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The 3 Levels of Toxic Bosses (Most People Miss Level 2) · Unspoken Career Truths

0:00
Welcome to Unspoken career Truths.
0:02
I'm Lauren Levec Gilbert. And I'm Cara Wood.
0:05
And we're here to be the coworkers you can trust.
0:12
Hello everyone, we are going to talk today about something that
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unfortunately I think pretty much everyone knows what this
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looks like. Toxic leadership.
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I know to end our month of leadership, we couldn't ignore
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it and really wanted to talk about all the ways to identify
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all the aspects, all the impacts that toxic leadership can have.
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And then most importantly, how do you avoid it?
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How do you call it out clearly when it shows up?
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And how do you not just survive it, but survive beyond it?
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And if you haven't been through it, you've had friends that are
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dealing with it. And now hopefully this episode
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helps you give good advice to them too.
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But to start us off with something fun, I wanted to ask
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you, Lauren, do you have a favorite fictional bad boss?
1:01
Because those are kind of fun to watch.
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That's a good one. I think the first one that comes
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to mind is from The Devil Wears Prada, and I feel like it's
1:09
timely because the second one's coming out.
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But Miranda Priestly, who's the absolute worst to Anne Hathaway
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in her job with just like their requests and the attitude and
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the hours and how she treats her.
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Talk about toxic. Yeah, she picks apart her outfit
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right on that opening day. Not just belittling what she's
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able to do because Annie's sort of new to the industry, but also
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belittling just style choices. Yeah.
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She threw plates at her, made her do crazy things like mind
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games to test her, all kinds of crazy, crazy stuff.
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So I think Miranda would be the first one.
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And then I'm a big Suits fan so I watched every season of Suits
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and I think Lewis was a bad boss that turned into a good boss.
1:59
He was a very toxic, selfish, controlling, very mean boss who
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like screamed at his employees. And I'm glad you brought up
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selfish because I think one of the things I think of from him
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was like wanting the credit all the time and being so political
2:16
in the office. And so if you were reporting to
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him, imagining him using you for his political gains, which he
2:22
does to comedic effect on Suits, but is not something that's fun
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to live through. Now he's very manipulative, and
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I think that's a huge toxic leadership trait, manipulating
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people to get what you want. Nobody likes that, nobody wants
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that. That's not the right way to
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approach things. Yeah, well, like you, I have two
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as well. I can't not say Michael Scott
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from the American version of The Office.
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He's so needy for attention from his coworkers, always saying
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awkward things and not really reading the room.
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His emotional IQ is bad, which I think is another thing that
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doesn't always mean. They're definitely a toxic boss
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but can lead to toxicity. You can imagine nobody is
3:02
excited to go to Dunder Mifflin on a Sunday afternoon.
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He'd be stressed out. What is he going to throw at us?
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He so wants to be liked that. He'll lie, he'll cover up things
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and that would derail your career progression if someone
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was really doing that to you. The other one, if folks have
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seen the medical drama House, Doctor Gregory House also
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manipulates everyone and lies. And he actually often has his
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direct reports break the law. Like he'll have them break into
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patients homes to collect evidence.
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The level of toxic there is like leave run, go.
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At one point he has people pitted against one another and
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gives them racing numbers and he only calls them by their
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numbers. He just devalues them so poorly
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that they don't even have names. I think that the thing about him
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too is he doesn't take any accountability for it.
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He's just like, this is who I am, this is my personality,
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which I think is another like really big toxic trait.
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You need to take accountability for your actions.
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You're right. I mean, he's got a substance
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abuse problem, right? So that would be like in a giant
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red flag right away to people that Yep, this is I am cranky
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because I'm in pain and on paid meds and I'm so good at my job
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that it doesn't matter. Which, again, delightful to
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watch on television and only there.
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The drama. But it's happening in real life.
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Lauren, I love this past and it really is happening.
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There is a prevalence of toxic leadership.
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So if you're in a situation, you are not alone.
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Unfortunately, according to the Harris Poll, one in three people
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say that they have a toxic boss. And I thought this was
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interesting. 53% say that they have nightmares about that toxic
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boss. That's awful.
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That makes me really sad. And I think it just shows you
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that it really does follow you home.
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You spend most of your life at work, right?
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It's the majority of your time. And it's what you think, but I
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don't know about you, but I do sometimes dream about
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spreadsheets where I'm just filling.
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Out all the time or I wake up in the middle of the night.
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Oh my God I did this the other night.
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I literally woke up in the middle of the night.
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I was like I forgot to respond to that e-mail a week ago.
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I swear to God that happened to me.
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I am so sorry. So we all have work dreams.
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If you're if you're dreaming about your toxic boss, that is
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terrible. I've never had a dream about a
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boss but never say never. And 2/3 of people with a toxic
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boss are actively job hunting. So it's not doesn't pay to be a
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toxic boss. Overtime, toxic bosses impact
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individual sense of self. It leads to burnout, increases
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chronic stress to values like teamwork.
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It's really we think back to Lewis, your example of Lewis on
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Suits. His team was never running
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efficiently. Yeah, it just you don't want to
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come to work if you don't feel safe.
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There's consequences to having a toxic environment.
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Yeah, there are some real classic signs.
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Unpredictability, extreme emotions, lack of emotional
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intelligence, insensitive. So someone who's just rude,
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bullying and using coercion, threats and other negative
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managerial tactics. So thinking about someone who's
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leading with the punishment is a sign of a toxic boss.
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Lack of emotional intelligence is a big flag for me.
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You can pretty much tell when you're talking to someone if
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they lack that awareness or not. And I think that's a really
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important one to look out for because if you have emotional
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intelligence, then you can understand and perceive the
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emotions of the other people on your team and take them into
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account. I have seen people change and
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adapt and learn to be more emotionally intelligent, but
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takes a lot of time and they have to want to do it.
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This is exactly what we want to talk about.
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What are some of those red flags that you can see?
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For me, I like to look at what people think motivates, what
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they are motivated by and what they use to motivate other
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people. And so if they're motivated by
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their own vanity, if they're a bit of a narcissist, if they're
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not looking at what the whole team is doing to me is sometimes
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a red flag. And then another on the other
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side of that. If they think that fear
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motivates others or they use fear to motivate others, that is
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a giant red flag. Someone who thinks I'm just
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going to scare you or I'm going to use my authority to impose
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something on you that is a no go for me.
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Another one for me is taking credit and when they didn't do
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anything, it's a really big tell of someone if they take credit
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for your work, they don't mention you, they just kind of
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steamroll you. I absolutely hate that because
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you're taking away from the work that your team did.
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It's a collective effort and I think that shows selfishness in
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leadership, which can lead to a toxic environment.
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And it actually speaks really to what the power of this toxic
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environment is. It's not just that you had a bad
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day with the boss or you had one bad exchange.
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It's that there's a repeated behavior that everyone else on
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the team then comes to expect. And so if they're not sharing
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credit or they're not giving people credit for their work and
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they're always taking it, that's going to change the way you
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behave around that person. It's going to change your trust
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in them, and it's going to change how you report out what
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you've done because you now don't want credit stolen.
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All of these things that already would impact you on an
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individual level, then suddenly the team starts to behave around
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it. When we talk about toxic
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leadership, that's the real thing is now the whole culture
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is saturated with this gunk that someone has brought.
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We're going to talk about the levels of toxicity.
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So it starts level 1, poor communication, weak trust,
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someone who's overly critical. Every time you're with them,
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you're having more negative reaction interactions and
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positive ones. Then we get to, and we talked
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about this a lot with our fictional bosses, controlling,
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manipulation, bullying, and that they don't take accountability.
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That's a moderate toxic boss. That is someone who is going to
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really impact the workplace. And then there is the, I think
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Doctor House falls into this category, actively dishonest.
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They're lying, they're abusive, they're coercive in personal
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relationships, they're violent. Or maybe your boss is throwing
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like violent tantrums, or they're doing things that are
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actually legal or they're asking you to do things that are
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illegal. Do not give this person any
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time. Get out of there as soon as you
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can. I like that spectrum because
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it's helpful to see where people are, but I also think like for
9:13
example, the taking credit piece, I like to give people the
9:16
benefit of the doubt the first time.
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So say they did something like that, OK, great.
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Have a conversation with them. If they continue to repeatedly
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do it, to your point car, it's a repeated behavior.
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If you don't give the feedback, then it's kind of hard to see a
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change behavior because they might not know.
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But just as long as it's safe and it's not on the very, very
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far right of that spectrum, have a conversation about it and tell
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them how you feel and see if the behavior changes.
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I think level 1 is definitely a coachable.
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You could coach someone out of that that is low EQ.
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That is, you don't have good chemistry.
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That is, this person has had no leadership training and is a bad
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communicator. It could also be that person is
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a nasty person, but hopefully it's not.
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Hopefully it's all those other things that are trainable.
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Some of the other stuff. If your boss is asking you to do
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something illegal, if your boss is saying.
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Not give them the benefit of the.
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Doubt. You're not giving them the
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benefit of the doubt. That is a leave a situation.
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So I would I say to you that level 1, feel free to give
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people the benefit out. I think level 2, you've got to
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have your own boundaries. And also what kind of bullying
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is it? Is it racist or sexist bullying?
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That's a no go for me. You know, is it like a
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personality or they think it's a joke and you kind of need to
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show them. I don't find those things funny
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and it's trainable. Maybe that's why I bring up the
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levels because I think often times when you are in a toxic
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situation, you're also sort of trying to gut check like how bad
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is this? Am I crazy?
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Is. It just me.
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And it can feel very isolating because if this person is
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abusive or bullying or manipulating you, then you
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already feel pretty alone. I learned this phrase
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organizational dehumanization. And so this is just this idea of
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when a worker feels like they don't have personal
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subjectivity, they are treated like a tool of an organization
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instead of like a person. And so you can again, think
11:09
about those bosses that are like, you are mine to tell what
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to do. I don't care what you think
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back. That is a sign of a toxic
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situation. If a company is allowing a
11:20
manager to act that way, then everyone who's working there is
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going to feel like a cog in a wheel instead of like a human.
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And we've been talking a lot about humans because humans are
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pretty powerful. You want to work with someone
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who's treating you like a human? Yes, 100%.
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And I think that's why also when you're interviewing for a job,
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if you can try to meet people who are at your level or below
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or on different teams, because obviously you can't always get a
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sense of these things, but you can try to get a sense of them
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and try to ask questions about culture and how decisions are
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made and like how people think about people.
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And I think it's important to ask those questions because to
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your point, Cara, if an organization is allowing
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behavior like that, it most likely is happening in other
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places too. Yeah.
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Well, and I'm curious, you talked about people that you
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don't want to work for and like red flags there.
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Do you have any when you show up for an interview like red flags
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or things that you're like looking out for to try to access
12:19
the culture of a place to make sure it's not toxic?
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I mean, the first thing is, do they talk more and ask you
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questions less? Do they just share more about
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themselves and don't really ask you questions and just talk
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about what they've done? I think that's a big one for me.
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When you used to be in person for interviews, it was actually
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a lot easier because you could walk into the office, you could
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feel the vibe. When you're on Zoom asking
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questions about culture, do they just kind of brush them off or
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like, I love it here and everything's rosy and rainbows
12:50
without any specific examples? You can try it and kind of cut
12:53
through that. Yeah, I always listen for how
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they talk about other people on their team, too.
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If they're referring to people by their titles and not their
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names, that is one for me. That is, Yeah, like a huge red
13:07
flag where I'm like, these people are people.
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All right, Well, my last question, have you ever had a
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boss or have you seen bosses who turn toxic?
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Are there some when things shift?
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I think the biggest switch I've seen is when their heads like on
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the chopping block, so like when the project didn't go well or
13:27
the business isn't doing well and they're under high stress.
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I think you really see people's true colors when they're under
13:32
high stress and it just becomes like a dictatorship.
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I don't care what time of the day you're working or how much
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you're working. Like we need to get this done
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because my job is on the line. So like you better perform.
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So I have seen in those like high stress environments where
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it can really turn and it's a bit unexpected.
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Yeah, that is so true. And I think it's funny you
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brought that one up because the first example I had in my mind
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was when someone takes on a new role, so the opposite, where
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they're doing well and they just got promoted into something, but
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now they've got a bigger thing on their plate or they've got
14:02
more attention, they've got a little bit more accolades.
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I've seen that go to people's heads or overwhelm them in a way
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that they now think they need to shift how they treat everyone
14:13
else below them in a way that then can turn kind of toxic.
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Yeah, that's a good one as well, because they want to prove that
14:21
they earned this job. So there's a lot of pressure.
14:23
So again, it's pressure, Pressure and stress.
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Like when you're in a pressure cooker.
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Woo, woo. Do you see the true colors of
14:30
people? Yeah, cuz the other, the other
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time, I think people will see this is when you got new
14:36
leadership that's high above everyone.
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And I've actually also seen this where people sort of scramble to
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impress like a new boss and they and that can get competitive,
14:45
contentious, and it can change the way people treat each other.
14:49
All right, So what do you do about it, identifying it?
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We already talked about all these different ways now
14:54
reporting it. So when it's happening to you,
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first of all, it's isolating. So find your sources of support,
15:00
whether that's HR, whether that's other people on your
15:03
team, whether that's your network around you that can say
15:06
back to you, you're not crazy. These things are unacceptable.
15:10
And then articulate what is actually under threat because
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toxic environments impact business outcomes and they also
15:18
impact your own personal welfare and they impact your career
15:23
trajectory. They can impact your income.
15:25
So really think about all of the things that this person is
15:29
putting under threat by acting in this way.
15:32
Gather your facts. And this probably includes
15:35
documentation. It at least includes you making
15:37
notes for yourself so that you can fight back.
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This happened at this time. Then the last piece of this is
15:44
to just state what you need and what you want to change.
15:48
I like that you made the connection between like business
15:50
impact because a lot of people might talk about or think about
15:54
toxic leadership, but they're not connecting it to the fact
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that that's bad for business. It's a bad culture, it's a bad
16:01
environment. There is like an outcome that
16:04
comes out of this. And then I also really like the
16:06
documentation part. So as things are happening, no
16:10
matter if it's a toxic moment or an uncomfortable moment or even
16:14
it can also be a positive thing. Documentation is so important.
16:17
Like when did it happen? Who said it, what time?
16:20
Because it's easy in the moment to write it down, but it's
16:23
really hard to remember if it was a long time ago or what the
16:27
scenario was. And have that in your personal
16:30
phone or your personal device. Don't put it on your work
16:32
computer. Have that you own and is your
16:36
IP. That makes sense.
16:37
That is a good call for sure to keep it somewhere that you have
16:42
control over, right? And let's be honest, there are
16:46
times when reporting it is there's a really clear cut way
16:49
to do that. And then there are other times
16:51
when we call the stage, like surviving it.
16:53
We think back to all of our fictional examples where the
16:56
folks at Dunder Mifflin are just kind of there.
16:58
They're just trying to get through.
17:00
They're not leaving their jobs, they're stuck in this place.
17:03
Andy is dealing with Miranda in Devil Wears Prada because she's
17:07
her first magazine job ever. It's this huge opportunity for
17:10
her, and Emily Blunt's character has really been sticking it out
17:14
and that. So how do you survive it?
17:16
I can't. I can.
17:17
I will never forget that I would die if I just ate a cube of
17:20
cheese each day. Yeah.
17:24
So how do you survive it? Probably not dieting.
17:27
I think it's actually like setting their boundaries,
17:29
Lauren, you're one of your boundaries Would be like, I need
17:31
to eat my lunch. I don't care what you say.
17:33
And I need snacks. Hangry's a real thing for me.
17:38
So yeah, surviving, setting real boundaries.
17:41
We already talked about documenting everything that you
17:43
can because now if you've decided there's some kind of
17:46
thing that you're staying for or you're coaching things out, or
17:50
maybe you've reported it and now you're sort of in the midst or
17:53
waiting it out, working with HR. But there's a limbo factor.
17:57
And then keep building your support network of allies and HR
18:02
because this is something that could be incredibly isolating
18:05
and is likely, if you're on a team and everyone's affected by
18:08
it, affecting more than you. And there's a weird fine line
18:11
between gossip and supporting one another through difficult
18:14
times. That was exactly what I was
18:17
going to bring up. I think it's important to find
18:18
your people, but know what's appropriate to share and not to
18:20
share, right? Like especially if it's an HR
18:23
issue, you have to be really careful.
18:24
What are you telling people? What are you talking about?
18:27
Can you trust these people? You just have to use your
18:29
judgement. I also think it's important to
18:31
have support system outside of work, right?
18:33
If you just have your friends outside of work or your partner
18:36
that you can talk to and share those things and feel OK and
18:39
feel safe to talk about them, that's really important as well.
18:43
Yeah, if you think back to what I talked about, about
18:46
organization, feeling like you're this cognitive wheel,
18:48
organizational dehumanization, having just a life outside of
18:53
work can really help buffer you against a toxic workplace.
18:56
If you're like, all right, I'm in this toxic workplace, but now
18:59
I'm going to set my boundaries. These are my at working hours.
19:02
I'm going to get out and I'm going to do something that
19:04
reminds me I'm a human being, that reminds me that that was
19:07
just a toxic place, you know, detoxing, as it were.
19:10
Have a detox ritual after work. At the end of the day, you're
19:13
number at any company you work for, so it's really important to
19:16
have purpose outside of work. So finally getting beyond it and
19:23
I wanted to add this as a stage because I think a lot of times
19:26
it's like, well, now you're out of the toxic workplace.
19:28
So problems are all solved. And actually you end up going
19:33
exactly. You end up landing somewhere and
19:35
you've taken some of that toxic baggage.
19:38
A little bit like toxic leadership has lasting effects.
19:41
It spreads distrust, and it brings a lot of diminished sense
19:44
of self. So what should you do for
19:47
yourself after you're out of this toxic situation?
19:51
Well, I mean, I think about it as also like getting out of a
19:53
bad relationship or something. You have a sense of habits that
19:58
you've fallen into. So I think it's important to
20:00
self reflect and say, is my reaction to this scenario
20:04
because I was in a toxic environment?
20:06
Is this how I should be reacting to things?
20:08
What is that trigger? So whatever is comfortable for
20:11
you, whether you are in therapy and you can talk about it there
20:13
or you can journal about it or talk to a friend to reflect on
20:16
what's making you feel triggered, what's making you
20:18
feel uncomfortable and analyzing.
20:21
Is it the situation or is it just my past experience that I
20:25
am applying to that situation? I really like that every time I
20:30
move jobs, toxic or otherwise, I often write down what I want in
20:34
the new job that will change and what I want to keep.
20:38
And that's a really good way to think about what's the new
20:41
things I'm seeking a new role, but that can really help when
20:44
you've been in a role that you're like, I got to get rid of
20:46
a bunch of this stuff. I.
20:47
Love that. I actually I'm thinking of an
20:49
experience when I change jobs where I was.
20:52
I really wanted to set clearer boundaries and I didn't have a
20:55
lot of boundaries in my last job.
20:56
So I was like listen, don't go full 150% first day, observe and
21:01
listen and don't keep working until 8:00.
21:04
I set that principle in the beginning and stuck to it.
21:07
Yeah. And I think another way to
21:09
reflect about a toxic experience could actually be, let's call it
21:13
empathy for the devil. Most toxic bosses have deep
21:17
insecurities. They have not gotten enough
21:19
leadership training. Now, in the moment, it is not
21:22
your job to fix them. It is not your job to worry
21:24
about what their problem is. They shouldn't be treating you
21:25
this way. But once you're free of it, it
21:28
can actually be helpful to reflect back and be like, OK,
21:31
yeah, that person had this major insecurity, and that's not on
21:34
me. But I can see that now, which I
21:36
think is another way to sort of process.
21:39
I think the number one thing always when it comes to poor
21:43
leadership or having difficulty working with certain people at
21:46
work is insecurity. It is a huge issue for all of
21:51
us. We all have them like it is
21:52
very, very natural, but they come out in so many different
21:57
ways, especially at work. I totally agree with you.
22:00
It can really help you then recognize, oh what am I reacting
22:03
to? What are they reacting to?
22:05
We talked about it. Level 1 is just poor
22:07
communication. It could literally be that
22:09
you're both reacting to the same sense of pressures and the same
22:13
source of insecurities in just ways that are toxic once you
22:17
combine them. So that's a wrap on toxic
22:19
bosses. We are flushing them away.
22:24
Goodbye. I hope that everyone listening
22:27
doesn't have these in your life, but if you do or if you know
22:30
someone who does, share this episode.
22:32
Takeaways. Toxic managers are common and
22:35
recognize and plan if you've got a level one or two, and if
22:38
you've got that Level 3, just get out of the situation.
22:40
Don't do illegal things. Step 2.
22:43
Gather your allies. Be a good ally to others.
22:46
Find other outlets. Surround yourself.
22:49
We've got episodes on networking to talk about how to make those
22:52
new friends. Mind your people.
22:54
Yeah. And then back to your insecurity
22:56
thing, Lauren. I mean, know that it's honestly
22:58
it's about them and not you. And do everything you can to
23:01
maintain your sense of self worth and protect it while you
23:05
improve the situation for yourself.
23:07
I'm a plus one to that one. Focus on you.
23:10
Do what you need to. Do, and if it's happening, let
23:13
us know. We want to hear about it.
23:14
Yeah, tell us your story. Do you have a Miranda?
23:17
And that's a wrap. Thanks for joining us on
23:19
Unspoken Career Truths. Don't forget to follow us on
23:22
Spotify and Instagram. And if you like this episode,
23:25
share it with a friend.