maybe what you. Yeah.
52:06
And, um, at least
52:09
at the time when I thought of visionary leader
52:12
or when I read books on visionary leadership,
52:15
it was this idea that there was,
52:17
um, a certain kind of skill that a leader could develop
52:20
that would allow them to see what
52:23
the future held to kind of be the. The
52:26
lead sled dog, uh, in the
52:29
pack of dogs. And you had the best view. You could see
52:32
ahead better than other people behind you could see. And so.
52:35
And so as a visionary leader, you kind of saw
52:38
the future and you called people to
52:41
follow me. Uh, you know, I know where I'm going. This, uh, is
52:44
where. And you. So you cast a picture
52:46
of the future, cast your vision and communicate
52:49
your vision, and then get people to follow you
52:52
into that vision. And,
52:55
um, I should say I still do think we need
52:58
visionary leaders. Uh, it's not like that
53:01
way of leading is completely
53:03
obsolete. But I, uh,
53:06
think that now I
53:08
realize that most of the problems
53:11
and challenges that the church faces
53:13
are so complex and
53:16
so multifaceted that
53:19
no one person could
53:22
possibly have the ability
53:25
or the vision or the skills or the know
53:27
how to be able to say, hey, follow me. I have
53:30
this privileged view of where we go from here. Just
53:33
kind of like, uh, trust me and come along.
53:36
And, uh, so I think that
53:39
now I have kind of moved in my own thinking from
53:42
this idea of a visionary leader to
53:46
more of a collaborative, uh, model of
53:49
leadership. On my best days, I
53:52
try to make sure that I'm involving
53:55
as many people as possible in leadership
53:57
decisions. Uh, I did some doctoral work just recently,
54:00
and one of the kind of names I
54:03
gave to this way of, uh, leading
54:05
was shared leadership. Kind of
54:09
trying to, uh, invite others
54:11
into leadership. Um,
54:14
and there's fake ways of doing this sometimes. I
54:17
mean, you can be like the, uh, oh, I'm
54:20
sharing leadership, but really all you're doing is you're just being a
54:23
backseat driver, right? You're just saying like, hey, turn here
54:26
or slow down, you're going too fast. And so
54:28
I think I've made some of those mistakes, too, where I'm trying to empower
54:31
people to lead. Um,
54:34
uh, but I'm not really doing that. I'm kind of, like,
54:37
disempowering them and I'm disabling them or
54:39
directing them. And that's. That's not great.
54:42
Um, so, but at its best, it's.
54:45
It's really, um. I don't know,
54:48
just leading as a community,
54:51
leading as a team in a collaborative
54:53
way, I think, is the.
54:57
Is the only way we can really kind of
55:00
m sort through some of the problems that we're. We're facing these
55:03
days. That. So that's the first thing I
55:06
would say, that one of the big shifts. I mean, you probably noticed that,
55:09
too.
55:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. I, uh, remember
55:14
you're saying at lunch that the
55:16
smartest person in the room is the room,
55:19
and, boy, that's a good
55:22
place to get to, I think. And it's not, like, unrelated
55:25
to where we started off in terms
55:28
of learning to slow down. I
55:31
think, um,
55:33
doing that deep listening, that,
55:37
uh, that discernment
55:40
around, um,
55:42
context and collaboration in terms of how we
55:45
figure out next steps going forward, I
55:48
think that those are all, um, very
55:51
much related to what you're saying about that shifting
55:53
leadership model.
55:55
>> Rob: Yeah. And I would add to that
55:58
as I think about how do we expand leadership. I think we
56:01
also have to have a conversation about lay leadership,
56:04
um, because to me,
56:07
the future of the church
56:10
has, uh, got to be very heavily weighted
56:13
toward lay leadership. Um, I just think with
56:16
the decline that we're all witnessing
56:18
in the anchor Church of Canada
56:22
and also realizing that, my goodness, the gifts we
56:25
need to do, the work we need to do
56:28
in the setting that we're in are nothing
56:30
gifts that most of us are learning in
56:33
seminary, they're not the, like we
56:36
have to tap into. Just, I think, way
56:39
more, uh, gifts and talents
56:42
than clergy can generally bring to the table.
56:45
So I think as we extend leadership, as
56:48
we bring others into leadership, I think we have to be
56:50
thinking, you know, not just clerical leadership,
56:53
but beyond that.
56:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And, I mean, I think that that is, um,
56:58
a, uh, theology of the body of Christ and of the
57:01
church that has a
57:04
lot more, um,
57:06
scriptural weight to back it up than this
57:09
notion that it's just
57:12
one person out in front with a collar on
57:15
who has the relevant gifts to lead
57:18
a church. Even the word lay leadership
57:21
kind of suggests that, like.
57:24
Like a layperson suggests that
57:27
people don't have the
57:29
expertise that we have. Right.
57:32
Like, we're the ones with the training, and they're lay
57:35
people without the expertise. But, like, that's
57:39
a false way of defining it, too. Right.
57:41
Like, we need all of
57:44
the various components of expertise in
57:47
order to be the church and in order to
57:50
serve.
57:51
>> Rob: Yeah. There would have been a time, not long before I got here, there
57:54
were three clergy here, and.
57:57
And yeah. There was other people on the staff team who
58:00
were not ordained, but, uh, as it stands right now,
58:03
I'm the only ordained person on the, on the team,
58:06
which does have some drawbacks from time to time, I will say.
58:09
But, uh, I think that the
58:12
benefits outweigh those drawbacks because we've been able to
58:15
kind of hire instead, uh, people
58:17
with just way different kind of talents
58:20
than clergy would bring.
58:23
Mhm.
58:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Really fill out the skill sets and,
58:27
um, navigate the uncertain
58:30
waters.
58:31
>> Rob: Yeah, it's so, um,
58:34
sometimes I think we need to think when we are building a
58:37
team, not just skills, but
58:39
also, like, personality as well. And,
58:42
like, I remember we did this, like, assessment thing with our team
58:45
a couple years ago where we tried to, again,
58:48
you know, figure out where our. Our strengths and
58:51
our personalities landed us. And
58:54
this may not be incredibly surprising to you, but I was, like,
58:57
very, very low when it came
58:59
to empathy. Uh, I don't know, I always thought
59:02
I was, like, empathetic or whatever,
59:05
but, you know, I. You know, we.
59:08
We learned a lot about pastoral care and how to listen
59:11
and engage people in crisis moments with empathy.
59:13
But anyways, that's just not my natural thing. But our
59:16
worship leader, Libby, her, like, number
59:19
one thing was empathy. Like, she.
59:22
She was. It was literally, like, opposite ends of the
59:25
spectrum, and it made me think, like, yeah, so
59:28
it's. It's not just that she has a different skill set than I
59:31
do, which she does. Right. She's musical in a way
59:34
that I'll never be, and I. But she
59:36
also has gifts and a personality
59:39
type that is very different than mine. So that when we sit around a table
59:42
and we're thinking through things together, um,
59:45
it's good that she's just built differently that
59:47
way.
59:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
59:51
Yeah. Those complimentary.
59:54
Complimentary gifts, complimentary personalities.
59:56
That's amazing. Yeah.
59:59
Well, thank you, Rob, for. I, um, know
1:00:02
that we could probably just talk for a
1:00:05
couple more hours about all of
1:00:08
the things that, um, we wish we
1:00:10
had known 20 years ago and the things that we've learned along the
1:00:13
way. But, uh, why don't we take
1:00:16
a pause right now and we can come back for a couple
1:00:19
of rapid fire closing questions,
1:00:23
um, and then we'll go from there.
1:00:26
>> Rob: Okay, sounds good.
1:00:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome back to the Future Christian podcast.
1:00:33
And, uh, we are going to wrap up
1:00:36
today's episode with Rob Herkmans with a
1:00:39
couple of rapid fire questions. Rob, are you
1:00:41
ready?
1:00:42
>> Rob: Let's do it.
1:00:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, if you could be pope
1:00:46
for a day, what would that day
1:00:49
look like? What would be on your agenda, uh, for 24
1:00:52
hours.
1:00:53
>> Rob: Oh, man. That's not quite what I thought. The question,
1:00:56
like, for a whole day, what would you do all day long?
1:00:59
I just thought of one thing that I thought, you know, what I would really like to
1:01:02
do, but maybe I should have had a bigger
1:01:05
vision than this. But anyways, here's the thing. Years ago here
1:01:08
at Trinity, um, the former pastor created this
1:01:11
thing called the Institute for
1:01:14
Evangelism, and it was like this kind
1:01:16
of brand new way to help people grow in
1:01:19
their comfortability with sharing the gospel with other people. Anyways,
1:01:22
I think given our conversation we've had today, and
1:01:25
I. Where we're at, I would love to create something
1:01:28
and call it an institute of
1:01:31
leadership development or an institute of lay leadership development
1:01:34
or something like that, because I think, for me, I think that's
1:01:37
where it's at today, is building up new leaders, and
1:01:40
especially lay leaders. I think that's key to the future of the church. So that's where I
1:01:43
put my energy. If that's the decision
1:01:46
I would make as pope, well, I don't
1:01:49
think that.
1:01:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: That'S lacking in vision at all. I think that that's
1:01:52
a great way to say, spend your day as possible.
1:01:55
>> Rob: Okay, good.
1:01:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's a good answer. And I should have said at the beginning of
1:01:59
the rapid fire questions, is that you can
1:02:01
take these questions as seriously as you want or
1:02:04
not.
1:02:04
>> Rob: Okay.
1:02:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, you know, there's no, like,
1:02:08
wrong answer.
1:02:09
>> Rob: Okay. Okay.
1:02:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, let's continue on here. So what, who
1:02:13
would be a theologian or historical christian figure
1:02:16
who you would want to meet, have supper with,
1:02:19
bring back to life for a conversation?
1:02:23
>> Rob: I mean, most of these people are way out of my league, but,
1:02:25
um, just this past Sunday, I referenced
1:02:28
somebody in my sermon that I referenced a few times, and that was
1:02:31
this preacher by the name of, uh, doctor Martin Lloyd
1:02:34
Jones. And the reason I find him
1:02:37
fascinating is he lived
1:02:39
for, I think, was born in 1901. He died
1:02:42
in the early 1980s. But he was a medical
1:02:45
doctor, so he began his career as a medical doctor
1:02:48
and then transitioned later into,
1:02:51
um, being a minister. He, for 30 years, preached
1:02:54
at the Westminster chapel in
1:02:57
London. He was a great orator,
1:03:00
very, uh, you know, he rolled his r's. He was
1:03:03
Welsh. He had, ah. Um. But this idea that
1:03:06
he was both a doctor. So he had this science background, which
1:03:09
I do, um, and he was also a
1:03:11
pastor and preacher, which we do.
1:03:14
Um, that I thought, that's an interesting
1:03:17
mix, and that be just wonderful
1:03:19
to see how that played out in his
1:03:22
own ministry.
1:03:24
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, good answer and one that we haven't
1:03:27
had before. Sometimes we have
1:03:29
repeat, uh, answers on
1:03:32
future Christian, but I have not heard that answer before. That's
1:03:35
good. I have to look him up. What
1:03:38
will history remember from our current time and
1:03:40
place?
1:03:42
>> Rob: Well, uh, there's no doubt about it that
1:03:44
the current moment we occupy, Martha, is
1:03:48
a time of decline
1:03:51
in, uh, the anglican church as we know
1:03:54
it. As we know it. And, um, kind of
1:03:57
the end of maybe a period of Christendom as we know it.
1:04:00
And so we get to actually witness this
1:04:02
happening, uh, whether it's by 2040, as Neil
1:04:05
Elliot says, or not. But there are. There's going to
1:04:07
be some big changes that we're seeing. And
1:04:10
I. I can't help but think that's what people are going to look back at
1:04:13
this period, not only to say, hey, it, uh, was during that period
1:04:16
of time that the kind of institutional church like
1:04:19
anchor church really, really lost a lot of members. But
1:04:22
hopefully it's also a time where they look back and they
1:04:25
say, and as a result of those changes
1:04:28
they saw, there were these, uh, beautiful and innovative
1:04:31
ideas that came out of the
1:04:33
ashes, um, that planted seeds for the future
1:04:36
church.
1:04:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Uh, I think that
1:04:41
that's what I would hope for as
1:04:43
well. I know, like, I led a study in
1:04:46
our church about, um, the history of
1:04:49
St. George's, which is
1:04:52
over 230 years old. And
1:04:55
it was so interesting looking at the boom
1:04:58
times of St. George's and realizing that the
1:05:01
seeds of declined were being sown in the
1:05:04
midst of these
1:05:07
busting, booming times. And so I
1:05:10
imagine, like, the seeds of renewal are being
1:05:13
within our time of decline.
1:05:16
>> Rob: I like that.
1:05:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. What are your hopes for the future
1:05:20
of Christianity? I imagine this answer might be connected
1:05:23
to the.
1:05:24
>> Rob: Yeah, I, again, I think
1:05:28
a renewed investment in lay
1:05:30
leadership. I think the future of the church is going to
1:05:33
be less clerical. Uh, and so
1:05:36
I hope that, again, our church leadership kind of gets ahead
1:05:39
of that and starts to kind of create and train and
1:05:42
form christian leaders who can,
1:05:45
I don't know, just create different expressions
1:05:48
of church in their neighborhoods, in their coffee shops,
1:05:51
in their libraries, in their, you know, gymnasiums, in
1:05:54
their living rooms, whatever. Uh, that, uh,
1:05:57
again, it's maybe not as heavily
1:06:00
hierarchical or clerical, but
1:06:03
just kind of a new underground
1:06:06
movement of lay leadership
1:06:08
that plants those seeds of renewal, uh,
1:06:11
that we were just talking about. I think that's the way it has to happen.
1:06:14
So that's my hope.
1:06:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's your hope? That's good. Well, as I
1:06:19
said, I feel, uh, like I could chat with
1:06:22
you for a couple more hours, and probably
1:06:25
our listeners would love to hear more from you as well.
1:06:28
So where can people go to find out more about
1:06:31
you?
1:06:31
>> Rob: Yeah, I think you would just go to our website,
1:06:32
trinitystreetsville.org, or to our
1:06:35
YouTube channel, uh, which is, uh, you
1:06:38
just search for Trinity streetsville there. I did
1:06:41
mention that I just completed a
1:06:44
thesis, uh, on some of the stuff we talked about today. We
1:06:47
did reference some of it, and so you. If you google,
1:06:50
uh, the leadership development road trip,
1:06:53
I think it'll come up. Um, it's
1:06:55
probably a, uh, long read in the Tyndale
1:06:58
repository of theses, but, uh,
1:07:01
that would be, uh, a place to find out more.
1:07:05
Okay.
1:07:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: M well, thank you so much for our conversation
1:07:08
today, Rob. We always end our
1:07:11
podcast with a word of peace. So may God's
1:07:14
peace be with you.
1:07:15
>> Rob: And also with you.
1:07:18
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
1:07:21
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
1:07:23
visit future dash christian.com.
1:07:26
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arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
1:07:47
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
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provided by Paul Romig-Leavitt. Thanks
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and go in peace.