Latest / Dam Parenting / Maternal Menal Health Month - it starts here.

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Maternal Menal Health Month - it starts here. · Dam Parenting

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Welcome back to Down Parenting. This is day eleven of our 12
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days of Christmas. We're almost at the end now and
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you might already be feeling that quiet shift.
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The moment where the year starts to turn and thoughts drift
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towards what comes next. Living abroad.
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It has a way of changing us. It reshapes our relationships
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with our partners, our families back home and even with
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ourselves. And when you add parenting into
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the mix, well, those shifts can feel even more tender.
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And that's why Day 11 holds space for this reality.
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In today's episode, we talk honestly about what it means to
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parent away from familiar support systems and how that
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distance can place pressure on communication, connection, and
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closeness. We explore how to stay
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connected, how to navigate the strain, and how to gently create
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a sense of home wherever you are in the world.
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This conversation with Angela from The Ex Pat Parenting
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Connective is warm, grounding, and deeply relatable to anyone
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raising children far from where they once imagined they would
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be. A moment to pause, to reflect,
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and to remember that home. It's something we can build
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together. Welcome back to Dan Parenting.
1:09
I'm your host, Eva, and I'm so glad you're joining us today.
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Here's an unpopular opinion, and it might sting a little.
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The odds are stacked against us. There are studies that show
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expat and immigrant couples face a higher risk of divorce,
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sometimes as much as a third higher, than couples who stay in
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their home countries, in some groups or under certain
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conditions like intercultural marriages, integration
1:33
challenges or raising kids. Without the strong support
1:36
systems, that risk can climb even higher.
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So while the exact number might vary, the reality remains
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immigrant partnerships are under pressure.
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When you think about it, it makes sense, right?
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I mean, we're parenting without any of our comfort zone, without
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our village, maybe with a partner from another culture
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while living in a third one. So expat life or immigrant life
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is just not for the faint hearted.
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And an expat partnership, that's even harder.
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The challenge though, is that we rarely talk about this.
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And we don't want to stress family back home because you
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know that the first thing that they're going to say is just
2:10
move back. And maybe we don't yet have the
2:12
kind of friendships abroad where we feel safe enough to be this
2:15
vulnerable. So instead, we keep it all
2:17
inside. We soldier on, and the
2:20
relationship struggles stay quietly in the shadows.
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That's why this conversation matters, because none of us are
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failing. None of us are broken.
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It's simply that the odds are stacked high, and it takes
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awareness, values, boundaries, and compassion to beat them.
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Today I'm joined by Angela from the Expat Parenting Collective.
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We'll be talking about the very real challenges expat couples
2:44
face, how to stay united when parenting styles clash, and how
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to avoid the infamous Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
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Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling
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that can quietly unravel even the strongest bonds.
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This isn't meant to be an episode for moms to secretly
3:01
listen to while commuting or folding laundry.
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This is an episode to share with your partner.
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Because parenting is meant to be a partnership, not one person
3:10
carrying it all. So grab a coffee, maybe send
3:13
this episode to your partner right now and lean in with us.
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Because while expat life is challenging, immigrant or expat
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love doesn't actually have to be impossible.
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Angela, welcome back to Down Parenting.
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Thank you. Thank you for having me again.
3:27
So this episode has actually come out of one of your posts
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you posted back in early August. It triggered or it might have
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heightened some people's awareness around themselves,
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their friends, or their community, with many families
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facing unique stressors, cultural adjustments, distance
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from support systems, and raising children in unfamiliar
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environments. From your experience, what are
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the most common difficulties that put these strains on
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marriages and parenting partnerships abroad?
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Yeah, immigrants, economic migrants, expats.
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This life puts a strain on our partnership, and there are some
4:01
challenges. When two people are from
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different cultures, it means that there are two different
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ways at least of doing things. And that can also add cultural
4:10
differences into communication, different ways of parenting.
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And it's even more complicated if these two people are living
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in a third culture. The second would be the loss of
4:20
a support network. We have no community, no
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village, no friends, which equates to no emotional and
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practical support. And that means that they have to
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do everything themselves. So that's a heavy load to carry.
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And sometimes maybe one of the partners are taking the majority
4:36
of that. And then you have identity
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shifts or identity loss. I would say every time we cross
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a border or speak a different language, there is somewhat of a
4:44
shift that happens inside of us and this can be challenged.
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Our identity can be challenged by having children, having to be
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reliant on our partner and for some of us also not being able
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to work. And lastly, I would say that the
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last challenge could be by itself, but it also could be the
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accumulation of all the other challenges, which is the added
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stress and changes that can lead to a breakdown in communication.
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So those are the four major challenges that exist for most
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immigrants, economic migrants and expats due to the life we
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live. That's quite a lot, yes.
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So even when parents share the same long term goals with their
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kids and they often have very different ideas of how to get
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there, how can expat parents identify and honor their core
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values as a couple while still respecting differences in
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parenting styles? It's a great question, and I
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would start by saying that many of us do not actually have a
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conversation about our core values or even the things that
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we value, period. And if you don't do that, then
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there is an implicit alignment or an imagined alignment.
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And I think that in order for us to live an intentional life, a
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life well lived, we need to take out that implicit and make it
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explicit. So that's the first thing.
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And I would also encourage you to do that every year.
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We're always changing. Our values are going to change.
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And it could be based on what's going on in our lives.
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It could be based on the changes that are happening with our
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children, with our careers. So, yeah, talk about your
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values, period. That would be the first thing.
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The second thing it's really important to think or talk
6:16
about, I would say both about how we were parented and how we
6:20
want to parent. Then what that does is it allows
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for us to see our aspirational identity as parents as well as
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who we may default to be in tough times.
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Often that's what we saw when we were children and that is what
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comes up during those difficult times.
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So it's really great to have that conversation with our
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partners and we don't have to parent in the same ways.
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Two people, people from the same culture are not going to parent
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in the same way. Nevertheless, 2 people from
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different cultures. So what we can do is we can help
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ourselves to understand where we are coming from if we talk about
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it. Because once again, these things
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have to be spoken about. They have to be spoken to.
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Implicit doesn't help us when we have the added challenge of
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expat, economic, migrant, immigrant life.
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Life is more challenging. It must be spoken to.
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It's actually funny you say that because I'm from Ireland and in
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Ireland to get married you actually have to do a marriage
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course. So that is kind of what you're
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saying there about the alignment of values and morals and the
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idea of how you're going to raise your children if you're
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choosing to do that. And I've noticed there's a lot
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of parenting communities here who are making people who are
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about to have a kid realise exactly what you spoke to there
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about going back to how you were raised because of those natural,
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as you say, the return to what you know best basically.
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I guess how it is and what comes along with that, I think is also
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the whole repairing elements that we also have to go through,
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which one parent probably doesn't have to go through, but
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another might. And that becomes a whole extra
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element of a relationship that you need space for and time for
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to be recognized and to work on. Thank you for addressing that.
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And then when you speak about living overseas, blurring the
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boundaries, when you say crossing over thresholds or
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country lands as it is between work and family, personal space
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and partnerships, or even extended family back home
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influencing their decisions. What are some practical ways
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couples can actually set healthy boundaries and talk openly
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without fears of it becoming a source of conflict?
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Yeah. First I want to say that couples
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often avoid these conversations because they don't want their
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fears to be confirmed or they make an assumption, positive or
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negatively, about the other person.
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And so it really, really is important once again, to be
8:34
intentional about this and to have the conversation and not
8:38
make assumptions about your fears being realized or someone
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else's thoughts. So a good exercise is to simply
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talk about your boundaries and fears.
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I don't worry that speaking to boundaries and fears causes
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conflict. I worry more that couples are
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afraid to talk about these things.
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And that's really the problem that can become the growing
8:57
elephant in the room. So make time to share what
9:00
you're worried about and what you need to protect.
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It's really important to speak to these things.
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A boundary could be, I want to make sure that we go out on a
9:10
date once a month to protect our relationship, to protect our
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partnership. A boundary could be that you
9:15
don't want to potentially move again if you are a couple in
9:20
which you may be moving frequently due to one or the
9:23
other's job or even moving schools for your child.
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So yeah, it's something that needs to be discussed.
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And there are beautiful ways in which if you recognize that you
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can support each other in this way, setting kind of the
9:35
boundaries of the relationship or kind of the barriers of what
9:38
you can put forth, it's really a great way to help, to be there
9:41
for each other, to support each other.
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Can I ask you a hard question? How is it that you can say, hey,
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I feel like we need to reconnect or I feel like we're out of
9:50
alignment or like, is there a wording that you can use so that
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it's not a negative or it's not taken as criticism?
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I think first, you know your life and you know your partner
10:00
best, better than most. And so finding the time that you
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know that your partner would be most receptive.
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So that's first thing to keep in mind.
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Maybe right after someone gets home from work or a long day or
10:13
business travel may not be the best time to have this
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conversation. But if we address it with
10:17
kindness, if we address it with love, and we say something to
10:22
the nature of, you know, I'd really like to find some time
10:26
every week to connect for just 5 or 10 minutes to see how you're
10:30
doing, to talk about how we're doing.
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And we don't need to talk about anything specifically.
10:35
We don't need to address the things that are going wrong.
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We don't need to address the things that are going right.
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It could just be, you know what, this week was a really great
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week. And you could also, for example,
10:45
taking out of the conversation of the script per SE, but you
10:48
could show gratitude for how your partner showed up in these
10:51
moments. When you have these
10:52
conversations, you can celebrate the small moments like you know
10:56
what, I really, really think that our child is getting over X
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and that's thanks to us holding space for them, you know, or I'm
11:05
really happy that we're finding time to even 5 minutes, you
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know, finding time to have that 5 minute conversation.
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So maybe it takes a little bit reflection about how you want to
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say it. However, I do think that if you
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approach it with kindness and love and a moment for
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connection, there is really nothing negative to be seen in
11:25
that. I mean, there's a reason why you
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guys are together. There was a moment of connection
11:29
or a time period that sparked this connection.
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And so that's really just spending time, the little time
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of just five, 10-15 minutes, to really just have that moment to
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reconnect with each other and to talk about how things are going
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in your lives, which is so important for expat couples,
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economic migrant couples and immigrant couples.
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And just referring back to the previous questions about values
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and alignments, is there a question or is there some
11:55
framework that we can actually work with to allow us to sit
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down and review and figure out our morals and our values and
12:02
our dreams or aspirations? Because sometimes that's a
12:05
challenge for some people to figure out what are my pillars?
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Yeah, that's a great question. So there are lots of lists that
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you can find online, but I think the best question to ask
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yourself with a lot of these things is what makes me happy,
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you know, for values like keep it simple in regards to your
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dreams and your desires, you know, like what is it that you
12:24
dream or desire? Like we don't need to
12:25
overcomplicate things. Just write a few questions for
12:28
each one. And if you can find a way to
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break it down in very, very simple terms, that's often the
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best way to help us if we find these complicated tools or
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tables or lists in which we potentially end up you choosing
12:43
something that maybe someone else's value, desire, dream, et
12:46
cetera. I would depend more and learn
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more on the simplicity of things.
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And really just asking you yourself, what is it that makes
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me happy? What is it that I really want to
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do? What is it that I really desire
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to achieve? You know, just keep it simple
13:02
and then make sure that when you're asking these questions to
13:05
yourself, you compare the answers with your partner and
13:08
you ask questions about what that means.
13:10
Two people may say that they value family, but for one that
13:14
may mean stability, and for another that may mean adventure,
13:17
or that may mean the investment of a house and two children and
13:23
the dog, whatever it may be. So it's really important to just
13:27
follow that up with asking clarifying questions.
13:29
What does that mean for you? Because for me it may mean
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something totally different. That's actually quite an
13:34
interesting perspective that you always think someone might give
13:37
you an answer, but their answer means something different.
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Especially with cultures where you're like, well, stability for
13:43
someone from a different country can mean something completely
13:46
different than what we've. Had yeah, I think it's important
13:49
not to make assumptions, especially with multicultural
13:51
couples. I think that that is a route to
13:55
potential issues. Not that everything is a
13:57
potential issue, but because we are innately different.
14:01
We're raised differently, we have different cultures, we have
14:03
different customs. We were brought up in ways,
14:05
parented in ways raised, educated in ways that are
14:09
different. And so it can be immensely
14:12
beautiful to ask those clarifying questions to learn
14:14
more about your partner that you may not know, that you may have
14:17
not known. And not seeing it as like, well,
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you're different than I am. It's kind of a way to connect.
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You know, I say curiosity is the bridge to understanding.
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Like you're being curious because you want to learn.
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You want to know more about the person.
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So I don't see it as like, we're different.
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I see it as like, help me love you more, help me understand you
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more and what our family is going to grow to become because
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all of that is what is your family dynamic?
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Do you notice with couples like that there's a key moment in
14:47
their relationship, like an age of a child?
14:50
Like do you think starting school is a massive thing for a
14:53
family themselves or? Yeah, I think that this is going
14:55
to be different for every family, especially economic
14:59
migrant families, immigrant families if they happen to move
15:01
often, or expat families. It could just be that the family
15:05
moves and they have this big change.
15:07
But I truly believe that every family is going to be different.
15:11
Some kids are going to adjust better to different moments.
15:14
What a family needs to do is be present to these transitions.
15:19
Transitions have a three-step process in which you need to be
15:22
able to be present through the closing, the opening and the in
15:26
between. And the in between is often that
15:28
icky, sticky, kind of difficult, challenging time.
15:31
But if we are present, we can learn so much about ourselves.
15:34
We can connect with our children, which builds
15:36
resilience in them. And I'll just go back with, I
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really think that it's different for everyone, every family and
15:44
about all of that. You need to make sure you're
15:46
taking care of yourself. And this is where it comes into
15:49
the hobbies and the passions and the connecting with what is best
15:52
for me right now. And you know, making sure to
15:55
make that time for you, whether it's the mindful cup of tea,
15:58
whether it's going for the walk, whether it's going to the dance
16:00
class, the aikido class, it runs the gamut.
16:02
Everyone's different. But you really need to take care
16:05
of yourself as a parent when times are tough.
16:07
And often this is the time where people don't because things are
16:11
busy and tense and it's really needed.
16:13
You have to take care of yourself through these times and
16:15
it could be going to the exercise class because that's
16:18
how we let go of stress. You're talking about taking care
16:21
of ourselves, which obviously is a form of kindness.
16:24
You've actually mentioned in your post about the Four
16:26
Horsemen of the Apocalypse. So criticism, contempt,
16:29
offensiveness, and stillwalling. How can our international
16:33
families here practice kindness and compassion in their daily
16:36
interactions so that they can prevent those patterns and keep
16:39
their relationship strong? Yeah, it's a great question.
16:42
And I think the first thing that I would say is acts of kindness
16:45
and acts of generosity. This doesn't have to be some
16:48
grandiose gift of going to the spa or a spa weekend, although
16:52
those are great. It doesn't have to be so
16:54
grandiose. It could be that you let your
16:56
partner sleep in. It could be that you decide to
17:00
pause their favorite TV show because they're putting the kids
17:03
to bed that night and it's taking a little bit longer,
17:05
putting the kids to bed for your partner when it's their night to
17:07
put the kids to bed. Or maybe you always do it, but
17:10
the other one can take up a step in for you because you need a
17:13
night just to have 5 minutes to yourself.
17:15
Kindness is contagious. And if we think about it, these
17:18
things happen really, really, really frequently when we're
17:21
early on in love. We do things for each other.
17:23
They could be small gifts are small ways in which we show
17:25
appreciation, but as things get tough and our love sprouts in
17:30
different ways because it's children instead of just the
17:33
love between us too, those responsibilities kind of fade
17:36
away. These acts of kindness and
17:38
generosity. So kindness is contagious.
17:40
If you do those things, it usually sprouts more of them.
17:43
Second would be your partner's human.
17:45
Maybe they forgot about an important appointment or item
17:49
thing that needed to be done. But most times they're not doing
17:52
these things intentionally. It just kind of maybe they're
17:54
stressed about something that's going on at work or something
17:57
else came up and we can have compassion and understanding for
18:01
this if we keep in mind that they are human and these things
18:04
do happen instead of assuming the other, you know, the last
18:08
thing is, is really, really listen to your partner.
18:11
I think often times in the world that we live in these days, we
18:14
either are immersed in our phones or some other thing
18:19
that's distracting us. And so if we really listen to
18:23
them, and this could be the activity I described before,
18:26
where every week, you know, you kind of meet with each other and
18:28
you have that check in. If we really listen to each
18:30
other, people feel loved, they feel heard, they feel seen.
18:35
And there's an activity in the MBSR Mindfulness Based Stress
18:39
Reduction program in which people sit in front of each
18:41
other and they listen to each other for three minutes and
18:43
people feel so connected. And then there's an activity
18:47
after in which the person who's listening just doesn't listen at
18:50
all. And people feel destroyed,
18:53
disconnected. The, the list of adjectives goes
18:57
on, but really just fully paying attention, active listening,
19:01
it's something so small and it's so rare these days.
19:05
So those are three things that I think that we could do to show
19:08
kindness and compassion to our partners.
19:11
And these are great examples that set a path.
19:14
And yeah, an example to our children of just basic things
19:18
that can be done even by them with their friends, but also
19:21
which will develop to be how they treat other people when
19:24
they get older, their future partners, their future children,
19:27
et cetera. Something I do want to ask, and
19:29
this is because, well, as we've mentioned before we started
19:32
recording laws, there's a lot of relationship turmoil and
19:36
divorces and separations happening within our own
19:38
circles. We're talking here about trying
19:40
to save or trying to nourish or trying to replenish
19:44
relationships. Can I ask you about a partner
19:46
who might feel already resentful?
19:49
How can we bring them up to a baseline where they're able to
19:52
actually actively do the work that you're saying without
19:55
sitting still in that resentment?
19:57
Yeah, what needs to really be looked at is to why that
20:02
resentment is there. And there are many different
20:04
reasons as to why that resentment is there.
20:06
And this could be too much of the load.
20:09
This could be they had to give up their.
20:11
Career, this could be that they shut down at a certain point.
20:14
And in these moments, I would say that a neutral third party
20:17
is required. And this could be a coach, this
20:21
could be a psychologist, a therapist.
20:24
I would say that one could also talk to a friend that they
20:28
really trust as long as they understand this expat immigrant
20:32
economic migrant experience. And you could start there and
20:36
just be like, you know what, I just need you to listen.
20:39
You know, I just need you to listen to me.
20:41
I'm really struggling at the moment.
20:43
And if you just listen, I will feel better just to get it off
20:46
my chest and maybe even think through it.
20:48
So that's what I would say in regards to helping that person
20:51
to return to baseline, because that connection is what's going
20:55
to help that person get to repair that.
21:00
But you need to talk to someone to get through that.
21:02
And whether it's a good friend that you can rely on to just
21:05
give you that ear and not say anything and maybe a hug in the
21:09
end. Or you can also move on to a
21:11
coach or mental health care practitioner who understands
21:16
this potentially multicultural experience.
21:18
But also the experience of living the life that we live as
21:21
expats, economic migrants and immigrants is very important.
21:25
That, I would say, is definitely important, that last qualifier
21:28
of understanding the life that we live.
21:30
OK, well, this has been quite a powerful conversation and it's
21:33
obviously one that is never really spoken about.
21:36
It's such a unique top, well, not unique topic, but it's
21:39
unique for us with our specific, as you say, the expats, the
21:43
economic migrants, the immigrants and everyone else
21:46
that's involved here. So thank you for joining us and
21:48
sitting with us to talk through this.
21:50
If you were going to walk away with one thing, let it be this
21:53
strong relationships, they just don't happen.
21:56
They're the result of everyday choices.
21:58
Choosing to communicate even when it's uncomfortable.
22:01
Choosing kindness over criticism.
22:03
Choosing to keep showing up for each other, whether that's
22:06
through a proper date night, as Angela recommended, or just
22:10
those 5 to 10 minutes she said, without those phones or dishes
22:13
or the kids climbing over you. Our life will always test us.
22:16
We're raising our kids across cultures without our old support
22:20
networks and trying to figure out what's home and what it
22:23
really means. But the key is we don't have to
22:26
do it alone. Relationships take effort from
22:28
both partners, yes, but they also take a community.
22:32
And that's where we come in. Because here's the thing, there
22:35
are plenty of podcasts and articles all about
22:37
relationships. But this space, what Damn
22:40
parenting represents, what the Expat Parenting Collective
22:43
provides. It's specific to us, to
22:47
international families, to people creating new lives far
22:50
from their homelands, raising kids abroad and piercing
22:53
together a multicultural village that feels like home.
22:57
That's what makes this conversation different.
22:59
It's ours. So here's my invitation.
23:02
Don't just keep this episode to yourself.
23:04
Share it with your partner. Share it with a friend who might
23:06
be struggling and hasn't said it out loud.
23:08
Share it with anyone who needs a reminder that they're not alone.
23:11
Because we are part of your village.
23:14
And sometimes the bravest step is simply being willing to have
23:17
the hard conversations. Together, we can create a
23:20
beautiful landscape to learn, grow, and find joy in our new
23:23
homes. So thank you for listening and
23:25
thank you again to Angela from the Expat Parenting Collective.
23:28
Until next time, take care of yourselves, your family, and
23:31
your partnerships. We're in this together.