Latest / Rusty's Garage / Michael Masi

Transcript

Michael Masi · Rusty's Garage

• 0:02
  A listener production.
• 0:14
  I'm automotive commentator and journalist Greg Rust, and this is Rusty's Garage.
• 0:27
  I'm in Singapore for this episode.
• 0:29
  It's the day after the F1 night race, and I'm catching up with Michael Massey on the 37th floor of a hotel by the track.
• 0:37
  His story is a good one, and it's not widely known.
• 0:40
  An Aussie who now has one of the most important jobs in world motorsport, in a game that is filled with egos and intense politics.
• 0:49
  You'd be forgiven for thinking, wow, he suddenly burst on the scene.
• 0:53
  but it's no overnight success story.
• 0:55
  Massey is one of the hardest working people I know.
• 0:58
  Incredibly thorough, big on detail and widely respected, especially by the old guard.
• 1:05
  The role of Formula One race director came about at the beginning of the 2019 season, following the sudden passing of Charlie Whiting just days before the Australian Grand Prix.
• 1:15
  Whiting was part of the fabric of F1, much loved, and he'd been in the job for decades.
• 1:21
  Incredibly tough circumstances to get the call up, but Charlie, among others, had taken him under his wing, and Massey's diverse apprenticeship included the GP feeder categories Formula 3 and Formula 2.
• 1:33
  Australian motorsport is rightly proud of what Michael's achieved.
• 1:38
  He really has come a long way from the suburbs of Sydney.
• 1:42
  I grew up in Western Sydney and probably the type of cars varied from around where I was.
• 1:50
  It was very much the, let's call it the old Australian muscle to a degree.
• 1:56
  What are we talking, Kingswoods and Taranas?
• 1:59
  We're talking Kingswoods, Taranas, XC Falcons and GT HOs and things like that.
• 2:08
  And then from the other side, sort of the aspirational cars of looking at Ferraris and Lamborghinis and the sort.
• 2:19
  So I wanted to expand on the aspirational stuff because your Uncle Rudy runs Piccola Scuderia.
• 2:26
  Certainly did.
• 2:26
  He did.
• 2:27
  Fitzroy Street in Marrickville.
• 2:31
  Tim Jardine, a mutual friend of ours who's a producer in motorsport television, reminded me while we were here that he said it feels a bit like a Marinello mechanic workshop when you go in there.
• 2:42
  There's sort of an older style one with Alphas and Ferraris and things like that.
• 2:47
  Just describe it and how often you would go in there and things like that.
• 2:50
  Yeah, certainly.
• 2:51
  So that was very, when it existed at the time, it was no longer around.
• 2:56
  But it was very much an old school workshop.
• 3:00
  My uncle Rudolph was an amazing mechanic, and I was going in there doing all the administrative side of things.
• 3:08
  These hands aren't mechanics' hands, I'll be the first to admit, probably like yours.
• 3:16
  Yeah, so I was in there every day doing the administrative side of that business after I finished school and while I was still at college.
• 3:25
  And yeah, it was good.
• 3:28
  It was very much the old school little workshop.
• 3:31
  And yes, Tim Jardine used to come in probably every couple of weeks and sit down around in the lunchroom with the boys.
• 3:39
  And we used to have a hamburger and chips and solve the problems of the world.
• 3:44
  He remembers that fondly.
• 3:46
  You've ultimately ended up in Formula One, the dream for many people.
• 3:51
  We'll chart more of your career as we go in this discussion, but what was your first F1 experience, even if it was as a little tacker?
• 3:59
  Can you tell me where you were?
• 4:01
  100%.
• 4:01
  I remember it fondly.
• 4:04
  It was Adelaide 1992, the Adelaide Grand Prix, and finished my school exams.
• 4:13
  And mum, as a surprise, said, right, we're going to Adelaide for the Grand Prix.
• 4:19
  So I literally finished my exams at school that day.
• 4:25
  And off we went to Adelaide.
• 4:28
  You flew?
• 4:29
  You drove?
• 4:30
  What'd you do?
• 4:30
  No, it was a bit of a mixture.
• 4:33
  Mum and my late grandfather drove to Griffith to break up the trip with a family friend of ours at the time.
• 4:42
  So the three of them went in the car.
• 4:45
  And because effectively timing wise, I ended up getting on a little egg beater experience.
• 4:51
  aircraft to fly from Sydney to Griffith to meet them there.
• 4:57
  And we had family there, so we stayed there for the night and then drove from Griffith to Adelaide and stayed with family in Adelaide for the event.
• 5:05
  And, yeah, remember...
• 5:07
  I remember it fondly, sitting at the end of the Bravham Strait, right at what is now Turn 9 in the Supercars event.
• 5:17
  Left-hand side in the grandstand, watching the Adelaide Grand Prix and having grandstand passes, doing pit walks in the morning and things like that.
• 5:28
  You remember being in awe of the cars and perhaps the drivers?
• 5:32
  Was absolutely in awe of the cars, the drivers, the event, the noise.
• 5:37
  I remember having a Sega Game Gear at the time with the television tuner because you couldn't actually... Big screens weren't as sort of prominent, let's call it back then.
• 5:49
  So sitting there in my grandstand seat and watch the cars go by and then you've got your little...
• 5:55
  portable television at the time, which now seems antiquated, to watch what was going on and keep on track what was happening with the rest of the event.
• 6:02
  So, you know, I was very, very fortunate that I have and have always had the amazing support of my mother and that was sort of the real first Formula One experience.
• 6:15
  She was there with you at a very important event at Albert Park this year, I know, and she's a great supporter.
• 6:20
  Kelvin O'Reilly, former boss of Super Touring in Australia and a long-time successful motorsport administrator, who we both know heads up karting Australia these days.
• 6:29
  He recalls this pesty kid around 1995, 1996.
• 6:34
  I think you might have still been at school.
• 6:36
  And I think you had this dream of trying to put together a two-car alpha team in Super Touring.
• 6:42
  And he reckons it about...
• 6:43
  3.30 most afternoons after school would wrap up.
• 6:47
  The call had come through.
• 6:48
  You had all sorts of questions.
• 6:50
  How close did you get to stitching that dream together?
• 6:52
  And what were you endeavouring to do?
• 6:54
  Were they cars that Gabriele Tarquini had run in the British Championship?
• 6:58
  And what were you doing?
• 7:00
  So basically it stemmed from my uncle having started his workshop.
• 7:04
  And yes, I was still at school.
• 7:07
  The aim at that point, I think it winds back to the start of 1995, where scarily shows how long I've been around, that I recall you being a pit lane commentator at the first round of the Australian Manufacturers' Championship at Eastern Creek, now Sydney Motorsport Park.
• 7:24
  Wearing a crook jacket and tie, probably.
• 7:26
  Wearing a crook jacket and tie for that first event, which was effectively the advent of what was ultimately super touring in Australia.
• 7:34
  And...
• 7:37
  together with my uncle, was doing some work for one of the teams at the time, which was Peter Hills with the Ford Sierra, and had started his workshop.
• 7:46
  And I was like, I think we can do something here.
• 7:49
  So it was sort of the height of super touring, particularly the British Touring Car Championship under Alan Gower's stewardship.
• 7:57
  It was like, let's try and make something happen here.
• 8:00
  So I was...
• 8:02
  I think off air, Kelvin and others might describe me a little bit differently, but I think pesty little kid from school.
• 8:10
  And yeah, I was just... You meant that in a term of endearment.
• 8:14
  I reckon in an entrepreneurial way, he was really impressed that this young teenager had this vision and was endeavouring to stitch this thing together.
• 8:24
  No, absolutely.
• 8:25
  And it was sort of, you know, meeting different people at the events, you know, the events that were in Sydney at the time, because 95 was in year 11 at school.
• 8:36
  So second last year of school.
• 8:38
  And yeah, it was sort of trying to endeavour to keep pushing and having a look.
• 8:45
  I remember doing, you know, on BFB.
• 8:50
  school days off or student free days and bits and pieces going to sponsorship meetings and the like and putting together sponsorship proposals and all of that element, even through 96, to be honest, which was my last year of school.
• 9:06
  Yeah, when the Alfa Romeo side of it didn't quite come together and, you know, that included the likes of another mutual friend of ours in Peter Aderton and going through to promotional partners in North Sydney at the time.
• 9:20
  And, you know, I was very...
• 9:23
  very lucky to meet all of those different people.
• 9:26
  Ultimately, none of that occurred, but, you know, meeting effectively Kelvin and Barbara at the time who have and still are very dear lifelong friends.
• 9:39
  I call them my Gold Coast family to a degree.
• 9:43
  when we were chatting for this, he more or less welled up.
• 9:46
  I think he thinks of you a bit like another son for him.
• 9:50
  I mean, you lived in the house for a few years and worked out of the office there in an admin sense.
• 9:54
  I want to get to that.
• 9:55
  What I'm intrigued about at the moment is that on either the sponsorship chasing side or working in almost a kind of gopher capacity when you were a youngster there, you know, setting up the scales in pit lane and working with teams and things like that, you made yourself...
• 10:12
  an invaluable part of the framework.
• 10:14
  You'd probably argue that no one's indispensable, I know, in your mind, but you did.
• 10:18
  Everyone would go, oh, Michael does that.
• 10:20
  Oh, Michael does that, you know, and so it would go.
• 10:25
  Unlike a lot of kids, though, who probably dream of being Lewis Hamilton or whatever, you had obviously in your mind thought you wanted to either get into the administration or the business side of the game at a young age, did you?
• 10:38
  Yeah, so going back, I originally thought, once upon a time, I've always obviously had a passion for motorsport from a young age and loved it.
• 10:48
  But I originally thought, funnily enough, that I actually wanted to be a chef.
• 10:53
  Yeah, quite.
• 10:54
  And then my mother was working in a La Salle restaurant in Sydney in Brighton, which at the time was a beautiful restaurant and a magic location on the beachfront there.
• 11:05
  And so I was doing some waitering on weekends, effectively, as any 15-, 16-year-old kid does to earn a bit of pocket money.
• 11:14
  And very quickly worked out, having seen the boys in the kitchen, that I enjoy cooking for my own personal well-being and not for hundreds of people a night.
• 11:24
  So that thought very quickly went out the window.
• 11:28
  And actually, my original part was I thought I wanted to be an engineer because at that point, well, motorsport, the only pathway in is to work on a car.
• 11:39
  Yeah.
• 11:40
  and the family side of it of working on cars.
• 11:43
  So I thought, that's where I want to go.
• 11:46
  And very quickly realised at school that physics and chemistry were not my forte.
• 11:55
  So from there, you know, morphed into... Had a look and...
• 11:59
  Kelvin, to be honest, was a key influencer in this in saying, well, there's more paths than just the engineering side.
• 12:08
  There's the business side.
• 12:09
  And I really enjoyed the marketing and promotional elements.
• 12:13
  And, yeah, once I finished school in 96, I did Asia Pacific marketing at TAFE.
• 12:21
  And because there was no, the only event management courses at that time was at UTS in Sydney, if I recall correctly.
• 12:27
  And you effectively needed doctor's marks in the HSC, which were in the late 90s.
• 12:34
  And that wasn't me.
• 12:36
  So the only course that was the equivalent at that point was a sort of a marketing promotion.
• 12:42
  Of course, I did Asia-Pacific marketing at Meadow Bank TAFE in Sydney.
• 12:45
  Fantastic.
• 12:47
  which worked out extremely well because it was a four-day-a-week course, so Monday to Thursday.
• 12:54
  Mondays didn't start until the afternoon.
• 12:57
  Thursdays finished at midday, so it didn't impinge on the voluntary side of what I was doing in supertouring with the Ford Mondeos at the time.
• 13:09
  that I could effectively go to the events, do what I did, and it was literally a fully voluntary capacity.
• 13:16
  Yes, my flights and that got paid for and accommodation at the time, but as a 17-, 18-year-old kid, yeah, it was for the passion of it and learning and meeting different people.
• 13:29
  And, you know, I was very fortunate in this business, and I think...
• 13:35
  You and most others will agree, the people that you meet and the spectrum of people that you meet from all walks of life is amazing.
• 13:46
  So, you know, I was fortunate enough even here to catch up with Terry and Lillian Morris for breakfast.
• 13:51
  And Terry was, you know...
• 13:54
  Absolutely.
• 13:55
  He was the chairman of Toka Australia, obviously better known as Paul Morris's dad.
• 14:00
  But, you know, between Terry and Peter Aderton at the time with Kelvin as the CEO, you know, the three of them, I would say, were huge supporters in those early years, which led to ultimately in, at the end of 1998, working with Toka because I had become...
• 14:23
  that much of a pest to put it in Kelvin's words, that they offered me a job.
• 14:28
  So my first event with Toka Australia was actually the Macau event where I think eight or nine super touring car teams from Australia came to do the Macau Ghia race, which was all of the super touring cars from around the world.
• 14:45
  And I'd negotiate, I met a gentleman by the name of Max Kingston, who was at Ansett at the time, and negotiated a significantly discounted deal for all of the team, all the Australian teams, to go to Macau.
• 15:01
  Amazing, mate.
• 15:02
  We've actually just uncovered a little something that you and I share.
• 15:04
  We've gone completely different paths in motor racing.
• 15:06
  You went to Meadowbank and did, for international people listening to the podcast here, think of TAFE like college, I guess, in some respects.
• 15:14
  Yes.
• 15:14
  I did a similar marketing course, not Asia Pacific orientated.
• 15:17
  You were at Meadowbank.
• 15:18
  I was about 15km up the road in the Hills District doing a similar thing.
• 15:21
  I'm a little bit older than you, but we have gone on to...
• 15:25
  to different paths.
• 15:25
  I want to get to the admin stuff a bit more in a moment, but let's finish up a bit on that early race team, if you like, involvement.
• 15:33
  Firstly, you mentioned the Ford Mondeos there before.
• 15:36
  Were they ex-Andy Rouse cars?
• 15:38
  Can you recall?
• 15:39
  Was it a car perhaps raced by Paul Radisic?
• 15:41
  What was the history on that one?
• 15:42
  Yeah, so there was a...
• 15:44
  The Mondeo, so in those days, were...
• 15:48
  They were actually ultimately all Andy Rouse cars early on, and those cars then went to America for the North American Touring Car Championship, or Super Touring Car Championship, and Peter purchased the three of those in the, what's called, older style Mondeo look.
• 16:07
  Yeah.
• 16:08
  And for 1990... 1999, I think it was, that...
• 16:15
  They got facelifted, let's call it, into the more modern look.
• 16:23
  And which was...
• 16:25
  You know, there was ex-Paul Radisic World Touring Car Cup at the time, I think it was, that won.
• 16:32
  So those cars had some amazing history behind them.
• 16:36
  And I remember the internationals at Bathurst during the Bathurst 1000, when it was in the super touring days, looking at them saying, because they were in the new shape, saying,
• 16:48
  hold on, these cars have got the front engine Vs.
• 16:50
  These cars just don't look like what we built when it transferred from Rousers to West Surrey Racing.
• 16:57
  And that was because it was effectively the hybrid look version.
• 17:03
  But, you know, that was...
• 17:06
  That was a good, fun time and very grounding.
• 17:09
  You know, I met some amazing characters working with, like, some John Patchell, some Barrel, as he's affectionately referred to, and, you know, met some really cool people along the way.
• 17:22
  From an open wheeler perspective as well, if memory serves, did Rudy not have a Formula 3 team?
• 17:27
  And I reckon Peter Hacker drove for you guys at one stage too, didn't he?
• 17:31
  Yeah.
• 17:32
  So with the Toker side of it when I was working with them, that was a part-time basis.
• 17:36
  So I was actually based out of my uncle's workshop in Sydney, which is where I did his administrative side as well as working for Toker on a contract basis.
• 17:48
  And we ultimately, once the whole Alfa Romeo and then, you know, at one point Ferrari team which we were trying to set up the similar sort of time with sort of the two consecutive projects with running a 3-5-5 Ferrari in the Australian GD Production Championship under Ross Palmer's guys.
• 18:10
  And it was like, okay, haven't got the finances for that.
• 18:15
  So then in...
• 18:16
  I think it was in 1999, really, we ended up getting a Formula 3 car.
• 18:21
  And Peter Hackett came to, you know, sort of got to meet Peter early on.
• 18:29
  And Peter drove for us and we did a, let's call it a shortened program in 1999 for when he had the budget to do it.
• 18:39
  And through 1999, he met Betty Clamenco and Daniel, if I recall correctly, at a Porsche driver training day.
• 18:50
  And they got on extremely well to the point that the last round, Betty came out, which was the first time that I'd met Betty at the time.
• 19:01
  And I'm sorry, I'm
• 19:03
  I think Betty will recall this one vividly, as do I, that the two of us were sitting on the steps of our trailer devouring a bucket of KFC chicken at the time.
• 19:16
  And, you know, we've...
• 19:19
  still get on extremely well to this day.
• 19:21
  Betty and Daniel are amazing people and now the owners of Erebus.
• 19:26
  But at the time, it was the Cactus Group that was on the Formula 3 car and ultimately we won the inaugural Australian Formula 3 championship with Peter in 2000.
• 19:42
  And then that team went on for another three or four years.
• 19:45
  And that was sort of what I would argue was the strength of Formula 3 in Australia.
• 19:54
  Yes, it was a generation behind what England and so forth was running, but it was built in that way.
• 20:02
  And yeah, you know, there was a strong rivalry between us at Piccola Scudaria, there was you know, BRM, Bronte Rundle, with Ian Richards there, we had Sam Astuto, all those guys, and you know, there was 20, 22 cars of the day, and sort of that front pack of 10 to 12 cars competing, and then there was the gentleman drivers who were literally there having fun and were great.
• 20:28
  another sort of career defining moment, one could say.
• 20:33
  So what was the point where you went full tilt?
• 20:37
  I love the team stuff.
• 20:38
  I enjoy being around the cars, but I can see my future being in the admin side.
• 20:43
  And can you recall that moment?
• 20:46
  Yeah, it was probably doing the elements with Toka up until Toka, effectively, or Super Touring in Australia finished.
• 20:54
  And I quite enjoyed that side of it.
• 21:00
  So it was, you know, they were all part-time jobs, effectively, that I was gelling together to try and earn a living.
• 21:06
  Were you jack of all trades?
• 21:08
  Were you immersed in rule books?
• 21:09
  There was sponsorship stuff too, wasn't there?
• 21:12
  Yeah, in those early days, it was very much sort of the sponsorship marketing elements that were a part of it.
• 21:21
  But, you know...
• 21:23
  Toka in those days was hands-on.
• 21:25
  Everyone got into everything.
• 21:29
  We had the Amor brothers, Grant and Carl, we had Pete Greville.
• 21:35
  It was literally, it was a small team of people that did everything.
• 21:41
  There was no room for preciousness, let's put it that way.
• 21:45
  The only thing that we were 100% certain of is that when it came to packing up, we put Kelvin in a darkened room because he used to, that wasn't his forte.
• 21:54
  But not from those sides.
• 21:57
  It was very much, it was a rounded experience is probably the best way to put it.
• 22:05
  Yeah, it was, you know, from there, Toka finished up, concentrated on the Pickler side of it with Rudolf in 2001, continued doing some elements with Kelvin at times on different conferences and that he was running.
• 22:26
  And then when Kelvin started with Teiga, who was the 75% shareholder in supercars, so the teams group at the time, he gave me a call and, oh, we used to chat regularly anyway.
• 22:41
  And then we were chatting one day and he said, I said to him, I said, oh, well, if anything comes up or that...
• 22:49
  we can work together with, let me know.
• 22:52
  And I think at the time he got the approval of the TIGA board to employ someone because he had succeeded Wayne Katak who was doing that dual role.
• 23:04
  And, you know, I think if I recall correctly, it was Gary Rogers, Brad Jones were two of the board members at the time, effectively gave him...
• 23:14
  the budget to employ someone, and I moved from Sydney to the Gold Coast, and what was going to be a six-month contract, and I ended up living up there for six years.
• 23:26
  Amazing.
• 23:27
  So that...
• 23:28
  you know, then opens the doors in some ways to the next level.
• 23:34
  You are dealing...
• 23:36
  I think when I spoke to Mark Scaife for this, he can fondly recall this period and some of the people that were on the TIGA board back then and he sort of laughed and said, you know, you want to talk politicians.
• 23:45
  I mean, there were some serious operators in Australian motorsport and they all had different sort of ideas and agendas.
• 23:51
  It must have been quite an eye-opening thing for you, but one that clearly... Maybe you were to begin with, I don't know, but one that you clearly weren't daunted by.
• 23:59
  Um, I think...
• 24:02
  Outwardly, didn't look to be daunted by internally.
• 24:05
  Very.
• 24:06
  Very.
• 24:08
  But no, when I joined TIGA as, you know, as effectively the assistant to the GM, it was a wide varying role and it was a time in, effectively, where the teams were looking after their part, the supercars side of it, and...
• 24:30
  you know, sitting in TIGA board meetings where...
• 24:34
  you know, effectively you're looking at some of them, your childhood heroes to a degree, be it Larry Perkins, Mark Scaife, Mark Clarkham sitting in there, you know, then Ross Stone for a period.
• 24:48
  And, you know, the list goes on that here are people that, you know, as a kid are legends of the sport and sort of between on the phone to them for work purposes and that and,
• 25:02
  Yeah, it was a defining moment, but also ultimately became a bit of a challenging one.
• 25:10
  It's funny you mentioned, Mark, is that obviously with the collapse of the Walkinshaw Empire at the time, and TIGA had what was established was the TIGA Tribunal, which was effectively the dispute resolution mechanism within what was the team's licence agreement, now known as a RECC.
• 25:30
  for commercial contractual purposes.
• 25:34
  And the three gentlemen that sat on that tribunal were...
• 25:37
  It was chaired by Gary Connolly, who's one of the Formula One permanent chairmen, the FIA World Motorsport Council Member for Australia.
• 25:45
  So Gary was the chairman.
• 25:46
  Bob Glinderman, who previously was heavily involved at Shell.
• 25:55
  and was also one of the directors, became a board member at CAMHS and the vice president at the Confederation of Australian Motorsport, and Adrian Simons, who was a lawyer from Brisbane, and they were the three members of the Teagher Tribunal.
• 26:08
  And so my role sat as the secretary of that, and my first sort of real part with...
• 26:17
  with Mark came about in the whole investigation into the Worgenshaw Group collapse and then the Holden intervention and so forth.
• 26:26
  And that was some tough times at that point because that went on for probably... Two years.
• 26:33
  Probably a good two years and...
• 26:36
  getting the old legal letters at five to five on a Friday afternoon, the famous legal tax that took place.
• 26:45
  You know, there was the HRT, Holden Racing Team side of it with Mark.
• 26:49
  There was PWR with Key's Wheel.
• 26:52
  And there was the dealer team with John and Margaret Kelly at the time.
• 26:57
  And going through, you know, doing that whole investigation, I can say Mark and I laugh about it now, but...
• 27:06
  And he even recalls it.
• 27:07
  I remember sending some very strongly worded letters assigned to me.
• 27:12
  But obviously it was part of, you know, at the end of the day, it was part of my job.
• 27:16
  I was there in an administrative function and they were protecting what they had to do.
• 27:23
  I think both you and I have worked with him long enough to know that in those tough moments, because he is such a thorough, a competitive human being, that ironically in those tough moments, sometimes that's where you earn the greatest respect from him.
• 27:40
  I can see that in your case.
• 27:41
  We won't get delved too deeply into that Walkinshaw story because I think people can find that if they want to and go back on it.
• 27:48
  But what I will share is a little fun moment in relation to it.
• 27:53
  And Kelvin says there was two years, he reckons, worth of work that you both did.
• 27:59
  You knew it intimately, he reckons, that even Mark says the same now, that your work ethic, mate, is remarkable.
• 28:06
  You'll often work 20-hour days to get it done.
• 28:10
  It's been a hallmark of who you are.
• 28:13
  But you rock up with two cases full of notes, I think it was, to the...
• 28:18
  to the tribunal.
• 28:19
  I don't quite know the story here, but I think one of the lawyers wasn't articulating themselves too well.
• 28:24
  Kelvin kind of took the helm at one point and someone rolled out the great Jack Nicholson line, didn't they?
• 28:31
  You can't handle the truth or something like that.
• 28:35
  They did.
• 28:35
  That was actually Kelvin rolled that one out in the very last moments of the tribunal hearing that was taking place at Gary Connolly's office, funnily enough, in the boardroom there.
• 28:47
  It was two days.
• 28:49
  It was actually, I won't forget it because it's how I spent my birthday, was sitting in a tribunal hearing that year.
• 28:57
  But yeah, it was.
• 28:58
  Kelvin did roll that line out, which was like, he sort of had to take a moment and go, you tip-bots.
• 29:05
  But, no, it was, don't get me wrong, those times at that time were extremely full-on for all of us.
• 29:15
  including the three teams involved from a TIGA perspective.
• 29:20
  In those days, I would say, that HRT was the team from all fronts.
• 29:30
  And it was pretty intense because it soaked up two years of my life in a large degree, as well as that of TIGA and a little bit of supercars.
• 29:42
  It was a major sporting story, not just motorsport story at the time.
• 29:47
  You have talked a little bit and highlighted kind of mentors for you.
• 29:51
  I guess Kelvin is clearly one of them.
• 29:53
  You've worked as GM for Scafie with various enterprises that he's involved in and clearly have a good relationship there.
• 30:00
  And Gary Connolly, who is so well regarded in global motorsport.
• 30:05
  Three very different characters.
• 30:07
  How have they impacted on you and what are the learnings that have perhaps helped you to this day?
• 30:12
  Um, it's probably...
• 30:14
  There are three of a few, to be honest.
• 30:18
  So, you know, I've been...
• 30:21
  Very fortunate that I count all of my various people as mentors.
• 30:27
  There was Graham Fountain, who was the CEO at CAMHS, who sort of taught me an element of the way of dealing with things.
• 30:36
  Obviously, Kelvin's been a huge influence, particularly when it comes to regulation writing and understanding regulations, which is completely his forte.
• 30:45
  Working with Mark as general manager of his business since the start of 2012,
• 30:51
  and sharing an office with him even till now.
• 30:55
  When I'm in Australia, I work out of Mark's office.
• 30:58
  And, you know, Gary, when I first came across him with the TIGA days and working together with him sporadically, there's been...
• 31:09
  Tony Cochran in the regard, who was chairman of Supercars.
• 31:13
  There's been Terry Morris in his way.
• 31:17
  Peter Aderton with his flamboyant style.
• 31:22
  So for me, even with Wayne Caddack as a CEO at Supercars at the time, and just working with
• 31:32
  all of these various characters, you know, even funny, some people will say, but even the likes of a Gary Rogers, when Gary was on the board for, the Tiger board for multiple times, being an uber successful businessman, but having that flamboyance to him in a different regard.
• 31:51
  And all of these characters,
• 31:54
  all of them in my formative years, let's call it, have been a huge influence.
• 32:00
  And then, you know, I go on to, when I did Rally Australia, I was fortunate enough that Ben Rainsman was my chairman there.
• 32:09
  all of them at various points.
• 32:13
  All of us have our strengths and weaknesses.
• 32:15
  I don't care who you are, everyone has them.
• 32:18
  And you learn something, I've learned something from each of those people and still continue to learn.
• 32:25
  The part I think that's a good sign of it is that the majority, well, pretty much all of them, I still keep in contact with, probably not as much as we'd both like in any of them, but we keep in contact and they've all, you know, probably this is the first time they'd be hearing it, but all of them have had an amazing influence on my life and on my career.
• 32:52
  Scafie says, even now, mate, and I'm sure there are days where either the pure hours you have to put in or the politics or the strenuous nature of what you're dealing with, you're dealing with elite-level sport, business, that must take its toll on you.
• 33:10
  But he says you never lose your passion for motor racing.
• 33:13
  At the core of it is this just immense love for it.
• 33:16
  Is that right?
• 33:17
  Yeah, it's true.
• 33:18
  And, like, you know, Mark...
• 33:21
  Mark's probably seen me, particularly last year, if you look at the start of it, I was dovetailing in, I did all of the supercar events last year as the Deputy Race Director to Tim Schenken, who, you know, in a race director capacity...
• 33:43
  has, is not only an amazing support, a fantastic mentor and teacher, but importantly, a friend.
• 33:54
  So, you know, there was last year in Mark's right, it was a tough year doing all of the supercar events.
• 34:02
  I did, I think, seven or eight Formula One events as the deputy race director to Charlie.
• 34:09
  And yeah, it,
• 34:12
  It has an impact, but
• 34:16
  Each day is a new day and you strive on.
• 34:19
  And, yeah, I'm very passionate about what I do.
• 34:22
  I think the part that Mark's probably been quite influential is the attention to detail, which we can both attest to, and that passionate side of it.
• 34:35
  We, you know, right, wrong or indifferent, one part with Mark is that he is one of the most...
• 34:43
  still to this day, even in business, one of the most passionate, focused individuals that...
• 34:53
  I've ever met.
• 34:55
  You know, a lot of people only see the public side of Mark or have ever seen the public side of Mark.
• 35:01
  But I'm fortunate enough that he, Tony, Mitch, Mia and Tilly, being the family, are amazing friends.
• 35:11
  And, you know, he is a truly genuine mate that's there at all hours as needed.
• 35:18
  That's why he's won so many Bathurst and championships, because he has that attention to detail, that incredible passion to do it at 110%.
• 35:26
  You have, from my observations, a great trait, Michael, and that is you work collaboratively with people.
• 35:36
  I don't know anyone who has a bad word to say about you.
• 35:39
  And at the same time...
• 35:41
  You're playing in a game that requires conviction.
• 35:44
  You have to have conviction when it comes to some of those decisions.
• 35:47
  That's a real tightrope to walk, to keep that garnered respect that you've worked so hard for and yet still be strong enough to deliver those things.
• 35:56
  That's not easy done, but I sense in you that a lot of that is...
• 36:01
  your ability to work with all these diverse characters?
• 36:06
  Oh, 100%.
• 36:07
  It's, you know, if you want a microcosm of the world working in elite sport, not just motorsport, but elite sport, but, you know...
• 36:18
  be it supercars previously, Formula One now.
• 36:23
  You've got some, not just ultra, but I'd say uber successful businessmen.
• 36:29
  You've got some of the major corporations in the world and, you know, some amazing athletes.
• 36:39
  They're not just drivers.
• 36:40
  They are truly athletes involved.
• 36:43
  And then you've got...
• 36:46
  you know, the politics that happened behind the scenes.
• 36:49
  And, yeah, it's a tough, tightrope to walk.
• 36:53
  I'm not going to deny that.
• 36:55
  But one of the things that I did in my...
• 36:59
  I've tried to always do is, you know...
• 37:03
  work with all the key people, but there's got to be a time where, guess what, you've just got to make a decision, stick to your decision, and be hard, but be fair.
• 37:16
  And, you know, in the Formula One world this year, it's been a massive learning experience for me because whilst, you know, you've got all your grounding and everything with what you've done previously...
• 37:32
  It is to a complete other level, which is, you know, I always, you always know that it is, but until you experience it, it's very hard to describe.
• 37:48
  We'll get to some of the aspects of this in a second.
• 37:52
  I want to finish a little bit of your Australian career before the international stuff with, I mean, you've talked a little bit about supercars and working with the Confederation of Australian Motorsport, even the Motorsport Foundation, helping the likes of Scott Pye and Joey Mawson and people like that.
• 38:08
  supercars naturally is on the CV there.
• 38:11
  But you've got diversity there as well.
• 38:13
  You highlighted one of them a moment ago.
• 38:14
  I mean, even rallying, it's not just circuit racing that is the standout thing on your CV, is it?
• 38:21
  No, not just circuit racing.
• 38:23
  So,
• 38:24
  When I was working for CAMS, so I moved from Supercars as the Assistant Operations Manager for the Supercars Championship and running, at the time, what was the Fujitsu Series, now the Dunlop Super 2 Series.
• 38:41
  and moved to CAMS in March 08.
• 38:45
  Was involved, actually, funnily enough, in the first Singapore Grand Prix in 2008 as a member of the CAMS international training team.
• 38:53
  But then in 2000, late 08, there was a desire from CAMS to reinvigorate Rally Australia.
• 39:03
  and move it to the East Coast.
• 39:07
  So I had some friends who I'd grown up with in Western Sydney, in Fairfield, who were working within the government, and I just asked them who would be the best person to speak to about...
• 39:23
  you know, getting an introduction because at the time, Events New South Wales had just been established, which is now Destination New South Wales.
• 39:31
  And got to, so with my, remember it clearly, myself, Gary Connolly and Graham Fountain going to Sydney to do a presentation to Events New South Wales about having Rally Australia
• 39:46
  because a deal had been done between Australia and New Zealand to share effectively the event on a one-year-off with Repco sponsorship.
• 39:56
  And we very quickly came to an arrangement with the New South Wales government and through Events New South Wales at the time to have Rally Australia 2009 in Mwoolumbaugh.
• 40:07
  So, you know, between the three of us being myself, Gary and Graham, I got that deal across the line.
• 40:14
  And for the 09 event, I went up to Mwoolumba for whatever it was, two months to effectively help run the super special stage at the time, which was the Speed on Tweed course.
• 40:30
  Yeah.
• 40:31
  And a mutual friend of ours, Rob Van Leeuwen and I, who had been involved in rallying, particularly in Western Australia for a number of years, lived together in Kingscliff in a rented house.
• 40:42
  So it was the odd couple of me doing the cooking and Rob washing the dishes for two months.
• 40:48
  Am I right in saying you were effectively kind of GM there?
• 40:51
  You were hands-on with everything in many respects, weren't you?
• 40:53
  Yeah, in 09, it was very much still doing my cams role, but being up there.
• 40:58
  And then in 2011, once I came back from the Korean Grand Prix and setting that up, no doubt go into that separately, I moved to Coffs Harbour in 2011 as the CEO of Rally Australia for the first time on the Coffs Coast.
• 41:18
  That was an intense 11 months.
• 41:21
  In that CEO role, were there, you know, did you have to venture off and do other learnings for that side of your skill set?
• 41:27
  Or was it purely that you'd done enough hands-on things over time that you knew what to do in that role?
• 41:32
  It was...
• 41:34
  was very much had to learn on the go.
• 41:40
  You know, it was, I had probably some of the key elements that I'd learned previously.
• 41:45
  Some of them I hadn't even realised I'd learned, to be quite honest.
• 41:49
  But again, I was fortunate.
• 41:52
  I had a fantastic board at Rally Australia to rely upon, um,
• 41:59
  So there was, you know, Ben Rainsford was my chairman.
• 42:02
  Andrew Papadopoulos, the president of CAMHS, was on the board.
• 42:06
  A gentleman by the name of Don Davies, who was a lawyer in Brisbane who's still on there, who knew how things sort of happened.
• 42:17
  Stephen Found, who was the representative of the New South Wales government, who owns the theatre at the Star in Sydney, who comes from an entertainment background.
• 42:27
  you know, representatives from the Coffs Harbour Council, and it was probably a mixture of everything that I'd learnt from my previous lives that I brought together.
• 42:42
  I remember very clearly once I moved up early January and Ben Rainsford, who was the chairman, came up and his one key criteria as chairman said, yes, I have a no-surprise policy.
• 42:56
  Good, bad or indifferent...
• 42:57
  tell me as it is.
• 42:59
  And at least that way we can work together on resolving it.
• 43:03
  And that's probably something that I've taken forward with each of the teams that I've worked with is that it's better to know what's going on than it come back and bite you in a different way of not knowing.
• 43:20
  I think that's straight...
• 43:21
  talking approach still serves you enormously well to this day.
• 43:24
  You touched on the international aspects of your career.
• 43:27
  You mentioned Macau, of course, with Super Touring and being here in even Singapore in its formative phase and with the Confederation of Australian Motorsport helping significantly on the official side for some of the new events that have emerged in Asia.
• 43:40
  You braced yourself in Korea for quite some time too, didn't you, when that event came to be.
• 43:47
  Was that the real first connection with the likes of Herbie Blash and Charlie Whitinger?
• 43:53
  Or if it's not the first, perhaps the point where that connection really became important in your world?
• 44:02
  100% without doubt.
• 44:04
  So I, on behalf of CAMS, had negotiated the deal with the Korean motorsport governing body, CARA, and with the promoter of the Grand Prix.
• 44:16
  and to effectively bring a CAMS team of officials.
• 44:19
  So you're like a conduit here, basically, are you?
• 44:22
  I was at the time, so that was part of my role at CAMS.
• 44:26
  And I think we brought, in the end, 145-odd CAMS officials to the inaugural Korean Grand Prix, which was an amazing feat in itself, but part of my role was effectively the training and the sporting side, because...
• 44:44
  whilst Korea had a motorsport history, at that level it wasn't something that they had really experienced.
• 44:53
  And Jo Chung, who was the president of the ASN at the time and also quite heavy in the promoter, was an Australian-Korean.
• 45:02
  So he lived at Hampton in Melbourne for six months of the year and lived in Seoul for the other six months.
• 45:09
  So, did the deal on behalf of CAMHS and ultimately moved up there, I think it was May 2010, to help deliver that project.
• 45:21
  And I said this to a few people after the event, once it was delivered, but there was a lot of rumblings in 2010 that the Korean Grand Prix wasn't going to happen.
• 45:32
  And...
• 45:33
  I'll be one of those that I'll say in hindsight, neither did I.
• 45:36
  Got there and the circuit would have best been an off-road jump truck course where it was.
• 45:46
  And, you know, from just being where I was, I ended up getting roped into project management and everything else.
• 45:53
  And to touch on the point that you made, it was my first...
• 45:58
  close working relationship with Charlie and Herbie.
• 46:00
  I'd met them in Melbourne previously.
• 46:04
  Tim Schenken had introduced me.
• 46:05
  He obviously still is the clerk of the course for the Australian Grand Prix.
• 46:09
  So I'd met both of them each of the years.
• 46:12
  But, yeah, the big one was 2010 and, you know, I think come about July that year.
• 46:21
  I was delivering weekly progress reports to Charlie and to the FIA president, Jean Todd, on what was happening at the event because it was a big one.
• 46:34
  And, you know, yes, ultimately it happened, but, yeah, working with Charlie for all of those, you know, it was a tough time.
• 46:45
  You know, he was just brilliant, brilliant to work with.
• 46:51
  He was very good to you, I know that, and you did a lot together.
• 46:57
  How did you, what was the first call where he, or perhaps it was someone else in the FIA, decided to bring you closer to that international family, get you more involved on the international side of the sport, having done so much in Australia and this part of the world?
• 47:13
  It was probably a couple of different areas.
• 47:16
  So part of, you know, in recent years, part of my various contract roles that I'd been doing, part of my CAMS role was to help with the international training and regional training that CAMS were doing either directly or together with the FIA.
• 47:33
  So I'd been involved in various projects from that side of, you know, be it in delivering regional training in Korea for all of the Asia-Pacific governing bodies to, you know...
• 47:52
  Nepal and you know.
• 47:55
  Massive earthquake I think when you were there too wasn't there?
• 47:57
  Yeah it was the day the earthquake hit I was presenting.
• 48:01
  I was actually literally standing up in a room in Kathmandu when the earthquake hit and the FIA President Jean Todd was there with Michelle Yeoh, his partner.
• 48:12
  Graham Stoker, the FIA Deputy President was there and that was you know it was
• 48:18
  an extremely tragic, sad time.
• 48:21
  You know, one of the, I think, well, it's the strongest earthquake that Kathmandu, Nepal's ever experienced and killed thousands of people sadly.
• 48:30
  But that was a scary day, that one.
• 48:34
  So, yeah, there was, you know, that training, but that training I delivered on behalf of the FIA in various areas
• 48:42
  forms, so to speak.
• 48:45
  And then part of it with my Deputy Race Director role in supercars and having worked in sort of the race control element for so long in supercars was that in 2018, start of 2018, the FIA ran a FIA Race Director seminar, which was then coupled with the FIA Stewards seminar.
• 49:08
  So...
• 49:10
  Supercars and Cams agreed for me to go to the race director seminar together with Tim Schenken, Matt Selle and Chris McMahon, who are two of the Supercars Permanent Chairman, Trevor Newman, another one of the permanent Supercar Stewards, and the group of us effectively went over for that at the start of last year.
• 49:37
  and did that course in Geneva.
• 49:40
  You aren't selling it enough because I know what you're like, but I'm told you were like top three in the world and then you had to get an endorsement, didn't you, do three events, is that right, to get the kind of rubber stamp?
• 49:51
  Am I right there?
• 49:53
  Yeah, I did quite well in the stewards seminar and part of that as part of the FIA's international training program.
• 50:01
  I was one of those that got selected to do three different events through 2018, which was I did the Formula E event in New York.
• 50:13
  I did Macau, the World Touring Car Round last year, and a Formula One trainee in Mexico.
• 50:22
  So that was... That's big stage stuff, Michael.
• 50:25
  I know, admittedly, on the official side, the spotlight might be on the racetrack and the action happening on the racetrack, but they're very important roles in those events.
• 50:36
  Did you pause for a moment and take in that you were doing this stuff?
• 50:40
  They were certainly pinch-yourself moments, I'll be the first one to admit.
• 50:44
  But, you know, that was sort of ultimately the point that led to me being asked to be the deputy last year.
• 50:55
  So, you know, I...
• 50:57
  Herbie Blash, who was the long-time FIA observer and sat what we now deem as the Deputy Race Director role, is a member of the FIA Volunteers and Officials Commission and was at that seminar.
• 51:10
  And Herbie was coming out to Australia a couple of weeks later for the Superbikes event with his role that he does with Yamaha.
• 51:18
  He loves the bikes, doesn't he?
• 51:20
  He does love the bikes.
• 51:22
  We joke with him and call him the Yamaha mascot.
• 51:26
  But, no, he's...
• 51:29
  He's a great friend.
• 51:30
  He loves the bikes.
• 51:32
  Herbie said, I'm coming out to Australia to Phillip Island for the Superbike event.
• 51:38
  Let's catch up for a bite to eat one night.
• 51:40
  It was literally two mates catching up for dinner.
• 51:45
  He started asking about career aspirations, what I wanted to do, where I wanted to go.
• 51:51
  We both know that...
• 51:53
  Herbie was probably Charlie's best friend, lifelong friend from when they worked together at Bravham.
• 51:59
  He employed him at Bravham.
• 52:01
  And so I said to Herbie straight out, well, it's quite simple.
• 52:07
  Ultimately, my aspiration, my career goal, as we all have goals of where we want to achieve, is to succeed Charlie.
• 52:15
  And Herbie's response was very simple.
• 52:18
  He said, cool, let's make that happen.
• 52:20
  And, you know, in the background, Herbie's been an amazing support even through this year.
• 52:31
  And so that was sort of, OK, got left at that point, early February, mid to February.
• 52:37
  Call it seed planted or it was, you know,
• 52:42
  initial discussion had.
• 52:43
  Yeah, initial discussion had and so from there the first moment and I remember it clear as day was Wednesday the Wednesday of event week for the Adelaide 500 the supercar event round one sitting, having dinner in Adelaide with Tim Schenken and the stewards that night and it was about nine o'clock at night and my phone rings and look and it's like
• 53:11
  Charlie Whiting's like, hold on, these are Barcelona pre-season tests.
• 53:14
  What does he want?
• 53:16
  So, yeah, and it was the point of when Charlie had been told that Laurent Meckiez, who's now the sporting director at Ferrari, who was the deputy race director, had resigned and was leaving to go to Ferrari.
• 53:32
  And Charlie said, this is what's happened.
• 53:36
  I'm going to need a deputy, would the role be of interest to you?
• 53:42
  And it's like, well...
• 53:44
  Yes.
• 53:46
  Don't need to think.
• 53:46
  That is for a millisecond.
• 53:47
  A millisecond.
• 53:48
  Yes, it would be.
• 53:50
  But part of it was, and I said to him straight away that night, it would be an element of what the FIA would like because from I'd already made a commitment to supercars to be Tim's deputy for the year, which I highlighted to Charlie.
• 54:06
  I said, you know, if it's a...
• 54:07
  a part-time, you know, trial thing or whatever it might be, then, you know, I've made a commitment to supercars.
• 54:14
  If it's something that the FIA is looking to engage full-time, then I'll have to have some very quick discussions at this end.
• 54:24
  So that was sort of, it's like, okay, leave that with me.
• 54:28
  I know you're effectively around and available.
• 54:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 54:33
  And he said straight out, he said, I'm speaking to Herbie and he suggested to ring you.
• 54:39
  So that was sort of their first part and probably their biggest part
• 54:45
  frustration that night was having to go back to the dinner table and finish dinner and had to keep my mouth shut.
• 54:51
  So the only one that I could tell was I rang my mother and let her know.
• 55:00
  So it was a yeah, it was sort of a surreal moment the next morning waking up going, did I just have that conversation?
• 55:08
  And sort of, you know, when you go through your phone, yep, certainly did.
• 55:14
  A lot of young people that are perhaps listening to the podcast, Michael, in life now, not everyone, but many young kids are at immediacy.
• 55:24
  They want to get there now.
• 55:26
  They want to get there fast.
• 55:27
  There were moments, I think, as you went along this varied path to get to Formula One where there wasn't always an opening or the opening might have taken a little bit longer to get to and things like that.
• 55:40
  It's also a great lesson in...
• 55:43
  To keep batting, mate, isn't it?
• 55:44
  You know, don't give up on that mission.
• 55:48
  And sometimes if it takes you to the left so you can come back to the right, that's, if you do it right, it's a good thing.
• 55:55
  Yeah, I think the big part for me is being true to yourself and don't be afraid.
• 56:02
  to take different paths.
• 56:04
  You know, yes, we all like the nice straight road, straight pathway to get it done here now immediately.
• 56:14
  But, you know, looking back in hindsight, that, you know, it has been a meandering river.
• 56:21
  It has had its twists and turns and ups and downs and sacrifices along the way and,
• 56:29
  Yeah, it's don't give up, I think is the big part.
• 56:32
  You know, I've always had... Everyone should have a goal.
• 56:37
  Everyone should have an aspiration.
• 56:38
  Don't be afraid if you don't achieve it immediately.
• 56:42
  And that's been, you know, probably the biggest life lesson for me and going back to those various mentors that I've discussed earlier is it just with each of them, it's a never give up.
• 56:57
  attitude.
• 56:57
  If one door closes, another one opens.
• 57:00
  If one door's slammed in your face, guess what?
• 57:03
  Another one will ultimately be opened and welcoming.
• 57:08
  And yeah, I don't necessarily take the no for an answer and try and find, have tried to find different paths to do things.
• 57:22
  But
• 57:23
  the one part that I try to continue to achieve is to be me, you know, and continue to try to be the best in myself that I can.
• 57:34
  And, you know, I've said to a lot of people that if what I do is not good enough, one thing I'm going to rest assured of is that...
• 57:42
  I know within myself that I tried and did the best that I could do.
• 57:46
  And as long as you do the best that you can do, I don't think you should be disappointed.
• 57:51
  Sometimes those goals may not be achieved immediately, but with some luck stands you in good stead for the future.
• 57:58
  MUSIC
• 58:10
  The Singapore Grand Prix takes place on the Marina Bay Street Circuit and was the inaugural night race and first street circuit in Asia.
• 58:18
  2019 has been a huge year for you.
• 58:25
  It began in...
• 58:30
  very sad circumstances in many respects at Albert Park in Australia.
• 58:35
  We've talked in the podcast so far about Charlie Whiting, who was an incredible, irreplaceable figure in many respects in Formula One.
• 58:44
  He had been race director for as long as I can remember.
• 58:47
  You talked before about him working for Brabham, the race team, back in the day as well.
• 58:52
  He had this unbelievable...
• 58:55
  ability to in his race director role and many other roles that he does or did to to garner the respect that of everyone in the paddock
• 59:07
  You were driving to work on race weekend.
• 59:10
  You had a great relationship with him and you had to go to the hotel to pick him up, didn't you?
• 59:16
  No, no.
• 59:16
  So what actually happened was we got there and Charlie's famous words were, if you're on time, you're five minutes late.
• 59:30
  And that was always his...
• 59:33
  adage that he was always at least five minutes early.
• 59:38
  So we were due to leave the hotel at quarter past seven that morning.
• 59:43
  And it was going to be myself, Chris Bentley, and Charlie going in because we had a stewards teleconference with the four permanent chairman.
• 59:50
  Effectively, the first briefing of the year, they happened every four events.
• 59:55
  So just getting the four chairman on the phone to discuss what was going to happen.
• 1:00:00
  And...
• 1:00:02
  Come quarter past, I got there about five past seven, waiting in the foyer, and Chris and I, Chris survived a few minutes later.
• 1:00:09
  It was quarter past seven, and sort of like, oh, we knew that the FIA president was coming to town, and I was like, okay, he might have got caught on the phone with Jean being in town.
• 1:00:24
  Then sort of 20 past seven comes, and it's like...
• 1:00:29
  I'll send him a text message because he was pretty good at responding at those and knowing he had a read receipt on his messages.
• 1:00:39
  So sort of five minutes later, that didn't get responded to.
• 1:00:44
  So Chris tried to ring him.
• 1:00:48
  Phone didn't answer and the two of us sort of going, there's something not right here.
• 1:00:53
  So at that point, we called our doctors, Dr Ian Roberts and Dr Elaine Shandegra, who's a FIA medical delegate and FIA deputy medical delegate, and said something's not right with Charlie, can you come down?
• 1:01:07
  We didn't know what it was.
• 1:01:09
  And once Elaine and Ian went up there, the first group of us effectively went to the circuit, but I think we all knew in our heart of hearts it wasn't good.
• 1:01:26
  And, yeah, internally the news came through to us, you know, ten minutes later that Charlie had passed in his sleep and obviously from our end couldn't say boo to anyone, not even, you know, outside of our sort of core...
• 1:01:51
  smaller group that was there when it happened, couldn't say anything even to the rest of the FIA team until, you know, everyone generally had been advised.
• 1:02:05
  How did you feel, Michael?
• 1:02:07
  Because this is among the mentors, another one who played a very significant...
• 1:02:13
  you know, part in where you've ended up, mate.
• 1:02:16
  Did you have time to process that?
• 1:02:18
  Because it was a crazily...
• 1:02:19
  It would turn out to be a crazily busy weekend for you.
• 1:02:22
  Yeah.
• 1:02:23
  And at the same time, a huge loss.
• 1:02:25
  Yeah, I was...
• 1:02:28
  I probably had a moment when, you know, that morning I literally went and found a corner, effectively, at Albert Park.
• 1:02:44
  There's no one else around and broke down.
• 1:02:50
  And just, it was one of those.
• 1:02:54
  I actually knew that mum was in Melbourne, so I called her just to let her know.
• 1:02:59
  this is what's happened.
• 1:03:02
  And... Did she help?
• 1:03:04
  Did she say something?
• 1:03:05
  Oh, she was...
• 1:03:07
  as shocked as any of us.
• 1:03:10
  I remember myself and Colin Hayward travelled back with Charlie the night before to the hotel and saw him in reception.
• 1:03:18
  He said, right, cool, we'd planned the next day what was going to happen, even planned dinner on the Thursday night.
• 1:03:27
  I said, OK, cool, so I sort of left it.
• 1:03:30
  at that um so everything it's like yep this is what's going to happen in very charlie fashion this time we're doing this this time we're doing this and bang bang bang bang bang to the point that uh dinner was methodical it's like yep we're going to this restaurant we'll leave at this time there shouldn't be too much happening so it's like very very charlie organized structured um
• 1:03:54
  And so, but yeah, mum was, you know, mum was his, and huge, amazing support, and just chill.
• 1:04:03
  And yeah, that morning was tough.
• 1:04:06
  We even had, you know, team managers coming up because there's certain timeframes of the briefing notes being distributed and...
• 1:04:18
  elements like that.
• 1:04:20
  Team managers sort of coming up in their stroppy, okay, why haven't we got our notes?
• 1:04:25
  What's wrong?
• 1:04:27
  And it's like, you know, by that time, 11 o'clock and 11, 11.30 in the morning.
• 1:04:33
  And
• 1:04:35
  It's like, guys, just...
• 1:04:38
  It's been a bit of a delay.
• 1:04:40
  Charlie's unwell.
• 1:04:42
  And we're just trying to get some few things together.
• 1:04:47
  And, yeah, it was, I think, give or take, it was about midday that day that the public note of information went out that, yeah, he had passed.
• 1:05:04
  So...
• 1:05:07
  I mean, everyone at the, understandably, at the Australian Grand Prix that day in Melbourne, everyone was talking about it.
• 1:05:16
  How much did he mean to you and how significant was that passing?
• 1:05:22
  Huge.
• 1:05:22
  Like, you know, let's be honest, he ultimately gave me my chance to work in Formula One.
• 1:05:31
  End of story.
• 1:05:32
  That's, you know, there have been various others that involved in various parts, but, you know, he was not only...
• 1:05:40
  a mentor and gave me my chance, but he was a, he was a friend, right?
• 1:05:46
  You know, just sitting there at night chatting about random stuff.
• 1:05:53
  Let's be quite honest.
• 1:05:54
  It was far from chat about motorsport in the evening.
• 1:05:58
  It was, you know, his family, his kids, holidays, what's the latest movies you've watched on planes and all of that.
• 1:06:07
  And he was just,
• 1:06:10
  He was a really humble individual whose work ethic was just undescribable, would be the best way.
• 1:06:24
  The scope and amount of work that he did was, even to this day, you sort of go, that's superhuman stuff.
• 1:06:37
  Everyone says what it's like.
• 1:06:39
  in the role that I've done, filling those shoes.
• 1:06:41
  And it's quite simple.
• 1:06:43
  Those shoes were an individual pair made for one that will never, ever be filled.
• 1:06:47
  And I actually said this to Charlie a couple of times last year.
• 1:06:52
  He said, for me, it's not that...
• 1:06:56
  theme of talking about like in supercars when I was planned as the successor to Tim in the discussions I had with Charlie when there was a couple of us sharing the role last year with myself and Scott Elkins the Formula E race director said Charlie Restrault no one will replace Charlie Whiting it will be a new Formula 1 race director will be appointed and the role may be split in various regards but
• 1:07:24
  and they will do elements in their own way.
• 1:07:27
  But the big part will be that I'm replaceable, and he will.
• 1:07:30
  He is irreplaceable.
• 1:07:31
  I think even I've read some quotes that Herbie said the same thing, and it's true.
• 1:07:37
  So, yeah, Melbourne Thursday was Melbourne Thursday, but then the entire weekend, yeah, was...
• 1:07:50
  had to sort of sit back on Monday and is this actually real?
• 1:07:56
  And honestly, it took probably a few events.
• 1:08:00
  So, well, he's actually, he really isn't here.
• 1:08:03
  You know, the Melbourne weekend was like, okay, he's unwell, he's at the hotel.
• 1:08:07
  You know, in the back of your mind, you know what's forefront, what's going on, but, yeah.
• 1:08:13
  are doing an amazing job, mate.
• 1:08:15
  And you, at that time, I would think in his honour, picked it up and ran with it, and you were given the opportunity to be the race director in Melbourne.
• 1:08:26
  And I would imagine the days that followed, it's...
• 1:08:32
  the opportunity that you were striving for, that you would like, but at the same time they were very difficult circumstances to take the reins, and yet it's an honour at the same time, isn't knowing that you had to do that for you?
• 1:08:45
  Yeah, Melbourne was, you know,
• 1:08:48
  I won't sugarcoat it in any way, shape or form.
• 1:08:50
  Melbourne was tough.
• 1:08:53
  It was an honour that completely supported.
• 1:08:59
  It's ironic in some regards how these things happen.
• 1:09:04
  We had the FIA president, Jean Todd, was in Melbourne for the Grand Prix this year.
• 1:09:10
  The FIA deputy president,
• 1:09:12
  was in Melbourne.
• 1:09:14
  Unplanned, the FIA Director of Communications was in Melbourne for the Grand Prix.
• 1:09:21
  So all of sort of this senior FIA hierarchy, let's call it, who normally would not be at an event, were, and were in the country.
• 1:09:32
  So there was the element of
• 1:09:36
  Thank God that they were there.
• 1:09:38
  And come Thursday, myself and Colin Hayward, who is the now Deputy Formula One Race Director, who's been working, I think, he told me the other day, this is Grand Prix number 299 for him working in the FIA.
• 1:09:55
  delivered the team managers meeting in Melbourne and we cobbled together a draft from the previous year's notes within sort of that hour from 12 till 1.
• 1:10:10
  And just went to the team managers meeting.
• 1:10:13
  The two of us delivered it and was quite open and said...
• 1:10:18
  Guys, we need your help.
• 1:10:21
  If there's anything missing, whatever, let's just work together to get through this.
• 1:10:29
  And all of the team managers, being the sporting directors, were unbelievable because at that point, the president had made a decision on what was going to happen and that happened late.
• 1:10:45
  Thursday afternoon when he arrived because he was in other parts of Australia doing elements with automobile clubs and so forth so he arrived and we had, you know, he briefed the entire FIA team with all of our contractors and
• 1:11:01
  and then we had a further meeting with a smaller group of us and went through and Ross Braun obviously is the managing director of motorsport for F1 group was there together with Steve Nielsen the F1 sporting director and you know went through and said this is the plan for the weekend subject to his approval where
• 1:11:25
  either i would fill the race director role colin to fill the deputy function uh and colin's other functions as the race control systems manager um we had some of our contractors from sbg software and from readle that could help with those and it's like okay
• 1:11:47
  fine.
• 1:11:48
  Okay with that.
• 1:11:50
  And then the stewards obviously had to make their various changes documentation-wise.
• 1:11:54
  And, you know, with...
• 1:11:57
  the president's support, the support of Ross Braun, and we ultimately ended up having Steve Nielsen, the sporting director, sitting there with us, who had been long-time sporting director at Williams previously, who was sitting there to sort of provide an extra set of hands from a team perspective that weekend, and just having that background.
• 1:12:22
  And, yeah, we got through the weekend and, you know, from that event, the part that in our team meeting that I said to the entire FIA team on the Sunday morning, I said, if this is the only Grand Prix that I do as the race director, one, I couldn't be more proud of the way that they all pulled together.
• 1:12:51
  and the way that we all, they all supported each other, but their support of me effectively is the junior, you know.
• 1:13:01
  We're talking about people that have done two, three, 400 Grands Prix, and there's Michael who did eight in perspective.
• 1:13:12
  So, you know, this is the only event I do with you.
• 1:13:15
  I couldn't be more proud of...
• 1:13:17
  the way that they did everything um and then you know it was come monday i'll say i'll be the first i think all of us did that the adrenaline stopped which is what gets you through something like that and oh i fell in a heap on the old couch at home i can tell you it was um
• 1:13:39
  Yeah, it was, you know, the first moment that I'd sort of had to sit down, process a little bit of what had actually occurred.
• 1:13:48
  And, yeah, it was, you know, it's a mentally draining time.
• 1:13:55
  So, yeah.
• 1:13:57
  We fast forward to Singapore where you and I are sitting here now.
• 1:13:59
  You are race director and have done for 15 rounds, which is amazing, mate.
• 1:14:06
  A lot of learnings in all of that.
• 1:14:09
  And there's been some tough moments along the way.
• 1:14:13
  But the common thing people keep telling me is what a great job you are doing.
• 1:14:16
  And you have brought...
• 1:14:18
  a bit of your own moniker to it as well, I think.
• 1:14:22
  I mean, the greater presence of the bad sportsman flag is almost a bit of an Australian thing.
• 1:14:29
  We have this, you and Craig Baird and others have worked in supercars and had this play-on approach.
• 1:14:37
  You've tried to ensure that wherever possible, minimise the stuff that happens in race and try and let the combatants play on.
• 1:14:48
  Haven't you?
• 1:14:48
  Yeah, I think there's a few elements to that.
• 1:14:51
  There was a number of years ago, I think it was 2017, the principle of let them race was the phrase that keeps coming out.
• 1:15:02
  And we had a meeting with all of the drivers and the sporting directors in Bahrain after the drivers' meeting to get their understanding for our benefit of
• 1:15:17
  What does let them race mean?
• 1:15:18
  What is the big ticket items for them?
• 1:15:22
  And that was sort of where the pathway started because I was obviously appointed for Bahrain, but it was a one-off and then continued event by event.
• 1:15:31
  But...
• 1:15:33
  Yeah, there's the play on approach.
• 1:15:35
  I can't say I'll take, I can't take full credit for it.
• 1:15:38
  It's been very much a true partnership between us all.
• 1:15:43
  And between us all, I mean, from the top of the FIA, being with the president, and then at all levels, including with our stewards, then having, you know, our key partners in the Formula One group,
• 1:16:01
  the teams and the drivers.
• 1:16:04
  And, you know, part of it was trying to find out with the bad sportsmanship flag, the black and white, why it stopped being used.
• 1:16:12
  Because whilst we call it, you know, we've been around in Australia, I think most other motorsport people
• 1:16:20
  are aware that it's used at all levels.
• 1:16:22
  It's used regularly.
• 1:16:24
  Club all the way through to the World Endurance Championship and others.
• 1:16:29
  Even speaking to Anthony Davison, who does the World Endurance Championship, he said, oh, we've used the black and white flag.
• 1:16:36
  He said, you'd think that it's a new thing in some areas of the media, but we're that used to seeing it in the work.
• 1:16:42
  So, yeah.
• 1:16:44
  Yeah, it was sort of trying to work out and getting back to an understanding of why it stopped being used.
• 1:16:51
  And then with the support of everyone...
• 1:16:55
  using it.
• 1:16:56
  It's a warning flag.
• 1:16:57
  It's one of the tools in a race director toolbox that you have at your disposal.
• 1:17:04
  And so after doing all the investigations, we made a decision that from SPA onwards, the first event after the summer break, that we advised the drivers and the teams that we would use it.
• 1:17:20
  So all it is, it's actually no different to what's happened before.
• 1:17:24
  contrary to what a lot of people think.
• 1:17:26
  Previously, it was a one-on-one warning.
• 1:17:29
  So we have an intercom system with each of the teams and with Charlie's reign or even earlier in the year, this year with me, I used to advise the team directly that...
• 1:17:41
  That's a warning.
• 1:17:43
  Effectively, elbows are too far out, tuck them in.
• 1:17:47
  And all it now is, and I heard a comment the other day from someone saying that it's a more transparent way of doing it, and that was my view of, why should it just be a one-on-one warning when everyone can know that we've seen it and that driver's been warned.
• 1:18:06
  So it's just a different way
• 1:18:10
  of dealing with something we already dealt with, but with a very different outcome, let's call it.
• 1:18:15
  When you arrive at a race weekend, I think in Singapore, where you got on, may have been on Tuesday night or Wednesday before the race that you arrived, it's probably very difficult to say in a handful of words what the race director role is, because you're busy right across the weekend.
• 1:18:30
  But if you had to sum it up for someone who wasn't a motor racing person, how would you describe the title, the role?
• 1:18:39
  Interesting one.
• 1:18:41
  It's multifaceted, to be quite honest.
• 1:18:43
  There's, I'm the Formula One race director and the safety delegate.
• 1:18:48
  So in the safety delegate capacity, there's the track inspections, looking at the circuit, making sure that all of the safety installations, working with the clerk of the course and the local officials to make sure recovery and all of the trackside marshals, flag marshals and everything is all set.
• 1:19:08
  working with our medical delegate and deputy medical delegate to make sure that all the medical side...
• 1:19:14
  Probably one way to put it is at an event, the race director role in a broad sense is the team manager of the FIA team.
• 1:19:24
  But then once you get into the...
• 1:19:26
  on-track components, the race director role is one of consistency.
• 1:19:32
  So you're there to do, effectively, I'll call it the clerk of the course, is the circuit expert and knows their officials.
• 1:19:41
  The race director knows the sporting regulations and, you know, dealing with the teams and is the continuity expert.
• 1:19:49
  is the consistency from one event to the next from a sporting end to make sure things happen in exactly the same way.
• 1:19:55
  So from, you know, it's called ultimate decision to display the red flag and stop a session, to have a safety car intervention, have a virtual safety car intervention, review incidents that might happen on track, not only from if drivers are at...
• 1:20:19
  Generally, is there something to look at?
• 1:20:20
  And then referring that to the stewards to investigate.
• 1:20:24
  So contrary to popular belief, the race director role doesn't actually issue any penalties.
• 1:20:29
  That is, all penalties are issued and incidents investigated by the stewards.
• 1:20:34
  I will review them and suggest that they might have a look at them, but they can absolutely look at them of their own volition at any point in time.
• 1:20:44
  So it's a multifaceted role, and then you have the other element of dealing with sporting managers, running a team managers meeting and dealing with things that happened at the last event, this event, future events, future planning, and then working, you know, running the drivers meeting and getting input from the drivers on...
• 1:21:04
  various elements as the year has gone on.
• 1:21:07
  And, you know, you touched on it earlier, but my approach, and I've said this to a few people, this is Formula One event 15 for me here.
• 1:21:18
  you know, let's hope I get many, many more to come.
• 1:21:21
  But each and every event, you learn something new.
• 1:21:24
  And I think each and every person learns something new every day in their life.
• 1:21:29
  And you keep learning effectively for every day that we're on this earth.
• 1:21:33
  And from my view, I've said to the drivers quite openly,
• 1:21:38
  let's continue to work together, and I said to the teams, let's continue to work together on achieving what we want.
• 1:21:46
  I think the best way of putting it is a lot of people want grey areas, let's call it, when it comes to driving.
• 1:21:55
  The let them race approach, the play on approach, to use the Australian vernacular.
• 1:22:01
  So everyone likes that shade of grey until it affects them.
• 1:22:04
  Then they want very clear black and white, and I've said this to them all.
• 1:22:08
  And I said, so let's, rather than, let's work together on defining what that shade of grey is.
• 1:22:16
  And, you know, that's just probably my approach generally of trying to work with people.
• 1:22:23
  You know, there's a lot of very smart people that have been around a very long time.
• 1:22:30
  And for me, it's probably just offering a...
• 1:22:32
  a fresh set of eyes in looking at things in a different perspective and asking the questions of why things aren't done in different ways just as part of the learning some of it you say okay cool fair enough that makes complete sense and others you know okay are there better ways of doing things
• 1:22:48
  Well done.
• 1:22:49
  There's been some good stuff in the press from senior Formula One people that have spoken glowingly about what you've done.
• 1:22:57
  I know you're not one to get excited about pumping your own tyres.
• 1:23:02
  But let's, as we go to the finish year, deal with a couple of things.
• 1:23:06
  best piece of advice you were i'm sure everyone came to you with advice going into the race director role what was the best piece of advice and what's the biggest learning you reckon you've got i mean it's the it's one of the top jobs in international motorsport huge pressure you're in the public eye in in many respects because you're you're the umpire and and um there's a lot that falls on your shoulders mom
• 1:23:30
  Yeah, there is.
• 1:23:33
  Best piece of advice in my career, probably in one part, was that when people try to get to obtain your view on regulations and trying to get interpretations and trying to asking questions in surreptitious ways, let's call it, your initial answer should always be no.
• 1:23:54
  because it's far easier to give someone a yes later on down the track once you've had time to study and work out why they want to do something.
• 1:24:07
  But the first answer should always be no, and that was from Kelvin.
• 1:24:10
  I think that originated from Alan Gow, to be quite honest.
• 1:24:15
  So that was a very, very good piece of advice because it's...
• 1:24:19
  Serves you now, probably.
• 1:24:20
  Serves me well now.
• 1:24:21
  But, yeah, it's far easier to say yes after you've said no rather than going back the other way.
• 1:24:30
  Another piece of advice is probably be true to yourself, be yourself.
• 1:24:35
  And I've said to my closest mates that I've grown up with, if I've changed or have changed in any way, feel free to knock me down well and truly as much as necessary.
• 1:24:53
  But, yeah, just being true to yourself, I think, is the big part that...
• 1:24:58
  You know, there are times that are going to be tough.
• 1:25:02
  But, you know, and use everything that you've learnt from all of those various people, mentors, experiences.
• 1:25:13
  But ultimately, you're going to do things your own way.
• 1:25:18
  And, you know...
• 1:25:21
  It is a very big world.
• 1:25:24
  Let's not sugarcoat it.
• 1:25:26
  It is the premier motorsport competition for me and I think anyone will agree in the world.
• 1:25:33
  It's competitive.
• 1:25:36
  It is big business.
• 1:25:37
  It's not just sport.
• 1:25:39
  It is huge business.
• 1:25:41
  And you've got to try and balance things.
• 1:25:46
  all of that.
• 1:25:48
  There's egos involved and all the rest of it, but also being true to this event here.
• 1:25:56
  There's 900 volunteer officials who willingly give up their time.
• 1:26:00
  In Australia, there's a thousand odd volunteer officials at the Grand Prix, Baku, 11, 1200.
• 1:26:09
  And these are all people that
• 1:26:11
  at the other spectrum, willingly give up their time because they are passionate about the sport that I can say here, that we all love.
• 1:26:20
  And, you know, spending time with each of them and trying... You know, myself and Colin have made a point wherever it's humanly possible to go and thank the officials at their briefings because without them, what we have here, what we all enjoy, won't happen.
• 1:26:39
  So, yeah, I think being true to yourself is probably the biggest one.
• 1:26:45
  And, yeah, I'm, you know, I count myself as extremely fortunate.
• 1:26:52
  I have the support of some amazing people all the way through, be it personally and professionally.
• 1:27:02
  And without that support mechanism as a whole,
• 1:27:07
  Not everything's possible.
• 1:27:09
  John Todd is the top man of the international governing body, the FIA.
• 1:27:16
  He's had experience, been very successful in the area of rallying, of course with the Ferrari Formula 1 team, and now in an administrative capacity.
• 1:27:28
  What's your relationship with him like?
• 1:27:29
  And do you get daunted when the boss rings on the phone?
• 1:27:35
  I'll be honest.
• 1:27:35
  At first, yes.
• 1:27:38
  let's be quite clear, in Melbourne, I obviously met John a number of times through the various FIA training and that that I delivered.
• 1:27:49
  But in Melbourne, and considering the circumstances, yes, it was daunting, and I'll be the first to admit that, and daunting at some of the subsequent events.
• 1:28:00
  And, you know, quite openly, I was effectively...
• 1:28:06
  in a trial period up until the summer break, which putting his hat on, completely support because you've got to see how someone who you don't really know operates in these different circumstances and performs and has the different challenges that might be thrown at them.
• 1:28:25
  But my relationship with the President is great.
• 1:28:28
  He's been hugely supportive and...
• 1:28:31
  particularly as the year's gone on.
• 1:28:32
  We've got to know each other more, both professionally and personally.
• 1:28:40
  you know, when he comes into race control and sits there, be it for a few minutes or whatever, just to see what's going on.
• 1:28:48
  He's very much the first.
• 1:28:51
  If there's something that he doesn't like or doesn't understand, he'll ask you personally.
• 1:28:58
  He won't just go out there.
• 1:28:59
  He'll say, can you explain this to me of why?
• 1:29:03
  Yeah.
• 1:29:04
  on the other front, is very much the first to say, come up and say, well done.
• 1:29:09
  And, you know, he's been a huge supporter.
• 1:29:16
  If there's questions or things that he'd like investigated or to get a better understanding of, he's been there.
• 1:29:22
  And, yeah, without, I'll be very honest, without his support, but probably the broader part that...
• 1:29:30
  everyone misses is that at a Formula One event within the FIA side I'm just one piece of the puzzle the team that I have around me
• 1:29:45
  I've got an amazing team.
• 1:29:46
  We all do everything together, be it the technical team, ultimately led by Nicholas Tambasis as the head of technical matters, but then at an event through Joe Bauer and that side of it, to the sporting team that effectively I lead with Colin and Chris and Christian.
• 1:30:05
  And then, you know, the press and media team with Olivier and Tom.
• 1:30:10
  And, you know, there's all of those various elements.
• 1:30:14
  And, you know, I'm just one cog in that puzzle.
• 1:30:20
  It's not a one-man show.
• 1:30:22
  And...
• 1:30:24
  I think that's the part that, yes, ultimately, at an event, it was made very clear and fair enough, the buck stops with me.
• 1:30:34
  If there's any questions or whatever.
• 1:30:36
  However, I couldn't do it without...
• 1:30:39
  each and every one of them, and that's been since day one.
• 1:30:43
  I've been fortunate enough to have Colin Haywood sitting by my side, who has been sitting in race control all of those years.
• 1:30:53
  Who knows how things happen.
• 1:30:55
  Chris in the office, Christian Brill, who's now the permanent starter, who's been around, you know, and then words of advice from the likes of Herbie, who does a welfare check, let's call it, every couple of weeks to see how things are going.
• 1:31:10
  And, you know, I just count myself as privileged to work with an amazing group of people, you know, even with...
• 1:31:19
  the broader Formula 2, Formula 3 team of staff that come to the European, a lot of the events where those events are at.
• 1:31:26
  You know, Rome wasn't built in a day, as the adage goes, and, you know, it's not a one-man show.
• 1:31:36
  So, yeah, that's probably, for me, the biggest part that Jean has realised and appreciated of how many different pieces there are and the way that we all do work together as a team.
• 1:31:49
  Charlie did so much, mate, and was involved in so many things.
• 1:31:55
  The focus for you right now is the immediate, you know, the race director role and just, I think you're probably living in the now in that sense and making sure that that is the focus.
• 1:32:07
  What about the beyond this?
• 1:32:09
  Have you thought long term, I mean, will you have to...
• 1:32:11
  Currently, I think you still reside in Melbourne and you come and go and...
• 1:32:16
  Will you have to move to Europe and things like that?
• 1:32:18
  Yeah, well, at the moment I've got my roles confirmed through to the end of the year.
• 1:32:24
  Beyond that, we'll see what happens.
• 1:32:27
  But, you know, if it were to continue, there's no doubt I'll have to relocate to Europe.
• 1:32:34
  That's a given.
• 1:32:36
  Whilst I love Australia, all of my family and friends are there, it takes its toll travelling, you know, 26 hours...
• 1:32:46
  each way for a lot of the events.
• 1:32:48
  And, you know, at the end of the day, the operational hub of everything is Europe.
• 1:32:54
  The first part of the year and the back part of the year, you know, has its back-to-backs and so forth involved.
• 1:33:01
  And, you know, 22 events next year, who knows what that's going to increase to beyond that.
• 1:33:07
  So, yeah, ultimately, if things continue, we'll...
• 1:33:14
  have to move but we'll worry about that step when we get there but it is yeah it's very much living in the now from the perspective of i've got a job to do i'll continue to do the best part best role that i can um and continue to work with everyone to make sure the
• 1:33:32
  you know, come Abu Dhabi Sunday night when that chequered flag drops and the final results are signed off by the stewards, that we can all look back and go, you know what, let's have a quiet drink to say very well done.
• 1:33:51
  And one, thanks to the...
• 1:33:55
  Thanks to Charlie upstairs who's been overseeing us as the Guardian Angel all year.
• 1:33:59
  But well done to everyone in the team collectively for what they've achieved in, you know, a very tough set of circumstances that's had a huge number of challenges thrown at us throughout the year.
• 1:34:14
  Final one.
• 1:34:15
  Is there a little resto project maybe in later life and a little card?
• 1:34:20
  I don't know.
• 1:34:21
  It might be an alpha that you were inspired by from the days with Rudy.
• 1:34:25
  Is there a little something like that that one day you might like to do?
• 1:34:30
  And you've got no time to do it at the moment, I know.
• 1:34:35
  That's the key.
• 1:34:39
  One day when I'll, let's call it much older and I can't say very grey because as you know, I'm growing rapidly.
• 1:34:46
  I'm trying to catch up more than you.
• 1:34:48
  I'm trying to catch up to you.
• 1:34:52
  People will laugh.
• 1:34:52
  A Mini Cooper S. Is that right?
• 1:34:54
  No.
• 1:34:55
  And is it a particular year, a particular style?
• 1:34:58
  What have you got your heart to like?
• 1:34:59
  Just an old Mini Kupress in the vermelium red with the white roof.
• 1:35:04
  Just always liked Minis.
• 1:35:07
  Beautiful.
• 1:35:08
  Congratulations, mate.
• 1:35:09
  It's a great story that's been an honour to sit and to share.
• 1:35:14
  I think for people that have aspirations in motorsport, you're a reminder that it doesn't just have to be about the engineering or the driving side.
• 1:35:22
  There is so much more to it than that.
• 1:35:24
  I owe you a lunch after this.
• 1:35:28
  But, but, Scaifey's reminded me, you don't mind, you know, a nice French or Italian meal, but he says, you've probably still got your first dollar.
• 1:35:36
  You're not big on pulling out the wallet to pay for it.
• 1:35:38
  Is that right?
• 1:35:42
  Coming from him...
• 1:35:44
  That's a big call.
• 1:35:45
  One would suggest Sir Lunchalot himself.
• 1:35:49
  And no, I can definitely say that I'm more than happy to shout a good lunch.
• 1:35:56
  I do enjoy good food.
• 1:35:57
  So no, I, false yes.
• 1:36:02
  Don't get wrong.
• 1:36:04
  I enjoy spending money on nice things.
• 1:36:07
  Do I say that I throw things away?
• 1:36:09
  No.
• 1:36:09
  But we all enjoy good food and good wine, but it's a bit rich coming from Sir Lunchalot.
• 1:36:16
  Top job.
• 1:36:16
  You're doing a lot of great stuff and keep powering.
• 1:36:20
  Thank you.
• 1:36:20
  Thanks for the time and good to see an old mate in a different country.
• 1:36:29
  Rusty's Garage is written and presented by me, Greg Rust.
• 1:36:33
  Series producer and editor is Alex Mitchell.
• 1:36:37
  Audio production by Darcy Thompson.
• 1:36:46
  Listener.