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324: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill: Solving the Chronic Illness Puzzle with Dr. Paul Anderson · Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD

• 0:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go to podcast for the most cutting edge insights integrative and functional medicine.
• 0:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I'm your host, Dr. Jill and with each episode we dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation.
• 0:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Join me as I interview medical experts, world leaders, innovators of all types, bringing you the best to help you on your journey of optimal performance and longevity.
• 0:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Today's no different.
• 0:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We have the one and only Dr. Paul Anderson, who's been a mainstay in the integrative oncology world.
• 0:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You're going to learn some new things and interesting tips and points about integrative oncology and complex chronic illness.
• 0:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You won't want to miss this episode.
• 0:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Before we jump in, I just want to remind you about a couple things.
• 0:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: First of all, if you're looking for great products and services, you can get them all@drjillhealth.com I especially want to bring to mind some of our very favorite things.
• 0:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Today we're going to be talking about IV Vitamin C and I have a topical radiant C cream that's super popular for neck and face and antioxidant use.
• 0:59
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• 1:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So check this out.
• 1:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You can find that@drjillhealth.com among many other Dr. Jill beauty products.
• 1:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Also, if you didn't know, we are accepting new patients at Flatiron Functional Medicine, my clinical practice in Louisville, Colorado.
• 1:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I have two incredible mid levels, a PA and a nurse practitioner and they are fantastic and we work together in all the cases.
• 1:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So if you're interested in having a call, a quick 10 minute intro or just scheduling an appointment, give us a call at 303-993-7910 or visit our website for more information.
• 1:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: That's J carnahan.com okay, let me introduce Dr. Paul Anderson.
• 1:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Dr. Anderson is a recognized educator and clinician and integrative and naturopathic medicine with a focus on complex chronic illness and cancer.
• 1:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: In addition to three decades clinical experience, he was also head of the interventional arm of a US NIH funded human research trial using IV and integrative therapies in cancer patients.
• 1:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: He had founded the Advanced Medical Therapies in Seattle, Washington, a clinic focused on cancer and chronic diseases and now focuses his time on collaboration in medical schools, clinics and hospitals.
• 2:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Just known among us as one of our great teachers and leaders, he's co authored a book, Outside the Box, Cancer Therapies and Just a Wealth of Knowledge.
• 2:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So let's join Dr. Paul Anderson today for the episode of Resiliency Radio.
• 2:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Dr. Paul Anderson, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on Resiliency Radio.
• 2:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I told you before we started, and this is a truth, so I'm going to say it publicly.
• 2:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: In our small world of function medicine, first of all, we have the small circle, and we all know each other.
• 2:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And there are probably less than 2 handfuls of people that I have the deepest respect for as far as really the knowledge base and the ability to navigate the world of super complex chronic patients.
• 2:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And you are among them 100% and just someone I've always admired.
• 2:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And you're out there teaching, doing your own conference.
• 2:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: If you guys are listening, you're professional, at the end of the show, you're going to hear about, you know, what Dr. Paul is doing.
• 2:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But in the world out here, you've really not only made a name for yourself, but you're someone that I deeply respect and admire.
• 3:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And today, our listeners are going to be in for a big treat because we're going to dive into how you think about the patient, how you approach them.
• 3:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We're going to talk about IV therapies and really anything else that comes up to the table.
• 3:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So welcome to the show.
• 3:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Thank you so much.
• 3:17
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I'm glad to be here.
• 3:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You're welcome.
• 3:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So I always like to start with the story behind the great, you know, great thinker, great physician, great creative.
• 3:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I put that in there because I think unless we're curious and creative, that's why we get where we are, right?
• 3:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Like, because we're thinking, okay, what else am I missing?
• 3:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What else is possible?
• 3:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So tell us just your framework as far as first, your story.
• 3:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: How did you get into medicine?
• 3:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then how did you get into this part and field of medicine?
• 3:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, it's a. I'll give the shortest version I can.
• 3:49
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I, in a sense, I kind of grew up in and around medicine.
• 3:55
  Dr. Paul Anderson: My father was a physician and mom was a nurse.
• 3:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And they're.
• 4:01
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They've passed away because they'd be 100 and something.
• 4:04
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But they were, you know, sort of the, the post World War II medical era.
• 4:12
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so the majority of people that I knew were other physicians.
• 4:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, you know, growing up all, you know, many of the adults.
• 4:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So it kind of, that was just around.
• 4:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: What sort of evolved, though, was I started working in laboratory settings in the later 1970s, around 76.
• 4:38
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I kept thinking, I, you know, I'm gonna go and finish medical school.
• 4:45
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then I kept getting caught with this thought that, you know, you're probably going to get in trouble.
• 4:51
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Because medicine, even back in, you know, let's say the early 80s, was becoming more, you know, formulaic and more protocol driven and all of that.
• 5:02
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, you know, I saw that although, you know, my dad later kind of came around to seeing what I was doing is a good thing.
• 5:11
  Dr. Paul Anderson: He was very comfortable with that.
• 5:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, he.
• 5:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: He kind of liked doing, you know, the.
• 5:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I guess I called it the same thing over and over.
• 5:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So, you know, so that was sort of the backdrop.
• 5:23
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But, you know, working in.
• 5:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: In labs of different kind is a really good education for a lot of things.
• 5:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then what really happened was when we have.
• 5:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: My wife and I have five adult children, so when they.
• 5:38
  Dr. Paul Anderson: When the older two were little, I started to take them at my mother's recommendation, who was the nurse to a naturopathic physician, because they had, you know, the chronic revolving door of ear infections and all that.
• 5:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And they were just little, you know, but it's like, you know, how many rounds of antibiotics can we put through the kids?
• 6:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So my mom finally said, look, just.
• 6:04
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Just talk to that.
• 6:05
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I kind of.
• 6:06
  Dr. Paul Anderson: At that time, I thought, oh, brother, you know, and whatever.
• 6:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I meet.
• 6:11
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I meet this doctor, and I was very impressed, you know, just his knowledge and his sort of way of thinking about things and all that.
• 6:21
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And very short order, you know, the.
• 6:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: My young children stopped having to be on antibiotics all the time and all of that.
• 6:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So then I thought, well, you know, I've never.
• 6:32
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I had a lot of allergies and a lot of chronic other stuff, and I thought, well, maybe I'll try and see him.
• 6:37
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So through the process of that, I thought, well, I could be this kind of doctor, you know, because it seems like you have a lot more creativity involved in what you're doing.
• 6:46
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So that's kind of the short version, what I will tell anyone considering it, you know, like.
• 6:54
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And by that time, I own my own lab and everything.
• 6:56
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I sold my lab and I went and finished medical school.
• 7:01
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But to be a naturopathic physician, as advice to anybody, don't wait till you have little children to do this.
• 7:09
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's.
• 7:09
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, it was.
• 7:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: My wife and I are still married, but it was a rough number of years.
• 7:15
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But one of the things I think that was, I think helpful is for the two clinical years, I did all of the naturopathic medical school program.
• 7:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then because I knew so many people in the allopathic world, I did two years, essentially a rotating internship in allopathic settings and essentially was treated just like everybody else there.
• 7:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so by the time I graduated, I felt really like, in personal opinion, I felt I had this well rounded, you know, kind of training and I kind of.
• 7:53
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I really started out thinking I would just like to be a family doctor and kind of, you know, had a kind of country practice sort of a thing.
• 8:02
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But what happened within, I don't know, probably three months to six months of opening is I started to get these very chronically ill patients or people with cancer, you know, or something that I never really thought I'd get a lot of that coming in.
• 8:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And part of it was just there weren't that many doctors like me around.
• 8:22
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So, you know, it was an oddity.
• 8:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so people say, well, at least try them out.
• 8:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so very quickly I went from, you know, just wanting to kind of have this family practice to some family practice and then just more and more complicated chronic illness patients or cancer patients.
• 8:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so the rest of my practice all these decades has really been about half advanced cancer and half really advanced chronically ill folks.
• 8:55
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And as you know, the learning curve is very steep with those because we're, you know, even coming with this great mix of training I had and all that.
• 9:04
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You're not really taught how to think about a very more than two steps of complexity.
• 9:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Right.
• 9:11
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So they taught me an awful lot.
• 9:17
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, that's how.
• 9:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So that's how I got here.
• 9:19
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 9:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Really interesting, because first of all, you're so right.
• 9:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You almost have to be not only brave, but curious in the field that we're in, because.
• 9:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 9:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I remember I trained family medicine as well.
• 9:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then we're coming right out.
• 9:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I did one day we kind of like cash integrative.
• 9:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Thought I was just going to dabble a little bit.
• 9:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then soon it was like, it was so full and it.
• 9:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Within a year, it shifted everybody one of those appointments.
• 9:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And what it was you get to know the patient deeply.
• 9:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You're curious enough to say, huh, that doesn't make sense, but I'll help you figure it out.
• 9:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 9:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And so many doctors, the difference in conventional medicine, not all of our colleagues, but some of them, it's like, well, if I didn't learn it in medical school, it's not true.
• 9:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And so they dismissed the patient, whereas you or I came in with this open mind.
• 9:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: At least I have, even to this day, every day I have.
• 10:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Patients were like, huh, that's so fascinating.
• 10:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Let's figure out what's going on or let's try this or.
• 10:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So you have to be willing to be curious, be Creative and within the safety realm of you, what's acceptable and what might be very low risk or whatever.
• 10:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We try things sometimes and then we're like wow, that worked.
• 10:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then you kind of build a practice on and then we talk as colleagues and realize, oh, we're all seeing these patterns and these things.
• 10:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So I want to start with what you mentioned, which is complex chronic illness and cancer.
• 10:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I feel like there's a lot of things again, I never want to bash conventional medicine because that's where I came from and I love this that even you had in your story because I'm the same like how do we actually bring more of those folks who aren't open minded to see that there value in this, looking at it with a bigger scope, with a bigger lens.
• 10:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But what would you say?
• 10:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Let's start with this.
• 10:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What would you say that conventional medicine is really missing with complex chronic patients and cancer?
• 10:56
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, I think, and you know, the end, there's a lot of overlap in, you know, the further you get into either a complex chronic illness case or a late stage cancer case.
• 11:06
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I think that, and again it's, I personally, I don't think it's like somebody, you know, sat down and said we don't want to do this.
• 11:15
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I think the system, you know, trains you to be very good at recognizing acute problems and life threatening problems.
• 11:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And what I would tell patients is, you know, we got this one problem, we can see we have one treatment for it or maybe a choice of 2 or 3 and we apply them and you get better.
• 11:38
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Like that's the acute care model and that's really what, you know, the allopathic world is great at.
• 11:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Like it's perfect for that.
• 11:47
  Dr. Paul Anderson: What the, you know, when the patients would come in and they come in with these chronic issues and I'm trying to say there's a different sort of world view going on is, you know, because a lot as you know, we all know you can go to your primary care or whoever you know is doing it, or even a couple of specialists and they'll all say, well, you know, I, I agree you don't feel well, but your labs look good and you seem okay.
• 12:12
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So we, you know, we're not sure what it is.
• 12:15
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so I would tell patients, you know, that kind of medicine is good at a big above the water line, you know, problem, it's sticking up, we can see it on your labs or whatever.
• 12:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, chronic illness often is you have 2, 3, 4, 5 or 10 smaller things.
• 12:32
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But if you stack them up, they're a real big problem, but they're not going to kill you tomorrow.
• 12:39
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So they don't really come up above the waterline.
• 12:42
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so I, you know, kind of explained to the patients that it's not that one is bad or the other.
• 12:48
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's all just the way we use our tools.
• 12:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But in our case, where you've.
• 12:53
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You've had the big bad things screened out and you're still sick and you're getting sicker, we have to look in lots more places and look for either smaller or stealthier problems that nobody's looking for, which could be, you know, toxicities like mycotoxins and other biotoxins or chronic infections or, you know, the litany of things that we look for.
• 13:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And that's the place, I think, where the two ways of looking at it diverge is in, you know, when I train students, I'll tell them, you know, medicine, acute care medicine is built for the average middle of the bell curve healthy person who has a problem.
• 13:37
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We have people that are on the margins of the bell curve who have lots of problems.
• 13:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They don't fit that model.
• 13:43
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so we have to look in other places that be the last place you looked with a healthy person.
• 13:49
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, and I've even, you know, talked, you know, not always successfully, but I've even done.
• 13:55
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Talked to some of our colleagues and specialists and things and just said, you know, it's just a.
• 13:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We're looking at two ends of the same problem just using kind of a different way of assessing.
• 14:04
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So in.
• 14:06
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, and when it comes to that even crosses over into, you know, advanced cancer, where you're looking at very unlikely that'll be cured.
• 14:14
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But we can, we want to be as healthy as we can.
• 14:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We want good quality of life.
• 14:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Same thing.
• 14:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You're looking at a lot of pieces that go together to make your quality of life better.
• 14:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And a lot of times they're the same pieces really as a chronic illness patient would have.
• 14:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So that's kind of how I see that.
• 14:31
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And that's what I try and language to patients so they get that.
• 14:34
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's not a either or thing.
• 14:36
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's just that tool's great if you break your arm.
• 14:39
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, it's great if you have, you know, some raging infection that we all would pick up.
• 14:46
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's just not great if you have some other thing going on that they don't even look for.
• 14:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Hey, guys.
• 14:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Just interrupting the show for a quick moment to remind you if you are looking for a functional Medicine practitioner.
• 14:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We are taking new patients at Flatiron Functional Medicine, my clinical practice in Louisville, Colorado.
• 15:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You can call 303-993-7910 to make an appointment or ask questions.
• 15:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You can also visit our website for more information.
• 15:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: That's jillcarnahan.com.
• 15:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Okay, let's get back to our show with Dr. Paul Anderson.
• 15:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow, that's a really great frame.
• 15:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I always think of, like, in medical school or Occam's razor and kind of like this.
• 15:21
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 15:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Thing.
• 15:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 15:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Which in our complex chronic field, and especially with cancer patients, it's exactly the opposite.
• 15:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: There's a whole bunch of terrain.
• 15:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I would say more of, like, my practice is toxic load and infectious, creating immune dysfunction and all of that.
• 15:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So let's dive just a little bit into themes, because what you were just saying is so relevant in the fact that whether it's complex chronic autoimmune disease, neurological dysfunction, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, als, or cancer, those three things, number one, environmental toxicity is a huge hidden cause.
• 15:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But there's also mitochondria, immune inflammation.
• 15:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: If you were to have someone walk in with, say, a neurodegenerative disease or cancer or a chronic disease of another type, what are some of the common themes.
• 16:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Mitochondria, immune.
• 16:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: That you would kind of look through and start to assess them.
• 16:11
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, I think there's.
• 16:14
  Dr. Paul Anderson: As the years went on and the patients, you know, teach you more things as you know, and curiosity, as you said, is a huge part of it.
• 16:21
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You have.
• 16:22
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You have to be willing to look beyond your own knowledge.
• 16:26
  Dr. Paul Anderson: There.
• 16:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: There were.
• 16:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: There were sort of focal areas that I saw come up that was like, unless we really knock it out of the park early with a chronic case, we should probably look at all of these areas and just, you know, make sure there's not contributing.
• 16:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Because I do think one of the reasons that all toxicities, including mycotoxins and the other biotoxins, come up so much and chronic infections is that.
• 16:54
  Dr. Paul Anderson: That they're permissive of one another.
• 16:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so toxicity derails your immune function in a way that then bugs that wouldn't normally be a problem become a huge problem for you know, and again, you know, personal.
• 17:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Go to their primary care, and they'll say, well, you know, everyone's exposed to those infections.
• 17:15
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 17:15
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But not everyone's immune system is so messed up, you know, because of the toxicity.
• 17:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I think as far as places to look, those two are, you have to look there.
• 17:26
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Right.
• 17:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: The places, I think, supporting, though, because if we Think about like what a chronic illness does to us, let's say.
• 17:36
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And here's the thing, and I think why in chronic infections and toxicity are always like butting heads is each one can make us more sensitive to the other, you know, and then so we get a little bit more toxicity.
• 17:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: The, the bugs bother us more and then they grow more and then toxicity bother, you know, the whole thing.
• 17:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But the other areas that then are like, okay, those are probably focal, you know, and I, you know, if you were making like a little triangle, like mitochondrial dysfunction kind of is universal with the chronic ill folks, right?
• 18:12
  Dr. Paul Anderson: That's sort of like a triangle.
• 18:14
  Dr. Paul Anderson: The other thing, so that I'll tell patients is our bodies try to not allow us to get sick as long as they can.
• 18:21
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So we've been working on a chronic illness probably longer than we know.
• 18:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so the places that get beat up, that are trying to respond are our endocrine system.
• 18:32
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And if we don't look at the endocrine picture and really all of it and, you know, balance out what is not right there, you don't have enough power in your system to heal the mitochondria or fight back against infections or detox or anything.
• 18:49
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Because when you get your immune system off balance and then whatever comes to fruition from that initially, your body uses your endocrine system to say, no, we're not going to do that.
• 19:01
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Well, that feedback loop is made for acute problems.
• 19:06
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's not made the problem every day, right.
• 19:09
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So eventually one or all of your hormones will not be working also.
• 19:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So if, you know, so you got to do something with the hormonal picture.
• 19:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I'll tell patients, look, as we get you better from these other things, this hormone stuff will probably go away.
• 19:23
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's not like a primary endocrinopathy, most of them anyway, so that's a big thing.
• 19:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Then the other thing that gets trashed is your whole digestive and absorptive system, which, you know, every year we know more about how important that is, which has always, you know, been a big deal.
• 19:40
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But.
• 19:40
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But that's a big deal because I'll usually tell patients that's just.
• 19:45
  Dr. Paul Anderson: That's more something we need to work chronically on because it's gonna, it's where everything we give you goes through pretty much.
• 19:52
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We have to rehab it, but gets a lot of traffic.
• 19:56
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So we got to rehab that over time.
• 19:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: That's not like a one and done thing.
• 20:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 20:01
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then the others, you know, as far as, you know, support obviously the psychosocial sort of mil, you the person is in.
• 20:09
  Dr. Paul Anderson: A lot of chronically ill people are abused and gaslit and, or just live in a horrible situation.
• 20:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, some people have great support, others not so much.
• 20:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So that's always an area.
• 20:22
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You have to be careful.
• 20:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: The structural things, physical and structural things can get really, you know, out of whack.
• 20:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then the other thing that I probably say, you know, in all these decades, about halfway through became more apparent to me.
• 20:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I think the two things that, because of tools, one was resistance to treatment.
• 20:49
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So especially in the infectious arena, some of that comes from toxicity.
• 20:54
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So treating the toxicity helps with resistance.
• 20:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But also the longer we keep these inappropriate bugs around, the more we have biofilms and other, you know, other resistance thing because they would rather live happily in our body than not, you know, and so dealing with those things become very important.
• 21:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, and I also think, you know, we know a lot more.
• 21:17
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I mean, it's not like we didn't used to know about mitochondria, but we know a lot more about how they go wrong now.
• 21:22
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Right.
• 21:23
  Dr. Paul Anderson: The other thing I think that's a wonderful tool moving forward is we can look at nutrigenomics now and see individual like fingerprints of, you know, where is your constitution just not going to be as strong as your neighbors.
• 21:38
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I remember before we had those tools, you kind of would look at someone and say there's something about them that just doesn't.
• 21:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: These areas don't operate as good.
• 21:48
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Now some of that we can see, you know, using a good nutrigenomic tool and, you know, and saying, oh, well, that's because these things aren't.
• 21:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You inherited some things that don't work here, you know, so that's kind of the way I do it.
• 22:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But I, I think, you know, you got your big things, which are usually toxicity infections and the resultant mitochondrial function and then you've got all of the things that just go, you know, out of balance from the process.
• 22:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What a great framework.
• 22:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I couldn't agree more.
• 22:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And just for a personal story, really quick for those.
• 22:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You maybe heard me say this before, but I know you'll relate and I'd love a comment.
• 22:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So I grew up on a farm, lots of atrazine in central Illinois, which is an endocrine disruptor.
• 22:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I was undiagnosed celiac up until my 30s and I was on a very glutenful diet.
• 22:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: When I was 14, I decided because in hindsight I had low zinc and hypochlorohydria.
• 22:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I Didn't like meat.
• 22:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So.
• 22:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And again, I didn't know any of this at that time.
• 22:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 22:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But I went on a vegetarian diet from 14 until I was diagnosed at 25 with cancer.
• 22:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I was not just a vegetarian, but I say a carboterian, it was like processed soy.
• 22:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I didn't know any better because no one in my family gave me any.
• 22:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I'm 14, right.
• 22:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So I'm trying to do this like the vegetarian diet because I didn't like meat.
• 22:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But then in hindsight, Hypochlorhydria, very low B12 because I had mthfr, mtr, fol, all the things related to metabolizing B12.
• 23:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I was probably like severely deficient in B12.
• 23:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So you throw in atrazine, you throw in the poor detox, poor glutathione snips, you pour in real, you pour really low B12 and really low zinc.
• 23:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then a horrible diet that I didn't know any better from.
• 23:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And celiac with a high gluten diet.
• 23:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Doesn't that kind of make sense that a 25 year old would, you know, get cancer at that age?
• 23:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And they.
• 23:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But I just like looking back, I'm like, oh, no wonder.
• 23:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Because the question that you always get and you'll get this too.
• 23:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Everybody at 25, the first thing everybody says, oh, did you have a genetic predisposition?
• 23:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Did you have BRCA?
• 23:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And 80% of young women do.
• 23:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Don't.
• 23:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Maybe more, might be 90%.
• 23:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And when we look at that's like this thing in the media of oh, this genetic thing.
• 23:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I didn't have that, but I had 101.
• 23:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You talk about that milieu underneath other things that together were way bigger than BRCA.
• 23:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right?
• 23:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 23:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, and then for 16 years you pushed on all of those with your lifestyle and.
• 24:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 24:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Not knowing, not knowing any better.
• 24:05
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, no, I mean that is a very common story.
• 24:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, I mean I, I either GI a young man or woman, you know, suddenly, you know, developing a cancer or somebody who's way too young to develop just seemingly an overnight chronic illness.
• 24:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, and it's not that, it's that there's this big lead up to.
• 24:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 24:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Which involves usually diet that, you know, either you did or didn't know better and all that.
• 24:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, and yeah.
• 24:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then if you put, you know, your genetics, which now you know about, you know, and back then couldn't really test them.
• 24:48
  Dr. Paul Anderson: If you put that together, you know, I'll tell patients like genetics, you know, or the Code.
• 24:55
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But everything that happens to us in our life, our lifestyle and how we react to things and what food we put in our body and what toxins we put in are the epigenetic triggers.
• 25:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 25:07
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So if I'm beating on those weaknesses all the time.
• 25:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 25:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Eventually something's going to break.
• 25:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You know that I needed zinc and I needed B12 and I know all that no gluten diet, it would have probably, who knows, it doesn't really matter.
• 25:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But I mean, in that framework.
• 25:21
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:22
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You can't, you can't go and do it now.
• 25:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But no, no, it's the best thing that ever happened because right now I know a lot about that whole thing.
• 25:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 25:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It's funny because I, I think that just relates to people out there that are wondering now I want to talk about iv.
• 25:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So we're going to do that next.
• 25:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But before you been seen more either quick growing cancers or cancers in younger people since the pandemic because I think our immune systems have definitely shifted.
• 25:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Any comments or theories on that?
• 25:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, short answer is yes.
• 25:56
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So even though my, because I do so much teaching, my private practice is small and it's still those two groups of people, either very chronically ill folks usually that I've managed for a long time, or it's often cancer patients where I'm working with other providers to kind of co.
• 26:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Manage care.
• 26:22
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I kind of get this sampling.
• 26:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But the other thing that I get because they communicate with so many providers is what's new in your clinic?
• 26:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, I get a lot of feedback from the higher volume clinic rare cancers in my personal experience, but also in the more global experience of the people I see in the integrative oncology world, rare and younger cancers since the pandemic have just gone, you know, crazy.
• 26:51
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I think, you know, we just completed a three day conference, some of which was about that.
• 27:01
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So it's fresh in my mind.
• 27:04
  Dr. Paul Anderson: One of the things as I've looked at research around.
• 27:09
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Okay.
• 27:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, it's.
• 27:11
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You'd have to have your head in the sand not to see in the years of the pandemic the cancer has really increased.
• 27:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It seems to be turning out in the research we have that just the presence of the spike protein in the amount we have.
• 27:28
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Okay, so I'll preface by saying there are other viruses that make spike protein.
• 27:33
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I know that we all know that.
• 27:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They just have never been around in the quantity.
• 27:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 27:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 27:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Like this is a different magnitude.
• 27:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Right.
• 27:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So just the presence of the Spike protein, though, is immune deregulating enough that it's on par with mycotoxins and other, you know, other immune derailers.
• 27:54
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And the other thing that really came out in the research that I was looking at as far as.
• 28:00
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Okay, we'll go down that trail of the spike protein itself is immune disturbing, let's say.
• 28:07
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Right.
• 28:07
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Immune imbalancing.
• 28:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And there's two pathways to getting spike protein.
• 28:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Some people have one or the other, some have both.
• 28:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So we could have native infection.
• 28:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And we certainly have had.
• 28:19
  Dr. Paul Anderson: The majority of humans at this point have had at least one exposure to Covid.
• 28:23
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Maybe not.
• 28:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But, but the majority.
• 28:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 28:26
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So there's that.
• 28:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then we also, you know, have the vaccine exposure create, you know, creating new spike protein for immunity.
• 28:36
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Well, either way we get the spike protein, it can be immune dysregulating, which is what we found.
• 28:43
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So rather than.
• 28:45
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Because at this point we can't undo, you know, having an infection or even you can undo getting a vaccine or anything.
• 28:53
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So at this point, what I had trying to have people focus on is we have this new immune derailing property in the immune system and universe, which is just as bad as any other toxicant that we might have been dealing with.
• 29:08
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And we have to think of it that way.
• 29:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's, it's in there.
• 29:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's not just some passing thing that, you know, because a lot of times people will equate SARS, COV2 and like, you know, influenza A or something like that.
• 29:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And it's like, well, they're both viral illnesses, but most people with influenza A, there's.
• 29:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: There's nothing left over afterwards.
• 29:31
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, now we have this problematic, you know, immune derailer.
• 29:39
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And one of the things I was doing at the conference just last week was trying to get the idea that this is just another thing we should screen for, especially in chronic illness folks, because it's another reason why their immune system's not going to work correctly.
• 29:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, and I think that's a big part of it.
• 30:00
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And you know, I personally, like, I.
• 30:04
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You.
• 30:05
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You might go a whole career and see one or two male breast cancer patients, for example.
• 30:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Example.
• 30:11
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I've seen one in my tiny practice.
• 30:15
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I have a friend with a bigger clinic and they've seen four in one year.
• 30:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: That's just really unheard of unless you were in some specialty center somewhere.
• 30:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So.
• 30:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And that's not the, you know, young colon cancer.
• 30:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And yet all of the things that we see.
• 30:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I, I think that the proximity to the COVID years is just, you can't ignore that, you know.
• 30:40
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So then you have to say, well, what is it that would have changed?
• 30:43
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And that probably one big thing is the spike derailing of the immune system.
• 30:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I couldn't agree more.
• 30:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Nowadays with those kind of stories where I just got infected or after the vaccine, some story of a proximity in time to a new neurological disorder, a new cancer, I'm screening the same thing and I find that whether it's reactivation of HHV6 or Epstein Barr, that's super common.
• 31:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Retaining of the spectrogen and macrophages, which can be measured as super common.
• 31:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then I'm doing just lately some of these autoimmune neuronal antibodies that are showing up in like Parkinsonian like patients after, you know, one of those insults.
• 31:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I'm sure you're seeing the same thing, but it's fascinating because I do the test to prove what I'm thinking.
• 31:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And the last one I just had was a Parkinsonian kind of patient who wasn't sure what she really had.
• 31:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And we saw anti neuronal antibodies, anti gliosa antibodies, anti actin antibodies, all which were the substantia nigra.
• 31:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So you're like, this story starts to become really clear that you're having an autoimmune disease induced neurological disorder which we're seeing more and more of too.
• 31:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So I want to jump to cancer and IVs because you are one of the world's experts in IV therapy, especially for these kinds of patients.
• 31:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I think you've been involved in NIH research and all kinds of amazing things.
• 31:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Tell us more about.
• 31:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Did you just as a naturopath, get trained and kind of start using these from the get go?
• 32:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What's your career been like?
• 32:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then what have you seen?
• 32:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And the power of IV therapies.
• 32:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Because that's one thing I really admire about you is medical doctors.
• 32:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We are not trained in nutritional IVs at all.
• 32:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So we have to go to someone like you to learn that.
• 32:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I feel like I know how they're used with someone like you, but I have myself haven't incorporated as much into my practice.
• 32:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: So tell us more.
• 32:23
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, so to answer the question, no.
• 32:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: When, when I was trained it was not part of the scope anywhere it was talked about, but it was actually illegal to do.
• 32:40
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So what really happened was there was a small kind of group of us who all were roughly from the same era, and we also came from other, you know, they're either were a nurse before, or other medical background stuff like that.
• 33:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so it made it a little easier for us mechanically to say, we can get nutrients.
• 33:09
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We know all about the nutrients.
• 33:11
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We mechanically know how to do the IV part.
• 33:14
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Let's do this, okay?
• 33:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And there were, you know, there were people doing it before, like Jonathan Wright and.
• 33:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And Al Gavian, other people way before them, but it was just a handful of people out there.
• 33:28
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So what really happened?
• 33:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I think.
• 33:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I think it's the same for any of us that you might talk to from those days.
• 33:36
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I. I literally recall one day seeing a patient come in and thinking they had.
• 33:43
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They were really chronically ill. And I just thought, there's no way I can give them anything orally that's even going to get absorbed.
• 33:51
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, like, they're so sick.
• 33:54
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They were being helped in by their family, and they were like, in their 30s, you know, they were that sick.
• 33:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I thought, I'll give them a series of IV nutrient therapy.
• 34:05
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And with the goal of getting them strong enough, then we could do other stuff.
• 34:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, you know, darn if it didn't work.
• 34:12
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so that started to happen.
• 34:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And at the same time, because, you know, again, not thinking it would happen, but also advanced cancer patients would come in and say, I've read about.
• 34:26
  Dr. Paul Anderson: There's no Internet then.
• 34:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So they.
• 34:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They had to read somewhere in a newsletter or something about intravenous vitamin C or chiculation or whatever.
• 34:34
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I would say, yeah, we.
• 34:36
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We can do that.
• 34:37
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You just, like, you can't tell anybody, right?
• 34:39
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Because I'm not supposed to be doing this, right?
• 34:43
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So there.
• 34:43
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And eventually it became legal and always.
• 34:47
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So a lot of it was especially because of the tenuous nature, you know, legally of it.
• 34:54
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I wouldn't have kept doing it if it wasn't showing, like, pretty remarkable results.
• 34:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Like, there's no way I'd put myself in that much jeopardy.
• 35:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So, so then what happened was the people who started teaching a lot about intravenous nutrient therapy really came kind of from that group who had been doing it before everybody else kind of in the shadows.
• 35:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so, like, if you look around, names that have been around a long time, that's probably where that came from.
• 35:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And now it's.
• 35:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Now it is taught in all of the schools, and it is, you know, more codified and all of that.
• 35:31
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I've taught in most, if not all of the naturopathic medical programs and now some allopathic programs about either just general intravenous nutrient therapy, how to do it safely, all of those things or how to apply it in cancer patients, which is a little bit different kind of angle on it.
• 35:53
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And as you mentioned, the National Institute of Health funded a study.
• 35:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I was full time at Bastyr University for five years and they funded a human trial there for integrative oncology.
• 36:07
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And the thing were supposed to be looking at was whatever they're doing for standard of care is what they're doing.
• 36:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: If we add integrative oncology, do they live longer?
• 36:17
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Basically was, you know, the thing then the next study was do they live longer with better quality of life?
• 36:22
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So that's a follow up and they were just getting this clinic going and they wanted to have an IV center and then they realized they didn't have anybody who had done IVs before there.
• 36:37
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so I wound up trading some of my teaching time for research time and we did that for five years.
• 36:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I was able to bring all of that sort of kind of hard won information.
• 36:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 36:49
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And we had a lot of really good discoveries.
• 36:53
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We, I think we move things forward safety wise and you know, outcome wise.
• 36:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So that's kind of where all that came from.
• 37:01
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then, you know, it's like then one day you wake up and people think that you know a lot about something, but it's just because you've been doing it a lot.
• 37:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: That's amazing.
• 37:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And obviously high dose vitamin C is in there.
• 37:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What are some of that?
• 37:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Maybe talk briefly about that and what you've seen as clinical outcomes.
• 37:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But what else is things that people might not.
• 37:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I've heard mistletoe.
• 37:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I don't know any much else about any of these things.
• 37:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But what would be like your top three to five IV therapies for someone with cancer?
• 37:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, I think for two reasons.
• 37:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: High dose vitamin C is probably the most common one reason.
• 37:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's just been around the longest since Linus Pauling and Cameron put out a paper and kind of, you know, ending in the 70s.
• 37:46
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So it's been in the zeitgeist for a long time.
• 37:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But the other reason, I think that it's still sort of, I think of it like a workhorse treatment is, can be very helpful on so many levels.
• 38:02
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And it's not always that it's maybe directly treating the cancer per se, but it's treating the rest of what I would tell my patients.
• 38:12
  Dr. Paul Anderson: The healthy cells you still have, which are more than the cancer and the healthier we keep them, the more resistant you are to tumor growth and the better Your quality of life is, etc.
• 38:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I certainly have had patients where they didn't have other options for whatever age or treatment resistance or whatever.
• 38:34
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And high dose vitamin C had kept them alive and well much longer than they should have.
• 38:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But the other thing is that, and this is something that we discovered during that research project, there's actually a large amount of research that opposes the normal thought in oncology, which is high dose vitamin C would inactivate chemotherapy.
• 38:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And the vast majority of research that has, and there's more than you would think that's been done with vitamin C and chemo is that it's actually supportive.
• 39:09
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So we have people getting, you know, like the oncologist, even the ones that didn't like me would, because we're in a research, we had to play nice with the university based folks at both places and the hardcore researchers and everything.
• 39:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So even the ones that were not terribly friendly after a few years would call and say, I don't, you know, I really don't believe in what you do, but your patients, the ones we share, just do better, you know, and it's like they, you know, they would open their mind a little bit, they do better.
• 39:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I, I don't like what you, one guy said, I don't like what you do.
• 39:47
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But I, I can't ignore that our patients that are, we co.
• 39:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Treat do better.
• 39:52
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then I, I had other people like the chief of oncology, once they started sending all this research, they emailed back and said I didn't even know there was any research.
• 40:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And they said, I have no problem referring people to you.
• 40:07
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You actually have research.
• 40:09
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So I think that the vitamin C, it's not only because it's well known, but also it really works in many situations.
• 40:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's not for everybody.
• 40:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Sometimes we back off and do lower doses and sometimes we just do other things.
• 40:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But it sort of covers a broader spectrum.
• 40:28
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So that's probably number one.
• 40:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Just because it's been around longest.
• 40:32
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You mentioned mistletoe.
• 40:34
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Mistletoe is an immunomodulator.
• 40:37
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's considered immune stimulating, but it really only does that for a short time and it's more immunomodulating.
• 40:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So a lot of people have maybe heard because it's, you know, with social media you hear about everything.
• 40:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Repurposed oncology drugs are all the rage right now or off label, you know, using, you know, I won't say any names whatever for cancer.
• 41:00
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Well, most of those, not all, but most repurposed oncology drugs are actually immunomodulators in addition to whatever else they do, like being anti parasitic or something.
• 41:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Turns out mistletoe is more of an immunomodulator, but it does give you a little boost in the fighting area.
• 41:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Two ways you can get it, either subcutaneous injection like a of insulin, or it can be done intravenously.
• 41:26
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Little bit different application, but again it's also very good with most standard of care therapies.
• 41:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's also associated with better quality of life, some outcomes and there's probably over 20 some thousand publish papers on it.
• 41:48
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, it just, it doesn't get a lot of play in North America, but it's used everywhere in the world.
• 41:53
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So mistletoe I find very useful all the way around.
• 41:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And if I had to pick a third, it would be split up and into.
• 42:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: There's many other things that can be done.
• 42:07
  Dr. Paul Anderson: One area would be what we would call more metabolic therapy support.
• 42:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So this is where you're really changing someone's diet to decrease the insulin load, put them in a metabolically flexible setting and you're doing IVs to kind of really support that.
• 42:26
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so that's something that we've done a lot with folks.
• 42:31
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Another part of number three would be the other oxidative therapies like ozone therapy, those sort of things.
• 42:39
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And which you know, people say, well, high dose vitamin C is also oxidative.
• 42:43
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah, but in a very different way than ozone is.
• 42:45
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Like ozone has one primary and a couple secondary things.
• 42:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It does.
• 42:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: High dose vitamin C has two primary things.
• 42:54
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It does then a bunch of secondary things.
• 42:56
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So very different.
• 42:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, and sometimes we use them, you know, in series.
• 43:01
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So ozone and metabolic support therapies.
• 43:05
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But really the third would be, you might consider it quality of life.
• 43:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But we go back to especially if you've had standard of care treatments done when you get done and you're looking at secondary prevention and you know, stay in remission or something.
• 43:22
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Your mitochondria are beat cancer therapies beat the mitochondria very good.
• 43:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's part of what they do.
• 43:32
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So a lot of the quality of life and length of life is returning mitochondrial function, you know, not to super mitochondria but to more of a balanced, you know, recovered mitochondria.
• 43:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So there's a lot of IVs we do with, you know, with that in mind.
• 43:48
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So it's, you know, if you would ask me this question 30 years ago it would have been well, high dose vitamin C and you know, I might have had A couple other in miscarriage, mistletoe.
• 43:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Now it's like there's a so many more right patient in front of you where they're at and seeing what they need.
• 44:04
  Dr. Paul Anderson: There's a lot of options available.
• 44:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: That's what's been amazing and just that you've been teaching this and doing this for so long.
• 44:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I want to shift in our last few moments to a slightly different bent or question here, and that is you've obviously seen a lot of cancer patients, and I'm assuming because of where you're at.
• 44:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: What I always see the patients is it's often they wait till they're stage four, end stage to go seek out alternatives because the conventional system has so, like, made them afraid of anything else.
• 44:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Now, certainly other.
• 44:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Some people don't, but often you're seeing these later stage or more complex or more like people who have no hope other places.
• 44:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But psychologically, what are some of the traits or things that you've seen in those people who you're like, wow, you were given six months and you had six years.
• 44:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Or the patterns.
• 44:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Is there any patterns in thinking or being or living or purpose or meaning, any themes that you see among those that survive against all odds?
• 44:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Short answer is yes.
• 45:06
  Dr. Paul Anderson: One of the books about cancer I wrote is called the Journey From Diagnosis to Empowerment.
• 45:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And what I was only marginally aware of when I started to write the book is that there is a respectable body of medical research about patient empowerment.
• 45:31
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's associated with better.
• 45:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Better response to pain management, drugs, better response to all sorts of things, and of course, quality of life and everything else.
• 45:42
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So it's a little bit of a complex thing of getting, you know, because I've never met a person in all the cancer patients I've seen that wanted cancer.
• 45:49
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Nobody wants that diagnosis.
• 45:52
  Dr. Paul Anderson: There's probably someone out there, but I've never met them.
• 45:55
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And going from the shock of that and what that does to you internally and which does affect your immune system, to finding a way to not ignore it, but to actually be, you know, if this is here, I'm going to be the most empowered patient I can be.
• 46:11
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And it gives you agency, it gives you all sorts of things, you know, so for one person that might look, you know, like one group of attributes, and for another person, it may look totally different because, you know, we all have different ways to get there.
• 46:27
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But I think finding a way to go from a horrific diagnosis to be saying, okay, diagnosis is there.
• 46:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I can still be as empowered as I can and be a person, you know, who also has Cancer.
• 46:42
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I'm not my cancer diagnosis, essentially.
• 46:46
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I have all sorts of, you know, patient stories of, you know, the.
• 46:51
  Dr. Paul Anderson: A really good embodiment is a lady, she came into the research center.
• 46:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: She was 83.
• 47:00
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They, she thought she was going to get a Coley, get her, you know, gallbladder taken out.
• 47:07
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They got in there and it was like, oh, you know, I have a gallbladder problem.
• 47:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You have, you know, abdomen wide mats.
• 47:13
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So she had stage four cancer.
• 47:16
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so, you know, they got out and oncologist said, here's your problem.
• 47:20
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And the oncologist said, I can't treat you because of your age.
• 47:25
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And, you know, I would kill you if I give you standard of care.
• 47:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And they said, but there's this integrative oncology, you know, research going on.
• 47:34
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Maybe talk to those folks.
• 47:36
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And it was, you know, so she comes in and had been healthy her whole life.
• 47:41
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So she made it to 83, really with no medical conditions.
• 47:46
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so we started to work with her and she didn't.
• 47:50
  Dr. Paul Anderson: They got to choose what integrative things they wanted.
• 47:53
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Most people chose everything.
• 47:55
  Dr. Paul Anderson: She, she said, you know, I'm 83, I kind of have a handle on my diet.
• 47:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And she'd been healthy and all that, so she just wanted to do IVs.
• 48:04
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So we started to do IVs.
• 48:05
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And she was having all of these gallbladder, like, pain because of the compression from the metastases.
• 48:12
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And about eight weeks in, she came in and she says, you know, I haven't had any digestive or abdominal symptoms for at least two weeks.
• 48:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So we kept going and we got her scanned again, and there was just as much cancer as there was in the beginning, but it all gone to sleep, essentially.
• 48:32
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, she had stage four cancer.
• 48:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So her doctor, the oncologist said, look, I can't give you chemo and you won't be here, you know, for your next birthday.
• 48:45
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Well, she hit that birthday.
• 48:47
  Dr. Paul Anderson: She sent him a card, said, I'm still alive.
• 48:51
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We celebrated her 93rd birthday in the IV Center.
• 48:57
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Now she was down to just maintenance.
• 48:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: She was coming in about every, you know, seven or eight weeks.
• 49:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But she had kept the cancer completely asleep.
• 49:06
  Dr. Paul Anderson: She was full of cancer.
• 49:07
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It just wasn't doing anything.
• 49:08
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And that's what she was doing.
• 49:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But she also had this.
• 49:12
  Dr. Paul Anderson: She started empowered.
• 49:14
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Like she didn't even believe them when they said, you're not going to be alive next year.
• 49:18
  Dr. Paul Anderson: She said, well, none of us know that, you know, and to the point that she got so much healthier.
• 49:26
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I had to Tell her she couldn't, you know, be out on ladders.
• 49:29
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And I said, you.
• 49:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I don't want you to die breaking your neck, you know, just because you feel so good, you know, so.
• 49:35
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So it's, you know, and there's different flavors of that.
• 49:39
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But I. I do think.
• 49:40
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And of course, you know, we've all seen people where they were super empowered and they did everything right.
• 49:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You know, you get a.
• 49:46
  Dr. Paul Anderson: You get a really aggressive cancer, there's not much you can do.
• 49:49
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But I do think that the outcomes.
• 49:52
  Dr. Paul Anderson: If I was gonna weigh it one side or the other, I would take my chances with empowerment and.
• 49:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And having agency over myself, you know, and being informed.
• 50:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Wow.
• 50:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I. I couldn't agree more.
• 50:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: In my own small experience almost 20 years ago, there was a real point in the very beginning where I just had this insight, and I. I knew I wasn't going to die.
• 50:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And that from that moment on, I just thought, okay, this sucks.
• 50:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It's not fun.
• 50:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I went through chemo, radiation.
• 50:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It was horrible.
• 50:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But what am I here to learn?
• 50:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Like, there's something in here.
• 50:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And of course, now, looking back, it's one of the best things medically that ever happened.
• 50:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Because the training I got as a patient was.
• 50:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You could never get that in medical school.
• 50:33
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Oh, no.
• 50:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And then I love the identity quote from you because I think that's also a piece even now.
• 50:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You know, I am a breast cancer survivor, but sometimes if people ask me, I know the story, I can tell it's true.
• 50:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: But I don't even.
• 50:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It's almost like, oh, yeah, I did have cancer.
• 50:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: There's no identity with it at all.
• 50:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Like, no part of me whatsoever is.
• 50:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I don't even like the word cancer survivor.
• 50:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Because it's like, that's not me.
• 50:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I mean, yeah, it's almost like a faded shadow of something I experienced, but it has nothing to do.
• 51:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I think that's really important.
• 51:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: As people, if they identify with their illness, then sometimes it's hard to get them well because they're so stuck on who they are in relation to what they have.
• 51:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Dr. Anderson, this has been so fun.
• 51:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I could talk to you another hour.
• 51:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It's so.
• 51:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You're so full of wisdom, and I'm so grateful for all the ways you've taught many other practitioners and bring your information to.
• 51:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: To the world.
• 51:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: If people want to find out more about your conferences, tell us where we can find you.
• 51:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And what do you have upcoming?
• 51:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Any events this fall?
• 51:30
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 51:31
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So after trying to list all my websites on all the interviews.
• 51:38
  Dr. Paul Anderson: We made a hub website.
• 51:40
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And so you can go there.
• 51:42
  Dr. Paul Anderson: If you're a patient, you can go to the patient stuff.
• 51:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: If you're practitioner, you can go to the other places.
• 51:46
  Dr. Paul Anderson: It's just dra.
• 51:48
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Now.coM-R-A-N-O-W.com and that'll take you to all the.
• 51:53
  Dr. Paul Anderson: I have a YouTube channel and books.
• 51:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I totally get it.
• 51:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Right.
• 51:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: You're just like I wish one.
• 51:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Should I give.
• 51:58
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Right.
• 51:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Yeah.
• 51:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So just that one takes you to everybody.
• 52:03
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then for Practitioners Monthly, I do an online cme which again you can find out on there.
• 52:10
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And then twice a year we have Advanced Applications in Medical Practice, which is a mixed group of healthcare practitioners of any type as long as you're licensed.
• 52:24
  Dr. Paul Anderson: But all are integrative and naturopathically minded.
• 52:28
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And we do a science based update, clinical update twice a year.
• 52:33
  Dr. Paul Anderson: In the fall we're doing one that's focused on chronic illness and the intersection of chronic infections and toxicity.
• 52:44
  Dr. Paul Anderson: Remember, those are the first two we talked about.
• 52:47
  Dr. Paul Anderson: So we're kind of bringing some experts in to talk about how those fit together, how to pull them apart in a case and all of that.
• 52:55
  Dr. Paul Anderson: That's in the beginning.
• 52:56
  Dr. Paul Anderson: First weekend in October in Arizona.
• 52:59
  Dr. Paul Anderson: And again, that link and information are there on my hub website.
• 53:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Perfect.
• 53:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And if you're driving or doing something that takes your concentration down, worry.
• 53:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It's all in the show notes.
• 53:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I'll make sure and have it there.
• 53:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Dr. Anderson, what a pleasure and thank you for all the work you've put into the world.
• 53:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I really enjoyed talking to you today.
• 53:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: Hey guys, hope you enjoyed that great episode with Dr. Paul Anderson.
• 53:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: He's been a leader in the naturopathic world of integrative oncology and so full of information that's helpful.
• 53:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: I could have talked to him for another hour.
• 53:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: If you haven't yet liked or subscribed on YouTube, please do that right now.
• 53:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: It helps us reach more people.
• 53:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: If you're any other platform, would you please stop by and leave us a review?
• 53:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: We really appreciate that.
• 53:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And as you know, you can find new episodes of Resiliency Radio here every single week.
• 53:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And I'll see you again next week for a new episode.
• 53:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan: And until then, make it a great day.