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Lincoln at Gettysburg · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

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History's strange, it's alien, and it won't give us what we
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would like to have and our custom on Tuesdays in the 8:00
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hour, except for next week because I'll be on vacation.
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We have Dave Bowman in Dave is with us all day on Tuesdays and
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in our 8:00 hour it's Dave does history.
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And today we're headed to Gettysburg, PA, not for election
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issues, but for Civil War related issues.
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Dave, tell us where we're going today.
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You know, if you had talked nicely to me, I might be willing
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to be here live next week, but we'll see the.
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Producer here for you to be here live next week.
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Yeah, but. I don't.
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Yeah, but I don't need you. Somehow the radio station does.
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I don't know how. In the late summer of 2023, I
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was driving from Toledo, OH to Washington, DC, and my wife,
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whom I love dearly, wanted to stop just outside of Baltimore,
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MD to visit an old friend of hers.
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But after we were halfway there, her friend had called her and
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said she wasn't going to be available until later in the
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evening. So we needed to find a way to
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delay our arrival in Baltimore by about four to six hours.
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And I quickly realized that I had the perfect place to spend
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that time right on the way. Not even out of the not even out
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of the way Gettysburg, PA. And so it was a clear hot day
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when I LED my son across part of that battlefield.
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To me, the part that speaks the loudest, the very edge of
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Cemetery Ridge and the the angle where the final moments of the
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battle. The Confederates came, the
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closest they ever came to breaking through, but ultimately
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failed. It was the so-called high tide
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of the Confederacy, and it is a place full of history and a
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place full of lessons for a dad to share with his son on a sunny
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afternoon. So we walked along.
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My wife snapped a picture of myself and Ben as we walked past
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the big statue of John Hancock. And it's clear if you look at
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the picture that I am deep into telling him a story about what
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happened here. And Ben is looking at me.
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And we are enjoying the break from traveling across the
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country. We took a few minutes to visit
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the gate of the cemetery where on this day, November 19th,
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1863, a dedication ceremony had taken place to consecrate the
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ground that now held the more than 3000 Union soldiers who had
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been killed on this field during the Battle of Gettysburg.
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After a quick stop at the interpretive center where I
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bought this coffee mug, Gettysburg on one side and oh,
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it's even better on the other side.
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History. I like it.
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Yeah, that's done. We were on our way to Baltimore
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to visit the friends, and eventually we made it to our
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hotel on the outskirts of Washington, DC.
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Now, I had been to Gettysburg before.
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The last time I'd been there was in 1991.
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That trip in particular had been an amazing trip, with an
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experience that I'm going to save for another day's
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discussion, but I had been deeply moved by that experience
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and impressed by what happened here both in 1863 and to myself
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in 1991. For all that, though, having my
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son here, showing him the place where so much of importance and
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impact had occurred, was a reminder of why twice, first in
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July and again in November of 1863, this place was so
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important. And it reminds us it remains so
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important to us and our understanding and our belief in
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the mission of America today. Links to both Dave Bowman's show
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and Dave Dave Does history podcast posted for you on the
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show page today at billmic.com. The headline there, a culture of
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intimidation. Dave, what's disturbing as we
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start this conversation about Gettysburg, it is how much of
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that era's history people have tried to wipe out over the last
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decade or so, removing statues, references to things that
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happened during that Civil War period.
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And I think it's important to keep those for the reasons
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you're talking about, the things you've shared with your son
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while you were there. Well, it without getting too far
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afield of things, I believe history's purpose is to
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inculcate us with values and and principles.
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And you're right, those things are there for that reason.
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One of the great things about Gettysburg is that Gettysburg
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isn't playing that. If you've ever been there, you
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know what I'm talking about. I have, I have a whole book that
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just, it's just about the monuments that are in the park
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at Gettysburg. It's an amazing place.
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And of course, at the angle on Cemetery Ridge, you have the
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Pennsylvania monument, which is just gigantic.
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And it's, it's just an incredible place to go.
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For those of you who might not remember your history too well,
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the the Battle of Gettysburg fought in July of 1863, July
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first, second and third was an accident of history.
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It shouldn't have happened, but the two armies were maneuvering
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around each other. Lee had invaded the North.
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He had invaded Pennsylvania and Mead.
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General Mead and command of the Union Army had only been in
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command for a few days. And so he was still trying to
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get his feet underneath him, trying to figure out what's
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going on. And the two armies sort of found
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themselves reversed in position. In other words, the Confederate
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Army was to the north and the Union army was to the South, if
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that makes any sense to anybody. But in in a quirk of history,
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one of the Confederate forces decided they'd heard that there
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were shoes available in Gettysburg.
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And of course, the Confederate Army didn't have a lot of shoes.
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They went charging into Gettysburg to try to get them.
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They began what was known as a a moving engagement against the
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cavalry commanded by Buford. And literally millions of words
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in 10s of thousands of volumes have been written about every
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inch and every minute if not every second of the Battle of
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Gettysburg. If it's, it's one of the most
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studied battles in all of history.
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And even if you go there today, you literally, I mean, every 10
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feet there's there's a monument to something that had happened
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there. What we kind of seem to forget
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sometimes, and maybe that's maybe that's there's a reason
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for it, is the absolute slaughter that this battle
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involved over the course of three days, four if you really
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want to count the June 30th conflicts, but there's those
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aren't normally counted as part of this, but over those three
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days, 40,000 men were killed, captured or wounded, 40,000
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people. Bill, that's I mean, you're
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talking about one of the bloodiest battles in the history
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of of North America. It's not the bloodiest single
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day, but imagine just being around that the screams, the,
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the, the, the agony that the wounded are going through and
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the way this battle is fought, it's just a horrible, horrible
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thing. And that includes, by the way,
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roughly 3100 Union soldiers who are killed during the battle.
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The Confederates will actually lose more dead in the battle.
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But for the moment, we're focusing on the Union side of
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this thing. 3100 troops are killed.
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But at the end of the day, at the end of July 3rd, the Union
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has held, they have not let the Confederacy take the high ground
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as as was said. And Lee realizes that he is not
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able to win. He's not able to push the Union
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Army, the army, the Potomac off that high ground.
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And as long as they hold that high ground, he's stuck.
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He can't, he can't go forward. He's going to have to, he's
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going to have to withdraw. And he does.
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It's a celebratory day because the next day, of course, is July
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4th in Gettysburg. It pours rain.
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So imagine this, you've got these fields covered, Bill, with
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thousands of wounded men who can't move, who are in agony,
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pain. And it is pouring rain.
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It is just it is an incredibly morbid sight.
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It also happens to be the same day that Grant will capture
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Vicksburg and the the Mississippi River will roll on
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vex to the sea. And it's one of the reasons why
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people who study the the Civil War kind of point to this these
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days, the the Battle of Gettysburg, Battle of Vicksburg
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as really the high tide of the Confederacy.
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From this point forward, it's all downhill for them.
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The staggering human cost, though, is becoming an issue
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people. After two years of war, people,
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particularly in the North, led by newspapers and led by
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Copperhead Democrats and even to a lesser degree, Regular
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Democrats, are starting to question whether or not this
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cost is worth this effort. Now, the previous fall, of
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course, Lincoln had issued the Emancipation Proclamation, but
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there's still a debate. What exactly are we fighting
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for? We're two years into this war,
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Bill, and nobody can really answer that question yet.
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What are we fighting for? What is this war by?
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Why am I sacrificing my children, my husband's, my sons,
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my brothers? What is this all about?
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After the Battle of Gettysburg, there is an idea that is
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presented which is to bury all the Union troops in in one big
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cemetery. And in doing so, things are set
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in motion that are going to literally define the answers to
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all of those questions. And it was this day in November
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19th of 1863 that the dedication ceremony of that cemetery would
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be help. Dave Bowman with a look at
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Gettysburg as we continue. A look at Thanksgiving with Dave
10:54
this weekend on the Florida Round table.
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That happens three times this weekend on WMNB.
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Looking forward to that as well. And we're back in moments.
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It's a take on history you won't find anywhere else.
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Dave does history on Bill Nick live.
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The McPherson Financial Group is our sponsor of the program, and
11:14
Dave's got us in Gettysburg. The battle is done.
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They're burying the dead and thinking about a National
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Cemetery. What are we doing here, Dave?
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So do we got a fellow by the name of David.
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Willis, that button posture. I don't hear you.
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Now you're back. Sorry.
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We got a guy by the name of David Wills.
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He is a local attorney and a prominent citizen in Gettysburg.
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And Long story short, he sees the need for a for a cemetery.
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Now, the term National Cemetery didn't exist yet, but since the
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body, the bodies after the battle were hastily buried,
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there were makeshift graves everywhere, all over the field.
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Most of them, many of them were unidentified burial sites, were
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shallow, poorly marked, so they were vulnerable to the elements.
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And let's just call them scavengers, you know, animals.
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It deeply troubled him, and he wanted to make sure that this
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incredible sacrifice was properly recognized.
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And he envisioned this cemetery as more than just a burial
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ground. It would be a place of honor and
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remembrance and lasting tribute to the soldiers who gave their
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lives there. To preserve the Union, he hired
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a landscape, paid for landscape architect, paid for himself to
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design the grounds. And sure, the cemetery would
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reflect the solemnity and the significance of its purpose.
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It's layout, emphasize symmetry and order.
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The graves, if you've ever been there, like most national
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cemeteries, semicircular, they radiate out from a central
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point. But here's the thing.
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Willis wanted this cemetery to be properly dedicated.
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And in doing so, he wanted it to be a very solemn and very
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important occasion. And so he thought for a bit and
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he thought, well, how do we do this?
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Well, it's 1863. So what you want to have is a
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speaker. You want to have someone who can
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really put into words what this means.
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And so as he's looking around the country, he settles on an
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orator by the name of Edward. Edward, who is one of the most
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renowned orators of his time. He wants him to deliver the
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keynote address, which will be hopefully, a resounding success
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in moving people to understand why this place is so important.
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Everett is well known. He's very well spoken,
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obviously, and in an era when that was considered to be the
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greatest of skills oration, there is literally no one in the
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country who can hold a candle to Edward Everett.
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But of course, you may or may not even know his name today
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because, well, things aren't going to work out quite the way
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he wants them to. Everett is going to prepare a
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speech. He accepts the invitation.
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He is going to give a keynote address for the ages.
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Wills in in retrospect says, hey, you know what, I guess we
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better invite that President Abraham Lincoln and we better
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say to him because we don't want him to interrupt ever too much.
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So let's say to him that, you know, a few appropriate remarks.
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That's all we we want you to be there, but just make a few
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appropriate remarks. Ever will be the mainstage and
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can you be there? And Lincoln, realizing that he
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has to go, accepts the invitation and off they had to
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meet at the cemetery in Gettysburg.
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Dave Lincoln has agreed to go there.
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Does he have? I guess he has a clue.
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He's not the featured speaker then.
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Oh yeah, yeah, he knows. Thus, he he understands that his
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role is secondary few and appropriate.
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And this is not really all that surprising at the time.
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His reputation as a speaker is not what we think of him today.
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We think of Lincoln today as being one of the most eloquent,
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one of the most profound speakers in our history.
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He wasn't seen that way. Much like much like we think of
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Paul in the Bible as being this very powerful, you know, Speaker
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and stuff like that. And Paul himself says, no, I
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wasn't. It's short and squeaky and
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nobody liked me. Lincoln's the same way.
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Lincoln is a polarizing figure. The Civil War has left the
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nation deeply divided, and though his leadership is
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respected, he still has his distractors, like the
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Copperheads. The Copperheads are northern
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Democrats who oppose the war. They want to make peace with the
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Southern Confederacy and they are referred to.
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It's a derogatory term. A copperhead is a snake, a snake
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that hides in plain sight and strikes from the inside.
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So they're seen as, you know, traitors almost in some ways.
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Now, there are other Democrats who oppose the war, but they are
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known as peace Democrats. And it gets complicated.
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But Lincoln looks at this opportunity, and there are a lot
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of myths about how he created the speech.
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He didn't write it on an envelope.
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He didn't necessarily write it on the train.
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He probably was working on it on the train.
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But Lincoln was known for his meticulousness in how he
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prepared words and phrases and how he practiced his speeches.
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He tested the phrases aloud. How do they?
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How do they sound? And he looked at this
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opportunity to, as we said before, answer that question,
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Why are we fighting this war? He drew inspiration from the
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Declaration of Independence. He drew it from the Bible.
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He drew it from Shakespeare, and he linked this present struggle
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in 1863 to the very principles that founded the country in
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1776. He wanted to honor that
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sacrifice of the fallen that were there and he wanted to
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reaffirm the union's commitment to democracy, but more than just
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democracy to liberty, which again, I've explained on
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numerous occasions as a different meaning than freedom.
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The day of the address, November 619th, 1863.
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Today was a very somber atmosphere, very large crowd and
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Edward Everett spoke Bill for two hours.
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I don't know about you, but I can't sit through a 2 hour
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speech. I don't care who's giving it.
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It could be anybody, but I, I, I couldn't do it.
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And when his speech was done, there was roaring approval of
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it. There was a great deal of, you
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know, hey, good job. You've captured the moment and
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an almost an afterthought of the event.
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And now President Lincoln will deliver a few brief remarks,
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which had to be, you know, when people hear that word brief,
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they kind of go, this will be over soon.
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Yeah, exactly. Almost like that guy that asks
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questions at the end of the meeting, you know, are we, are
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we going to get? There's always one.
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There's always that 1. And in those 272 words, it's all
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it is. Those 272 words that Abraham
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Lincoln will deliver on this day in 1863, starting with that
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phrase, 4 score. And seven years ago, Lincoln
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will finish that speech. And the audience is almost
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stunned. In a way, their response is kind
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of golf clap. They're not really sure what
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they've just heard. They're not really sure how to
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react yet. But believe me, Edward, Edward
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knows that nobody's going to remember a single word of his
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two hour speech. And he knows that everybody is
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going to remember the Gettysburg Address.
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And we take a continuing look with more of Dave Does history
19:40
as we continue this Tuesday on Bill Mick live in moments right
19:43
here on 92.7 FM WMMB. And as I told you, Dave Bowman
19:49
with us with a special Dave Does History on the Florida
19:52
Roundtable this weekend as we take a look at the mother of
19:56
modern day Thanksgivings, which was a very interesting hour.
19:59
You'll enjoy it this weekend on the Florida Round table.
20:02
The McPherson Financial Group bringing you the hour you want
20:05
to weigh in on this edition of Dave Does History, 321-768-1240.
20:11
So the Gettysburg Address has been delivered.
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What's the reaction as folks are hearing and learning of it?
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Those who weren't there, Dave. Lincoln, of course, Lincoln is
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morose in some ways. He feels like he kind of failed
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the the reaction to it at the speech is very subdued.
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But then again, these people have been standing here for two,
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more than two hours listening to Edward Everett go on and on.
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And it really doesn't matter how into something you are, at the
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end of two hours, you're ready to go home.
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You you don't want to, you don't want to stand there anymore.
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And so that's not really set surprising in the North.
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Some of the newspapers were very praiseful of Lincoln's speech.
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They liked its moral clarity, its ability to encapsulate the
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ideals of the unions, causing just 272 words.
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The For many union supporters, there was this emphasis on
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equality that resonates strongly with those who view the war as a
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struggle to fulfill the promises of the Declaration of
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Independence. There are numerous anecdotal
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stories of Union soldiers talking with Lincoln and quoting
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that speech, particularly black soldiers who were so moved by
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this and so relieved that the definition for the war had
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finally been established. The South, of course, was a lot
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less endearing towards it. Southern newspapers, the kind of
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made fun of him. One of them, the Richmond
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Examiner, mocked his address as a collection of quote, silly
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remarks that reveal his inadequacy as a leader.
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It was more than just disdain for Lincoln, of course.
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It highlighted the deep ideological chasm between the
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Union and Confederacy. And his invocation of equality
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and democracy really struck at the heart of the justification
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for secession and slavery. And that further alienated
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perhaps many in the South. But it fell to Edward Everett to
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actually explain to Lincoln himself why his speech was so
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remarkable. Despite his own reputation as a
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master orator, Everett was absolutely magnanimous in his
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acknowledgement of what Lincoln had said.
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The next day he wrote to Lincoln these words, saying, quote, I
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should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as
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near to the central idea of the occasion in two hours as you did
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in just two minutes. And at that point, I think
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Lincoln would have realized how important this moment had
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become. In the summer of 2023, as we
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left Baltimore and went to Fairfax, VA, the next day, we
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got on the tram and we went to downtown Washington, DC to the
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Mall. We began walking the Mall.
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We started at the Washington Monument, which is the place
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that I, I used to be stationed in Washington, DC.
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And I've never been up the Washington Monument because
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every time I've been there, it's been closed, including July
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25th, 2023 and all the way there and it's closed.
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So we started walking around the mall.
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And of course, if you're familiar at all with it, you
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know that at the far end stands the Lincoln Memorial with the
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reflecting pools, and it looks so far away.
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We started that walk. We started the walk, and we're
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moving down this pathway past the past, the reflecting pool.
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And Ben says to me, there's just no way to appreciate how large
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this is without coming here. And I said to him, that's why we
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come here and wait till you get where we're going.
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We went all the way to the end to the Lincoln Memorial.
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And when we got there, my wife, whom I loved dearly, didn't
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really want to climb the steps. I didn't really want to either.
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But up we went to the very top entrance way there to the
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Lincoln Memorial. This is the place where Martin
24:27
Luther King stood to deliver his speech.
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And Ben wanted to see that. He turned around and took a
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photograph. Looking back that same way.
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If you go to the Lincoln Memorial and you walk in the
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front, you turn to the left, there's a large granite wall.
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And on that wall are inscribed the words of the Gettysburg
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Address, the place where we had stood less than 24 hours before,
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telling that story once again. And in a moment that kind of
24:58
took me by surprise, Ben walked over to that wall.
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And he climbed up on one of the little steps that's in front of
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it. And he reached up with his hand,
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and he put his hand on the letters.
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And I realized in that moment how history connects with the
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next generation. On and on and on.
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And on this day in night in 1863, Abraham Lincoln delivered
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the Gettysburg Address. And on a July day in 2023, my
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son put his hands on those words.
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And that challenge that is written right there where his
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hands are still applies today. To preserve the government of
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the people, by the people, for the people, for all generations
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to come. Dave Bowman with us when Dave
25:53
does history and the Gettysburg Address in front of us and that
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entire saga. I saw the picture, Dave, that
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you took a bin reaching up, touching those words of the
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Gettysburg Address. How was he when he left there?
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What was it like for him when you guys were walking away and
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talking about what's been going on?
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While he was in the monument, he was very, I don't know about
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moved. He was very interested in it.
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He was fascinated by the statue. Everybody is.
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And of course he, he saw those words and he wanted to go see
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them up close and to put his hands on him.
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I'm, I'm a very tactile person myself when it comes to history.
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I love to touch things that are historical.
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And then. So for me, that moment was
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pretty important. After we left, he was very
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tired, so he was kind of grumpy until we got some lunch.
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So we had to find a pizza truck on the mall so.
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I was like me, if you get the chance and during your travels,
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I know you're hopefully heading to the East Coast next summer
27:04
and you find a way to manage your way through Charleston, WV
27:09
on the South Lawn of the state capitol.
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There's a Lincoln statue there called Lincoln Walks at
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Midnight. Beautiful piece and having to do
27:23
with the founding of my homeland and breaking away from the state
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of Virginia and Lincoln and everything he went through at
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that point. And there's a Cultural Center
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next door to the Capitol that couple of trips back.
27:37
My sister and I went through it and we were there an hour and a
27:42
half. Could have spent 4 hours there
27:44
if we wanted to take our time with everything.
27:47
And it's very well done. A lot of the history and and it
27:49
goes from free American civilization there up through a
27:56
pretty modern era fairly recently.
27:59
That Cultural Center worth the day if you can do that.
28:03
And I would start it with that Lincoln walks at midnight
28:07
statue. It's amazing.
28:09
It is remarkable how many monuments and exhibits there are
28:13
of Lincoln across the country. I mean, I-80 through Wyoming has
28:19
a Lincoln Memorial. I mean, it's, it's a, it's kind
28:22
of a mock up of the the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC.
28:26
And you wonder, given everything that had happened to that
28:31
moment, where, where this address, the Gettysburg Address
28:33
really puts the stamp on why are we fight?
28:37
You know, during World War 2 and World War One, there were a lot
28:41
of propaganda efforts in the United States and, and I don't
28:43
use the term pejoratively, they called them this to influence
28:48
Americans. Why are we fighting?
28:50
There were films in in the Second World War, John Ford, Why
28:53
are we fighting? We didn't have that in the Civil
28:56
War. And it's this moment, these 272
29:01
words that used to be required memorization when I was in
29:06
school. I don't know if they even talk
29:07
about it anymore, but it's these 272 words that define the
29:12
purpose of this, not just this conflict, but what we're what
29:17
are we going to do going forward?
29:18
How are we going to maintain this government of, by, and for
29:21
the people? And it's Lincoln's commitment to
29:24
liberty and his understanding that these people here did not
29:29
die in vain. They died for a purpose that
29:33
reminds us that we still have to go forward.
29:36
We still, we still have to complete that promise that was
29:39
made July 4th, 1776. We have a responsibility to
29:45
continue that forward. And I think even today,
29:48
Lincoln's words resonate in that same way.
29:54
I don't disagree for those who are paying attention and and pay
30:00
attention to history as you do and as you share with this
30:02
audience on a regular basis. And there's a lot of value to
30:06
pull from all of those lessons we talked about.
30:11
I'd like to see us get more people to pay attention to.
30:14
I think so. I, I intentionally today did not
30:17
read the words to you because I want you to go look at those
30:22
words, 272 words, two minutes of reading.
30:26
And I'm hoping that it'll be two minutes of reading today and a
30:29
whole lot of time of contemplating what this means to
30:33
us today. And that's my challenge to you
30:36
today is don't just don't just take my word for it.
30:39
Don't take Edward Everett's words for it.
30:40
Go read it for yourself if you haven't.
30:42
You might be surprised by what you find.
30:45
Josh, it's it's been since my school days that I would have
30:48
read. So that's that's a worthy
30:50
challenge. Nothing wrong with that at all.
30:52
I just put it on my personal Facebook page.
30:54
If you want to go read it there, you don't want to go look it up,
30:56
it's there. Easy way to find it.
30:58
So that would be good. Absolutely.
31:00
And what about application today by these newly elected and
31:06
appointed folks that I would like to think there dug in on it
31:09
as well. Quick phone call while we have
31:11
the opportunity to line one. You're on Bill make live.
31:13
Good morning. Good morning.
31:17
Did did Abraham Lincoln actually say that the war was fought to
31:21
protect democracy? Not in those specific words, no.
31:29
OK. Thank you.
31:31
All right, Mario, thanks for being here.
31:33
But when he says up by and for the people, yeah.
31:38
Yeah. I'm not sure where we're going
31:40
with that, but OK, It's, it's an amazing speech.
31:45
It's an amazing piece of work and literature, and it's an
31:49
incredible experience. Like I said, when I went there
31:51
in 1991, Gettysburg and Washington, DC, because I was
31:54
stationed there, then you, you start to feel those connections.
31:59
And I can tell you that my 1991 trip to Gettysburg was full of
32:03
those kinds of connections. Someday I'll tell you those
32:06
stories, but the reality is this is one of those defining moments
32:11
in American history. And Abraham Lincoln, as
32:15
controversial as a figure as he is, and he still is today.
32:21
We would do well to read those words again.
32:27
Dave Bowman, always a pleasure. Appreciate the lesson on the
32:32
Gettysburg Address and everything around it.
32:34
We'll be off next week because I'll be out of here for the
32:36
Thanksgiving holiday. We'll see you that first week of
32:39
December, my friend. We'll see you then.
32:44
Check out more stories from history@davedoeshistory.org.