Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #493 Triggered by Gun Play

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#493 Triggered by Gun Play · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, if you don't play with guns and you're a kid,
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  Speaker 2: chances are you are going to play with swords or
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  Speaker 2: with clubs. Kids pick up a stick and they start
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  Speaker 2: shooting people with the stick.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 2: Gooday, this is doctor Justin Colslam here with my wife
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  Speaker 2: and podcast partner and life partner, Kylie and mum to
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  Speaker 2: our six kids. I'm the founder of Happy Families dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Do you Yesterday we commemorated and remembered ANZAC Day and
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  Speaker 2: those who have fought and those who serve to keep
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  Speaker 2: our world and especially our country safe. It was a
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  Speaker 2: wonderful weekend. I hope that you had a good weekend
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  Speaker 2: enjoying your Anzac freedoms. We received a Facebook message, Kylie
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  Speaker 2: that I think is a really interesting one as a
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  Speaker 2: follow up to ANZAC data relates to guns and war play,
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  Speaker 2: gunplay our children. Let me read the question to you.
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  Speaker 2: It comes from Petra. She asks have you done a
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  Speaker 2: podcast or do you have any information about gun and
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  Speaker 2: weapon play. I'm an early childhood educator. I've had lots
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  Speaker 2: of discussions with colleagues around this sort of play. Despite
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  Speaker 2: trying redirections or play idea suggestions, it seems to always
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  Speaker 2: resurface shortly after. What does the research show? What's the
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  Speaker 2: general consensus in child psychology? Is gun play detrimental or
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  Speaker 2: a normal part of imagination and development? And I thought,
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  Speaker 2: what a great question to ask after we've just spent
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  Speaker 2: the last weekend remembering war and the tragedy that it is,
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  Speaker 2: and the way guns affect our lives in so many
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  Speaker 2: harmful ways.
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  Speaker 3: It never ceases to amaze me that, even after I
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  Speaker 3: guess the enlightenment that we find ourselves in today's day
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  Speaker 3: and age, that our children, regardless of how they're brought up,
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  Speaker 3: are so driven by stereotypes. You know, boys, regardless of
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  Speaker 3: what they see, often are just drawn to trucks and
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  Speaker 3: guns and karate and all of those things. I find
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  Speaker 3: it fascinating.
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  Speaker 2: What I also find really interesting, along the lines of
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  Speaker 2: the enlightenment concept that you mentioned, we know some people
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  Speaker 2: who won't even let their children say the word gun.
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  Speaker 2: Their kids wanted a NERF gun for their birthdays, and
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  Speaker 2: the parents were they were a gaess they're like, no,
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  Speaker 2: there is no such thing. We do not have guns.
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  Speaker 2: It would be a better if they didn't exist in
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  Speaker 2: the entire world. In Australia, since nineteen ninety six, with
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  Speaker 2: the gun buyback and John Howard's decision to reduce access
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  Speaker 2: to guns in this country in particular, we've got a
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  Speaker 2: pretty good track record when it comes to minimizing gun violence.
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  Speaker 2: When it still happens. There are still guns. There are people,
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  Speaker 2: bad people who have guns. They tend to usually only
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  Speaker 2: go after other bad people with guns. Fortunately, but we
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  Speaker 2: certainly we're not going to get away from the reality
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  Speaker 2: that there are guns in society, and there are guns
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  Speaker 2: in movies. I came across some research while I was
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  Speaker 2: thinking about what we would talk about today. Children, according
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  Speaker 2: to some research, who view movies with gun violence more
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  Speaker 2: interested in guns and violence than their peers who do
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  Speaker 2: not have this exposure. So a recent experiment one hundred
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  Speaker 2: and four kids their age between eight and twelve. They're
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  Speaker 2: in pairs. One child in each pair watches a twenty
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  Speaker 2: minute clip of a PG rated film that has guns.
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  Speaker 2: The other sees the same film, but the scenes with
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  Speaker 2: guns are edited out, and after they watched after they
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  Speaker 2: watched the film. The kids went to a room. There
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  Speaker 2: was a cabinet stocked with toys like there was legos,
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  Speaker 2: nerf guns, games where they could play pretty much anything
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  Speaker 2: they wanted, and one of the cabinet draws had a
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  Speaker 2: real semi automatic nine milimeter handgun that had been modified
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  Speaker 2: so that it couldn't fire because it was America. It's
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  Speaker 2: not Australia. I know some people are having heart failure
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  Speaker 2: right out. There was a gun in the room. It
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  Speaker 2: was modified, it couldn't fire, but the kids could still
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  Speaker 2: pull the trigger, and the gun had a censor. It
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  Speaker 2: would count the number of times that the child pulled
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  Speaker 2: the trigger. After twenty minutes of play in the room
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  Speaker 2: without adult supervision and with the door closed, the fifty
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  Speaker 2: two pairs of kids. Forty three pairs found the gun.
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  Speaker 2: Fourteen pairs gave the gun to the research assistant and said,
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  Speaker 2: look what I found. But in twenty two pairs, one
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  Speaker 2: or both of the participants handled the gun. And compared
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  Speaker 2: with those who saw the movie where the images of
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  Speaker 2: guns were edited out, the kids who saw the gun
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  Speaker 2: in the movie, they played with the real gun significantly
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  Speaker 2: longer fifty three seconds versus eleven seconds, and those who
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  Speaker 2: were exposed to the guns in the movie also pulled
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  Speaker 2: the trigger more often nearly three times versus zero times
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  Speaker 2: for the kids who didn't. And and by the way,
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  Speaker 2: there was a gender difference. Boys pulled the trigger, no surprise,
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  Speaker 2: more frequently than girls. There we go, so like, our
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  Speaker 2: kids are going to see guns, they're going to be
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  Speaker 2: exposed to the concept of guns. We had antact a
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  Speaker 2: yesterday where there were gun salutes and imagery with gun
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  Speaker 2: I mean, we know that this is a part of life.
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  Speaker 2: And when you have families who are saying, we don't
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  Speaker 2: even use the word, and you look at Petra's conversation
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  Speaker 2: her question, I think that it's an interesting place for
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  Speaker 2: us to discuss and spend some time working out the
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  Speaker 2: best way forward for parents.
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  Speaker 3: I've got a bunch of questions to ask you about this,
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  Speaker 3: because this research is pretty interesting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah it is.
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  Speaker 3: Is gunplay actually related to violence?
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  Speaker 2: There is a little bit of research that says that
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  Speaker 2: it is, but it's not particularly strong research, and we've
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  Speaker 2: got scant evidence across the board when it comes to
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  Speaker 2: kids and playing with guns. So let me preface this
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  Speaker 2: by saying I'm not an advocate of guns or gunplay.
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  Speaker 2: We don't have guns in our home. We had a
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  Speaker 2: couple of NERF guns over the years, but we're not
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  Speaker 2: gunplay people, and our kids aren't gun play kids. Mind you.
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  Speaker 2: We've got six girls.
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  Speaker 3: A couple of weekends ago, we actually walked through a
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  Speaker 3: house that we were thinking we might buy, and I
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  Speaker 3: opened up the storage cupboard underneath the staircase. You'd already made.
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  Speaker 3: You made it halfway up the stairs, and I said,
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  Speaker 3: come back and look at it. You have to come back
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  Speaker 3: and look at this. Inside that cupboard wall to all
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  Speaker 3: NERF guns. There was every size possible.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I reckon there was thirty NERF guns in there,
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  Speaker 2: apparently more. We have three boys, if I remember correctly,
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  Speaker 2: through and I was like, I'm buying it just for that.
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  Speaker 2: We're not having NERF gun wars in our family and
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  Speaker 2: in our home. But what the research seems to suggest
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  Speaker 2: is that playing with guns if you're a child doesn't
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  Speaker 2: necessarily predict anything in terms of violence. It does predict
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  Speaker 2: interest in firearms, as we've seen from that previous study,
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  Speaker 2: but the little bit of evidence suggests that it does
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  Speaker 2: a lot. More evidence, although there's still not much of it,
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  Speaker 2: suggests that it doesn't. And the other thing is if
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  Speaker 2: you don't play with guns and you're a kid, chances
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  Speaker 2: are you are going to play with swords, or with clubs,
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  Speaker 2: or with knives or with something else like kids sticks sticks. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I mean the kids pick up a stick and they
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  Speaker 2: start shooting people with the stick. They get more.
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  Speaker 3: What about a cyber what do you call those things?
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  Speaker 2: A cyber What did you call it?
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  Speaker 3: Cyber thing?
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  Speaker 2: What is cer thing? Like a laser gun?
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  Speaker 3: Y l what is it?
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  Speaker 2: People can't see what you're doing with your hand right now?
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  Speaker 2: Clothes got her two fingers extended in.
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  Speaker 3: The Star Wars thing? What is it?
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  Speaker 2: A light saber?
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  Speaker 3: A lightsaber?
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  Speaker 2: So children will do that. I know of one parent
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  Speaker 2: who told me that their their son, because he wasn't
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  Speaker 2: allowed to play with guns, he chewed his sandwich into
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  Speaker 2: the shape of a gun so that you can run
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  Speaker 2: around holding his sound. And I mean I remember one time,
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  Speaker 2: lamp that one I was driving down the freeway with
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  Speaker 2: a couple of kids in the car. We were doing
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  Speaker 2: a church activity, and I had some of the boys
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  Speaker 2: in the car and there's this kid sitting in the
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  Speaker 2: back seat behind me, and as the cars would go
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  Speaker 2: past on the other side of the road. No, he
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  Speaker 2: was shooting through the gaps like jew and then a
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  Speaker 2: j and then a car would go past in his
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  Speaker 2: paws and then and then so we'd see how many
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  Speaker 2: shootoo shoes he could do in between just with his
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  Speaker 2: fingers like this is and we've got first person shooter
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  Speaker 2: games like kids are going to play. You can ban
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  Speaker 2: fortnight or you like, but the kids are gonna figure
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  Speaker 2: out a way to play it at their friend's house
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  Speaker 2: because they want to be playing it because everyone else
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  Speaker 2: is doing it. What we're going to do in just
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  Speaker 2: a sec is come back after the break and talk
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  Speaker 2: about whether or not playing with guns predicts aggression in
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  Speaker 2: children as opposed to actual violence, like do they become
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  Speaker 2: more aggressive? And we're also going to talk about well
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  Speaker 2: a handful of other things that I think any parent
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  Speaker 2: who has children who play with guns or doesn't want
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  Speaker 2: them to play with guns, is going to want to hear.
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  Speaker 2: Just when you think you've got this parenting gig nailed,
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  Speaker 2: your child hits some new milestone that leaves you figuratively
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: banging your head against the wall. You wonder, where's the
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: instruction manual your growth guide? Is that instruction manual? A
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: webinar outlining basic milestones so you know where your child's at,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: where they're going, and what you can expect. Get insights,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: reassurance and support from your growth Guide available online at
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: happy families dot com dot au.
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: It's the Happy Famili's podcast, The podcast with a time
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  Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers. Now I'm interested. Does
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  Speaker 3: gun play remote anti social behavior?
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  Speaker 2: There's no evidence that it does. What it promotes is
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  Speaker 2: fantasy and role play. We know that there's a big
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  Speaker 2: social learning component, but no antisocial behavior, aggression, that kind
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  Speaker 2: of thing. If it does, what research would suggest is
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  Speaker 2: that there are other things that predict that anti social behavior,
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  Speaker 2: that aggressive behavior, that violent behavior, far more so family environment, media,
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  Speaker 2: consumed corporal punishment. There's a whole range of other factors
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  Speaker 2: that are going to predict much more than whether your
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  Speaker 2: kids play with guns, whether they'll be aggressive or violent,
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  Speaker 2: whether they're going to have interest in firearms and that
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  Speaker 2: kind of thing, whether you let your kids play with
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  Speaker 2: a nerf gun or not. Almost as zero like we really,
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  Speaker 2: it's so so negligible. Based on what I can read
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  Speaker 2: in the research that if your kids want to play
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  Speaker 2: with a water pistol or a bubble gun, or a
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  Speaker 2: nerf gun let them. That's the short version of this.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so parents actually banned them or in this case,
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  Speaker 3: you've got schools and childcare centers that are actually banning
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  Speaker 3: the play of gun does Is there any negative impacts
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  Speaker 3: to that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: And I think we need to acknowledge why this is happening.
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  Speaker 2: So it's pretty horrible when you see your children pretending
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  Speaker 2: to shoot each other and hearing them say I killed you.
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  Speaker 2: You're dead like that. As a parent, now that we
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  Speaker 2: understand mortality in ways that we didn't when we were
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  Speaker 2: four or six or twelve, it's jarring and it's painful,
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  Speaker 2: like it just feels horrible. I think that well, two things.
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  Speaker 2: First of all, if you've banned them and you think
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  Speaker 2: you've been successful, chances are you're just not turning around
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  Speaker 2: fast enough to catch them because they're doing it. But
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  Speaker 2: what you're going to find is if you ban it,
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  Speaker 2: what you're probably going to do is your children will
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  Speaker 2: become deceitful. They'll hide it. Don't you ever let me
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  Speaker 2: catch you playing with guns. Don't worry, mum, you won't.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to be real sneaky from now on. That
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  Speaker 2: kind of thing. You're going to induce shame. Your children
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  Speaker 2: will feel really shameful for doing something that I'm not
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  Speaker 2: going to say. It almost comes naturally, but they want
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  Speaker 2: to do it, their friends are doing it, They've seen
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  Speaker 2: it in the movies. It's a fun game. They really
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  Speaker 2: don't understand death in the same way that we do,
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  Speaker 2: and they don't understand war in the same way that
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  Speaker 2: we do, and we can't expect them to, so it
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  Speaker 2: might be unfair. And gunplays really about it's symbolic, right,
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  Speaker 2: if I've got the gun, we can learn lessons about
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  Speaker 2: control and power, we can learn lessons about authority, And
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  Speaker 2: so I think that gunplay could instead, instead of having
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  Speaker 2: it shamed and pushed away, we could use it to
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  Speaker 2: have really interesting conversations with our kids about empathy and consideration.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting you say that. As you were talking,
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  Speaker 3: I was just thinking about all of the kinds of
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  Speaker 3: conversations that open up as we talk to them about
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  Speaker 3: how they felt when they shot their friend, and how
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  Speaker 3: their friend felt when they were now no longer part
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  Speaker 3: of the game because they were dead. And you know,
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  Speaker 3: all of those kinds of conversations that you actually miss
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  Speaker 3: out on having because you don't want you don't want
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  Speaker 3: to go there at all.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I also think that banning guns, of banning gun play,
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  Speaker 2: I should say, whether it's with sticks or with the
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  Speaker 2: nerf gun or whatever, it's sexist, like it unfairly disadvantages
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  Speaker 2: boys because boys are the ones who are significantly more
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  Speaker 2: likely to want to play guns and experiment and explore
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  Speaker 2: and role play and have fun with that kind of play.
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  Speaker 2: Some people might think that I'm going too far with
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: this one, but I think that girls are less likely
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  Speaker 2: to involve themselves in this kind of imaginary play. The
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  Speaker 2: research shows. As stereotypical as this is, the research shows
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  Speaker 2: the girl's much more likely to play with dolls and
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  Speaker 2: the dolls don't shoot each other.
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  Speaker 3: No, but I remember with all of our kids, one
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  Speaker 3: of our favorite little I guess quirks and play time,
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  Speaker 3: you know, was they'd give you the look and one
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  Speaker 3: will die. Yes, that's right, and then mum would need
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: a kiss of life yep, and I'd be brought back
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  Speaker 3: to life like they There is so much about that
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  Speaker 3: cause and effect.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the fantasy element is really big. It's really important.
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  Speaker 3: And while you know we're having this conversation when there
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  Speaker 3: are countries around the world that are literally war torn
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  Speaker 3: at the moment, and you can see how sensitive these
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  Speaker 3: kinds of conversations can be for people who are actually
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  Speaker 3: living this right now. The reality is when you understand
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  Speaker 3: why children play, you understand that it's them making sense
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  Speaker 3: of the world around them. When they see these things,
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  Speaker 3: whether they you know, kind of see them with their
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  Speaker 3: friends watching a movie or playing a video game, their
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  Speaker 3: reenactment of it is helping them make sense of what
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  Speaker 3: is happening, why it's happening, how do I feel about it,
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  Speaker 3: processing the world as they see it, and it's such
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  Speaker 3: a powerful way for them to work through it, and
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  Speaker 3: you being open to having conversations with them as a
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  Speaker 3: result of that is even more powerful.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, beautifully said, let's wrap this up with a couple
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  Speaker 2: of tips for how we can set boundaries around gun play,
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  Speaker 2: because I'm going to argue, as a result of everything
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  Speaker 2: we've talked about today that while most parents probably don't
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  Speaker 2: want to encourage it and aren't thrilled about it, I
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  Speaker 2: know some will be, but many parents aren't, and that
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  Speaker 2: would include us. It's probably going to happen, and shaming
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  Speaker 2: your kids around it and taking away that fantasy may
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  Speaker 2: not be helpful. I think that there's a couple of
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  Speaker 2: a couple of boundaries that we can set. The first
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  Speaker 2: one is that kids need to understand that they're not
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  Speaker 2: allowed to physically hurt each other, even if they're involved
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  Speaker 2: in pretend play. There are safety risks. They're not allowed
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  Speaker 2: to throw the gun at each other, they're not allowed
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  Speaker 2: to hit people with guns. They need they need to
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  Speaker 2: keep it fantasy. That would be the first boundary. The
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  Speaker 2: second one is that somebody could lose an eye here,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: so you're not allowed to shoot people anywhere near their heads.
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  Speaker 2: Always shoot from the shoulders down. We don't want somebody
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: to cop an nerth bullet of one of those phone
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: bullets in the nose or mouth or eyes. It's just
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: not okay to shoot people there. And the third thing
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  Speaker 2: is I think we just want to be mindful that
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  Speaker 2: there are some red flags when it comes to gunplay.
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  Speaker 2: Kids will often say, oh, I accidentally did it. But
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  Speaker 2: if we see a recurring pattern of somebody accidentally and
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  Speaker 2: consistently hurting others, or if we see really aggressive behavior,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: or if we see particularly exploitative or manipulative behavior associated
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  Speaker 2: with that gunplay, if there's a lack of empathy involved
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  Speaker 2: in that gunplay. Then I think that it's worth having
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: a conversation with your child and making sure that we're
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  Speaker 2: teaching them the things that matter most here and that
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  Speaker 2: they're being sensible in what they're doing.
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  Speaker 3: I think the conversation that we're really having is about
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: everybody being a participate and enjoying the process.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: I think back to one of the episodes on Parental
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  Speaker 3: Guidance last year with the water gun fight. It was brilliant.
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  Speaker 3: Everybody was having fun. There was you know, laughter and excitement,
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  Speaker 3: and there was no sense of violence portrayed. And I
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  Speaker 3: think that if as parents sometimes we get so heavy
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  Speaker 3: hearted about things, if we can find ways to channel,
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  Speaker 3: specifically at this point, our boys who have a desire
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  Speaker 3: to have this, you know, kind of this play, and
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: the girls who do Let's have a water fight, Let's
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  Speaker 3: have a nerve gunfight, Let's just have some fun.
• 16:38
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• 16:41
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• 16:44
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